SPEAKER_00 0:06

Hello everyone, welcome back to Have You Heard. It is the final Monday in June, which sadly means that we have come to our final episode of the Have You Heard June Dairy Month podcast series. I want to thank everyone who tuned in to this series. Your support meant the world to me, and it also meant the world to the dairy farmers who got to share their perspective, share their world, share their life with you in a way that many dairy farmers have not gotten a chance to. And so once again, thank you for listening. Thank you for tuning in to have you heard. But folks, we are not done yet. We got one more episode left, and it's quite an appropriate one to end on as we are speaking today with a producer all the way out east in Montana. Montana being one of the smaller dairy states in the country, one of the smallest states represented by the Northwest Dairy Association co-op. In fact, we only have five dairy farms out there, and Doug Camerman's farm in Manhattan, Montana, Dairyland, happens to be one of those five. That fact made this conversation a particularly unique one, and I hope you'll enjoy it. It's our last episode of Have You Heard, and it starts right now. Hello everyone, and welcome back to the fifth and final episode of this special five-part June Dairy Month series presented and brought to you by Dairy Gold and the Northwest Dairy Association. Today, on this final episode, last but not least, we are speaking with one of our producers from Montana, which is a smaller state represented in our co-op, but important nonetheless. Today we're talking with Doug Camerman of Derryland Farms. Uh, Doug, first of all, did I say your last name correctly?

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Everything is perfect so far.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Okay, perfect. How are you doing today, sir?

SPEAKER_02 2:10

I'm well. Beautiful day in Montana here. So we are enjoying the nice weather and looking for a little more rain, hopefully, going forward.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah, it's a very nice day here. I think me and you might have a differing mindset on that. I would prefer no rain, but I'm sure that for you, rain is quite an important uh part of dairying. So let's start the conversation. Can you talk to me a little bit about uh how you got started in dairying and sort of the origins of Dairyland Farm in particular?

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Uh yeah, my my dad, um, well, I initially my grandpa started with just a few cows way back in the 1960s. Then my dad took over and um expanded to about oh, 40 cows, and then about 10 years later built a little larger facility which housed about 120 cows. And we built it or bought another dairy which had another 120 cows, and then in 2007 we um combined all those plus added a number of cows, so we're currently milking about 650. And um, so it's a general generational farm as much as anything, I guess. And um, it is also has the acres that we farm right contiguous to the dairy itself.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

So, how long ago was Dairyland started and did it always have the name Dairyland?

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Dairyland Farms itself started from a sole proprietorship of my dad in 1980. They rolled it into a corporation, which became Dairyland Farms, where a couple other brothers of my dad became involved, and now the next generation is here as well as a following generation after us.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Perfect. And so we briefly talked right before recording about the fact that you and your farm are in the Manhattan region, which for folks who aren't familiar, I'm not talking about Manhattan, New York. I am talking about Manhattan, Montana. The fun fact about Montana is that it represents the smallest amount of farms in our co-op, and it's actually one of the smaller dairy-producing states in general. Can you talk to me a little bit about what dairying is like in the Montana region and if it's tiny dairy footprint comparatively to other larger regions, if that is an advantage or a disadvantage in your eyes?

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Well, I think there's probably advantages and disadvantages. Certainly the you know, advantages is less competition for feed, you know, so our feed prices are probably um comparatively lower, at least for some for some commodities. The big disadvantage would be, you know, your suppliers and stuff are limited because there's just not that many of us to serve. So some of them come out of Idaho and that kind of thing. So as far as having close-by suppliers, it's a little bit of a disadvantage. Also, you know, we're always a little bit apprehensive about the future, a little bit for dairying. Simply there has to be a critical mass to make it even worth operating in Montana. And yeah, and that they're pulling milk up out of Idaho right now to help fill our class one needs. Well, I should say our needs for the Costco business is what it primarily is coming up out of Idaho. And we're not able to provide that much out of Montana itself right now. So I guess we're always a little bit uh concerned that the nearby plant remains viable, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

What town is the nearby plant in?

SPEAKER_02 5:20

It's in Bozeman.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Bozeman, gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Yeah, 15 to 20 mile hull from our farm is all it is.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Why do you think that dairy has been shrinking in a state like Montana comparative? And I don't know if dairy as an industry is rising in Idaho or if it's kind of shrinking across the board everywhere. But why in particular do you think Montana is seeing such a little volume of dairy industry?

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Well, Idaho is growing. You know, it's one of the biggest growth states for dairy, I think. Montana, on the other hand, we implemented a quota system back in. Yeah, don't quote me on the year on this. I want to say mid-80s, something like that. And that I think has actually helped kind of hold the supply down for better or for worse. It's basically at the time the thought was, you know, we want to keep more class one sales and you know, stay, we didn't have a cheese plant in the state or anything to go with excess milk, which is not even an issue anymore because class one eats up all of our all of our supply. Yeah, other than that, you know, and the quota system, historically, it was kind of a varying margin between quota and non-quota milk, and now it's a set dollar fifty between quota and non-quota, and you can buy quota for next to nothing. So if somebody wanted to start in Montana, the entry barriers are not basically non-existent. I mean, you could buy that quota up, there's tons available and lots of guys willing to sell it. We're sitting on more than we can use actually, just kind of as a place for dairies that went out of business. They're allowed to transfer that quota and it can just kind of sit there indefinitely. So I think the quota was probably initially a reason why the growth has been stifled, but I don't know. You know, I can't really put a finger on why it hasn't increased now that the entry or bear entry barriers are uh I'll just say non-existent, and the feed supply is fairly there's a good supply around here, and there's and feed seem to be competitive with everybody else I've talked to, too. So I I really think that Montana would be a very good potential growth spot for dairy. And I've heard, you know, through the grapevine here and there that some different people have been looking into the area and nobody's made the jump yet. Just our, you know, the 14,000 cows or whatever we have in the state, it would take just one or two big dairies to double the supply of our state, you know, overnight.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Right. Right. I guess for in your perspective, being a dairy farmer in Montana, is that something that you would welcome uh an explosion of dairy in that region? Or do you enjoy kind of being a big player in a small pond, so to speak?

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Yeah, you know, I think it'd be very welcome to have more dairies come up here. I, you know, certainly from the feed suppliers perspective. I mean, there's a lot of hay and a lot of grain farmers around here that would love to see dairies come in, you know, as another potential market for their feed. That would uh obviously add a little bit of competition for us. You know, right now we're in the sweet spot where we're one of the only players around. So I mean for better or for worse, it's um it does play pretty well into our own hand. But I think other than that little selfish reason, it would be a thing, some expansion simply because it'd make it more competitive for um suppliers up here. Yeah, on a number of different flows, some more dairy would be a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

So on that note, and I might have to double check my facts here. You might you might know, and you can correct me. I believe there are about five dairy farms that represent the NDA co-op in Montana. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Currently, I think that's shrinking to four here very soon.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Okay. Are are you particularly close with any of the other farms within the NDA co-op? I imagine. Dairy there in Montana is already a pretty tight-knit community. Is it even tighter within the confines of the Northwest Dairy Association?

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Yeah, you know, I have I have we have a very good working relationship with all the dairies around here, you know, consider them friends, and and you know, it's yeah, there's just not much that we really do together. But, you know, yeah, yeah. I think there's pretty good blood between everybody. And you know, geographically, we're actually the few dairies that are left are quite close too. So yeah, it's it's a good little community, but a very small and shrinking one, which I think has room for potential growth.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Let's move the conversation to the co-op. How how long has Dairy Land been an NDA member and has it been or has it been an NDA member since its inception?

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Yeah, we we merged with Greater Dairy Gold back in. You might want to check dates on this. I want to say 20 or 9 ever since then. Now, or no, wait, it was it was before that. Uh anyway, you can look up the dates on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Early 2000s is when we merged with Dairy Gold. You know, initially we were a dairy gold producer back in the 70s and 80s. We were more of kind of like a satellite company. I'm not exactly, I was too young to even know exactly how that worked. Then we did split from Dairy Gold and became country classics for roughly 15 years or so and then merged again with Greater Dairy Gold in the early 2000s.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Can you talk a little bit about the role that NDA has to the producers? And I guess specifically, what does NDA and Dairy Gold do for members that it might be hard for an independent dairy farm? And you can talk about the advantages and disadvantages to that.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Yeah, you know, there was definitely some conflict and tension when we decided to merge with Dairygold back as um, let's say 20 years ago. And um, I think the the advantages that I see as a secure market, more of a secure market than a little um regional co-op would have. A regional co-op, you're really kind of beholden to the smaller market players. And then Costco at the time, before we merged with Dairy Gold, was about roughly, I think, 60 to 70 percent of our business. So we always kind of felt like, well, you know, Costco pulls the rug out from underneath us, we're in a really bad way. Whereas dairy larger dairy gold has other markets and other options. And obviously they've had a good continuing relationship with Costco, so that's mainly where most of our milk through our plant does go to a Costco bottle. So that's the advantage, disadvantage, you know, there's less local control. You know, we um we started out with two board members when we first merged. We've granted there were more farms back then, too. But that was a temporary, just I think a transitional thing that they had for the first year. And then that was paired back to one. And now we have no board members that are specifically in the Montana region. We are currently lumped in with eastern Idaho. Dave Sil is our director. And yeah, I mean, it's good good people down there too. I don't know them like I would know the Montana farmers. There's definitely a little bit of a disconnect and and a distance there that we had before we'd enjoyed, you know, our own board member, which was a little bit more specifically representing us.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Yeah, they're kind of tuned more into the specific challenges Montana dairy farmers might face compared to Idaho, I imagine.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

One thing in Montana, I don't know if you're aware, but we have a state order versus a federal order. So out here, the state sets the price and everything. And Dave Lewis did a really good job. He was our board member for for years, and you know, he had a pretty good pulse on what was going on in the state order in Helena, Helena, Montana, where we, you know, that was all set. I mean, he was able to, you know, share that knowledge with the board and with Greater Dairy Gold is the subtle nuances between the state and the federal order, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

So I'm I'm actually glad that you brought that up. I was not aware that there weren't any board members representing Montana. I probably wasn't entirely aware that board members represent different regions uh in that specific way. So it's interesting to hear that Montana, albeit it might be small, it's interesting to hear that there isn't a specific representative on the board. If there was representation like that, what what sort of things could be pushed and I guess what advantages come from that as opposed to having someone in a different part of the state be the one to be a voice for the the the few dairy farmers in Montana?

SPEAKER_02 13:11

I would expect the guy out of eastern Idaho, you know, that for one thing, there's more dairies down there and that's where he's from. I would expect him to, you know, primarily represent that area. Whereas the Montana interests, you know, say the class one differential, that kind of thing. We could probably do it as a group of farmers too, through the state order. It's nothing saying we can't. Just that there is a slight disconnect between us and Greater Gary Gold in the communication of it, shall I say? You know, I think if you had a Montana representative, it might actually encourage more growth in Montana, knowing that, you know, we are represented and um have a specific voice on the Dairy Gold board. So it's some dairy gold's been trying to pair back the numbers. And I do understand the reason for wanting to decrease the total number of board members simply from a cost standpoint, and the fact that Montana just we just are not that many, not that much milk and even fewer farmers. It's it's understandable, but a little bit unfortunate in the producers around here. We did kind of voice our opinion that we'd sure like to have some local representation as far as things that we could push for in Montana. I mean, I don't know. It'd be more of I think more than pushing for things is having, you know, inside knowledge and and just a more intimate uh knowledge of what's going on at Dairy Gold itself and yeah what the feelings are as far as Montana goes and and our little plant here. But I am able to get information from other board members who've been very open and very accommodating too. So I'm I'm not certainly this isn't a slight on them.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Yeah, that's it. That's interesting you say that. I've so I maybe this is a good representation of what you're talking about, but I go to a lot of farms in my job uh as a content producer. I I speak with a lot of farmers and shoot stuff at a lot of farms. And I also have actually never been out to Montana for a lot of the reasons you're talking about, how it's smaller, and of course the travel expenses kind of double if we're talking about driving or flying there.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

He's away from everything else, it is.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Yeah, yeah. I was actually talking to an NDA field rep, Monty McGuinness, and I correct again. Correct me if I'm wrong. Is he your NDA field rep out there as well as Idaho?

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Yes, he is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Yeah, and and so I've I've talked to him and he he talks about being able to get out to Montana maybe once a month, and I it may even be less than once a month. I'm not entirely sure. But whereas being in Idaho, he obviously can get out to those farms. It's interesting that you talk about wishing you had more insight as to what's going on at Dairy Gold. Do you feel sometimes disconnected from Dairy Gold itself compared to maybe some of the other uh producers who are closer to the Seattle or Washington region, um, or even Idaho or Oregon?

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Yeah, I do. You know, I you do you feel like you're you're kind of out on the on the periphery a little bit here. When we had Dave on the board, and I'd actually considered running for the board. It's I talked to Dave a couple times a month, you know, and he would fill me in on what's going on as much as you could, and you realize there's some things that are that are privilege information. But yeah, with him gone now, and that's partly on me too. I gotta I have to reach out to the other board members too, Dave Silva. Is yeah, I met him at our kitchen meeting, and yeah, I think he does a good job for the Eastern Idaho guys, and probably a good job for us. I I'm sure he's not as intimately informed or connected with the Montana markets or the state order is what Dave was. I don't mean I don't mean it as a complaint, but I it is yeah, it it it is a concern, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

Yeah, and I think that's fair. Let's switch gears a little bit to talking about the Montana region itself. Can you talk a little bit about what the climate is like up there in comparison to your closest neighbor, Idaho? And is Bozeman or where you're at? Is that closer to northern Idaho or southern Idaho? I'm not entirely sure.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Oh, yeah, we'd be closer to southern southern Idaho. We are, you know where Yellowstone Park is.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Okay, in relation that that'd be about 90 miles straight south of Bozeman.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Gotcha. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

So it's way on the eastern tip of Idaho, or I mean kind of the where Montana and Idaho and Wyoming meet there. So yeah, we're much closer to Idaho.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

I was curious if it's a drier climate like uh southern Iowa, like a lot of southern Idaho is.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Yeah, I don't, we're not, they don't call us high desert, kind of like the Boise area or the, you know, I I'm not really familiar with all of Idaho, but I know that Boise area, you know, even east of there, a little bit considered high desert. And we we have, I think, somewhat more moisture. We depend a lot on irrigation here. We and the strict stream flows out of our out of our gallant uh the gallanton range up there. We what we water out of the Gallanton River and there's no dam or anything. So as soon as the river drops low enough, your water's cut off. But you know, we're very blessed to have that water supply and we we we have good yields. A shorter growing season for sure. We're at about 5,000 feet here. That being said, you know, we have early and late frost or late and early frost, so you contend with that. And probably a significant reason for dairy not growing it is the harsh winters that we can have. This winter's probably been the mildest that I can ever remember. This past one. We had a couple different days where we hit below zero, but just barely. But it's not common. Most most winters, I figure a couple days to a week of, you know, 20 to 30 below zero. That's difficult dairy weather, is what that is.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

It definitely doesn't really get below zero around this part in western Washington. So hearing that, I imagine like what are the challenges to having to dairy in below zero temperatures? Is like cow care, does that differ at all?

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Well, I think one of the main uh it's probably an additional cost too to set in facilities up. You need you have to be set up for it, right? We can kind of button everything down and enclose everything in a in a big shed. And you know, if it holds the warmth, the cows are actually extremely resilient and they handle the very, very cold really well, actually. Sometimes, especially if they're exposed at all to the outdoors and stuff, you'll have frozen teats and that kind of stuff on the younger animals. But where where we're able to enclose them, it's been a very minimal problem. But the biggest challenge is the calves because calves, it's really tough on them when it gets that cold. You know, it'll affect their lungs, you lose some. Um, yeah, you just all you can do is just bed them up like crazy and throw jackets and that kind of thing. So you'll have a definitely a higher death loss when you have tougher winters.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Is there a lot of challenge in feed too? Is does that require a lot of stockpiling before the winter, or what does that look like?

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Yeah, I don't think it's in a whole lot different than Washington and Idaho would be. You know, like we get three cuttings of hay out here and to show you we can do a short day corn. So yeah, we you know, we have silage bunks that we stock it, pile it in, and then we also do some dry bale, have to bring in most of our grain corn and that kind of thing from either eastern Montana or the Dakotas. Our growing season here just isn't long enough to um do grain corn. I guess I shouldn't say that. Some guys try it and and do it. But uh as a as a as a general rule, it's uh silage corn works, but um, it's a very short day corn.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

What about the other parts of Montana? Are those particularly harder to to have like a dairy farm? Are you kind of in the perfect area within that state to do this sort of thing?

SPEAKER_02 20:12

I think a lot of Montana would be similar to what our we are. Where Dave Lewis was, he's was on the west side over kind of just south of Missoula. Apparently the climate is at least marginally milder there. You know, he they usually have for at least 10 to 15 degrees warmer than we were on the coldest days. So probably a little milder over there. Um, eastern Montana. Yeah, then you're dealing with the wind and that kind of thing. And then you can also get in, I think Billings area, you could it'd be very similar to this. So I you know, I think there's a lot of opportunity in area here where dairy would work. It's just you better set up your facilities to be ready for it. You know, I it blows me away when I hear of people in western Washington that have above ground water lines or something like that. I mean, it's something you don't you wouldn't even consider.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

So with the knowledge that that dairy is maybe not the largest ag industry in Montana, do you have any insight as to what is and if that affects the dairy industry at all?

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Oh, the largest largest ag thing here would have to either be beef or maybe like wheat, dryland wheat. Those would be the two pigments. There's also a lot of hay that's grown in Montana. Around here, too, we're able to get three good cuttings because we can put water on it. But any dry land hay, the climate overall is dry enough where, you know, I think it's very dependent on on moisture as to what they as far as yields and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Okay, so let's switch gears here a little bit. Let's talk about your upbringing and path into dairy. You essentially grew up within the dairy industry. Was that correct? Did I hear that right at the beginning?

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Ever since the day, yeah, my dad was dairying. Since the day I was born, I did I went off to college and graduated from college with a business degree. Worked away from the farm for a couple of years just for a different experience. Met my wife. So I um she's standing here. But anyway, but anyway, um, yeah, I went to Michigan, graduated out there, and then she uh she was good enough to move back to Montana with me. And then we raised our five kids out here. Yeah, I just I've always loved working outdoors. I don't know, I just kind of like the freedom of it and the variety and the work family comes with its own challenges sometimes, but overall has been a real blessing.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

And so would you say dairy has always kind of been the end game for you or like North Star, even when you were going through business school, did you always envision yourself coming back into dairy?

SPEAKER_02 22:35

That is a good question. Um somebody who kind of just flies by the seat of my pants a little bit and does after working in the work-a-day world for a little while. I um I realized how much I do enjoy the outside and dairying and working with family. So though those were certainly things that pulled me back. You know, at the time too, if we hadn't expanded the dairy back in the early 2000s, I have a feeling maybe we just would have closed the old ones up and just went to like beef farming or, you know, farming or land for cash crops, depending, but dairy is one of those things that has more of an income stream where you can bring more family members on, not farming a huge number of acres.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Were there any transferable skills between whatever you were doing before coming back to the dairy and now did you bring over any applicable business skills, social skills, what have you? Did anything like that transfer into getting back into the dairy world?

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Yeah, actually it had a significant effect, I'll say. I worked in retail for a couple of years, interestingly, and managed in retail, and it gave me a huge appreciation for good employees. You know, I'm on the farm, it was always family, and maybe one or two out outside hired guys. And I think sometimes we took for granted just, you know, the reliability of these guys. They always seen 90% of success is showing up, and we had guys that did that, and we and we've been very blessed to have even now, you know, good people to show up and we we try to treat them well so they um want to stick around. So that would probably be the biggest thing is I just saw people just don't take employment and showing up on time or showing up at all very seriously, and the fact that we have these employees, it it certainly gives me an appreciation for that. And, you know, just the financial side of things, you know, I I was able to deal with the books and stuff in retail. And it's, you know, books are books, they're definitely different on a farm than they would be, but there's there's certain um things which are transferable there.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

I'm I'm curious, you got back into dairy. What is your kind of role on the dairy farm? I understand that there's a lot of brothers or other family members who work. So what does like a day on the farm look like for you?

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Oh, between my my younger brother and myself, we do almost all the managing. You know, what we'll align employees, we will figure out what there is for the day. My nephew has come on, and my son is kind of coming on now too, and they're starting to, you know, step into that role a little bit. Just the day-to-day things need to be lined out, problems. My my other brother came in, he was a mechanic, and this is a third brother, and um, he's he's not a managing partner right now, but he's he's also here, you know, and we line him up with mechanic duties and just the day-to-day dairy duties need to be done. And then as far as you know, dealing with employees, employee conflicts, payroll, that kind of stuff, the book books and that kind of stuff is deal with a lot of um a lot of manual work too. I do a ton of manual work yet.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

So let's talk a little bit about, I guess, a side of dairy that a lot of people listening may not know about, which is kind of the investment into technology and science, whether it's for sustainability or efficiency. How much do you know about any of the technological investments that are happening on Dairyland farm?

SPEAKER_02 25:44

In what respect? Uh like are you talking about like cow technology as far as identification and all that kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Well, for instance, uh a few of the farmers I've talked with have talked about things like AI. Some of them have mentioned like cow collars that'll give you updates on like cow health the instant there's like a flag or something. Is dairy land getting into any of that sort of thing?

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Yeah, you know, when we set this dairy back up in the early 2000s, we already had identification and pedometers and all of that stuff on our couch. We've we've had that for over 20 years now, so it's not not very new technology, you know. No, okay, gosh. Certainly haven't started the robotic thing at all yet. And I know that's uh up and cut, well, yeah, a pretty significant trend, especially it seems like on smaller to mid-sized farms. Yeah, I mean, you know, even on the farming part, we use like GPS, and uh we also have uh I think one of our best investments, I this might be a little bit off of the beaten track, but we um just bought all of our own manure equipment. So we have a mile and a half of hose, which we take from the lagoon and we're able to inject that right into the soil and then and is basically capture all that nitrogen. So it's been a huge benefit as far as you know, the crops we're able to raise in our bushels per acre and that kind of thing. But I'm yeah, I'm not saying that's cutting-edge technology, but it's it's yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

I guess what is the breakdown of the importance of sustainability processes on a farm in terms of being good stewards of the land and then like the economic benefit. Is there a breakdown that like the average like dairy farmer has to consider, or is it more of an individualized thing? Like for you, what is that breakdown of trying to be a good steward while also like realizing that it is a for-profit business and that you need to make a profit at the end of the day on these sort of investments?

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Yeah, well, I mean, profit is the bottom line. You know, if we don't get that, we don't stay in business. You know, we're a family farm. I think different things work for different dairies, and I'm sure you've heard this in different podcasts too. Works for us as our land is all kind of surrounds the dairy. So what we we're minimizing shipping costs as far as bringing in forages. Like I said, that manure system and stuff too. You know, we're we're not running up and down, we're just able to pump that manure out to the fields. So it's just the great circle of life there, a little bit. We always have the manure, we're able to make a good crop off of the manure, try to minimize the costs in doing it. We haven't had to buy commercial fertilizer for the last 20 years. That's huge savings, especially on a year like this year where, well, fuel prices are up, so fertilizer prices are up. I consider that, you know, we might each have a different definition of what's sustainable or what we would prioritize as being sustainable. The fact that we're able to, you know, source uh most of our feed locally, and then we're able to get manure and turn that back into a fertilizer. I see that as and and also using the manure versus commercial fertilizer, we have very hot healthy soil. And they always say earthworms are kind of a, I don't know, shall we say a canary in the coal mine? If you have a lot of those, that's a good thing. And they're what you go out at night, they're just all over the place. So in fact, you put the manure out there, it makes for healthy soil, good crops, and and they're all yeah, you have a great circle of life. They're kind of a little bit. But I don't know, like other sustainability, I I'd be curious, you know, what can be such a they can be a bit of a hot button word for sure. Yeah, and then and we all have perhaps a different definition of what sustainable is. I you know, we we do use chemicals for weed control and that kind of thing. Then you say, well, sustainable. Some people would say, well, organic is more sustainable, and I I would probably take issue with that, where they can't use those tools, and we can, and I think we can make a really good product using them.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

So you so you you just mentioned something about organic. I've heard this from a few farmers about the organic, non-organic differences. Like what what kind of differences are those, and are they as significant as maybe the greater population feels? Is is it that significant?

SPEAKER_02 29:38

I would say extremely no. I don't think that the difference in the products are significant. I really don't. Especially in a product like milk that comes through the cow. I think organic milk. I, you know, I've talked to plenty of people who drink organic milk, and I don't discourage them. The way I always put it, I say you're just paying way too much for your milk.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

I can get you the same product for half the price that's nutritionally identical. We'll have some grass fed, maybe there's some different proteins that are just slightly different. But uh for all intents and purposes, I think the products from a non-organic milk to an organic milk are identical product. Certainly not worth the extra cost. And, you know, I especially I think on a farm like ours, we're probably relatively close to organic in a lot of ways with a non-commercial fertilizer. Yeah, I you know, I know Roundup is a huge hot button topic right now. You know, it's people um really think that Roundup is such a terrible thing. And then I've heard, well, it's one of the more innocuous chemicals out there, really, for but um, as far as finding that in a milk supply, I just don't believe it should be an issue or is an issue. So I I have no problem with organic farmers, and I certainly do not begrudge them going after that extra dollar. The only thing I would caution is I don't think they should do that by disparaging other milk. Because I think that if you start disparaging other milk, pretty soon the whole industry can get a black eye.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

What what sort of role do you think the government plays in propping up any industry? But the less of a hand they have in sort of the dairy industry or any agriculture industry, the better, or or do you think that there needs to be a healthy balance?

SPEAKER_02 31:10

I tend to be very small government. I would rather um I would rather stuff be as under as much local control as possible. And I think that balance gets out of whack. I think the feds have way too much power over farm. Overall, basically, I'd like to keep it as local as possible. That the government probably has a role. Sometimes I think it gets like everything else, it can just get bloated and way bigger than it needs to be. So I keep the federal role at as much of a minimum as possible, is where I would come in.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

All right. Looks like we have about 10 minutes, so I'm gonna transition into something more lighter now. Do you have children? Do you mind me asking?

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Or do I have five of them?

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Is it your hope that they also take an interest to get into the dairy industry, or are you more hands-off with that kind of thing?

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Well, my kids are all grown.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Oh, gotcha. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

They're all 23, is the youngest one. My oldest is 28, and he's actually helping on the dairy right now. Much appreciate his help. I want that opportunity to be available for him, but I by no means want to push him in that direction. If it's something he wants to do and realizes what comes with it, I am very good with him coming on board. I also have four daughters, one which is married and she's an accountant, married to an engineer. So I don't think they're going to be coming back to the dairy. The other girls just kind of remains to be seen, perhaps who they marry, or maybe if they have the desire themselves to come back or something like that. I I like to have the option there for them, but I certainly don't want to pressure anybody in that direction.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

In my research for this interview, I saw a couple news articles around like the mid-2010s talking about this is kind of funny, talking about how there was a not insignificant amount of people who thought that chocolate milk came from, like came directly as chocolate milk from dairy cows. And I saw that you spoke on this a little bit with some of the news stations. How important do you think it is for there to be more knowledge on not just like the dairy industry in general, but like how these things are are actually made? Do you see that as an issue that there could be a non-insignificant amount of people who think that chocolate milk is like a natural thing that comes from from dairy cows?

SPEAKER_02 33:16

I I don't see it as being a huge issue, really. It's common from anything else to me. Realizing where their their any food that they consume comes from, I think is a good thing to be more and more connected. And I think it's I think that's a big driver behind this whole Maha movement thing a little bit. You know, people want to know where their food comes. I think consumers are going more and more wanting natural products. And I think that's also accounts somewhat for the resurgence in HTST milk. I mean, it's not um raw milk, but it's has a very few things done to it between the the cow and the and the cooler and this grocery store. I think that's a good thing. I think people um want to get back to the basics on their nutrition and and want to, I don't know, we could get into a whole different problems perhaps with people who uh think they're more knowledgeable than they are on things and striking that balance between wanting them to be knowledgeable, but also realizing that there are experts out there who are striving to make a good product.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

You know, that was a big reason that we created this five-part series was to hopefully get people more knowledgeable about not just the dairy industry, but like how dairy gold works and like what a co-op is, and getting people to understand that like there might be this perception that we're like, you know, big milk essentially, that we're just a co-op that's made up of farms of every shape and sizes around the Northwest region. What are some other ways that you think could be useful for maybe the individual dairy farmer or the dairy industry at large to teach people more about the way that this industry works? Do you think things like farm tours or maybe even, you know, some sort of curriculum-based thing in schools, do you think that would help? Or do you think that people just need to come to that knowledge on their own?

SPEAKER_02 34:58

Oh, you know, the farm tour thing is always good. It can be a lot sometimes, I'll just put it that way. You know, I we do quite a few farm tours. Actually, my brother Nelson does a majority of the farm tours. We have the um local business chapter come around, Chamber of Commerce come around, and then we have a lot of kids' groups and that kind of thing come around. So I think that's that's a good tool. The internet has made everybody experts, right? I think that if we as farmers can, you know, a lot on a person-to-person basis, you know, I even back when I know they had farmers stand in stores by the milk cases when they were doing promotions and that kind of thing, and people would talk to them and that kind of thing. The opportunity we have to connect with the customer one-on-one, or, you know, hopefully skirt around the internet thing because the internet is so full of disinformation and misinformation, you know, yeah, yeah. That um I think if we can get our voice out there in any way, shape, or form is a good thing. Now, I'm not sure I know the best way to do that. I I think it's more people, probably a lot of moms who reach out and want to research, you know, where their food comes from and that kind of thing. We could have a face of a farmer on there explaining. You can't, you sometimes you can overexplain too, but I mean, explain, you know, our part in the process, what we do to make an excellent product, I think is the best that I could hope for. But some of this, some marketing genius, I'm sure has a better idea out there.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

So yeah, and I, and you know, that's why I think something like this is important because it's an almost hour-long conversation with a dairy farmer talking about all things dairy. I mean, you can't really get much more uh to the core of things than that. So um, yeah, I agree. I think disconnecting can be good, but I also think trying to steer people towards real information from real people online is also just as important because I think at the end of the day, the internet's not going anywhere. And the best thing we can do is steer people and get as much real information from the people in these industries and doing the real work as we can.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

No, I I I think you're right over the target on that too. I just think, you know, stressing that we as farmers, it's in our best interest to make a quality product. And we want the best product for the consumer. So I I think they go hand in hand. And I think if you can put a face on it and just make people aware that, you know, so you got a 6,000 cow dairy out there, or you got a 60 cow dairy out there, they can both both make a really good product. It's something that I think everybody in the dairy industry is striving to do. If if you don't, before long, you're gonna run into other problems, such as you know, might be related to cattle health and that kind of thing. You know, you you put yourself out of business.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

So almost running out of time here. I I want one more question. If you had to speak with people who don't know anything about the dairy industry, something that you would like to like impart on them.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

It's kind of a it's kind of a broad question.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

Put a little more thought into that to come up with anything pithy or worth.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

No, honestly, I think I think the last conversation we had about getting people educated on this industry, I think that's as good of a mission statement as any, honestly. So uh we'll go with that.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

We all have you know the same goals. I think we have we have the goal to make a quality product, they have a goal to purchase a quality product. You know, our our mutual goals should meet there.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

I am 100% in agreement with you. Doug Cameron, thank you so much for uh joining us and talking about you and your dairy farm dairyland up in Montana. I hope this was educating for the people listening. And uh yeah, thanks for giving us time out of your very busy dairy farmer schedule.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Well, thank you for taking the time and putting the effort into it.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

And that is going to do it for our fifth and final episode of Have You Heard? A special June Dairy Month podcast series brought to you by Dairy Gold and the Northwest Dairy Association. Folks, I want to thank you once again for listening to this series. This series was brought about as a way to educate the people at home who might not know much about the dairy industry or about the day-to-day of a dairy farmer. And it was also created to highlight some of the over 200 dairy farmers in the Northwest Dairy Association co-op, and to hopefully give you a better understanding not only about the day-to-day lives of a dairy farmer, but also a better understanding of Dairy Gold, the Northwest Dairy Association co-op, and how all of these things interplay and work with each other, with the ultimate goal of bringing you, the listener, the consumer, some of the freshest and best-tasting dairy products in the world. It has been my pleasure to be your host for this five-part series. I hope my voice didn't great on you too much, and I hope the voices and the information of the dairy farmers that we highlighted in this series more than made up for having to listen to my voice. One final shout out to Shane Reed, Galen Smith, Ryan Vandersdel, Doug Camerman, and our Dairy Gold Chairman of the Board, Tim Kenzie, for joining us on this podcast series, for taking time out of their day to discuss their lives. And I want to thank you, the listener, for supporting this, listening to it, and hopefully recommending your friends and colleagues to listen to it as well. I am Mason Jordan, and I have been your host, and you have been listening to Have You Heard. Thank you, everyone, and maybe we'll see you next year.