A Lighthouse in the Dark Introduction - Michael Fishman

Welcome to A Lighthouse in the Dark

In this introduction episode Michael Fishman is interviewed by his business partner Michael Johnson to introduce the heart behind the podcast.

This is a space for honest conversations about resilience, healing, grief, mental wellness, knowledge, purpose, perspective, and the light we find through human connection.

This episode explores why the show was created, what it means to feel lost in dark seasons, some of the experiences that shaped Michael, and how stories, compassion, connection, and community remind us we are not alone.

Part reflection, part invitation, this sets the foundation for a podcast built on hope, emotional honesty, and the belief that even in Life's hardest moments, light can still be found.

In  this episode:

• Why A Lighthouse in the Dark was created
• The origin and principles behind the show
• A glimpse into the host and his heart
• How grief, resilience, love, and purpose shape our lives
• Why healing begins with connection and happens in community
• The invitation to become light for one another

Welcome Light Keepers

Full episodes can be watched as well on YouTube @alighthouseinthedark channel.

For more connection and exclusive content please subscribe to the official @alighgthouseinthedark Substack.

Additional content is available across social media @alighthouseinthedark

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Welcome to Lighthouse in the Dark. I wanted to bring something to you that really is personal and connective. Feels like the world's kind of dark right now. Feels like people are having a hard time and that people need a light in the dark. So the concept of a lighthouse is kind of based on the concept that one candle loses nothing by lighting another. This is about connection and real conversation and communication, but also resilience and hope and finding the light when things feel like they're dark. And hopefully this is going to be a bit of a safe harbor. So I'm going to bring you people who will challenge views, especially mine, who will light you up, who will share deep stories about their experiences and grief. And some will be friends and some will be new people that I'm just experiencing for the very first time. And I'm going to try to make sure it's the real discussions that we don't hear enough of in the world. I try to ask things that are maybe a little more unique, maybe a little unusual, but I want to know what people's dreams are. I want to know how they got here. Because I think part of how we get here is the thing that motivates us and brings us to the point where we can move forward when things seem really dark. So to be a lighthouse in the dark and be your safe harbor to help guide you back when you need a reminder. I have probably the person who knows me the best here today. I thought the best way is to put myself in the hot seat. So the person who probably knows me the best, outside of maybe my youngest child, but you know me in a different way, is my business partner and my closest friend, which is Michael Johnson. So, Michael, I turn it over to you and I open myself up.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Well, uh, thanks for having me here, I guess. And you took my first four questions away. So I guess we should just jump in somewhere else. Um I guess why did you want to do this particular podcast?

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Well, so it's funny because I the way we work so the world knows is because we write together and build productions together, most of the time we have to pitch each other. And it took me a while to pitch you on this. But I really did want to shine a light on there are amazing people in the world, but most of the amazing people I know have had something difficult or something challenging. I think everyone is struggling. And this is not a political stance, but it is a reality, I think, across the board. There are certain things that I think shouldn't be political that have become politicized. But at our core, I think most of us want the same things. And I'm most of us want the ability to build a life, to grow, to spend time with the people we love, and to have the freedom to do so. But there's a lot of mental health and physical challenges and grief and loss that goes into that.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

What does a lighthouse really what is the significance of that to you? Because I've been hearing it as we've talked over the years, it keeps popping up. So just let everybody know what Lighthouse means for you.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

So it kind of started secondhand. Um I was doing all these lives on social media, and a lot of them are still posted for about a two-year period, um, probably starting during the pandemic, but going through, I realized post the end of the Roseanne show and the beginning of the Connors, there was a clear distinction about like people's interactions and reactions, and there was a lot of focus for me on mental health. Um, and then I lost my younger son. And in that grief process, I think I never intended to share as much. But then I started realizing that probably the best thing to do, because Camille came to me and said, you know, if you can share Larry's story, if we can help one family not experience this, if we can help somebody else, she goes, You can be a lighthouse. And that was kind of the first time it hit me. And then I started going online and just opening myself up and having these really deep conversations, which actually it scared the hell out of my reps. I actually lost a rep kind of over it. And what ended up happening was people started saying, Oh, you're you're my lighthouse. Like you're kind of like a lighthouse in the dark. And the more I heard that, the more it kind of echoed and fit what I wanted to do and wanted to be in the world. It's important. Growing up with fame is this very interesting thing, and I think we have a responsibility of what we put in the world and the messages we share. And I, you know, I don't normally talk about it, but it's the necklace that I wear, ironically, is took shape in this way. Is there was a stone that my dad was a jeweler and my grandmother was a jeweler for years when I was a kid. And my dad bought a stone that he never made anything for my grandmother. It was the last stone he bought for her, and it's this kind of really rare stone from Africa that for me kind of represents the birthplace of kind of humanity in a sense. And it's lightning shaped. And so from this angle, it it's like carved and it kind of looks um off-center, and I turned it into a lighthouse and I started wearing it because it was kind of a reminder to me to make sure I was conscious and resilient and mindful of what I was sharing. But ironically, is from the other side, when I look at it, it looks like a lightning bolt. And kind of my whole life I've been, whether it was working on Roseanne or walking out front and being the vocal person after the National Anthem Incident, I have been a bit of a lightning bolt. Receive a lot of hate on a daily basis. I've been living with basically death threats since I was eight years old, and I have been a, you know, a lightning bolt for people's rage and outrage and frustration and anger. And somewhere in the middle of that is I always find the good or the beauty in it. And a lot of times I can kind of sway those people, but at the same time there's a part of you that has to understand that being a lightning bolt is an honor. And sometimes, you know, the concept, houses have something to get struck by lightning because it doesn't ruin the whole frame of the house. And so to be that rod that can stand in the storm and take the lightning strikes, I think is something over the course of my career that just became a reality.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

What does it mean with you carrying a piece for your grandmother?

SPEAKER_02 6:23

Yeah, my grandmother was my early in my childhood, she was my guiding light. She was the maternal force that kind of made everything work. My grandparents are immigrants, so they came to the United States. This is the first country they ever felt like was home. So to be in the middle of all of these controversies and kind of in the battle for free speech, basically since I was eight years old. Overnight, because the National Anthem Incident, I went from like kind of America's darling to overnight, we were kind of hated by a large portion. And in a lot of ways, I feel like we kind of earned our way back, and I was a big part of that in going out and and sharing that. But those first early years, every day I would go to my grandmother's house and we would sit and she would make food and we'd talk about quotes. Uh, so when you see a lot of quotes in my stuff, it's she's the reason is because I used to try to memorize or find a quote each day to share in the kitchen. And then she would cook, and so I still love with my family cooking in the kitchen, being kind of that old school immigrant family where you just kind of sit and talk and meld together over food and find connection with deep conversation. That's kind of what this is is I'm opening myself up to have these incredible conversations with people, and I'm trying to learn as much as I am trying to share. And what I want is to share the most amazing people I can find.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

I I got to admit, I mean, I've I've probably read four books in the past 20 years. So when you talk about learning, I I don't think people understand the amount of information that you consume. And maybe I think you should talk about that. I think someone who tunes in could be like, well, how do you know that? How do you know that? Are you just pretending or something like that? So I think you should share with your veracity of reading and just all intelligence, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

Well, I thank you. Because as one of the smartest people I know to hear that is is humbling. Um I read all the time. Uh that started literally, I hated reading when I was young. The only thing I liked reading was scripts. Um I learned how to read late. Um, my studio teacher, Lynn, taught me the value of reading and learning. Uh, Lynn Raines changed my life from an education standpoint. And I learned the power in education. And I think that's the thing we don't tell kids enough is how powerful it is, the more you know, the more you have a frame of reference. But I became a very critical thinker of trying to dissect things, which meant I needed as much knowledge as possible. It also meant I grew up in a house that was divided on on most topics, whether it be political or religious or like just cultural, right? My mom comes from the south and is a small town girl. My dad was born in China and then grew up in Israel and then came to the United States. My dad's a former military guy, my mom was an educator, like every aspect was up for conversation. And then I walked into a world of entertainment and I was surrounded by they used to call themselves carnies. Like we say that in the most loving way, like they were wild. I grew up, you know, I kind of joke that I was raised by wolves in the most beautiful sense of that. And they were wild and different, and so I was exposed to Eastern and Western philosophy. So in a lot of these episodes, you'll see I will take the other side a lot of times of what guests bring up. But in order to do that, I have to do a lot of research and a lot of knowledge. I also am a voracious like content consumer. Uh, if we have somebody on the, even like Yvette Nicole Brown, who came on and is gonna be one of our first guests. Like, she's a friend. We've been friends for years that people don't know, but I probably read several articles that she contributed to, but I also probably watched somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 or 40 interviews and avoided the questions that everybody asks, but asked the things that I thought there were more because I knew her as a person. If somebody wrote a book, I feel like I have to read it before they come on. So I'm in the process of reading five books. I've read three books this week. Uh it's the beauty of being on a plane. I've also written probably a hundred pages this week. I don't sleep, so it gives me a few more hours in the day, as you know. I am a constant. Like in the background, as much as I like music, there's usually not music on. It's usually some kind of thought-provoking thing, self-help growth, development. Um, I've dove into counseling and like grief and somatic healing and therapy, but also just like metaphysicals, we'll have, you know, from astrologists to astronomers to all kinds of science to human relation people, like every aspect of how you can kind of dissect the human experience, I think it's beautiful. And I was thrown into that environment as a kid where every religion was represented and they would argue, and every political stance was defended, and every kind of thought system and eastern and western medicine and eastern and western culture. And my life is I live in the kind of culmination of Eastern and Western medicine and culture. My mom was a nurse, but I, you know, my grandparents brought stuff with them from China and Israel and had old world, old school things that they followed. So my hope is that I can bring those to the audience and kind of show where, for me, I think a lot of the world feels like those things are in opposition. And it's something you and I talk about in our writing a lot. Is for me, I I find the common ground and where they overlap, because I think the truth is the world is designed for our well-being, and if we'd stop dividing it and start including it, we'd all be better off.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

I mean, it's hard for me to kind of ask you the questions because I already know the answers I'm gonna give. So it's but people think they know you. They've seen you since you were what, I mean, six, six years old. Yeah. What do you what do people think that, what do you see that people think they know about you, which they get wrong?

SPEAKER_02 12:37

It's so hard because I I this is such a thing that you and I talk about, because I've written books that at some point will come out and you've read all of them, right? So you know more than pretty much everybody knows about it. There's four books I've read.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

There's two of them. Yeah. Um breaking this.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Um so it's humbling. It's hard because what people think they know is different. And it's not that it's wrong, it's just that it comes with a lot of other people's projection. You know, growing up on Roseanne, everybody knows DJ. And then people think that they know what that means to be DJ. And it was a very different experience, and I have a very different background. Like I said, my dad was born in China. My grandfather was born in China or Outer Mongolia, depending on the paperwork, right? He worked for the British and ran a port. They moved in 1948 to help establish Israel when it became a country. He traveled all over the world and traded. Like I probably don't have the most interesting story in my own family. And my mom was born in a house with no running water and no electricity. So the idea that I would somehow make a career in entertainment is pretty insane.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

So you've talked about um the one necklace and how it's the lightning bolt. Um what about your other uh necklace that you wear?

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Yeah, I I I don't want ever for people to mistake or think that there's some kind of stolen valor because it is a dog tag. And I think I have such love for the military. I come from a military family. Um, but I didn't have the honor of serving. That is actually something my um oldest daughter made when her brother passed away. And it was something that um it reminds me of my son all the time. Uh this is the part where I like I can't even every time I say Larry's name, there's a part of me that just like the wave of emotion comes over. But it is a reminder for me about him and the connection. Um and then the ring that you see with it is the first ring my grandmother ever made for me. She believed that every little kid should have a ring. So that's my ring from when I was like, I don't know, two years old or whatever. I used to have rings. I'm not a material possession. You can notice I don't really wear any jewelry and I'm not a material possessions person. That's what getting kicked out and having been homeless and like like that part of my life that people will learn more about it made me very non-materialistic. But the one that I held on to is the one my grandmother made. So the two of them hang together kind of as a reminder. And people don't normally, I normally wear it under my shirt, but on this I've I've chosen part of making sure there are no impediments, is I've made sure I wear it on the outside so people can see it, because I'm trying to be as open as possible for people. But you will see me put my hand on my chest. It's it's kind of my reminder sometimes, like to center and to get into my heart, and those two sit on top of my heart all the time. And I want people to understand how you celebrate the people that you love and that you've lost. Grief is a it's a very complex thing because it comes in waves and it never really goes away. I think other people want you to get over it or or stop talking about it. I'm never going to encourage people to that. So there will be some talk of grief on this show because I think it's I think grief is a gift. And I am thankful every single day and every time a hit the emotion hits me. And some of that is also the reminder of like the gift is that grief is a continuation of love. It is love continued, and the greater the love, the greater the grief. And there's going to be pain, but that pain reminds me of how much beauty and love I got to share. And I would never trade a moment of that to not have it.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

So a friend of mine recently um asked me a question. We were messaging back and forth, and she said that she stumbled across uh your, I don't know if it's Facebook or Instagram, it was one of the one of your social medias, and then she said, uh, he seems interesting. Is he really like this in real life or is this just a persona? So can you talk to people, talk to the people about having personas and the what I would say would be the difficulty of keeping up with one if that's not who you really are? I think it'd be exhausting.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

I think I like I I warn people, yeah, this is who I am. I want to have deep conversations all the time. It's my nature. Unfortunately, you put up with it all the time as my business partner and and friend. I have never understood that part of it is people live with this persona thing, and I think that's what drives most people insane who are famous, is they come up with a persona and then they try to hold on to it or live up to it, and then at some point it cracks, and then they have the disaster, right? And the world's like, that's not who you really are. The thing I would tell you about my social media that I actually am proud of, because I have a mixed relationship with social media, I get a lot of hateful messages, as you know, all the time. The thing about social media is I think it's as stupid as this sounds, is I think it's supposed to be social. Like we're supposed to be connecting. The idea that I can reach out to an expert, a lot of the people on the show are people I reached out to through social media. It gave me access to people I would have never had access to. But at the same time, it can be this very weird, it's like a funhouse mirror. And that's what fame is, right? Like you look in the mirror and it rarely looks like you, especially if you start changing yourself and trying to only be the best version of you. So my social media is when I fail and is raw and is honest and is my nature is positive. But yeah, people probably assume that that's not quite who I am, but it's I think my social media more than anybody else is exactly who I am because I just say how I feel and what I think, and I do, I lean positive, which probably is exhausting for a lot of people, but the truth is that life is about your perspective. And my nature and my perspective is to find the positive and find the light in the dark.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

You absolutely are what you portray yourself to be on. Well, I guess it's not a portrayal, but what people see is what they would get in real life. Yeah, which is exhausting sometimes. You can tell you can tell the truth is exhausting. I do need a nap though. Yeah. Um you start this podcast talking to a bunch of people about a bunch of different things. And what is it that you're really that you're trying to put into this world?

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Something positive, something beautiful, um, something honest, something that is not a persona. I want people to come here and sit in that seat and let go of all the things that they're supposed to be to the world. Because when I find is beautiful, smart people often feel forced to be some version for the world. And what I love is we've recorded a few episodes, and I'm finding people are opening up in ways that even they're surprised by. I think the world is hungry for real connection and real deep conversation. And it is my nature to dive into that. Like that's natural for me. And I I love people. So when I bring you all these different people, part of it is I want to learn, but part of it is I like I want you to see what I'm learning. And I want you to know that you're not alone and that the deep conversation or the concepts or all those things are available to you. And so sometimes I'm trying to get people to distill really huge concepts into something that is more manageable so that you don't have to read 40 books, and you don't have to dive into information quite the way I do. Like people don't know when we're writing scripts, I'm obsessed with research, and it's my nature. So for people to understand that I'm bringing you the best, the brightest, the most real people I can, and I want people to come here and sit in that seat and feel seen and heard and valued. And I want people listening to it to know that they're seen, heard, and valued and to shine a light for part of being authentic all the time is understanding that when things are hard, the thing you need most is for other people to just acknowledge it and stay with you in it. Which is why I like the concept of a lighthouse, because a lighthouse stands through the storm, stands through the day, but sits in the dark and just shines a light to say, this is the safe harbor. Come this way.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Can you tell people what is also going to be, I guess we can call it a companion piece to this?

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Yeah, I'm we're starting a stu a substack. Um I'm doing a lot more writing. I want, you know, after writing a couple of books, but then dealing with publishers, the I'm looking at new transitions to get these books out into the world. But the reality is there's so much more I want to write and talk and share. So part of it is it's not just having a conversation, but how does that conversation impact you? And I think one of the things is I am a very Voracious learner. I'm curious. And I, for better or worse, never lost my childlike wonder. I'm still a big kid in a lot of ways. And I think that gives me an advantage and it gives people early and easy access, I hope. And so I think people feel like they grew up with me. Some people feel like they saw me as a little kid and I'm like a brother or, you know, an extended family member. So I have a blessing of connection. So I'd like to open the door to things you may not have considered, or to kind of give you ways to feel seen, feel heard, but also like skills that you can use. Because along the way, the only way I've survived this crazy world is to learn a lot of like somatic and healing and connective, like ways of kind of taking that energy, the frustration, the rejection, the hard parts of life, and then finding ways to kind of turn those into either positives or motivation.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Well, I guess I really don't have any more questions.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

So give us an example of one of your guests' uh journey, so that so we understand the journey that you're trying to illustrate in this podcast. If you can't. It can be bullet points, it can be specific story that stuck out, whatever you want to do.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Yeah, I mean, one of the people who came in as a guest that I didn't know super well was Melissa Romero, who is a somatic healer. Who that was super healing for me. She brought up things that I never anticipated when she said the thing about loud music and the way that people use that. All I could think back was being an angry teenager, and I didn't realize that when I was listening to hardcore rap, like when I was rolling through the streets of Compton with all of my buddies, we were doing somatic healing work, right? In a way that we had no concept because we had no language for that. Right. You know, that's a perfect example. Or KPNA who comes on and talks about, you know, the universe and huge concepts. Again, she's so smart that like I'm like almost totally accepting to feel dumb in that situation, but at the same time, she never makes you feel that way. She gives you these huge, just universized constructs and concepts, but we made them really simple. And so like all of that conversation becomes the genesis for why I think this show is different than a lot of other things. But the other part is I'm gonna continue to listen. I'm gonna continue to engage, I'm gonna read all the comments. Where somebody else reads everybody else's comments, I will tell you if you leave comments for us, I'm gonna see them. I don't respond to everyone. I tend to like a lot of them, which is my way of making sure you know that I saw and I heard you and that I received your message. There's so many and the volume is so high, I can't always respond. Usually the people get the best response are the people who ask a really specific question. Because the details matter. And I never want to leave you hanging on a thread. It's something you and I talk about. It's not that all of our stories tie all the loose ends together, but I don't want to leave you with something that's really important left unsaid. And you know, there's a big part of my life. You know this in particular, Michael, is I've lost a lot of people. And it's very important to me that I don't leave things unsaid. And so I just move through the world a little different. There's a lot of things that the rest of the world thinks are normal that I don't. Um, an example for people would be like, I don't say goodbye at the end of conversations. Poor Michael knows at the end at the end of phone calls. I never say goodbye. I'm supposed to hang up the end of night. So yeah. I and I don't hang up, which is, I mean, we we talk pretty much every day. And you know, I laugh because with the people, especially the people that I'm really close to, I never am the one who hangs up. So everybody in my life knows they hang up. And some of that comes from growing up in environments where people use the hang up as a weapon, right? Sure. And so I have taken that both away from myself, but also eliminated that from anybody else experiencing it is I stay in until the other person is ready to be like that. Space is sacred to me. The time together is sacred. It's for the world. Michael's the one person I talk to more than anybody. Um, between you and Heather and Isabel, my youngest, that's probably about 99% of all phone calls I've ever taken in my life, other than like interviews.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Sure. So, you know, you talk about interviews, which is how you got the foundation, I think, to do this podcast in a in a way that makes people feel like they're heard, and you know, every guest all have the same reaction when they leave, is they're just can't believe some that they can't believe the time has gone by quickly, or how um comfortable they were. I mean, some people say that you're deceptively disarming. Yeah. So um I think that's what the audience gets through these conversations with you, which I think is really important and powerful.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Yeah, I want people to feel safe. Um, I want the people listening to feel safe. Um, I want the people who sit across from me to always feel like they were seen and that they mattered. I think the best part of being disarming is just being like I am, for lack of a better term, just like relentlessly curious. And I love people. And I try to find the light in people. Part of growing up with fame is you're exposed to a lot of people, and I've always looked for the good in everyone, understanding that I will deal with other aspects. But kind of being a lighthouse keeper. Like I try to be the keeper of the light and the person who keeps people's memories alive. It's quotes I love because it's a way of extending someone's experience in the world and sharing their wisdom and acknowledging the past and that there is wisdom. And this is actually one of those points that I haven't really made that I think is important is just because I quote somebody doesn't mean I agree with everything they've ever done or that they believe in. And I think that's a big part of this show, too, is understanding that more than one thing can be true at the same time. We've become a world that's so polarized where people want to be on one side or the other, and people want everything to be good or bad. And the truth is, there are going to be people who sit across from me that I don't agree with. And I'm gonna ask those people to come here on purpose so we can have the hard conversations, and I want to be challenged because I think every smart person I've ever known was willing to get challenged, and I'm willing to be challenged by all of you. You can come, leave comments, questions, concerns. We don't do a lot of editing, it's pretty much as it is. There's only like a little tightening here and there, and for the most part, you see what we do, you're welcome to ask questions back or to make suggestions and suggest people. Like I want this to be a most people want to talk at you. Sure. I said this to you when we first started this. I don't want to talk at people, I want to talk with people, and I want people to be an active portion of this and an active participant in building a collective, connective experience because I think that's what's missing largely in the world, and I think it's where we heal. We heal in community, and people can connect. You may find the most amazing people, somebody may say something, and they somebody may call me out. Like, part of this is I have to be willing to risk myself and be like, okay, I'm here, I'm talking to you, you're gonna judge me, I'm gonna get judged. But also, I've been doing that my whole life, so there's a part of me that's like, okay, bring it. Like, I'm gonna be authentically me. I come, I come with good intentions. The problem with intentions are the impact is always significant. And I think sometimes we underestimate that. And I think sometimes people are like, but I had good intentions. Like, no, if I screw it up, I'm gonna own that I screwed it up. Sure. And so that's also part of this is at some point I will say something stupid, or or there will be a moment, or a guest will come on, and weeks later, completely unconnected to this, they will do something or something will happen in their life. And it's like, I'm not gonna pretend the conversation didn't happen. It doesn't mean I condone people's actions. Every person has loved somebody who has said or done something they don't agree with. Part of this is finding that connective tissue to build a bigger connection, to kind of shine the light a little brighter. And my hope is that people, my real hope is people become their own lighthouses in their communities, in their space, that they hold on to the light and that they shine it around them and that they learn something that makes them better at becoming a safe harbor for somebody else. Because I can't fix everything or or change the whole world. All I can do is change my pieces of it and how I move through the world. And for all the people who are listening, my hope is that you're gonna find a piece of information that reminds you of the good in you, that reminds you that you're worthy and that you have value, that you're gonna learn a new skill from maybe one of the somatic people, or maybe a psychologist comes on and you learn a term for something that you've been struggling with for years and years, that you didn't really realize that that had a name or had something to kind of work through. I want you to feel empowered. Because at the end of the day, this is as much about sharing with you as it is about sharing with anyone else. And I think that's how we started this. I think I'm I'm proud that that's what we came with. It's two very altruistic and mission-driven people finding the right people to share deep conversations with. And then, you know, I try to do my best not to screw it up when I'm in this chair.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Um people my age remember the Roseanne national anthem.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

And then and then maybe reveal some of the fallout that you experienced. And how did you bridge that gap? Because I would imagine after that time period it set a standard of terms of, oh geez, I've got a I've got a bridge out here that I have got to figure out how to get from this side to that side to be able to connect with people and to not alienate uh a whole other branch of people.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

You've been through some controversies through your life. Yeah, that's an understatement. So let's talk about the national anthem um incident for those who don't know. Right. I mean, I'm pretty old, so obviously I it I understand all of it. But for those who don't understand it or don't know it, could you give just a brief little bit about what what that was and then the fallout that came from it, and then basically how they thrust this young child to the wolves?

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Uh yeah, I I mean I don't look at it quite that's the truth, right? But I look at it probably in a more positive way. This is a perfect example of kind of the lighthouse analogy in in working time. So in 1990, the show was the number one show on television. At the end of the second season, the person who owned our show, Tom Warner, also owned the San Diego Padres, and they decided they were going to do working women's night, and she was the epitome at the time of a working woman. So they decided to bring her down, and somebody got the idea to have her sing the national anthem. This is the part where you can literally watch my body language change because you're saying I'm having a visceral reaction to it. I always will. Um, because it's one of the hardest days of my life. But also, I can't watch that clip without wanting to hug her, wanting to protect a woman who very much feels like a mom for me. Like you can literally, like it, you can see it moving through my body right now. And this is for people, this is part of what this show is, is like having these deep conversations that move you in a way that even sometimes you can't totally put into words or expect. So she went down to sing the national anthem. What people don't know is in the 80s she had a special where she talked about how she didn't understand baseball, and all it was was a bunch of guys standing around on the grass, grabbing their crotches and spitting. And baseball players, because our our owner owned the team, would come and sit in the audience and and tell her every time that's their favorite part. I love when you grab your crotch and you spit, and it's so funny. So she went down to sing the national anthem. What people don't know is that's a really hard song. It was an ultimate stadium. There were no earpieces in those days like there are now. So there's a delay for people who have never sang in a big public setting like that. A lot of times what's happening on the field and what you're hearing through the speakers is delayed. So there is a lot of, there's a lot of factors to it. There was no auto-tune then. You know, uh, that might have helped. Sure. Um, and the truth is she started too high. So she had nowhere to go. And as she started doing it, her voice started to crack. She kind of hit the end of a range, then it she basically decided she did what comedians and what performers do is you can watch the panic in her eyes. Yeah, it's the heart like I that footage for me comes up at least once or twice a year. And it it's brutal. Because you can see the terror. And she they start booing, she starts screaming, then she just gets louder to kind of go through the booze. She can't hear the music, so she's basically just trying to finish. It is if for someone who can't sing, sure, that is a nightmare, right? And I learned very early the danger of trying to sing or do something like that if that's not your skill. So it went horribly wrong. And then at the end, she did what comedians do, which is she looks up, looks out, is panic stricken, looks into the dugout, sees these guys who told her their favorite part. So she grabs her crotch and spits, trying to make a joke, because that's what comedians do.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

So then there's the turning point of this, which is that night on the news, then President Bush, the first Bush, was on the news talking about how each of us was un-American by name. And overnight we went from kind of America's darlings to hated by a large portion of society. And I started getting death threats and being the son of an immigrant, and then my mom, you know, kind of having southern roots and being very pro-America, and then my family coming here and doing everything to become Americans. My dad served in the army. They were so proud, and then overnight they were watching their name, me as the bearer of this last name be called un-American by the President of the United States on the news every night for like a week, probably close to two weeks. And it was a disaster. And everybody was crushed. She refused to come out. People close to her told her not to apologize. That was a, I would say that was a tactical mistake, but that's easy to say from this side and from after the fact. But the long and short was nobody would do the press. And so there were people who wanted to cancel us and cancel the show, and we lost sponsors and boycotts, and ABC ABC didn't know what to do. And what they did was they said, okay, we're gonna wait till you guys start again, and when the show comes out. This was I want to say it was like June or July 30th. I think it's June. Or maybe it's the 26th, somewhere around there. That day's kind of burned into my brain, but all for all the wrong reasons, and it's kind of vague because what ended up happening is overnight, death threats on the answering machine, and like people all over the world hating us or wanting to hate us. So no one would do press because we essentially, you know, it nobody wanted their career to end because of this. And then someone got the idea that, hey, Michael's kind of good at interviews. I was like eight years old, and they decided to they need somebody to go out and try to fight for the survival of the show. And I've never really told people this, but um in 1990, the first half of that year, my grandmother that I talked about before died from cancer. Probably like May, so right before this. So, end of the season, I go back to regular school for the end of the year, my grandmother passes away, who is like the matriarch of our family. Everybody in our family is crushed. And then this reality comes that the show, which is kind of the only really stable part of my life and my favorite thing, is probably over. And the option was do you go out and fight for it? So the legacy of this show, largely when people look at like the concept of what people think about this show, that was my that's my message. Because you picture a family that loves each other and a very honest but flawed group of people. Those were all the things I went out and shared with the world because that's how I really felt. There's so much more to this that like only a book would kind of do that justice. But what I will tell you is like what happened is I went on a tour of the country. I think I visited like almost 40 states. We traveled all the time. It was a it was a horrible experience in one sense. And there were a lot of interviews where people tried to make their career by destroying me and mine.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

At the same time, I was on a mission to save this show and to protect her because I also didn't want to lose this professional matriarch that I loved very personally in my life, especially having just lost another. And so I went out and, you know, it was beautiful because I got to travel all over the country and I got to see the country and I got to meet people. And there were, you know, moments where I did interviews where people tried to chop up my interviews and try to make me say things I didn't say as an eight, nine-year-old. And I had to navigate that and kind of counter that and overcome that, which was a really beautiful life skill and taught me to be a communicator. There was also public events, like, you know, I went to an event and a guy backhanded me. He asked me, you know, is your mama that Rosanna? And I was like, by then I kind of learned that there were people who couldn't separate truth from fiction. And I was like, yeah. And he backhanded me and split my lip open. Um and I remember asking him, Are you a sports fan? And he was like taken back because he didn't know what to do. I came from a tough background. My dad's a military guy, right? I grew up with adults on set. Like I was rough and tumble. And I, you know, I I could take, I could take some pushback. So I just hit him with, are you a sports fan? And he didn't know what to do. And I'm standing there with my lip bleeding, and this kid doesn't recoil, doesn't start crying, just looks you square in the eyes and says, you know, are you a sports fan? And he's like, uh, yeah, why? I said, because she'll sing whenever the hell she wants. She might do it again tonight. So just keep watching and see what happens. Because I was defiant, right? Like you, I mean, you know me, but for the world, like part of that is who I am, right? Like there's a warrior part of me that I think the world doesn't fully know. But that's because I was raised by my dad to be a warrior. There was no backing down. And when you grow up in front of the world, there's nowhere to run to. Like I couldn't run away where most people could go home or hide, or everywhere I went in the world was public. So, yeah, for about two months we didn't know if the show was going to survive. And I toured the country and did hundreds of interviews, and it created a very interesting thing because I became the guy who did most of the press for both the original Roseanne and the Connors. I did somewhere between 93 and 95% of all press that was ever done for the Roseanne show. And I'm proud of that because I fought for that show and that legacy because I believe to this day, the legacy of that show belongs to all the fans and the people who supported the show. Like this show means something because other people invested in it and because we shared something that was very real and honest. And the National Anthem Incident was like, what do you do when people want you to go away and when you're challenged in the world doesn't like you and doesn't welcome you? Can you be a lighthouse in the dark and stand in the hate and rally the other people till people can see the light that you do shine and kind of come back to you? And that's what happened is the show came back. Uh went back to work in August, and even when we were working this first like month, I was traveling on the weekends to promote the show, and nobody else would because they were told not to by their by their teams, um, which is the advantage of coming to this with my parents not knowing the entertainment industry, right? Like, and I think my mom knew how much it meant to me because she was the one who was most um alarmed. And my dad, I think my dad recognized the the soldier that I've been trying to raise is marching for what he believes. And I I at that point I don't think they could stop me from doing it, right? And so what the world doesn't know is I went out and fought for this, and then when the show came back, our ratings, there were groups that still wanted to boycott us, but for the most part, our ratings didn't go down, and the show continued. And I just kept doing it two or three weekends a month for the next seven years. I was out on the road promoting the show and loving what I did, and I meant every word. Like, and that continued with the Connors and other controversies. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

Um, you've said this before about love hate relationship with social media. Had you gone through some pretty big controversies, you get hate. Well, I guess back then it was hate mail. Now it's just hate tweets. Yeah. Text message, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

I don't know if it's better to get death threats via via direct message or mail. Because mail comes straight to your house. And like it like in the old days when it was on your answering machine. I remember when Roseanne did her tweets. It was minutes before we got death threats on the answering machine. And my kids woke up to these death threats. And I'm probably jaded in this way, is because I grew up with that. So my response to my kids is terrible because I was like, don't worry, don't answer the door. I got you covered. I will protect you. And my kids felt safe. But I was also like, don't worry, the ones who call you and leave you a message are not the ones you have to worry about. Because that's what I had learned is like the people who call you and tell you are usually not the ones, most people aren't dumb enough to tell you before they attack you, right? Um, it's the quiet ones that you have to worry about. And that's what I would tell people like when you run up to an athlete or an entertainer or whatever, like sometimes people are rude, but it's not always personal to you. You have to understand on my side, I get death threats every day. I have since I was eight years old. So like when you come running up, I'm not assessing just you, I'm assessing the entire situation. I'm evaluating what's in your hands, I'm evaluating whether your hands are in your pockets. I'm as someone who's been stabbed by someone who had bad intent, like I'm checking your hands for what's in your like it's hard for me sometimes to understand whether that's a pen or some kind of small knife, like or a weapon or something else. Like I luckily I have a little bit of a tactical background, so that's a part that most of the world doesn't know. But like I'm evaluating everything about you on your way up. So when you come up and I back up, or a famous person pulls away from you, I would tell you you don't know what kind of messages I get on a daily basis and have my whole life. So you know, you were gonna say something about social media.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

No, I'm just saying, so people maybe don't know the impact of their words or what they say on posts, the effect it has on the person they're doing it, who they're reacting to or against or whatever that situation is. I mean, what would you say to the people out there who are, you know, active on social media? They get the post that destroys them. Do you have a message for those who are looking at and they're feeling down upon themselves or whatever? I mean, I think part of this being a lighthouse also is talking about the impact that those questions that those had on you and how you were able to internalize it and then put something else out on top of it. I think that's what maybe people don't know.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

I think people don't fully realize the the weight that their messages have. And I know some people are just doing it out of frustration. There is an anger and a frustration that sometimes people feel safe to let out online, but there's a human being on the other side of that. And I would I would tell you, read your message before you send it and think, would you want that sent to me, my loved one, or my child? Because it feels easy for people. And I, you know, you know me, I'm kind of a kindness assassin. Like I like I meet you with a level of like the the more hate you send me, generally, I try to meet you kinder because I usually think most of that's projection. I joke with people, you don't know why you shouldn't like me. Like, you know, like if you want to call me, pardon me, but if you want to call me an asshole, like meet me and have a reason, right? Sure. And if you hate me because of a character, that probably means I did my job. Because like there's a couple times I've played a bad guy. Somebody has to play the bad guy for the good guy's story to be told. And I've listened to a lot of performers and athletes and people who get hate. You know, I was a mental like mental coach for athletes for years in another part of my life that people don't know. I would tell you, like, for me, learning to read through the message, and I think I learned this as an athlete, as a baseball player, which is not worrying so much about the delivery method and looking for whatever piece I can take from it. And look, sometimes, okay, you think I suck. Sometimes I think I suck, right? Like, there's the truth. Like sometimes I'm like, yeah, what's not my best scene, right? If you think you're gonna say something that's harder on me than the interior voice that goes on in my head, you're wrong. If you think I ever put anything into the world that I don't fully care about and that I don't want to make the best possible, and that I don't want to keep making better, then both you don't know me and you underestimate the knowledge of what goes into putting something out. But for all the people on social media, especially, you know, I was a coach for 26 years with kids, I'm watching young kids not realize that they're putting themselves out to the world and then watching people get destroyed. And what I would say to anybody out there is if you got a message and it makes you dislike or hate yourself, or if you start feeling like you want to hurt yourself or that you don't think you have any value, then stop and make sure that you come here and that you listen and that I'm your reminder because I want to be a gentle reminder that you matter. I want you to know that you're not alone and that the horrible message is one message, and that most often there are more good messages than bad, but the truth is just because somebody didn't like something that you did or something that you said, it's not the end of the world. So don't rip yourself apart. When you screw up, own it. Because accountability is a bit of a superpower. Instead of recoiling and going into shame and guilt and hate, do the hard part, which is to say, that's me. I screwed up, here's where I'm at, here's what I messed up, and here's how I'm gonna do it different. And teach me as opposed to beat on me, right? And that's something you and I talk about all the time, which is like that's the way I've handled it, is I'm like, I'm not always right. There are moments in life, history moments that you don't, but I try to stand on what I think is the right side of history, and I try to be very open and honest, but one of the things I am is like kind of relentlessly and radically accountable. And part of this is giving a space for people to come share their own and make sure that, yeah, people are gonna judge you. But their judgment, first of all, most of the time isn't right. Don't let the voice in your head convince you that that negative thing they said about you is true. And the ones that hurt people the most are the ones people are worried about being, right? Sure. You know, when you when a young person doesn't feel very good in their body, and I don't I don't know a single teenager in the world who really feels good in their body, body's changing, all that stuff's going on, and somebody tells you that you're ugly or you're stupid or you're horrible, right? People already feel that way. And the one thing I would tell people is be careful, because you might be the thing that pushes somebody else over the edge. And your statement might not be the most horrible thing they've ever read, but you might hit them at just the wrong time. And you can really do a lot of damage, and you might be the thing that really breaks them. And I don't love the term that we use all the time because we use the word broken a lot. I don't think I'm broken. I have been bent, I have been, I have been shattered, I have been crushed, I have been mistreated, I have been lied to, I've been betrayed, I've been abused, I've been lots of things. I just refuse to be broken. And until I give in to that, I don't think you can.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

So I guess, I mean, I really wonder, is there anything that you want to tell the viewers that we may not have covered?

SPEAKER_02 52:12

I I actually probably would just say it to you is you are important. I think that's the part of my social media and this that most people don't do is what you get is me. Is the connection is real and you matter. Part of, and this is something we talk about when we're writing scripts, is wanting to find that collective space and the and the place where the stories overlap and being a visceral storyteller, whether it be a comedy where we're writing sometimes real events, but a lot of times events that we kind of heighten or adjust to raise the comedy or drama, right? But all those things have to be based in some kind of collective, real interaction. So this is my way of coming to you in a whole new way. And this is why I hate this is like the social media part that I hate. And if I could be really honest with you, it's the part that makes me terrified for all of you who are on social media now. Because as somebody who spent their whole life in public, I worry often that we're giving you access to something that a few of us have lived with our whole lives without ever giving you any of the skills to process it. And you're being forced to be judged and evaluated and ripped by strangers, and you're being thrust into a world where you don't have privacy and you don't realize how much of that you're giving up until you do it. And I guess in my case, I've been that way since I was six years old, so I guess I'm trying to make it easier for you. And I want you to know that you're not alone. I hate the term followers. I don't even really like the term fans. There's something I even I love the term our audience from the old show, but the reality is that's not how I look at you. Um, I've seen the audience in kind of a holistic teamwork framework for me, is you guys have come and watched us live, and those of you who've watched us at home have really raised the level of what we do. So I see you as an equal participant. And I think part of building a legacy, you and I talk about this quite a bit, Michael, which is I want people to feel connected. When they watch a show or a movie or a project or the podcast that we make, I want people to realize not only did we hear you and do we take the messages from you and do they matter to us, but we want you to feel seen and feel represented. We want projects that look like the world we live in. And we want you to know that you matter and that you're not just we talk about a lot of interactive stuff and ways to engage the audience because I don't want you to be an audience. I want you to be a participant.

SPEAKER_01 54:58

Well, I guess I really don't have any more questions. So maybe I want to do one more quick thing.

SPEAKER_02 55:07

When you come to a lighthouse in the dark, it matters. Every person who likes, subscribes, who connects, who follows. Like I said, those aren't the terms that I would use. Ideally, in a perfect world, it would be connects, communicates, and interacts. But I want you to know that you matter. And it means something that when you connect with us and all the different levels of connection, I'm trying to find ways to give you the most interaction possible without completely giving my whole life away. You know, I have to have moments of privacy, but I am letting you in in a way that I don't know that most people ever have. And that's part of the goal here is to connect with you in a really authentic way. So ask your questions. Connect, subscribe, like, send messages and respond. Because when you do, it tells me I'm on the right track. It sends Michael and I a message that we need to do more of that, or we connected with something, or we hit the right space. So part of us being able to hear you is the more you interact, the more we know that one matters, and we need more of that. And I'm fine with taking the feedback. I do ask you to kind of be respectful in the way in which you do it, but I also like I welcome you to be as interactive and connected as possible. So I'm gonna give you as many ways I can to connect with you and show you behind the scenes and kind of take that veil of like media and turn it into actually a direct connection. I have lots of projects I'm building, and most of them are designed around real people and real stories. But at their core, they all have real connection. This is a visceral experience, and I want to bring you from one thing to the next and build things that bring people together and remind people that we are far more alike than we are different.