Analog Leader
Helping Supervisors and Managers become true People Leaders through human-centered, Analog skills.
Analog Leader
John Tall
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In this episode of Analog Leader, John Tall shares what he’s learned from years in sales, from knocking doors to leading teams and navigating executive conversations.
We talk about trust, emotional intelligence, reading the room, handling rejection, recognizing people well, and why great sales is really about caring enough to understand people.
When have I deviated just enough that I'm starting to create doubt in a sales conversation to the point where it kills the deal? And it's like, how do I help somebody to get back on script when they've deviated in a way that they feel like is a winning path because it's so close to what is winning, but it's just off enough that now it's a losing conversation.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Analog Leader. Our guest today is John Tall. John, tell us about you.
SPEAKER_01Hey, I've been doing sales for a long time, uh, mostly professional sales. I early in my career knocked on doors, so I've had a lot of just getting out there and getting it done kind of mentality. Um, I love, I weirdly just love people. And so it's kind of my I guess it just naturally came to me as something that I like doing, talking to people and helping them to get what they want. I feel like that's what sales is.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. Helping people get what they want is kind of one of the things that we talk about a lot. On this podcast, we call it Analog Leader because we like to talk about the skills that are needed when you're in person. How do we how do we develop those skills that aren't digital, that aren't AI related, that require human touch, require connection and uh and your presence. So I'd love to talk to you about sales and how that how that relates, but also just you know, in general, how do you deal with people and what are the main skills that you use in order to develop a relationship quickly?
SPEAKER_01I think the first thing for me is kind of like you have to kind of care. And it's something where, like, what's your reason for caring? Sometimes you have motivations for caring, but I I intrinsically just feel like I care to know people and I'll remember interesting facts. So this is this is something that at a very young age I was able to, I guess I was probably pushed into situations that I didn't know that I was being pushed into. But it's something where if I think about getting to know people, getting to understand them, I kind of care about that. And I feel like most people do. Most people care about other people, usually. Um and I feel like when you're trying to understand people, you're trying to just like break down barriers, or maybe, maybe if it's in a sales meeting, or if you have your kids with you going to a party. Last night I took my kids to a party, they all I had to sell them on going to a party. Uh and then when you get there, it's it's just like just let them free, go experience things. And I feel like for me, if I get put into a situation where I'm meeting people, I've learned how to make eye contact. I've learned how to um be genuine about compliments. Even you can't just go and compliment people, but it's a really nice gift for them and it opens people up, makes them feel a little bit like safe, less vulnerable, perhaps. Um, and I try to find things that I really like about people. And if I do like them, do like those things, I'll usually tell people about it in a in a sincere way. So I feel like in general, meeting people, getting to know them, it's just really fun for me. I love it.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. So you you mentioned a couple of really key things, helping people to feel safe and less vulnerable. In a sales role, you're go you're going out and you're trying to convince people to spend some money with you. You're trying to sell them on a product that they probably need. I'm not saying that they don't need it, but you have to convince them of that need and how it's gonna make their life better. And you're taking their time, you're taking their presence and all that kind of stuff. What kind of problems do you run into in those conversations?
SPEAKER_01I feel like if you're going to be talking with somebody, I like to sell stuff where I'm alleviating pain. So that's a first off. In sales, I'm not gonna try and just sell them on John Tall being awesome, which is helpful to think that you are, but you will really want to sell a solution to a problem. And in when you're selling something, if you can have a problem and you're solving it and you're also really great to work with, so you're good at contract management, you're good at navigating executive conversations, you understand what a company needs at its highest level, and you can communicate that across the across everybody and multi-thread across an organization the right way. I feel like it makes an organization feel like they're in control of the conversation while you're just kind of helping them to get where they need to go personally and the company where it needs to go for all of its shareholders and stakeholders. And if you can do that effectively, that's a really great way to, I think, a really great way to help a company get to where it needs and make sales. So it sounds like this is something you've done for a long time.
SPEAKER_00It is. Tell me, tell me about the start of your career. Where did where did it start? What's the progression for John Tall? Where did where did you begin in sales? When did you know you wanted to stay in sales and and how did that progress?
SPEAKER_01You know, it's funny. When I was in high school, I was a student body president, and it's this is this is going way far back. But um I was recruited to a university to go and be a recruiter there. So I guess I was selling kids on going to university at Utah State initially, um, later went on a mission, and you've got to kind of sell people on learning about religion. And then later went back to university, recruited kids, and then knocked on doors and sold security systems. Um, you just like learn how to communicate with people. And in a lot of these settings, it's like sink or swim. You either make it or you don't. And so my motivation to really learn how to sell was really high because I just couldn't fail. I didn't really have that option. So learning how to sell, and then slowly, as I progressed in my career, finished college and then entered into more professional selling and learned different sales methodologies, different sales processes, and inversely the buying process and what is expected of me at every stage and what's expected across my organization and their organization. Um, and I just really started to understand that more. And as you understand that, you build a lot of confidence and you grow passion for it.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. I think that that's one of the things that would be very scary to me show up on somebody's doorstep selling a security system. You know, you you probably met some interesting people doing that. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Very interesting. Um, but it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. So I did it in safe, mostly safe areas, I felt like, but it in retrospect, it was probably pretty scary.
SPEAKER_00How did you take no? I mean, that's that's the biggest, the biggest issue for me in doing any kind of sales. And the reason that I never did it well, because I I I couldn't stand the no.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and everybody you you watch movies and they're like, we don't take no for an answer. You're gonna take so many no's as an answer, and that stinks. But um, if you can handle rejection and if you can handle uh understanding really that the math is there, if you if you hit enough doors, then you're gonna get enough opens, you're gonna get enough opens with conversations that don't end like abruptly and unwanted ways. And then you're going to get to points where you're gonna have some that are gonna close faster, and then somewhere it's gonna take a couple days and a couple of weird emotional decision making, and you learn how to kind of navigate the nose with emotional buying and with kind of like rational decision making. I think that it takes a minute to figure that out. But when you do, it becomes more tolerable. I want to say more fun, but it's fun until it's not. And then you kind of like have to figure out how to make it fun again.
SPEAKER_00So it sounds like there's a process that goes on in your brain when you show up to make a sales, yeah, that you go through a series of ideas to try and resonate with this person. Tell me about that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think that that's a that's a really good point because as you're trying to resonate with them, you're trying to kind of step into their world a little bit, but you're wanting them to come into your world as well. Because whatever they're doing, if you're calling somebody and you're prospecting, for instance, and you're trying to get them to even join in a conversation, your goal is to understand what they do inside of their organization. And then maybe when they answer the phone, try to mirror them a little bit so that they kind of find immediate. I want to call it safety, but I want to call it also just like resonance. They feel like you kind of understand them. And that's you kind of sometimes do, but I feel like if you're if you're calling them and you're talking with them in those moments and you're able to communicate with them effectively, it's something where I'm kind of I feel like I'm getting on a tangent here. Um, I think that just calling people and getting them into your world is is really hard to do. But if you can find the right person, the right pain point, then you can motivate them to move forward in a conversation and ultimately a sales process.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I know for myself, I don't buy anything from anyone that I don't make a connection with. If I don't feel like they care about me and I truly like what they're trying to sell and I can see the advantage, then I'm done talking to them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And you can buy stuff. I think you can buy stuff that you have to have. Like you can buy firewood if you had to have a fire from somebody who's a jerk to you from behind the counter and you're just like, let's get this transaction done with as fast as I can. But if it's going to be longer and you have multiple options, still it's something you have to have. But if you have options, you definitely want to make it so that people trust you and they're not constantly trying to push back on you, trying to whittle you down or trying to like make you lower your price all the time. Being likable and keeping your price high and making it so that they feel like you have their back and that they can trust you. It's a skill that takes a long time, but it's uh it's a skill that's worth developing for sure.
SPEAKER_00So you hone these skills in the trenches, knocking on doors, getting kids to go to a certain college. I mean, you you it sounds like you spend a lot of time in the trenches honing these skills.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I I love it. I love talking with people. If there's actually a way to help somebody and I can do that, then I I want to. If there's if there's anything that you can do for somebody where you can help them to alleviate a certain amount of pain, it's a fun, it's fun to do it.
SPEAKER_00So then fast forward to you you've done the individual sales and uh you know, been in the trenches, you you move into uh corporation type sales, business to business, I'm guessing. Yeah. Tell me about that.
SPEAKER_01It's a change. It's a big change because dealing with trying to sell somebody uh an emotional buy in a security system, maybe you never need that. Like life insurance, hopefully you never need that, right? Um and as you're changing from that into something where it becomes really competitive and it's you're dealing with multiple decision makers and you're trying to figure out how to how to catch them at the right time, how to not be annoying. Because I think it's great to be like enjoyed and liked working with, but also just not to be annoying. Um, I feel like that takes a lot of skill and a lot of training. And if you can find a way to train yourself, great. And that's it just takes a long time to figure it out. So it took me like a year.
SPEAKER_00You hear you heard it here, folks. Don't be annoying. That's the key to sales, right?
SPEAKER_01It really is. It really, that's it. You're done. That's it. Just don't be annoying.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I find that I find that amusing because that's you know, that's one of the things that's really important in almost all uh walks of life. Don't be annoying and you'll have more success.
SPEAKER_01And sometimes it's hard to know if you're being annoying. I probably annoy so many people and I don't even know it. Probably annoy my wife all the time. She's like, no, that's annoying. Um, but it's like if you can figure out how to not be annoying, how to not be too like off of a spectrum of what somebody is going to find even appealing, that's really helpful. And understanding that there are multiple different types of personalities and understanding how to kind of I don't want to say be a humiliating because it's something where you've got to be really genuine, you have to be yourself, but make it so that you're not going to frustrate somebody, it's helpful.
SPEAKER_00So would you say that that's kind of you you said matching the person's personality or matching them where they are a bit? Do you believe that's also kind of one of those things where you have to read the room, understand who you're dealing with and what's important to them first?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And understanding reading the room, understanding where they're at if they're like in a good mood, if they're all tired, have everybody stand up kind of stuff if you're in a conference. Um, but if you're at a if you're at a board meeting and you're talking with people and you can tell that they're looking at their phones their whole time or they're not very engaged, you need to go in there prepared to speak to every single one of those people. So the CEO, you need to know what they care about. They have bosses, they've got all these shareholders, they're stressed out of their minds, but they look really calm and cool. CFO, they're trying to poke holes, they're trying to figure out how to tell you yes, but they have to tell you no if you can't get stuff right. So you're trying to figure out in this boardroom who in there is there to say no and whose job is it to be like the good guy, the bad guy, and really touch to everybody, not in a way that's sneaky, but you've got to figure out is my solution going to actually help an organization? And if it is, I need to have a really solid case for not only the company, but each individual person and understand why they want to talk with me and why they have to talk with me. And if I can perceive that somebody's gonna say no beforehand, try to address that as fast as possible.
SPEAKER_00So it sounds like it's a real, almost kind of a gut feel type of thing that when you walk into a room, you really assess who's who's on your team and who's not. But there's also there must be some kind of a system that you follow in order to do that, to help you with that situation.
SPEAKER_01I think you're right. Um, it is kind of a gut thing. And I think that that's that's kind of hard for people to be like, yeah, it's just a gut thing. You just got to figure it out in your gut. Um, I I think that as you're as you're looking at the room, there's certain key aspects. Who's making eye contact with you more? Who feels, who do you perceive is more distracted? And you have to learn what do distractions look like. How can you help somebody who looks like they're distracted? How do you call it out in a way that isn't annoying for them, that doesn't make them dislike you? You could be like, hey, you look, you look distracted because you're on your phone the whole time. Would you mind putting that away? You don't say that to an executive. But you have to find a way to keep their attention and be entertaining for them in it in the right way for their business. I think as you're in a boardroom talking with people, one thing that I really feel like is difficult to manage is understanding all of their roles kind of deeply. So if you're talking with the COO or you're talking with somebody who's just overrunning all of operations, does sales also report to them? Does marketing report to them? Does finance actually report to them at all? Or are they like a peripheral and they report to the CEO? So understanding who reports to who in an organization and where the leverage is as well is really important. And I try to make everybody in a room look good and like they're doing their job in a really great way so that they can get promoted as well. I think if you're going to be selling to a company, help everybody in that company to move up the ladder. Um, and that's employees, everybody, I want to move up the ladder. Everybody wants to find a way to look good in a real way. And if you can do that in a very visual way to their COs, whoever their bosses are, if you can make them look good in that moment, you should absolutely do it. As long as it's genuine, of course.
SPEAKER_00Sure, and I think being genuine is the key point there. If you're not authentic and you're not genuine, people see through you, don't they?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh yeah. And I think um a lot of extroverts, like I've been called out as being uh maybe fake feeling, but not really. I just love people. And I think in those moments, if you can find ways where you can pinpoint um tangible, like quantifiable things that somebody has done and highlight those at their business. One time I talked to uh, I was LinkedIn messaging the CEO of this major dental company. They have like like 1,200 dental offices. And I talked to him and I said that his marketing manager was awesome, really great guy, like whittled me down on pricing, but we came to a deal. So this is when the deal was fully signed. And that guy later, this marketing person, reached out to me and thanked me for messaging their CEO. And later he got a promotion for probably a number of great things that he was doing. But it's nice to be able to just give shout-outs in the right way for people when you can.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, especially if they're specific and true. You know, yeah, that's a big part of it. Yeah, sincerity is super important. Yeah. So so now you you you work in sales uh B2B in that. From there, you you were you're actually over some pretty good sized sales teams. Yeah. Tell me what that's like to manage or to lead sales people.
SPEAKER_01It's like um, it's a ton of fun because these are people that they want to be there. They're really motivated, they're motivated financially. And you have to understand when somebody's doing really well, why they're doing really well, and articulate that to everybody else and constantly keep the energy at a certain level that doesn't exhaust everybody, that doesn't burn them out. Um, and also is also seems really fair because there's there's a lot of luck in everything. And in sales, it's like you can get an inbound lead sometimes, and that went to you because it was round robin to you. Or or you have just other timing luck. Like maybe you got one in a hundred kind of deal from prospecting really hard, and everybody else is prospecting really hard, but they didn't find that luck in that moment. You just have to motivate people to keep going. And understanding people, understanding what they have going on in their homes. Some people have sick kids, they've got sick parents, they've got divorces, they've got stuff that's very personal for them that's really painful. And you have to navigate that in a way that keeps them feeling like you care about them on a personal level, you care about their career, and that you're fair. Because people will find out when you're when you're not fair and you're favoring one person over the other for whatever reason. And that can really be that can feel demoralizing and really hurt motivation as well. So you've got to find ways to keep it equitable and know that they're human and that they got stuff going on.
SPEAKER_00Fairness is always a big issue with a lot of people. You know, all of us look for what is fair and equitable. What is the what is the best tool that you use? What is the best skill that you've been able to use to be fair?
SPEAKER_01That's such a good point. I think visibility. If you can help people to see things and have more transparency, both outwards and just cross-relationally inside of a business. So having some form of reporting, um, having the ability to really highlight direct correlation and causation for specific good outcomes and also on what like bad outcomes. But keeping that kind of visibility and transparency um available is really powerful.
SPEAKER_00I agree. I think that some people they get caught up in this, I'm firm but fair type situation. And I think that works for some, but that firm but fair mentality doesn't always serve everyone. It might serve the people who like to be talked to directly, but doesn't serve everyone. So, you know, firm but fair, that's a that's a that's a way to do it. What are what are the other things that have that have shown? You you you've mentioned transparency. I think that's that's really important. What are some of the other things that that make people feel like, you know, John's fair, he's fair?
SPEAKER_01You know, apart from and in sales, it's it's like a numbers thing. So it's really visible. Like you either made sales or you didn't. And then you got to dive in, pull back why those things didn't happen. And the firm but fair, if you put the rules out front and there's just the rules of engagement, I have my territory, I have these kinds of deals, I have this ability to go and win. And if I fall behind, then I need to take ownership of that and having some form of ownership, whether that's like extreme ownership mentality or or some other way to think about stuff, trying to instill that into people in addition to being firm but fair, because you have to be firm but fair because somebody else is firm but fair to you, usually. So it's like, ah, if I'm not firm and fair, then how do I stick around and how do I survive? But how do I help people to take ownership and recognize that that firm but fair actually is okay? Doesn't matter what their personality type is and that they're able to take ownership. In sales, it's usually pretty straightforward. Yeah. Usually they they actually want to take ownership. They want you out of there. They don't want you owning anything. Right. So if you can help them to just own it, that's better.
SPEAKER_00So so what part does inconsistency, when you see people who are inconsistent in their message, inconsistent in their work ethic, inconsistent in whatever part of their job they do, how does that affect their work?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think I think it's typical to see people have ebbs and flows. And you have like in the summertime, you want to go on vacation, and same thing with work. Sometimes you push harder or slower. And if you can find ways to help people to manage their own consistency, that's helpful. I think, I think the word is overused sometimes, but gamification, it kind of goes hand in hand with that transparency. See whose numbers are there. And if you're in a competitive environment where people thrive on really going head to head with other people, that's really that's helpful. When somebody you said message, and I think that that's actually the hardest thing to identify as an individual contributor, is when when have I deviated just enough that I'm starting to create doubt in a sales conversation to the point where it kills the deal. And it's like, how do I help somebody to get back on script when they've deviated in a way that they feel like is a winning path because it's so close to what is winning, but it's just off enough that now it's a losing conversation. Um, that's something that you have to, just like football, you have to go back and watch the tape. You got to go back and look at all the calls and listen to it and maybe read people if it's a screen share. You have to go and read their faces and read their faces. It's it takes a minute to help people to get back on track with their actual messaging if they've deviated from what has been demonstrated to win.
SPEAKER_00So have you ever worked with somebody on that on that thought process who just wasn't going to make it? And what what does that lead to? Well, how you know what kind of what kind of conversations do you have with those people? And and what do you do when someone just you can see this isn't for them?
SPEAKER_01I care because I care about people, I care to have conversations early. I think there's this this phrase, get ugly early, is a phrase that I kind of I lean into. I lean into it in the sales cycle as well. If somebody wants something and they're like, I want a 90% discount, you just have to tell them up front. Because I don't want to waste their time. I definitely don't want to waste my time. But with people, if they're falling behind and you care about them and you want them on your team, and usually, usually you do, you didn't hire them because they stink, you want to make it so that they can find ways to work with you hand in hand and that you're not against them. Sometimes I felt like managers were against me. And if you can find ways to actually legitimately help reps, help them to get better and give them an actual path and say, like, look, I'll make calls with you. I'll be, I'll help you out. Because if not, they're gonna let you go. And if you can find ways to help you to get group power and kind of say, like, this isn't me letting you go, it's everybody, or you can you can do it however you want, I suppose. I think every organization is different. But I think that that that playing by the rules of engagement and playing by the rules of an organization, it eliminates you emotionally and it puts that person kind of at odds with their situation. So if they're not doing well, it's part of the rules. They knew it, they didn't figure it out, and at some point they're gonna have to go if they don't change direction.
SPEAKER_00Right. And so this is where consistency kind of plays in as a manager or as a leader of other people that you have to be consistent in the way that you say, these are the rules that you're not following, these are the quotas that you're not hitting, these are the things that we need to improve on. And if that improvement doesn't come, there's gonna be repercussions to that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and rep most reps have been there at one point or another. It's like whether the con in software, sometimes the software is not like it doesn't meet the market needs. And so it's harder to sell. So you have to make four times the amount of prospecting calls. You have to figure out how to get in touch with more people. Um, and if you can find ways to to increase capacity, great. But that can be really painful to have to deal with. Um, but most of the time, as long as you can articulate the rules of engagement and that people are playing in this sphere and that they need to fall in line, they've got to find ways. And if you can have all of the different systematic levers that they need to pull and you can help them to do it, it's really fun to do. It's really fun to help people to get that stuff figured out. I like it.
SPEAKER_00I think that's a big part too, is that you've got to have if you don't enjoy your job, especially when you're leading people, you probably ought to find another job. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. So uh many of our clients are in manufacturing uh or they're in retail. They're in they're in really not glamorous jobs where they're they don't have that financial incentive, they get paid by the hour. And it's it's difficult to motivate those people to come in every day and do your best, even though you're only going to make this much every hour. Uh so to those clients that we have who lead people in that kind of a setting, what do you see as as the big features that you could bring into a room to help people understand how important their work is?
SPEAKER_01I think you nailed it with helping them to see how important their work is and seeing the end product where it goes to. Even manufacturing, you think about cheese, like my kids love cheese. It's like you're making kids happy. May not seem like it right now, but you definitely are. And you got to do this really well. Um, if you're dealing with water, everybody needs water. Um, but manufacturing as a whole, sometimes people don't grow up thinking that this is gonna be what I want to do when I grow up. But once you're there, I think a lot of the time people feel more confident because they're good at something. And if you can help somebody to recognize and get recognition internally that they're good at what they do and that people value that they're doing something good in like a really great way, that down that chain helps other people to get good value as well. I think that that's helpful. Um, airbag manufacturing, you see, you see how dangerous that can be. You can see like all the people who go into some of these different factories and the way that they're actually going to work, it's incredibly meaningful that they do a great job. And I think as long as you can highlight those kinds of when when somebody's doing a really good job, especially inside of kind of like a factory, that it's um it's really helpful for the company, but it keeps those employees coming and it keeps them recruiting some of their friends to come and work for you as well. If you have great employees that you want to keep, having them bring in more of the same person like them is really helpful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's a that's a really important factor for people to understand is that as you create a culture at work or as you create a community, that community grows based on the people that are inside that community.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah. Yeah, it's it's like you if you can get your best people to bring all their friends in who are kind of like them, uh, it's a win. But yeah, I think helping people to get notoriety inside of a company, it seems like you don't care about it when you talk about it. But when it happens, it feels great. Yeah, I kind of like being up on a pedestal. It's like when you go and run a race, nobody wants to be in like the fourth position because the top three are up in front of everybody. So I feel like if you can be number uh like somebody who gets some kind of recognition, it's helpful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think recognition is important in the workplace. I think sometimes it's overdone when it's not when it's not authentic, when it's just, hey, we're gonna give an award for the employee of the month or whatnot. You know, and everybody it that you don't you've seen HR and they'll they'll manage it. Okay, well, that person was the employee of the month last month, who, you know, who hasn't been employee of the month so far. And sometimes they sometimes it ends up just being a program. So, you know, I think recognition is important, but the best kind of recognition usually doesn't come with that your picture gets put on the wall. The recognition comes from my supervisor recognizing what I do and telling me how important that is to not just the company, but to them as a as a leader. Yeah, you're so you're so right.
SPEAKER_01And I feel like anytime I say I feel like frequently, and it's something that I've had to kind of think about doing because uh I I've understood this. I've read that most men, they think more than they feel. And so I try to get in touch with how I feel. Sometimes I can't. Sometimes I'll think about it like I don't even know what I'm feeling right now. Um, it's probably like some kind of anger, I don't know what it is. But I'm like, if you can find ways to truly put yourself in employees' shoes and be like, what would I care about if I were them? And what would I what would I want to feel if I was that person? That's a hard exercise to do. If it's hard to do for yourself, then it's probably hard to do for others. And I think that that's a skill that if you're able to go and think about how do I feel right now? Is this is this something that I want to feel? Like, how can I feel differently? Is this something that I need to work on? And then you're able to leverage that to make yourself better and make other people better, that's great. And that's that's a hard exercise to do. It takes a lot of kind of introspection, I think a lot of self-work, stuff that I have to think about. How do I, how do I want to feel and like outline it? I think that that's an important thing to do as management. Like if you can go and think about how I can feel my own feelings and then understand what other people are feeling and leverage that for the betterment of that person legitimately, not just to manipulate people, but to actually like help them to grow and it helps the company to grow. And getting recognition is just part of that. Like, what makes somebody feel? Is having my name like on the the Walmart or whatever company employee of the month? Is that awesome? Yeah. Is it for a good reason? Yes. I want to feel like I deserve something. I don't just want to be like recognized for I don't know, getting paid by a company and being showing up. So I agree. I agree that it's important to actually do it in a way that's meaningful for that employee.
SPEAKER_00Excellent. I I think that's the empathy piece that uh you and I were talking before we went on about how empathy is something that some people say, well, it's hard to it's hard to empathize with others. But I think that it's critical, especially when you're when you're supervising, leading, managing people. Empathy is one of the superpowers. Aaron Powell, it really is.
SPEAKER_01It's it's I feel like most people would say it's not hard to think about how other people are thinking or feel how they're feeling. But I think that it is. I think it's really difficult to understand when somebody has a parent who's died or has a kid who's really sick and might die, um, whatever else it could be there in their life. Unless you've been there, empathy, empathy is really hard to actually feel. But if you can really dive in and put try to put yourself in their shoes, I think that that's that's meaningful in management. It's meaningful to help people to feel like you actually really care. And as long as you do care, I think that that's a powerful way to really help other people to do their best at work. I agree.
SPEAKER_00I believe that caring is one of those things that you can fake. But only for and many people try it, right? And I think that you can fake caring, and people will even buy into it once in a while. They'll be like, yeah, that person really cares. But then as soon as they find out that it was fake, you've lost that person forever.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's painful to even think about. Uh, wasn't that there's like a TV series or a movie, it's like, I care. You're like, no, it's this lady didn't care. She was like a drug company, manufacturing company, and they ended up killing a whole bunch of people, and she's like, I care about profits. And if that's how people perceive you, is that you just care about profits all the time and you don't care about them and their career progression, or you'll hear this every now and then, like, I had to leave this company for the betterment of my family, or I had to do this to make a good decision for my family. You don't want people to leave for that. You want them to stay for that. So if you can find a way to help that, that's that's powerful.
SPEAKER_00So we tell people that the key analog skills help us get people to a place where they believe three things. I'm listened to, I'm cared for, and I'm a part of the team. I belong. I believe that when we can close the gap and we can make sure that people do feel listened to because they are, they do feel cared for because they are, and they're a part of the team because they are. I think that those key skills that can be developed by anyone help us answer those three questions. Am I listened to, am I cared for, am I a part of something? What are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_01Listening and versus hearing. It's all it's always what you think about. It's like, am I actually listening to somebody? We're our world is so full of distraction that we're we're constantly thinking about other things that we need to be doing, our own problems. We're thinking about navigating future conversations sometimes. It's like working, working in sales is like chess. It's like, what's their next move? Here's my next move. Do they care about me or are they just trying to play this game with me of whatever it is that I'm trying to do? And if with employees, feeling listened to takes you, it really forces management to actually actively listen. And I I think that you have to actively think, how do I stop being distracted? I think is step one. So if you can really look somebody in the eyes and not be distracted, sometimes you don't know this, but you'll have an AirPod still in your ear. I do this all the time with my kids. And I need to be more, I need to be more present in in my personal life. But being present at work, it'll hurt you really bad if you're not present. So actively listening, helping people feel like they belong. I that's that goes back to the recognition. You have a future here, you're important, we value you. Like, you ever notice when one person gets a happy birthday huge cake and somebody gets like a small cake? Maybe I have to cut this out, but I'm like, oh, that that kind of kills me. It's like you just showed everybody that you really care about this person, but you don't care about this person as much. And trying to trying to find ways to keep things equitable but still sincere and showing everybody that you value them like your family almost is really it's hard to do, but it's really important.
SPEAKER_00I'll never forget one of my biggest failures. My wife and I have been married for 45 years now. Yeah, that's awesome. And I was on the road, I think I was in New Jersey at the time. This has been a few years ago, and her birthday came and went. And I didn't make the phone call. I, you know, I was so caught up in all this stuff with my business and everything. And uh I remember getting home and all of a sudden it hit me, and I said, Wow, I forgot, I forgot to call. And so I told her, and she's like, uh, no big deal. But I could see how much it hurt her that I didn't call her on her birthday, and that was a big failure on my part. Those kind of things happened. How do you recover from something like that?
SPEAKER_01Man, that's big of you to even talk about that in such a public import. Um I think you owned it. You did it. You owned it, you talked to your wife about it, you said, look, this is like I feel kind of bad about it. You mentioned that you didn't feel great about it. You're like, I love you. And that's like we're a team. 45 years, you did something right. Jeez, how old are you? You look so young. Um I you are that's crazy, 45 years. I was 10 when we got married.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh my goodness, that's impressive. No, I bet you have a lot of great stories like that where you smooth things over. You can't be married for 45 years and have everything smooth sailing. And it's almost like sometimes conflict makes it so that you stick together longer because you you kind of get through things together. And I think conflict resolution, conflict management, as long as you're you want to be part of the team, and kind of taking this on like a personal relationship side, but you got to take that with work as well. As long as you want to be there, making it so that you can own some of the things that you don't do great. It shows it shows that you care, it shows management, it shows like ownership. And I think that that's that's a level of sincerity, that's a level of growth that a lot of people don't ever want to take ownership when they mess up. I don't. Sometimes it's painful to look dumb or look like you did something that kind of hurt somebody else. Sure. So it's big of you to even talk about that here. Jeez. Um, man, I've heard I've hurt my wife, I'm sure, so many times that where it's like whether it's a birthday or it's like something else, and I'll you you try to say sorry, and sometimes it doesn't come out very sincere. So this is this is a success story where you did it the right way. And I think that that's you have to do that at work.
SPEAKER_00Um do I have are you asking me if I have any personal No, you you you answered the question well. I I think that that's the key right there. And you you know, you said sincerity. That's the to me, that's that was probably the one thing that got me out of the doghouse, if you will, is that I was I was truly sincerely, sincerely sorry about it because I knew that I had made her feel uh less than important, which is never, never something I wanted to do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, making people feel important, feeling important, or just like not feeling useless and at work, when do you feel like you're just a butt in a seat? When do you feel like anybody could just do this? Why do I like why am I important? It doesn't matter if I even show up because why why am I important at all? And I think articulating that to people routinely and in a way that's sincere still, but in a way that is helpful for them and helpful for the company, I think it takes a lot of effort. And I think I've been I've been highlighted at times where it made me feel good. Like I I can't, I don't have like a specific moment, but sometimes things don't feel great. And all of a sudden you just get recognized a little bit and it makes a whole world of difference. Massive difference.
SPEAKER_00I was walking through a factory that makes ice cream bars, and there was a guy whose his job was to unbox and unpackage the walnuts that went on these ice cream treats. And all day long, he'd cut boxes open, tear these bags open, and dump these walnuts into this processing machine that would then go down the line. And as I'm walking around with the factory manager, he he stops and he says, Hey, hold on a second, I gotta go talk to this guy. So I was kind of listening as it was going along, and he walks over to me and he says, Hey, today's your fifth year anniversary of the of your start date here. And the guy said, Yeah, yeah, I've been here five years now. And he says, Well, I just want you to know that I get paid because of you. My paycheck comes from your work, and it matters to me. I appreciate that you've been here for five years, and that sometimes this might seem like a thankless job, but I get paid because of your work. Thank you. And I thought that was the most genuine and real praise I've ever seen. Uh those kind of things really matter to people. Have you done things like that with the people who have reported to you? What kind of things have you done to make them realize that you truly do see them and appreciate what they do?
SPEAKER_01I think it's important when you can publicly give shout-outs. So talking with people one-on-one, it's not hard to say things that are meaningful to them and help them to feel like if they did a really great job, if they're meeting all their goals, if they're making a difference, if they're going above and beyond and you mention it to them, that's great. And in sales, it's kind of easy. Give them a sales rep of the quarter of the month, or highlight a specific deal and then tell everybody about it so that they can all go and try to replicate it. That's good. But doing it at the right time and really giving a lot of praise at the right time is incredibly impactful. Um, and also not like doing giving um maybe some critical advice in private is also important. Because you can see, I've noticed in some situations, it made me cringe, feel uncomfortable, when somebody gets called out for doing something. And it was something that should have been said in private. Didn't really mean a lot for the business. Um, they were called out individually by name instead of anonymously for a task that didn't get done the right way. I think if you can really give praise in in public at the right time and critical stuff in private the right way, it keeps people feeling like even you can be critical to somebody and they can appreciate it because you help them to do a better job. You help them to not stink.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love the way you put that. I think, you know, praise in public, punish in private, I think that's that's a real strong key to to good leadership. I appreciate you bringing that up. So, who are some of the people that you look to from your past who have helped you become who you are today?
SPEAKER_01Oh man. You know, you don't want to like talk about your parents too much, but it's kind of helpful. Sure. So I think my dad's like the epic optimist. He's a dentist, and he's not really communicating with people all the time, even though he has to sell them on getting dentistry done. He's got them, he'll ask questions where he's got like his little tools in their mouth, like, hey, how are you doing? They're like, oh it's like not a really great sales environment. It's like, you want to go forward? They're like, oh, he's a great sales guy, just forces him into it. Um but I think having a level of optimism is is really hard to do. And choosing to think on the positive side of stuff when when things don't look that great. Um, my mom was sick like my whole life. So she had she got cancer and I was like uh eight years old, and then was left with kind of like the complications of that after. And my dad was always just like, oh, she's gonna be fine. And they went to like the best doctors and tried to get great stuff. But having positive energy around you all the time, I really give my dad a lot of that that I guess that credit. Um, and then thinking about kind of like work leaders, who I think, and my mom also very positive, sick, but very positive, fought like forever, as hard as she can be. I can imagine, which I respect. Um, and I think about work people. I think, geez, I worked at this company. So I worked at Oracle for for three years, loved it, really worked, learned sales process, but where I learned passion and fire for work was podium. And there's a lot of great leaders there. I feel like Than Hancock is one of the people that I have loved working with, really great guy. Um, really um, I would say like firm but fair kind of person. Um, one of the leaders there, the the founder of it, Eric Ray. Um, Eric Ray and Dennis still, super awesome people, have figured out how to create incredible impactful value for people. And just really getting everybody on board, I learned a lot from them. That's awesome. Thinking about how to just get everybody marching to the beat of the drum. Everybody gets it. It's it's super fun to work in an environment like that.
SPEAKER_00That's great. I think that's, you know, we all have people that we look up to. And when you can name specific people at places that you've been to that make a difference in your life, I can name 15 just right off the top of my head that it was a conversation, maybe it was just one conversation, maybe it was the way that they managed me or whatever it might be. But it's almost always one of those things where they it seems like they've got everything together. Uh you try to be that person who has everything together. Sometimes that's not the case, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Sometimes it's not. Um that's so funny. Um, yeah, it happens to everybody. It happens to like me. I was thinking about this just recently. So work environment aside, I I had a kid's soccer game that I went to, and I'm going crazy at a kid's soccer game. And I'm like, why am I so crazy here? There's 10-year-olds, 11-year-olds, they they don't deserve to have like this old guy just yelling. But um, yeah, you think you have it together until you don't. And so trying to trying to identify when you may not have it together and getting ahead of that, that's helpful. That would be helpful.
SPEAKER_00And I I like the way you said that. It's helpful to have everything put together before you. You know, before you go out and you have a conversation with someone, you should prepare yourself for that conversation. Absolutely. Yeah. Sometimes we we just go say something to somebody, and that's when we are you know, I'm I'm most short tempered with the people that I care about the most in my life. I think you mentioned that you said some things to your spouse, your kids that you wish you could take back. Because we're so short tempered because we know that they they believe that we love them. We bul they believe that we trust them. And so, man, that tongue can cut, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, really hard. Yeah. I think I think about going back to the 11-year-old soccer team, man, like criticism for that age of kid, they just want to feel like you love them, that they're safe, they they've got everything that they're gonna go home and they've got a roof over their head. I feel like yeah, it can be really scary for them. So you've got to be careful. And if you take that family, I want to say mentality, and you take that to work and you think about all the people who need to feel safe and they've got their own things that they've got to take care of. Being cutting at work, it sucks. People talk about having a bad manager or a bad somebody that they they really don't want to even encounter at work, but they have to. It's like, how do you avoid being that person while still getting stuff done? And that's I think that it's easier, it's it's easy to do. You just have to care about people a little bit. I think when I was in college, you take courses, what are they, the humanities courses, just about random world societies, and you question like, do I really need to learn about like this tribe out in the middle of nowhere? But it's almost like going to the extreme on understanding something really obscure helps you to understand the things that are closer a little bit better. It makes understanding weird, like crazy stuff kind of feel wasteful. So you don't want to keep doing it. Maybe you find some intrigue, but it helps you to really hone in and identify and maybe even quantify how you can do better in in areas where it doesn't, it didn't before that moment seem like you could. And thinking about how do I identify, which is a battle for me, how do I identify what I'm feeling? How do I manage what I'm feeling better so that I can use it to not like help self-destruct? Jeez. If worst case, don't fail terribly. Best case, how do you leverage it to then build up better skills? And how do you say, like, this emotional skill that I have? It's a hard thing to even, again, quantify. But how do I make it so that I am aware of myself, I can recognize this, and then I'm motivated to like keep it going in the right direction or not not tank. And then do I leverage that like in soccer? I should have kind of I couldn't have had any empathy for these little 11-year-old kids that are out there. So I'm like yelling like a crazy person, but I'm like, I could have had more empathy and I probably could have cheered for them instead of yelled at them to stop like slide tackling my kid. But leaving that aside, I think understanding how all of the aspects of how to actually build your emotional intelligence and quantify that better and actually go through a checklist and say, am I doing these things? Am I getting better? And and is it affecting my work in the right way? Because whether whether you think about it or not, I I think it's like Teladega nights, Ricky Bobby's daddy's like, first, you're last. And it's kind of like one stage always going forward. And if you're going, if you're not going forward, you're not going to be winning. And you need to try to always go forward and always be better. And I think that that's something that's really hard with emotions for me. Just trying to think about it, trying to understand what am I feeling, how can I do this better, and how can I leverage this so that people feel like I care more.
SPEAKER_00So you're you seem like someone who's who's really in touch with the fact that you, how you feel matters and and your your presence in the room is something that's important. What role does self-care and self-regulation take in that? I mean, obviously, you're a person who stays in good shape, you must eat right. What are what are the things that you do to serve yourself so that you are prepared to be the best that you can be?
SPEAKER_01I I first off, I need to eat way less sugar. I eat way too much sugar. Uh my wife's constantly telling me this. But I I think if you have a sound, if you're if you can keep yourself physically strong and really it helps you to stay awake, it helps your mental clarity. So I do value that and I do try to focus on it, by the way. Um, even though I do eat too much sugar uh and caffeine. But I feel like it's really helpful to regulate your emotions if you can exhaust yourself a little bit. Um the other night I was feeling just tense. It was like eight o'clock at night, and I went snowshoeing for like two hours that night. Went up, summited up at Alta, came down, I felt a hundred percent better. And just knowing what helps you to regulate is helpful. Like if you don't know what you what helps you get off of like the crazy roller coaster, that's a problem. So you got to figure that out fast. For me, it's it's running, some form of just exhaustion.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. I no anything that you can do outside for me helps me that way. I think you've got to find what is your therapy. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And as long as your self-talk during that event is like, I'm hiking to the top of this mountain and I'm gonna be awesome, whatever. If your self-talk is like just frustrated and angry the whole time, that's something to try to think about as well. Try to avoid it. And if you can't avoid that, what try to get to root causation. Yeah. Why am I so angry? Is this something that I can change? If I can change it, what are the steps? If I can't change it, how do I manage better? Because I think there's some things that you're just not going to be able to get out of. And maybe you can, but not a time frame that you feel like is acceptable. You've got to figure out just how to deal with it.
SPEAKER_00You know, self-talk, we could have a whole episode on nothing but self-talk. We had an HR manager named Tara Nino. Uh, she's done a lot of HR work and now owns a travel company. But she talked about uh self-talk. And I said, Ziv, if you talk to your associates or people you work with, the way you talk to yourself, how much time would you spend in HR? She said it would, you know, it would be a lot. I mean, self-talk is one of those things we've got to get better at, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. And it even even me, I want to say that I say nice things to myself, but I don't. I think everybody has their their their own worst critic, and it's a mean critic. It's so mean. And it makes you it makes you scared. Like my my internal voice, if I don't just power through it, then sometimes you'll just avoid stuff. And I have avoidance tendencies in general. Like I want to avoid pain. Most people want to avoid pain. It's rare that you just want to tackle it head on. But you have to find ways to do that. And managing your self-talk will make it so that you can avoid things less. Yeah. I want to say you're still probably gonna avoid stuff, but just like really prioritize and help you to get better. Say nice things to yourself for sure. Like sincere things, though. Be sincere to yourself, like you would other people.
SPEAKER_00It really follows the same path. You know, be sincere, be real, be present.
SPEAKER_01You know, we're so silly, like we can trick ourselves into being happy. We can do auto-conviction exercises, but at a certain point, I think we know when we're lying to ourselves too much, or we're not following the path the right way. Yeah, I agree. I do believe in self-programming. I do believe that like you'll see people who are begging for money on the side of the street. That's not you. You're not that person. But what made that person that person? Did they just talk themselves so poorly one day? And they they maybe had all like I don't want to dive into like mental illness too much, but I think that you can on your own steer away from mental illness. We all have like our own little form of that that we have to manage. And I think self-talk is the start.
SPEAKER_00I I talked to a guy one time that he he's a psychologist, and he said mental illness is people who are willing to jump in the funnel and just follow it down. You know, it's that self-talk, that cycle of of bad stuff, and you're just if you're willing to jump in that funnel and go down it, you will. That's scary. Yeah. It's a good analogy. John, I've really appreciated uh the fact that you were willing to come here and and be on the show with us. Uh uh, we've had a great conversation. You've given me a lot of great information. I'd like to ask you for one more thing before we before we call it a show.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00If you could talk to someone who was just promoted this week, their first job as a as a new supervisor, whether that's over a sales team or a group of people at a restaurant or wherever it might be, a brand new leader who has 12 reports that are going to be reporting to them as their supervisor, what advice would you give to that person to be the kind of leader those 12 people need?
SPEAKER_01Well, I'd I'd say two things. First off, it's just the start. So be excited. It's a it's gonna only get better from here. And it's a great promotion. Congratulations. Um, the the second thing is I think there's a lot of stuff that people don't know, but they don't know that they don't know it. So you have to be really open to learning new things. And while you're there to train everybody else how to figure stuff out and how to do a better job, there's gonna be things that you need to learn. And maybe you got promoted because you recognize that already, but the probability that you don't know is very important, crucial to your job and to your family's future kind of aspects of your job, it's pretty high. So try to be open to it. Ask for really good feedback. Find a mentor if you don't have one already. Ask them for help constantly. Find a way to have like a weekly one-on-one. Hopefully, it's somebody who either works at your business or is at another business that is helpful for you. Get a mentor, figure out what you don't know, and just stay excited.
SPEAKER_00Excellent. John Tall, thank you for being on our show. That's it for Analog Leader. We'll see you next time.