Todd Russell: Your Way Isn't the Only Way

Todd shares what a career in relationship-based sales and leadership taught him about listening, earning trust, and seeing potential in people before making judgments.

After being told to fire two employees on his first day, Todd chose to observe, ask questions, and understand who they really were. One of those employees eventually became responsible for training across the entire company—a transformation Todd credits to listening and giving her room to contribute.

From putting relationships ahead of transactions to recognizing that a manager’s way is not the only way, this conversation is a practical look at the analog skills every new leader needs: curiosity, communication, trust, consistency, and follow-through.

To learn more, visit: https://analogleader.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

And I remember the COO coming up to me and saying, Hey, you got two people in your office, I'd fire them both and just get people you like. And then my counterpart came in and he said the exact same thing. Man, you've got two people in there. I I'd fire both of them and get two people you like.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

And my thought was Welcome to Analog Leader. Our guest today is Todd Russell. Todd, you and I have known each other for a long time. A little bit. We met uh gosh, I want to say 15 years ago. Does that sound right? At least. Yeah. So uh we we met in a at a networking group, and as I went to these networking events, I had the opportunity to meet a lot of different people. And what I found was that there were really three different kinds of people that went to these networking events. One were people who were looking for business, similar to myself, you know. The other was uh was people who were trying to get hired by those kind of people. The third person was a was an interesting person. And that was someone who wanted to come in and get everything that they could get and not give a lot. And I kind of soured me on a lot of networking events. But when I met you, I I saw something different. And you have you have become a uh a mentor to me in a lot of ways, and and and someone that I looked to to learn how to better build relationships, because I saw you as someone who genuinely wanted to get to know people, genuinely wanted to build relationships and help people the way that they needed to be helped, and you just figured that it would come back to you sometimes. So I want to talk to you specifically today about uh about how you come with that kind of an attitude, what it is that drives you to be that kind of a person, uh networking person who can go in there and truly genuinely make lifelong friendships because I consider you to be one of my very few lifelong friends.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Well, I appreciate that. And first and foremost, thank you. Those are very kind words. I appreciate that, especially coming from you. Uh I hold you in high esteem, so I really appreciate that. Um as far as the the networking side of it, um, I think you're pretty spot on. In the networking world, there's different groups and organizations that people go to, and a lot of people go in there with what can I get? Um, which is somewhat natural if you're in sales. You're always, you know, being asked for management. What's the return on this? You're going to a lunch, what did you get out of it? How many referrals did you get? Whatever. So there was that mentality of that. Um, and for me, um, it was always about getting to know people and then seeing how I could really truly help them. Um, so yeah, there's a lot behind that in my career uh that kind of built up to that. But I think in the end, um looking back, that all stems from early ages in my life, working with my dad and his business and seeing how he treated people and the relationships he had, I think that kind of stuck with me.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

So tell me about the influence your dad had on you.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Yeah, so my dad um I grew up with uh my dad owning an upholstery business, um, and he was phenomenal, the hardest worker I've ever met or known in my life. Um he would come home and have dinner with us a lot of times, and as soon as we were in bed, he was literally pushing his van, his 1973 Chevy van the road because I had glass packs uh installed my thanks to my brother. Um so it was a little loud, but he pushed that down the road to start it before um, you know, so he wouldn't wake up the kids. Um and then he'd go work and he'd stay there till two or three o'clock in the morning, come home, um, and then be gone by five or six in the morning again. So sleep for a couple of hours. And now that wasn't a regular occurrence, it was something that happened probably um, you know, every six months or so when he had these big jobs come in. Um, but just being able to work with him from the time I was thirteen years old um on up through uh when I was eighteen, uh watching him and the way he worked, um his work ethic, and then how he worked with people and how he interacted with people. Always gave the benefit of the doubt. Um he uh helped out wherever he could. Even when I knew it was hard for him to do what he was doing. Um and to me, I I was going, You shouldn't be doing that, you shouldn't be giving that guy that. He he treated you like crap, he whatever, but he would still like just offer help and assistance and and just do his best. So I think seeing that, um, he was successful in many, many ways. Um I really appreciated that example that he had for me.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

I don't know how many times I've heard the term hustle culture these days. Yeah. And you hear you hear people talk about uh you know hustle culture. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna go out there and I'm gonna hustle and do all that kind of stuff. They never met your father, did they?

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Hustle is is a little bit different, yeah. Definitely. I actually have a shirt that says hustle. Um and uh it's it's funny that you say that because it's hustle is different from when it was back then, right? So growing up in the 70s and 80s and what that was like versus today, hustling and what that's like is very different.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hustle hustle culture now means that I answer every email. Hustle culture back then means that I push the van out of the driveway so my kids don't wake up, right? Yeah. Yeah. So so uh your father obviously a big influence on you. What are some of the other influences that you had that that that caused this kind of mentality that you have where you value people?

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Yeah, uh great question. I think um I s going back to my dad just for a little bit, I think some of the relationships he had, and because of those relationships, the way those people interacted with us or me, um, I saw that there was a a right way and to me a wrong way to treat people. And I I chose the way that I figured is the right way. Um it's not right for everybody, but for me it was the right way, and that's just to assist or help people the best that I could when I could. So other people in that were would be some of the employees my dad had. Um, some of them were neighbors. Another one who really stood out uh to me growing up uh was a neighbor who was a 13th degree black belt, um, had a beautiful Fu Manchu. Um his name is Gary House, and um just an amazing individual. He would come home and and uh he was a prison guard uh among other things, and he would play basketball with me after school when I'd get home sometimes. Um I remember one day, for example, he came home, waved to me when he got home, said I'll be out in just a minute, went in his house, and I heard him yell a little bit, and I was kind of was like startled. Uh, he came back out and played basketball with me. And I'm like, what was that scream? He goes, Oh, I broke my nose at work. I had to just set it back in. So he set his nose back in. But uh that he was just another great example of somebody who uh was willing to help others and and do uh a lot of good for other people. Um But yeah, there were several several other people, uh neighbors and things like that back then that I think just influenced me in that area.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

So as you entered the workforce, uh who who are some of the people in in your work life uh uh that influenced you and and how so early on or anytime. You know, I yeah I don't want to limit it.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

So so you you just you picked Yeah, no, you're good. Um I think early on, um I saw a lot of what I didn't want to be, and that kind of was uh the negative side of it, pushing me to to I guess the other extreme. And it was people that were just out there trying to get whatever they could for them and sell whatever they could, which in sales, great. I mean, there's that cutthroat mentality, and I know a lot of very successful salespeople that are like that. Uh, they aren't people that I would uh consider uh a friend or you know, a trusted friend or anything like that. Um just people that I know that I've worked with in the past that have had that kind of mentality. Uh, it's not for me. I want to I want to have a good reputation. I want to make sure that I'm doing the best that I can for the people that I'm working for and the people that I'm selling to or working with. And so that's always been my my thought on that is I'm gonna stick to that and and not push the other side of that. So um there's always the the thought of the hunter versus the farmer in cells, and the hunter to me is just that going out and killing. And in my mind, he's going out and getting something and sometimes killing that relationship, but he's getting the cell, and he might not that relationship might not be killed for months after that, but that's all they care about was that getting that hunt, right? So I don't know if that makes sense, but that there was a lot of people like that that I um experienced um with and in throughout my career. There were there were several others. Um one gentleman who I worked with, um he was a part owner in the company that I was working for. We went to breakfast several times. Um it just he and I and talked about business, talked about relationships, and he was instrumental in a lot of different things for me as far as like handwritten notes and um books. He was very big on books and he would um always bring a book to breakfast and give it to me and tell me why I should read it and what specific parts he had highlight in the book. Hey, just read this part right here. And if it resonates with you, read the rest of it. It's a great book. So that's just some other individuals like that.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

So have you been in sales for the majority of your career then? Pretty much my whole career, yeah. Really? Okay. So what what what kind of things have you sold?

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Oh man. I started in mobile, well, I started in computers back in 1987. Wait, they they had computers then? I know, right? I remember selling uh computers with five megabyte hard drives. Wow. And um telling people back then this is all the memory you're ever going to need because of how many uh Word documents you could put on it back then. Not Word, it would have been word perfect, um, that we talked about, right? And it was in the thousands, thousands and thousands of documents, right? And so that was my first job. Uh literally started uh the same day as another gentleman, and uh all excited. I'm 21 years old, and we go in, and the manager comes in with the yellow pages, rips it in half, hands one to me, one to the other guy, and goes, There's your list, go to town. And that's literally my first um job back off of my mission is getting in that and selling that. Um loved that, did that for a little bit, and then took a little bit of a deviation from that. I I was a translator on a fishing boat up in Alaska, uh Japanese uh fishing company. And so I did that for about nine months. Um so I worked for computers for about, I think I was there five or six months and then got this opportunity and went up there to Alaska and then came back. So since then I've I did mobile cell phones um back in the early day when T Mobile was just getting started. Um what was their first name? It started with a V Verizon. It wasn't Verizon, it was anyway, but sold that for for the first little bit. So I did a uh T-Mobile, ATT, Nextel, um did that for a while and then moved into Exo Communications. That was telecom for businesses and did that a lot. Um spent a lot of time on that um doing internet. Uh worked with a lot of data centers here in Utah, uh fiber and uh dial tone, things like that. So I did that for a while, but um I did mortgages for a while, like for about three years. So uh I had a roommate and we started a mortgage company, did that for three years, like I mentioned, and it was phenomenal. It was a really good life for single guys. Um we had a great system down and it worked great for us, um, but got out of that. Uh, there was a lot of to me heartache in that, uh, because we were dealing with a lot of subprime people who didn't have the best credit and who needed um loans in a very bad way. And uh it was always surprising to me how open people get, um, especially on the mortgages side. Um, and it was heartbreaking a lot of times to talk to people about this is where you should be, this is what you should be doing, this is what we can do to get you into this box, but they don't want to give up that truck payment or they didn't want to give up whatever it was. And so I just remember that uh towards the end I had a couple like that that just blew me away.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

So let me dial into that just a touch. I uh you're you're talking to a person in one of their most vulnerable stages. I mean, it's their maybe their first home they've ever owned, and they're they're going to get out of the the rent deal and start actually putting money towards something. You've got them in a pretty vulnerable spot. And I I know there's a lot of times where uh predatory lenders type uh people, they they will take advantage of folks in that uh situation. I'm sure you had the opportunity to to do something like that. And uh tell me about that.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

So that's one thing we did is um well and I I would I just want to add to that, not not first-time home buyers, but a lot of times it were people that were in homes but were running into issues and and maybe they had a um a rate that was going up and they weren't able to afford it anymore, life had changed, whatever had happened, right? So looking through it from that lens, um going through and looking at the different things that were available as far as loans and consolidation, we did a lot of work with debt consolidation, meaning going through and looking at here's the debt that you have. Um, if you do this snowball effect, it was when people were first starting to look at that. We could actually have a spreadsheet where we'd put all their debt in, show them everything, show them their interest rates they had, the payments they were making, and help them figure out hey, if you can follow this for six months and come back, we can get you in a much better loan. Or we could do a loan right now, and this is the rate, and this is what it would look like. We'd play that scenario out with them. Um, but yeah, a lot of times um loan origination fees and then what they make on the back end as well, we are very upfront about that. Um, we never wanted to make crazy money on one person, we wanted to make a lot of money um because we worked with a lot of people. And so um, you know, everybody likes money. Uh you want money, uh, but at the same time, um, it's not something where we value that over the relationships. Uh we knew that the more we did and the more referrals we got, the more money we would make. Sure. Right? Over time. So I think that's how we structured things, not looking at how do we make, you know, a car payment. I mean, uh sometimes I guess going and buying a car off of one loan. Um we always looked at it as more of a relationship that we wanted to build.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Yeah, it's an interesting way to look at things. You know, I think that a lot of times it's very transactional. If you can take the personality out of it, you can make it very transactional, and you can look at what's the best benefit for me monetarily. Uh and it it's a transaction. But if you look at it as as I'm working with a person and the human element of that, that changes everything, doesn't it? Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

I really quick on that, I be right before I got into mortgages or before I got into that, um I was selling computers, right? And uh we had a receptionist that was working there, and we had I had I had a Excel spreadsheet that I put together for debt, and some of the other salespeople at the company were wanting copies of that or wanting to sit down and go through it. And this receptionist came up to me and she said, Would you help me with this and go through it? And I was like, Of course. And she brought all of her information and we filled it all out, got everything together, went through everything, and throughout doing this exercise, realized that where she thought she was helping her family, putting her kids in daycare, coming to work and working her eight hours a day, and then the 45-minute drive back and forth each time. Um she was actually costing the family $200 to $250 a month. And so when we went through that, I remember her just bawling and crying, and it was pretty emotional for her. And right then and there, she's like, Well, then this doesn't make sense. I think I'm done. And I I agreed 100%. I'm like, well, it it probably doesn't make sense. So um anyway, that was that, and fast forward uh probably eight or nine years, I actually was in a a grocery store. Um, and this lady came up to me and said, You don't remember me, and it was her, and she told me that story and said what a difference it had made uh for her and her family, uh, for her to go back and be a mom and realize that they were actually doing okay money-wise, and it worked out better for them. So anyway, that was a kind of a cool experience.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

It's funny how you can you can work really hard to be profitable in that, and you can you you know you do a great job to try and make your organization and yourself uh as much money as you possibly can. But you you don't remember the little things that happen every day on the wins that you have in in that way. But a day like that, when somebody comes up to you in the grocery store and says, I remember what you did for me.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Yeah, that's been memorable for me.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Yeah. So so when we met, you were you were working uh in construction sales.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

So I was with um AmeriCom, I think when we met, and we did low voltage cabling, we did telecom, and we did directional drilling. Yeah. So yeah, it was a great company. Um and and I'll say really quick, that company right there, um Ron and Pat Richter, uh were phenomenal. Those the the owners of that company, two of the top-notch people I've ever met in my life. So uh great people, great company. But yeah, we met back then. Um Cowboy Leaders to me was I think the coolest thing I had ever seen. Um I definitely wanted to participate and uh I was glad we were able to put uh an event together.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Yeah, so we so we so we ran this uh event where we we taught people how the how the horse receives coaching, basically, you know, how the horse needs consistency and honesty and your real self in front of you in order to to uh to be able to trust you, you know, to build a trust with uh ours being prey animals and uh uh predators, I should say, and then being prey animals, building that trust relationship is hard. And I remember that uh that just you just got it right off the bat. So many people we spend the first day that they're at the retreat teaching them you are a predator and this is a prey animal, and you must treat them in a way that they know what they're going to get out of you. You have to be consistent and honest and that. You just got it.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

I I absolutely loved that. I to me, I have never been around horses a ton, right? They're huge. Um love, they're majestic animals, I love them. Uh, but I just have not ridden horses or been around a lot. And so going down there, uh spending time with that uh group of people that we had, going into the round pen with that horse, you bring in a horse and getting it to come up and nudge you on the shoulder at the end uh was phenomenal, right? And I don't know if you remember this. Going through all of that, um we did the the cattle herding a little bit, um, and then we did the horse, the round pan. Um there we had to brush down the horses, and then we had to clean their hoofs out, and then we could get on them, saddle them. And go for the ride. And on the ride, I could tell my horse was walking different. And there was, I remember there was a girl from BYU that you had brought down that was in the back, and you were up in front. And I was towards the back. We had just gone up a huge hill that I didn't think we could go up, and it was amazing. But we got to the top, and everybody kind of stopped and you were you were talking. Well, when I was on my horse, we're standing there, and the horse started nud slowly moving towards a tree. And I could just feel something was off with the horse. I knew something was off. And the next thing I know, my knee is between the horse and the tree. And he's just putting a little bit of weight on there, and I could tell something was wrong. He didn't want me on him, right? And it was a little precarious because there was a branch about right here. And I remembered slowly getting off the horse, uh, away from the tree, as soon as I could get my leg off, um, and getting down, walking the horse off a little bit. And sure enough, the front hoof, he had a rock that was good size. It was about a two-inch rock wedged up in the craw there. Got that out, it was bleeding. Um, but I walked with the horse for a little bit, I think uh probably a hundred yards or so before I got back on. Um, but that was that was an incredible event to go up there and spend the time with the horses, uh, with the people that we had there, the other gentleman that we had, and um to learn from you guys. Uh it was an amazing and an event I'll remember the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

So I I've referred back to that event and back to cowboy leaders so many times throughout my career in talking to other people, whether it's uh clients or people I worked with, even while coaching lacrosse. Um, because the thing that stuck with me was uh we can have a conversation, and it can be a five-minute conversation, it can be an hour-long conversation. And you and I could leave and both have a little bit different idea of where we stood on that or what we really talked about, or what we came away from, right? What came out of that. Um but with the horse, this is this is what stuck with me is there's there's no gray area. You're either going right, you're going left, or you're moving forward. There's no gray area. So uh that has always stuck with me as part of uh the cowboy leaders event that we went to.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Oh that's awesome to hear. You know, I I would that's that's one of the things that I did in my life that I'm very proud of, and I I I wish we could have made more of a run with that. But uh such a good thing. So let's let's talk about how uh how you find the motivation to build a relationship in the way that builds trust and makes that relationship something of importance more important than the actual task that you want to accomplish with someone.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Well, to me, I I think that number one, in sales, um you're pretty transparent. Whether you think you are or you're not, you are. Um so your intentions are usually pretty transparent. Um there are those salespeople that can throw um an act on and whatever, and more of the hunter side of it, um and and get things like that. But uh kind of the pushy salesperson to me um it's really about focusing on and being genuine, focusing on the people and being genuine um myself. So I can't be fake with somebody and expect there to be a long-term relationship there. Um I an example I'll give you, um, I had an experience one time where I walked in to see a customer who I didn't sell to, somebody previously at our company had sold to. And when they came out in the lobby, the first time I met them, and they said, I hate your product, whatever, you know. And that was the first words out of their mouth. And I just looked at her and I smiled and I said, Hi, I'm Todd. Nice to meet you. And uh they didn't smile, and so I I kind of was chuckled a little bit, and I'm like, You've got to tell me what's going on. Why don't you like our product? And so that was our first interaction that we had. We had three or four interactions since then, um, since that first meeting, and now it's something where we talk uh once or twice a month and have a great relationship, and um it's really good. But it's not, I didn't go in and try to be fake, I didn't go in and say we've got to make this better. I wanted to understand, and I think that's a big part of it is being curious when you go in and talk to somebody, being curious about what it is that they're experiencing. And so from that standpoint, um, you know, there were several things that led up to that, and once I understood that and knew what it was, that was an easy fix on my side. Um so yeah, I look at it from that standpoint of kind of just being genuine.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

So we on on this podcast and through through what we're trying to build right now with Analog Leader, we talk about some of the skills that are human-centered skills that you can't you can't use an AI program for, you can't use electronic devices to to build the relationship. And some of those analog skills are are kind of foundational, if you will. And I believe listening is one of those foundational skills. You talked about going in uh curious and trying to hear what someone has to say. I think that too often, I think it was Stephen Covey that wrote it, he said, seek first to understand before you seek to be understood. Uh I think that that part of listening is really important. And I'd like your take on how you get to a place where you truly try to understand someone. Because I know myself, I when I someone tells me a problem that they have, three or four words into the sentence, I think I know what the problem is. And I start working on the solution. And I see you as someone who doesn't start working on the solution until you have the whole story. Tell me the skill that you have and and how do you how do you develop that?

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Well, I think as men, I think that's our first instinct, right? We want to fix things. And so I think that's the first instinct when we start hearing something is how can we fix this? But really, I I think if we take a step back a lot of times um and just try to understand and ask more questions. What I have found is it's usually two to three layers deep or more of questions. And uh it's fun to try sometimes of just saying, why is that? Help me understand that. And and asking deeper questions to have them rephrase or explain more about what they just said. Um, so I think that's that's a big part of it. Um listening to me. I'm always trying to listen to see uh cues. I usually have a notebook with me that I'm writing down in. Just key things. If I hear something that that stands out to me, uh I just want to make that note. Um, so um whatever that might be. And if I write it down, it doesn't matter where I write it. I'm gonna remember I wrote it down and I'll remember what that is. Something about writing, right? But um I think that's a big key for me has always been just trying to get clarification of of what that is and understanding. So reframing back to them the question, is this what you what you said? Because this is what I'm hearing, or can you help me with this a little bit more? Can you tell me more about that? Sure. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

So you talk about writing things down. I you know, I it was my grandfather at a very young age. He told me he says every person should carry three things something to write on, something to write with, and a pocket knife. And so I've always tried to carry those three things with me. And and the something to write on is something to write with didn't make a lot of sense to me until I got further on in life. And I think you touched on something that was really important, and I'd like you to expand on it just a touch. When you write something down, it's not necessarily that you're gonna go back and read it, but there's there's some kind of a connection there.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Yeah, for sure. Um I think when you write something down, there's a connection for me specifically, right? There's different personalities and and it's all different for every person. But I think for the majority of the people, if you write something down, number one, you're gonna remember it, and number two, it's gonna have more meaning. So I think with with that, um for me, with that aspect of of just writing things down, it's been key for me. Um, I mean, the Franklin Day planners, man, I used those like crazy. Uh, but I I had to either use them 100% or not use them at all. So I would be prioritizing A's, A1, 2, 3, 4, whatever, all the way through, right? And and the page was never enough to have all my to-dos on there because I would have A, B's, and C's and all numbered out. Um, but man, I got a lot done, focused on that and having that. Uh, but what I found also was just taking notes of everything and everybody that I met with. Um, I always had extra pages, and and uh that was just key for me uh to write things down. So uh I think there is something to that that if you write it down, you're going to remember it. Um, but then being able to go back to it and see exactly what was there.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

I think it says something to the person too. When you break out a notebook and you start taking notes of s of what someone is saying, it says something to them.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Yeah, even today, right? So if I were sitting here and I was had a pen in my hand and I'm on on a notebook writing stuff down as we're talking, you wouldn't think much of it. Uh now I could be writing a grocery list, I could be writing, you know, whatever, a to-do list down, but you have no idea, but it seems like I'm taking notes on our conversation, and for the most part, that's what most people would do. They wouldn't be doing other things. But on a phone, if I pull the phone out right now and started going through it, even if I'm taking notes, you'd be like, Do you want to just wait? No, when you're done, tell me and we can just keep talking. But yeah, it's very, very different.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

So that's one of the things that we talk about is that that analog skill of taking notes, it means a lot more to the person. As you said, if someone's got a note in their hand and a and a pen, you don't assume that they're searching Facebook. You don't assume that they're looking for what's what we're gonna have for dinner. But every time someone breaks out a phone, even if they are truly engaged in that process of trying to take notes, a lot of people take notes electronically. But I think that if you're doing that face-to-face, it takes some of the credibility away from you. Yeah, for sure. So listening, uh, taking good notes, those are those are key elements to uh to building a relationship. But there's something, there's another layer behind that. What's what's the layer behind that, Todd?

SPEAKER_01 33:32

To me, really is just being attentive and being present with the person. Um I think if there's there's two parts, right? You're not gonna form a a long-term relationship with everybody you meet. You'd be crazy to think that that's gonna happen. But you can form really good relationships with people and build relationships of trust with people uh in a fairly short amount of time. And some of the things to me that do that are number one, paying attention, taking notes, um, being present, but then following through on what you say you're gonna do. Um I think that's a big part of that. So I think being consistent in those areas, uh you can't be perfect. I I don't expect anybody to ever be perfect, and I hope nobody expects me to be perfect because I'm far from it. Um but I think that that those are things that lend to building that relationship and building those relationships that are built on trust and become friendships, um, maybe a surface-level friendship, but has that opportunity to go deeper.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

So, where does your ego and your goals when you meet with someone? Obviously, you have some goals. You have there's a reason why you're meeting with someone, you want to get something out of the relationship. Uh where does your ego and your goals uh how can it interrupt that or enhance that conversation?

SPEAKER_01 34:58

I guess egos first of all, uh I think to me an ego can be um something that is either a roadblock or an open sign, right? So we can we can be the person we choose to be. And sometimes it warrants one or the other. Um you don't want to be a doormat that everybody walks over all over, but at the same time, you don't want to be the egotistical person out there being, you know, we all know that guy out there. So to me, I don't want to be ever be that person all the time. Uh of course I want to have an ego, I want to do good, but at the same time, to me, I want to do good by helping everybody else do good. Um and that's I think just a part of who I am. Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

Well that's that's genuine and real with you, and I and I know that because I've seen it firsthand in the way that you treat me and the and the other people that I've had the opportunity to to see, the relationships that you build with that. You don't have uh thousand friends. You've got a small circle of people who are influential in your life that uh you are influential with them, and I don't think it's ever a goal of yours to acquire and build a list of friends.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

No, I I have uh very close-knit friends, um and I I know a ton of people. Um people than anyone I know. That's that's for sure. I wouldn't say that. But I've met a lot of people, let's say that. Fair enough. I've I've met a lot of people, right? Um but as far as the friendships and things like that, um yeah, I've I've got some key people that I've met with. You, number one, um, and then several other handful of people that I'm friends with. Um, and those are key relationships in my life. So uh that's important to me. But I at the same time I know I'm not gonna go out there and and I'm not looking for a best friend every day I go out there. Um I'm looking to not be the person that that maybe I'm interacting with is going home and complaining about. But also um, you know, at the same time I want to be memorable, but it it doesn't have to be over the top kind of thing. It just needs to be a good relationship uh built on a solid foundation.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

You know, I'm I've met people before. Uh in fact, just just last year, uh my wife and I got on an airplane to to Denver, Colorado, and I met a young man and he just he was very uh gregarious and outgoing and talked about a lot of uh things. I mean he I I'm not I'm kind of I'm kind of an introvert for the most part. And he just he wanted to talk the whole flight to Denver, and and he did. He talked the whole way there. And I thought, what a what what a nice guy, and uh he he had a lot of interesting stories and things like that. At the end of the flight, I I don't know his name. I don't even know his name. And uh I'd talked to him the entire the entire flight. And it's just kind of one of those situations where you see people who they go out and they talk to folks and you and you think that's a that's a great guy. He can really build great relationships, but I don't think he ever told me his name, you know. And I wonder what was the the priorities in in the conversation that he was having there.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

You've met people like that? Oh, of course. And flying flying is a whole different game, right? So um sometimes people are just nervous on a flight and they just want to talk. But yeah, I've ran into several people on planes like that. In fact, um ran into a gentleman on a flight where I I was doing the same thing. In fact, I was flying, I think I was flying to Denver, um, and I had my headphones on. Didn't want to talk to anybody. I had some work I had to do on the plane, and the guy sitting next to me, I was in the aisle seat, there was an empty seat, and he was in the window seat. And I remember um he reached over and tapped me, and I looked at him, like, what are you doing? And he goes, Can you see this? Look at look at this, this is amazing. Um, and he wanted me to look out the window. And so I look out the window and I'm like, okay, yeah, that's beautiful, that's great. And I put my earbuds back in and focused back on my work. The third time that he interrupted me, um, I just took my headphones off, unplugged him, put my phone away, and started engaging with him. I was like, this guy wants to talk, uh, let's talk. And so we started talking, and it actually turned out where we uh still uh talk occasionally today over Facebook, um, but he built firearms as a hobby, and uh we put together an order with some friends. He said, if you can get one or two people, and I said, I bet I can get one or two people, and we ordered 21 guns. So I had 21 people come in and order um custom guns from him, and we put one order together for that, so uh that was kind of a fun interaction. But I've had several on planes. Uh, I mean, that was one. Um, I got bumped up one day uh and got to sit by somebody and we started talking, and his uh dad was a rocket scientist, and I won't go into too much on that side of it, but his dad's best friend was Mr. Clips. And so he grew up with all those speakers and the different speakers that they were building, and his dad and another group of friends that they had on a weekly basis coming over to his house. He was one of the most interesting people I've ever met. Um, but it was just fascinating. We talked the whole trip from Boston all the way back to Salt Lake. That's crazy. But yeah, people are different that way. Um as far as conversations go, I can go up and talk to anybody. Um, I can strike up a conversation uh with anybody because I feel like, hey, we're all friends until you tell me otherwise or show me otherwise. Right? So I have no problem going up and talking to anybody, which has helped in sales.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

So tell me about that. That's one of the things that I struggle with. I mean, quite honestly, uh if I'm given the opportunity to to go over and talk to someone across the room or not, I choose not. And no matter no matter what. I mean, my my default is always if I don't have to talk to that person, I won't. Uh how do you how do you look at someone who obviously wants to talk and say, okay, I'm gonna set aside what it I mean, I'm sure you were listening to something that you wanted to listen to in that. How do you how do you set aside yourself and say this person is someone that I'm going to spend some time talking to?

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Well, I think for me and my personality, um, we're all the same, right? And my dad was going back to him, um, probably the first person that ever said that to me. Uh, the first person who ever was like, it doesn't matter. Like, I am who I am, and people either are gonna like that or they're not. That's not my problem. Uh, I'm gonna be who I am. And so I think for a big part of that going and talking to somebody for me has always just been, so what? What's the worst they can do? Walk away.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

I mean, so what? It's there's been times in my career where I've I've actually been frozen by I don't know how to start a conversation, I don't know what to say to that person. I need to talk to this person, but I really don't know how to begin it.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

Which has always amazed me actually, because I've I've we've talked quite a bit, right, about things and we've talked about different one-on-one interactions, and then I've seen you present to hundreds of people, and you are a natural. I I don't want to get up in front of hundreds of people and present. Um, but uh I'm very comfortable going up and talking to anybody, one person, uh, one-on-one. And I look at you and I'm like, well, why in the world would Fritz not walk up and talk to somebody? Um so it I I think it's just different. It's just a different um thought pattern in our heads that um we just need to understand that it doesn't matter how successful a person is. I've met some incredibly successful people in my lifetime that are the most down-to-earth people I've ever met. And at the same time, I've met some very egotistical people who are not not quite as successful as the most successful people, right? Um but they feel like the world revolves around them. Sure. So there's both sides of it. But I think really for the most part, walking up and talking to somebody and understanding that back to curiosity, I think that. If we're truly curious about somebody and we go up and start talking to them with that, uh they can tell. Um, I don't think that um you're gonna get very far if you go up and you're trying to just talk at somebody. If you're trying to talk to somebody and it's a two-way communication and you're listening and then you're having that conversation back, I think that's where that really hits. I think if it's um a lot of times going in there saying I want to pitch this to them and I want to say this to them, and or and you you have that focus of this is where I want to get, um maybe sometimes that causes that. But that kind of you know, hindrance of going up there and talking to them because then you start thinking all the stuff they could say back. Sure. But honestly, to me, um just going up and understanding that if if you truly want something, if I wanted to get to know people that you know, I I need to get to know you first. And so um if I get to know you, I earn your respect and I earn that relationship, at some point, you're gonna see a need that I have that hopefully you see one of your friends could fulfill or that connection that could help, and you're gonna make that introduction. Sometimes I may have to ask for that, sometimes that's something that I have to come in and and say, Hey, I really would appreciate it if you could introduce me to so-and-so. What would it take for me to get to the level of trust that I need to be with you to earn that? Sure. And so I've had those conversations with people in the past as well.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

I remember one time we were talking about sales, and I was expressing my frustration with trying to sell what I do to to other people. And you said something to me that it's become kind of a mantra for me that I that I go back to all the time. You said, figure out the problem you're solving first. If you're not solving a problem, you don't have a product. And that really that really struck me, and I think that's one of the things, even as a as a supervisor over people, you have to if if you're going to lead people, you really have to be the person who's helping them get past the problems that are in front of them, whatever those problems might be. So recognizing that problem to begin with is really a key. And I think that sometimes I I thought I knew what the problem was, and as you said, you don't understand the problem. You've got to find the problem. Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Yeah. So I think with with you, well, number one, in in sales, that's the main thing, right? If if you can solve a problem, great. If you just have something that you're selling, you've got to wait till people to come to you for that, because they've got to have that specific need uh or want to come in and get that. Um I think our discussion was around how incredible your system was, but who's the audience?

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

And who does that specifically need to be, and what do they look like? And going from that and breaking it down, and what parts of it fit where. Um specifically, I think that's where that came from. Um because uh you've always had an incredible message. Uh Cowboy Leaders to me was the very first instruction side of it, um, which was amazing. I still have notebooks of pages full of uh seminars and things like that that we've um uh participated in. And it's been some really, really good knowledge. I think when you're referring to um our conversation around that specific, who do you want to sell to and what is their problem? Um sometimes we have a really wide view of this is our audience, when in reality this is our audience, and if we are specific to them, we can be a lot more direct and a lot more successful.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

So I think that was true with some of the stuff you were doing early on.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Yeah, it certainly certainly helped me to narrow my message down for sure. I mean, there's been there's been a lot of things that you and I have talked about that have made made sense to me and made things better. So on our on our podcast and and uh in a lot of the work that we're doing right now, we're we're talking with people who have just been promoted. Uh they're relatively new to supervision. And supervisors, whether they're supervising a sales team or a manufacturing group or salespeople in a retail setting, they all have uh the same human elements in front of them that they have to deal with. Uh quite often the people who get promoted are the best workers, and they get promoted because of their performance in being a great worker. I do the job well, so therefore I'll I'll supervise people who do the job well. And that doesn't always equate. So we're finding that there is that niche audience of supervisors who were great workers and now all of a sudden have a group of people that to lead. What are the what are the pieces of advice that you would have for people in that kind of a setting and and how would you how would you tell them to uh center themselves before they start leading their team?

SPEAKER_01 49:19

Yeah, I think that's great. Um we've talked about that as far as uh looking at that, centering them is what I'm saying is a great starting point. But I think talking about that, we've talked a lot about that in years past about uh people being promoted because they perform really, really well as a salesperson, they make them sales manager, and they're not a good people person, right? For some reason it doesn't work out. I think the biggest key in that is uh expecting people to do exactly what that person is doing. A lot of times in sales, that's not gonna work because your personality of going out and talking to people versus mine, or how we're gonna sell, or how we're gonna that process is gonna be different for every one of the salespeople that you have, and expecting them all to do exactly the same, use the same script, use the same whatever, that just it's not gonna work every time. And so having that person uh come into a management position, I think that the number one key thing for them to do is understand their way isn't the only way, and it it may or may not be the best way, but it worked for them and it was the best way, but there are other ways people can be successful in that position, and it's really about managing expectations, helping people understand what they are capable of, um, and uh helping them understand that you see that I think is a big key. Um, I've got a couple um stories I could tell you about that, I think that were impactful for me. Um but and then just being open with people. So the biggest thing to me is the biggest failure points on that are communication, uh, lack of communication and higher expectations than what um they should have on people. So I I think that if your expectations are real and your communication is good, I think you can have some really good success. But it's about helping people become all that they can be, basically, right? Yeah. Uh the little army slogan there. But um, yeah, I think that's key. I'll share a quick story. Um I hired on to a company and they put me over a a group of offices, and the clientele, we were it was about a $28 to $30 million uh group, and I managed that and had about 800 to a thousand employees that I was ultimately responsible for working on that side of it. The office that they put me in had two specific people in there, and I remember uh the COO coming up to me and saying, Hey, you got two people in your office, I'd fire them both and just get people you like in there. And then my counterpart came in and he said the exact same thing. Now, you've got two people in there. I I'd fire both of them and get two people you like. And my thought was, I don't even know these people. I am not gonna go in day one and fire these people. Um, so I went in and I I worked with them for two weeks and just had a brief meeting with them when I first went in, introductions, got to know them, and said, tell me about your day. What do you guys do on a daily basis? What do you try to accomplish? And man, how can I help you get that? And kind of set that expectation. And after two weeks, um, we sat down and we talked about things, but I had had the chance to look at how they worked. It was very clear to me. One of them just wanted a job. They just wanted somewhere where they could come punch in every day, do the minimum amount of work, watch movies on their phone, and and get done at the end of the day, right? Now, she did her tasks, she did what she needed to get done during the day. The other one was the direct opposite. She did everything she needed to do during the day, but then went and found everything else that she could do to fill the gaps and how she could make things better. She kept a notebook, things that we can improve, things that we could do different, things where I can do if I run out of things to do. And she was phenomenal. Um, ultimately, I moved the first one out of my office. I didn't fire her, but I moved her to a different office. Um, the one that was there, I pulled her into my office. I said, Hey, I I want you to take on more responsibility. I need you to think about that. Think about all the clients that we have right now who I'm working with, and how can you step in and be a bigger part of that relationship? How can you be a bigger part of what we're doing here in the office? What tools do you need, or what people do you need to help you? And it took her a minute, and she looked back and she's like, Are you really asking me for this advice? Like, you want me to help? And absolutely, absolutely I do. And over the next couple of weeks we put together a plan. Um, we got the people hired that she wanted. I had her involved in the interview process to help with the assistant in the office and went through everything. Now, fast forward um six months, and the COO came to me. Uh, we were actually in a meeting. CEO and my counterpart that both told me to fire this lady, both came and said, Hey, she's phenomenal. I don't know what you've done, but she is phenomenal. I'm like, I didn't do anything. This is who she is. Um, I think you guys were holding her down. My counterpart came in and said, Hey, I want her to come over and work in my office. Would you mind switching out? I was like, absolutely not. She's staying with me. So um that was great. I loved that part of it. Uh, but it's just an example, I think, of people who uh my expectations for her when I went in, I didn't know who she was, I didn't know what to expect from her. So I wanted to spend that time with her to understand her and see where she was at. And it was very clear, it was a night and day for me. She was somebody who could perform much more. And ultimately she became training over the whole company. Um, and she did that like it was just a sliver of what she did during the day. Um, so four or five years later, after I had left that company, um, she reached out to me on LinkedIn and sent me a message, and she said, Hey, I just want to let you know you were one of the most impactful bosses I've ever had. And she called me Jefe, and you're you're the most impactful jefe I've ever had. And she goes, I've I've done so much. Graduated from college, uh went back to school, uh, finished that, and then taken on much more responsibilities. And so I love that side of it. It wasn't anything I did except for a listen, I think, really, and empower her to be who she really could be, which to me was phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 56:46

So that all started with you not having an expectation of the of the conversation to begin with, right? Yeah. Going in and saying, hey, what do you tell show me what you do, tell me who you are. What kind of key things do you need to learn about a person to understand why they come to work in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 57:02

Well, I think if you pay attention, you can really tell people that want to be there versus people that are just there, right? And every company has it. Every single company at all levels. Um, there are people who really want to be there and want to improve, make things better for the company or for their team or whatever it might be, or there's actually people that are just there because they need a job. Not that there's anything wrong with either one. Um I think it'd be hard to get just one of those. Um, but really, I think if you can watch people talk to them about their job, you can tell if they're passionate about their job, if they like their job, if they're like on the fence, lukewarm about their job, or if they're negative about their job. Nine times out of ten, you'll get a negative response pretty easily. But if you really g dig into it about why somebody's uh their job or what they're doing, I think it's um pretty telling the answers they get back, and I think you can go through that and sift through it pretty easily.

SPEAKER_00 58:13

And so as we've been talking, I I've heard you talk about salesmanship skills, I've heard you talk about, you know, solving problems and and leading people. It all seems to kind of go full circle around to the interpersonal skills to begin with. It's it seems like whether you're selling someone something or you're supervising someone, it's really the interpersonal skills and the communication portion of it that that is the foundation for every conversation that you have with someone, no matter what the outcome that you're looking for is.

SPEAKER_01 58:44

Yeah. I think the the communication piece is huge, right? Going back to cowboy leaders. It's the communication is so vital. Uh whether we're speaking English, Japanese, uh, Spanish, whatever the language is, right? Uh there's always gray areas when the two people are talking. Uh you can be very direct. Yeah, of course, you can be direct. Um, you can have like, here's what we're doing, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. But at the same time, there's gonna be some gray area in that. So just making sure that you pay attention to that and that you're very clear with that, I think that's key. I mean, there's been several conversations I've had uh or been a part of that I was certain this is very cut and dry and was wrong. It it my vision versus the vision that it was was off. So that was something that um I think it's just a part of really paying attention, trying to understand, and clarifying.

SPEAKER_00 59:52

Yeah. So I'm gonna ask you two last questions. Uh and the first one's gonna be it it'll be as difficult as you want it to be, I guess, but but here's the first question. We meet people all the time who you can tell have maybe even nefarious intention. You know, they their goal is really to do something for themselves, their goal is to gain uh money, status, whatever it might be, and to use you as a vehicle to help improve their situation in life. Uh when you see those kind of people and when you have interactions with those kind of people, whether you recognize it right off the bat or it takes a few conversations, what do you do when you finally decided that uh this isn't a good relationship for you to be in? Tell me how you how you deal with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

Wow, that's a good question. Um so sometimes that happens right off the bat. That you can tell that's what's happening, or um, you get that vibe right from their personality or the way they're acting or whatever. Um yeah, there's been situations I've been in where people have come in and thrown their religion at me of why I should trust them or um whatever else. To me, those are all red flags. Any immediate nose. Um, I'll throw a wall up pretty quick. Um if somebody's trying to justify to me why I should trust them or telling me why I should trust them, that's another red flag to me. Um I think that your actions and your words are gonna speak for who you are. So if you're coming in and trying to use something other than your actions and words, to me, that usually says there's something going on. So it in those instances I think it's okay to listen or to maybe sometimes give an an audience. Um but sometimes you know right away I I just don't have time. Um and I've been very blunt with people in the past and and when this has come up, and if I if I don't feel good about it, if I'm not getting the warm fuzzies, or if I I honestly feel like, hey, there's something going on here, I'll just stop it and say, hey, I I don't think this is a good idea for us to get together. Not the right time, whatever might be I I try not to make something up, I'll just say not the right time or whatever, and and push it off. But yeah, for me, I think that's a that's a big issue because it happens a lot. Um I've had a lot of that in my career.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:33

I think it happens to every one of us, you know, and and I I I look back, I can remember one specific time that I watched someone who was working the room, if you will, at a at a uh event, a networking event that you and I were both uh attending. And and I'd spent uh 15 minutes of my life that I will never get back listening to that person and thinking to myself, wow, I don't like this person. I you know, and I just I just listened and I kind of nodded my head and I kind of tuned out and whatnot. Uh and they went over after I had finished the conversation with them, they went over and talked to you. And I seen the conversation only lasted a few minutes, and I was kind of surprised. And I said, Hey, what did you think of that guy? And you said, Well, I don't uh I didn't have time to form an opinion about him. Uh I I just something didn't feel right, and I and I told him, I said, uh, I'm really busy right now, and uh I'd love to talk to you some other time when I when the time is right, but it's not right. And I thought, man, that was so that was so direct yet not mean. You know, you didn't tell him there was anything wrong with him. You said, I'm not in the right space right now to talk to you, I've got something else to do. I think the fact that you took responsibility for your own feelings is what really made it acceptable to that person.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:50

Sure. Yeah, I think um there's nothing wrong with being direct. I I welcome that in any conversation. Um I think that's a really good thing to to have is the the directness. Um to me, when you when I feel that uh early on in my career, sometimes I would uh just say in the back of my head that you know, d self-doubt or whatever else, that no, come on, you you don't know this guy, you don't know what they're after. Um they might be really good, they might be, you know, somebody that is is good to know, who knows. Um but yeah, after so many times of getting to know people, and the more experience you have talking to people and getting around them, um you really have that sense of of who people are and what their intentions are. Now, I'm gonna go off on a tangent here. Please. Which if you know me, I do a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:49

But probably not enough though, Todd.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:53

Back in 1986, I had a teacher that showed us a study uh that I cannot remember the college it was done at. Um, but the guy who invented uh the lie detector test, right? He spent 20 years after he um invented that studying plants. I don't know if you've read this. Uh he would hook it up to plants and he learned that he could think a thought and the plants would react. And it was he learned in a positive or negative way. So if he had a negative thought, man, the light, the detector was going off like crazy. And what it was is showing the electric uh electricity within the plant, the power, the energy, um, getting really excited. Uh not in a good way. Or if he would be nice and genuine and compliment a plant. This is a little far fetched and weird, I get it to some people. But this is 1986 that I heard this, right? First time. And going back, looking at that, uh Um, and that whole experiment he shared with us, he did another experiment where he had people come through a room and just walk through the room as a base study and had however many 10, 20 plants hook up and just this nice sine wave of of just energy uh on all the plants. And then they would walk through and they would say nice, pleasant things to the plants. Oh, look how green you are. My goodness, look at those leaves. Whatever, you know, and the plants still would have that same, maybe a little bit bigger sine wave, but it was nice curve uh on that sine wave. Then uh he had somebody come in in full mask, all black, grab one of the plants, shake it, rip it to shreds, yelling profanity, stomping on it, and walk out of the room. Every plant in there was going off the charts, crazy, like back and forth on his little machine. So he that was fascinating to him. He wanted to study that more. He had that same gentleman walk in in the next group going through, and nobody said anything, they just walked through. Before he got to the door, the plants started getting edgy. As soon as he touched the door and started walking in, they started going crazy. Now, um, I have found parts of that study since then. Uh, it's been a long time, but I have recently found parts of that study. Uh, it's fascinating to me, but it just goes back to all of us having energy. We all have that. Uh that's what we're made out of. And so how we carry that and what we choose or how we choose to be uh presenting ourselves to others, um, it's natural. So whether we have a natural thought of um coming in and man, how is Fritz doing today? I remember last time we talked, he was thinking about this or he was thinking about that. Where's he at today with that? How's this family doing, or whatever? And being genuine about that and knowing that, versus coming in and going, oh man, I gotta talk to Fritz again. Um I know he's gonna ask me for this and this and this, or I'm gonna ask him for this and this and this. I can't leave today without having this, these three things from Fritz. I really need this, or if I'm a sales rep, I really need this sell. I I'm not gonna be able to make my mortgage payment if I don't get this sell, Fritz. So whatever that is coming in, that energy is there. Whether the person is perceptive for that or not, who knows?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:30

But that's that's just something that I've observed and something that's always been really interesting to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:36

So that's fascinating. That's and that's a great tangent to get off on because I think that quite often we make things up in our mind. It's like if I have to go talk to an employee about their attendance, I'll be, oh, they're gonna be upset, they're gonna, you know, this is why they're missing work. And I and I've got the whole scenario built in my mind before I ever even go in and talk to them. Wait. Wait, you do? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So so then then you have the conversation, and it's like, well, that didn't go so bad. And all the stuff that I'd build up in my mind, none of it happened. You know, I think we do that all the time as human beings. But that's one of the things that we need to understand is that whatever intention we bring in, whatever pressure and stress and that aura, that energy that we bring in, it's in the room once you enter the room. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:23

Yeah, for sure. And I and I think one of the biggest things I think people need to do is just get over themselves. Like really get out of your own way. Because you can't be somebody you're not, and you can't expect others to be something they're not. Yeah. And so I think for the most part, when people look at um relationships and sales, for example, or growing up and talking to people, there's a fear um of going up and like, what do I say? What if they say this? What if they say that? What if we build that in our heads? It's not even just in that, that can be in a relationship, it can be with our family, it can be a discussion with our kids, our older kids. Um that can always be there. But I think really um paying attention to the situation and understanding that you're no different than me. You may have um gone down this path or whatever, but we're still the same. Um you know, we both put our pants on one leg at a time. Um it it's it's all there. So it doesn't matter, you're not gonna pay my mortgage if you like me or don't like me, right? So you don't pay my bills. Um now if it's a client, okay, I get that. But being genuine, going out there and being a good salesperson, I think that is building that relationship. That's I think where I've I've always focused my career, I think, on relationship um sales, so it's not been transactional. That's something I would have a hard time with. But anyway, going back to that, I think that it's it's very much uh how we perceive things. So, one more thought really quick. Um Affirmations are something that have been really big. Everybody has affirmations, and I'm saying that with an accent on purpose on that. Um, there's a book I think I've shared with you called The Great Little Book of Affirmations. Right. I absolutely love it. I have it on Audible, and I've listened to that thing probably 50 times or more. I've actually found the book and bought the book, um, and it's it's incredible, but it goes back to um not saying who you are, but asking yourself questions in a positive way, which has been pretty amazing. And through coaching, I coached lacrosse for um 15 years or so, um, learned a lot through coaching. Was not the best coach, I think, early on. Um didn't know anything about lacrosse, number one. My son wanted to play, they needed a coach, so I went and coached. How about four different books of how to coach lacrosse? Went through and picked different things from that, learned from other people that I was around or saw, um, but kind of fell into how I wanted to coach and really cared about the team, cared about the boys individually. Um didn't always care about winning uh because I I saw that uh that wasn't always what mattered. Um winning to me was not necessarily what the score was a lot of times, but how the team was in losing um or defeat. And so um I think that was something to me bringing those boys on um towards the end, um, working with them individually and seeing how they perceived things, and this gets a little bit deeper with the different coaches that I had come in and present to the boys about different um ideals and uh mentality around coaching and around playing, and around what their role versus identity was, or things like that. I I think that was key. That was something I didn't teach them, it was something another coach came in, a business coach that I knew, and was able to teach them and was very impactful, it made a huge impact on the team. Sure. But I think that's true throughout every aspect, whether it's our personal life, sports, or business. I think that understanding who we are, being genuine and being open uh to learning and learning from others, I think is key.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:59

So I I there's something you touched on that I I I have to accentuate a little bit. Uh you said I didn't always worry about winning. You know, winning is a lagging indicator. Yeah. And I think a lot of managers look at winning, look at the end goal, and they say that's our goal. Our goal is to win the game. Well, if that's what you look at, yeah, there's so many things that are missed, so many steps that are missed in the in in between. And I like to say that leadership is in the little things. It's in the it's in the what leads up to a win, what gets us a win, what are the things that I have to coach individually from each person? Do they understand their jobs? What are the small parts that everyone does well in order for us to be able to win a game? And if you focus on the winning, you never get there.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:48

Yeah, no, I think that's perfect. You I know you've seen a lot of this um in your career. Um for businesses, a lot of time the management will come out and say, this is how we're going to do things. Especially on the plant floor, right? Or um manufacturing or something like that. Um, but any business, this is the setway of how we do things. And to the management, it might make complete sense. To the people actually doing the work, it makes no sense. Because they're down there doing it, and they're like, man, we could be doing twice as much if we just changed this and this. And we could be a lot more effective, save a lot more time, charge our customers less if we did this and this. And it's being able to have that open dialogue with those employees or having those employees have the courage because they know they're not going to be shot down, because they know they're they're valued, to share that opinion and be able to share that with the company. Uh I've seen companies make incredible um efficiency efficiency changes, um, being able to listen to their employees and make those changes that make sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:06

I I always say that every KPI is delivered by a frontline worker somewhere. Everything that you measure is delivered by someone who's doing the job. It's never delivered by the leader, it's never delivered by the manager, the CEO. All those people are a support group to the frontline worker. So it's really how how do we pull as much out of that frontline worker as possible and make their jobs enjoyable, make sure they're listened to, make sure that they're comfortable with their leadership. That's the job of a leader. So, in that, I'm going to ask you the last question that we have before we sign off here. If you were to talk with someone who was just promoted, they they had a they were a great salesperson and they were just promoted to lead a sales team of 12 individuals. They were now going to be the supervisor or the direct frontline leader to these salespeople. What advice would you give to that person on day one?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:58

Well, that's a long list, I think. Uh number one would be to get to know the people, what their expectations are, what they think their expectations what so what their expectations are for their job, then separately what they think they're expected to do at their job. Because a lot of times I think those two things can vary. Um but making sure you understand those. So first of all, what what do you think you're expected to do here on a daily basis or what do you expect to accomplish here every day when you come into work. Um understanding that from somebody um and getting to know what that is, um, getting to know what they want out of the job I think is key. Uh understanding that just because you were successful or you have been successful at something doesn't mean that uh other people can follow that exact path and be successful. Um so uh I think success is a wayward path for a lot of people. Um whether it's um learning um things that work for them, I think we all learn from other people. Uh and and hopefully some of that sticks that works and and we learned that. But those are the first two first things to me that would be important. Number three is to understand um, you know, what is the goal here for the team? How do they contribute? How does each person contribute? And is that clear expectations for them? Um and then how does the team work as a whole? If you have a team out there that's just a bunch of people wanting to go out there and be independently successful and that's it, and not share, which I've been a part of. Um I've gone to successful people I've worked with before in the past and said, how what is it that you're doing? And I had one that was basically, yeah, wouldn't you like to know? Yeah, I would. That's why I'm asking. Um, but you know, felt like they had to protect that. Um and really uh uh for a team, you want everybody to be successful. And the reality of it is there's unless you're in a specific market or uh position, for the most part, all of us, there's so much out there for all of us to to be successful in most businesses. So being able to share um things that make a good salesperson or that make you successful, what is it that you're doing that maybe maybe I want to do some of that, maybe I don't. Maybe something else is gonna work for me, but but having that open dialogue, I think, with the team, uh, and understanding that how each one of them are being successful, um, and being open with that dialogue, uh, I think is important. Um but yeah, being genuine, being curious with that team, um, and then understanding how you can help them be the best people they can be. So, how can you help them succeed in their job? Um, sometimes it's not always about the tools, but it's about the support and the belief. So if you believe in them and you show them that you you're there to help them, I think that goes a long way. So those three or four things right there, but that that's what I would say.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:18

Excellent, excellent advice. Excellent advice. Yeah, Todd, thank you very much for being on. Thank you. It's real rare when I get to have a a true friend on the show uh that uh that knows me as well as you know me and uh that we've shared so much together. So I appreciate you being willing to come on and and share some of your thoughts on leadership with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:36

Yeah, I appreciate you. You've been a dear friend for a long time. I really appreciate you and um look forward to many more years. Excellent friendship.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:46

That's Analog Leader with our guest Todd Russell.