Mark Carpenter: Lead Like a Person, Not Like a Position

 In this episode of Analog Leader, we sit down with keynote speaker, author, and leadership facilitator Mark Carpenter to talk about what it means to lead like a person, not like a position.

Mark shares how leaders can create better workplaces by listening intently, communicating intentionally, and recognizing people individually. He also explains how storytelling can help leaders communicate important lessons, build trust, and connect everyday work to a greater purpose.

From the difference between leaders people love and leaders they leave, to the dangers of putting processes ahead of people, this conversation is full of practical insight for anyone learning how to lead others.

#AnalogLeader #Leadership #PeopleLeadership #HumanLeadership #FrontlineLeadership #Storytelling #MarkCarpenter 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

The supervisor comes on, asks the same questions, and says, Well, I need to talk to Thomas. And she's like, You you can't talk to Thomas unless you're doing some seance because he's not alive anymore. And so I can't let you talk to Thomas, but I want to be able to take care of this. I want I want to meet my obligation.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

And he said Welcome to Analog Leader. Our guest today is Mark Carpenter. Mark, I'm so glad to have you on the set today. You and I have known each other forever. I mean, we went to school together. I remember the first time I met you was probably in like fifth grade and been a friend since then. So I'm excited to have you here. Thank you for coming on. Tell us, tell our audience a little bit about you.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Well, other than I'm one of your oldest living friends, is what that kind of sounds like. We have known each other a long, long time. So I'm a keynote speaker, an author, a facilitator, and I'm on a mission to help us bring greater humanity back into business leadership. I help leaders see the importance, the value from a hard dollar standpoint as well as just a better workplace environment of treating people like people when they come to work and not just like positions.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

You know, I love the term humanity. I was an hourly worker for the majority of my starting part of my career and then was promoted to a supervisor over hourly workers. And I always felt like I was there to do a job, and the leadership that I had kind of reinforced that. You're a set of hands, you're a backbone, you're the muscles that's going to do the job. I was a welder to begin with, and I felt like the only time that I was effective in my job was when I was there performing a task. And early on in my career, I had a I had a young uh younger leader, his name was Dave Peterson, and Dave taught me about compassion and taught me a little bit about humanity, and he treated me like I was a real person. And he sat down and said, Is this what you want to do with the rest of your life? You know, you have you have more in you than welding. Is this is this it for you? And how can I help you get better? And that humanity that he brought into it kind of changed my perspective on things.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah, and so think about what Dave Peterson, is that his name? Yeah, think about what Dave Peterson left behind. A lot of times leaders go into a position, they say, well, I'm here because I can make more money here, and I can have some more prestige and I can have some authority. That's great. That probably helps take care of some business needs in the moment, but it doesn't leave a legacy. And leaders who lead with humanity, who lead with compassion, they leave a legacy behind of impact on people. A lot of times I will ask people to give me a comparison between two different kinds of leaders they had. The leaders they loved and the leaders they left. And so I'm I'm gonna put that on you if that's it. I like that. Love and left. I love that. Yeah. So Dave's probably an example of a leader you loved. Uh-huh. But tell me, as you think about the leaders you loved, what are the traits you remember most about those people? What what are the qualities or characteristics you remember most about the leaders you loved?

SPEAKER_01 3:20

You know, I uh I always think when I think about leaders I love, I always bring up the name Chuck Trees. Chuck was a plant manager uh over uh Springville site of a Nestle manufacturing facility that I work in. I was a young team leader at the time. And Chuck was someone who was genuinely interested in me. Not me, the supervisor, the worker, the employee, but me, the person. Uh he knew that I had horses and he asked me about that all the time. He knew that I liked music and we'd talk about music, and he knew things about me that a plant manager, he was two levels above me, uh, normally wouldn't even know. So the genuine interest in who I was and what I wanted to get out of my job was was one of the main things that I can think about. The other one is that you always knew Chuck was going to be honest and straightforward and genuine with you.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Yeah, and I love that both of those characteristics that you talked about there. He knew you personally, but he also held you accountable. So leading with humanity is not being soft, it's not letting problems go. They're going to address problems if they're leading with humanity, but they're going to treat you like a person in the process. So let's flip the switch here. Okay. Let's go to the leaders you left. And sometimes you don't even leave the leader physically, maybe you just left them emotionally. But the leaders you left, and please do not name names this time. But what are the characteristics of the leaders you would look at as the leaders I left?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah, so that's actually probably I can think of a lot more of the leaders that I left than the ones that I loved, which is sad, but uh kind of why we're here, right? So the leaders that I left, I you know, the fact that you said left them emotionally to begin with, I think that there was more of those that I that I kind of emotionally checked out and still did my work and whatnot, but really was just looking for what was next. Uh those kind of leaders were ones that who, you know, their their priorities were the key performance indicators got met and that the boxes got checked, and there was really no, as you say, humanity to it. It was really more, we've got this list of tasks. When this list of tasks is done, then our job is finished, and when our job is finished, I'm happy. Uh those are the ones that I kind of checked out on. There were a few leaders that I left, and uh one in particular that I won't name, that I left an organization because of that person and the way that they treated me. And it was always overbearing, it was always they knew more than I knew, it was always my way or the highway. And uh there was never a question of what's going on with you, how are you feeling? There was no humanity at all in any of the conversations, and it was to a point where I felt like I can't deal with this anymore.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Yeah. Now, I I love that in the leader you left, the leaders you left, they focused a lot on business things, which is important. Did the leaders you love hit their KPIs? Oh yes. Oh, yeah. And so the business capabilities are the same. But the biggest difference in the leaders you love and the leaders you left is how they treated you as a person. It's how you felt coming into work. Did you feel like coming in and giving your very best? Probably for the leaders you loved. Whereas you just said it, you just kind of showed up, collect your paycheck for the leaders that you left. There's high costs for businesses around having leaders that people leave.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Not just in the turnover, but you think about the lack of engagement. And Gallup does a study every year about employee engagement, and it's steadily just low. And if you trace it back, typically it goes back to how they're treated by their direct line supervisor.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

By the the leader that's right in front of them. Are they being treated with humanity or are they being treated like a position? Sure. Like just a number, just like a cog in the machine to get stuff done. And that's a huge impact on organizational effectiveness and the costs that an organization has.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Right. Yeah, so that's that's one of the things that we talk about all the time in our analog leader business is that every KPI, key performance indicator, is delivered by a frontline worker. Anyone above the frontline worker is just support to that frontline worker. All of the things that we measure are delivered by the frontline. Yet all of the money is spent on levels significantly higher than the frontline. The cog in the wheel that really doesn't get the attention that we want to focus on with analog leader is that frontline supervisor because that frontline supervisor is caught right between the rock and the hard place. The rock is here's all the KPIs we have to measure, here's customer performance, here's everything that we have to do as a company, everything that we have to achieve as far as profitability and quality and all the standards that we have. And then the hard place is I've got these hourly people that show up who really just want to do their job and go home. The money helps them provide for their family and their lifestyle and whatever it might be, but they're not there because it was their dream. So you've got the dream of some entrepreneur at the top, and you've got the labor of people who would rather not be there. And the supervisor is caught right between that rock and that hard place with very little training, very little coaching on how to manage, how to lead people. That's where your book, Lead Like a Person, Not Like a Position. I want to talk about that in a little bit, but that's where it really comes into how do we bring that personal skill into the workplace.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Yeah, and I would also say that the challenges that those frontline leaders face are often driven by their next level leaders. Because that frontline leader, let's just be honest about it, they also have tasks they have to fulfill. They're leading people, but they have tasks that they're fulfilling too, to help meet the KPIs, to help achieve whatever the organization's trying to achieve. So, what kind of balance does the next line leader give to that frontline leader in terms of do tasks, lead people? Because if their emphasis is just do tasks, well, guess what? That's what that first line leader is comfortable with because that's what they've been doing. They've been doing tasks before. That's probably why they got promoted into that position. So that's what they're comfortable with. And if they aren't given the encouragement and the space, and as you said, the skills to actually lead the people, they're probably not going to do it because that's not going to be a focus area for them. And so it's impacted by that next level leader, how well that front line leads people.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

I totally agree. You know, on the shelf behind you, there's a bunch of books that uh, as a young leader, I was a I was a doer, just as you said, I'm I was a worker, I met all my goals, I came in, and it was more to please myself that I was I was the kind of worker that I was proud of. I'd always complete the tasks, and therefore the next thing would happen is they'd say, Hey, you're really good at finishing the work. Why don't you lead these people? And I found that not everyone thinks like me. You know, I was a doer and I wanted to get the job done because that's who I am. And I knew that a lot of the people that worked with me didn't have those same kind of motivations. So I wanted to learn how to lead people. And the companies that I worked for early on did not have any kind of training. I remember one company sent me to uh how to win friends and influence people workshop, you know, and it's a it's a great workshop and all, but it certainly doesn't cross the T's and dots the I's. So I started on this journey of reading everything I could read and learning everything I could learn. On one end of that bookshelf is a book that's that you wrote uh called Master Storytelling. And I believe that one of the key skills as a leader of people is to be able to take the experiences that you've had in life and what you know and turn them into compelling stories in order to help people show what they what they can do and what they what you know what could help them lead. So I'd like to talk to you a little bit about that book and and tell me where that came from and and uh explain to the audience a little bit about that book.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Well, when we were talking about a book called Master Storytelling, you know there's got to be a story behind the book itself. You'd be disappointed if there was not, Mark. So I'll give you the short version of the longer story. I had helped a friend write a book that he wanted to write, a a business book, and I was having a conversation with my wife as I was nearing the end of that process and said, I feel like I should write a book for me. I I'm not sure what my book is. And my wife said, Oh, I know what you need to write. I said, Well, how how can you know if I don't know? And she says, No, no, no, you've got to write a book about how you take everyday experiences and turn them into impactful lessons. And I said, That's not a book. That's just what people do. And she said, No, that's what you do. That's not what everybody does. And I started talking to other people about it and researching it a little bit, and I went, eh, she's right. And so with my good friend Daryl Harmon, we co-authored that book back in 2018 with the idea of helping people to teach, lead, sell, and inspire in a more effective way. Because storytelling has the impact of not just giving people information, but getting to their hearts and their minds as well. There's some great research, all sorts of research actually, that shows that storytelling helps people remember information better and remember it more accurately. And there's even some research that says stories help them find the information more credible. Think about key concepts that you've learned in the past. And there's probably been somebody that told you a story that helped to illustrate that point, especially when it comes to leading people. Because that's that's what our lives are. We're filled with experiences and stories, and those can be illustrative to help people understand what you're trying to get them to. I'll go to a concept you talk about a lot: safety. We can tell people, you gotta do this, you gotta do this, you gotta do this to stay safe, you gotta do this, you gotta do this, you gotta do this to stay safe. And they'll go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But when we tell them the story of there was somebody who didn't follow this one step, and it ended up that they lost an arm because of it. And this is how it impacted their life. All of a sudden I start thinking about am I gonna skip that step or not? Because I don't want to be the subject of that story for somebody else. I I bring that up because that was one specific story that I remember from a safety conference that I was at probably 15 years ago, and somebody was there who only had one arm, and he talked about because he didn't follow one safety protocol, he got his arm caught in the machine, and the machine ripped it off. And as graphic as that is, it sure helps you remember to be safe and why you need to be safe. And he went on to explain how hard it is to tie your shoes with one hand or even just get dressed, simple behaviors that we do every day. Well, that kind of story hits into people's hearts and minds so that they will remember I need to be safe.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

And I need to make sure everybody else is safe around me. So there's just there's just one use of storytelling.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

You know, I think that it's one of the things that really, like you say, it kind of drives the point home. It's one thing to tell someone, get down from that ladder, you could fall and break your neck. And to actually talk to them about what would your life be like if you fell and broke your neck, and to understand the repercussions of a bad decision in a way that really strikes at the heart. Doesn't feel like being attacked for doing something wrong. It doesn't feel like being reprimanded for not following a rule. It feels like genuine care and concern about the future of that individual.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Yeah, and as you were talking earlier about knowing people as a leader, that's important in storytelling too, because you'll know what's impactful to them. You know what drives them. If they don't have children, you don't want to tell a story about, well, if this happens, you're not going to be able to be spending time with your children. That may not be important to them at that time. So you have to know your audience, know who your people are to choose the story that you're going to tell. I know you talk a lot about culture, building culture within organizations. And I always say the culture is not driven by words on the wall, it's driven by behaviors in the hall. Okay. We can put the big signs up, we can have the poster out there that says these are our values, this is our culture. But culture is really driven by the behaviors that happen within an organization. So you have something up there like show integrity, as a kind of a standard value type of statement. Well, what does show integrity look like? How do you help people understand what show integrity actually means? Well, what's the story you can tell to illustrate this was a situation where somebody had an opportunity to not show integrity, but they did. This is what it looks like, and this is the result that came from it. And then when I see show integrity on the wall, I go, oh, that's what that means. Because I can see that behavior because I vicariously lived it by hearing the story.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

You know, I think that's really key to understand your audience and what you're what you're talking about. I I love the saying, you know, it's not on the it's not what's on the wall, it's what happens in the hall. I that's really seminal for people to understand that uh what you do is what people watch, not what you say. And what we write on the wall definitely is not what what people care about. I I I worked with a client one time and and they had they had sayings on the wall everywhere. I mean, everywhere you went, there were sayings on the wall about all kinds of different things, customers king and things like this. And and they were just a horrible company to work for. And it's like, what are all those signs on the wall? You know, and people would be like, yeah, that that that's what they say, but this is what they do.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

So that almost makes it worse. It does. Uh for for the for the employees that are working there. They see the words on the wall, they see different behaviors in the hall, and they know which one's real. Yeah. The behaviors are what's real. And if it doesn't match up, uh then it becomes hypocritical, the words on the wall. And then every time they see the words on the wall, they go, eh, yeah. And it disconnects them with the organization and with the other people on the team.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

So get down to the root of this. We we are hoping to help first-time supervisors, people who were just promoted, maybe they were the best worker on the shop floor, whatever it might be, but they they really don't have any aspirations of running a company someday. They just they got promoted and they want to do a good job of at the supervisory level. How can they use storytelling to be one of the key elements or the key skills that they can hone? And I believe it is a skill. It's not it's not a talent, it's a skill that you can learn. How do they how can they use that skill to become a better person that is more trusted and more present and more genuine?

SPEAKER_00 19:04

And yeah, you you said they don't have great aspirations, but if you're in a leadership position, I think you still have an aspiration of I want to be a good leader.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

I I don't think people get up in the morning and go, I'm gonna go to work and be a tyrant. I I I hope not. I think there are some. There may be a few, but I think most people don't think that when they get out of bed. They get up and they think, I want to go make a positive difference today. And how can I make a positive difference for my people? And so one of the ways that frontline leaders can use storytelling effectively is to think about what are the key concepts that I need to communicate clearly to my team. What do I need my team to really understand to be effective and to be motivated to get up and do their job every day? Sure, paycheck is part of the motivation, but people still want to get up and feel like they're contributing. And storytelling can help that because it can help them see the connection between behaviors and values, and not just company values, but their own values. And so start thinking about what's the story I can tell to illustrate this point that I need to make to my team. Sometimes people will say to me, Well, I just don't have any stories. I don't have anything that I can turn into a story. And my response, impolite as it is, is you're not paying enough attention. Because if you just look around you, you have experiences that illustrate every point that you want to make. If you just watch for them, if you look for them. It is kind of interesting. The universe has a tendency to send these stories to you if you're paying attention to it. If I'm thinking I need a story to illustrate this point, I start looking and through that week, something will come up. And it may not even be my experience. It may be somebody else sharing with me an experience that they had that I can go, that's it. That's gonna help illustrate that point. And then I've got the story that I can tell there. But it's being intentional, it's really being intentional about what is the key point that I want to make and what's the illustration that will help get there. And I'm not talking illustration about making up some fable. There's a place for fables and invented stories, but the real life stories are the ones that are most impactful because people can relate to those. They love stories because they live stories. We live stories day to day. That's all our life is, is a collection of little experiences that we have that are stories that we could tell. So, what's the story that will illustrate the key point that you want to make sure that your team understands and takes to heart?

SPEAKER_01 21:40

So that's the thing that in the book that I that really struck me, that I that I just love about the book. I mean, you wrote a beautiful book, uh, is it really talks about how the stuff that I go through on a regular basis, that's that's what I need to turn into. I I like the fact you said you don't need a big fable. Sometimes when people hear this The term storytelling, think, oh, I gotta have this big sensational story or whatnot. It reminds me of a young man who worked for me and he shoveled broccoli all day, every day. He would bring frozen broccoli bags out, empty the bags into these containers, we call them uh totes, and then he would take that broccoli and shovel it into the machine that dispensed the broccoli into this chicken fettuccine alfredo. And I remember thinking, what a what a horrible job to just shovel broccoli all day long, you know. And I started talking to him one time, and I found out that he had a master's degree in American history and was hoping someday to be able to teach high school history. That was his goal, was to be a high school history teacher. He went through college, he got his master's degree, he got his teaching certificate. He went to school and started teaching as a substitute teacher to begin with, and he realized I hate these kids. High school kids are horrible. I don't want to do this. This isn't what I want to do. And he says, I started to understand that I'm kind of an introvert and I don't do well in this setting. He says, I found this job, it pays well, and I just I can I can think about history or whatever I want to think about. I just shovel this broccoli and do my job, and then I can go home and do what I love, which is study.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

And isn't that an interesting point? That it's not the job itself, it's your perception of the job that makes it a good job or a bad job. Because if you went into that job, you were thinking, oh, this is the worst. I have to stand here and shovel broccoli. If he's looking at it as this is a way for me to just relax and I can get paid while I'm thinking about what I want to think about, nobody bothers me, it's easy for me to do, that's a totally different perspective.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

And it's a perspective that helps him feel satisfied in his work when he goes home at the end of the day. So it's not just a paycheck for him. He's feeling satisfied in that work because of how he's approaching that. And if a leader knows that, they can tap into that. And they can just keep the encouragement and that that feeling of, I belong here, I'm I'm doing something significant, and the person wants to come to work more.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Yep. So if our if our audience wants to learn more about your book, uh I encourage anyone who is leading people to read your book. Uh, where can they learn learn more about master storytelling?

SPEAKER_00 24:23

It's easy to get the book on on Amazon and Barnes Noble. If it's available both places there. Um, or come to my website, masterhyphenstorytelling.com. You have to have a little hyphen between master and storytelling. And you can you can get access uh that direction as well. Or you know, reach out to me through the website if you want to know more. We also have a workshop that we do where we teach people these skills. And as part of the workshop, you walk away with two stories that you've already got ready to go and and prepared because we have a structure that takes them through. Also, on the website, we have a little resource that we call the story catcher. And it's a free resource, it's a free download for the high cost of your contact information, just so that we can keep in touch. And it helps people, particularly who are in that situation of, oh, I don't have any good stories to tell, to say, yeah, you do. Let's walk you through where you would find that and then how that could become a good story for you to tell. So just look for the link, it's under the free resources on master hyphen storytelling.com. Uh look for the story catcher, and that'll help you as a good place to get started too.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Excellent. I, you know, your workshop that you do there, uh, I I had you come to a group of people that I manage. So I have uh several trainers that go out and teach safety classes, leadership through safety classes, and storytelling is a big part of it, and I felt like it was one of the things that would really help them. So I had you come down to Las Vegas to one of our conventions and and teach the group. And the the entire experience was fantastic because everybody walked away from there with with two solid stories, and many of them years later tell me that was one of the best trainings I've been to to understand that. So I I appreciate you bringing that up. Now let's let's let's talk a little bit more about what's going on now. You've got a new book out. Uh tell us about that book and where it came from and what's going on there.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

So you referenced it early earlier: a lead like a person, not like a position. Uh as I started working with master storytelling and as I was progressing with that, I thought this is this is good, important skills that leaders need to have, but why? What's the bigger picture? And we actually talked about that bigger picture right at the beginning of our conversation, which really is how do you bring more humanity into business? And so the concept that I came up with was lead like a person, not like a position. I was having a conversation with somebody and I said, we need more leaders who lead like people. And she looked at me and said, Well, leaders are people. All leaders are people, so if they're not leading like a person, what do you mean? And I had to think about that a little bit. And I realized that because our frontline leaders often just get technical skills, and even when they're put into a leadership position, they're saying, here's the process you run, here's policies, here's structures that you have to go through. They're given more position skills. They don't know how to lead people. And so instead they lead like a position. And this is where you get leaders who say, Do it because I said so, or I'm the boss, I know what's right, uh, I'm gonna take all the credit, you're you're just a cog in the machine. And then you create leaders that people want to leave, as we talked about earlier. Whereas if you can give people some simple people skills, particularly early on in their leadership process, it will help them lead more like people, and then you get the benefits of those more engaged workers. Now, part of what I'm promoting as lead like a person is to communicate intentionally, and that's where the storytelling connects in. Storytelling is a way to communicate intentionally. This is what I need my team to understand. These are the behaviors that I need to see from my team. I'm going to illustrate it through a story rather than just say, just do this because I said so. Or to come up with vague things like, you just need to put more initiative into it. You need to try harder. Just do more. Just do more. Just do it better. And people are like, well, I don't know what else to do. What am I supposed to do? And so we need to be more intentional about how we communicate to people as leading like a person.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Yeah, that's genius because it is really that part of it that you get trained when you get promoted to a supervisor role, you get trained on all the policies and the processes and the KPIs. You you get all that information. I remember we we had to go through training every year for sexual harassment avoidance. And uh in one union shop, we'd learned, we went through classes on how to deal with union. In a non-union shop, we'd have classes on how to avoid unions and what you can and can't say, uh, legalis and all this kind of stuff. But never once did they teach you anything about how to bring the human element into it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

And it really starts, the first skill I start with is listening. And I know you've talked about that on your podcast with other guests before, too. The importance of really listening to people. If you want to understand the people you work for, you gotta listen to them. And we don't get taught that a lot as leaders. We get taught to tell people stuff, you know, and we we get taught to watch out what you say because it could be this union problem or a sexual harassment problem. And we don't get taught, really listen to people intently and understand what's going on. If you want to get great ideas and if you want people to feel like they belong, listen to them. You'll get really good ideas from those frontline people because they're in the trenches dealing with it. If you want to know how to improve your customer service, listen to the people that are dealing with the customers on a daily basis. If you want to know how to improve a manufacturing process, listen to the people that are doing the process itself and try to understand their perspectives on what's wrong and how they could fix it. And if when people feel heard, they feel like they matter.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

They feel like they belong. And that's going to get the best from those people when they feel like they matter in an organization.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

You know, one of the things that we always talk about when we're talking to frontline workers is what has to be done, and that we have to be profitable, and we have to get the work done, we have to work with good quality. You know, that's the one thing that everybody knows. You hire someone, they know they have to be, they have to perform. They know that the company has to be profitable. They know that they have to complete the tasks that they do. You don't need to beat that over the head of them. What they don't know is do I matter? Am I important to this organization? If I leave today, will they just replace me with someone else and not even blink? You know, that's that's the part of it that becomes important. You know, here just a few episodes ago, we had on a gentleman named Trenton Nelson, and he runs a call center with 75 people on it. They they uh sell parts for motorcycles and side-by-sides, ATVs. And he said all of the good ideas on how to deal with customers and how to build even better products come from the people who answer the phones of the folks who have problems. I have a problem with my ATV, and this is the problem I have. The call center people listen to that and they they formulate ways to solve the problem. Whereas the people up the chain, they don't even know what the problem really is, and they just start coming up with solutions to things that they don't even understand.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

And and so if if an organization, let's say a call center leader, let's go to that example, is so focused on KPIs like let's keep the call time down, because then we can take more calls. And it costs us less if we're if we're taking more calls per person. They're focused on why did you spend eight minutes with that person? You're only supposed to take five. But it's those three extra minutes where they come up with these ideas. And so leaders who are leading like a person are gonna listen to that, leaders who are leading like a position are gonna say, no, you can't have those conversations. You just gotta get to the to the bottom line and and solve the solve the problem, get their part out to them. And that's the difference. That's what makes the difference in an organization being successful. But I'll go back to it, it also makes that person on the call feel like I matter. I made a difference here. We tell people a lot of what they need to do, we sometimes forget to tell them why they're doing it. Right. And that's where people will feel connected into an organization, is when they understand why they belong, why they matter within that organization.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

So if you treat your employees sharply and quickly and just with the bottom line, get the part out, whatever it might be, that they're gonna pass that on to the customer. Yep. I always believe that you should treat every single person who reports to you as though they were your finest customer. Because that's what they're gonna pass on to your finest customer. If you want them to care about the client, then you have to care about them.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Yeah, absolutely. And it completely rolls down. Um I I remember an experience my sister had. We're talking about call centers, where tragically her husband passed away young from a brain tumor. And one of the bills that just kind of got missed in that process was an ambulance bill the night that he was taken to the hospital when he passed away. So she got a collection notice. She calls the collection agency and gets this person in a call center on the phone. He asks, Who am I talking to? And she says her name and she gives him the invoice number, and she he says, I see this is an invoice for Thomas. And she said, Yes, that's my husband who's passed away, and so I'm I'm calling to take care of this. And he said, I have to talk to Thomas. And she's like, Did you not understand what I just said? And she repeated it. She said, Well, this is the invoice for the night that my husband went to the hospital where he died. And so it really is impossible to talk to Thomas. And his response was, Well, I can't deal with this unless I talk to Thomas. Here's somebody that's so focused in on their policy that he forgets to even be human with the person on the other end. So think about how my sister's feeling at this point. She's very patient. She asked for his supervisor. The supervisor comes on, asks the same questions, and says, Well, I need to talk to Thomas. And she's like, You can't talk to Thomas unless you're doing some seance because he's not alive anymore. And so I can't let you talk to Thomas, but I want to be able to take care of this. I want I want to meet my obligation. And he said, I can't do anything about this bill until I talk to Thomas. And she hesitated for a moment and said, You're telling me that the only way that I can pay this bill is if I find a way for you to talk to my dead husband. And he said, Yes. And she said, Okay, thank you, have a nice day, and hung up. And and she and she tried one more time and got the same response. Eventually, the collection notices went away because they couldn't find Thomas. And so think about the impact on that company. They they're losing revenue because they had people so focused on we have to follow this policy if you have to talk to the person whose name's on the bill. And at the same time, you're making people feel bad. You're you're dredging up negatives with people. And so that idea of treating people like people rolls down from the leadership. And it makes a positive impact on an organization if people will do that consistently.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

That's a tragic story, and I'm so sorry that happened to your sister. But oh my goodness, that is typical of some of the things that go on. And that all starts with how those individuals were treated as associates. And when the supervisor came on, just did exactly what the, you know, it just it's uh it's a culture of processes and procedures, not people.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

That's it. That's it. And if we put processes over people, we're gonna lead like a position, not like a person.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

So but before we go, I do want to mention the the third element that I recommend that we teach frontline leaders, and that is to recognize people individually.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

We you talked about how when you got that first-time uh leadership position, and they taught you what do you do with problems? How do you put people on a disciplinary plan? How do you exit people if you need to? We get that a lot. That's process. What we don't ever get is how do you actually help people feel valued?

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

How do you recognize them in simple ways? And sometimes people will say to me, Well, they get recognition twice a month. It's called a paycheck. But I don't look at a paycheck as recognition. No, I look at a paycheck as a fulfillment of a contract. Yes. And recognition means that I, as the leader, will say to you, hey, I saw what you did that was great and I appreciate it. And it's provided this value for our organization. Thank you. I'm so glad you're here. And then people want to come to work every day. And it's just simple, simple actions that you can take as a leader. Now, this ties back to listening. Because if I'm listening carefully, I know what people value and I can recognize them based on what they value. And so they all tie together. Listen intently, communicate intentionally, recognize individually.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

That's fantastic. So what what kind of things are you doing with the I I know you're you have a workshop that is associated with the book?

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Yes, so I do have a lead like a person workshop as well. And again, we're we're focused on frontline leaders, but it helps leaders at all levels. Uh I did a a senior leadership seminar uh with a manufacturing company here locally, and uh it was an eye-opening experience for them when they went, wow, this is why my people are acting like they are. And so that was great that they were rolling it down from the top, but again, it's focused on let's create organizations where people want to come to work because their leaders see them as people, treat them as people, and get that value. And so I've got a website, leadlikeaperson.com, as well. And there's a free resource there that's called Five Mistakes We Make with First Time Leaders. And you're welcome to get that. It comes in a video or some uh PDF forms as well.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

You have some great resources in both master storytelling and lead like a person, not like a position, uh, that our our uh audience would be crazy not to take advantage of. So I appreciate you offering those free resources. But even more so, uh I'm proud to introduce you to the audience to have hopefully they'll take advantage of not just the free resources, but buy the book and and read it, and if it resonates with you, then then hire Mark to do the workshops for you. I've been uh recipient of your workshops and and know the kind of work that you do, and I'm I'm proud to have you on the show and proud to call you a friend and and mentor in my life. Uh, but I highly recommend everything that you do to our audience. Is there anything else you'd like to talk to them about before I start on just some personal things?

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Well, I I am just geeky enough on these topics that I will talk to anybody, but anybody about them anytime. And so if if anyone would like to connect with me, I'm happy to connect with them on LinkedIn. That's the platform I use the most. So come out and find me there and let's have some conversations. Let's work together. This isn't going to be me and Fritz making the world better just by ourselves. It really takes all of us with a focus on how can we bring greater humanity, greater compassion into the workplace so that we can get the positive benefits of the business outcomes, but also the people outcomes that result from that.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Excellent, excellent. Thank you for that. I I I want to go back to uh kind of earlier in in you and I's relationship. Uh Mark and I played in a band uh we were in high school and uh we were preparing for uh uh an assembly with the school, and uh I think we did two songs, and remember we were practicing in another friend of ours uh kind of spare room at their house, and uh one of the things that really struck me about you at a very young age is that you were really meticulous about everything. You know, it was like I didn't understand music theory, and you did, and you were very meticulous about you know, this is off by this much. And how did you take that? I mean, I I I saw you as someone who was very disciplined in that. How did you take it from where you were extremely disciplined to someone now that understands people make mistakes and life goes on? Uh I mean the person sitting before me is not the person that I knew before. Uh and and it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

I I think it really stemmed from being in positions where I had leaders I loved and leaders I left. And when I started my professional career, I had great leaders. And I don't think I really recognized why they were so great until I had the leaders that were not so great. And so looking back on that, I go, who do I want to be? Which of those do I want to be? And how can we get more of that into the world? And so that I think has really changed a lot of my perspective of let's treat people like people. I know that's how people get the best from me, and I've seen that that's how you get the best from other people. Now, am I perfect at that? No.

unknown 42:24

No.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

I still get a little meticulous on some things. At the same time, I don't expect other leaders to be perfect either. We're going to have bad days. We all have bad days. But the more good days that we can have, and the more days where we're focusing on helping people be the best version of themselves, the better off we're all going to be. So I think really it stems from the examples that I've seen and the impact that's had on me personally.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Excellent. So so we call our we call our uh experience analog leader, and it really has to do with the analog skills, like the record player here behind you, it's it's something that you physically have to be there to listen to. You can stream music, you can you can get uh digital music in in many different formats. But when you listen to an album, there's something different about you know picking the needle up and finding the song and placing it on there. That kind of I have to be present to to feel uh what's there. We equate that kind of medium to the exact same thing in leadership where it takes a human element, it takes the person that you can feel what they what's important to them, and you can feel negative things as much as you can feel positive things. I always tell people influence is is just uh you know it's it's always there. Negative influence is influence, positive influence is influence too. It's what do you do to change the situation? And that change usually comes through a feeling, a an emotion. So the analog leader idea is how do we create those emotions in a positive way? And what are your Thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

Yeah, absolutely. And I love the analogy with the with the record player and the speakers. Because the record player doesn't give you much without the speakers. And so we we have to have it amplified someplace. So how are you amplifying other people? I think that's a great way to look at it. And it does require you to be present. That's why listen intently is the very first skill that I focus on in leading like a person. It requires presence, not just physical presence, but emotional presence. And people will feel valued, not because of the words they say to you when you're listening, but what they see in you as they watch you listening. And that presence is what helps people feel valued. And again, they're going to bring their best self if they feel valued.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

So you do a lot of live training. I do as well. And I've I'll finish a day of live training. And honest to goodness, it's the hardest work I've ever done. I would rather go out and physically dig ditches for eight hours than to stand in front of a group and give emotion and passion and true human connection for eight hours. It really wears me out. Tell me, do you have the same experience? And tell me about that. How do you deal with it?

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Absolutely. It's absolutely exhausting. And I on the introvert-extrovert scale, I'm typically right in the middle. People always think I'm an extrovert, but I'm really an ambivert. I'm right there in the middle of it. And so I need that me time on the back end of it. But that's important to understand about yourself too. What brings me energy? What allows me to be the best version of myself? And think of that in terms of the people that we work with on a day-to-day basis. What brings them energy? What wears them out? And how can we acknowledge that and uh have it help us be better leaders? And again, it's about understanding people and where they are. But yeah, it's exhausting work. Leadership should be exhausting because you're you're giving of yourself.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

Listening is exhausting. Listening takes a lot of brain power. There's studies that show that listening really well requires a lot of energy from your brain. And so you should be exhausted as a leader if you're leading with humanity, because it takes that kind of effort to make it happen. But it's worth it.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

I led a workshop the last two days. The company that I was with, they actually had an emergency at one of their plants, and a couple of people had to step away. A couple other people had to step out and take calls and get back in. And I just worked with it. I just worked around it. I got a very nice email from one of those participants today who said, thank you so much for your understanding of our situation and for still keeping us engaged and for still caring enough about what was going on that you were accepting of that. And for me, that was, well, of course I'm gonna do that. But that meant a lot to him. It was really nice to get that email, not as a validation for me, but just as a validation of the concept that people recognize it when you show some personal care.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

I had a factory manager one time. Uh she was the first female factory manager for a major food corporation. She was the first woman who was promoted to that level at the time. So this has been a while ago. But she told me, her name is Ann Coleman, and Ann told me, she says, you know, the people out there on the line, the product is the frozen food we produce. The product you produce is you. You are the product. And I think that's why it wears me out sometimes, is because I it is my presence, my listening, my my humanity that uh that's on the line. I am the product when I'm leading people.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Well, and think about that as a leader. If you're leading people, your product is the people you lead to. They may be producing a product on the front line, but you're producing them. And so what are you doing to get the best of them and helping them feel their best in those positions so that they can get the best of the product out of the front line? I think a leader's product is the is the people that they're leading.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

So, with all that, I believe that we don't often enough as leaders have intention before we start into a conversation. You've got to have a tough conversation with someone. Maybe they've missed too much work and you need to you need to talk to them about how their attendance has slipped and it needs to come back up to standard and whatnot. We we have plans for everything we do in in work. I mean, we have meetings to plan meetings for heaven's sakes. And then we s we have a problem that we've got to have a tough conversation with someone, we have no plan other than to go up there and solve the problem. I think preparing yourself for those conversations prior to them and making sure that you go in at least with an emotional plan on how the how you want the conversation to start, how you want it to progress, and how you want it to end is important.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Absolutely. And being very intentional, I like the way that you you use that word, is so important. I I say sometimes, slow down to go fast. If we take just a few minutes at the beginning to say, I need to talk to this person about how they're not meeting this KPI. They're below this standard. Well, what's my motive? Is my motive just to get the KPI up? Or is part of my motive to understand what's going on with this person that's keeping them at the level where they are? Those are totally different motives in a conversation. And if I go in with the motive of caring enough to understand, that's gonna bring the level up, but I'll come up with the solution to the right problem. Very often we jump in and say, I'm just gonna get this KPI up. I'm just gonna go in and yell at them and tell them they need to get this up, and that'll motivate them to do it, and we have this brilliant solution to the wrong problem. Because the problem may be they've got a sick family member that they're trying to take care of, and so they've been a little distracted. Or something else is going on, or they're struggling in some way, or maybe they've got other people that are not providing them with the material or the information that they need to do their job successfully, and I'll get on that person's case when it wasn't really the source of the problem in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

Aaron Powell Well, and the trap is sometimes that works.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Yeah, absolutely. And then we think that's good leadership. Or we walk away feeling good because our motive was to put this per person in their place. And if that's my motive, I can do that, but it's probably not going to bring me the best results. And it's definitely going to deteriorate relationships. But if my motive is always first, I need to understand. I need to understand what's going on with this person that's creating this problem. That they're showing up late, that they yelled at somebody, that they aren't meeting a KPI, that they didn't follow a safety standard. What's going on? Let's find out about that first, and then we can address the real problem, not the problem that I'm thinking of in my head that may or may not be the right one.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

Excellent. Mark, I appreciate this conversation. I think it's important for us to to help young leaders and and new leaders understand that their job is not to push the work. That's a function of their job. Their job is to is to support the people who are actually going to do the hard work. Uh I I like both of the books that we've talked about today. I think that they're fantastic. I'm I'm anxious to read the the new one. I I have to be honest with you, I've not read it yet, but I'm I'm going to start tonight. So I appreciate you coming on. Uh, there's one last ask I have of you before we call it a show. If you were to give advice to a new person who was just promoted over they they were an hourly worker and they were just promoted over a group of 12 individuals, they were now going to be the leader for those 12 people. What's the first piece of advice you'd give that newly minted leader?

SPEAKER_00 52:16

Carve out time to talk to and listen to your people on a regular basis. Make that intentional, purposeful time. Not, yeah, I'll talk to them when I have time. I'll try to fit them in. If you try to fit them in, they'll never fit in. But you you use the number 12. If it's 12 people, I should be talking to them probably a couple times a month one-on-one. I need to be intentional about carving out that time to do that and making that space because if if I have one-on-one conversations with each of those people very intentionally on a regular basis, they're gonna give me their best. And I'm going to understand what's going on with them so I can help them be their best. So be intentional about taking that time to lead like a person.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

Excellent. Thanks again, Mark. I appreciate you being on the show. I look forward to future conversations that you and I are gonna have.

SPEAKER_00 53:10

Absolutely my privilege. I loved being here, loved our conversation. We probably could have gone on for like three or four hours.

SPEAKER_01 53:15

You know, we could have a conversation just about the last part that you talked about that could last an hour. So I appreciate the a lot of information here. I think we're gonna have you on again, and we'll have to talk about some other things because there's some great information in both of the books that we talked about. And you and I kind of are kindred souls in the way that we believe that people should be treated at work. So I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

Yeah, thank you, Fritz.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

That's been Analog Leader with our guest, Mark Carpenter. Thanks for tuning in to Analog Leader. To learn more, check the links out below. Sign up for our Substack, and check us out online at analogleader.com.