Episode 14: When Versatility Becomes Your Value

In this episode of The Locker Room, we talk about what it means to stay the course when your athletic career does not move as fast as you expected. This conversation explores redshirting, earning trust, changing positions, building relationships with coaches, studying the game, and learning how to become the player your team actually needs.

We also get into the value of staying in one program, the reality of the transfer portal, fighting through injuries, chasing professional opportunities, and making peace when the next level does not work out the way you hoped. Through Hawk’s story, this episode reminds athletes to push through adversity, stay flexible, and take advantage of every opportunity.

The Locker Room is a podcast for former athletes navigating the confusing and often painful transition from a life centered around sports to a life outside of the game. For many athletes, walking away from sports is more than the end of a season. It can feel like losing purpose, community, and even a piece of who you are. One day, your life is built around competition and performance. Then suddenly, it's not. No schedule. No team. No clear version of who you are supposed to become next. This podcast explores the emotional weight of that transition: the identity crisis, the anxiety, the depression, the feeling of being lost, and the pressure to “move on” before you have fully processed what you left behind. Through honest conversations, personal reflection, and relatable stories, The Locker Room creates space for former athletes to feel seen, understood, and reminded that they are not alone. Life after sports is not just about finding a new career or routine. It is about rediscovering purpose, rebuilding identity, and learning that who you are has always been bigger than what you did.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

What is up, everybody? It's your boy Jalen, and welcome or welcome back to the Locker Room Podcast, the number one podcast in the world for former athletes to engage in conversations about the difficulty of transitioning out of a highly committed sports lifestyle and into normal life. The first part of today's conversation is centering around one big question What is saying at one school your entire college career teach you about patience and consistency and trust in the process before you ever see results? Because when you really think about player development, it's not just about how quickly a player gets on the field, it's also about building valuable relationships, maturing as a player and a person, and persevering through adversity. So today we're going to talk about what it means to stay the course, how you develop into an impact player over time, and why earning your role can shape you in ways of playing time that never could. And of course, I'm not having this conversation alone. I'm joined by James Hawkins, who I shared the field with in high school, where he went on and played college football for five years at the same school, had some pro opportunities, and obviously brings his own perspective as a former athlete and navigating life after sports. So whether you're a former athlete, a current athlete, a parent, a coach, or just somebody who loves the game, this conversation is guaranteed to give you something to think about. But before we get into it, make sure you subscribe to follow the show, leave a five-star review, like, comment, and share this episode with another athlete or sports fan who needs to hear this conversation. Now, let's bring it back

Introduction and Background of James Hawkins

SPEAKER_00 1:24

to the locker room.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

All right, well, Hawk, go ahead and introduce yourself, please. How y'all doing? My name is James Hawkins, former Albany State football player. Uh I was uh defensive back there, played all three positions corner, safety, nickel back. Played there for five years, uh, got the opportunity to go to the next level, got to talk to some teams and stuff like that, playing some all-star games. But uh things just didn't work out for me. But, you know, still I learned a lot, enjoyed the experience and everything. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Okay, cool. So take us back to when you first got there freshman year. What was the program like when you got there? And what role did you expect to have early on?

SPEAKER_01 2:00

So get into Albany early on. The program, it was in a transition period because there was a lot of uncertainty behind the new head coach that had came in. And so just before I had gotten there, the old coaching staff that recruited me, uh, going into the spring, they had all resigned. So it put, you know, it put us kind of in a whirlwind as far as being recruits, trying to figure out what the next steps were to get down there. And then also, too, like just the energy of the team going through a period of change. Like, you know, some people want to stick with the old ways while other people are trying to, you know, get with the new ways. And so coming in, it was it wasn't the best environment. It wasn't a bad environment, but uh it was definitely, we're definitely kind of like front runners. So it was like whenever things would go good, it would go great. But when things went bad, it was like things kind of just fell apart. And so my role on the team at the time, I was thinking that maybe I would be a backup or a special team kind of guy. But just honestly, like I wasn't physically developed enough. Like, you know, I was out there, I was able to compete, but I still had issues within my game. And then, you know, it was, you know, it was just a different level, a different speed. And so um eventually I had to sit-down talk with with my coach, and they decided to red shirt me. And so I it put me in a a different headspace because I wasn't really expecting a red shirt, but also to like I knew it was something that I kind of knew that I needed to do. And so, you know, I just tried to stay as locked in as I could, but that was my first time, like,

Transitioning to College Football: Expectations vs. Reality

SPEAKER_01 3:39

like essentially not playing in the season. So it was definitely like a a change in in temperature for me from being in high school where you know it was kind of like immediately we were thrown in, thrown in the fire. And so Yeah, I learned a lot from it though. And um at the end of that season, we ended up beating our rival, but because we had lost the, I think we had lost the two games before that, it kept us from being in the playoffs. And so going into that offseason, you know, a lot of it, like the team atmosphere, it was just us, you know, trying to really be focused and really trying to push to get to that next step of making it to the championship.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Okay, that's cool. So you said uh it kind of you said having the conversation with your coach about red shirting kind of, you know, shook you up just a little bit because that's not what you were expecting. What were your expectations going into it? Like, did you think you were gonna start? Did you think you were gonna play a lot or just be in a rotation? Like what were your expectations?

SPEAKER_01 4:37

I was kind of I was really thinking I was gonna be in the rotation, like, cause I remember being in high school and just looking through the roster and stuff and trying to see like, okay, how big are these guys is playing DB. Let's see if I can figure out some background behind them, not knowing that, you know, just how drastically a college roster could change from year to year. And so coming in, like I was thinking, like, okay, you know, I'm not too bad. I I could probably get in here and there. But, you know, I I was faced with reality, like, hey man, you know, we my my coaches were like, hey, you know, our uh our checks are on the line. Like, we got to put out the best, we gotta put the best 11 out there. And one I learned real quick, like, just because you may be getting second second team reps in practice does not mean that you'll get you'll be the backup when the game comes. Because like I said, they're looking for the best 11. If they need to, they will put a safety out there. They will put, you know, they'll put other people out there if they if they feel like they can trust those guys out there. And that was that's another thing too. I had to learn, I had to learn how to be somebody that coach could trust. And so it was like, you know, like if they feel like they trusted somebody else out there more than they trusted me, like it didn't matter. Like, and also too, not being accompanied to, or not being accustomed to what it looked like to really practice like a professional and really take things, you know, serious. Like, you know, there'd be times where, you know, I'd let like in practice, I may be, you know, I may not be super focused, or I may let it let let a certain player or a certain mistake happen. And in my head, I'm thinking it's not that big, but you know, to these coaches, it's like, dang, like, we've let you sit and watch the starter do this, and you're still messing up. Like, what are we doing?

The Importance of Trust and Competition in College Football

SPEAKER_01 6:17

And so I it just it just put things in perspective for me. Like I had to, I had to essentially just just grow up from, you know, the mindset that we had in high school or the mindset that I had in high school, thinking that, you know, things would just, I guess, essentially kind of like fall out of me.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Yeah, that's that's really important, I think what you said is is learning how how to grow up and having to kind of face that reality that, you know, you have to you have to develop trust with these coaches. And in high school, it's not that the coaches don't have their jobs on the line, but at the end of the day, these coaches want to make moves and they want to, you know, maybe take the next step in a couple years, whatever that might be. And if you get in the way of that, then you won't get in the game, like point blank, period. And one thing also that you uh you kind of mentioned a little bit, um, but the talent gap. Like between high school and college, and Albany State is D2. I went to Mario, I was D2 also, but you know, I I was I went into the offseason after we graduated, thinking, like, oh man, you know, I'm gonna train and whatnot. But I think I'm about to start, like I'm about to be one of the best players. And bro, I wasn't that couldn't have been further from the truth. Like, I was just it was such a a shock to me getting there and realizing how good these players were. And like you realize all these players were like you or better coming out of high school. Like all these players are on scholarships, so they clearly had to earn it. And you know, when you're coming in, you're competing with juniors and seniors and stuff. And for you to think you'll come in as a freshman and start, bro. I mean, unless you really like that, like you you're gonna have a lot of work to do. And it's not that it's not possible, but you know, you just have to kind of understand, like you said, trust. Like practices are meant to build trust and help you get those mental reps. Because in a game, it's a whole different thing. Like you can't get a playback and coaches be like, yeah, run it again. Like, no, it's either, you know, you might get it, it might be a touchdown. So you can't coaches can't, you know, just put you in there just because you think you're ready to go. Mm-hmm. That's the truth.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Like, you know, just understanding that everybody that, you know, is down at these, at these schools that you're going to, whether it's, you know, D1, D2, even like D3 NAI schools, like, you know, a lot of it's a lot of guys is there that, you know, they were the guy in high school. So to come in thinking that just because you did this in high school or just because you did that, like, it really doesn't matter because you gotta go against, you gotta line up against a person who's probably been there, been training at a college level for two, three years. Meanwhile, this is your first experience of ever seeing somebody ever being a part of a football game where everybody else is 18 plus. So it's it's a huge, it's a huge gap that, you know, like it's not to say it's impossible to overcome, because you definitely can overcome, can overcome it. And some people in high school, they just physically develop faster than others. But, you know, like that's just the truth behind it. Like, it's it's tough. Like, there's a lot of talent that, you know, it's players that don't even play on Friday or on Saturday nights. You know what I'm saying? That's just I don't want to say they're practice warriors, but like you may, you don't even realize in high school, like, yeah, no, you're really battling for your reps against this guy,

Adapting to Different Positions: The Journey of a Versatile Player

SPEAKER_01 9:21

this dude who's been grinding to get in this position for the last two years. So it's just, you know, it's just a different, a different level of competition, really.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Yeah, most definitely. And and like you said, you kind of realize that, you know, the practices are like the games for you. Like if you, if you want to play, like you have to treat treat practices like they are games, because if not, like, you know, people taking it more serious than you, you know, that's and but but the also I feel like that's a part of maturing and understanding or just getting used to the college environment because coming in as a as a freshman, if you were at a high school that didn't prepare you in that way for what college is gonna be like and understanding that you're gonna have to compete for everything that you have, especially because as a senior high school, you basically going out on top for the most part. And like you, like you said, you know, you're used to playing all the time, playing every snap in the game, sometimes playing both sides of the ball, playing on special teams, and then you go from that to basically just practicing and watching other people play the whole time. So, and then honestly, one thing that shocked me too was like, especially when the season started, barely getting in practice. Like I'll be running like the not even the threes. So I'm getting like maybe two or three reps in the in team period and seven on seven and stuff like that. So it's just like it's just you have to really pay attention. And and it's kind of I think in high school, it kind of emphasizes the importance of you know, knowing what you're getting yourself into, like asking coaches, asking players that's been there, like what to expect and how you can better prepare for that. Because if not, you're really gonna be kind of get your block rock.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Yeah, it's it's definitely a shell-shocking experience. Like, just the difference in tempo with you know, high school practice, college practice, especially if you're somebody who was, you know, getting a lot of prominent high school reps, like, you know, in college, they got the ones, they got the twos, and they got the threes. And most of the reps are going to the ones. You know, if you're a two, you'll get you'll get some reps here and there. But if you're a three or down below, like it'll be some practices where you're just standing there. And you're still gonna be expected to you know understand and know what's going on so that when they call your number up and you know somebody gets hurt and they throw you in the game, you better, you better keep the keep up the same production.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yeah, that's a fact. And especially a corner too, like if they put a backup in, they finna go at you instantly. So instantly. Yeah, that's funny.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

It's actually funny, like, you know, just seeing the different tendencies at a college level that like in high school we never really noticed. Like something like, you know, if they put a backup corner in, they're about to run a go ball to his side, or about to go and see what he's talking about. And you it's like one thing, you know, in high school, like, you know, they put in a backup corner, but you may not have a quarterback or you may not have the offense to where you can just, you know, go and check him out. But in college, like, you know, a lot of the quarterbacks you end up facing are a lot of the, well, you know, like I said, it's a different, it's

Overcoming Challenges: Injuries and Personal Growth

SPEAKER_01 12:13

a different level. So, you know, everybody sees that. Everybody sees that's a new person in. Okay, let's let's go see. Or like even on the film, like say if you put out film from the week before where, you know, you're not really doing that well, or you know, you get cooked a couple of times, every team in the conference just took note of that. And they're like, okay, yeah, no, we're going at him. Every time he's in the game, we're going at him. He's the fish.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Yeah, it's it's uh it's it's a whole nother ballgame, man. It's like 4D chess. Like you really got to be be on top of your game. So I wanted to ask, you mentioned you you played all three defensive positions. How did that come about? Like, when did you first switch from corner to and what was the next position you played after that?

SPEAKER_01 12:52

So yeah, coming in, I was recruited at corner, and my freshman year, it was two other boys that had been brought in, and they were in the classroom, they were juniors. But I didn't know this at the time. I think on the field they were like sophomores, I want to say. And so they were there for 2017, 2018, 2019. So that was three years where, you know, the first two, first year I was a red shirt. Second year, I backed them up, barely got any reps. Like, I think I got my first like legitimate reps in the championship game because they had gotten hurt. And even though I didn't do that bad, like, you know, going coming back into that third year, you know, they were still the guys, they were still the starters. So at that point, you know, I was making a name for myself on special teams, and I got to a point to where like the coaches could trust me more, but it was like I was I was just trying to fit in a place where it wasn't really any room for me. And so I it was after our um after our Mississippi college game, I think it was. I went in, I went and talked with my coach. Like, I I told him, I was like, hey, like coach, I think I could, I I see what our nickel is doing, I see what our star is doing. I'm not saying that like they're bad or anything like that, but I think that you know I could put up I could put up some similar production. Like I think I could learn it. And so my coach was actually pretty excited about it because at the time we were really low in depth with our star could or with our uh nickel because our original starter had messed up his shoulder and he was out for the season, so we were off rip having to put in a backup safety. And so, you know, for our coach, he was just happy to get some more depth. And I I star I started to understand the importance of just being a person or being that person on the team that uh that the team needs. Like, you know, I saw that we had, you know, a hole in the nickel spot, I was like, hey coach, I could I could step up and fill that gap. And so for that 2019 season, I really just you know still took special teams super serious, but I started to get more prominent reps at the at the nickel spot, started to learn technique and you know, just trying to build on that. You know, it was

The Role of Team Dynamics and Flexibility in Success

SPEAKER_01 15:06

definitely a a switch up though, because you know, ever since high school, I was playing, you know, on the outside, I was playing corner. I pretty much have just had my own island. And then going to play nickel, it's like, you know, some some days or sometimes, some plays, I'll be man to man with that slot receiver, but then sometimes I'm like a linebacker. Then it's sometimes I'm coming down like I'm a DN, going off the edge. Like it was really like I was, it was really like I was, you know, just really in the mix. And so I remember my first couple practices going against the linemen and inside drill, and my coach was telling me to spill, and I didn't know how to spill blocks. And so I was definitely getting my block took off a couple of times, but you know, I learned through that, eventually got eventually got better with it. And it's just funny because blitzing ended up becoming like one of my favorite things to do out there, wherein, you know, at first it was something that like I really didn't want to do. Like, and it's not like I couldn't blitz off the edge, like I'm just you know, running around people, but it's when coach would call me, like, yeah, no, you gotta you gotta fit into this B gap. Or like you gotta go tight off this C gap and go under the block. It's like, hold on, coach, like, you know, I'm only 170. But, you know, like I said, I got I got better with the technique and just grew in that area. And so um, by the end of that season, uh, it's just funny because like I said, at this same time, I was taking special teams super serious. And so um, we went to our rivalry game against Fort Valley, and I blocked three punts, scored two touchdowns, and one MVP. And that kind of like at that point, it kind of put I I feel like it kind of put pressure on the coaches to where it was like, dang, like, this is an MVP, why is he not playing? And so we get into the championship game, and I didn't start, but I was I was starting on some sub packages at this time. But um some stuff happened, and eventually they ended up moving me into the base pack or into our base package, and like even though we didn't win the game, I had a pretty solid game myself. And going into that offseason, my coach let me know. He was like, Yeah, uh yeah, Hawk, I need you to I need you to start at at nickel for me uh for this upcoming season. Like you're you're gonna be my guy who I'm rocking with. I'm like, all right, bet coach. And so, you know, at this point, I just made the transition from corner to nickel. And I think also too, one thing that uh that helped me out with playing nickel, it was really two things. So number one,

The Impact of Coaching and Mentorship on Development

SPEAKER_01 17:30

playing corner, spending two years at corner, because that allowed me to, you know, work on my man-to-man technique, work on the different things that in high school I ri I really wasn't all that well in. And so being able to bring that toolbox with me to, you know, play in the nickel, playing the slot. So it wasn't never like I felt like I was in a mismatch. Like I felt I could guard anybody out there. But then also, too, in youth ball, I used to play D End. I played DN for four years while um while I was playing uh Sandy Creek. And like had I not played DN for all those years, I felt like that's kind of what gave me that edge whenever I was kind of like playing linebacker or playing like I was blitzing off the edge. Like a lot of this stuff is starting to feel like second nature for me because I had done it before. But it was like I had to like retap back into like some old football stuff that I kind of like, you know, going from playing D-N and youth ball to playing corner in high school, I never thought that I would be back down on the D-line. But then I get to college and they're like, Yeah, we need you to blitz off the edge for us or blitz in this speed up for us. Like, that's just what it is. And it's like, all right, well, I'm glad that I got the background that I got. And so that really just helped me out. But going into 2020, that's when we had our COVID, our COVID, you know, season, you know, they canceled the whole season. So pretty much that whole year, it just went to, you know, straight preparation. Like, you know, while we were at home, you know, I know you remember we were in the dungeon, you know, every day, pretty much. Like it was it was some time. And so once I got back down to Albany, you know, I just, you know, continued on with the with the grind, with the energy. And then also, too, I gotta, I gotta shout out my boy Jordan. Cause so Jordan, he was somebody who played nickel too. But my coaches, uh, they weren't really like playing like that, but he was somebody who was, you know, constantly working, constantly, you know, like trying to get better at his craft. And like me and him were always hanging out and, you know, just like going through the different struggles and stuff that we went through. Like, it was it eventually turned into us like trying to get each other better. So like a lot of that time, like he's playing nickel, I'm playing nickel. We're learning the playbooks with each other, we're testing each other's IQ, you know, we just we teaching each other different techniques and stuff like that. Like it was, you know, like we're it was really just iron sharpening iron. And so, you know, we get into the season, and we get into and at this point, it's 2021. We get into the season, and uh I think it was the second or third game of the season. At this point, I think we were two and oh, three and oh, or something like that. But we had played Valdasta and I was having a pretty good game, but then I ended up breaking my hand, and I went down. We ended up having our backups come in, and then um we lost that game. But I think that next that next game we played, uh Clark Atlanta.

Reflections on the College Football Experience

SPEAKER_01 20:17

And uh it was it was just cool because I got to see my dog Jordan. He he had gone crazy during that game. So it was like for me to go down and then to see him step up, you know what I'm saying? Like that was kind of like a testament to just like how hard we had been working. But um with my hand, though, I was out for uh I think it was like two or three weeks. And when I came back, I was wearing it. I was wearing a club. And so that was my first time ever playing with the club. And I didn't really know how I was gonna play because I was so used to having both my hands. And if you don't know, a club is basically just a cast. And you know, it's it's gonna pretty much protect your whole hand. I think the only the only finger I had out was my thumb. Other than that, everything was, you know, covered up in a cast. They put a little pad on it. Like it was just like a big block. And so at first it was kind of like an adjustment trying to figure out how to play with it. Because like I said, I felt like I was it felt like I was kind of at a disadvantage. But it in turn, it really just made me, it really made me more aggressive because it was like, yo, I can't, I can't, you know, catch the ball. I can't really, you know, do too much of what I want to do. But I feel like I got this extra weight on my hand. And so and so it really turned into me, like, say if I was gonna make a tackle, like, bro, I'm throwing my hand in there, it's like give me some extra weight, some extra torque. Like, I'm I'm out there like doing all types of stuff. It'd be times where people would try to block me at the on the edge, and like I can't rip off the block, but I could keep hitting you with this club in your head till you don't want to keep watching me. So like it it'll just be funny. Like the refs, they would kind of let me do my thing, cause um, you know, whenever a player would complain about it, the ref would be like, Well, dude, he only got one hand. Like, what'd you expect him to do? And I'm like, Yeah, like I'm shoot, I can't, I can it's not like I can really do what I want to do, but. It was cool though. Like I said, it made me more aggressive. It made me more, you know, like it was like I embraced contact even more, you know? And I also, too, the fact of the matter that we had a whole year off from football, that was something that like also I think played into the role of just me embracing contact more. Because it was like, dang, like, I didn't think that I didn't think after my red shirt year that I would go through another year missing football. But, you know, I went through another year missing football. And like, you know, it just made me more appreciative of, you know, getting that opportunity to go out there and play. And so we ended up winning the championship that year and going to the playoffs. And uh we

Conclusion and Future Aspirations

SPEAKER_01 22:43

lost in the first round of the playoffs, but I ended up getting hurt that game again. Um, I ended up getting a pinched nerve in my shoulder. And so that whole offseason, they had me on non-contact. Like when we got the spring ball, I was wearing a red jersey. Like I honestly hated it. And so going into my last season, um, we were playing, dang, it's this is really similar to like 2019, but we were playing Mississippi College again. And at this, like I said, at this point, I was, you know, I was pretty much locked in at nickel. Like they really didn't want to move me. But our starting free safety, he ended up, uh he ended up getting hurt and he was out for the season. Yeah, I think he messed up his pet. And when they met when he messed up his pet, you know, our coaches, they were trying to just figure out how to go about things. And like I said, they want to put the best 11 out there, the most trusted 11 out there. So they ended up moving me back to free safety. And then they had another one of my boys, Trey. He ended up moving, he ended up starting at uh at nickel. And so at that point, it was like I was kind of, I don't want to say I was learning on the fly, but I kind of was learning on the fly. But because I had been in the system as long as I had been in the system, it was really like I like I had seen people, you know, play free safety. Like I had seen plenty of reps for free safety. Like I knew what everything was supposed to look like. You know what I mean? Like I knew how my puzzle piece fit. And then also, too, I uh my roommate from my first my first four years in college, Q, uh, Coimba Jones. He was he was an all-American free safety. Like, I'm talking about like as soon as he came in, you know, like he's somebody, a little dude from Miami, super competitive, like, you know, like heartbeat of the team. And so like I remember freshman year, even though he was like smaller than everybody, like he had he had the biggest heart. He was tackling whoever, he didn't care, he was covering whoever. And like being somebody who was on the sideline watching that, it made you excited and want to go out there and play. You know what I mean? And so, like, like getting like seeing that and knowing like, okay, I've seen, I've seen free safety, I've seen what a good free safety looks like. It's like, yo, like, okay, I'm just gonna make sure that, you know, if I'm doing something, it's gonna, it's, it's gonna look like this on film because I know this is the standard. And so playing on playing, you know, up top, it essentially was kind of like playing in the nickel, but it was like I had more space. Like that's that was kind of like my mindset about it. And, you know, I think honestly though, even I think free safety was probably the easiest position to play just because it was a lot of zones, it was a lot of kind of just watching things play out in front of you and then fitting in the right spot. But I think for me, I found home playing nickel because it was kind of like a combination of of all three levels of the defense. Like I'm playing, like I'm playing in coverage, I'm playing in the box, I'm blitzing off the edge. Like it it wasn't no, it wasn't no other position like that on the defense. And it felt like because I was a I felt like I was a versatile player, and so it just allowed me to showcase those skills the best.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Wow, that was a lot. That was great. So I want to go back to uh well first I want to point out that I admire your ability to to go to your coach and and basically advocate for yourself to change that position because you know who knows how many players is out here who are stuck behind, uh stuck behind players, even though they're they may be great, but they're still stuck. They can't move. And like for you to go and and try to work in somewhere else and notice the the problems y'all are having with depth in the nickel position. I mean, it's just like I feel like something that I talk about a lot is you know being flexible, like being, like you said, being someone that the team needs. Because at the end of the day, if y'all have uh an abundance of corners, then either I mean you only have a few options. You either gonna stay, you're gonna transfer, or you're gonna quit. Or in your case, the other option is find somewhere else to fit in. And that's when you see some players may switch to offense or you know, change positions on the defense. So kind of speak a little bit more to that about the need to be more flexible into like if you really want to play, like you have to figure something.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Man, just like I've seen plenty of plenty of our athletes uh just down at Albany. It's like you'll come in as one position, but you know, you'll realize there's a need at another position, or you may have the talent or the skill to play at that other position. And like, you know, in high school, like one thing I didn't understand in high school is that just because you played this position in high school, this is just what your high school team needed. That that may not be like what your actual position is. And so, like, you know, I just had to embody the mindset of like, bro, I'm a I'm a football player. You know what I mean? Like, coach, if you need me to play receiver and I gotta, you know, I gotta run a slant, I gotta run a go ball or something like that, I could do that. But like even like I I remember in high school, like there was we we were switching up our offense a whole bunch our senior year, and there were even reps where I would play at fullback. And it's like, bro, I'm not a fullback, but you know, I'm a football player. I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to fill in where I can fit in, you know. It's like I'm somebody who, you know, if if I'm wanna be somebody who can be trusted, if I want to be somebody that wants to be on the field, like, you know, you can't just stick to, oh, I'm this, I want to do this. Like, you know, it's it's a real selfish mindset to have. And it's not to say that you shouldn't trust in yourself and believe in yourself, but also too, like, you know, if you got the opportunity to get on the field and showcase your talents in another position and you know, just understand, like, like in the league, like, you know, it's people who get who get paid millions of dollars just to run, just to rush the edge on third down, fourth down. You know what I mean? Like, you may be, you may be, you may think that you're this, but if you if you have a certain skill set or a certain you know set of talents to where you know you can exploit certain things, like, you know, it it's it's good to lean on those talents.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Yeah, that's good. Um, me and Janae were just talking about that, about how I mean, talent is talent at the end of the day. Coaches are gonna find you. And, you know, although, you know, we can talk about different ways to be exposed and different opportunities that, you know, benefit some players over others, but I mean, like you said, I think that was great. Like, if you if you're gonna be a football player, then play football. Like, do what the team needs. But if you're just kind of in it for yourself, then yeah, you're gonna you're gonna pigeon your pigeon pigeonhole yourself pretty quickly. Um, I did want to ask though, um, because you played all three corner, free safety, and nickel,

The Versatility of Defensive Players

SPEAKER_00 29:04

do you think that would help more defensive players? Like, do you think a corner could benefit from from switching in? And do you think free safeties could benefit? And I know sometimes safeties they may interchange a little bit more just because that's the that's the safety position, even though it is different. But do you think there's benefit in in all the defensive, um, defensive backs playing nickel?

SPEAKER_01 29:25

I personally think it is, because for one, if you notice, but there's a trend going on in the NFL to where like essentially like they try to have like five defensive backs in the game where they're kind of like playing positionless football. Like sometimes, you know, they'll be pressed up on the outside one-on-one, but then sometimes they're in the linebacker fit, sometimes they're playing up high. Like it is like when you have that amount of flexibility, it gives the coach so much more versatility with just the different looks and stuff that he wants to set up. But then also, too, like, you know, you just never know when you'll be in in certain positions, you know. Like it may be a certain call that coach calls that, you know, next thing you know, you're you're lined up man to man on, you know, the other team's best guy. And that's just what it is. You know, you just gotta go and play ball. And, you know, if you're not versatile, then you know, it you you're gonna feel like dang, like I don't know how I'm supposed to do this. But if you have that versatility or if you, you know, try to build up on those skills, then essentially you'll feel like whatever coach asks asks of you to do, then it's like, all right, bet I can do that. You know what I mean? Like, it's just about um, like I said, being what a team needs. And not every team's needs are gonna be the same. Not every, not every team runs the same scheme or has the same techniques. You know, some some coaches prefer for you know their guys to play with outside leverage, some coaches prefer for their guys to play with inside leverage. But as a player, like you should just be able to listen and be coachable and do what you're coached to do. And, you know, at the end of the day is football. You just gotta make a play.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

Yeah, that's facts. I think I think the point about just becoming more versatile by by doing that, by switching to, well, not necessarily switching, but you know, seeing if you can find reps at nickel. And I think that that points to another conversation to have with the coach about, hey, you know, I I know I play this position, but I want to I want to be that guy in the team that can do what like do anything on the field, basically. And so I think that's another conversation that players need to have, even in high school, about finding what you know where their talents can be best used. Cause like you said, yeah, maybe the team does need a corner, but at the like for us, for example, um, I mean, we needed, we needed well, we didn't really need receivers, but I mean, you know, we mean I Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

I was gonna say, like, um So one of our uh one of our best corners down in Albany, uh Jari Turner. So when he when Jari had first came in, he was uh he was a receiver. And it wasn't like he was a bad receiver, he like he was a he was a long, lanky receiver, you know what I mean? Like it was it wasn't e it wasn't an easy task to guard him. But when he was in high school, that like receiver was his main position, but he got some quality reps at corner. And I I don't remember what it was, but one day we ended up just moving him to corner, and like it was like we realized immediately, like, whoa, this dude is a jewel, like a hidden jewel. And he stayed with us for two or three years, and uh eventually he hit the transfer portal and transferred up to Central Michigan. And so that like, you know, it was like this dude just went from being a division two, you know, he got recruited as a division two receiver, but he finished his uh yeah, he finished his college career as a D1 FBS division division bat or a defensive bat. You know what I mean? Like and that just came from, you know, him exposing that versatility.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Yeah, that that's uh that's crazy. I had we had a similar story when I was at Charleston about uh a corner, he was probably like 6'2, same, same kind of build, like super lanky, and he switched to receiver, and this dude was one-handing balls, like he it was just crazy how um because that corner, if you're a fast guy, you can you can showcase that, but not really, not the same as if you played receiver. And so when he played receiver, it was like this dude just reached another gear. It was crazy. And so he ended up basically having having like a breakout season after switching, even though he was like a junior when I came in. So when he was a senior, like bro, he was just kind of going crazy at the receiver. But it's just it's just crazy how that works. But being open-minded about your career, like at the end of the day, if you want to make it to the next level, like you have to be, unless you're one of those guys, you have to figure out a way to get on the field. Because if not, then you're cooked either way. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

You gotta figure out a way to get on the field. That's you know, that's mandatory. You gotta you gotta be flexible. You don't want to just be stuck in your ways thinking that it's my way or the highway, because you'll very fat, you'll very soon find out that they will send you to the highway.

Navigating the Redshirt Experience

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Yeah, that's a fact. So I want to go back just a little bit. It during for your red shirt season, and then you said you sat behind the other two corners until uh the 2019 season, right? Yeah. Okay, so did you at during that point, I know you said that you were kind of biding your time and still learning and things like that, but did you ever feel like things weren't moving fast enough and that you did you ever consider transferring or what was that like?

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Oh, definitely. Yeah, so because of how they handled redshirting me freshman year, like it I think it would have been one thing if they would have told me off rip, like, hey, you're a red shirt. But the way things happened for me was on they had me on the travel squad list, they had me on the depth chart, I was traveling to the games, but I just wasn't playing. Like I stood on the sideline the whole time. And so I think I did that for like the first four or five games of the season. And like that fifth game, like it was it was like bad, it was bad. We were getting blown out, and like coach still wasn't throwing me in. So at that point, it's kind of it was kind of like a frustration thing. It's like, dang, like, you know, I'm not having bad practices or anything like that. And it seems like there's an opportunity where it's like if you're gonna find out about somebody, you might as well throw them in now. But, you know, I still wasn't getting the reps. And so, like, me sitting down with my coach and talking to him about it, it was more so out of frustration, like, dang, like, you know, if I'm not gonna play, you might as well redshirt me. And they were like, all right, bet, cool. And so they went and redshirted me. And so when we came back that next season, like, and then also too, I didn't I didn't fully under I didn't know that they were gonna be there for three years. I thought that that next season was gonna be their last season. So I thought 2018 was their last season. And so in my head, rather than playing to be a starter and trying to like prepare myself to, you know, try not even prepare myself, but like instead of trying to like work right now to get the spot right now or show the coach, show that the coach can trust me right now, it was like I was trying to prepare for something that really wasn't what it was, what I thought it'd be later on. You know what I mean? Like I wasn't taking I wasn't taking the time to be serious what with the time that I had there. And like it was how do I say this? You know, I I just I feel like I didn't respond. I feel like I didn't respond that well, honestly. Like kind of going into that 2018 season, you know, I was happy that we were winning, but internally, like I was I was mad within myself. I was mad that, you know, I wasn't able to play, I wasn't able to, you know, showcase my talents and stuff like that. And, you know, but still, I was still having like a lot of the same mess-ups that I was having from, you know, my original freshman year. Like, as far as development was going, like I was getting more developed, but you know, I wasn't I wasn't developing at the rate that I thought I was. And so when we came back in 2019, like, you know, like my coaches, they I remember uh so that that whole spring, I sat out because I had gotten surgery on my shoulder. And they ended up bringing in like one or two other corners like that transferred in. And, you know, that 2019 season, like I was still like I remember starting off fall camp, and I remember the fall camp, my freshman, or yeah, my the fall camp, my red shirt freshman year, I was like a two on that depth chart. But then the fall camp going into 2019, I was like a five or a six. Dang. Like coaches, like the coaches were trying to get rid of me. And so when it was like for me, once I realized that, and I realized like, bruh, like it's you you don't just get given things. Like we're they're literally looking for the next, next best man. Like they'll go, you know, what to whatever lengths to try to find that bet that next best man. They're not gonna just settle with you just because you're here. And it was like, all right, like I gotta, I gotta figure this out. I gotta take it, I gotta take it to the next level. And so it just it just made me be more be more mature, take every rep more serious, like even the reps that I had on the sideline. And then also too, like just understand. It was like I I I started spending more time with my coaches, started really breaking down film, trying to figure out why the defense worked the way that it did. Just like I I felt like I had gotten to a point to where like it was like I was trying to understand the defense schematically because I knew my position, I knew what I was supposed to do, I knew what all the calls were, and it was like at this point now I gotta understand like why are we calling the calls that we call and why does it like why does this specific technique that y'all want me to play make this call work? And you know, just leaning on it was like once I started to learn more of that, my I started to play better, but then also at the same time, I'm also making this transition period into playing nickel. And so like it really just it really just you know worked out in my favor because I think had I played nickel sooner than when I had that mindset, I probably still wouldn't have done that well at nickel. Like it because it was, you know, it's all you're learning a whole nother position at a at a college level. Like I, you know, I would have had to learn all the blitz, like I was learning all the blitzes. I I'm saying I would have had to learn all the blitzes, I would have had to learn all the different plays and stuff, like all the different techniques. And you know, it it there's a level of maturity that you gotta have to really break down the college playbook and really understand why it is Joe puzzle piece fits the way that it does. And so, you know, I'm I think I just had to it just had to be more focused. Like it was just it was tough. But yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Yeah, that's cool. I would say that that was probably one of the things that I lacked the most is kind of the desire to

Understanding the Game: The Importance of Film Study

SPEAKER_00 39:32

I lacked it, but I was also immature, but I just didn't I never took it upon myself to understand my part in the defense. And because I played corner, it wasn't really that much you kind of have to figure out, like it's pretty simple, but I never took the time to understand why the defense was being run the way it was, like why certain players work better than others, why certain calls were being made. Like I never really until I really like my last year playing football, which I didn't even really care about playing at that point. That's when I kind of started to understand some things and it started to come together. But I think it's it should be, and people talk about film study all the time, so I'm not gonna act like it's it's this unheard of thing. But I think habits like that really, you have to start them in high school because especially in college, there's a lot of moving pieces. If you're going through kind of experiences like you were going through, being behind other people, like the the main thing that you're kind of usually worried about is just playing, like getting on the playing field. But the the kind of different approach you took was like, let me figure out the the holistic perspective. Like, let me not just focus on myself, let me step outside of myself a little bit and figure out like why you know why all these things are kind of coming together like that. And I think that mature and that just having that intellectual part of the game, I feel like may help players sometimes unlock something that they haven't before. And honestly, I feel like a reality is some players just aren't gonna play, and that's just that. But what you may do is unlock, unlock a grad assistant role because you understand so much, or maybe you unlock a passion becoming a coach or something like that. So I feel like just the mental, that part of the game, the mental aspect is is kind of, I just say I undervalued it. And I feel like every time I hear uh people like you, people like Trent talk about that part of that part, that side of it, like it just it kind of makes you realize the gap between high school and college, but then college to the pros. Because then in the pros, it's mainly all about film, being in the right place at the right time, understanding the tendencies, who's doing what, why they're doing it, when they're doing it. So yeah, I just find that super interesting.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Yeah, like I mean, it's funny, but so my freshman year in college, my I'll never forget this. So I had an English teacher who shout out to Dr. Matt, but um, he used to give us his writing assignments where the prompt, it felt like it was pretty simple. It didn't feel like it was something too complex. Like he showed us different um different essays and stuff in class with how he liked for his his um his papers to look. And basically, if you turned in a paper to him, and it may have been the best written paper that you've ever done, you could turn in this paper to him, but not have visited him one time that whole week outside of class, and the highest grade you're gonna get on that is a C. But if you go see him at least one time, and then you just went from getting a ga you just went from getting a C to getting a guaranteed B. And then it's like the more and more that you see him and spend time with him, the more love like the more he would just show you different tweaks and stuff that he'd want you to do to your paper. And sure enough, you're gonna get an A because you're getting exactly what it is that he wanted. And so I started to just adopt that mindset in with football. Like my f my first my first year, like I really wasn't going to the coach too much. Like my red shirt year. I really I really wasn't going to the coach too much. Then my red shirt freshman year, I'd visit coach here and there, but I would be more so like like I spent more time by myself trying to break down film and try to understand things myself without really having that guide for me. But then 2019, that's that's when it kind of started to click to me like, you know, I can't figure it out, like I don't really even understand what it is that I'm looking at. Like I need to really just like sit down and break this down with coach. Like, you know, help me, help me understand this. And so, you know, we he broke it down, you know, as much as he could for me, like we just going over different plays, different tendencies, and then also too, just because of the role that I was kind of like stepping out the role I was stepping into, it went from me not really playing like that to me playing special teams. So the more I learned, it was like I started having to learn, you know, just different techniques with my drop or like, you know, I'm I'm studying film because I I'm studying film the whole week on just kickoff and kick off return or punt and punt return. And it's like, yo, I gotta figure, I gotta make sure that L5, like, you know, he's showing me that he's doing this on film every day. So I'm gonna be prepared for this every time I see him because I know, you know, it's gonna, I'm gonna have that situation in the game where L5 is going, you know, he's gonna dip and rip or he's gonna do this and that, and I'm gonna be prepared for it. And you know, I went from having that special teams role to being in on sub packages. And so being in on sub packages, I think that's where it really started to click with me. Cause so our sub packages, we only ran those for the most part on like third down, fourth down. And so my coaches started to show me the different tendencies of what teams do on third down. And then we just started watching film on just I remember we were watching film on some team. I think it may have been like Lane College or somebody, but we were just, we only watched their third downs from like the last two or three games. And I want to say like 60 or 70% of those third downs, they ran, they ran a mesh concept. And it was like, yo, this is literally what we're gonna be practicing all week. And then we get to the game. Sure enough, that first third down, they ran a mesh concept, and the receiver that they were throwing the ball to, he ended up getting smacked over the middle. Next time they ran a mesh. Next time they ran a mesh concept, they tried to add in the tight end to the mesh, and we end up blitzing sticks, and boom, the quarterback's getting hit. Like, like my coaches really had it broken down to where like they even understood like the protections and understanding, like, okay, whenever this team gets this front, this is how they shift their protection. So if we show them this front, but then we add an extra rusher to that other side and they slide their linemen this way, that extra rusher is gonna get in free every time. Like they were breaking. They were breaking down now. Like it's to the point of where like even to this day, I'd still probably like, if I could, you know, and I got it, I got their number, but it just get I I I just really value that that opportunity to like just sit down with the coaches and really just break down, you know, football. Like it gives you a different perspective of it that as a player I didn't understand because you know, us as players, we're really like just pawns in the game of chess. But it's there's a whole side of it that, you know, as far as you know the coaching goes, like that's the real chess match that's going on. It's like this offensive coordinator scheme versus this defensive coordinator scheme. You know, like and not every scheme is ran the same, but there's a lot of the same different, you know, instances and stuff like that, you know, just different things that each team does. But that's just I just learned a lot.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Yeah, that's that's amazing. And I think one thing that I one of my regrets is not taking advantage of opportunities like that. And not that so quick question, did your coaches ever ask you to come in there and watch film, or was that something you strictly took upon yourself to go do? Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

So so they would um so there'd be times where uh I mean we'd have film study as like a position group, but it wouldn't ever be like like that would that would be like specifically during you know practice time. Like they've got scheduled time for that. But our coaches would actually like, I don't want to say they'd ask us, but they let us know. They'd be like, hey, you know, if you got time, pull up on us. You know, come see us. And you know, you know, like the coaches definitely knew who was coming in there to come talk to them, who wasn't. And you know, sometimes it it don't even it don't even be, it don't even have to be like you going in there and you spending like an hour, two hours in there. It could literally be like, okay, you got 30 minutes before class, you pull up on coach for 15, 10, 15 minutes, and then you just go to class.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Right, okay. Yeah, I that's that's one of my regrets is not not taking advantage of those opportunities. Because I didn't really know what I was looking at with film, I just didn't, I just never really watched it at all. Like I was and and my situation was a lot different from yours because I got there, like you said, was kind of running with the fours and fives with the other freshmen and and kind of other players that wasn't really advancing, and we had a lot of injuries. And also, I was doing better in practice too. So I was practicing better. I was showing I could handle it. And um, I went through an adjustment period after coming through camp. I was kind of getting, I was getting cooked in one-on-ones, bro. I just couldn't adjust to the speed. But then as the as the kind of off-season went on, I, you know, going through camp, I was able to kind of keep up with him a little bit more and I adjusted to the tempo. And so uh going into the season, I think I was running with like, I think I may have been the first person off the fours or maybe the bottom of the threes. So we had, bro, it was so many people that got hurt. So by like the fifth game, I was starting, uh, fifth or sixth, something like that. And so uh I ended up starting uh pretty much every other game after that. And even though I didn't play the whole game, because we had some, we had a I think a senior, he started coming back, but I just kind of I watched film when we had practice and stuff, but bro, I promise you, I'd never cut that film on ever at all, unless we was having practice. And I think that contributed the probably not being in some of the best positions at times. Because I remember there was one game specifically where they had a pretty big receiver, and you know what they like to do with big receivers on the goal line fade every time. And so um, you know, I was guarding them in one drive, uh, they tried me twice in a row. And I, well, I didn't deflect it, but I guarded him. Basically, he couldn't get the ball, uh, you know, kick the field goal. But then they kept, every time they got to the goal line, they just kept trying me, kept trying me because I'm a freshman. Yeah, and so, but my technique just wasn't, it just wasn't there. Like, even though I knew kind of what to expect, either like a fade or a slant, I remember one time he was giving me, giving me a release and he went went inside and I held him PI and uh next play he could have caught a fade on me. But had I been looking at the film, I'm sure like I would have seen him giving away some kind of indicators of what he was about to do. But just even beyond that, just all the opportunities that I had to step into my coach's office, even if it wasn't to say to watch film, to just say what's up, like how you doing, coach? What are you seeing out of me? What can I do better? Things like that. I never did that. I I didn't, and not that I didn't care. I just I just didn't know. And and I'm not gonna act like somebody needs to teach you everything because you do need to figure some stuff out for yourself as a young man. But I do wish that I would have had like I don't even know, man. I I don't know what would have helped me. And maybe it was I don't know. I don't know. It's like building the relationship. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I never did that.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

Yeah, so that was that was something that that our coaches were big on was just building those relationships. And you know, it wasn't until that I started to build it, that I started to build that relationship more more with my defensive staff that I realized that all of our best players had a really good relationship with them. Like all of our best players were going to see Coach every day. They're spending time with Coach every day, watching some watching some film for about an hour or so before class. Like, you know, they're that's that's just what it was. And I, you know, me being being the outsider that I was, I didn't even understand that. I'm sitting here thinking, like, dang, like, why am I not playing? Why am I not, you know, on each play? Like, I'm watching these dudes, like they, it seems like they just know the ball is gonna be there. Like, how do you know the ball is gonna be there? Whole time they're just watching film. Like, they and it's not like they're watching film aimlessly, like they they're watching it with the coach, like breaking down tendencies, stuff like that. Like, one thing they like I I still like I tell my guys this to this day, because like right now I'm coaching over at Stockbridge. I tell them, like, hey, just know if you pressed up on the goal line or if we're in the red zone and you pressed up, they're gonna throw a fade ball. But if you play off, they're gonna run a slant. So I try to call I try to code and tell my guys, like, hey, just play off, play catch technique, and when they run a slant, you know, break on the slant. And you know, just don't don't make any you just gotta have have good eyes. Have good eyes. That's the the biggest thing. But but you know, just breaking, just going through going through the tendencies, like that's I think probably the one of the best things I learned from just going to see a coach. But also too, like the relationship aspect, because you never know when you'll see somebody again. You know what I mean? Like now I'm I'm four years removed from the game. You know, I just started coaching this year and this past summer, uh, while

Building Relationships with Coaches

SPEAKER_01 51:47

at some some of our uh some of our seven on seven camps, I got reconnected with my coaches, with my same exact DB coaches that I had in Albany. They, you know, moved up the totem pole, they're at Liberty now, and they ended up offering a couple of the boys that I was coaching now. And so now we're you know back talking, they're letting me know, like, hey, just keep me updated on X, Y, and Z. And so, you know, it's just you just never know. You just never know how path crossing across again.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I was just talking to somebody saying that relationships are the currency of success of success. So like if you want to be successful in this world, no matter what field, you need to build relationships. And one thing that one thing that I was talking to Trent about in a previous episode was just how in the recruiting process, that's kind of the main thing, is just building these relationships with these coaches. And although my recruiting was, it was, you know, that's a whole nother story in itself. But a little bit of my issue was uh my relationship with Coach Davis, our head coach. And I think that kind of affected the relationships that I had with coaches that were recruiting me, because I didn't have that relationship with my head coach, then that was not relayed to them about you know, whatever they were looking for. They obviously didn't feel comfortable either with him or with me or the combination, uh, you know, take that next step. So the point of me saying that was just the relationships, like you say. If you want to, and and kind of like what you were saying about your teammates, the best players were the ones who were going to see the coaches. It's like, bro, kind of like you mentioned earlier, the coaches know what to look for, they know what they're looking at. As a player, you may be smart and you may have the desire to watch it by yourself, but until you get that bird's eye view, it's not gonna all gonna click together for you. So, you know, it's it's basically like there. I mean, you were like saying, How do they know when the ball is gonna be there? It's like the coach is telling them, bro, the ball is gonna be right here.

SPEAKER_01 53:28

Man, man, I'll never so this is my red shirt freshman year at this point. Or no, this is my red shirt year. So at this point, I've already started red shirting. And for our home games, this is actually something that helped me learn the plays too. So for our home games, uh, my coach, my my DC coach peoples, I guess him and Coach Revez, they liked my handwriting or something like that. They had asked me if I could chart plays for like on the sideline. And I was like, you know what, coach, I'm I'm just here anyway. I might as well chart plays, help y'all out. And so we were playing Morehouse for uh for our homecoming. And uh they came out and um they were in like a shotgun set. It was two receivers to the bunt and a bunch to the field, right? And so our corner to that side, I think he was in a it was like a banjo call or something like that. Like it was him and the safety. The safety is gonna take the first person to go vertical, and in he's gonna take the first person that goes out. And so snap of the ball goes, right? The two receivers run forward. The inside receiver ran like a dig or a post or something like that. But then the outside receiver, he it was like at first he was finna run a corner, but then he cut it vertical. But him and the quarterback weren't on the same page. The quarterback thought he was gonna run a corner, and so our corner that was in there, he did a he did a speed turn. Like, as soon as the tight end did that first move, he hit a speed turn. And like to this day, we were still like we were still arguing with Coach as to whether or not he got cooked or not, but like bruh, the the quarterback threw the ball to the corner. Like, I'm talking about like it looked like like him and the receiver, they just weren't on the same page, and somehow our DB knew where the ball was supposed to go, and the quarterback threw the ball straight to our DB and he ran it back for a touchdown. Like I've I've never I had never seen a play like that before. Like, just I wish I could if I could find the the video, I'll I'll sh I'll send it to you. But um, yeah, like that was just straight film study. And you know, I I remember uh going into going into film that next week, you know, re-watching the game and stuff, and our coach was like, Yeah, we we saw this, we saw them run this play on film, but like, you know, he like him and our DB, they were just arguing back and forth about it because they both saw the play on film, they knew to prepare for the playoff film, but what the way the play played out is like yo, do we say that our corner is wrong because he didn't guard his guy? But then it's like the quarterback threw it to this spot on the field and the quarterback ran to the spot where the guy was supposed to be. Like, that's it's just I don't know, it's just a it's it's a different level of of IQ, I felt like, you know. Like as a it's like as a DB, if you can be where the respeet where the receiver is supposed to be, and the receiver don't even know that he's supposed to be there, like, you know, that's just that's a whole different like it's it's levels to it. That's it's it's just levels to it, man. Like, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

Yeah, no, that that's clamps to me. If if he's in the spot that the receiver's supposed to be, that's clamps, bro. I don't care about none of that. And you got the pick. Like, nah. And see, what I'm thinking now is what the tight end was probably thinking was, oh man, he got me. Let me just turn up field and I'll I'll cook him. But the co like obviously you got to communicate that with with the quarterback. So bro, nah, if if you're if you got your quarterback throwing warm-up throws, that's clamps, bro. That that's clamps. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01 56:50

That bro, I couldn't like I said, that was probably one of the craziest DB plays I've ever seen. But yeah, that's that that showed the importance though of film study and you know, just how just how constantly going in to see coach every day and listening to what coach is telling you is gonna come on game day, like how everything could just turn just showing fruition, you know?

The Value of Loyalty in Sports

SPEAKER_00 57:12

Yeah, for sure. So what what would you say are the benefits of staying in one system long term? Like today's culture, you know, it's it's popular to transfer and and figure out what the best opportunity for you is. What would you say the benefits were for you for staying in one program the whole time?

SPEAKER_01 57:28

So for me, some some of the benefits were getting to maintain those relationships and you know, just having that loyalty, having a place that I could call home and not, you know, leaving on bad terms or anything like that. Because that's that's one thing that's happening a lot with, you know, a lot of these kids is leaving from bigger schools, going to other bigger schools, you know. It's it's not to say that you don't have your own personal relationships, but it's you know, it's just different. You know, once you know you're at a place and you don't finish there and you just leave out to go finish somewhere else. Another thing just getting to learn to to battle through adversity. Like, you know, I had some teammates that in my later years, once the transfer portal started to become a more popular thing, they ended up just leaving whenever things didn't go their way. And, you know, I mean everybody has their reasons for leaving. I'm not saying that, you know, it's right or wrong, but some, you know, I got some teammates who, you know, they wish they didn't leave. You know, they were trying to come back, or you know, even though they left, like they would still be showing up to our game days while they were in the transfer portal. And, you know, they learn really fast that, you know, the grass isn't greener on the other side. Or the grass may not always be greener on the other side. And some people, you know, you'll have this idea about yourself as a player, but you don't really understand what kind of player you are or how people value you until you put yourself out there. And then you realize that it's a lot of coaches that feel like you're average or just like a whole bunch of other, you know, players that they could that they can recruit. Like there's no real like, you know, difference in between you and somebody else. And so my thing is, you know, if you have a spot on a college roster, if you have that opportunity where you're already in somewhere, you know, I'd say max it out, make the most of it. Like, cause you know, people are trying to chase the bag or chase this idea of oh, if I go to a bigger school, I can go to the NFL. When the truth is, you know, if you're talented enough, the NFL is gonna find you. Like, it's plenty of guys that I played against at a Division II ABCU that are playing in the league right now making plays.

SPEAKER_00 59:30

So Yeah, I I uh I think the same. I think the last point was was pretty spot on. Like, you know, we're sometimes we we don't see ourselves accurately. Like we think we're better than we are, we think we deserve better. But in reality, that's not kind of like what you were saying earlier. Like you you thought that you may should have had some opportunities to get on the field, but in practice you were still making the same mistakes, and and uh, you know, you had kind of had to grow through that. So yeah, I think that was probably the best thing that I've heard on this topic is just kind of value the spot you have, because you know, like you said, you may go somewhere else and you're just like the the the third guy on the bench there. Like you may not be any better. So, you know, it's better to just kind of develop in what you have. And then also, like you still get to you still get to learn and you get to it, like you go somewhere else, you gotta learn a whole new system. You got whole new teammates, all new coaches, whole new environment. And and so that could be another factor that prohibits you from from you know being in a better spot than you are right

Building Relationships and Overcoming Adversity

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

now.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:28

I think uh one thing too that I really valued about my position was that um because of the amount of work that I did to get in the position where I was, so um, after our 2021 season, I had the opportunity to hit the transfer portal and and go explore other schools. But um, as football went, I really just had to like take a step back and look at, you know, just what I had built for myself as far as like my position here and you know, my relationship with the coaches, my relationship with my teammates, and then also knowing that like like it's just different because at that point in 2021, dang near every person that was in the room, like I remember their first day of them walking into the room. You know what I mean? So like it was just like it just put me, it really felt like I was out there playing with with the guys, with my boys. And, you know, if I was gonna have this, if I was gonna play this last season and you know, I don't know what's on the other side of this last season, I'd rather spend it, you know, with the boys that I had been grinding with versus me trying to go chase after something that really ain't what it is, or like I'm going to another school and now, you know, I'm I'm not I'm just not that person anymore. I'm not I don't have those kinds of relationships, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:43

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's man, I'm I'm sure your coaches and stuff appreciated that, especially knowing like you, you know, you could have left. And did they ever did they ever bring that up to you or nah?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

So the way it played out was so about I want to say like October or November of that year, I had told a couple of the couple of guys on the team that I was thinking about hitting the portal, because I graduated in the spring and I was looking for a new place to start grad school. And so the word ended up getting back to the coach, to the coaching staff. And so they it'll be times after practice where they would pull me aside and they'd be like, hey, like we heard you thinking about, you know, leaving out after the season's over. And I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna, you know, I'm about to graduate, I'm looking for a place for grad school, this, that, and third. And they're like, dang, Hawk, like, we really want you to stay. Like, you know, we, you know, we we really want you to stay. We really don't want you to go. I was like, you know, coach, I'm gonna I'm gonna think about it. And so after our season was over, we had our uh we had our exit meeting. And uh me and the head coach were sitting there talking, you know, he was going over, you know, the season, the success and everything. As far he was telling me like as far as improvements goes, like he felt that like he wanted me to not be like a coach, but it was like he kind of wanted me to like continue to like mentor the young guys and try to keep the keep their head on straight and stuff like that. And I was telling him, I was like, yeah, coach, I mean, I want it, it's nice to do that, but I'm not gonna lie, I'm kind of thinking about leaving. And so my coach, he he straight up told me, he was like, Man, what do you need? What do what do we need to get you to get you to stay? And I was like, Coach, I don't want to pay for while I'm here. Like, I don't I don't want to pay anything. He was like, Okay, so you you want us to cover your apartment, cover your schooling, cover everything. I was like, Coach, I don't want to pay a dime. And I was like, you know what? We got you. And so they they upped my scholarship that I had been getting, because um with the scholarship that I had, I was still coming out of pocket a little bit. But so that last season, they paid for my what's the name? They paid for they paid for my apartment, they paid for my meal plan. Like I was out there like completely free. Like the only thing I had to worry about was, you know, making sure I could get from point A to point B. And so, you know, I mean it was it was cool. It was cool staying that last year, getting to stay around the guys and you know, continue on those relationships and stuff. And yeah, I just honestly I couldn't see myself leaving. Like, I feel like I had always been that kind of person, like, because even in high school, like there is some time that I was thinking about transferring to Sandy Creek, but you know, it was like, dang, like, I've got these relationships with these guys here. Now, granted, it probably like development-wise or stuff like that, probably things could have been different, but like I just knew the type of person that I was. And, you know, at the end of the day, this is my football career. Like, I don't want to do something with the idea of dang, what if this happened or dang I shouldn't have left this? Like, I I knew the kind of I just knew the kind of person I was.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:49

Yeah, that's that's pretty cool. And that's cool on your coaches too, for you know, doing everything they could to help you stay. And that's also the value of uh, you know, building those relationships. Because who who knows if you wouldn't have you know done all that you did to get to this point you were, if they would have even extended that offer. Because they could have been like, all right, well, see ya. Like just forgot about it. So that is pretty cool that they they they valued you enough and and obviously saw you were you were the impact player that you were. And and also uh an asset to the team for for the younger kids, because that's that's a big thing too, uh, is having um having somebody to guide these freshmen. Cause I mean, I came in when I I grew I turned 18 like the day I moved in to my dorm uh in in August, my freshman year. So it's like you have these young players who need help. Man, I was wilding like my freshman year. Like I it was just a lot of stuff that could have been easily avoided. If I would have had a be a more voice of reason around me, it may have turned out a little bit differently. But I think because I I don't know, man. I I was just kinda in my own head. Like I was far away from home. First time really being away from my parents for an extended period of time. You know, being around teammates who I didn't really know, and also them being a little I'm not gonna say weird because we were all a little weird, but I think just being around a whole bunch of other kids my age that was wild and out of control and it's all of our first time, it was just kind of tough. And not not really seeking those, not really seeking mentorship either. Like I I never really wanted to be helped also. So yeah, it was all kind of I think I think I mean I went through a similar thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:21

Like my red shirt freshman year and then my red shirt year. It was as far as like my relationships outside of football were like the people were you know some pretty good people in my opinion. But you know we were we were kids. You know we were kids first time away from home not really handling stuff with the right maturity and like going into 2019 I put more of an emphasis for myself on being around people who who had the same aspirations as I had and so like you know I naturally started to or I naturally stopped hanging out with certain people and it wasn't like I had any issues with them but like I knew that you know like somebody I met along the way was Jordan. So I knew it was like you know me and Jordan we both are trying to stay out the ways trying to stay from you know getting in any mess really just focus on football or our schoolwork or playing again you know what I'm saying like

Navigating Post-Football Opportunities

SPEAKER_01 1:07:21

it was just yeah just trying to be around the right people. Yeah yeah that's that's big and so I want to kind of transition to the post-football opportunities you had some opportunities to kind of get to the next level how how exactly did that come about and how did that end up working out so after my last season I had um or yeah after my last season um I had gotten an invite to go and play in this one all-star game down in Alabama and so while I was still in Albany I would still be training with the team I'd go and go to the field by myself like I was I would still you know just be working out doing my thing and then I went to the all-star game and it very fast it very it showed me very fast like how much do I really want to you know stick stick in this because the all-star game was like super unorganized. Like I'm talking about like we didn't have a place to stay it was old dilapidated dorms. Like I remember pulling up and um I pulled up to the college they told us to go to and it was probably like 45 minutes to an hour outside of Montgomery and bro the college campus was like closed. Like it looked like it hadn't been messed with for like a decade. And so I'm trying to get in touch with the coaches that uh that set up the thing because they hit me up on Twitter. And so they tell me to go to this um this community center and we just have to it's like me and the rest of the dudes that are supposed to be in this game mind you it's some people that drove like 10 12 hours it's some people that that flew down here from like Maryland or you know up north like we all just sitting in in this community center not really knowing like what's about to go down. It's some people in there they're hungry because they ain't they haven't had any food nobody's fed them anything the only place that's nearby is a church's chicken that's like a 10 minute walk because we're in the middle of nowhere Alabama like it was just a it was a whole I ain't gonna lie it was a bad experience but like all of us that were there and I went through that like you know it was something that like you know a lot of us will still like if I ever see some of them boys like we'll still still bond about it to this day you know just getting through that adversity. And so while there were some scouts and stuff there from different NFL and UFL teams and you know they were talking to some people here and there. And after our first day yeah after our first day we ended up doing like a we had to do like a weigh in and stuff and so they made us strip down like our boxers and we were standing in front of like all these people they were measuring they measure everything like your arm length finger length leg length like they they got everything it's crazy foot size hands like man it it was it was a weird experience but I I think I stayed there for two days and we did two practices there. The first practice that we did it was in it was on this muddy field. It was a terrible field. We're out there slipping and sliding I did pretty decent I ended up getting like a pick or two then the next day we practiced on the field that they were supposed to have the all-star game at and that field was terrible too and then people started getting hurt out there like I think one dude unfortunately I think he he like tore his knee up or something like that. So they didn't really have too many people out there like at that point I was more so thinking about my safety and it was like okay if I do want to keep playing this then I don't really know if this event or if this you know um all-star game was you know gonna help better my chances of you know showcasing my talents because because just of how bad the field is already we can't really you know showcase too much. And so on after that second practice uh you know I told I told the guy it was me and a few other guys we were you know we told him we were leaving out and the coaches that were there uh he's one of the coaches that were there when I told him I was leaving he he tried to sit down and talk to me he said he was like you know it's it may be times that you know you're trying to bounce from team to team and you may not have a spot to stay and you know you just got to withstand all this stuff and they were trying to say like because we were HBCUs we should be able to you know go withstand some adversity and stuff like that. And so like that really just kind of put me in a mindset of like you know what if I'm if I'm gonna play football at the next level if it's meant to be this just isn't the place where it's is you know going gonna happen. So I'ma just have to go a different route or you know figure out things myself or just be okay with you know not playing football. And so I ended up telling the coach I was like yeah you know I'm just I'm just gonna leave anyway. So on my drive back in my head I was kind of just thinking about I was like dang like you know that this may have been my last opportunity to play football and you know it sucks that it ended like this but I'd rather you know be able to walk away from the game versus you know something happened in game and now you know I know I can't play anymore. And so it was funny though because right when I got back to Albany that same night I ended up getting I ended up getting an invite to the HBCU Legacy Bowl and so like it was it was funny because the Legacy Bowl that was kind of like the big all-star game for us HBCUs and my teammates uh they were all at the spot they were all like a handful of them were at my apartment like the apartment I was sharing with a couple other teammates and they were constantly checking in with me about how the all-star game was and if I had made any plays or if I could send them any film and stuff like that. So when I originally told them that I was leaving out and I was going to head back to Albany, you know, they were pretty upset and they were telling me like oh no you should stick it out you should stick it out this that and the third and I was telling I was like you know I got I just got a story to tell y'all because at first I was I I told them that we didn't have a place to stay but they didn't really understand how bad it was so like right when I parked in the parking lot that's when the legacy ball had had DM'd me everything on Instagram so it was like it was kind of like a mini celebration getting to walk into the spot and then tell them boys like hey like y'all not gonna believe it but I just got I just got this invite and so that was a a pretty cool moment but that game wasn't until February and so I ended up leaving out of Albany in December and when I came home I found trainer shout out to Jay and Mike Jay had Elite 1% and then Mike I forgot what his thing was but uh they had this gym down in Fayetteville where they were training um a handful of a handful of athletes uh some people going pro some people in high school and I was I was just grinding my days out there getting you know trying to get better trying to get ready for the next level I got down to the legacy bowl and it was a complete switch up from uh what I had what I had experienced in Alabama and so we we flew in there we flew into New Orleans they had charter buses for us to take from the airport to the hotel the hotel was in downtown New Orleans right across the street from the Superdome it was like it was just a super a super nice experience. They fed us well got to uh they had Mardi Gras going on at the same time so it was funny because it was really like a business trip but they put us in the middle of you know essentially what's like a party city and so I think it was really just about seeing how focused we would be and how serious we would take it. And so you know I was just making sure I was on my P's and Q's getting my breakfast when I needed to getting my stretches in getting a little workout here and there and making sure I practiced good. I had some I had some pretty good practices competed well in our one-on-ones got to the game at a pretty decent game just the at that point most of my I guess pressure that I was getting from professional teams came from like indoor teams or overseas teams and ideally I wanted to I wanted to play in the NFL or CFL so I just kept pushing for that I had my pro day and after our pro day I went and did a couple of a couple of CFL tryouts that were in Atlanta and it was it was just a journey. But what really put things in perspective for me as far as just if I wanted to continue on with doing this was or not was uh it was one day over the summer after our uh I think this was after the pro day or after the CFL tryout one of the two but I was at I was at Fayette running on the field with the tire on my back like just working on building up and increasing my my top end speed and holding that top end speed and uh I ended up pulling my hamstring out there. And you know that was the first time I had ever had to deal with an injury and it wasn't like there was no like immediate medical personnel or immediate trainer or anything like that. Like it was really just me and the person I had been training with but he's you know he's not no medical person. You know he went and got me some ice but you know it really just put things in perspective for me. And then also too I saw how you know some of these teams you know Dell you want you to go try out for them or you know want you to go do you know just see what you're talking about. And if you get hurt playing with these teams and they just gonna send you back home and now you got to figure it out while you still got you know a bum ankle or messed up hamstring messed up knee like and you essentially you know if you go on the route of being a professional football player your body is your currency. And so it just like I said it just put things in perspective for me. And I just understood it's like I understood and I respected the grind about it but just with where my body was I I knew I I knew I was I was coming to an end and so I just chose to preserve my body rather than you know continuing on to play football.

Reflections on a Football Career and Moving Forward

SPEAKER_00 1:17:21

Wow that's a great story. Did that allow you to maintain like all the positive things that you have learned over your career or did that kind of put a damper on things just because it ended in that way even though it wasn't unsuccessful it just didn't necessarily turn out how you thought it would like what did you think overall?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:39

So I mean I was like for me I just felt like I I was just grateful for the opportunity like it didn't really take away anything for me because I felt like like I was just surprised that I was still playing football as long as I was because in 2018 I remember after that football season I just did like I had my personal life was going bad like I did real bad in the classroom. Like I honestly thought my season was or my career was going to be over back then. And you know God bless me with allowing me to somehow some way come back to school another year and being able to play one more year. And so after that it was kind of just like dang like what I'll just be happy with anything I do after this point. And then you know even again with the with the all-star game like that first all-star game I went to when I was driving home like I was kind of just thinking about like dang you know this that's probably it and so the fact of the matter that I got the legacy bowl invite is like you know what let's let's just see what happens you know like it was really kind of like just surprising for me to see just like some of the things like happen the way that they did and so I guess now like it's like I don't really have like regrets about like football or like you know like of course there's things that I excuse me of course there's things that I wish I could have done differently but as far as just like feeling like ill-mannered about the game or anything like that like I just I don't really feel that way. Like like I said a lot of the things that happened to me like I wasn't even really expecting it to happen. So I was just I was I was pretty happy with where I was and just being able to and then also too like because I went through the injuries that I went through in college like so also too in 2018 I had a I was playing with a torn labor. And so that off season going into 2019 I was I was out that whole that whole offseason I just had surgery I was walking around with a big old cast on my arm like I I honestly thought that would be the last time I was going to get surgery and then going into 2021 three games into the season I break my hand and you know when that happened it was like dang like okay this is just the nature of the game like you know if I'm gonna play this especially at this level or a higher level you know this is just a part of the risk. And then at the end of that season I got a pinch nerve. And so it really just put for me it put like a bigger emphasis on like I'd rather be healthy than continue to play this game or continue to put myself at risk. And so you know like once I did get hurt and I wasn't within the realm of like having like an immediate trainer or something like that, it was like okay I I just gotta I gotta assess these risks. And it just felt like for me the risk outweighed the benefit. And it's not to say the benefit isn't a lot because you know you make it to the NFL that's you know that's childhood dream but it's so slim and so like like chances to making that or making that is so slim. And then you got to think too like say if you don't make it that year that you come out of college you can grind and you know try to hope for that opportunity that next year but you're no longer just going against the guys who's on the same type of timing that you're on but you're also going against a whole new fresh set of guys coming out of college. Like it's just it just put things in perspective for me. Just getting just being able to see the whole the whole picture of everything it just made me more appreciative of everything I had done up until that point.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:11

Yeah that's great. And and that kind of for me puts it it kind of reminds me of just how many things have to work out just for you to even get a sliver of the next level even not even talking about the NFL CFL arena football or overseas whatever like it's just it's so much that go that goes into not only getting those opportunities but also being able to step into that next level so that's good that you um you went out on a high note and and I I like your perspective though because you got to like such a low point everything else was basically just a just an add-on so it wasn't like you kind of were you you didn't feel entitled to anything. That's great that you got to experience the the the real I guess HBCU uh the legacy bowl um after after that first I'm sure I'm sure that was pretty frustrating and and everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:00

Yeah and it like I said it was just funny because um like I said a lot of us guys that were at that game we bonded after after leaving there because we understood we what we went through and like one of the things that we had said after that last practice was um hey y'all boys I'm gonna catch y'all in New Orleans you know a lot of us were saying that jokingly we hadn't gotten an invite we were still waiting you know what I'm saying and you know sure enough a handful of the boys that were there ended up you know we ended up digging that invite to New Orleans and so uh you know after the game we were taking pictures and stuff like that like you know it it was just it was a it was a bad experience but I met some great people through that experience yeah that's pretty cool you kind of full circle moment so any closing thoughts we talked about a great deal I think you shared some great insights give us some some uh some tips on on current athletes and maybe even former athletes what they can learn from from your story just to push through adversity you you never know what's on the other side that's one another another one is be flexible you know again you just never know what's on the other side you know you you try that one thing that you may have an itch for you may just you know it's like hey you know I I'm trying to make things work in this one position but it's not really working let me see what happens when I you know try another position you you may find more success than what you found in your first position but just take advantage of every opportunity that you get like you know I think in in high school or you know at the lower levels you can be entitled to certain things especially like when the playing field is so vast you know you got some people who is their first year playing and you may be somebody who's been playing since you were younger or you know even with coaching but you know just just take advantage of every opportunity. And yeah that's the one of the biggest things to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:55

The biggest takeaway from today's conversation is this becoming the player you want to be requires staying long enough to become the player your program can trust. Everybody wants the role and the recognition but those things are not given right away. Whether we're talking about staying out of school for the long haul overcoming the adversity of fighting for playing time or transferring after the first season the bigger conversation always comes back to the athlete experience. Athletes still need guidance and perspective and people who understand what it feels like from the inside so before we leave the locker room make sure you're subscribed and locked in for the next episode. If this conversation gave you something to think about comment with your thoughts and share it with another athlete and remember the game changed but your story's still being written take care and God bless