434: The Den (2013)

This week we're going online with The Den (2013). We revisit the wild west nostalgia of Chatroulette culture, debate how well the screen-life format builds tension, and unpack where the third act loses the plot. This episode contains spoilers, beginning at 36:27.

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Mentioned in the Episode

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The Den (2013)

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Music Credits

"Hack or Slash" by Daniel Stapleton

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

We were so optimistic about what humanity is like. We really had the brightest eyes, the bushiest tails, the best of intentions. In 2013, a filmmaker set out to tell a story using the same tools that millions of people use every day. Instead of traditional cameras and staging, he built his film entirely through laptops, webcams, and chat windows. Writer and director Zach Fredonahue developed the project around the idea that the internet could service both the setting and the camera, capturing events exactly as they unfold through a screen. And the story he tells follows a graduate student conducting research on webcam culture, observing strangers from her apartment as part of a study on digital behavior. But when she witnesses something she never intended to see, her role shifts from observer to participant, and the barrier between her and the people on the other side of the screen begins to dissolve. This week, we're talking about the dead. Greetings and salutations, and welcome to Hackerslash. If you're joining us again, welcome back. If this is your first time listening, welcome to The Party, where a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

A total joke, a waste of time, or a slash.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Totally a killer, pun intended. We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're rating these movies with a perspective we've gained from our varying walks of life and the flavors of fear we fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your friendly neighborhood slash enthusiast. This week I'm joined by the classic horror connoisseur Sean.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

You wish a guy like this would hack you.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

And the paranormal paramour Binks. When you find him, tell him he's got a tiny dick. The people have spoken and our patrons have decided which movie we're covering this week.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

That's right. You're tuning in for the den. But if you support the show, you'll also get to hear our B-side at the end of this episode where we get into the early wild days of the internet.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

This movie was nominated by Sarah, who said, This movie is the reason I had tape on my laptop's webcam through the 2010s. It hacks into the fear of being watched and the deepest, darkest parts of the internet. It does a great job of building tension and an unsettling ending.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

You know, I was never a tape over the webcam kind of person, but Sarah, I get it. I get it, and I am so excited to see of my two friends here. Which one of you have seen this before?

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Well, I have not. I have not. Not only have I not, I have never heard of this movie before. And I just love that. Every time it's just like a new little moment or nugget of found footage that I have yet to uncover, and I'm so happy to do so.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Yeah, for sure. It's the same for me. I have not heard of this movie before, not seen it. The name sounded familiar, but as soon as I started watching this movie, I knew like, nope, I have no idea what's going on here.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

You know, Sean, you text me when you're watching this movie, and you revealed obviously that you had never seen this before, and I was right there with you. I'm like, yeah, dude, I'm gonna watch it later. I've never heard of this movie before. And then I watched it and I was like, oh shit, I've seen this multiple times. I guess I just never knew what the title of the movie was, which is crazy because the den is the website, but it shows like I just was never that towed into the den being the name of the chat site. I just keep thinking of it as like a chat roulette kind of situation. But yeah, I've actually seen this multiple times.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Wow, look at that.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

That's brilliant. We've had a couple moments. I mean, we all have, right? Where you're kind of like, I've never seen this movie, and then you're like, damn, I thought this movie was named something else entirely. Well, you know, unfriended.

unknown 3:44

What?

SPEAKER_01 3:45

There's a lot of movies that we've seen since this movie came out that are a found footage and incorporate laptops, webcams, etc. Or do what this movie does, which is more of like the screen life. So we mentioned War of the Worlds actually a few episodes ago in some context. We had a listener write in, hey, screen life is something totally separate from found footage. I consider it to be a cousin to, it's a similar experience, but this movie in its poster, I think this the poster is really what had me messed up because I saw the title and I saw the poster, and I was like, Yeah, no, I've never seen it. It looks kind of like a digital 13 ghosts. And that's where that's where I was just completely thrown off. If I had pulled up this movie on a streaming platform when I saw that it was announced, and I saw the main character or even some of the webcam activity that happens, I would be like, oh yeah, I've clocked this so many times.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

For sure. But I can tell you, I had no idea what this movie was about at all. I didn't read anything about it going into it. I just heard we were literally reviewing this one, thought by the name I might have watched it, threw it on, realized I didn't, and just and just had a time, I guess you could say. My initial thought was really honestly, just with the title, Some House in the Woods, but boy, was I way off on that one.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

I'm with you because when I read the nomination, I didn't even make the assumption that the covering of the webcam meant that this was going to be a screen live film. I just thought maybe there was some kind of like recordings, like found tapes, maybe in that direction of an abandoned area in the woods or cabin. I don't know. I don't know. Uh that's the extent of it though. When the screen turned on, I was like, wait a freaking second, what are we about to watch? We're watching that one episode of Modern Family or Mythic Quest. Oh God. Screaming. No, but I I didn't realize it that it was gonna be about that. And I think that that's a good thing, right? So once that was very clear, I thought, okay, is this about to be a hit or miss for me? Because these kinds of films are very limited in what they can do and how effective they can be. And so I'm like, all right, maybe low budget. I already hadn't heard of this film. Is this gonna be a bit cheesy? Maybe a bit crass, like, is it actually gonna be scary? Screen life films, the bar is host for me. That movie is one of the scariest movies I've ever seen. So I've like, that's probably extreme, and maybe people don't feel that way. That's fair. That movie fucked me up. So when I see a Screen Life film, I'm like, either your host or your toast.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

That was actually really cute. Good job. Thanks. I try. That was that was really good. Yeah, so man, I I'm a little torn on this one, and I want to walk you through a couple of schools of thought. And where I feel like I need to represent for this film is how I felt the first several times that I watched it. And less what it hits now. Now it just it doesn't, it's not as satisfying now that we've seen what screen life can really be, what found footage can really be. But I was just sitting back on this, and I remember the first time I watched this thinking, damn. There was like a slow erosion of a false sense of security and safety that defines the whole experience of this movie. You start out with this familiarity, which is like chatting online with strangers, you click through random faces, we're talking about like chat roulette, but you're a spectator and an observer without consequence. And so framing it that way in the year that this movie came out, being not very far removed from the wild, wild west of the internet days when we were all coming up through like high school and middle school. I mean, this was a different sensation. However, watching it now in 2026, it's a little less satisfying.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

It is for sure. I thought you were gonna say the first half and not the first couple times you were watching it, because for me, it really felt like kind of a mixed bag, to be honest. I think the film did a really good job in the first half building tension with the you know on-screen found footage vibe that it had going for it, but I also can't ignore how I don't even know if terrible is the word, but just ridiculous the sound in this movie was for me. I feel like I think it was the point. I think it was the point, maybe, but I why did I feel like someone just put on ocean sounds behind this video?

SPEAKER_01 8:25

My guy, it's because they didn't have studio quality mics.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Okay. I literally, if I go to my home speaker and just say play ocean sounds to go to bed, that's what this movie fucking sounded like until it didn't. And then there were moments where the audio was super clear and the music was just blasting way too loud. Like it just felt like it was either clear and too loud or just ocean sounds.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

My guy, I need you to take a look at what what iPhone was out in 2013? It was iPhone 5 or the 4S.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

And I want you to think about the technology of that time. Think about the Mac around that time, think about PCs around that time, think about the quality of microphones around that time. All I'm saying is if you're gonna be true to it, you can't have cinematic level quality audio. It's gonna just break the whole immersion.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

I get it. I that's why I say I think it was the point, and I totally get it. Like they're really trying for that vibe and to be, I mean, it is that time too, but like for me, it just made it hard to like to listen to what was going on. It was either I couldn't hear what was happening over the fucking wind tunnel that I was in, or everything was so loud I had to turn the TV down.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

No, no, no, that's fair. I did need subtitles very desperately.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

It's funny that you bring that up though, because here's the problem that I ran into the subtitles were covering the text messages or the video calls, so I had to turn them off because I couldn't see what the heck they were freaking saying. Someone call the AEA because it's not looking very good. It's not looking very good on that front. However, I feel very similar to the both of you. I think it was like a big wave of nostalgia. I haven't thought about chat roulette in a long time, you know? It reminded me not to get on random chat rooms. Maybe don't click random links that people send you. How funny people can be.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

This movie actually living in that world. Don't click on random links that people send you.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

Fair enough. That's very, very true. Please, for the love of God, do not do that.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Someone though, across the world who's looking for a trusted partner that will give you a million dollars if you just help switch some currency over. That is totally legit. That was fantastic, by the way, that scene.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

I gotta tell you though, I felt like the movie surprised me in how like funny it was in a way, but also scary. It was a little cringe, a little cheapy, but I was entertained throughout. I was a little locked in, I'm not gonna affront. I was curious as to where this was gonna go. Maybe a little bit predictable, sure, because most of these are and whatnot, but I it also could be that the chat roulette of it all, right? Like the randomness that comes about the wild, wild west of the web is always gonna be enticing.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Yeah, you know, when you consider just how we've changed as people, imagine a world in which we all really doubled and tripled down on chat roulette, we'd probably have a little less social anxiety, you know? Fuck it. Let's just start meeting internet strangers every five seconds. But I was thinking about this, because in this movie, you can move on to the next chat, move on to the next chat, move on to the next chat. I'm like, damn. This was like even clocking before dating apps became what they are now. They now that they didn't exist, like you had plenty of fish, you had okay Cupid, but before it became just the swipable game now, where you're just window shopping other people's lives, which is such a crazy thing to consider. And that's where I think this movie, surprisingly, uh, is pretty strong. It's a movie that plays on recognition and familiarity. But I don't know that someone even maybe significantly younger than us is gonna look at this and be like, oh wow, that's entertaining. I also don't think they're gonna look at it and be like, wow, that's what the internet was like. It loses a little bit of its ground in not being a super strong movie otherwise. I think it's a fun watch in terms of looking back on this and thinking about okay, this was one of the earlier films to do it. It's been done better since. But a movie that takes you in your experience with webcams with uh social media platforms, with uh chat rooms, and then praise on the implied privacy of you being alone in your home. That's a dangerous world on the other side of the screen, but in here I'm safe. A movie that plays with that idea and wrestles with it is entertaining. But then the problem is like looking back on it, and this is where the disappointment comes in. It's it's not quite as good. And the ending was fucking terrible.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Yeah, I think that's the tough part. I think other than just being surprised just out of pure ignorance that this movie was just a digital internet webcam horror flick, I think the surprising element was all the kind of nostalgic vibes that you got just going through that first half of the movie with the webcam chat roulette stuff and just all like the weird nonsense that was going on, right? Like I think that was a surprising element for me. But much to your point, Chris, I just can't help but be disappointed by how I don't know if you know maybe absurd this movie got in the third act. I think everything that made it good in the in the first half was squandered and lost in the second half. It just completely fell apart. It got too large scale and too over the top that it just lost me.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Yeah, I think that it was better when it stopped at a certain point and didn't try to say something bigger than was necessary. I think it took itself a little bit too seriously in the last couple minutes. That really takes you out of the whole experience. And I really wasn't disappointed by much up until then because I really just said it to myself that this is just a lower budget, quick little fun watch, you know. I don't think that I really took it too seriously myself when you've got the quality of acting and you know, the camera quality is all kinds of like classically choppy and shit, you know. Like it's just you can't really quite see certain things, anyways, but let's just go for the ride, anyways. We can't hear something. Oh, fuck it. I guess I don't really need to hear it. You know, like little things like that, because it's just like I'm curious as to what's the next chat room gonna be or what's the like next creepy thing that the guy's gonna do. I I don't necessarily need to get too deep into the lore of the story.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

When are we gonna see that amazing phallic puppet again?

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Plenty of appearances.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

God, the best part. I gotta tell you. I gotta tell you. But I think that being said, I also what I wasn't expecting, thus extremely surprised by was it really got dark at times with like it's I mean, maybe Sean you'll feel differently, but it was got a little graphic there every now and then. There was some grit to it towards the ends where maybe I didn't like the third act, but some of the setting and the overall look of it did get grittier that reminded me of a couple other movies that I enjoy. That's more found footage, it's not screen life, but I was kind of surprised by that. There were some moments where I thought, okay, we could have actually leaned in a bit more with the gore, but others where I was like, ooh, they're talking about something here. That'd be uncomfy.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

I'm realizing now that I had an opinion on the end of this movie and you had an opinion on the end of this movie, but I think we're talking about different parts of the ending. I think I was talking about the third act and the the pre-end, and you're talking about the end end being the thing that you fucking hated. Yeah, no, the end end, end end, like epilogue. Uh whereas I think the epilogue redeemed a little bit of the bullshit that we got a little bit of the messiness of.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Not too much, not too much. The epilogue is like I can see where you're where you're coming from though. Maybe they just like took the story a little bit too far, they should have just kind of like cut that section. I I see it.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Yeah, I think I need a little consolidation, and we'll we'll get there unpacking this in the spoilers on listener. If you don't know what the hell we're talking about, I promise you, we got you. But when I consider what this movie makes you feel, again, is that nostalgia. A is a little bit of the laughter with the dick rolling of it all. But it is certainly not the same level of fear and anxiety. It felt like foreboding and like a forewarning back in the day when it was like, okay, well, this is why you don't talk to strangers on the internet. Listen, now we're all strangers on the internet. And sometimes we find so much great community on the internet that it's just you don't quite fall into the same levels of fear like you do here. Not to say that you shouldn't take it seriously or that it's not a weapon in a lot of different ways. Believe me, we're seeing right now just how badly the web can be weaponized for things. But it is one of those things where I think what is scariest about this movie is not what they paid mine to really build up the fear of. And I'll unpack more about that in the second half.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Yeah, I mean, I think that this movie it's definitely trying to tap into that fear of the internet and the fucked up shit that you can find on the internet, and I can see it being really effective for some people. The whole premise, at least, in the first half, feels uncomfortably plausible, and that in and of itself can be really effective. But for me, I mean, I just I never I've never been somebody that was afraid of like covering webcams. Is somebody watching me? Is somebody not? And maybe that's just you know, ignorance is bliss kind of thing. Maybe people have hacked into my shit and been watching me, but hey, you gotta you maybe you got a show, maybe you didn't. I don't know. But I just that shit doesn't bother me.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

They're just hacking into your camera, like, why the fuck does this guy play so much magic? Yeah, I mean, the only thing on my webcam is Magic the Gathering, so literally they're fucking looking at my webcam and it's just me doing spreadsheets or me playing the Sims. But they're probably seeing Wicked Whims, so spicy, spicy.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Even it is crazy though, even in this movie with all of the fucking dick puppets and dick swinging that's happening. It like as of this recording, for all those that are listening, as of this recording right now on this night, it is the lunar new year, the year of the horse. It for us is the year of the fucking cock. I'm I shit you not like every movie, every movie.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Yeah, that's you're not wrong. You're wrong. Holy shit. I think the the streak is probably gonna get broken very soon. Fuck what movies next.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Yeah, we must the streak might be over. Freddie versus Jason.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Nope, not over.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Not over. Oh, that's true.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Anyways, yeah, when okay, you know, it in the real terrible thing, listener, is that this is never intentional. Sometimes you really just be knowing what's going on in our subconscious by the thinnest threads. Like when Binks and I were going through some terrible family stuff and we just stumbled into a whole lot of grief movies.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

It was also more specifically that the grief movies that we were covering were like the elderly or like like motherhood and stuff. So I was like, that's pretty fucking nuts. Yeah, I don't know what it is. Maybe it's a hive mind situation. I'm here for it. Sean, you mentioned that you were never really scared of like webcam like watching and stuff like that. I was thinking back to that time when you had mentioned that because I'm thinking, okay, what was I doing in 2013? You know, I was in college, I was on Tumblr a lot. I guess I was like on webcam still, like taking pictures or whatever, you know, or like on Skype with friends and stuff. Not as much because at that point, you know, AOL was long gone, aim long gone. You know, it was all Facebook. And so I'm like, okay, I webcam stuff wasn't really like the big, big thing. But that being said, I think it's always that I'm looking so intently when I'm on, or rather, when I'm watching a screen life film, I'm looking at everything constantly. My eyes are constantly moving to try to see or expect a scare. And I'm always fucking God. Like I'm always surprised. Maybe not always, but like when the intention is a jump scare, it will surprise me because I'm looking too intently at just the wrong fucking thing. And there was a moment at the end that I full on did a little jump on my couch. So good for this movie. It still did not scare me as much as host, but you know, it it did some things that I did not expect.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

You know, and it's really there in that moment. The it does some things that I didn't expect where this movie is its best. Again, unfortunately, it's not the strongest execution of this concept. But I think if you even date back this approach felt like it was still emerging in 2013. There's a lot of other screen life movies that we can reference that came maybe a little bit before this and also a little bit after this, you know, sorry, even in like 2014. But what's interesting about this movie is it it makes the internet feel like both a window and also a cage at the same time. And what's cool to think about is this is uh the lens through which we felt we felt fear about the unknown and the internet and perversion and just how predatory uh people could be. What's wild is considering what if you remake that sp this specific movie with that same intent right now? Because this movie does deal with a lot more. It deals with the distribution of non-consensual images, it deals with vulnerabilities and exploitation. But that's not the biggest aspect of this movie. But what if you just turn the lens forward a few years, 13 years later, and you really dig into what does it mean to be afraid of what's happening online right now? It's a completely different ballgame. So I give this movie credit for being a time capsule, I think, of 2013 internet.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Yeah, it's fair. I think it's definitely not a new concept, but when you really think about it for 2013, it may have been something semi-new for a 2013 movie. It definitely there probably are some movies that came out right in and around this time, right before this time. It definitely predates, you know, to your point, Binks host, right? It predates host, it predates searching. And then dark web horror in and of itself at this time probably wasn't oversaturated, so it still felt modern and edgy. I think the problem is with these types of technology type movies, when you watch it back now, you know, 13 years later or whatever, it just feels because technology moves so quickly, it just feels a little bit less edgy.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

It for sure feels less edgy, but then let's also just think about what are the concepts that you lean into here, right? So for example, there are things that are happening today that we think about the book 1984. There are things that are happening today that feel very Orwellian. You can adapt the same story and the same filter across many decades, across many generations, across many lifetimes, but the heart of it and how effective it is has to be felt through the execution of the storytelling rather than strictly rely upon like the technology of the time, which is where I think this movie trips it up a little bit. And that's where I think it loses its teeth with its ending. Again, not the very end of the conclusion, not that, but where this movie starts to reach its climax, it just feels a little like okay, it's a little much, right? It's a little much.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Yeah, and I think of I mean, of all the movies in that genre, right? I don't know if there's that, that many. I think I did like a Google search earlier and I was like so kind of surprised by some of these that I hadn't seen yet and whatnot, but it didn't seem like a robust list either, you know? One that always comes to mind when I'm thinking of screen life films, aside from searching and missing, because those are more thriller, and I really enjoyed those movies, is Megan is missing. And I believe that came out 2011. So it predates this one. And I remember when that came out, that was terrifying. I mean, I was a little bit younger, you know. And I remember feeling similar to what I think this movie's trying to evoke, which is the whole, like, especially as a girl, you know, on the internet, curious, trying to get to know people, build connections. In this case, it's more of a research-based situation, right? Megan is missing, younger demographics, she's a teen, just trying to get to know people, and you just stumble upon the wrong fucking thing. And it's just, although something that doesn't feel very original because that seems to be duplicated across a lot of the films that we've seen in this genre, whether it be friends stumbling upon something or a singular, right? Whatever the case may be, it is something that's extremely relatable. But all that aside, it just tells me that the very last moments of the movie kind of tried to tell us something that I think I already uh knew all along. I think it was almost like spoon feeding it, maybe a little bit too on the nose, a little bit too like, hey, did you get it? Did you get the big picture? And it's like, yeah, well, I mean, this came out in 2013. The internet's been around now for a little bit. Of course I got the big picture, you know? And definitely I felt that way now in 2026. So maybe I'd would have felt differently if I saw this ending at that time, and maybe felt it would have felt a little bit more impactful, I suppose, but it just seemed a little bit too cheesy, just in the wrong direction in terms of those last final moments.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Yeah, for me, I think we've been talking about it. The ending is where this movie fell apart for me. I think it stretches the believability a little bit too far, in my opinion. I think it escalates and gets too large scale. I think I I guess I can see some people thinking that it might make the film even more disturbing, maybe even more ambitious, but to me it just got a little bit too ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Oh, I can't wait to see how that ridiculousness fares with this movie's ratings. But before we get there, Sean, how would you describe the gore score?

SPEAKER_00 27:01

It feels worse than it looks, if that makes sense. Because most of the horror comes from implication, tension, and dread, not actual gore and blood splatter. There definitely, no doubt about it, there's some violent moments for sure. And when they happen, they're sudden, they feel raw and intimate because of the webcam point of view. But because everything is pretty much shown through webcams or laptop screens, you don't get any lingering close-up practical shots of gore. So it's really just earning itself a low gore score.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

And what about the animal report? Shockingly, all safe. We even get a funny cat video. Let's go ahead and get into our ratings then. The den from 2013, as chosen by our patrons, was it a hack or a slash?

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Well, I'll kick this off. I think the den it starts out way stronger than I expected it to. I think the first half of this movie is genuinely tense. The webcam format feels invasive in a clever way, and the slow escalation from awkward chat roulette weirdness to something darker is handled with surprising restraint. I think there's a certain intimacy to watching everything unfold through a laptop screen that builds some real paranoia for sure. I think it taps into that fear of being watched, recorded, archived, or whatever. And for for a while it does work. But then the third act happens, and what begins as contained escalates into something so absurd and overblown that it undercuts the grounded terror the movie worked so hard to establish in the first half of the movie. And the escalation, it just doesn't feel earned for me. And don't get me started, we already talked about the audio. I wasn't into it as much as they wanted to tap into the realism or what have you with the technology of that time. I just couldn't get I just couldn't buy into it. And because I don't know, for a movie that lives and dies by digital immersion, the audio constantly pulls you out of it. And by the end of it, what could have been a tight tech age nightmare turns into a messy conspiracy spiral that really never fully lands for me. There is a solid 45-minute horror short buried in here somewhere for sure. But as for the movie as a whole, this one starts with a strong connection, but by the end, the whole movie buffers into a full-blown hack for me.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

You and I'm worthy would have had a field day with this.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Well, look, let this serve as a cautionary tale, a reminder and callback to millennials that fucked around and found out too much during the ramp-up of the internet. I feel like this was a strong reminder that it is really the wild, wild west out there, still present day. Definitely was the case back then. And I would imagine that webcam covers must have flown off the shelves when movies like this came out, you know, between the Megan is missing and this, and most certainly, you know, other films that have come out after the fact, even now, right? With host and unfriended, etc. It felt familiar as a general genre. We talked about how found footage and screen life, they are cousins, right? They're so similar. And that is a genre that I really enjoy watching. It doesn't get me dizzy or it doesn't feel too cheap for me. I actually get really, you know, get caught into the moment. I don't want to say that I'm chronically online, but I certainly love being on the computer and stuff. So I felt like it felt relatable in that regard, right? But ultimately, the genre kind of like keeping my curiosity can only take it so far. And I think as the movie went on and on and didn't end where it needed to be, to kind of just land strong with a very ominous, creepy ending, it kept going to then try to say something that I think was already pretty clear from the very beginning. It felt a little bit too on the nose, like I just mentioned. And it overall felt like a cheapened dollar store version of a screen life horror when when it started off, it actually felt like it could be in the running in a contestant for maybe like a top five, right? I I really enjoyed it. I thought it was pretty fun for it being low budget. I'm I'm not expecting something grandiose either, right? And so unfortunately, it had potential, most certainly. And I thought I was going to end up slashing this, but when we got to the very bitter end, it slipped right back into the hack territory.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

You know, this movie's a tough one. If I were to watch it and assess it for the very first time right now, I think 100% I'd be aligned on hack territory. But I do think this movie deserves credit for innovation. The execution does not transcend its era. It's not the best of its kind, it's not the best in show or its class. But what I appreciate is the fact that it does succeed as more of a concept, even if it doesn't really execute as a character-driven story. It captures a cultural fear at the exact moment the fear was forming. And I think that's such a cool thing to look back on. And it it poses the question of what are we really afraid of? What could we or should we be afraid of? Is it the strangers on the internet or is it the person beside you who is capable of these things? The people who keep this industry alive, the people who will throw money at this so someone else is continues to be enticed to participate in this. And that's where I think this movie deserves a little bit more credit, even for its last moments. I've given a separate movie that's a slasher a lot of credit for a very similar ending. And it's so funny because I haven't seen this movie in a very long time, at least not since the slasher, and I'll reveal that in the second half to not give anything away right now. But to look back now on this, watching this for the first time since watching this other movie in 2019, it's like, damn, okay, this was the this was here, the writing was on the wall. And what I appreciate now is considering if this same movie would be made today, right now, how much how scary could they really make it? And I think in a day right now, where we exist, the scariest thing about technology is how we can no longer fully trust our own eyes, and how we have to be very cognizant and very diligent with our media literacy and how we are engaging the world around us. So I think this movie actually is ripe with potential for being remade, but just it can never be remade or recaptured in the way that it was here in 2013 in a chat forum. So I'm gonna give this one a slash. It's a light slash. It is a I'm respecting it as someone who saw it when it came out, someone who saw it multiple times since then. I wish it had a more memorable title, but I think it's fun enough if you want a screen life or a fountain footage kind of situation. And with that, the den, as chosen by our patrons, has earned two hacks and one slash. Now you can't find this movie streaming online, so go check it out. Then join us in the second half so we can dig into all these spoilers together. We'll see you in a bit.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

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SPEAKER_01 36:36

Now, before we get into the specifics of our ratings, Sean, let's go through that sleigh by sleigh.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Yeah, let's let's get into it because it kind of feels like there aren't a ton of kills in this one, but it's not actually not a low body count. It's not a body count slasher, that's for sure. It's more about targeted violence and escalation. And the kills are, you know, sudden and intimate because everything happens through these webcams. The violence feels a little bit more intrusive in that way. But all that being said, we do get eight kills to talk through in this one. So I'm curious, let's get into them. Which of these kills turned your webcam on?

SPEAKER_02 37:12

So I'm not gonna lie, the biker that got s crashed into the truck, I thought that he might have died. And I mean, clearly he didn't, but damn, that would have been Ruffins. I kind of figured as much when he answered, I was like, is this guy gonna crash? But then I was thinking to myself, no, this is still too early to start introducing crazy ass gore because we haven't even established the the big you know plot here. So what do I expect? But no, that aside, I mean, the actual kill that I was like, whoa, this is yeah is Jenny. I mean, wristlet in that bathtub. Yikes. Not gonna front, the the clip of the guy just like smashing her head really fast also was like that was rapid. It kind of made me laugh a little bit because it was so quick. But I thought maybe that was the kill. I didn't expect that we were going to like actually see it through. You know what I mean? I thought maybe that was that was her finale, that was her kill.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Yeah, looking at that first moment where we have our our man girl who starts to chat with her to see her head slammed and then to see a knife and a blade cutting into her neck. I want to know what the first things you thought of were, but for me, it was all those insane videos you saw during the war in Iraq where you just see decapitations and beheadings from the internet that are happening overseas. We were not meant to see this shit.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

Yeah. I mean, we were not meant to see a lot of shit, but we see all of it now. I mean, you know, everyone's putting everything on the internet, it's gotten worse.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

I just like I really want to dial back, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

Think about how war overall throughout any generation has greatly influenced and shaped the media of our time. We think about Tom Savini, who served in the military as a journalist, as a photographer, and then use that to inform his effects and his practical effects work within the horror genre. Then think about all the shit that you know, we continue to live in unprecedented times, apparently, as a millennials. We got really we really lucked out as a generation. We really just continue to win. But as we saw this and we see the horrors of war play out, not only as they have before, but now with modern technology with social media, yeah, we have more access to this than our ancestors ever had. And the exponential rate at which we have begrown numb to that, it is fucking crazy. You could not tell me in 2013, 2008, 2007, 2001, that one day I'd be like, fuck yeah, there's a little clown in here beheading people and taking chainsaws up, assholes. Like, I never would have thought that. I never would have fucking thought that. But that is where we are. Our the clown is now cathartic because it is it's a fair point for sure.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

I'm just thinking back even to those those early days too, but I even then like the signs were all there. I mean, we had we had like rotten.com, we had faces of death, we had all this shit where we were watching actual deaths happen even back then, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

I mean I wasn't fucking around with that. Maybe y'all were.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

I mean, I experienced some of it for sure.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

So I was gonna say, I feel like all the boys that I knew definitely were traversing those sites. But I mean, I guess that's where the finale actually is saying something that I kind of already knew. What it's I mean, specifically with this whole trope of like an older man watching this, his younger son overseeing like this, I guess, perpetual cycle of violence within men. Is that what they were trying to say specifically with that?

SPEAKER_01 41:14

Which flavor of boys will be boys do you want today? Because in Hellfest, we got the dad who kills and then takes a trophy home to his young daughter. Because some men can love women but also hurt women at the same time. And then in this movie, it's the oh, Paul, what are you watching on the internet?

SPEAKER_02 41:32

Well, yeah. And then also, I mean, one of the killers, I guess, one of the masked people was a pretty he looked like a pretty young boy to me, or a young teen at the very least. So I don't know. I mean, maybe that was also the voice and kind of the bone structure, but I don't know. It's kind of one of those things where I'm like, I'm not surprised that teen boys or like younger boys were kind of like going through the web, and we did have those dark things even then.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

Yeah, there were some other kills in here that were pretty notable. That you know, Sergeant Tisbert hit getting hit in the head with a shovel and then stabbed in the eye with a sledgehammer or a hammer or whatever the hell that was was pretty that was one of the more brutal, you know, kills that we got for sure. There's you like you know, the the dude Max that got suffocated with the plastic, you know, over his head. Like a lot of these kills were pretty were pretty brutal for sure. Being hung and then shot in the head. Like, I mean, there are some pretty intense kills for sure. And I think some of them, when you're watching through the lens of for like what would be a webcam or whatever, I think it just it feels a little bit more intrusive and and also intimate, you know what I mean? Even while watching it through a movie, but very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

It is, but I think that's exactly why the UI is such a star in terms of this movie's production. Sure, we have all the webcam footage, I like it, we dig it, but I think the ability to recreate a screen in that way, it lends itself really well to just again creating immersion.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Yeah, I agree. I think that one of the best things about this movie is easily that use of the computer screen as the entire cinematic language, especially in the first half, right? Like you have the natural mouse movements, the notifications popping up at inconvenient times. You've got like framing through the webcams. I think all of that added to the film in a really big way that I feel like really connected you in the first half of the movie.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

Every time you say the first half of the movie, Sean, I keep thinking you're about to say they had me in the first half, not gonna lie.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

They did. They did have me in the first half. That's not a secret.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

But can we talk since we're talking about the perpetrators of all this violence? Can we talk a little bit about their look? Because it was giving the strangers for a quick moment there.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

Yeah, it was the strangers, but we shopped at Walmart instead of being a rural group of folk who went to The neighborhood hardware store and got a burlap sack.

SPEAKER_02 44:05

They had half of the burlap sack. They had a 50% coupon. They could only get half of the burlap sack because I saw the whole back of that guy's head. Clear as day. I mean, and most of his eyeballs, too. So at this point, what are you really hiding, brother? Well, listen, this is post-recession.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

This is everybody still getting it together. Can't afford housing. Fair enough. You know? You either get a full ski mask from Walmart or you get half a burlap sack and you split it between two people. Balling on a budget.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

I think that's what they did. But here's what I'll say. There was a quick moment there when it was the scene where she just got that compilation video as Damien, and we get like constant clips, and at the very end, we see like a warped face of a man lighting a cigarette, it may seem, or something like that. He's maybe got a lighter, it's like a small flame. It looked very warped. It kind of reminded me of almost like Elephant Man, like David Lynch type stuff. I thought it was really weird. And so I was hoping that maybe we were gonna revisit that again. Like, is that these killers also or killer, right? Like at the time I wasn't even sure what the fuck's going on, but was I gonna see more of that creepy face? Like, were we gonna get to know that a little bit more? No, we just got a cheap sack.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Yeah, sorry. You got the T Mu version of Baghoul.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Okay, but you went back to that moment where she is getting she's going through this footage of Damien and this moment where it looks like he's getting off of work and talking to her, and the file is corrupted, and of course, she has the free trial of some application downloaded. And listen, we all know the free trial life. You just need a little one and done situation, you do a free trial. 30 days, you're good. But the fact that this woman rethought she could enhance her way into seeing something of fucking clarity was it it gets me every time. I think about the things that I do on a regular basis and the camera quality that we all have. If only we really had the enhance, enhance, enhance, restore corrupted media. Oh, come on now. Absolutely fucking ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

Look, let me be very clear because she's a sociology major, and so was I. There is no way, sister, that you suddenly know the skills, nor have the software. More importantly, that that software would have a free trial for you to do something like that. It just does not exist. Most certainly not in 2013.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

Yeah, the quant Quantico has not given that to you. FBI, move over. No, most certainly not.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

Most certainly not.

SPEAKER_00 46:43

Man, I will say though, one of the things that I think was really effective and really led to one of the more effective scenes in the movie is when we see this glimpse of that first masked figure chat that we run across. I think it's a scene that makes the premise kind of click really well. Elizabeth is casually clicking through random webcam chats for her research project. She lands on this user sitting in like this dimly lit room wearing this mask. And at first it feels like standard internet weirdness, but you know, there's like this awkward silence, there's no really there's no clear reaction or anything that's happening, and she notices something unsettling in the background, but the camera doesn't cut, it doesn't zoom. We're just staring at a static webcam frame and just scanning the darkness, essentially. And I think the dread builds slowly, you know, as you as she realizes there may be someone else in the room, you know what I mean? And I think that is kind of what makes it work the stillness, the uncertainty, the fact that nothing is overplayed in that moment. So I don't know that those moments were really effective.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Yeah, I agree with you. There's two moments that I thought were really, really effective in addition to that. And I hate it because I and I don't want this to sound a particular way, but it was like the first real oh shit moment was when obviously she has her boyfriend over, they're getting busy, and then our attention goes to the computer screen where we see that someone that's not her is in saving this video and sending it. And it is how how dangerous it can be for someone to access your technology and do who knows what with it. And then we don't see the price that she pays for that until days later. And of course, when things are distributed without your consent, but it looks like it came from you, and think about the culture surrounding that. Like, let's also look back at Paris Hilton and what happened to her and think about what a young girl she was when that happened, and then she got exploited. We all kind of laughed at it in House of Wax when her character dies off a certain way. It is wild to like to have this the the the wisdom and the understanding of of calling it like it is now, but we didn't have that then.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

Dude, even before that, it was it was Tommy and Pam and Pamela Anderson. That's like the birth of this shit right here.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Yeah. So so think about Paris Hulton, think about Kim Kardashian, yeah, Tommy and Pam. How many moments we have and how many lives are affected by intimate imagery being shared without their consent? And that is is something that still obviously happens today. It's even scarier with like deep fake technology, and just you know, there's a lot of things that are even happening right now in that space, but that moment where it's like, oh shit, like this is something that is actually happening and someone is accessing her technology to send it and distribute it, and it paints a picture that looks like her, right? Imagine that shit happening right now. You wouldn't they wouldn't be relying on it actually happening and recording it, they would just generate a video of it, which is terrible. The other one though, is the moment where she sees on her computer that there's a and realizes that there's a camera in her vent. The camera in the vent fucking got me. That was creepy of shit.

SPEAKER_02 50:14

That was a piece of found footage that we were not anticipating. I'll tell you that much. That was real clever, very, very good. Look, I gotta say, to your point earlier about just like the the reality of that, you know, intimate imagery being shared without your consent, but more so the fact that current present day could just be generated without you even knowing, right? That whole spiral of thoughts. In the scene, what I found so heartbreaking to an extent is that it was the boyfriend that was moving the cam the laptop around. You know what I mean? Which may feel a little weird to use the laptop as a light source to do that. Sure, fine. Maybe that feels a little bit hard to kind of like think through logically, but you know, he's recording it. He's kind of, you know, doing his own little thing. But that was an instance where she had it far away from her bedroom on purpose. You know, she like prepared herself to an extent so that she's not just like out here recording herself sleep like we see a lot of people do right now on Twitch. People are recording themselves sleep 24 hours a day. It's weird stuff now. But you know what I'm trying to say? Like, I guess the argument could be made sometimes if we really want to be very technical about this, is like, why aren't you closing your laptop, girl, when you're not using it? Why are you not, you know? But the truth is she committed to recording the screen 24 hours and, you know, kind of participating, letting the chat roulette go, sure. But she put it away from her private space. And this was someone that took that, kind of like entered it into a private space, and thus you're not gonna think that it's recording, much less that someone would be able to hack into your laptop and record, you know? And that's the part that's also frustrating because she could have taken she did take some kind of level of precaution to an extent, you know.

SPEAKER_01 52:06

Could we have turned it away? Sure. But there was also dialogue about the camera being on and her wanting to turn it off, and he was like, No, leave it on. Oh, don't let me go into that whole people may look at this and be like, oh wow, okay, we see this happen. No, this scene is disturbing for a lot of reasons, and there are a lot of reasons why it is not comfortable right now.

SPEAKER_02 52:29

Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. And as a result of that, I'll share my favorite scenes, and they're quite humorous in nature. Of course, it's gonna be the penis ejaculating on the fence. I gotta say, the rick roll of it all of that penis is just about one of the highlights of the year so far. I was cracking the fuck up. It caught it just randomly showing up in the movie. Great callbacks. It knew it was funny and it worked. When she was reaching out to Damien's friends, and the friend even did it, I was like, this is some crazy shit. This is not the right time. But you have me as an audience member cracking the fuck up.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

Let's also then throw it back to the haunted dildo from Ginger Dead Man to Passion of the Crust. Great day for dildos.

SPEAKER_02 53:17

Great day for dildos. Look at them go. I'm just saying, not dildo-related though, but maybe I could think of a correlation. Was also the random quick clip of the bunny man dancing around. He was having the time of his life in that little suit. And it did remind me we Easter is uh is about, you know, tomorrow, as you know, today we're recording this on the 17th. Tomorrow's Ash Wednesday. We're about to enter a holy season, and I couldn't help but think, is it this like a sign that I need to watch that bunny movie that you guys tell me about?

SPEAKER_00 53:46

I did like the one of the early chats that she hops across with the the kid that fucks with her and does the fake scare in the closet, because that just or even that translates to today in in essence, because there are a lot of things that are floating around on like Instagram, little horror shorts that are popping up, little videos where they're doing these little segments where some creepy shit is happening and it keeps like flashing like they're going down a hallway, they keep turning around and something's getting closer. And so, like that just reminded me of that. But I thought that was a fun little scene.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

I agree that it was fun, and I think it's it's also fun because this is where we really set up Elizabeth as a character, and she is our point of view to this whole story.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

Where I get stuck with her is I initially believe this to be academic interest and maybe some optimism, but she doesn't really keep it for me the whole way through. At some point, I'm like, okay, well, why are you continuing to do this? I think they'll understand. If we put a little pause in, maybe try again in a little while. So I I struggle a little bit. I think that's the other part of this. I don't think she performs her role poorly. I really I think the character itself, I think the script itself just has some gaps where I couldn't be fully invested in really anybody.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

Yeah, well, I think Elizabeth specifically works best when she's reacting, right? I think the curiosity that she has, it feels pretty natural early on. The problem is we don't really learn much about her beyond the project. It's really just through the lens of this project and like all the shit that's just happening after the fact, kind of maybe with her boyfriend or whatever, but I don't know. Yeah, I I agree. I I didn't really get invested into anybody.

SPEAKER_02 55:38

It was a little curious, and funny that you bring up that we don't really know too much about her aside from the bit that we do, like we just have to make a little bit of assumptions here and there, because I found the relationship between her and Damien, and then her and Max too, to be very weird and interesting. There was a moment there where Max was hitting on her a little bit, making statements of like, oh well, you guys, you know, have already been Rocky. And I'm like, wait a minute, holy shit, like, have you been fucking this guy too? Wait a minute, what's going on here? Or rather, is he is my initial thought was that he's preying on her when she's clearly like in duress and kind of like stressed about her boyfriend being gone, you know what I mean? So I I couldn't quite place what the dynamics were because at first glance it just gave like coworker vibes a little bit. So that was interesting 100%.

SPEAKER_01 56:35

And I struggled the first time that I watched this, thinking like, okay, which one of these is her boyfriend? And that's not chemistry that you want to be the case. Like that's you don't want it to be super ambiguous. But what I didn't appreciate then that I do now, I just want to point out like the differences in time. In 2013, I was still in the Navy, and in 2013 specifically, I was dating someone in a long-term relationship who was still on my ship, but I was on shore duty about to get like eventually processed out. I was on the ship for a little while and then 2014 got off, and like it was a whole thing. But I knew what it meant to be in a long-distance relationship. I had been in several at that point where you're on the other side of the world, you have Skype to hold on to your email, and that's it. What I did not appreciate in this movie then, that I do appreciate now, and Damien actually points this out was how disconnected he feels from Elizabeth, despite the fact that they are like 10 miles away tops. And she positions like, oh, you know, with traffic that's far. Get the fuck out of here. I've I've had these moments where I realize I'm like, damn, why are we in a very short drivable distance? But I see you more on FaceTime than I do in real life. That's fucking crazy. That is how dislike connected we can be digitally, but also disconnected physically. And I think technology plays such a really interesting part in that, but it also like I think it changes the way that we are emotionally vulnerable with each other, the way that we connect as people. It's just it's it's wild to think about, like just in time, how these things can hit you differently. You're right, Damien. It couldn't be good for you.

SPEAKER_02 58:22

He also was just a little bit of a prick, I gotta be honest. He just I don't know. The energy was from both of those men was like, girl, you could do better anyways, but that's neither here nor there. I think that for me, I gotta say, the best part of this movie was that it reminded me of this world of Omegle and Chat Roulette. That that was even a thing, and I didn't make that up. I wasn't one to fuck around and find out too much on those things. I think I tried a little bit, but then I got real scared of what was gonna pop up. You know, the anxiety was already starting to heighten at that age. But it's funny how, like, that's even something that someone conceptually thought was a good idea. Like that's something that people thought was gonna be a way to connect and bridge people together.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

What? We were so optimistic about what humanity is like. We really had the brightest eyes, the bushiest tails, the best of intentions. We really made these platforms and thought surely no one's gonna jack off on this to each other.

SPEAKER_03 59:27

And I'm boy, were we wrong.

SPEAKER_02 59:30

Yeah, and I'm trying to figure out why. Like what in history led you to believe otherwise?

SPEAKER_01 59:36

Because who's actually doing this to people in person? Some people do, but the vast majority don't. Yeah, and people underestimated how bold and brave you are in the comfort of your own home where it feels like the strangers on the other side of the internet, and that's a vast expanse that can't be crossed.

SPEAKER_00 59:57

Yeah, for sure. That's why the best part of this movie for me is just the use of the webcam angle. I think it touches with all like the weird stuff that we experience growing up with the internet and all this webcam bullshit. So I think it's nostalgic, but I also think it works really well to give you something a little bit different as far as some horror that you get, some paranoia and dread that it builds, especially early on in the film.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:23

You know, I'd like to say that that's the best part of the movie for me. The actual aging of the technology tends to feel like the worst part, but I'm gonna go for something a little less obvious. I wish this movie fully explored the psychological consequence of its premise. I really wish it did. It jumps a shark there at the end and it creates and paints the scale of just trafficking as a whole, but doesn't handle it well. And I think that is an angle where it could have gone in a very interesting direction and actually said something more consequential about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

For me, just as Elizabeth clicks past webcam users in the den, I will be clicking right past this one because I just have no desire to watch this one again. I'm sorry, folks.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:09

For me, it's more like I don't want to pay for an AMC subscription, streaming subscription right now. I I I I paid four dollars to watch this movie. So if it was on a streaming platform that I already had, like Shutter or something, I'd be down to throw it on. I dare say just had the idea come to my mind right now. I dare say I would dare say to have a screen life marathon where I just dedicate a day to fucking just watching one after the other after the other, like a complete psychopath. I understand that. But the thing about screen life movies also is that they typically run like 75 to 85 minutes. I mean, they know that they're really just trying to keep your attention as much as they can as it is, so they're not trying to do a two-hour or three-hour score saisie film, right? So I feel like I could be done. It's almost like watching a TV show and just letting that run throughout the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

Yeah, you absolutely could do it, except I don't think that this is the most interesting of the bunch to do. This is something that I think is re-watchable only in that context. And I say this as someone who's rewatched it multiple times. Again, it's because that shit has just been on and I stumble upon it and I don't leave it. That's it. Not because I'm emotionally gutted and invested in the story. I do think this experience I've had with it now is the most interesting it's been. But also, I think it's just because I'm thinking about this with so many different layers, and then I guess the context of where we are today and how technology is evolving, etc. But I think there's a lot better out there to watch. So I can't say that this won't be at the top of my list. But hey, for now, there you have it, folks. The Den from 2013, as nominated and selected by our patrons, has earned two hacks and one slash. Now, again, we've had a robust discussion here, but the conversation about this movie and all of its strengths and weaknesses doesn't end here by any means.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:12

That's right. If you want to find out what's on the other side of our webcam, consider supporting the show by visiting patreon.com/slash hackerslash. This is where you can enjoy even more of the show, including bonus content with early access, extended episodes, movie nominations, and live shows.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:30

We'll see you next time, folks, and remember, maybe you should get off the site.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

Don't forget to comment down below.