431: Cannibal Holocaust (1980)

This week we're heading into the jungle to dissect Cannibal Holocaust (1980). We unpack its legacy as a found-footage trailblazer, wrestle with its hypocritical commentary on media exploitation, and explore the ethical dilemmas posed by its production. This episode contains spoilers, beginning at 38:24

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Mentioned in the Episode

Watch the Movie

Cannibal Holocaust (1980)

Main Episode

The movie Roger Ebert walked out of after 25 minutes: "Among the most idiotic films ever made"

'Cannibal Holocaust' Was So Gruesome the Director Was Charged With Murder

10 Horror Movies Accused of Being Real

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Would you still love me if I was a worm squiggling through a corpse in the Amazon? Ah, maybe. In 1980, the world was introduced to an Italian horror film that would eventually become known as one of the most disturbing horror films of all time. The premise of the film was conceived after a conversation the director had with his son about terrorism news coverage, which made him question just how far journalists would go to capture images themselves. The film was seized shortly after its release and was ultimately banned in multiple countries for years. An anthropologist travels into the Amazon rainforest on the rescue mission, searching for a missing documentary group. Instead of bringing back survivors, however, he brings back their footage, which soon becomes the center of everything. At its core, the story is about more than the expanse of the jungle. It's about cameras, control, and the line between documenting reality and manufacturing it. This week we're talking about cannibal holocaust. Greetings and dietations, and welcome to Hacker Slash. If you're joining us again, welcome back. If this is your first time listening, welcome to the party. We are a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

A total joke, a waste of time, or a slash.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Totally killer, pun intended. We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're rating these movies with the perspective we've gained from our varying walks of life and the flavors of fear we fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your friendly neighborhood slasher enthusiast. This week I'm joined by the classic horror connoisseur Sean.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

I'm gonna buy a house and a piece of ass.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

And the paranormal paramour Binx. I don't know. I don't think exceptional is the right word.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

You're tuning in for Cannibal Holocaust, but if you support the show, you'll also get to hear our B-side at the end of this episode where we get into some of our favorite horror palette cleansers.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Oh, we're gonna need a palette cleanser after this, but for now, who's seen this one before?

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Oh, Jesus. This is one that I saw a long, long time ago. I mean, probably we're talking 20 years ago by now, and not a film that I will admit I ever thought I would find myself watching again, but here we are.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Never say never, I guess. I didn't even know that this movie existed until I was at a party and someone asked me if I had seen it because I shared that I was on this podcast. That was the one and only time I had heard it until I looked at our lineup and saw the name, and I was like, what kind of sick joke is this?

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Listen, sometimes we just have to do it for the bit. Sometimes we have to give the people what they're asking for. And I've heard of this film before. I actually have it in a book on my shelf behind me, and it's talking about some of the most essential horror films of all time. But I never had any interest in ever watching this movie. I actually made a friend toward the end of last year who was obsessed with this movie. I want to position to you all that when she was younger, she went to a horror convention, and at this horror convention, they played Cannibal Holocaust, and she became obsessed with it and has watched it every year since.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Every year since. And so I thought, wow, maybe there's more to this than meets the eye.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Well, judging by how it was described, yeah, for sure. Listen, we're gonna get into it, we're gonna dive probably really deep into this movie, and I know there's people that probably want to hear our thoughts on this, but this is just one of those movies that is like if you haven't seen this, for anyone that hasn't seen this, be prepared. This movie definitely has made its mark on the genre. There definitely this movie has set other movies up in the genre for sure. Like, you have to respect the movie for what it is, but it is a very intense film.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

What a way to start this episode. I'm already fired up, and I didn't even think that, you know, I gave it some time because I let the heat simmer a little bit. I mean, yeah, I guess I agree to some points, right? Because now having watched it, I can see how it walked so others could run to an extent. But I think what happened for me was that I was just continuously told that it's very intense, it's gonna be challenging, it's going to be very gory and fucked up, you know? But I felt like up until now I've really challenged myself in terms of my taste for gore to begin with. I mean, terrifier is one of my faves. So I silly me, I'm here thinking, like, well, how bad could it be? You know? I was at the very least hoping that with the mix of all of that though, that it was going to have good purpose and like good messaging and at least be an entertaining or good movie, at least. But then I also got told up until right before I watched the movie that I also probably need to temper my expectations just a little bit. It's not like that good, you know. That was from the perspective of the person who told me, right? Like trying to simmer the hype around it down and be like, all right, Bianco, you've seen some good stuff out there. Like, I don't know about that. But I think it was good for me to have that balance because on the one hand, I was like, oh my God, is this gonna be a movie I'm really gonna like and be like, holy shit, this is crazy, or is it gonna be something I'm gonna hate? I really didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

What a delicate balance it is to walk into the experience of this movie. Because to your point, on the one hand, you have, oh my gosh, this is the worst movie on earth. On the other hand, it's wow, this movie actually has so much happening, and there's a reason why it is as influential as it is. There's a reason why even artists today take inspiration from this film. Very specific categories of inspiration, let's be clear. Like there's a good that came from this movie, but it's it I hate the price that had to be paid for the good that comes from this movie. We'll get into that in the spoiler zone. But one of the things that I found most fascinating here was that the entire sensation of this movie did not feel like entertainment. It felt like a test of endurance. And I'm not squeamish, I'm not someone who I think holds back a lot from horror or gets easily disturbed. But this movie made me so uncomfortable basically the entire time, and not in this fun horror way, not even in a tense thriller way, but in a moral way. And I appreciated that through a specific lens, but this movie really makes you sit inside cruelty. It forces you to watch people be harmed, animals to be killed, entire communities to be dehumanized, and then it asks you to reflect on why you're watching and what you're watching. So this movie poses a lot of questions that I found really, really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Oh, for sure. Definitely. I think watching this movie, you feel like you're watching something that you're not supposed to be watching. That's the general sentiments of like when you start lingering in these moments, you're like, what the fuck is happening? Like, I need to maybe take a shower afterwards, the brutality, the cruelty, and just really just the raw presentation are designed to overwhelm your senses. I'm sure even some of us seasoned horror fans will still feel physically uncomfortable at times watching this, and not from pure blood and guts, but just from the sheer actions that are happening and the events that are taking place in this film. Almost to your point, Chris, in a why am I watching this sort of way? It's that endurance, and but it's the message that it tries to convey, it's the impact that it has, the exploitation, shit that's happening with the media, all of that stuff, which we'll unpack even further. But yes, it's overall just this thing that you feel like you're not supposed to be watching. That's really what you get from this, outside of you know, the fact that we are continuing the trajectory of this year shaping up to be the entire year of unnecessary penis. So we're just getting there. Like, I don't know, we're on a roll here. We're on a roll here.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Really got the balls rolling, huh? January is thick.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

I guess so.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

January and February are thick. I don't know. I'm just saying the balls are deep, but it's not what I wish for uh this podcast, that's for sure. Shockingly, maybe to some of you. I just feel like, yes, I can see its purpose, but I felt the entire time that this was almost to me personally, like I I want to say borderline offensive, but I think I'm just being nice. I found it to be just offensive. I found it to be really offensive. I found it to be definitely challenging, just as I expected, but challenging in the sense that I'm watching this movie, feeling like I shouldn't be watching it. Yes, I agree with you, Sean, 120%. But it was like a feeling of is this like real? You know, is this really happening? Is this kind of brutality like actually happening? This violence? And then, you know, you dig a little deeper, and I couldn't help but look into this movie afterwards. You get so curious, like, what is this movie? How did this even come to be? How was this even allowed? And you uncover a lot of the just blatant fucked up things that happened on the set and how these indigenous people were treated and such. And so that kills everything. It really does. Aside from the fact that I already felt like I was upset and angry, I felt like a lot of the film was like a joke because the acting is so bad personally. I it was like a ton of really negative emotions, and then I wanted to parse through all that and find some good in it because I can respect that these like Mondo films, these shockumentaries, like they they are good subgenre. People love that. I mean, again, I love the gore and whatnot, but and the snuff film of it all, but man, it just felt like something was wrong. Something was definitely wrong watching this.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

For sure. And honestly, that's the biggest surprise that I had. Genuinely, how effective a lot of parts of this movie is, but it's also frustrating because there's a layer of hypocrisy. There is a structure that works, the message is clear, there is a shift from rescue to recovery. You consider that dynamic in storytelling, and you lean into this narrative that really talks about and has a commentary on media sensationalism. But the disappointment here is the film itself commits the exact sin that it's criticizing or commenting on. And the movie, I think, kind of plays like a moral gray area here, and it poses questions in certain characters of how you should be feeling about what you're seeing, how you should interpret what you're seeing. But what sucks for me is like this points a finger at exploitative journalism while exploiting animals and people in its own production. And it it honestly taints everything, just to your point, Pinks. Uh the other thing that I thought was really interesting was considering just uh absorbing this movie from my own perspective as a former journalist, right? We talked in the beginning of the movie how we dissect these movies based on how our own lived experiences shape how we receive it. I know what it feels like to experience life through a camera lens where you're close, right? You're physically right there. There's a buffer, the camera creates distance, and you're trained to observe and to document and to stay functional while something human or horrific is happening in front of you, and that distance can become necessary. But what this movie does is take journalistic integrity out of the equation, and it causes you to mistrust and distrust and actually disprove a lot of what you see. And that's something that I find exceptionally unsettling. It's a reality that we all know exists, and there's a lot of exploitative intention out there, but this idea of people hiding behind storytelling, uh hiding behind a camera, hiding behind the myth of being a brave documentarian, man, it this movie did something for me. And I I freaking hate that because I'm just so conflicted for two very big reasons.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

It makes sense though, because it's natural to feel conflicted while watching this movie, because there is a message, there is an impactful message to be had in this film. Some of the choices that were made and how they went about it, maybe you don't feel great about, and the hypocrisy that you're talking about, Chris, is almost it almost lands their message even harder, to be honest with you, which is a very interesting thing to think about. And I think that one of the things that stands out to me in this film, aside from the brutality of it all, and besides the animal cruelty of it all, is that underneath all of that violence is that complex message about the exploitation by Western sensationalists of indigenous tribes, native cultures, right? And you think it's about the tribe of cannibals, and it turns into something a little bit different, and you find yourself not rooting for who you might think by the end of it all. That was what was surprising watching this film. And of course, the most disappointing thing about the film are the choices that they made with the use of the animals and even people, and despite how powerful or impactful the uses might have been for the story. So, in a nutshell, the surprising thing is that Cannibal Holocaust actually does have something to say. The disappointing thing is how they say it.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Absolutely. You took the words right out of my mouth, and I think that's why I'm so pissed because I just feel like to both of your points, right? Exploring journalistic integrity, especially in these underdeveloped areas, these marginalized communities, these indigenous cultures that we never, ever, ever really get to see at the forefront. That is something that's worth being out there in film and something I'm super curious about. I studied sociology and anthropology for this exact reason because I felt like, you know, again, especially being Hispanic and Latina, I just felt like something that I really wanted to get into and try to uncover and understand more because it's all so complicated and layered. And I'm not saying that I'm expecting this from obviously a shockumentary film. Of course not. But I thought at the very least, could we invest in a little bit better acting? Because that's my problem, is it also felt a little bit like it was a joke. It was all a joke. And that's what was disappointing is that some of the acting was so bad that I'm like, how do you want me to even take some of this seriously? There was a lot of potential to do something very shocking, yes, but to do it really right. And I think I just landed on the other side of the fence where I'm just too upset to look past it. I'm too upset to look past that hypocrisy for sure. And that being said, too, I think it's also just the scariest part about it, also, is that this movie even got made, was even like seen, distributed, sure, banned eventually. The accountability also was, you know, had because I read up on, you know, cases, court cases, I guess, and whatnot, against the directors and some of the crew involved, obviously, with the animal cruelty, with one particular scene. So I feel okay about that, but it it is a little scary to think that on the one hand, a movie like this was made, sure, that's aside, but just scary that this is like a real topic to your point, Chris. Like this kind of journalism is a terrifying thing to think about.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

And that's where I think you have to be so precise with the language that you use. This is not journalism. What we see unfold in this movie is not journalism, it is sensational media masquerading as journalism. It is I'm gonna be the wolf in Little Red Riding Hood dressing up as grandma just to get myself into an opportunity. This movie, for all the horror that we see, for all of the uh absolute abhorrent behavior that we see, I didn't find it scary in the slightest. It's for sure gross, it's for sure disgusting. But this isn't the type of horror that you watch and expect to be jump scared, expect to be honestly, any form of fear that you have over so many different horror movies we've seen since this movie came out. But where this movie uh hits far harder is in uh this disturbing quality. It's ignorance, it's cruelty, it's how easily people can justify violence when they believe they're doing something important, it's how characters can convince themselves they're telling a meaningful story while they're committing atrocities for better footage. It's how easy it is to slip into some really fucked up logic. And so those same justifications get used in real media and the lines get blurred way too often. And the real horror of this movie then is you're sitting here and you're watching this like civilized society behave like monsters while pretending they're professionals, and that is the thing that you should be more scared of, especially when you think about that kind of horror enduring as long as we've had an organized press.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Yeah, for sure. The movie it yeah, it the disturbing was the right word to say there because yeah, it's less about being scary and more about being deeply disturbing. And for a lot of people, I think that can actually be worse. I think the realism of the film gets to you, the ethical lines matter to you, making you feel something. It's horror that feels mean and really gets under your skin and lingers there for a while. So it's a very interesting type of horror that we're getting in this film. That I think, you know, unless you're really a hardcore horror enthusiast, it's probably not your bag.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

That it is not. That it is not, and that's okay. I think that despite my feelings though, original, certainly, I mean quite literally, I do love found footage, I do love mockumentary stuff, pioneer of that, most definitely. I wasn't expecting that component of the film, so that was kind of cool in a way. Wasn't having a good time with everything else, but did really like how it was shot and how it was literally finding this footage from this team. I went into the film blind when it comes to that piece of the plot. So I thought that that was an interesting take, and I can see the value in all of that too.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

For sure. I mean, like it or not, Cannibal Holocaust did pretty much invent, or at the very least, popularize the film within a film horror framework. It was one of the early, if not one of the earliest ones, right? The recovered film as a storytelling engine and using realism as terror rather than some spectacle. You can really see the DNA of this film in future movies to come, like the Blair Witch Project and Wreck and VHS and even paranormal activity. You could see it all in there. There are arguments that you know, maybe certain movies invented the found footage genre, movies like The Legend of Boggy Creek from 1972 or Last House on Dead End Street from 77. But the long and the short of that is there, these are not technically found footage horror films. They are either like pseudo-documentary style films or just gritty realism, but not necessarily found footage as a narrative device. And so when you think of Cannibal Holocaust and what it did for the genre, it really kind of birthed this found footage genre.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

For sure. This is the thing that really brought found footage into mainstream horror, even if its banning and reception meant that it gave Blair Witch the bigger opportunity to really take it off and run. Because the Blair Witch Project is similar methodology, but less problematic.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Not killing live animals on screen in Blair Witch Project, you know? But when you look at even some of the shots that we get in both films, I mean, not no. Pretty similar.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Very similar.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Now, what I appreciate about this one though, is this movie takes the element of found footage and uses it when mixing up a you know another framework to really put you in the same position as an executive deciding whether this is something that should be broadcast. And I think that moment, that choice, that is smart. That forces reflection. That is part of why this movie, as problematic as it is, as disgusting as it is, is scratching such an interesting part of my brain. Because it feels like it was really ahead of its time. And I think another element that makes it ahead of its time is its ending. It you can say what you want about maybe the last di line of dialogue in this movie. It's a little bit on the nose, but the ending for me completely works. It feels like it finally names the real crime of the entire movie and really pointing the finger at exploitation as a whole.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

It makes you realize and really forces you and allows you this final moment to acknowledge who the real monsters are in this movie. It's subversive, and I absolutely love the way it reframes everything that you thought you were getting when this movie first started.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Yeah, for sure. The ending to this movie, it's quiet, it's bleak, it's damning, and that's what makes it hit harder than any of the gore that came before. I feel like the film closes with moral exhaustion. It also gets to a point where it bec it basically pulls the rug out from under you and changes direction with the characters as you're watching the film, and the ending lands on a chilling and understated note. There's really no justice, and there's no real lesson learned on screen. The cycle of exploitation just continues.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

And continues and continues. Yeah, I'm with both of you on that one. I feel like it does hit the mark with wrapping up the messaging. I just wish it wasn't too cliche and cheap with the dialogue. Because that again goes back to what I've been saying. Great bones to an extent, but boy oh boy, that execution. It's a little tough. A little tough on that end. But I think I can see also how this continues to be a little bit of that pioneer on that front, also, because I instantly, when it wrapped up the way that it did, I was thinking of how many other films, like you mentioned, Chris, kind of talk about this idea of who is really the monster, whether it be in this case, you know, exploring this, you know, primitive society, right, versus the modern civilization or other films where it's kind of like maybe a crime murder, who really did what, or what are the motives. We've seen lots of films do this, whether it's in horror or thrillers, etc. So I think that the ending here was God, I can't believe I'm gonna say it, satisfying, mostly because certain things unfold that I'm like, thank God we're finally here. But in terms of messaging, it also does a good job of just like sticking it to the landing and making sure that it gets the message across despite all of its hypocrisy.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

Well, hypocrisy, be damned, I can't wait to see how this shakes into some ratings before we get there. Oh my boy, Sean, how would you describe the gore score?

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Oh man, this is such an interesting gore score to talk about because the gore in this movie is extreme, but not in really that splatter movie way. It's raw, it's mean, it's confrontational, which is why it hits harder than movies with way more blood involved, right? When you think of movies like Terrifier and things like that, this movie can hit way harder than that just because of how raw and confrontational it is. The gore and the violence is very explicit with prolonged shots, little to no cutaways, the violence is shown in full, often lingering longer than feels necessary, making you question, like you said, why you're watching this, right? Like, why are we sitting here watching this unfold before us? It's something that even you mentioned, Chris. And all of this to say, cannibal holocaust earns itself a severe level of gore due to the intensity and those prolonged shots and also the use of the animals.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Can we also just stop to appreciate for a moment that we had the Bone Temple we had 28 years later? So we had people in woods eating other people. We had spinal columns being ripped out of bodies with decapitated heads, and still did not necessarily equate to the same level of gore as this movie from 1980.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

Well, I'll be damned. And what about the animal report? Binks, this is probably your time to time for the whole year.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Oh, for the whole year for sure. Actually, let's just say the history of Hackerslash, because everyone buckle in. This is going to be, God, I freaking hope, the worst animal report in the history of this show. It is so disgraceful and abysmal that I mean, usually I try to make light of these things, like, no, I'm actually really pissed. This is terrible. This is actually terrible. There is actual animal cruelty to eight different animals, one death specifically done because they needed another take, so they beheaded the animal again. So do with that information what you will. Please prepare because it is not a good time. It is not a good time to watch.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

Well, let's go ahead and get into our ratings. Cannibal Holocaust from 1980, the film Long Band. Is it a hack or a slash?

SPEAKER_01 27:26

I'll start us off because I think I really, really try my best not to make it known very early on, but this is one that I don't quite care if it's if it's known very early on. I haven't felt this passionately about hating a film in a good while, probably since the mean one. And I'll go on record and say that I would rather watch the mean one five times back to back than ever see this movie again. I think that it is very upsetting, offensive, like I said, mostly because of its hypocrisy for sure. And I'm so glad that we get to discuss this because if I watched this movie from that friend that told me at the party to watch it, and we didn't have the context of sitting down and unpacking this movie, I don't think I would have really been able to understand a lot of that journalistic perspective. And I was super excited to hear both of your takes on this because on the one hand, Sean, I know that you're like passionate, you've you're like a horror, like gore guru. So I was just interested to see how you would take it. But Chris, especially you, because you are a former journalist. So I just felt like this is something that I don't know much about. So I don't know if my reaction is warranted. Do I have does it have a place at the table because I'm just like upset? You know? There is a lot to say with this movie. I get it. But I just felt the like the execution was making a mockery of the whole thing. And that's what I really struggled with. I'm all for the gore. I'm all for the uncomfy things. I love movies and horror movies that challenge you, that we're gonna have things on screen that are really gonna test you. I'm all for that. I think it's important to get pushed. But this was just a line that I never thought that I would have to cross. And it's gonna sit with me for a while. So I'm going to give this probably the strongest hack that I've given in my time on the show, for sure. Maybe with time it'll simmer, but it's too fresh. It is way too fresh for tonight.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Yeah, it's an interesting film for sure. And I think, you know, one way or another, everyone's gonna have some kind of strong feelings about it. I think Cannibal Holocaust is one of those movies that feels less like entertaining, like an enter, like a movie that's trying to entertain you, and it's just a movie that's really trying to test you. It's really Chris, you said endurance, and that's like the perfect word for that. I think that this movie is shocking, it's brutal, it's deeply uncomfortable, it's but it's also undeniably influential. And this movie, this film, it helped lay the groundwork for the found footage subgenre that we know today, which is what I think makes this movie really important to horror cinema history, as well as the message that it tries to portray. That and it uses these recovered reels and documentary realism in a way that was genuinely ahead of its time. I think decades later you can still feel its DNA in everything from the Blair Witch Project to modern found footage horror. And what I think is surprising about this movie is how complex the message actually is. The shifting perspective, the flipping the protagonist and antagonist roles on their heads. And at its core, this movie is critique of Western sensationalism and media exploitation, exposing how so-called civilian or civilized filmmakers manipulate and brutalize indigenous tribes in the name of shock and profit. But when that idea clicks, the movie is extremely effective. It's almost damning in how it turns the camera back on the audience. And I think that's also where that contradiction hits because the film condemns exploitation while actively participating in it. And there is animal cruelty that's impossible to separate from the viewing experience and makes the movie incredibly difficult to defend or even revisit. And while I can appreciate Cannibal Holocaust for what it is and for what it did for horror and being bold, confrontational, and even leaving that undeniable mark on the genre, it crosses some lines that I don't really want to cross in a movie with relentless cruelty, real harm involved. It's just it's not really my thing. And I think that's the interesting thing about this film. So for me, it is a hack because it's not a jungle that I want to be slashing my way through, but I can I can honestly tell you that I respect the movie for what it is. So I don't think this is the type of movie that you have to like or enjoy to appreciate, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Yeah, it absolutely makes sense, and I struggle with this so much. I fundamentally and vehemently disagree with so much of what happens in this movie. When I think back, I mean at this point, it's been over 400 episodes of this podcast. There have definitely been some movies that do some things that are similar to this that really piss me the fuck off. But I hack this shit to bits. Where I'm struggling with this movie is you take even something like sexual assault. That is not something that I can ever really stomach in a movie. And I have my own personal connections to that and reasons for it. I'm not gonna get into here, but it is something so massively difficult to swallow. And yet this movie felt like it did so with intention. And that is such a difficult thing to really bear. This movie is not about cannibals, although there is something that gets cannibalized, and we'll talk about that in in the spoiler zone. This movie is actually about what happens when storytelling loses empathy. This movie is about cameras being shields, this movie is about professionalism being a mask and pseudo-permission to be your absolute worst self about journalists, about filmmakers crossing lines from witnesses to participants to instigators. And I've lived that distance, right? So because being close to reality while being buffered by equipment and responsibility, it really messes with your brain. And you can get so emotionally detached while focusing on the role that you're executing in that moment. And I think that's what makes this film resonate for me in such a very deeply uncomfortable way. While I've never done anything even close to what this movie reports, I have had my own examples of moments where I was like, this is this is trippy. This is a weird moment to be in. And I'll talk about that more in the spoiler zone. But this movie shows what happens when documenting suffering becomes more important than preventing suffering. And that is the real horror. It's not the jungle, it's not the gore, it's the moment when someone decides that getting the shot is what matters more than human life. And that is something that we still see today. Sean, you mentioned it. It is influential, it does make you think, but it also exposes how thin the line is between observation and exploitation and coming from someone who has done that work for the United States government, no less. That is the part that sticks with me. It's not the cannibalism, but it's the complicity. So I don't know how I'm gonna feel like similar to Binks, you know, it's too fresh, and maybe my feelings will change over time. But for now, I'm leaning on the side of slash. Not because I enjoyed it at all, but because it has impact. Because it makes its point, because it provokes thought, because it also carries deep ethical failures that keep it from being a masterpiece. So I I guess more than anything it's a slash with conditions. This is a slash drisk for sure. And with that, Cannibal Holocaust has earned two packs and one slash drisk. Now you can find this movie a number of places. Good luck on which versions you might find if you find yourself someone who cannot stomach the animal cruelty. I don't blame you. You shouldn't have to watch that. There is an edition floating out there that cuts that out. But either way, check it out or don't. But join us in the second half so we can really dig into these spoilers. We'll see you in a bit.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

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SPEAKER_02 38:23

Welcome back, folks. You're now entering the spoiler zone for Cannibal Holocaust, which has earned two hacks and one slot. Now we have a lot to unpack here. This movie is controversial. It is not without its thought, but Sean, let's go through that sleigh by sleigh.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Wow, you know the body count in this movie is high for sure, but more importantly, it's heavy. This isn't a horror movie where the deaths rack up for fun or for momentum, with really many of these 75 deaths meant to linger, confront, and really implicate. And listen, you mix in the animal deaths that feel like they need to be acknowledged, though I didn't include them in the actual kill count for this sleigh by sleigh. This movie gets very intense with the kills. So I gotta know which one of these kills really felt the most impactful for you because there was quite a few impactful kills.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Oh, that's for sure. I mean listen.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Big fuck around and find out energy.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

Very big, very big. I gotta tell you, I was almost gonna say, Sean, if you tell me what's your favorite kill, I'm gonna scream. Because how do you have an act to say the word favorite in this context is meaningful?

SPEAKER_02 39:43

Oh, I absolutely have a favorite. Is it Alan?

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Of course it's Alan.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Of course it's Alan. That's the only right answer, of course. It's it's any of those. It's any of those crew.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Any of those fucks, that's for sure. But Alan specifically.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

Alan and Jack, equal parts fucking terrible. True. True. I don't know. They were competing for the one and two spot.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Definitely crazy. Any of that crew would be like really the only favorite kills you should have that wouldn't be morally questionable. However, there were some like really intense deaths. I mean, just crazy deaths, right? You get to see like just some really intense stuff. There's somebody literally being filleted open. That's going on. Somebody's literally impaled through their mouth on a stake. That's wild. Like, there's some intense shit going on.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

That impalement, for the government to think that that actually happened and they needed to investigate them because they thought that potentially it was a real thing tells you everything you need to know. That's craziness.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

On the one hand, I can say, damn, that's a crazy kill, crazy shot. On the other, when I know how fucked up that set was, I'm like, I'm so glad you investigated that. Because one could never know. You just gotta be sure.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

Yeah, for sure. One of my favorite like moments, though, that is, I guess, technically part of the slay by sleigh, but it's just really highlighting the gore in the movie, and like that one of you one of the great like horror aspects is when they stumble upon that corpse in the jungle, and the body lifts up and it's just a decomposing body, and you've got like the bugs and the worms crawling through his eyes, and I was like, dang, that's a great shot, right there. That was fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

Would you still love me if I was a worm?

SPEAKER_00 41:36

So good.

SPEAKER_02 41:36

Squiggling through a corpse in the Amazon. Maybe. Maybe.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

And listen, credit to that guy for knowing who that was based on the teeth.

SPEAKER_03 41:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

Okay. Who the fuck knows someone so deeply intimately that they can recognize them by teeth without being a dentist and also not having super distinguishable features. I mean, he was looking all the way in the back. He wasn't just saying, hey, you got you got a whole grill on the front.

SPEAKER_03 42:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

He was just like, hey, that one tooth all the way in the back, I fucking know that tooth anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

I remember that cracked molar.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

That's because they've made out. That's what they don't want you to know. Now Keith. Literally no Keith. For sure. That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

100% though, looking at the stellar practical effects in this film, all it does really though is piss you off because you know they would have been able to just do this for animals.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Because what the whole fuck. Okay? You guys warned me, alright, before watching this moments before, right? Where like you were telling me, buckle in Bianca, it's gonna get real bad. It's gonna get real bad. And I thought, nah, yeah, okay, okay. Like, alright, maybe like a bird or something. Not to say that some animals, you know, are higher up on the rank than others, but unfortunately, bird deaths seem to be like the big thing with the animal report. They're the easiest ones to go, I guess. It's really sad, really, really. So I thought maybe it was something like that.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Probably the easiest to fake, too, a fake bird flying, you know, flying into a window or something.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Absolutely. But like, no, that's not that's not actually what happens at all. That's not even an animal, I think that dies. Out of the eight, a decapitation of a monkey, two monkeys?

SPEAKER_00 43:32

That was brutal. That was definitely tough.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

Nah. The turtle? Get the fuck out of here. You know that it's bad when the director himself was like, shouldn't have done that. No shit, bro. You think?

SPEAKER_00 43:46

On in hindsight, it probably wasn't the best choice.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

Yeah, I need you to know that I watched this movie twice. Oh, Sean watched this movie once in life a long time ago, and then like had to get through it again.

SPEAKER_03 43:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:59

I cannot imagine. Imagine watching this when it came out, much less even just watching it today, because the fact that you hear the animal screams, the monkeys screams, yeah, the squeals, the reaction, the fact that you see the turtle struggling so much, it is horrific. And there is a lot to unpack there because I know there's also the perspective of well, if you eat meat, you condone this. These are different things. This is life, animal life that was lost for the purpose of a film that could have just as easily achieved the same fucking thing without actually killing the animals.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

I'm also not eating turtles, so or monkeys.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Yep, or muskrats.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

Well, yeah, I'm cool with the tarantula. You can chop that sucker in half. I don't really care. I'm I'll put it on the record. You can kill the tarantula.

SPEAKER_02 44:52

I was just gonna point out I also felt horribly for that snake in Friday the 13th.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

That's true. That's true. Good call.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

That is true. But you bring up such a good point, Chris, because if this was an actual documentary, then there is something to argue here. Because while we're at it, we can just talk about how wildly inaccurate this movie is, obviously, to begin with, because the tribes, the indigenous tribes that they're talking about in Colombia and Venezuela that border Brazil, like that's just not correct. But they obviously do, and I think uh I think it's actually the monkey or one of the animals that's considered actually a delicacy for them. So very, very crazy for us, of course, because we don't eat monkeys, you know, but for them it's considered a delicacy. That's their culture, fine. If this was a documentary and it was a little bit more serious on that front, you know, difficult to watch, but it's exploring a culture that is very different from ours. No, this was a movie. This was just a movie. And they had all of the resources to do all the other practical effects, but said, fuck the animals, which is just a choice. A choice. So I could do without. I could do without.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

Can we give some credit to the score though? Incredible contrast, really, to what's on screen. Such a disturbing juxtaposition. And I think what I love most about this is you obviously you have this like serene sounding uh music when you're looking over the expanse of the jungle, but it does add a lot of emotional weight where really if you were just to look at this entire movie without that music, you would just be devolving into pure ugly.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

The score is absolutely that's my favorite part of in terms of the production because at the very least it shifts the tone, like you're saying. The main theme song I think has also just been reused because it's it's this weird, uplifting, like serene song that feels like okay, you know, I I've just encountered something like beautiful, but like conflicted. But did I really just watch a ton of death and mutilation and violence? It's very, very contrasting, but I I really liked the score. That's definitely gonna be something that's gonna stick with me, aside from all the horrendous.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Yeah, for sure. I think the score was really good. I also feel like the the technical strength of the cinematography was also something that I think can't really go unnoticed. I so I gotta give it up for that in the overall realism in this one that handheld camera work, the natural lighting that they use, the rough framing, the imperfect shots, it feels almost accidental, unpolished, and uncontrolled. And I think that is exactly why the found footage portions work so well in this movie. And listen, by even by 1980s standards, when you think of that, this the level of realism was definitely ahead of the curve. And so I just think what they were able to visually achieve in this movie, too, was was really well done.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

You know, it does beg the question though. In the movie filled with horrific stuff, what scene possibly even stands out as a favorite?

SPEAKER_00 48:11

Oh, I mean, yeah, there's there's moments, there's moments for sure.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

Yeah, there's moments, and I really want to just take in a specific moment where it feels like things are starting to click and go in a direction that I actually very deeply appreciate. Which is the second we see the confirmed remains of the crew.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

It is when you have the contrast, so the professor is skeptical. The his guides have said, No, we're being invited to dinner, we're gonna go over there, we're gonna mix and mingle. And he's like, I don't know about that. He ends up then seeing the remains and seeing the picked apart camera and the absolute shock on his face, it is where this story starts to really spin for him. And I absolutely love it because it's it's where this movie stops being an expedition and it becomes more of an indictment.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

So I'm right there with you. I don't know if it was the exact same moment, but yeah, I'm right there with you. And listen, when people talk about the best scenes in this movie, they usually don't mean enjoyable, right? Like they mean the most effective, maybe the most important or even the most revealing. And for me, it was the point where the film shifts into that found footage material, right? Like you're talking about, Chris, and I think that it's arguably the most important scene where the tone changes immediately. You're this is where they really just pull the rug out from under you. You know what I mean? Because then what happens is the camera becomes you becomes more invasive. You feel like you're watching something you're not supposed to see. This is where the movie earns its reputation as the found footage pioneer, and you start to unravel a lot of shit that you know flips the protagonist and the antagonist on its head, and it becomes a different film that you maybe didn't think you were watching. But and that's a very important moment, but it's also the village destruction scene because it's one of the most impactful and unexpected moments of the film, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

Bruh.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

It's chaotic, it's cruel, it's shot with the documentary, this documentary detachment. It feels less like horror and more like recorded atrocity. And this is where the rug gets pulled out from under you for sure, where you're like one of the moments that add to it that what we thought were the protagonists were just not the protagonists, and that these are those moments in the film that really hit the hardest, I feel like.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

I think it's interesting because I know logically that the documentary crew was supposed to be positioned as the protagonist, but from the second this movie fucking started, and I saw how they're talking to each other and the way they're getting ready for this expedition. I thought, these motherfuckers, no, absolutely not. Never once for a moment did I think they were actually gonna be the actual heroes of the fucking story.

SPEAKER_01 51:13

I'm with you. I thought they were absolutely the worst from the moment they opened their mouths. That's for sure. And it's funny because I am with you, Sean. That scene in particular, I think was one of the very few moments where I really believed these characters were capable of doing something so vile, like performance-wise. There's a shot that I think it's weird to say, like striking and and beautiful because it's horrendous, but it's a it's a memorable one, that's for fucking sure. And that's when Mark basically turns around and it's just the village the hut is on fire, and he just with the camera, it's he's smiling. He's la like if he's got the time of his life, you know, going on, and it's very disturbing and fucked up, but extremely effective. I thought it was extremely effective. Now, for me, another scene that I think on paper was really, really good. And I wish that the performances kind of matched that a little bit. It felt a little one-dimensional, but what they're saying, I think, is really great. Is the professor talking to that female executive when they're going back and forth about, you know, listen, people love sensationalism, you know? She says something insane like, Come on, professor, let's be realistic.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

The more you rape their senses, the happier they are. Yep. It's not that exact phrasing, but it's pretty fucking close. And what a disgusting moment. And then also let's think about the conditioning of a the society, b, women in male-dominated careers and industries, and especially becoming an executive, and just again, you are feeding the machine.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

Absolutely. I'm with you. And I just feel like there's a sense of frustration, but something that seems familiar because that sadly tracks in my head, especially for 1980, right? And in these positions of power where to an extent, is she wrong? I mean, look at present day. Present day sensationalism is still what gets the people going, unfortunately and clearly. So I think that that's like a piece of dialogue in a scene that is very terrifying, very fucked up, but very real, and can translate clearly decades later. So that one is gonna be a a bit that'll stick with me for sure.

SPEAKER_02 53:52

Yeah, now I just have in my head her saying that and then cut to Art the Clown, Chainsawing A Man in Half in Terrifier Three. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

Oh my gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:02

Absolutely atrocious. Now, one of the things that I actually love most, especially about that scene and how we explore what's happening in the context of the indigenous tribe, in the context of the documentary crew, and then back with the executives who are reviewing this footage, and you have the professor who is really trying to be a moral counterweight to everything that's happened. Sure, we have the crew, they're not meant to feel like fully realized people because they're symbols, right? They represent colonial arrogance, they represent media entitlement. Yeah, but the professor's a conscious of the film. He is he's the only arc that feels undeniably human and completely flawed. We see where he begins, but then we also see where he ends.

SPEAKER_00 54:56

Yeah, for sure. He's definitely the closest thing this movie has to that moral fucking anchor, but even that, to your point, is just super shaky. He's definitely more thoughtful, more reserved, clearly uncomfortable with what he uncovers. But that said, he's still complicit. He watches the footage, he benefits from it. He ultimately can't or won't stop this machine, you know what I mean? And he represents passive morality in essence, which the film suggests is almost as bad as act of cruelty.

SPEAKER_02 55:29

So yeah, I mean, just think about this, right? He starts out framing the filmmakers as brave Americans who lost their lives to tell a story. He even says, I wonder what crime could have been so bad that they endured these atrocities. That's familiar language, right? That's how we mythologize journalism. But then he watches the footage and then realizes that they're less like reporters and more like predators. It's it's fascinating to see his shift from curiosity to horror.

SPEAKER_03 56:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

Because for you know, being as spotty as you say the acting is, I felt like his performance was particularly strong, even if it isn't super well directed in some moments. His arc mirrors something real, right? Which is that moment that you realize documentation doesn't equal morality 100% of the time.

SPEAKER_00 56:23

Yeah, I think also what's interesting is when we talk about, and this is a touchy subject, but when we talk about the indigenous tribe, right, I think this is where the film gets super complicated as well. I think they are initially depicted or framed as violent or and savage, and it's later revealed that they are actually just reactive and provoked and exploited, and they aren't given really any like real characterization either. They're almost treated as objects instead of people, which is part of why this film is so ethically tangled and it critiques dehumanization while also participating in it, which is just like these are the things where the hypocrisy of it all is it's there, but and it and it's fucked up, but it also lands the message that much harder. So I it's like fuck, like it's bad, but it hits.

SPEAKER_01 57:23

Of course, because when the odato was basically treating these native Colombians like if they were garbage on set, I am not so surprised that this was a film about an indigenous culture misunderstood. So I guess he was really uh really in the film, you know? Really in the film. It's classic, though. It's classic. Most of these films that are trying to tell the stories of marginalized communities or indigenous communities and such, if they're not spearheaded by someone who is a part of that community, they're gonna come out something like this. Funny enough. And again, effective because that is the story, right? That is the theme. I will be a little bit more forgiving on that part if I must.

SPEAKER_02 58:12

I want to take a moment to explore a thought with you all. When you think about the title, Cannibal Holocaust, where did you find the cannibal of it all?

SPEAKER_01 58:21

Listen, when I read Cannibal Holocaust, and this was like a post party from this friend, didn't tell me that it was even about indigenous people. I was like, are we really doing this? Because the word Holocaust and cannibal together in a sentence, especially, I was like, what the fuck are we doing? I was scared, but I had a lot of trust because obviously, but I thought that it was gonna be something very weird. I didn't know that it was even gonna have to be or I didn't know that it was going to be about the Green Inferno or anything of that nature either. So I was like, are people kind of like stuck in a place where they have no choice but to eat each other? I was making up things in my head.

SPEAKER_00 59:11

I mean, yeah, going into it for the first time with a title like Cannibal Holocaust, for me, I'm thinking, okay, this is just gonna be some gory fucking nonsense. That's what I'm going into it as, not something as insane as you know, flipping this whole message on its head and talking about how you know these Western filmmakers are the real cannibals that are invading this indigenous tribe's land. You know what I mean? Like that's that's not what I was going into. I was literally I was literally going into this movie even 20 years ago as a fucking teenager, like, oh, cannibal holocaust? This sounds fucking sick. We're gonna watch a whole bunch of people eating each other, and that's just not really what it was. I don't even think I was prepared for it, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:01

Realistically, how could you be?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:03

I completely get the cannibal at the surface level being the literal feasting on people. Totally get that. What I think is interesting is considering then the professor's last line of dialogue, right? When he's asking or he's really commenting, I wonder who the real cannibals are. I think cannibalism as a whole works really nicely as a metaphor for extraction in this movie, right? So to cannibalize by definition means you essentially getting aside from like the literal cannibalism of eating within your species, it means to take pieces of something else and repurpose it for another m mechanism, right? So you take parts out of one car to put it into another, so to speak. But uh in this movie, the what the documentary crew is doing is mining people for images, mining people for reactions, for fear, for violence, and they provoke situations, they stage moments. We talked about that moment where the camera turns and the hut is on fire, and they're just enjoying the moment with so much glee. They burn villages, they assault people, and then they capture the aftermath and sell it as authenticity. So instead of framing this entire story from a place of curiosity, they take their entire culture and make it content. And so it's fascinating for me to think about what are the parts of someone's identity that you're robbing to feed the mechanism, right? To feed the system of capitalism and sensationalism. And I don't know. I'm I'm just thinking about this. And it's like you take this tribe and everything that they do for survival on a regular basis, they this documentary crew arrives, they come with cameras, they leave with stories, and you're really just profiting, you're sending this out to viewers who are cozy in their living rooms, thousands of miles away, detached from reality. It's just a wild fucky thing to consider.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:09

But in truth, that might actually be the best part of this movie, or at least something that I didn't think I would consider the best part of this movie going into this episode, and definitely thinking of it now in this conversation, which is the whole point of our show. So thank you both for that. I think this is a movie that I I struggle with recommending, but if you were to watch it, I really hope that you watch it with others so that you can have dialogue about it, because that's the best part is unpacking all of these things and how divisive it is, how hypocritical, but then also how poignant it is in terms of journalism and how well it translates to today, even. So I'll give it its flowers for that because it does make for good debate. That is for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:05

Yeah, for sure. I mean, for me, really the best part of this movie is really just the impact that it had on the genre.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:13

Wow. Look at these great compliments you're giving this movie. Don't worry, I'll double down, triple down again. Worst part of this movie is killing animals on screen. How fucking dare you? There's a lot of things in this movie that I can look the other way on. None of it is how it's made, and none of it is about these animals. I'm even thinking about the actress who played Faye who had objections to showing her breasts during a sex scene. And so not only did that become something that had to happen, but then she was ridiculed and abused, not necessarily physically, but like emotionally and mentally, on set.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:54

Because not only is Alan Yates the best kill, but the actor is also scum. Because did you read about how he basically made her feel like garbage and I mean humiliated her because she didn't want to have sex with him to prep for their sex scene? What? I can't, I can't.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:19

It's too much. This movie is wildly fucking problematic, and I'm I'm confident the more I learn about it, the more it's gonna piss me off. I'm giving this a slash to respect what it it has done for the genre, but none of that justifies or excuses what this movie was like behind the scenes, and so I feel as though I've really done my time. I've watched this movie now twice in less than 30 days, and so I plan on never watching this again. Not because this movie failed completely, but because I feel like I have absorbed its lesson, I respect its place, and I don't need another pass at this.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:01

I am I am so right there with you. I'm gonna say something so crazy, and I in the moment really do feel it. I would rather watch Insidious again than watch this. You cannot pay me. I will not do it. Now, all the respect. I love found footage, love mockumentary, thank you for spearheading it. I don't even want to hear the word cannibal holocaust in the next 30 days. Just give me a break. I mean, like, let me have a a lot of a palette cleansers before conversing about this again, because it's a tough one.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:38

Yeah, it is a tough one, and you know, I think we're all aligned, right? Like it's a movie that I think everyone, you know, if you if you're really a hardcore horror fan and you're really into cinema, it's probably something you should at least visit one time. And I think while I can appreciate its impact on the genre, the horror genre, found footage, all of that stuff, it's just Just not a movie that I enjoy watching, and I highly doubt that I too will ever watch this movie again. So, yeah, I hear you.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:08

Well, folks, it sounds like that's all she wrote for Cannibal Holocaust from 1980, which has earned two hacks and one slash. Now we've certainly had a robust discussion here, but the conversation doesn't end here by any means.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:21

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