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What We've Learned So Far
Women, wizened by experience, presence, and attention, gather to discuss topics of depth in a world deeply in need of softer, fiercer, clearer perspectives.
What We've Learned So Far
Identity
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What We've Learned So Far gathers a group of wise women around life's big questions and everyday experiences. We explore what we're learning about life, relationships, purpose, community, and what it means to be human in a rapidly changing world.
Listen, subscribe, share, and join the conversation. We'd love to hear what YOU’VE learned so far.
In this episode our wise women explore Identity. And these are some of the questions we've posed to ourselves:
- What are identities and do we need them?
- Where do they come from and what purpose do they serve?
- How do others' identities frame how we perceive or interact with them?
- Is it important to consciously engage with our identities?
- Who are we without them?
Our panel of wise women:
- Kay Eck (This Episode’s Moderator): kayeck.com
- Lisa Espinosa: lisaespinosa7@gmail.com lisaespinosa.net @lisaespinosa_ (IG)
- Thea Sullivan: theasullivan.com thea@theasullivan.com
- Sarah Starnes: : @sarahnatureyoga (IG) Sarah Nature Yoga (FB) @108yogini (YT)
- Jenny Glick: jennyglick.com
- Lesa Spravka: lspravka@yahoo.com
- Ceres Ruzich
Video Production by Cyber Citrus Creative: https://www.instagram.com/cybercitruscreative/
Music and Performance by Keith Hill: https://www.instagram.com/khillcorp/
Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. This is what we've learned so far. Hi everybody, my name is Kay Eck, and I am your host for today's podcast. The What We excuse me. I knew I was gonna do that. I like set myself up for that. Okay. My name is Kay Eck. Welcome back to the What We've Learned So Far podcast. I have a fabulous panel here with me today, which you can see or possibly soon to hear. And we're going to be discussing the topic of identity. And before we hit the record button, we were talking about what an incredibly big and deep topic this is. So it should be a good conversation. So to begin with, I would love to ask each of you in turn to introduce yourselves, tell us where you're from, and maybe a little bit about what you see as your current identity. Like one or two words. Okay. Lisa Spravka, how about you?
SPEAKER_06Hello. My name is Lisa Spravka. And I wrote this down because I'm an almost retired psychotherapist. That's one of my identities.
SPEAKER_05Thank you. Thank you so much. Lisa Espinosa.
SPEAKER_00Hello, I'm Lisa, and I was born in Chicago, born and raised there, but I've been now in Mexico, my ancestral home for almost three years this month. So that is has been such a gift. And one of my identities. I guess the one I'm being called to share, yes, is I'm a spiritual career coach. I support helpers. I help them to create more joy with more ease, to create more impact. And I'm just happy to connect here with all of you wise beautiful women. So thank you, Kay, for inviting me. Thank you, Lisa. Jenny.
SPEAKER_01Hello, I'm Jenny Glick. I currently live in Tubac, Arizona, which is near the border of Mexico and Arizona. And my current identity, I feel like identity is like this lazy Susan. Do we still use that word? I don't know. You know, like it spins around, but right now I identify as a therapist, sex therapist of 20,000 hours of working with people. And I really journey with women through the mystery school of marriage, um, often in midlife. So that's the identity that feels um that really rises to the top for me. And part of that identity is seeing the world as so many rich opportunities for initiation, ceremony, ritual, and and spiritual expression.
SPEAKER_05Beautiful. Thank you, Thea.
SPEAKER_03Okay, hi. Yeah, I'm Thea Sullivan. I live in Ohio, California. I'm originally from the East Coast, from a little state called Connecticut. Anyway, um my identity. Wow, I'm in shift, I'm shifting right now. So I was a mom of a high needs child for a lot of years. I was a teacher and I'm still a teacher, but now I'm shifting back into a an identity of, yeah, um, I guess I'd say spiritual advisor, uh, intuitive energy healer. So I don't know. It's all in a soup somehow. I guess we'll get into it. Yeah, let's get into it. I love this topic.
SPEAKER_05Me too, me too. Cerise.
SPEAKER_02Hi, I'm Cerise. I am in uh Bergen County, New Jersey. Um, and I have lots of identities. I um identify myself as a uh healing facilitator, um, an entrepreneur, um, a co-creator of a nonprofit, um, a mother, a wife, uh, a daughter, a sister, uh, a friend. So I have lots and lots of different identities and even more than that. But again, we'll talk about it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Sarah?
SPEAKER_07Hi, I'm Sarah Starnes, and I live in Randall, Washington, but I'm from Chicago originally. I uh I identify as a whole plethora of things, but I'd say my biggest ones right now are mother to my six-year-old. Um I I dance between the realms of being alive and being dead, so maybe Death Doolo would be a good label for an identity of mine. I'm there for a lot of people and animals as they die. So that's um that's a role that I take on. And um I'm kind of like an entertainer musician type right now, jest jester. Playing around in town busking such.
SPEAKER_05Beautiful. Thank you, Sarah. Stay on with me because I want to ask, I'm gonna begin with you, but I, you know, we it's very clear that you know, we we can sort of identify with these identities in terms of where we live, what we do, the roles we play. And so I'm really interested in in getting into how, you know, if all of these identities are really authentic or accurate or needed or necessary. So, Sarah, what are we talking about when we are talking about identity? What does this word mean?
SPEAKER_07So I think that it's really common for human beings to grasp hold of identities as a um sort of like a costume to wear in in our lives for a period of time. And that could be something that we cling to very tightly and don't understand life without, or it can be something that we sort of um enjoy wearing, but can also very easily change our clothes to a new outfit and try on something else. Um I have, you know, been identified as things without my consent or focus in my life. Like as a child, I was a blonde, blue-eyed, beautiful child, and so you know, I was sort of like looked at in a lot of ways that I didn't even understand at all, you know, from that standpoint as a you know young being on this earth, but grew into knowing, oh, this means I'm more vulnerable to attack. This means, you know, people are gonna compliment me all the time in ways that I don't necessarily need to hear, you know, just like these interesting experiences that we have because of identities that are a part of us no matter what. Um, but I think it's really interesting to assess and evaluate what identities we've embodied in our lifetime, you know, from childhood to adulthood, and and really look at the value in those and also how balanced and grounded we are in our own divine self, where even if all of that fell away, would we be okay?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. That's such an interesting um the way that you put that really made me think about what the question of whether we actually come in with an identity or, you know, because I don't really think that a child has a sense of themselves as either a girl or a boy or a baby or you know, a crier or or whatever. And um so I'm wondering if if this do you think that uh this identity is completely an earthbound phenomenon for for each of us?
SPEAKER_07I feel like my belief around soul contracts and you know spiritual embod or physical embodiment as a spiritual being, I feel like there's no way I could possibly know how deep that goes or you know what's involved and and where it comes from. I could I couldn't I couldn't guess, but I or I guess I could guess, but I couldn't know.
SPEAKER_05And I um I would guess that the soul has certain things to do here, and those identities that show up on this earth plane could be because of whatever reasons we are embodied here in this so almost like assignments, like you have assignments that you come in with. That that's really interesting.
SPEAKER_07It seems possible to me, but like I said, I don't know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Um Lisa Spravka, can you tell me what your definition is for identity, how you think about it?
SPEAKER_06Um I I feel like that we do we come in and we real like if we're coming from spirit, we for the first time realize we're separate. And um and I've I've heard that that babies don't really know they're separate from their mother until they grow up a little. Um, and so it's a process of sensing who we are and seeing that there's an other over there and that and that we're over here.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I I agree I agree. I was thinking of identity as a way of understanding yourself, uh, but that that begs the question like, aren't you already something when you come in? And you know, there's kind of this um it's a it's a puzzle to me. I'm so glad that we're here to tease it out. Uh Lisa Espinoza, how about you? What is your definition of identity?
SPEAKER_00Um, well, I love what has been said already. And Kay, you always ask us these questions that are like not really answerable. I love that Sarah said, like, I don't know. And I was like, wait, we're allowed to say this because I'm like um and I guess to add, I would add as we get older, yes, and these identities get placed on us, these roles, or I think of it often as roles, like kind of like we're acting in a movie, like this is like a script that is given to us, or that we choose maybe consciously or unconsciously. And that script includes our thoughts, our beliefs, which beliefs are just thoughts, right? That we think over and over, our personality traits. And I do think the journey of being human, what I have found for me is becoming very conscious of what scripts we were given that we're not even aware of, and then deciding, do I like this script? Like, is this serving my purpose? Is this serving my mission? Is this all along understanding we're way more than any script, right? It's like holding both. I feel like I'm really in that dance of the paradox of spirituality. It's like as soon as we try to define this, then we also have to remember, but we're way more than an identity. But that's that's what's helped me understand it and like also support my clients as I support them in shifting identities. I think of it as almost like scripts and then kind of being like, oh, I don't like this script anymore. It doesn't serve me. So that's what comes to mind.
SPEAKER_05I I love that. Uh, are they do you feel that these identities are essential to who you are or how you operate in the world?
SPEAKER_00I think if I think of Earth as a school, which sometimes is helpful, I do think, kind of like you said before about assignments, that we have like a divine curriculum, and there's these scripts that we're given given to stay stuck with necessarily. Like I said earlier, we we choose them, but I do think it is that dance of okay, what is the identity I want to embody? And also let me not get attached to it, because as soon as I get comfortable with it, I realize I'm so much more than that identity. So I feel like that that's as close as I can express it right now in words, and something that feels so beyond words. So that's what I would answer.
SPEAKER_05This this topic feels so so very, very fluid to me that it's really hard to kind of grasp onto and get a hold of. So I I love what you shared. Thank you. I'm gonna ask you, Jenny, um, because you have so much experience with working with people um in terms of, you know, as a therapist, and you surely must see people who struggle with identities per possibly that they receive as a gift as children. So can you speak to that um experience of how we deal with the the um identities that we've been given, not necessarily chosen?
SPEAKER_01Funny you should ask that question. I was just um talking with uh a couple earlier today, and I like to work a lot with archetypes, which sort of dovetails with identity. I feel like we could talk about ego, capital S self, identity, and archetypes. If we want to make it even more, you know, um interesting. And I like to talk about archetypes because it depersonalizes identities. And so in a in a diad in a couple, if we have a person who is amplifying the archetype of the warrior, right? Getting defensive, um pushing away, going up into their head and picking a fight, right? I can uh invite them to notice, wow, the archetype is really in the room with your wife in this scenario. And then as we double-click on that, he shares, you know, not surprisingly, oh yeah, when I was a kid, it wasn't safe. And so I was conditioned, the warrior was really conditioned to come forward. And so since he's learned to put on that armor and walk, just step into the, you know, the breakfast table with that kind of helmet and armor on, right, it sets a tone and it has become, however, we want to talk about archetype, has become identity, right? This is who I am. And then that's how she knows him to be. So she is responding to that energetically, emotionally, right, even before the words come out. So I think that sometimes um it, I like the therapeutic or um, you know, the process of sort of self-help, self-discovery to be fun. And so when we play in the realm of archetypes with like the warrior or Sarah, you talked about the jester, right? The thing about the jesters, the jester archetypally has more wisdom in the court than most of the other players because the jester can say things to the king and the queen that other people can't, right? It's like the modern day stand-up comedian, right? And so there's an identity that comes with that that's like this is who I am, but because of the fluid nature of it, when we think about archetypes, and you can buy books on archetypes and archetype oracle deck, it's a really great way to play into one archetype, the king and the queen, those aren't good and bad because they're light aspects and shadow aspects. And so I think it's a fun way to notice most of us have 10 or 12 archetypes that come to the surface and can make up our identity. And when we can sort of see that or explore that, um, we can weave it back if we care to to see where those started as children, where we we learned how to be um, you know, in the archetypes, it's known as the prostitute, right? So I learned to use my looks or my sexuality in order to manipulate or get what I want. That's from a classic archetype sort of um perspective, which is not a bad thing, it's it's a functional thing, right? And so there's there's a lot of ways that we can understand ourselves, I think, if we lean into archetypes as it comes to identity without pathologizing ourselves. Like the warrior's not bad. I want a warrior if somebody's at the door, I want a warrior to handle that, right? If I'm in danger. And so, yes, we want that. And the a good warrior also needs to know when usually doesn't use the sword and certainly not, you know, over breakfast with a partner, right? And that can be a little bit easier to hear.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So it sounds like archetypes are more changeable, like there's more choice involved.
SPEAKER_01Um, I'm wondering if there is a foundational identity that precedes any kind of, you know, architects or archetypes that we may choose to so I would say, I mean, if to make it even bigger, I think part of it is that we're here to be an expression of a capital S self, like consciousness. If consciousness is a massive ocean, each of us is this little drop, and we're here to express a little blip of consciousness through this capital S self, you know, that we have, like this core of who we are. And then we have ego that comes in that says, no, don't be an artist, or don't, you know, you know, hook up with the person or marry the person you want to do, choose the person that your parents said you should, whatever that might be. So our ego and that conscious, that that unconscious expression that wants to come up, right, are often not at odds, but we're often, that's why it is that I feel like we don't know, like, I don't know who I am, or I'm not listening to who I am, because we're we're we're not sure as humans, like what's unhealthy ego and what's actually myself. But I think underneath that is where we have like this essence of K, right? And then K can express through lots of different archetypes, light and shadow, depending on the day or what's happening in your life. So I'll hand the mic over. I could go on and on about this.
SPEAKER_05I I love that. I I love to hear you talk, so no problem. But what you're what you're making me think is that we each can we each come in with one identity and it's it's called unique. And how amazing would it be if we had nothing, no other identities other than completely unique, and we got to like discover these things about one another. I I think that would be because I'm I'm actually on a trajectory to strip back all of my identities to see what really is foundational. So I think I should get like a t-shirt that just says unique. Um, I want to ask, I want to pull Thea into the conversation here. And I want to ask you, Thea, if identities are essential, and if and if they are, in what ways?
SPEAKER_03Okay, well, I was really hoping you were gonna ask, call on me next because I I was just kind of jumping up and down. Because I want to say something about the prior thread, and and then if you can remind me of that question again. Yes, please do. Okay, because um I thought a lot about this um because in my work as an intuitive and before that as a creative writing teacher, something that was always in my work just naturally was reflecting back to people what I and others in a group, let's say, perceive as their essence. And so it's it's a feature of my work. You've been a client of mine, Kay. I have so one of my ways of working is um receiving sort of higher guidance for a client. And um, oftentimes, you know, people will they they want to know, like, what should I do about this or that? And it's not how I work, how it how it ends up coming through is actually more. Like I would say, divine mirroring, if that makes sense. And so what I will often feel and and get for a client is like a word that is this key word about them. Like I can think of one particular client, and the word was justice, like the sword of justice. That was like, and she it turns out, you know, she's someone who's really suffered deeply with what's going on in the world and and and not knowing what to do about it. But it's because she came in with a, I would say, I don't even know if identity is the right word, but an orientation toward justice and a need for justice. And and with other clients, it'll be like the word is beauty or the word is joy or the word is compassion. And and I think that's kind of how it works, if I can be so bold, is to say that there's some nugget, some divine virtue, you could even say, that someone comes in as kind of their uh flavor. And um and then we struggle with how to how to be that in the world, right? And all the overlays that get put on top of that. But I still think it's comes there, there's yeah, I think we come with something we want to bring to the world, and it has a unique feeling and but it doesn't neatly fit into the categories that we assign to ourselves or figure out, if that makes some sense. Like it, like I I'm struggling with, you know, shifting identities now, and one of my sort of overlay identities is like the achiever, like somebody who'll go out and do a lot of things and get a lot of positive whatever feedback for that. And that's not where I'm at right now. So it's painful not to be in that role, right? And get all the goodies that come with the gold stars or whatever. But ultimately, it comes from the drive underneath it, I think is to be seen. And I think what I really want to be seen for, I'm getting personal here, but is is is having a loving heart, you know, and um, but that's vulnerable. Yeah. Showing up as justice. What do you do with that as a human being? Like that's very complex, complicated. So, anyway, I think that I don't even know what I'm saying, but I think that that there is a flavor that we all have when we're in what we call our our higher self. You know, I don't think our higher selves are generic in any way, even though I think they share, you know, a ton of common virtues.
SPEAKER_05Wow, that is so profound, and I love that so much. And now I need to ask you, so your your would you say that your flavor is loving heart?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like compassionate heart or sacred heart. I really identify with the sacred heart, like that as an image. I think it's it's feeling like I want to. I mean, we all want to love and be loved, but it's it's like a like a little extra, like a little extra. I remember saying to a therapist many years ago when I'm healing from codependence and all the overgiving and over, you know, identifying with people who are struggling. I said to her, kind of distressed, what do I do with my compassion? Like I have extra. I don't know what to do with it. And that's why I'm in a you know, healing and teaching session. Cause I have extra. And I mean, we all many of us do. I'm not I'm not trying to be special, but it's like uh, you know, yeah, what comes out of us that we want to give. And I think that's part of it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. And I I think that there's there's we like you said, we don't always know what to do with with the the primary identity if we have one that to come in. And sometimes we reject it, we resist it, we fight it, we circumvent it, we you know, kind of try not to do it because it's too hard or or whatever.
SPEAKER_03Hard or vulnerable or um yeah, it doesn't fit neatly in the family or society or structure that we came into. What you're doing of stripping away identities and saying what's what's left, I think that's that's a really interesting place to be. And to to connect to Sarah talking about you know, death and being with people who are dying, you know, that's probably the ultimate like stripping of who are we anyway. I I I'll I'll close with this, and I don't think I answered your question at all, but I uh I um there was a teacher, a spiritual teacher, who once said, um, and she was talking about the chakras and you know the energy system, and she said, if you think of it like a tree, ourselves like a tree, and the trunk of the tree is our energy centers, right? And our energy system and how we're connected to the earth and to the cosmos, right? And to whatever hired intelligence we're connected to. That's the trunk, and that's who we are. All this other stuff, your identity in terms of your job or your roles or whatever, those are like the limbs of the tree. And ideally, she said you should be able to have those cut, and you're still that's who you still are.
SPEAKER_05Cerise, have you ever gotten an identity for externally, you know, been assigned one that you did not care for?
SPEAKER_02Oh, absolutely. Uh well, let's start with being short. I'm probably, you know, five three. And I, you know, I I have this memory of, you know, being in high school and these two tall guys like like squatted down to my to my height and said, Oh, this is what it looks like from Ceresa's perspective. And I was like, wow, I didn't realize I was that short. And so then I felt this identity of of being, I didn't realize, I didn't think of myself as short, but it was, you know, society put this on me that I hadn't really noticed. And, you know, I and so then what I did was I started wearing high heels. And then there were like years because of that, because I didn't, I didn't want that identity of being short. Because for some reason, there's a lot of things that go with being short. And um, you know, like I I even have friends and they talk about relationships and you know, and they're looking for people and they're like, oh, I'm not gonna date him, he's too short. And I'm just like at this, like, and I'm at the point now, right? Now I'm wearing flats and um and I'm thinking, if he's a good person, you know, why not go out with him and meet him and see? You know, you never know. You might, you know, find that he has a compassionate heart, and you might find that he's a good person. I don't know. So um, but I think for like my personal evolution with having things like that happen was um realizing that I strayed away from who I truly was, my authentic self, because of assigned identities from others. And so I've been on this journey to get back to who I truly am and you know, stripping that back and and liking and loving myself for being that true authentic self.
SPEAKER_05So you're you're pointing to something interesting, like kind of we've been talking about here is that there are some identities that we generate for ourselves, and there are some identities that are um generated for us. And I'm wondering if, you know, how much control do we really have over that? I mean, you can look at it, you know, from a child's perspective, that you don't have much control over it, or even as a mother, how do you make sure that you're not ident enforcing identities that your children don't resonate with, as Sarah pointed out? Yeah, that's a great question.
SPEAKER_02You try and sometimes you're successful and sometimes you're not. And I don't think you always have the control. I mean, I remember I have three kids and I remember and and twins, and I wanted to be, you know, organized as a mom. There's a point in time that, you know, you let go of a lot of, you know, other people's, you know, identities that they place on you. So so I think it's it's getting to that point where I think is where it's um, you know, I don't want to say more it's healthy, but I think for for me, I'm personally striving to get to that point where I don't care what people's, you know, identities, identities, identities they place on me. You know, I care about, you know, how I feel about myself. I think so it's that evolution that I'm trying to get to.
SPEAKER_05Thank you so much. Um, Sarah, I'm gonna go to you because I'm really interested. You have a young daughter, and I know that you are are and strive strive to be a conscious parent. So how do you help your daughter become who she's meant to become without placing identities on her and limit and limiting those kinds of limitations? How does that work?
SPEAKER_07Well, I feel like just supporting her as the wild being that she is without labeling her in any way, and then just living my life as healthy as I can, and encouraging my partner to do the same, and watching her witness us and how we are, and she gets inspired by certain things, and she you know, doesn't care about other things, and she um is very, very in a powerful way just becoming herself. Like she's she's a very fierce being who has always been known as the strong-willed child by a family member because she just does what she wants to do and and says it like it is, and she's brave, and she's just like doesn't seem to have anything holding her back, like she's just here, and so it's easy for me with a child like that, I feel, to just let her be. So I don't think I have to do much, but just be the best person I can be and um and watch her unfold. And as far as identity goes, like I've always felt really comfortable being myself, however, my soul feels like being. I've never really cared about what other people think about me or what they say about me. It's kind of just been a comfortable place that I've been in my whole life. And it's probably because one reason because I was homeschooled and I didn't have clicks and like brand names to try to wear to be cool, or you know, I didn't like experience these things that so many kids go through in the system. And I think that played a part in shaping that, and I feel like as I'm wild schooling my child my child, she's got that same opportunity to just be herself, and she doesn't have to try to be like anybody else.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. When I think yeah, when I think about her, you know, I I don't know her personally, but I have like a you know, an image of her, and it seems like it would be so incredibly unnatural for her to ask you who she was, or to ask anybody who she was. And I'm wondering, is that unnatural to all of us to ask someone else? Yeah, to to not just to ask, but to to have a reflection become who you are.
SPEAKER_07Well, look at how like magazine culture shaped women, like just the way that you know women looked through magazines and saw what they thought they should look like and then went and did what they could to look like that thing. And it's just, I mean, I think we're highly vulnerable to um the energy around us affecting us, whether we're conscious of it or not. And um I like the phrase, you are the company you keep, so keep great company.
SPEAKER_05Okay, Lisa Spravka, can you tell me um your sense of how identities serve us and how they do not?
SPEAKER_06I think I can answer that with what I wanted to say. Um I feel I've I feel like thinking about this that identity is foundational, that we can't be without it. We can't be without possibly having several things as we're different people to to do to different people. Um, but I thought of a great analogy, which is air, because I was I was going like to to be labeled something we don't feel like we are can be very painful, and it can also be really painful to not be anything, to not matter, to not have an identity, and it can also be so affirming to to identify with something. Like I've I feel like I come from a lot of pain of not being seen and not really not being mirrored and knowing who I am. And that's why I really loved astrology. I'm like, oh yeah, that feels right. That feels right, that's who I am. Um so, and then the the way why air is a good analogy is is you can't be without it. Sometimes it's bad quality air, sometimes it's great quality air, but you can't be without it.
SPEAKER_05And what you were speaking of earlier really made me think of um how you know, we've as Thea was pointing out, you know, we we've we're here, we've come for some reason. Most of us believe that there is purpose, and so we must be here for a purpose, and then our role or our our assignment is to figure it out. This is just like such an incredible mystery. And um, yeah, so I I love that that image because as I said, like as I reject some of these roles, and some of them are really hard to reject, like motherhood. Um uh yeah, now you know you've made me see it a slightly different way that maybe maybe I should be adding on understanding of the identities rather than just rejecting them. But we'll see what Lisa Espinoza has to say about that. So um Lisa, can can you talk a little bit about how someone else's identity um, you know, how that impacts how you perceive them?
SPEAKER_00I remember reading this question and really being like, I hope she doesn't ask me. But let me see. I think as you ask that now after all of this rich discussion, I do think at this point in my life, and this wouldn't have been true years earlier, I do feel like I intentionally want to connect with people beyond any identity I would place on them, but even any identity that I might notice they're attached to, right? And it's almost like creating the space for, and I don't mean this as a judgment, like I'm assuming everybody's pretending at all, but just like I think this happens more in, you know, I'm in a new city, this is our third year, but you know, last year we were dealing with a lot of things, so meeting more people. So I'm in a lot of situations where like meeting new people, and and so in more kind of um informal situations, noticing the identity people present with and just really always, I mean, small talk has never been interesting to me. It's never it for a long time, I just felt like I'm just not good at small talk, and I would judge that about myself, not understanding that. I just like really deep conversation. Like I like, so I think I intentionally now really just by my presence, not that I say anything, intend to connect at a deeper level than whatever identities people might be might be kind of the default identity. So that's how I would answer that now. Um and I do think similar to what Sarah was saying about raising her child, like it's more just me focusing on me more and more being that true essence of who I am. Like I feel like that as I show up that way, then other people are either repelled by me, like they might not even know why. They're just kind of like uncomfortable, or and then I also find that other people are just kind of magnetized to me. And they might not know why, but I feel that it's this vibration or this frequency of curiosity and acceptance and wanting to go deeper. So, like that's that's how I feel. I don't know if that really answers your question, but that's how I feel it's helping me when I think about identities, navigate the world and connect with others and call to me my soul family, like as I as I try to develop that here. So, yeah, that's what comes to mind in this moment.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. It's making me think about um, you know, this idea that I've had that we may have an identity, but we don't know what that looks like in others from moment to moment. You know, somebody is showing up as a completely different person. So how do I get to know that person in this moment, you know? And um, I've also been recently I have a lot of conversations because I have two podcasts. So um, you know, I I I've noticed it can be very difficult to get to know someone without asking them how they define themselves. Usually when you ask a person a question of, you know, like basically trying to find out who they are, they'll tell you where they live or um where they were born and what their job is and who they're married to and how many children they have. And that doesn't really get to the meat of who they are. So, how do you get to that with someone new or even someone that you've known for a long time?
SPEAKER_00I so love that question because I have actually thought about that for a long time. Because even as a teacher, I used to be a teacher of middle school, you know, teenager. So that was a whole like, okay, how do I, because teenagers are also can be very like, how are you fine? How's everything okay? You know that. And for me, I would say it's not asking those questions, right? Even though they might offer it, I I might ask, like, how are you feeling? Like, just kind of a deeper, not like, are you okay, but just like, how are you feeling? Or I might share something for me, not something personal that would be shocking or anything, but just I just find that simple, even like simple honesty, like, oh, I just had this really tender morning where like some grief came up. Like it really kind of like throws people off. Like, if if I'm having like, and I feel like, like if it's appropriate, obviously, not if I'm, but but it could be a very kind of uh quick interaction and just sharing something like that. I feel often again, like I said, either people will close off and be like, okay, I don't want to talk about this, or people will soften and just be like, oh, like I had that too, or I I feel that too, or even even like with the World Cup in Mexico, which seems like such a simple thing. But when Mexico lost, I was crushed and it was like all of Mexico the next day. Felt so sad. And I was just like, really, I had so many interactions where it was like, oh, it was so sad that Mexico lost. And people just would lead to deeper conversation, like just this deeper core sadness about things in Mexico. You know, I don't want to get too on tangent, but I think that's how I have found that I do it. It's not not to just kind of engage in like, oh, the weather's so nice, oh like all of that stuff, just like really sharing something that feels just honest. And and then often people will respond in kind, like in at some other level of of connection.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. I I love that so much. That's so valuable. And we probably a lot of us do that naturally, but it's it's lovely to see how that works when it's intentional. Yeah, that's beautiful. Jenny, I would love for you to talk a little bit about what happens when we get attached to identities, and perhaps those identities don't fit, or they end up leaving us for some reason. Um, and how we sort of deal with that. And one of the ways that I I think about this question is re- around the topic of credentials. Typically in my life, I just don't care about people's credentials. I just let's move on to something else. And so I um I'd love to hear your point of view on that.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. And there's so many little clips that I'd love to have more conversation with, with all of you, because there it's opened up quite a lot for me. And interesting credentials. I have a lot of credentials. And for a while it was a big part of my identity. And the more letters I could add on my business card, the better I felt about myself, right? I was like, look, I've achieved. And then I hit this place where I was like, I want to burn it all down. I don't want any credentials, right? And then I went through periods where I saw people, I'll just be very candid, you know, who were marketing themselves as like relationship coach. Um, I'll just be honest, who I'm 28 and I'm a marriage coach for, you know, couples in crisis. And and I'm thinking, you took a freaking weekend workshop and you're 28, and what do you know? Right? Like I could feel in me the response of like, I've been married 26 years and I've been through, right? Like, and what kind of not that I need credential, but it's like, where are the roots in that, right? Where are the roots? And I think, you know, your your interaction right now with Lisa Espinoza sort of touched at that, that because we're in a world where many of us are very spread out and maybe we only know people online or distally. And so we ask a question, who are you? And in other times, we know who someone is because we've been walking the land or in a clan situation or in a small town. So we know their essence because we've been weaving something or families have been weaving something for a long time. But when we're in this sort of fast world, like tell me who are you? When I mean, raise your hand if you thought you knew someone in your life and then you had a big disillusionment and you were like, wait, I, your identity, I thought you were this, and it just crumbled, right? Because what they said, I believed, and I thought that that meant, right? And all of us, whether that's a partner or a friend or a teacher, whoever it might be, and and it's because we're seeing another aspect, sometimes a shadow aspect of that identity coming forward, or we recognize in ourselves, and this is true for myself with myself and myself with someone else, where I am disallowing my myself from seeing something that would be contrary to the identity that I need to ascribe to that person or myself. Right. And so I feel fine saying, yeah, I have judgment used to when I saw people advertise themselves as something and I thought, where the hell are your credentials or how do you have right? Because I know that's a normal to have a response. And then also where there is judgment or shadow for me to look at that, right, and recognize we all have something to offer and I'm not here to stand in judgment. But our self-awareness to notice that reaction, or when I or if I hear someone say who would do that about someone, it's because the that that that person is doing is contrary to the identity that we've ascribed to them, right? Because I've said you're this, and now you just did something here, and who would do that? And that means how can I be in relationship with somebody who did that thing outside of the box that I put them in that helped me feel certain and safe about who they are, because you're who you are and I'm who I am, and we're gonna agree that maybe we're not gonna look at these parts. And it's in part why I love working with couples in crisis, because crisis is when it gets good. That's when, like, oh, now we're gonna talk about the things that have been hard. You know, for those of us in friendship or in coupledom, when we're willing to do, to go through the rupture, totally normal in relationship and repair, that's what grows maturity. Then we go deeper. And that's when I think we are able to touch into a person's essence, right? And know who they are, because we live in a culture where it's rupture, leave, rupture, leave, rupture, leave, right? And and many of us aren't taught how to repair, which requires us to have solidity, have a kind of ego strength, a sense of who we are, a flexible identity, like, oh, maybe I can be someone who can forgive. I've worked with many people who've said things like, if my partner had an affair, I would leave them until their partner has an affair. And then they're like, maybe not. Like maybe I can get through this rupture and go to the other side of repair, right? That requires an identity shift. That requires something, you know, um, whether they stay or not, right? It's not about that to me. It's about the the um the the medicine is in the journey, right? So yeah, great question, Kay.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you've you've really brought up a lot of things. One is that like a lot of like things that are popping in my mind. So one is that like you take the the the challenging, deep, fluid topic of identity and then lay marketing on top of it. It's like oh my god. And but but this is this is our reality, is that we also are exposed to so many more people in an intimate way because of technology that maybe we're not really built to be with that many people and to understand them. The uh I want to ask you about the fluid nature of identity because you mentioned it earlier, and um, you know, I'm I'm wondering if like how the attachment to identity has been playing out in your life with this shift that you're in, and how do you let go? And how do you embrace what you're becoming, not knowing exactly what it is, and and then also how do you deal with the fluid nature of other people's identities?
SPEAKER_03Such a good question. And I was thinking about that. I think we have to make space for that in ourselves and in others, right? And and yeah, and I I know now a lot of us are raising kids who are um moving through identities very quickly or radically redefining themselves. Um, you know, my own kid has had maybe six different names, um, you know, different gender identities, different orientation, all kinds of things. And and that's been a real lesson in flu in flexibility and fluidity, right? And just saying, okay, okay, um, and being with whatever is showing up and then watching it change and not judging it and have you know, containing my own responses that maybe, you know, anyway, that's that's one thing I'm thinking about has been great training ground for me in allowing, um, yeah, allowing those shifting identities. And I think as an adult and as an old, you know, older version of myself, I mean, right now, I'll be totally honest. On one hand, I know intuitively I'm in on the right path, and I'm in a more of an unknown space than I've been in a quite a while, and it's unsettling. And a lot of, and I think many of us are in this right now because of my sense of the collective is that like change is has ramped up incredibly quickly, right? Nothing the ground is not stable. Um, and it's all changing. And I get that intuitively too, like it, you know, it's backed up by my own, yeah, work with receiving guidance that this is the time we're in in astrology, I'm thinking would confirm that as well. What little I know about it. So I think we're all in kind of the PhD program of being fluid with our own identities and others and what the world looks like and what it's supposed to look like, and what we thought was solid and what's maybe not so solid. Um, one of the things that I'm working with right now, and probably those of you who are therapists are you know very familiar with this, and it sounds like the archetype thing too, but is like parts work. And um, I'm so I've been um learning about that work of like this. I I knew about inner children, but I didn't realize that maybe we have a whole freaking like busload of different parts. Yeah, like uh had a sense of it, but uh, you know, I'm getting a deeper sense of it. And what I notice is that some of my parts, let's say, are much less happy with the unknown that I'm in right now. Um, yeah. And and uh when I can connect to my more, you know, intuitive sense of being in a flow of becoming uh some new version of myself that incorporates all of you know my experiences and what I know how to do, then I'm good, but I go in and out of it, frankly. And sometimes the part of me that really likes to be able to tell people who I am or show who I am or get feedback or you know, and and I think a lot of us I was thinking again about this idea of attunement and mirroring. Like if we haven't had that, I I personally didn't grow up in a family where the my parents knew how to do that. And it's something I really tried hard to do as a parent. I don't know if how successful maybe we were, but that idea of like, I feel you, I'm watching you, I'm observing you, I feel you, and I respond to you in a way that's about you, not about me, right? And I have my own responses, sure, but that's me. So if we haven't had that, I do think that those different identities become or those different parts can become more rigid, maybe. Um, because it's like, see me, see me, see, see this part of me, see that part of me. And and I'm trying to just have compassion. I think it always comes back to self-compassion. I'm just trying to have compassion for the discomfort that I feel. And um, you know, I was in the literary world for a while. I was publishing, I was like getting feedback from my writing that just doesn't resonate as much now. I was, I had a Facebook group with, you know, a community of people who were reading my stuff about spirituality, and that felt really good. That kind of fell away. So anyway, I I'm I'm it's a struggle, I'll be honest. It's a struggle to feel like I'm between identities or I'm not sure where I where I am right now. But I think that's maturity too. I think maturity is like loosening our hold on on that. And I uh just one more personal kind of anecdote is I'll say, um, I had a dad who I think because of trauma and because of the generation there where he was a part of, he had a very, very rigid identity. And I somehow knew even as a child, I thought he's not gonna age easily because he was he looked great, you know what I mean? He was like good looking, successful, you know, likable, whatever, but it it was a bit of a performance, and you could feel it if you're a feeling person, you could feel that underneath that it was that was on shaky, built on shaky ground. And then as we age, of course, the ground gets shaky. And and and without going into detail, it was an his, you know, letting go. He I don't know that he ever could let go of that that image or allow what was underneath that to be okay with that or to know that who that was. And um, it was very painful to see. And I guess I guess it's helpful to remember that that's that's one extreme, but that's the alternative of not being able to be fluid, or not being able to allow those selves to to to be in question or to to fall away or to be curious about what's underneath the more fixed identities that that feel good to show the world sometimes. Yeah. So um I guess stay tuned, okay. Yeah is what I want to say.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I I the so much of what you said really resonates with me. And I I've I've I've always really been curious about why people uh hold on to these identities so strongly, especially like like you said, in young people where everything is super fluid, like why not just just be you? Like, why do you need like all these labels and boxes and and stuff? And I I guess it's part of the process. It's like like it's like a blob taking form, you know, and sometimes the boxes are needed to, you know, put a shoulder together and and all of that.
SPEAKER_03So um I just want to say I think it's for me, I think it's about safety. Safe to to to feel for at least for a little while, to to like wear uh a suit of clothes that says, like being a teacher, I I was the middle school teacher also, and and to go in every day and they know who I am. I'm Ms. Sullivan. I'm here to talk about this novel. And wow, it felt great, you know, sliding right into that role. And everybody wants you to be in that role if you if if it's a happy, you know, position for you. It was it was it was delicious to be Ms. Sullivan and to know exactly where I needed to be and what I needed to do and what I thought they needed, and they liked it, and I liked it, and it was like awesome. It's it's painful when that ends, I think.
SPEAKER_05When you know, yeah, that I I think that's the point you were making with your father is like the the tighter your grip, the more painful it is when it's torn out of your hands. If you're living life, you know, with your hands open, then you know things are gonna kind of flow through you.
SPEAKER_03But it's difficult, it's really there might still be pain, there might still be grief, right? Might still be the like I'm I I like what David Foster Wallace, the author, said everything I've ever let go of has claw marks on it, you know. And um trying not to um thank you so much.
SPEAKER_05Um, Cerise, I wonder if I could ask you um just personally, uh maybe we covered this before, but what um identities for you have been harder to let go of and what have been easier to move into, if that makes sense. Harder to let go of, but easier. And or which which identities have been hard for you to let go of and which have been easy, easier?
SPEAKER_02For me, I think the business person um was difficult because that was over 25 years of being in the corporate world. So that identity, um, definitely, and moving into a more spiritual um identity because of caring about what everyone in the corporate world was going to think. So having been the business person, hearing the conversations taking place and knowing most people's perspectives that have been publicly shared, it was a major shift in my identity personally. I remember being very careful about my name being on Zooms in groups that could identify me in my corporate world. It was very hard, you know. It was like I was straddling both worlds, both identities for, you know, a period of time. And um, that was extremely difficult. It was almost, you know, having like multiple personalities going on at the same time. It was extremely um an extremely difficult period of time for me.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's like leading a double life. I I feel like you're the perfect person to ask this question. What do you do when someone you care about or even somebody you you are just in a you know a more casual relationship with perhaps doesn't want to accept your new identity?
SPEAKER_02I think that's a really difficult situation to be in. Um and I think it's really unfair to be honest with you. It should be the individual who gets to decide, right? If I'm going to be this spiritual being and and walk that path, then why should other people, you know, hold me back from that identity that feels like my path, like my true authentic self. And so I think as a society, there are a lot of things that we can be doing that also could help people with their identities. It's very difficult to witness someone going through that. So, like I so I have a ton of compassion for people that are in that situation. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I mean, it's kind of what Theo was was saying is that, you know, another person that can't accept a new identity in you, it's probably fear-based. They don't know that person, so they don't feel as safe. Sometimes it feels easier and safer to leave that person and be on their own or find somebody who who resembles, you know, whatever the box was that they're needing that you no longer fill, than to actually open up to that kind of change. You know, it's really all about change. I want to just kind of start rounding things up here and asking each of you maybe to be a little more personal about the identities that you have had to let go of or identities that you're choosing to move into, um, and kind of like how you're navigating that. But let's start um there, Sarah.
SPEAKER_07Well, I just want to say this so I don't forget uh a lot of what was shared recently in the last few who shared um made me think of this. That um one of the places where we can really uh feel safe witnessing someone else sharing their true self is when we witness someone sharing their personal art. And that could be, you know, a painting, it could be a poem, it could be a song that they write, but just taking taking from their soul and creating art seems to be a place to go and witness people for me. I just wanted to mention that. Um as far as my own personal identities that I've released and what that's been like for me, um, I for like 25 years I've been known as a yoga teacher. So that was an identity that I don't think will ever go away for me. I I'll always be a yoga teacher in the way that I live my life, but I might not always be teaching classes or you know, whatever it is. I just I feel like that's when I was in college and I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life as far as a a college degree goes, I was I was in a space of like, I don't know, I don't know where to go with college. And when I was asked if I wanted to join a yoga teacher training at 19, I was like, that was the first time I was like, yes, this is me. This is this is I love yoga, of course. Why wouldn't I even think about like a yoga teacher? That's gotta be the path for me. But um but I really enjoy stepping away from teaching classes, retreats, trainings worldwide, traveling all over. Like I've I've become mom for six years, and that's been great, and um I know that will never go away, you know, either. But I just I enjoy the theater, I enjoy the costume changes, I enjoy trying on different things as far as what I'm doing and how I'm sharing my life, but I always feel like I'm sharing my authentic self in whatever form that is. It doesn't ever feel like a costume that's not me.
SPEAKER_05Thank you. I love that. Um Lisa Spravka. Um can you share a little bit about identities you've had to let go of and what you're moving into and how that process is for you?
SPEAKER_06Um well I I heard you when you said get more personal. I was like, okay. Um I um I I want to say like that it also foundationally I've always felt like my identity is what I'm feeling at the time. And that way it's very fluid because I'll feel differently about different things. But um one thing that's like currently very tough is um I grew up uh in the Catholic Church and always didn't like the message um and and kind of rejected that. And I'm finding people who are explaining the Bible better than I was ever taught, and I wasn't even really taught. anything about the Bible. Um but I very uncomfortable being called a Christian because I don't think I had a very good view of Christians. And but what I'm finding out this is just trying to protect myself here that Christians don't all believe the same thing. But that I'm exploring a new area um about God's message Christ's message Jesus' message the Holy Spirit message. I'm exploring what that is for me. And uh and I don't really want to call myself anything but um a truth seeker.
SPEAKER_00Can you talk a little bit about identities that were difficult to let go of yes I guess I can share one that I'm feel I'm in the process of letting go of and it's this identity of it's like hard worker overcomer almost like I've just had so many experiences in my life where I have felt like I've had to like dig myself out of the mud you know that no mud, no lotus that whole um image like so many, so many that it and and I'm so proud I can look back and think like wow that was amazing I got through that but I've also come to understand there's this identity around that that I want to let go of this this almost this expectation of like what's the next hard thing? What's the next, you know, what's the next mountain I'm gonna have to climb what's the next and I really feel my soul inviting me to step into this especially connected to service also right this connection to like oh well being in service being in that it requires some type of I don't believe this but this identity can be wrapped around that like that it requires suffering that it requires overextending that it requires putting myself last and it's like I feel like I'm in that process of like P like releasing that identity and I'm I'm and feeling this call to like move through with more joy like more joy and more ease. And although that sounds lovely I can feel that old identity that can feel but that's selfish but that's even though I don't believe that there's still this like and then even this fear of like well what if that becomes my identity and then something another horrible thing happens right there's there's I'm like really playing with that and I feel like that's right now my work of um yeah stepping out I can feel again like my soul the divine mother like really saying like let go of that identity of survivor, overcomer, mountain climber, whatever, and step into this next identity that's still going to be incredibly powerful and strong and bring those pearls of wisdom with me. But that I'm open to being more supported and more yeah there's something about the joy and the ease. And so it's interesting how incredibly painful this journey can be when it's all about stepping into joy and ease. But how much I can feel that alchemy inside of me the grief of letting go of that old identity but also the hope and excitement and the like oh no this is what feels better. But like both are living in me right now and it it's like feels like a very big stretch and I'm trying to embrace it. But yeah there's times where it feels incredibly uncomfortable. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Well I can really really resonate with that I I have like an identity as a doer I've realized recently and it's not that I can't you know enjoy time off but it was it really became crystal clear to me when I had um contractors working at my house and I was struggling to just like like sit and read a book. It's like they're gonna think I'm loafing. Why would I care what my contractor thinks I do during the day you know but I it's like so deeply uh in me to be a doer because I'm doing this I'm doing that so um we are out of time and thank you all so much for being here and sharing of yourself once again I appreciate it so much and and thank you and good night thanks Kay bye everybody bye everyone