.jpg)
What We've Learned So Far
Women, wizened by experience, presence, and attention, gather to discuss topics of depth in a world deeply in need of softer, fiercer, clearer perspectives.
What We've Learned So Far
Anger
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
What We've Learned So Far gathers a group of wise women around life's big questions and everyday experiences. We explore what we're learning about life, relationships, purpose, community, and what it means to be human in a rapidly changing world.
Listen, subscribe, share, and join the conversation. We'd love to hear what YOU’VE learned so far.
In this episode our wise women explore Anger. And these are some of the questions we've posed for ourselves:
- What does a healthy, grounded relationship with anger look like?
- How can anger serve as a catalyst for personal or collective transformation?
- What wisdom might anger be trying to offer us when it arises?
- How can anger help us identify our values, boundaries, and deepest commitments?
- How can we transform anger into compassion, courage, or purposeful action?
Our panel of wise women:
- Ashley Guastalli (This Episode’s Moderator): www.ashleyphoenix.net @ashleyphoenixofficial (IG)
- Kay Eck: kayeck.com
- Joan Advent: joanadvent.com @joanadvent7171 (YT) @joan.advent (IG)
- Lisa Espinosa: lisaespinosa7@gmail.com lisaespinosa.net @lisaespinosa_ (IG)
- Lesa Spravka: lspravka@yahoo.com
- Thea Sullivan: theasullivan.com thea@theasullivan.com
- Jenny Glick: jennyglick.com
- Sage Acharya: www.becounseling.com sage@becounseling.com sageach (FB) @sageacharya (YT)
- Meggan Riley:www.megganemily.com
Video Production by Cyber Citrus Creative: https://www.instagram.com/cybercitruscreative/
Music and Performance by Keith Hill: https://www.instagram.com/khillcorp/
Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. This is what we've learned so far. Okay, so welcome everybody to our panel chat on the subject of anger. Woo! I'm sweating. Okay, so I'm gonna turn it over to our moderator, Audrey. Audrey, I always call you Audrey. Ashley Phoenix. That's my daughter's name. Okay.
SPEAKER_08Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you to this amazing panel for coming in to talk about anger. It's something I really, I mean, oddly enough, really enjoy talking about. So I'm excited to get into the depth of this conversation today. And since we have so many amazing things to talk about when it comes to anger and there's so many different perspectives, we're just gonna dive right in. So I'm gonna randomly call on people. There's no rhyme or reason for it. And I'm gonna ask you a question and I'd love to hear what you have to say about it. So let's dive in. So I'm going to start with Lisa. Lisa, it's so good to have you on the chat today.
SPEAKER_02And which one? Because last time I remember this happened with Jenny, I started answering. She's like, no, I meant the other Lisa. So which Lisa? I am looking at you, Lisa. Okay.
SPEAKER_08Lisa L I.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_08So my question for you is can you share in your experience what does a healthy, grounded relationship with anger look like? And please tell us where you're coming in from and a little bit about yourself.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Thank you, Ashley. And it's so good to see you. My name is Lisa Espinosa, and I'm a spiritual career coach, and I coach helpers, therapists, coaches, entrepreneurs, and I help them create more impact from a place of overflow and fulfillment rather than overwhelm and depletion. And my clientele is global, and I've been living in Mexico in the beautiful city of Querétaro for the last three years. This is my ancestral home. So it's been just a dream to be here. So thank you, everyone. Can you repeat the last part? The healthy, can you read that back to me, Ashley? Just that last part. Of course.
SPEAKER_08Can you share in your experience what does a healthy, grounded relationship with anger look like to you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think this was something that definitely took time. Anger wasn't safe growing up. I but I was around a lot of angry people, mostly men. So I think for a long time I didn't even think about having a relationship with anger. It was more, I think it was other emotions like shame and anxiety and sadness that I really sat with first. And then got to a place, you know, 10, 15 years ago, where then it was like, oh, it was like suddenly safe to feel my anger. And that was that journey of just knowing that it was letting myself feel even just the vibration of anger in my body, right? Like that was the first step to just allow have permission from myself. And just I was just in a different living circumstance to feel the anger. And then to not, because then spirituality came in that also kind of sends weird messages about anger, especially for women. So there was also that, like, oh, well, it's not spiritual to be angry, and just you know, all of that. So I had to navigate through that, that other layer, but really, and I know we brought Kalima up last time too, but that goddess, her, like it just became like this ferocity, protective energy, passionate energy. And that's when it started to feel more grounded in my body and safe. And I and and like giving space to it. I think just knowing anger, I do believe, I know there's another question about that, but I do believe there's a sacredness to anger, and uh, and there's it can be powerful fuel. So that has been like an evolution for me, like to think about it that way and to connect with Kalima. And I literally pulled a card before we started, and it's Kalima, which I was like, what? So um that that image of the divine mother, very fierce, and that anger and protection and fuel has been very powerful for me. So that's what I would say.
SPEAKER_08I love everything that you've shared so much, especially when you're talking about it as fuel, and also when you're talking about the misconceptions, it's like you're hearing from one space that anger is one thing, and then you're hearing from another space that anger is something different, and to start to almost discern it and feel it out, like you talked about it as a vibration. I think that's such a powerful directive to go, a direction to go in anger. And since I was talking to you, Lisa, I'm now gonna bring it to Lisa L E S A. So good to see you. And I'd love for you to share, Lisa, where you're coming in from and also the same question. Can you please share in your experience what does a healthy, grounded relationship with anger look like to you?
SPEAKER_03Thanks for that. Um yeah, I'm Lisa and I now live in San Antonio, Texas. And I have always uh loved getting to the bottom of things, how and wondering, I wanna, I always want to understand how things work. And historically, my whole life has been focused on how humans work. And so I take a like a sociological, psychological view on a lot of stuff. So um, like um I I honestly, when I prepare for this, I was really thinking about all the unhealthy um relationships with anger, mostly it being people suppressing it. And because they can't, it'll come out in in very dysfunctional ways when they suppress it. Um but I have always loved, like I I even I realize I don't really reflect on my use of anger in my own life, but I absolutely get very excited when other people are angry. I'm like, yes, you know, they'll be speaking their truth and they're upset, and um yeah, so I love that, Lisa.
SPEAKER_08I love that you celebrate others when you are acknowledging that they're moving anger through their bodies and through their space in a healthy way, and you're like, yes. And I love that you're talking about that sociological perspective and that psychological perspective, because I think you're right. I think when you talk about that internal space of anger, but then also how can anger both connect a community or connect a gathering, but also how does it, how does it ripple into the space, especially if safety is provided that that can be shared? And then what happens if it's not safe and what that looks like? So I think that's a really great perspective that you're bringing up the stage. I'm so excited to connect with you tonight. And I'd love to hear where you're coming from in the world and how you support the planet. And my question for you is do you do you think there is a difference between reactive anger and conscious anger? Since we've kind of touched a little bit on that, and and how do you see the difference in that?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, so I'm Sage. I'm coming in from Illinois, Naperville, it's a suburb in Illinois. Um, I'm a mental health therapist, so I work a lot with uh people who have anxiety, depression, substance abuse, um, and other types of abuse as well and trauma. I've just recently learned a trauma technique too. So I'm seeing more clients with trauma. Um so, yes, I have seen the consequences of uh reactive anger, obviously, with my clients being some of those victims of uh reactive anger, which can be obviously very explosive, um, not conscious at all, not mindful. Um, a lot of people who hold a lot of um anger and take it out on others uh really don't know how to work with that energy. And I think that's when it becomes um unconscious, if you will. Um, so I do teach a lot of mindfulness strategies, which I feel is so paramount in um being able to work with anger. If we become mindful of the energy of anger and how it's building up in us, we're less likely to react from it. Um we're not going to react from it and we're not gonna suppress it. We're trying to find that like middle ground of anger. And I think, you know, reactive anger is also not just destructive to others, but um, we feel it in our bodies when we are reacting from a place of anger. It can turn into uh feeling shame around the anger we just kind of, you know, let out and where we caused harm. Um, so you know, anger is not just harmful like to others, but to ourselves when it's reactive. Um but I think when it's conscious and it's mindful, it is powerful and transformative in so many ways. Um, like Lisa too, I also get excited, especially when women who have suppressed anger for so long are now using it to transform themselves, you know, to draw more boundaries where they need to, um, you know, and trying to change the systems uh that need changing. Um, so I think that's that's the difference I see in the reactive, you know, and the conscious anger. And so conscious anger is just powerful, transformative, and just really beautiful in so many ways.
SPEAKER_08I love, I love what you're sharing. And I'm curious, is there, is there maybe I'm sure there are plenty, but I'm wondering if there's one particular um step or conscious action that you can take when you feel yourself if you're able in the moment to identify, like, wow, I'm having some reactive anger. Is there is there one step that that someone might take to start to even understand and identify that it's reactive anger versus conscious?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, that's a great question. I think that um we can first name it and say, okay, there's anger, the energy of anger, the raw energy of anger, which can feel, you know, like a volcano. It's kind of like moving upwards, you know. So if you can, we can first identify that energy, name it anger. And then I think breathing with it is very powerful, walking with it. We need to move our bodies sometimes because um it's such powerful energy and um very strong at times. And you know, there are different levels of anger too, so we can't always breathe with the anger because you know, we've got the irritation, it starts with irritation, moves into frustration, anger, and then there's rage, which in you know, a rage state, we cannot be conscious of it at all. By that time, we're at like a tan, and um, we can't breathe with it, we can't walk with it. We really can't do much with it at that time. So I think it's about catching it early, naming it, and then seeing if you can bring some movement and breath work with it. Um, I think that can be really powerful.
SPEAKER_08I love what you're sharing so much, and I I love that you're articulating this sort of embodiment identification, movement, and breath. Jenny, I kind of honestly I have the same question because I know you do a lot of movement practice and you do a lot of work with women. And I'm curious, the same question in like, is there is there a difference between reactive anger and conscious anger? What does that look like? And and what are ways to shift it if it needs to be shifted?
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Ashley. Good to see you. Um, so I'm Janie Glick. I'm trained. I have my 20,000 hours of marriage family child therapy and am a sex therapist. So I work in the relationship space. And um, predominantly with women in midlife, as we're in that initiatory portal where anger is alive and well. Like many of us, it's the first time we allow ourselves with the beautiful blessing of estrogen depletion. Uh, we have the opportunity to feel what it feels like in our body, to be less interested in how it is that others perceive us. And so when we have, when that fire builds, you know, and and somatically we can feel that, or biologically, is heat building, inflammation, hot flashes, dryness, right? Like all this arid um aridity that can happen in our bodies, um, often that's coupled with anger, anger, fury. Um, and so in terms of how it's different, yes. And I, you know, real time as I'm as I'm feeling into the question, Ashley, it I think that often the reactive anger, it is just reactive. It's like no, right? It's like sacred holy rage, no. And it comes up in the body, and then I can bring consciousness to it, right? But the body for me, as I've really been holding hands with fury, I would say, for me, for the last several years, um, feeling how that signal, I'm I'm interested in allowing the signal to express. And just today, I was writing about how many of us in this perimenopause-menopause time period were raised in the late 60s, 70s, and 80s, where we were taught to cry it out, cry it out method so that we could self-soothe, right? Um, latchkey kids. We really learned how to turn off our signals of distress or to ignore our signals of distress. And then just really feeling into what that means for this whole generation of women that are coming into midlife and we have signal, signal, signal. And so that that reflexive pattern to turn off the signal of distress, anger, rage, frustration because it's going to bother somebody. And we were good girls that learned how to conform and comply and not bother anyone. And so I'm just really seeing that sort of generationally moving forward and then how it is that we meet the friction of midlife. Um, so for me, it feels like reactive comes first, and then we get to couple consciousness with that and just meeting that, being aware and providing that wide permission field for the signal, right? That many of us just learn to not hear, right?
SPEAKER_08I love, I can feel when you're talking that these things are moving in sympathy with each other, right? This reactive and conscious and that they're moving together. And as someone who's going through perimenopause myself, I'm noticing that I have this energy of enough that's been showing up in my consciousness that is allowing for it for me, it feels like a sacred no. And there is fire behind that no. It there is an energy to it. And I love everything that you've shared because I agree. I think what you're calling out is something that we learned, like to Lisa's point in talking about the socialization, that that sociological aspect to being a woman in this current present reality and and articulating how that plays a part in our sudden awareness of it.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_08Okay. I would love to hear from you. And my question for you is how can anger serve as a catalyst for personal or collective transformation, kind of going off of what Jenny was sharing about collective.
SPEAKER_04You said K, right? I did. I was afraid of that. So I just want to start out by saying I have a decades and decades and decades and decades and decades and decades of experience with suppressed anger. So I'm not the um exactly the best person to talk about that. But um, I know for me, the way that I've um been coming to terms with it is that it's always a catalyst for me to look at the situation that is arising, what my role and responsibility is in that. And that could be, you know, a complete um, you know, sort of bypassing of the actual physicality of it. But um I tend to, I want to dig into why am I feeling this way? What is what is the situation showing me about myself? What is the situation showing me about the other person? And I think that uh Lisa mentioned earlier about the fuel, and I I think about that often, and I think as as a as fuel is a catalyst, um to me it it's always trying to lead to compassion. So when you have, and I think this is both collective and personal, when uh you're in the fire of anger, all the energy is moving toward the opponent, possibly yourself, the situation, and it doesn't leave any room for anything else. So there's no that has to be resolved before you can move into compassion, love, understanding, acceptance, whatever the uh the next step is for that. So I mean, I I don't know what the proper um expressions of anger are, if there if there are proper expressions, um, because I have not practiced that very much, but I do know that it it feels to me very much like a like a stage of the process that that then moves on to something else. And I think understanding as an individual and a society how what those steps are, you know, would be very useful and helpful.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, I love that you're kind of talking through it as a process and that you were sharing in regards to um responsibility and considering where that where that takes you. And I've noticed a consistency so far with the answers, which is it seems that it's referred when we're talking about anger, there's a fire. Even even the image that you had when you were sharing about this panel chat, there was there was a fire that was talked about. Each of you that have shared so far talk about this, like, oh, I'm sweating, like I can feel the fire in my body. And Megan, I know that you also do embodiment practice, and I'm kind of taking a little side dive here in regards to this fire and ferocity. I'm curious, what has been your experience of either witnessing or experiencing fire in connection to anger in your body?
SPEAKER_06Oh, in my body, yeah. Um, hi, I'm Megan Riley. I live in Arkansas. I'm at my home right now. It's raining outside. It's really um, it's a beautiful night. Um, okay, feeling anger in my body. I think when I was younger, it it did feel like more of a rage, um, especially during what I would call the the years that I really um expressed anger the most, which were my um, you know, my pubescent and teenage years. Um, I definitely raged through a lot of those years with unchecked and uncontrolled anger, maybe not being taught, um, even by parents who who who at that time didn't speak the language of how to direct and heal your own anger. Um, in my body, it it would literally cause nausea, um, despair to the point of exhaustion, um, guilt for overreacting, right? And and seeing very clearly who I affect. Right. And all of this kind of actually landed in a place of suffering. Right. And so when you when you yourself are experiencing anger, maybe for very justified reasons, maybe for completely delusional reasons, at the end, if if it's not directed, if it's not um dealt with, if it's depressed, um, then you you kind of end in this place of suffering, right? And that can be depression, that can be withdrawal, that can be self-doubt, loss of self-esteem, etc. Um, so in order, you know, I think yes, maybe even indirectly by accident, through the very movement-centric life I've had. Um, uh, in particular, Ashley's referring to I'm a I'm a yoga instructor, I'm an avid hiker, an outdoors person. Um I did learn very early on in actually a Tai Chi class how like exercise is the opposite of anger. Like we can move it physically out of the body, but you know, you you've got these like people who go jogging or go, you know, to the boxing ring or whatever to get the anger out. There's something, um, there's something valid about that. We've all felt it. We've all like sort of danced the anger out, right? Um, and I think, I think for me, um, the greatest tool uh has really been to to to to um to just recognize anger. We've said that a few times, like, okay, here it is, here's anger. I can recognize this now. And I think I need to pivot. Like there needs to be a decision and like a movement. And so for me, when it's physical, again, it always comes to moving it some other direction. It's a moment for trans transformation. That's what Kali teaches, right? The the fires of Kali are transformative. Um, so yeah.
SPEAKER_08I love that you shared about anger in that way because it feels when you're talking about that pivot, that there's there's almost a moment of wisdom, like a body wisdom that comes up in that connection to catharsis. Um and I love that you're sharing and to to Sage's point, and Jenny and I think a couple of others have have mentioned Kay as well, is this idea of acknowledging that there's that fire or that's there's that intensity in the body, and how do you direct it in a way that it can move through? Or like to your point, like that wisdom of discernment and and kind of operating, what do I do with it now that I've acknowledged that it comes through? Um, Thea, I'd love to hear from you in regards to your experience with anger, both in your body, and what have been some helpful ways that you've started to acknowledge it or or move it through in some way?
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you. Thanks, Ashley. And my name's Thea Sullivan, and I'm in Ohio, California. And I do intuitive readings and energy healing, and I'm a teacher and a coach. So um, gosh, I um I just was one of those people who grew up in a house where anger was not allowed. So there was a lot of quiet seething, um, a lot of passive aggression. Uh yeah, like we would literally, I if we my brother and sister and I, if we showed anger, it was like go to your room kind of thing. And I think that was also a Catholic thing. Like I wasn't raised Catholic, but my parents were and their parents were. So I think it was embedded culturally in our version, our our uh flavor of Catholicism. Um so yeah, I think when I I've been married for almost 30 years now, and I think when when uh my husband and I were first married, he would catch me uh expressing anger in a passive-aggressive way, and I literally had no idea I was doing it. So that was a real education. And and I seemed to have had um relationships with partners who were more comfortable expressing anger, um, sometimes, sometimes more reactive than conscious or controlled. Um, but that in a way was an awakening for me because I realized like I had to, you know, what's the word, withstand and respond or give feedback or match or, you know, in the messy way that relationships can be such a profound teacher. I think over time, um, through trial and error, I've learned a lot about how to, yeah, recognize when I'm angry, figure out how to express it in a way that feels constructive, um, kind of withstand or respond to someone else's anger. So I guess, yeah, I guess um I've come a long way from my childhood home, which reflecting on that feels good. Um, I'll also just say that I'm in a I'm in a program right now, learning a new healing modality. It's a nine-month program with a really profound teacher. And we just had a sacred rage ceremony. Um I know. And none of us wanted to do it. We were all like, no, don't make us have rage. But it was it was um, yeah, it was uh it was very ceremonial, it was very safe. Um, and there was a whole protocol to it, but basically we we were all drumming for each other, and then the person in the circle basically would had prepared a bunch of things they're angry about and what spoke them aloud. What and then we had access to you know, pillows and pool noodles and things to beat on, and it was so vulnerable, it was crazy, but I really trust this teacher and I really trust this group, and it was actually remarkable to witness other people allowing themselves to get really angry, and it and it was so um profound because all of it was relatable or all it was so human, if that makes sense. Like, of course, you're angry because of the things that you're talking about. We're all angry about so many things. Um, and we were angry in different ways and for different reasons. And some people, it was more social and more like the society anger about society. And for others, it was really deeply personal thing, you know, trauma and things that had happened to them. And um, and I'll just I'll I'll wrap it up by saying our teacher gave us um a little handout that was about some of the things that David White, the poet and teacher, has said about anger. And she said, just kind of take this and think about it. And he says that anger is the deepest form of compassion because it's when we feel most vulnerable for ourselves or others, and it comes from like a desire to protect. Um, and also that what else? There was one other piece to it. I'm gonna forget, but I I can come back to it. But anyway, that really made me, whoa, that really made me sit back and and reflect. And oh, I didn't remember what the last thing was. That anger was an expression of our powerlessness in the face of life, which is so true. You know, as someone who does intuitive readings, you know, we all want to change our situation, and in some ways we can, right? Because we can change our what we emanate or what we attract. But but ultimately there are karmic things, there are things that happen, there's a lot out of our control, right? And and we learn to surrender to what we can't control. But at the same time, it makes sense that we would be angry about that. So, anyway, that that that was a recent experience. I when I saw the topic for this panel chat, I was like, I need to be in that one because it's up for me, right? Not only, you know, menopausal anger, but also it's just up right now with the rage ceremony I just did and and new ideas about anger.
SPEAKER_08So thank you. I absolutely adore what you just shared and the quote of this idea of how compassion comes into play. And I'm looking at you, Joan, because I want to have a conversation with you. Um, I'm very captivated by the picture that you have in the back with the lioness. And it was something I was planning to share about is um I am fascinated by animal bodies. I could I could watch animal bodies all day, every day. It's how I access joy, but it's also how I notice how authentic um emotions move through the body without social socialization or constraints that sometimes happen in the human dynamic. And why I was particularly drawn to you, Joan, and your picture is that one of the most powerful sacred rage moments that I've ever seen was actually in a lioness. Uh, what had happened is her her cub, her sweet cub, was very playful. And of course, their nails are spiky, their teeth are spiky, and this cub kind of rolled onto the lion who was sort of lounging around. And that lion smacked this little cub really hard and he rolled away. And the lioness got up, walked over to this lion, stared at him straight in the face until she knew that she had his attention, and then she smacked the heck out of his face and walked away. And I just thought, what a profound moment of sacred rage of protecting that cub, but also putting this lion and not necessarily, I'm not talking about the masculine, feminine per se of it. It was more the dynamic of how a pride works because that lion knows that if he's pushed out of that pride, he will die. He will not survive without his pride. And um, and so I'm curious, since you brought this beautiful lion photo in, I'm curious, Joan, what has been your experience with anger and what have you experienced? Because I know that you have a beautiful daughter. I know that you have a relationship as a mother. I'm curious how you've cultivated a relationship with anger in your dynamics.
SPEAKER_05Thank you for that invitation, Ashley, and for this topic and all the wisdom. I'm Joan Advent, and I'm in uh the Richmond, Virginia area. And I have a podcast called The Crone Codes, which really looks at the arc of our development as women and the codes we gather in each of those phases and stages. And from that lens, how we relate to anger is is key and is vital. And there are so many, so many pieces of this I want to respond to. And for me, I love that Thea mentioned the issue of powerlessness and power, and that has been my experience as well that anger is often linked with a sense of powerlessness and or needs not being met. And we can have like backlogs of powerlessness, and we can have backlogs of anger, and certain conditions can bring those to the forefront. And I do think that the um perimenopausal passage, the menopausal passage, and what would be called PMS are things that can often bring that backlog of anger that's held within the body to the surface, and recognizing that and knowing how to be in relationship with that. And for me personally, I have had a lot of suppressed um anger, suppressed capacity to protect myself, that then later emerged, you know, in a tremendous amount of anger. And much of it came up um during my walk with motherhood. And part of that was anyone who's been a mother knows that like it's 24-7, and there's no um, there's no handbook, there's no, there's no coming attractions, like, hey, in 10 minutes, you're gonna have to respond to X, Y, and Z. And so it's, you know, it's all in the moment. And for me, it was, I was going through that passage because my daughter was born when I was 40 as I was going through perimenopause. So the learning how to be in partnership with my emotions and with my anger uh was significant and important part of my journey. And this particular lioness came to me at one point when my daughter was 13, and I needed to be able to harness in the most practical empowered way, just like you described, um, like that focus. And that the I know the woman that took this photo, and she described that that lioness was like, don't even think about it, because her cubs were there. And the look in the eyes of this lion, I needed to be a student of that for um quite some time just to be able to have my voice, uh, whether it was with professionals or with my daughter or with my partner, just to have my voice in a way that I previously hadn't had. The last piece I want to mention, uh, because I did go through a lot of therapeutic work to tend to my anger and to tend to those old powerlessness hurts, um, is there is a practice called uh passive, I think it's called passive resistance. And one of the things I found useful is when that surge of anger, anger is coming up, is to find a way to ground it and to ground it through um, like you can put your hands up against the wall and really anchor down into your pelvis and you know, solidly in your legs, and to push into the wall, and sounding is a very useful thing to couple with that, but it's a way to both contain the anger and move it that's therapeutic, that's not harmful or hurtful, but really kind of engages uh with the potency of it because it is uh a way that we have power. And the the one thing that comes to mind is the haka, the um the New Zealand Hakka, where those indigenous people um do this dance. And I recently saw one that was all like maidens, all young women, and the look of like Kalima looks on their faces like this was so beautiful. Like for them to just be in that state. Um, so that's all.
SPEAKER_08Thank you. I feel like you have so much more wisdom to share about that. And I really, really appreciate um all of the things that you brought in. I again coming back to bringing it into the body. I love how you shared about the potency of it. And you know, for for me, I I do I consider myself a tarot reader. I also do divine feminine movement where we talk uh like in the practice that that I work with, we talk about anger as allowing it's it's something that that can be alchemized into passion, it can be alchemized into energy, it can have a primal, what I would call a primal rev to it, especially when you're talking about dropping it down into the pelvis, dropping it into the hips. It can have sort of a swirly, muscularly exerted type of energy where it's a harnessing of the energy to serve the body in flow and passion. Like I can even see Megan is right, because you can feel it. Like when you're wanting to move that sacred energy in your body, how can you start to alchemize it into uh what some might define as pleasure, a pleasure space where there is a challenge in the energy of anger that can be uh can feel powerfully dangerous, like Joan to your point with that lioness direct gaze energy. And we're talking about that Kalima. And no, I'm coming back to you, Lisa, that mentioned Kalima for a question. But I think that there's something powerful when we're talking about how to acknowledge it, move it through the body and find that primal rev that allows for us to kind of work with maybe anger in a different way. Um, because like you were saying, like I love some of the messages that have come through of this, it's acknowledging that there's compassion on the other side of anger, either for yourself or other. There's an acknowledgement of a powerlessness that is now we're we're wanting to recognize and come in good relationship with. And so, Lisa, I would love to ask you, since we were talking about Kalima and the other Lisa, I'm coming back to you too. So we're coming full circle here. Um, but my question for you, Lisa, is how do we honor our anger without allowing it to control us?
SPEAKER_02Um, I feel like everybody has shared so much about that in a way already, but honoring it, I think for me first was right, allowing it first was kind of releasing all the programming around anger being bad or unsafe. And I do a lot, so in the coaching work, I do a lot of parts work, like connecting with the different parts, not just the inner child, but the inner teenager, the inner children, the inner young adult, like all those parts that live inside of us. So the way that I honor, one way that I honor my anger is to really create a space where I give those parts a voice, right? To really, like even like my 19 year old, I was 19 when I got pregnant for the first time. And it was, and it's amazing to me. I've done so much, you know, therapy, coaching, reflection, healing, energy work, all of the things. And yet there's still, especially now as my daughters are now becoming moms, like it's amazing how things will come up, like rage or anger that it wasn't wasn't safe for me to feel, for example, as a 19-year-old young mom, with all of the, it was just not an ideal situation with all of the judgment around me. And so giving space to that 19-year-old, whether it's in ceremony or journaling or just bringing my hand to my heart and like really almost like now feeling the anger, like now, like of course you're angry that happened. Of course you're angry that people said that, of course you're angry, like, and it's not about dwelling in the past or being stuck in it, it's a very liberating process, right? So for me, that's a lot of the honoring is that I think for a long time I was like, okay, I'm past that. Why think about it or whatever? But it's like I realize I I it it's not even meant to be skipped, right? It's like giving my parts that space. So um, that's I would say that's and Kalima, right? Creating, I have my Kalima statues. I mean, when I first bought a Kalima statue, I literally would hide it when people would come over. That's how like I was like, because I had that Catholic dogma thing, I was like, oh my gosh, people are gonna walk in and they're gonna be like, what is this statue? Right. And and I had to really be with that, like, wow, like this is and healing that, and then proudly, I remember it was like a little statue, and then Greg, my husband, Greg got me this like big statue, and it was just like, yes, like really being, you know, like this is part of spirituality and divinity and who we are. And so that's also been a way for me to honor that. But so thank you. And I'm gonna say, Ashley, when you said the enough knit, like you said about that's enough, like that really helped me so to so much to identify oh my gosh, dad. What's happening to me too? It's that like I hadn't quite articulated like you did, but that feeling of like enough, right? It's like that, like so. Thank you for naming that. I just wanted to say that.
SPEAKER_08Thank you so much. And I I love everything that you shared, especially in connection to part parts work. I'm gonna have a question for Lisa, and then I'm kind of coming back to you, Sage, on on this part of um acknowledging sort of those past moments where where anger maybe wasn't allowed to be expressed. And then sort of this almost present or how I'm understanding it is like this present moment and awareness that there's space to be angry for that moment. And and then it feels like that part is sort of coming back into the present to be integrated, or at least that's how I understood it. Perfect. Yes, exactly. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Thank you. Thank you. Um, I'm curious, Lisa, um, in regards to, you know, how can anger help us identify our values, our boundaries, our deepest commitments? Is there anything you might want to share in regards to that?
SPEAKER_03I was just thinking that um when you get angry, if you can start to notice it, because some things we've suppressed for so long and we don't even, we're like, I don't feel any anger. Um one, so noticing it is the most important thing. And um, and it usually is that that your boundaries have been violated. So, and I like what Kay said, that I think it's so important to know why it happened. And um uh, you know, some people can cry very easily. And um what's really happening is that they they're not getting angry enough. They wouldn't cry as much if they were getting a little more let allowing their anger out. But they're they're pushing that down and it's making them really unhappy. Um and then I was gonna say there's a guy um who's past now, but uh Alexander Lowen, who um started bioenergetic therapy, and that very much uses the body. Any tension you have in your body is holding something, even stuff from like infancy that you didn't like, but wasn't okay to get upset about it. Um and he has different things that can release that anger, like taking a tennis racket and hitting a bed a bed. Um, and different little different things that really affect that part of the body or that urge. Um and I think they've I've heard this about um people needing something to crunch on, something that that could be really crunchy as a way to like get your anger out.
SPEAKER_08I will admit, I think I have crunched on ice when I've been really angry, and I don't think I really thought about it before. Like, what a great idea. And as someone who is a chronic crier when I'm angry, I actually have to, I'm still working through it. So it was an interesting statement that you made in regards to that because I actually have to say it out loud. I have to say, look, the tears are coming and you're gonna want to comfort me. But I am so mad right now that I have to let the tears come because that's how my body has learned to process it. And to me, like energy leaves the body through breath, sound, and movement. So tears can be such a cathartic release. But I always have to articulate like, don't this is how I genuinely say it is like, don't get it twisted. I am really mad right now. It's just gonna come out as tears. So don't comfort me. I need to sit in the heat of it.
SPEAKER_03And information is also the way you're expressing it, that's also getting it out. Good point.
SPEAKER_08Good point. That's fair. Um, Sage, we got into kind of a juicy spot here where Lisa was kind of talking about the parts work. And I've been watching how Megan's been responding to what Lisa was sharing in regards to the sadness and anger. And I'm curious if there's anything you'd like to share in this in this sort of path that we're on.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I just want to say I love parts work. Um, I do some of that with my clients, and so you know, there is this part of us, you know, um, especially as women who have suppressed, you know, this anger. And so turning towards that part and, you know, giving it the compassion that it needs and asking it, you know, what it's trying to tell us, you know, what is the anger trying to tell us? What wisdom is it trying to give us in that moment? Where do we need to draw the boundaries? Um, do we need to take action outwardly or do we kind of need to attend to the anger for a while and just kind of like, oh, you know, it's okay. It's okay for you to be here. And um, so parts work, I think, is powerful because this there's a lot of managers that are trying to manage the anger, you know, um trying to control the anger in a way internally, um, in the internal family system. So we, you know, in order to get to the raw anger, I think we need to work with the managers first and be like, okay, you know, you guys don't want me to feel the anger, you don't want me to express the anger, you know, what's what's going on there? What are you what are you afraid of? So I think we need to kind of get behind the fear as well. Like, what is the fear of feeling anger? Um, and you know, because there's a lot of fear that I think we're conditioned to feel. Um, so it's kind of dissecting that and just kind of finding the wisdom um in those parts that that are trying to speak to us, but we are not listening.
SPEAKER_08I I really appreciate what you're sharing. And I think that that correlation to fear and the fear of the feeling, I think there's something in that to explore when it comes to anger. I'm coming to you, Kay. When when you think of these sort of dynamics between the fear of feel feeling anger or this correlation, I'm curious what your experience has been with that. The fear of feeling anger.
SPEAKER_04Oh. Yeah, I mean, I I didn't I don't I didn't have any tools. It was um, you know, in my family, there was either um I would say um kitty get um uh suppression, like the the um what do you call it, what Thea mentioned, the passive aggressive expression of of anger, or the explosive overreaction, the physical. I mean, Lisa, Lisa Sprovka can attest to this that I think sometimes my mother was so angry she would absolutely lose control. Um and it was totally abusive uh with weapons, basically. And um, you know, that's kind of the initial exposure I had to managing um anger. And then, you know, in my later years, um it just wasn't safe to um express anger. So I I'm I'm very slowly practicing with my contractor um the expression of disappointment and anger. And uh he's taking it really well. But um, you know, like instead of wanting to just fire him, I've had to deal with him. And you know, it's interesting because I can, I, I, I've said to him, like, I don't want to hear your excuses of why it is. I just need you to stand there and listen to me. And I don't even care if you listen to me, but I need to say these things. And um, you know, he he was pretty good at that. And then I could see on his face that it wasn't his intention to upset me. It wasn't his intention to anger me. And it it was like, you know, I could see the the human experience behind the the situation. And I just I felt so much compassion for him because he probably faces that kind of thing all day long. Now, I could talk about why contractors are so bad at this, but maybe another panel chat. Uh so yeah, I I don't know how to reconcile. I'm not very experienced with reconciling that. So something that I'm I'm definitely working on.
SPEAKER_08It's so interesting that you're talking about that because I've had a recent uh situation where I have had to use valid anger to advocate for myself in the medical system. I live in the United States and I was not getting the diagnosis for a lingering um ailment that I was having. And it and I had to write things down so I could say them and advocate for myself to get someone to hear me and listen to me. And it was such a vulnerable experience. And I I really appreciate this, this uh sort of what you're sharing of like these some of these experiences that we have provide us an opportunity to show how almost like how far we've come in regards to our relationship to anger from what we learned as children and it evolving into a kind of conscious, like a conscious action space. Uh, I think that's a really I've never thought about that, but I really love what you brought to that of that evolution of moving into yes, you're gonna stand here and you're gonna listen to my frustration and my disappointment in regards to how things are playing out in this certain circumstance. I want to get to uh Megan, Thea, and Joan before we wrap up with like a one-sentence uh thought from everyone. Um, in this conversation, Thea, as we've kind of stretched into exploring compassion and powerless, powerlessness and powerfulness, um, what has come up for you in regards to thoughts and experiences in connection to almost the wisdom that comes from, like you were talking about your sacred rage ceremony, like what wisdom came from that awareness through your experience? Good question.
SPEAKER_00I can say that for me in that ceremony, what came out was that most of my anger was either toward myself, toward um my sort of way of being, like inner obstacles. Um and that has been really interesting to think about, you know, like that we all we can come up against ways that we do things, programming, wiring, tendencies, habits of thought. And I just noticed for myself that there was a lot of anger turned inward. Um, and so that's just something that I've been sitting with. I think the other piece of the power and power, powerlessness that I've been thinking about is just that idea that we can both hold the importance of getting in touch with our anger and being that, you know, that lioness energy and also hold compassion for everyone involved. Like that it's a both and situation. And that we can also, you know, use anger in like be it can be messy and we can that we can sort of forgive all parties. Um, not to say that some people aren't, you know, behaving badly and there aren't abuses of power and and things that, but but that maybe in a very broad sense that we can look at upon it all as just this big mess that we're all engaged in and trying to do our best. And that one other thought that came to me was uh I was thinking about the difficulty of expressing anger for women in particular, right? All that we've talked about, but the power of women together being angry, right? And that there's so much social change that we need to see. And I think about different movements, mothers' movements, you know, globally. And um, I it just feels like together we're much more powerful because not because our individual anger isn't powerful, but maybe we feel more permission or safety in holding it together. Um that's just something yeah, that came to me as you were all talking.
SPEAKER_08I love what you're talking about here in regards to collective anger bringing in conscious action. And Megan, I saw your eyebrows raise in a really fun and playful way when Thea brought that up. So I'd love to hear what you what what words of wisdom do you have to share in regards to that collective anger and being like the almost, I don't want to call it permission because that's not always a fun word, but the but almost like the freedom that that exists when women are gathering and expressing anger collectively.
SPEAKER_06I'm I always take notes when we're doing these panels because um clearly there's so many inspiring thoughts, but it's also sparking things in me that that I didn't know when I when I logged in, right? And so I just wrote down collective anger and I wrote down conscious action space, and I have like circles around them because at the end of the day, uh our personal experience with anger, our personal journey with anger, um, is hopefully one that is um allowing space for self-evolution, right? For self-growth, and that um in our in our interest, in our unwavering interest to become our highest self and to live in our true nature and to live in that space that is in harmony with the full spectrum of our emotions and to be able to control them. What is it really a practice space for, but for the collective, right? And so every time that that anger is misdirected, I think I have in fact felt alone, which is so silly, right? Because we know that we're not alone in our anger. We know we're not alone in our rage towards injustice and the exploitation of sentient beings. And these things are, they give us the shakes. They make our our, you know, I get a tight throat talking about it. Because for me, that's when I go back. Oh, like I have my degree in women's studies. I spend some really good quality time in like the in the in the depths of feminism, right? That like good collective anger. Let's get a degree and let's organize, right? And so hopefully, um, that's my hope. That's what you know, what what I would offer here in the end is my hope is that we can master this, the self-mastery of anger, so that we can organize and that we can once and for all start um recreating, of course, um what we envision, which is that there's always a safe space, you know, to be angry and to experience joy and to be human together.
SPEAKER_08So you know, I feel a sacred rage ceremony with you and Thea, maybe, maybe coming up in the in the cauldron of creativity. I think that would be really great. Um, Joan, I'm curious if there's anything that you would like to share a final thought, and then I'm gonna do one final circle before closing.
SPEAKER_05Well, the thought that came to me is that uh anger is like becomes standard issue with our humanity. So I I think just embracing that and and knowing like it's a feature of who we are, that it's an indicator, just like on a car, there are indicators. Um and as humanity gathers together or interacts, that there is a barometer that's saying, you know, this is not okay or enough. And there's something about that. And Kay's share was was touching to me in terms of um like the full circle, because to the extent that I can relate to my anger and be in a healthy partnership with it, I don't need it as much. It's like I have the clarity, I know what needs to be said, and I'm able to say it. Like I don't need to work it myself into a frenzy in a way that perhaps um for so many years I did because I I didn't know how else to express it.
SPEAKER_08So thank you. I hope that's timestamped. That was such a great mic drop moment, Joan. Thank you so much. Um, I'd love to hear from Kay and then Lisa with the Kali Ma, and then we'll move into Lisa. But I'm I'm curious, like what are what are some final words of wisdom that you might want to share with our uh with the people who are listening or viewing at this at this time?
SPEAKER_04I would like to say that humanity has a lot to be angry about. Uh every single on the person on the planet has been abused um in so many ways. And so I would say go ahead and rage and then make sure that your rage is directed um at the injustice and not waste it on the perpetrators because that is only feeding the rage that is created, and then step back and have compassion for your own experience as a human being.
SPEAKER_08Wow. Thank you. Thank you so much that I'm gonna have to chew on that one because there I think there's some some real powerful pearls in there that I need to sit with. Um, Lisa, what's a final thought you have for viewers today?
SPEAKER_02Um before that, if you do a rage ceremony, do a virtual version as well. I was like, figure out a way to do a virtual version, but um, I think following on what Kay said, I guess I would think of it from a parts perspective. That's what came. It's like all of us have parts inside that have really valid reasons to be angry, that were that had moments in their lives where anger didn't feel safe, or they expressed it in a way that felt out of control. And so my invitation would be for all of us to create that space. And maybe we invite Kalima and some of the other divine feminine, you know, um beings like Kwanyin and Mother Mary and all these green tara to sit with us as we just like really welcome these parts and let them rage and have their expression, update them, let them know that now it is safe, and like from that place, I think that's the catalyst for everything we do externally as well. So that would be my final word.
SPEAKER_08I love that. I love that connection with the parts work and also bringing in these sort of deities and these energies that have expressed it and how do we connect with them because they also oftentimes have walked a human path themselves. I think that's such a beautiful thing to reflect on. Lisa, do you have any final thoughts that you'd like to share?
SPEAKER_03Um, just that it's so important to validate yourself when you're angry. Um, and Ashley, I love that you do that thing where you're like, oh, don't let this fool you. I'm really angry. That is the healthiest thing. So uh if people could just um, you know, like and tell themselves in this situation that would make anyone angry, like to pull the shame off of it. That that would make anyone angry. That's it. Just to notice it more.
SPEAKER_08Thank you. I love that. Sage?
SPEAKER_07Yes. I think the thing that I would want to share is that anger turned inward can also turn into depression. So just being mindful of that. Where are we turning that anger? And if we're turning it inwards, we're blaming ourselves, comparing ourselves, you know, that can also be very dangerous too. And it can turn into depression. So I have I've noticed that working with my clients. That's a wisdom that I wanted to share.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, thank you so much. I think there's a lot to unpack with the depression. I sometimes see depression as compression and it think it makes me think of like a rose, like that is tight in the bud, that sometimes it has to get tight before it's ready to stretch and expand into whatever it's going to alchemize into. And so I love that you're bringing up this point that there is that internal focus of anger and how that, how does that depression, like how can, if we acknowledge it, start to kind of move it through? Um, that's such an interesting concept and thought to think about. Um, Thea, I'm curious if there's any last words or thoughts. And then I'll go to Megan, Joan, and Kay.
SPEAKER_00Um, well, this again is drawing from uh this experience that I'm in in this group with this particular teacher. And uh it turns out that after she got in touch, she says, Hey, I love anger. Anger is my favorite, which of course I'm like, what? Anyway, she um raised uh three kids. And once she learned uh how to express it and taught people how to express it, she then taught her small children um how to express it and they would just have anger time, like where, oh, I see you're really angry. Okay, here are the things you can do. Now, of course, I miss the boat on this with my fairly angry child who's now an adult, but I have a wish. I want to end with a wish that maybe with what the wisdom that we are sort of learning and sharing, that maybe the next generation can have some tools and and and be able to name it and be able to express it and and know the difference between destructive anger and you know, just cathartic. So that's all. I'm just gonna end with a wish that um the the new generations will have a different relationship to anger than we do.
SPEAKER_08Love it. Uh I think it was Megan and then Kay, uh, and then Joan.
SPEAKER_06Um, I love that that that was the segue for me because I actually wrote down the tools. That's what I want to share. The tools that I'm currently um in the trenches with. And it's always music. So I've been writing a lot of um music that that expresses a little bit of a little bit of anger lately, which is new for me. Um, and singing circles, getting together with people similar to a rage circle, but singing, just getting together and singing and singing and singing and singing is so therapeutic. And then on a very personal level, because I get to access anger, um, all the archetypes. I've been reading a lot of mythology. I'm trying to go really deep into fiction, but mythology, ancient, Celtic mythology is my current kick, but it's really helpful to me to hear the stories of the lineages coming in at the same time because this is another language that resonates with me. So always come into the creative space as a tool somehow.
SPEAKER_08That's a really great conversation, too, is anger in connection to creativity. Um, that that's I love what you're sharing here in connection to the tools. Um, Joan.
SPEAKER_05What I would like to share are some resources to uh Thea's wish. And I will say that aware parenting, which is a model that was developed by Aletha Salter, is a powerful um template vehicle for supporting parents in supporting their kids. And a friend and colleague Marion Rose has written a book that's a children's book called Tantrums Are Not Terrible, um, that I highly recommend. So those are some great resources. I think for adults as as well as kids.
SPEAKER_08I know, I was gonna say, I think even as an adult, I would like to read about tantrums. Um, I just want to thank the this panel for allowing us to have this conversation in such a such an amazing way, and so many different insights came to it. And thank you, Kay, for coordinating the opportunity to have this uh chat on anger. I'm curious if there's any final thoughts you have before we conclude our time together.
SPEAKER_04I think that if there's a certain amount of anger that you have about things you can't change, I feel like the fire can be destructive. And there's find a way to let that go. Let that shit go. That's it.
SPEAKER_08Love it. Well, thank you again, everyone. It's been an honor. Megan's Megan is showing her journal that says, let that shit go. So that concludes our time together. Thank you so much, and we look forward to our next panel chat.
SPEAKER_04Bye, everybody.