What We've Learned So Far
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What We've Learned So Far
Shame
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What We've Learned So Far gathers a group of wise women around life's big questions and everyday experiences. We explore what we're learning about life, relationships, purpose, community, and what it means to be human in a rapidly changing world.
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In this episode our wise women explore Shame. And these are some of the questions we’ve posed for ourselves:
- What is shame and where does it come from? What purpose does it serve? Is shame inherent to the human condition?
- What role does epigenetics play? Do we inherit shame? How?
- What is the relationship between shame and judgment? Is there shame without judgement?
- Why is shame such an intense experience? How does it influence our lives? Our relationships? Our decision making? Our ability to achieve our goals and dreams?
- Can shame be healed? How? If we do not heal our shame, what is the outcome? If we do heal our shame, how is our life improved?
Our panel of wise women:
Our moderator for today’s episode: Lynnda Pollio: lynnda@frequencyfineart.com frequencyfineart.com
Kay Eck kay@kayeck.com @kayeckwrites (IG) Kay Eck (FB) @kayeck1040 (YouTube)
Joan Advent joanadvent.com @joanadvent7171 (YT) @joan.advent (IG)
Ceres Ruzich: www.awakensphere.com www.globallightworkersunited.org www.lololight.org
Banya Lim
Video Production by Cyber Citrus Creative: https://www.instagram.com/cybercitruscreative/
Music and Performance by Keith Hill: https://www.instagram.com/khillcorp/
Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. This is what we've learned so far. Welcome everybody to our panel chat on shame. Welcome, panel. I'd like to introduce our panel uh leader today, Linda Palio. Take it over, Linda.
SPEAKER_03Hi, my name is Linda Palio. I live in Sedona as well. That's okay. Um I uh have done a lot with my life. I won't go into the details, but uh now I live in Sedona and I've been committed to consciousness my entire adult life. I have a book out called Trusting the Currents, which was channeled to me. And I'm a frequency artist. I bring in incoming frequencies and create art out of it. And I was very interested, particularly in this subject of shame, because I truly believe that a lot of the woes of the world are because so many people have very deeply embedded unconscious shame. Um and I would like to really talk about it a little bit more and really get an idea of where we think this comes from. Is this something that is instilled in us very young when we're when we're young and we're embarrassed about something? Is it something that is epigenetically passed to us from generations of people that have had shame? Um, or is it something that's instilled to us even deeper? If you go into a fall from grace, is it something that's just part of the human condition? So that's what we'll be discussing today. And um even the word shame, I think, is one of those autonomous words, which an automonopoeia word is a word that sounds like it is, like the word cuckoo sounds like a cuckoo. The word sizzle sounds like sizzle, and the word shame kind of brings you down. When you hear the word shame, your energy automatically goes down. And I think that um it's almost like it sounds like dirty underwear, and shame kind of feels like dirty underwear when we're experiencing it. So I want to open up the panel discussion about maybe um start with UK. What do you think shame is? Where does it come from?
SPEAKER_04Well, first I want to say that shame, like dirty underwear, is normal. Um you know, one of the reasons that I wanted to have this conversation is because I feel like for everybody, for every, if you're walking around on the planet, then shame has played a role in the in the formation of who you are. And we don't even realize it because it's so deep. I think it's both passed down, it's experiential, and it's also deeply, deeply programmed into us. And so I don't think anybody really escapes um the problem of shame, but I think it takes a lot of courage to actually face it head on because it's shaming. Like even just saying the word, it just feels like um, you know, shameful. So um I I think I have a strong feeling that shame people sometimes think that shame is an emotion, and I don't think it's an emotion. I think that shame is the filter that someone or something has put over your emotions to make you feel bad about having them, so that you won't tap into the power that your emotions afford you. So, how do we how do we bring that to the surface? I I hope that this conversation is gonna be one of those things. I was telling Linda before we came on that I recently had a discussion with two friends, and through this conversation, we kind of got around to this. I I shared with them this experience of shame that had come up for me recently. And it turns out they had the same one. And it was, and then and I was telling Linda also that it really wasn't that big of a deal. Like the topic was basically our teeth, and I had so much shame over this issue, and it turns out they had the same situation going on. So um, yeah, I think we have a lot to uncover um here today, and I'm looking forward to talking with everybody about it.
SPEAKER_03Great. Um, hey Joan, what do you think about shame?
SPEAKER_02Oh, I had lots I could say about shame. And I've been um giving it some thought because I knew we would be talking about it today, and similar to Kay, I I don't see it as an emotion. I do see it um as something that's been weaponized in some ways to um keep people in their place. And some of the things that came to mind were uh statements like, have you no shame, or um, you should be ashamed of yourself, or actually Hester Prynn and the Scarlet Letter came to mind. Like, there's a way to instill some shame and show everybody else, like, don't do that, um, or this is what will happen to you. So I'll keep it at that for now, but that that's my lens on shame right now.
SPEAKER_03Thanks. Um, would you like to chime in about shame?
SPEAKER_00Yes, thank you, Linda. Um yeah, until um Kay brought up this topic, I hadn't really thought much about shame. Um so you know, definitely listening to the conversation is definitely open my opening my mind a lot to you know bringing back memories of the past and really bringing this forefront um for me now. But um yeah, I um I think a lot of it is epigenetics too. Like I'm I'm working with this life coach who's also talked about, you know, a lot of the behaviors that we all have. And a lot of it comes from, you know, when you're in a tribe and wanting to be with the tribe and together with the tribe. And when you know, shame comes up, you know, if you do something and are different, you are outcast. And when you're outcast, you know, you can be left to die. So, you know, from that perspective, as I think about, you know, shame, I think about, you know, that feeling of wanting to be, you know, like everyone within my tribe, not, you know, not being different for survival purposes, right? And you don't want people, you know, you don't want the finger being pointed to you or anything. And I also think about it, the difference between shame and guilt and how how the interplay between those two feelings are. So uh yeah, I'm really interested in this discussion and um and learning and experiencing it. Um, the topic of shame with you all.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I I think that's a really good point about how it's used to control people through social shame. And it's really helpful to be awake and aware when someone or some group is trying to control you by making you feel bad about yourself. That's a really good point, thanks. I hadn't actually thought about that. Umia, would you like to add anything about your perspectives of shame?
SPEAKER_01I I think there's an interesting dynamic between the shame and guilt. I don't know which is which sometimes. Um until Kay brought this up. I haven't thought about it for a long time myself too, like Cherist. And but when I think about it, I had I had a very uh I was clinically depressed when I was young, until I was in grad school. And I think most of it was from shame and also guilt. And since I don't want to visit that place again, and maybe purpose, I don't, I haven't thought about it for a long time. Um but as soon as when I thought of shame, I thought about my parents, like I have one parent like blazingly showing whatever he wants, just and there's no shame in what he does, what he wants to say, what he wants the people to know, where other parents are completely the opposite. So I was dancing between those two and trying to understand those two, um and figuring out what is right as a child, it's just watching them and found myself going between those two at the same time, also finding humor in one parent that absolutely have no shame, and I feel like there's such a freedom in that at the same time, not having that also ended up hurting people around him, too, because it comes from lack of self-aware where other parents was so aware of I don't know where is the right word, and concern about that, not really expressing herself very much. Um so I guess I haven't quite figured out still now, and also still trying to have a relationship with that, and also relationship with my parents and how they were and how I grew up with parents like that. Anyway, that's where I am with the topic of shame at this time.
SPEAKER_03You really bring up a really interesting point as well, and that you know, your one parent um had no shame. So there were it didn't really matter. Um he didn't really care, but there was no shame. So the question would be is there a benefit to shame? Does shame the shame somehow help us become self-aware in a way so that we are looking um to be uh kinder to people or be more empathetic towards people or be aware? Is there an actual benefit to the experience of having shame? Maybe we need to navigate it better and understand why it's there. But that's something I hadn't thought about. Um Joan, you want to pick up about whether there's a benefit, whether we get anything from shame as well as feel awful about it?
SPEAKER_02Well, I actually do have a colleague that uh teaches about toxic shame versus I guess good old regular shame. And she would be an excellent person to to ask this, but I guess for me, I I do think there is value in being aware of how we impact others. Absolutely. And in my experience of shame specifically, it it's been a little bit of overkill. So maybe if someone has had a pinch of shame, that was enough, but when it is like heaped on in loads or is is like pouring down the um the epigenetics or the ancestral line, you know, it's toxic in my experience. So I might choose a different word, and I, you know, that's part of the the gift and the value of coming together in these ways because we all have different lenses. So for me, I might use a different word from shame. I might use guilt or I might use remorse or just being aware of the fact that how I behave impacts other people, and and that is true for all of us. So yeah, I'll stop with that.
SPEAKER_03It's really interesting because it's almost like a little bit of shame kind of helps us become more self-aware, but it's the volume of shame. And and then it's also do we sometimes we're given a little bit of shame, but we take so much of it on that we actually create more shame for ourselves. And someone could have said something very off-handed and they didn't mean it, or they forgot it right away. And we took it into the point where it we had such shame around, they could say, I didn't your hair looks ridiculous, you know, and we take it very personally.
SPEAKER_02If I can add, um in the past I've heard it described as the distinguishing between guilt and shame is you know, with guilt, I have done something bad, but with shame is that I am bad. And I don't know that that is ever a helpful message.
SPEAKER_03How about you, Kay? What did you have to say about all this?
SPEAKER_04Um, you know, I'm thinking about uh Cerise's comments about the tribe and really relating to that as a parent, um, because I think there were many uh, I don't know about in my own, well, probably in my own experience, but also generations past where there was so much fear in something bad happening to a child that shame was used to keep them on track, so to speak. Uh, that's one of those ancestral uh inheritances that I think we could do without. Um, one of the things that I noticed when I was raising my four children, especially later when I when we would get into discussions about how their childhood went for them, um, I would notice that there were certain situations where I wouldn't have considered what happened to be that big of a deal. But they took it on as something uh shameful or something that that made them feel like a bad person. Or, and so it's I think it's really challenging and uh to to understand where these things come from, how, and also to know that it's it's a bit of an onion process. Like we you don't expose it all at once, and then you know you're done. I think that you you're peeling off layers of shame as you as you face them. And for instance, um, you know, for women, I think body shame is a huge issue. And as you get older, typically, or as you confront that, I know my my daughter's in a completely different place than I was at her age. So hopefully as a society, we're evolving in that way. But um, you know, where where does that come from? I, you know, you there could there's so many theories on that. There could be so many theories. So I um I I actually don't think that shame is useful at all. Um I also don't think that guilt is useful at all. Uh I think self-awareness is good. Um I think that both guilt and shame are tools that are used to control us. And they do. A really good job of it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. And and I think what's interesting too is one of the reasons I think that shame is so anchored in place in most of us, is that other people really don't want to hear about our shame. So we really, it's one of these things that we keep to ourselves because by exposing our own shame, very often we're triggering that that feeling in the other person. And that sort of intimacy and vulnerability, particularly if you don't know someone that well, can be very uncomfortable for the other person, which then makes you uncomfortable, which then increases your shame. So it's kind of this chicken and the chicken and the egg. Um I was wondering whether anyone has had any experiences with that when they they wanted to express their shame and it it became an issue in the relationship, or it freaked someone out, or they then wish they hadn't said anything. Anyone want to grab onto that one?
SPEAKER_00I've had the opposite experience. Okay. Um, I have found that talking about it in a trusted environment can be very healing. And um, and similar to what Kay was saying earlier when she shared about her tooth situation, other people opened up too and you know, said that they had the same feelings. So my personal experience has been, you know, in trusted relationships, being able to have those conversations and share has been, you know, very cathartic.
SPEAKER_03I think it's sort of interesting too that um, you know, I think now with everyone is sort of we're all becoming more intimate with one another. I mean, there's just so much going on in the world that we're beginning to really look at things differently. And during the pandemic, with with people kind of getting together in sort of different ways, um, you know, we've all seen those crazy videos of people that showed up for meetings without pants on. And so I think there were so many weird things that happened during that period of time that people probably felt shame around, but it became a little normalized. I think we became to a certain degree a little more understanding of our human foibles, which is basically what shame is all about. It's we have some human foible and we're trying to make believe we don't have it, and that is a way kind of dehumanizing us because the things that make us feel ashamed are what make us human as well. Um, it's just a matter of whether other people accept them. Um, and I know that you know, when you're young, and I'd like to explore a little bit about when we were young, and the first time we kind of felt a feeling of shame. And for me, um, and my father was an alcoholic. And when we were growing up, you know, I didn't know any other parents are alcoholic. It turned out that half the people on my block had alcoholic parents when I finally grew up. But as a child, you you know, the family held it together. They didn't let people know. It was something that you were ashamed of that you had to hide. So I didn't really talk about it openly until I was probably 25. And now it doesn't bother me at all. But that is the first time I remember being ashamed was I was young, and my father was an alcoholic, and I couldn't talk about it, and it was something we had to hide. And shame usually is something we feel we have to hide from other people. So um uh Kate, you is there a time in your childhood that you remember, or if you want to share, a time that you felt the first time you can remember feeling shame and what that was about, and whether whether it was something that you that you evolved beyond, or whether it was still something that kind of hits you now.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think that what you're speaking to makes so much sense to me. And and it shows if you if you take the um the example of sexual abuse, if you look at, you know, the victims were shamed into silence for a reason. And as we've evolved as a population, we've we've come to understand that in order to heal those. Those things have to come to the surface. And once they start bubbling to the surface and we realize how many people are affected by similar things, uh, then it becomes less taboo. Then we're we're ready to come to the next level, the next deepest level of shame. So that's not really your question. But um so I I think of my childhood as like I struggled to find things I wasn't ashamed of. You know, like um my dad worked in a foundry. Um, I went to the Catholic school, uh, I had to wear a uniform, I was a little chubby. Um, you know, you name it. I I've uh when you we used to eat noodles with tomato soup on them, and you know, I could come up with like a thousand things. So um I I don't I don't know. It's like, where did that all come from? I think there's just this um we've we've held each other in such judgment, which I know is something that you wanted to talk about, that um and the judgment was protective, oddly enough. So in order to protect your shame, you know, you attack other people and and make them feel ashamed. And so I think we're finally graduating out of that paradigm. But oh my gosh, like it's a rough one. And it and of course, it's still going on, but I find we're so much further along than we used to be. So I would say that I was very young and and not just, and these things were not generated from my heart. They were generated from from, as we said before, people that wanted to protect me or control me or get me to uh behave in a certain way that that pleased them or to make them feel better than me. Um so I think that the the only route through to healing is to really investigate what is keeping you from the truest expression of yourself. And oftentimes you'll find that a shame.
SPEAKER_03Is there a moment in your childhood that you felt that you feel that was the first time you felt that?
SPEAKER_01I think like the right of way that comes to my mind is it's relating to sexual stuff, I think. Like to even just touching yourself. I think I don't know where I got that from because my family wasn't that religious, but I felt really shameful about touching myself. And and I think I think it's a more of a societal thing, it's unspoken stuff. And I was just, you know, young, but um I remember I didn't know what to do with that. And it's just a very basic want that humans have, right? And I think a lot of there are a lot of shame around very basic human instinct and human needs. And you know, whatever the five senses, you know, get stimulated in in and also there's a if the religious stuff gets on top of, you know, get added on to and got gets so even worse. Um yeah, it took me a while to come out of that, but I think that was probably the first one. Um but relating to shame, I feel I believe anything that occurs in us and occurs in our body, or whatever we feel, is all natural. I even want to say including shame. And it's about how we building relationships with that and understanding ourselves through that and being open about it. I think that's what's important. Yeah, sorry about our dogs. Can you hear the dogs? Sorry. Um yeah, being yeah, it's all natural, but also being having environment and society, culture, being be able to be have a have that conversation, being open about that, and that is the key.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's a really good point, too, is you know, as you know, talking when Kay was talking about the things that she was ashamed of and things that I was ashamed of as a kid. I think what's so surprising and so ironic is that it's they're simply all about being human. All these things are just about being human, and we're almost being shamed for our humanness because and for the imperfection that that is being human. Um when we and we're all sharing so many of the same experiences, and even when we're being shamed or feel shamed, because again, like it's you have to have to you have to also accept the shame. Someone could say to you, You're fat, and you have to decide I'm feel ashamed by that, or you know, screw you, it's my body, and it's I feel fine about it. So it's something that we take on that someone tries to put on us. Um but I think it's you know, I I think it's ironic that all these things tend to be around things that are basically natural for us, but we try to control them because we're trying to control ourselves in some way to make us be better than being human. Um and I think I think that's a really good point, Vanya. Thanks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I want to add on to one thing. Um, like I said, I didn't grow up in a very religious environment. And I know a lot of my friends and clients grew up in an environment religious environment that was very much controlled by a controlled shame and guilt around sex and sexual sexuality. Um, but I didn't. But I think just being able to open and talking about it, I think it's so important because I felt shame because it wasn't talked about it. And it wasn't opened about it. I think that's why I felt shame. And I think that's important.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think you know, to a large degree, we things things that we're ashamed of or things that we are expected to keep secret. Right. Shame is related to secrets, things that we don't want other people to to know, and only because we're told that other people shouldn't know them. Yeah, that's a it's uh it's it's a fascinating subject. Um Joan or or Cerese, do you want to say anything about um your experience with gene when you were young and how it influenced you?
SPEAKER_00Um I do remember when I was in grade school that uh a classmate publicly said I laughed like a retarded Santa Claus. And I was really young, and I think I stopped laughing for a few years because I was so embarrassed and ashamed uh, you know, of publicly being ridiculed like that by a classmate. Um so it definitely so that there is this memory that I have. Um, and it took me a while to, you know, to just not care and start laughing again. But it definitely had an impact um on my life, for sure. Um, and the more I think on it and reflect on it, you know, now I can, you know, now I can laugh about it. Um, but but going back to you know, parents and stuff, I I've somewhat recently had a conversation with my mom. Um, and you know, shame was a topic um about six to nine months ago. And you know, she had shared with me that um she was raised with a lot of shame. And so when she raised me and my sister, she, you know, intentionally did not raise us that way. And so I just thought that was really interesting having that conversation because and because I grew up, you know, for the most part, without you know, that situation in grade school, um for the most part, without, you know, without it in the home, um I tried the best that I could with my children, you know, not to bring shame or guilt into things too. So um I guess um, you know, we all try to do the best that we can, but there's no guidebook really to tell us and to help us be the best parents and raise uh kids in the best way. But it is very interesting to me that, you know, how my mom was raised and, you know, and how that carries. And also from a cultural perspective, too. Um, I was raised Greek Orthodox, not from, as Banya was talking about, not from a very religious perspective, but more of a cultural perspective. And a lot of that cultural perspective has to do with can has a lot to do with caring what other people think. So when you're in the village, you know, and conforming, otherwise the village will talk and you know, caring what other people say and not not, you know, being an outlier. So um, so just trying to to stay within those parameters, you know, uh growing up and you know, and then trying to find your true identity and and who you are without, you know, trying to deviate or, you know, be a reflection on your family in a negative way. And so trying to conform, you know, so I've had to navigate that as carefully as I can, um, you know, because you also don't want to create embarrassment or shame for your family, you know, because you are a reflection. Even what you're, you know, I this comes up a lot, right? With kids, it's so my son, for example, um, he was going out and he was dressed in a very, you know, at an event and dressed a very casual way. So, you know, I was just like, you know, just asking him if, you know, if, you know, he was that what he was going to wear going out, not looking to shame him, but just make sure, because it is also a reflection. Um, but he wants to be an individual and he said, you know what, I really like what I'm wearing and I'm very comfortable in what I'm wearing. I'm like, fantastic, okay. Um, so you know, just trying to balance all of that is um are just some of the thoughts that are coming to me as we're talking about shame.
SPEAKER_03Great. I mean, shame is such a vortex, isn't it? It's such a sort of a whirlpool. When you really start speaking about it, it's not like I said, it's not something that we really talk about very often, but when you start touching on it, you just feel the swirl of so much of who we are is caught up in this whirlpool of shame that kind of ripples out within our families and with our cultures. And um, Joan, do you have anything to add to this question?
SPEAKER_02Yes, um, and my dog is barking as well. I don't I couldn't hear yours, Banya. So hopefully you can't hear mine because she's been nonstop. Um part of what's coming to mind for me is just the juxtaposition of shame and power because I don't believe well, I'll just say it another way, that uh trying to assert power over is frequently a way that shame is used, and I was just remembering that uh when I I grew up, there was a lot of misogyny in uh my family, my larger family, and so when I got my first period, there was like a a uh a blend of like shame and rage and and just so much strong feeling because there had been this strong messaging around just just the the really um disparaging of women, disparaging of the feminine. So if you look at like the body or our emotions, like things that are typically associated with the feminine were uh disparaged. And so if I can share just a brief story, um at one point in my healing journey, it's probably been, I don't know, maybe eight or nine years ago at this point. I was working with uh a body worker, a somatic-based person, and I did a session where I felt like I removed this infrastructure that was like throughout my whole body that was this shame. It you know, it was like the skeletal structure of shame. And for me, it was very tied to like the traditional patriarchal, um, like white, masculine, um, church, you know, all those pillars of structures. And I felt a freedom that came with the removal of that. And I do think that it has been an instrument um of any institution or system that has tried to assert power over anyone, and so similar to Kay, I I don't really see the value or the usefulness of it, but I'll stop with that. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. No, it's really it's really interesting to hear people's or or all of our unique experiences with with shame and in our youth and how it kind of travels with you probably throughout your life. And one of the things that I wanted to uh sort of broach to was the relationship between shame and judgment. Because how much it's sort of a chicken and the egg. If we feel something bad, but we don't have anyone judging us, where does the shame come from? Um and if we but we do feel judged when we have shame. So I'd just like everyone to just sort of give their perspective on what they feel. Yeah, it's sort of a chick and the egg. Do you feel shame because you're judged? Or um are you judged and then it's sort of an interesting dynamic between the two? Um, well, I have you, Joan. You want to sort of talk about uh what you think the relationship between shame and judgment is?
SPEAKER_02So one of the things that I have noticed is that frequently, particularly if there is like what you would call a shaming, a shaming coming from the external. Frequently there can be like an element of shock. Uh for example, Sarissa's story about being ridiculed in that way. It's it's like kind of being this open expression of who we are, and then we get hit with this judgment. But I would dare say that it's not just, you know, it's not like at just the mental level. There is an energetic that's going with it that is shocking, you know, that's like stops you in your tracks, so to speak. So from my point of view, um I don't I don't think the first the first humans, I don't think they necessarily were born with shame. I think it was a creation that kind of happened along the way and and judgment was a component of it. So that's what I would say.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. Vanya, you just popped up on my screen.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, when Joan said I thought of the Adam and Eve, you know, they had a first had the app, or is it the fruit they they they knew, but under they had started having feeling shame and start covering themselves up. Um I think but for me, a shame from the childhood is not like I said, not from religion, but they what was it? Lind Linda was saying, I think it was a judgment, possible judgment from other people. What if they find out? What if they know this? What they would say. I think that's what caused me to feel shame. And it was all on myself, but all by myself, because nobody knew about what I was doing, like all by myself, had feeling all of this, it was because I was just assuming that people judge me. Um, not because you know God's gonna punish me and anything like that. Even that alone, you feel that much judge, that much, that much shame. And top of that, if you fear any about part of any institution, and I think the shame might be even greater. Um but this has been kind of you know, in my life so much when I was younger, and I worked so much to move away from that, and I I think that's area that I really choosing not to go these days. And almost almost repel the war of or shame. Almost like going even like completely opposite of it. And now now I'm in the point of realizing that everything happening in me and happened to me in some way it's a gift. And trying to understand and build relationships with anything that have I have felt and experienced in my life. And I think everything we feel is there for a reason. And um even that it was in some form, it's it's strange to say it, but I think it was still trying to protect me in some way, somehow, by feeling that as a child. And by feeling that I wouldn't do certain things or I wouldn't show it a certain way. Um, if I have had had absolutely had no shame, it I don't know. I I don't think society was ready to see me or hear me or see, you know, uh accept me. I don't think anyone could really be able to accept that. With that level of society that I was in. So it was in somewhere protect my own way of trying to keep myself safe by feeling that. I don't know if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03I I really understand that, and that's after I finished. I have the next question I want to ask after I talked to Cerese and and Kay about judgment is I want everyone to sort of talk about what it's done for them. Um, what how do we think we can heal it? And anything that, because as everyone who's watching this now is ashamed of something. That to me is a fascinating concept in itself, that every human being is ashamed of something. Um, but I want to first finish with Kay and Cerise, and then I really want to get into how do we how does everyone here here deal with their shame and try to heal their shame, and then anything else they want to share with everyone watching um about it. So as everyone leaves this, we're able to kind of uh look at shame in a in a different way and actually bring it into the light, which I think is really important. But um I want to first finish up with Kay and Sarise about their relationship between judgment and um maybe Kay, but what is your relationship between judgment and shame?
SPEAKER_04So what's coming to mind for me is I feel like shame is a structure to get you to judge yourself. And so you what when what I find strange about shame is that Nobody can really, I don't want to say nobody can help you with it, but no one would be able to draw out of you the things that you're ashamed of and to bring them to light. Because who knows, you know, what's inside each of us? And I think about the parent-child relationship. And, you know, it there's it's one thing to say you're going to attempt to raise your children so that they don't feel intrinsic shame, at least from your parenting. They're still going to experience it. And you would never know. You would never be able to say to them, did your teacher embarrass you in class by calling on you or telling you that your answer was wrong today? You know, how would you do that? It's impossible. So I think that this is important for us to realize that it's if we want to be healed, we're going to have to dig into it and find it because nobody's going to draw it out of us unless, unless we're willing to go there. So, you know, when you I think as you mature, you're less ruled by judgment of all types, um, self-judgment, the judgment of others. And so there's a there's a beauty in that. Like, talk about a gift of aging, you know, I I see that as one of them. But I think that we all need to be on the lookout if we're interested at all in healing, is to be on the lookout for those very subtle, very deep ways that, as I think what Joan spoke about, the shock is so incredibly valuable because it helps us identify oh, like I've been triggered. I don't want to talk about this. I really don't want to talk about this. And so you don't have to talk about it with anybody, but just check mark it, come back to it, and maybe dig in and see what's there for you to uncover and release yourself from.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. That was great. Um, Sarice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree with everything Kay just said. Um but um but I do think that from a I think the whole concept though of when you're younger, uh caring more about what other people think from a judgment perspective. And um, as you get older, you know, and wiser, you know, being able to let a lot of that go is very true. Um and and I think for me personally, um my own internal judgment is what I care more about than other people's judgment of me. So holding myself to a certain, you know, in a certain way um matters to me more.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I I think too that in that same vein is that we particularly as we get older, I think we you know, the the shame, the shame just sort of sits in there like a cell in your body. But as you become more comfortable with yourself and and um and less judgment, less less self-judgmental, uh you can see it there, but you don't react to it. You don't live out of it. It's just there, it's part of your DNA, like a million other things are part of your DNA. Um and it's and it's really important that you can recognize it and not respond to it anymore. Um I think that's kind of the next place I want to go is how do people that are feeling shame, and we all feel shame, but let's say, you know, there are some aspects of shame and some things that we're ashamed of that really are way more intrinsic to us and um we care about more. And if someone is really feeling shame right now about something, um, does any have any ideas of how they could maybe help themselves look at it differently? Um and you know, anything about that? Um Sarese, do you want to pick that up while I still have you?
SPEAKER_00Sure. Um so some things that I have worked on, and I agree with what Kay was saying earlier, too, about how important it is to, you know, do the self-healing, do the work that's necessary to heal, you know, these things. Um ways that I've um worked on some of these areas, um meditation vipassana is one that I have had a lot of success using to help with shame and other um areas too, anger and a bunch of other things that I've worked on. Um the emotion code and spiral work has, which is a combination of tapping as well, and there are different methods, and I've had a lot of success. That's where that conversation with my mom took place. I was, you know, working with her together on some of those things and um and found a lot of releasing. Um, and that, and that's uh, you know, being able to go deep, being able to talk about it and be able to go deep um, you know, with in a trusted environment with someone that you know that you do feel comfortable with, there were a lot of releases that happened. So I've had a lot of success with both the spiral uh emotion code and vipassana. So those are just some things that have worked for me.
SPEAKER_03Great, thank you.
SPEAKER_00Um, Joan?
SPEAKER_02So I would say it's kind of a two-pronged approach, and one is kind of the discernment or the evaluation of like, is this worthy of shame or judgment? Um, for example, I was thinking about, you know, in in American Western culture, it's so fascinating because we we have like shame around the body as well as this like hyper sexualization thing that goes on. But if you go to Europe, for example, and you go to the beach, it's not unusual to have a topless um beach for women where it's like such a rarity here. So so that is like a cultural benchmark of you know what is shameful or what is not. And there are many things like that. Like, is it shameful, as Banya mentioned, to just touch or be intimate with our own body? So having a clear sense of like what's the truth about that. Um, and then I also like I have experience working with people and myself being in recovery from addiction, but also working with people going through that process and seeing the ways in which there are times the shame can keep you sick if you don't, if you're not accountable, if you don't do the repair work. So there are times when we need to take accountability or responsibility and do the repair work with others in order to free ourselves of that shame. Um, so I would I'm an advocate for the 12 steps because they are a very powerful uh tool that has served many, you know, kind of the true essence of that tradition has freed many people from shame. Um so I'll leave it there.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, Anya.
SPEAKER_01All of you heard of Byron Katie, Katie, right? I think in her works, I think it's called work, and you can I think you can download it for free. And it was very interesting to me, you just directly questioning what are you feeling, you know, like um because of shame around shame, there's always a story that attached to it. For example, um one story, like I went to this bathroom in high school, these girls were giggling and they're making fun of making fun of my clothes. And when I came out, they were still talking, and I washed my hand and came out, and I felt so ashamed of my clothes. And it's directly asking that question like, is that really true? And do you know like a lot of stories that we believe are not true? And I mean it's been scientifically behavioral science has been proven that more than like 75% of the things that, especially the negative story, negative memories are not uh false. So I love that like directly going there, like just questioning, is it true? So, in that way, I think that her work is pretty good.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I love that. I love we have to question our own belief systems around shame because we do kind of just accept it and we think it's bad, but it's really not a lot of things aren't bad. I mean, we're ashamed about things that we really don't need to be ashamed of, and we sort of take these things on for whatever reason. Um, but I think that's a great thing to ask when you're feeling bad about yourself on any level. Just ask. I had this, I have this little trick I do sometimes where if I get triggered about something, which happens, and I start freaking out. I'll look at my for some reason I always pick my right hand, I say, is this true? Is the way I'm feeling about whatever I'm feeling about, is it true? So I pull myself into the moment, and then I realize most of the time that no, it's not true. What I've been doing is I'm pulling from the past and I'm bringing it into the present, and then I'm projecting into the future, and I'm overreacting to the situation because I'm reacting to something that's happened in the past, which no longer is valid to me. So once I realize that, I look at my left hand and I say, So it is true, and I think about something good in my life, and I think about what I have going on that is positive, and I kind of put all my energy into that space, and then it's amazing how, in a very short period of time, this thing that you were so sure of that is so terrible about you, all of a sudden you have brought in all this positive energy about all the things that are right about you, and this no longer has power. And then what I usually do is once I do that, I will take a positive small step. Like if I'm feeling bad about my health or bad about something else, I'll have a green juice, or I'll call a good friend, or I'll go for a walk, I'll sit under a tree, and I take some positive step that anchors this positive thing, and within a very short period of time, you can release the hold of this negative thinking that you have, and you're now in a positive space, and you can always go back to that. So the idea of questioning yourself whether that is true, because maybe it had been true for a moment in your life, but it no longer is a valid truth, and we just told our stories about it. Um, so thanks. That was a good reminder. Um, Kay, we're going to come to you now to finish up. And I'd like you to sort of bring your insight and wisdom into how people can really look at their shame in a way that allows them to sort of release it and heal it and just be, even if it just be more aware of it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well, that's exactly what I was gonna say, and I think that many of us are alluding to the same thing. Two of the most important tools on the entire healing journey is one, self-inquiry. Pay attention to what you're feeling, your emotions are trying to highlight something for you that needs healing. And two, self-love, like self-love, self-love, self-love. Like you are a perfect, divine human being on an incredible journey of growth and evolution. You're amazing, and this healing is gonna set you free.
SPEAKER_03Wow, great. I'm I'm really I'm very grateful for this conversation because I I don't really think about shame very much. And I think most of us don't, but when we do think about it, it brings up so much. There's so much that comes up um within ourselves and then within our relationships with other people, and we realize what sensitive, fragile creatures we are, that we could put ourselves in these states of shame and not allow us to come out of it. Um, so it's a very, it's a very powerful influence in our human nature. Um, so thanks for allowing me to have this conversation with everyone. And I hope everyone out there is has you know benefit from us sharing this.
SPEAKER_04Thank you, Linda, for leading us today. Thank you, um, all of our participants, Sarice, Banya, and Joan. I really appreci appreciate your candor with this difficult and challenging topic.