The Channel
I created this podcast so that I could talk with artists about their creative process, where they find and how they access their creativity.
I'm particularly interested in the idea of channeling and how the artist becomes a vessel through which their ideas are channeled.
The Channel
The Channel - Episode 1 - Don't Sweat the Technique with Nico Berry
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In this episode I sit down with Nico Berry http://nicoberry.com/
Nico Berry is a San Francisco based muralist with over 25 years of experience designing and creating large-scale community and commercial murals.
Declaring at age 8 that he was going to be an artist, Nico has gone on to fulfill that dream.
We discuss graffiti, freestyle rapping, Nico's Dreamer of Dreams Mural https://www.dreamersofdreamsmural.com/ and much more.
Have a listen and let me know what you think!
Hello and welcome to the channel podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm so grateful that you're here. I am your host, Maya Taub. I created this podcast so that I could talk to artists and creative people about their creative process, where they find and how they access creativity. I'm particularly interested in the idea of where their ideas come from and how the artist becomes a channel for their art. I've heard artists say that something was channeled through them, that they didn't create it. It just came through their vessel, if you will. Or perhaps they didn't create it alone, that there's a co-creative, co-collaborative process at play. I also have my own experience of channeling, which I'm hoping to be able to practice and play with in these conversations. Welcome to episode one of the channel podcast. I am so excited that you're here to share in this conversation that I had with my first guest. And my hope for you is that you have as much fun listening to our conversation as I had having this conversation. My first guest is Nico Berry, and Nico's bio speaks volumes about him. So I'm going to read it. Nico Berry is a San Francisco-based muralist with over 20 years of experience designing and creating large-scale community and commercial murals. He was awarded the 2023-2024 California Arts Council Youth Speak to Individual Artist Fellowship in the Established Artist category. Nico's public artwork primarily deals with themes of community, cultural identity, social justice, and the intersection between the urban, natural, and human environments. His goal is to explore the relationship between residents, both human and non-human, long-established and recent arrivals, their environment, and their community while inspiring conversation and beautifying neighborhoods. Many of his murals have been designed with input from communities they are a part of, often with the help of local elementary and high school students, elected representatives, and residents. Born and raised on the south side of Chicago, Nico was drawn to visual art at an early age, declaring to his parents at eight years old that he was going to be an artist when he grew up. He became deeply involved with skateboarding and graffiti art in high school and moved to San Francisco in 1996 to pursue those passions. In 1996, he began working at Thrasher Skateboarding Magazine as a designer, writer, and illustrator. And he later served as the magazine's art director. He's worked as a freelance art director and graphic designer in New York and San Francisco for a wide variety of clients from Timberland Boots, Roadrunner Records, and Kid Robot to the Source Magazine and Mecca Clothing. Nico now does public art full-time and has painted numerous high-profile murals around the Bay Area and around the world. And as if that wasn't enough, in addition to that very impressive bio, Nico is perhaps more importantly an incredibly kind, generous, gracious friend, father, husband, and just all around super cute, cool human being. And I think that one of my favorite qualities of Nico, well, I have several because Nico and I have now recruited more than a month. Being a newbie at this, I'm learning a lot along the way. And um, so Nico and I have recorded a podcast that disappeared into the ether. So I've really gotten to know Nico. And um I think my favorite quality about Nico, you, Nico, is your authenticity. I just feel like you're such a unique human and you're really not trying to be anybody else, and you're just staying in your lane and doing your thing and doing it really well. And yeah, it's just it's been a delight to get to know you better. And I feel like one of the things, another thing that is just a cool thing about you is you have so many stories. Every time we talk, like there's a new thing that I'm like, wow, Nico did that too. Like Nico, Nico did that. Um, and the last thing that I'll say before I let Niko say some words is um that Nico and I met about 10 years ago. And um our children are BFFs. So we've known each other, our kids met in um middle school, and then they stayed friends through high school and they're still best friends. And um, yeah, so that's how we know each other. So yeah, Nico, I wanted to ask you when I say the word channeling, kind of as you know it, as we speak it, tell me what comes up for you and like if you have an experience in mind, or yeah, just what what comes up for you when I say that in regards to your art.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Um, and thanks for all those really nice words. That's really nice to hear. A little overwhelming, but really nice to hear.
SPEAKER_02Um overwhelm you. It's it's okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, so channeling, what yeah, when I hear channeling, well, I remember when you first said something to me about it, the first thing that came to mind was was freestyle rapping, which is not something that I do these days at all and haven't done for a long time. But I was like really did a lot in sort of high school and college age. Just that real sense of like something coming through you and where you where there's no consciousness or like premeditatedness about it. Um, and that was kind of the first thing that that sort of jumped to mind. But then I think the other thing like that we talked about before was like like sort of just being in the flow state of of of creating. And I feel like that most often happens for me when I'm doing like graffiti style art. Sort of I'm just like thinking about the audience, like graffiti art is like really kind of can be misunderstood or sort of like pigeon-hold into something. I'm not talking about like just tagging, but doing full color pieces that are usually in an uh uncommissioned location.
SPEAKER_02Um that's a nice way of putting it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, that's like kind of where I'm like I feel like it there's something about the this combination of like the time constraints and sort of like all the constraints of being in an uncommissioned location, you know, and having a certain amount of time to do something, like really concentrates sort of the experience, and then it like allows me to get into this sort of flow state. And and like even so, like, even last night I went, I went out painting last night um with a friend of mine, and um and I had a sketch with me, like a lot of times, usually I like to bring a sketch for like graffiti style piece. And so graffiti style piece, they're like lettering-based pieces, and I always write the same word over and over. I mean, I've I write true 54, that's my graffiti name, and there's a whole story behind that. I don't know if you want to get into that right now.
SPEAKER_02I do, I do, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, so like so, real quick, when I was 19 or 20 years old, I I picked that name true and true 54 because there's like what you were saying, like authenticity is really important to me, and it always has been. And so that name true appealed to me, and sort of this idea, like I mean, most graffiti writers pick a name, you know, not their birth name, like to write. And I picked true because I was like drawn to the authenticity, and then the true 54. There's like a sort of a tradition in in like old school New York graffiti from the 60s and 70s where people would put their name, their street number after their name. So the most famous example is probably Taki 187 who or 183. Oh god, I just had a brain. I think it's 183. Sorry. Um, Taki 183. He he lived on 183rd in in Washington Heights in Manhattan, and and he went all over the city as a delivery guy, and he kind of became like one of the first famous graffiti writers because the New York Times did an article about him. Like, who is Taki 183? So that sort of tradition appealed to me of like that, yeah, you know, putting the street, and I grew up on 54th Street in Chicago, and I'm like very proud of like being a Southside Chicago person, you know. So I'm like, and my neighborhood of Hyde Park is dear near and dear to me. So um, so that's kind of where the True54 came from. But I was saying when I was painting last night, I brought a sketch with me, which I like to bring a sketch. A lot of graffiti writers, when you're doing a piece, like a full-on, like multicolor kind of thing of your name, like some people kind of like look down on on bringing a sketch because they like you're just supposed to do it. Yeah, because you're supposed to be in like you're supposed to kind of channel it, like you're supposed to be in the flow, right? But sometimes that leads to like doing kind of the same thing over and over again, maybe with just different colors or different, you know, tiny little tweaks or whatever, and it gets boring like pretty quick for me, honestly. Um, I mean, it really becomes about the experience, not the piece itself. And for me, I'm like really interested in I mean, I've written true and like complicated piece letters, like literally thousands of times. Wow.
SPEAKER_02Um, you know, I've been and everyone is like a little bit different, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And everyone is different, and that's like really important to me. I'd never I'd never want to do the same piece twice. It's like um so anyway, so I brought the sketch last night because I was I was waiting for my friend, and and and I wasn't actually gonna bring a sketch because I've been painting enough recently that I've not needed to bring a sketch, and I've been able to just cook kind of go with one idea and then expand on that idea, like being in the moment, like sort of being in the flow. But last night I was like, Oh, I'm gonna bring a sketch, even because the previous time when I went painting, it took me much longer to sort of like get to a place where I was happy with what the initial sketch looked like. And so I was like, you know what, I gotta wait a couple hours for my friend anyway. I'm gonna just draw something up so that'll be that much quicker when I get there, kind of. And then of course I ended up it sort of feels like the sketch, but being there in the moment, like in the flow of the in the sort of in the channel of it. Also dealing with this was painted on a train, and so when you're painting on a train, like you have to deal with like you don't want to go over the reporting numbers for the like on a freight train, right? There's like reporting numbers, and and this is all kind of inside baseball stuff, but like to have your piece run longer on freight trains. Like generally, the freight train companies don't care that much about the pieces on the train, like they don't seem to really mind at all. And I've talked to workers and they're like, Yeah, we don't care. As long as you don't mess up all the reporting marks, right, and paint over the paint over the numbers and paint over the you know, you know, push put the jack here, or like you know, there's all these little you know, load limit and and all these like numbers that are on the side of a train, and those are important for the workers, right? So as long as you respect those numbers and go around them, then they don't mind then they don't mind. Yeah, they probably like it, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, they totally do, and a lot of them like take pictures and like you know, they they love it. So the point of that is that sometimes you don't know what train you're gonna get, right? And you don't and the numbers can be in different places and different training types of training. There's like so many different types of you know, boxcars and different types of cars. So so there is an element of like train painting that you have to be in the moment, right? Because you don't know what you're gonna get.
SPEAKER_02And you also have to know all of that before going into it. Like, I mean, I idea, like I would imagine that people who are just sort of out there tagging that don't know that they could go over those things and you know, yep.
SPEAKER_00And and that happens all the time. And they'll do dumb stuff like leave, you know, they'll m blow up the spot, like they'll mess up the spot by like leaving cans there or like dripping on the on the on the rocks and like just like you should be disrespectful to the I mean it's kind of crazy because you're doing you know, you're not supposed to be there in the first place, but there is kind of like an honor among thieves kind of thing. Like like you really you if you respect the spot, like it pays you back, right? Like you can go there. Totally.
SPEAKER_02And I really like that that what you just said about honor among thieves, like I feel like that is from what you've shared with me. One of the things that I I think is really interesting is that like when you go, you've said that sort of the most quote unquote, and this might be my word, but um dangerous part is the getting in and out. Like once you're there, you're like safe.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's that you don't want to be seen coming or going. But once you're in the spot, then you're kind of like you're you're covered for some period of time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for the most part. Yeah, you're like, yeah, that's yeah, the yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Definitely the most you're most likely to get caught entering or leaving, like, you know, the spot kind of and you've said that sometimes there will be someone there who will like let you in or like you know, sort of turn the other way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there, yeah. Sometimes there, yeah, like in the case of like freight train painting, sometimes I mean I don't want to like ruin any workers' jobs. Sorry, I don't want to ruin any workers' jobs either. I mean it's just kind of fascinating to me. It is kind of fascinating, yeah. Sometimes workers are just like, yeah, just like just stay out of our way. Like, don't get in the way of my like I'm trying to work right now. Right. Like, don't get in the way of my work, and you're fine. I know I'm not gonna like I know I'm not gonna be able to stop you, right? So I just want you to be safe. I don't want anybody killed in my yard. Trains are are extremely dangerous. Like it is, it is not a safe place to be. It's like actually a really stupid place for me to be as like a dad and a husband and and it just you know, and all of that.
SPEAKER_02That's like part of the appeal for you, though.
SPEAKER_00That is a little bit part of the appeal.
SPEAKER_02Like it does a little danger.
SPEAKER_00It is a little dangerous, and it does give me so. I think I've been painting a lot recently, and part of that is I've been dealing with a lot of a lot of personal sort of family issues that are really stressful, and like really I just have a ton of responsibility right now to other people. I mean, I always do like I kind of define myself as a as a dad first, right? Then maybe an a husband, then maybe an artist. So responsibility is always front of mind for me, but recently, and it's even outside my nuclear family. It's like it's there's just a lot, and I've been needing, I mean, you know, I I refer to like painting often like with my friends as like spray therapy, you know, like I'm gonna like go do some I need some spray therapy like right now, which is I've been needing it. I've been needing that kind of like the dangerous part of that, right? Like of like, or just it's it's different than like like being in my studio where I am right now. There's a freedom, right? And a and a lack of responsibility. I can come here and I can feel safe to to create or or work or whatever. Somehow being out in the world and and doing something. I don't know, it just adds another layer that's like more and I think part of it is maybe just like it's taking me back to a younger self before I had kids, before I mean I'm 51 years old, you know, and like I've been doing I've been doing this since I was 17 or something like that, you know, like pretty actively with ups and downs. I mean, and it takes me back to that, like sort of being a kid and like not having to think about, you know, I get a few hours, a little window for a few hours where I can just think about like how the R and the U can like talk to each other the most harmonic harmoniously, you know, or like how I can get this part of the U to connect to the R, like last night. Like that's one way I went off of the sketch yesterday. Like I had the sort of sketch of an R and a U, and I kind of like did them similar, but then I didn't like the way I had it, had them connecting to each other. And then it was just kind of like oh no, I don't want to do what I have on the sketch here. What the way I was connecting them on the pencil, it's like I can now when it's on a train and I'm like sketching it out, I can see a whole different way that feels like way better for this place too, kind of, you know. Um that's kind of being in that sort of moment, you know, and reading the it sounds like it sounds more like fancy than than it really is, but it's like reading the environment. Like it's like uh my I have a um my friend Jack who um like we've kind of drifted apart, but I I've known him since we were really young, and he was always more interested in the location than the graffiti itself. Like he was a really prominent graffiti writer, but for him even more so than me, it was like really about the moment, like the the act of creation, and then like having it be in this cool spot, kind of, you know.
SPEAKER_02But for him, it was more about the spot.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for him it was more about the spot. Like he was, yeah. I mean, he was into the lettering, but like I was always more technical, or like I was more like I I love solving the problem of writing these letters in a different way every time. Like that's fat that's like amazingly still fascinating to me, like 33 years, 34 years later.
SPEAKER_02Which is kind of amazing that you're writing. I know you do a lot of other things besides this feeding, yeah, but that it's still so fascinating and for you after the you know five thousand five thousandth time.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah, it's yeah, it is kind of yeah, it is kind of crazy, and I do marvel at that sometimes. And I'm like, okay, this is there, this is finite, like this is gonna end. Like, I'm gonna get bored with it. And I do get bored and it goes up and down, you know, but like of course, like anything. Yeah, but like anything. I mean, I think like part of like every artist, every like creative person that I know, I mean, everyone is creative, but every person that thinks of themselves as an artist or maybe has been told that they're an artist, I feel like does have this it's not perfectionism, but like a drive to like keep pushing closer to perfection with something. You know, it's like every time like I'm like like just being your own harshest critic, like these kind of cliches that are like really true. Like, like it's like the the drive to do it is not necessarily about outside external validation. External validation, it's about like getting it to this point, you know. Like I'm like, oh, like that E is like dope, but I could make it better if I had just switched that angle a little bit more, you know, and then the next time maybe there's like something else that, you know, and it's like that internal push. I think that's even part of the channeling thing, right? Like, I think when you're looking just for external validation, and of course we're all looking for that, you know, like graffiti writers, you're put you're writing your fucking name, you know what I mean? Like, like it's like, look at me. Yeah, pay attention to me. Yeah, pay attention to me. But there is this other element and you're doing it for your friends too. It's not you're not asking like just the world, you know, you're doing it for the other for the rest of your community. But there is something about that where it's like, look, I'm getting closer to um to and it sounds like hokey as soon as I say it, but it like closer to like that. Connecting to something bigger. Like like than than yourself. It's like, oh, the like for me, like, like creating art is like really about connecting with other people, right? But the rest of and and higher power and like everybody, right? Like everything connecting with the universe, like let's let's say. Right. I mean, that's really what it is about for me. I mean on a macro level.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You know? Um and I think it's like somehow, just as I'm talking about it right now, there's some way that it feels like getting the lettering to this like really harmonious place where it's like they'll each letter's flowing into each other and it just it looks good and right, you know. That it feels like somehow connecting to something um something bigger, or you know, or just the rest of everything in a way.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's like if you're in flow with the piece of art that you're making, then it sort of flows out from there and reaches other people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, it's like there's something that people can that that is like it's that thing you can't put your finger on, right? That makes it that much better. Yeah, like what is it? It's like, okay, why is Nina Simone's voice like so amazing? Right. Like I can't put my finger on like what it is about. Yeah, I can't name like why it why when she sings Baltimore, does it hit me so much harder than um what's his name? The other guy who wrote it, like like, you know, like or or or whatever. Like it's there's just something where it's like, wow, there's like some unknowable thing about or for me, it feels unknowable.
SPEAKER_02It's ineffable.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I wonder, um, I mean, I think that is probably partly why I'm so fascinated with this idea of channeling, because there is a way that it's sort of like it's hard to describe in words what's actually happening to you when you get into that flow state or when you feel that sense that experience of harmony, or like, you know, and yet it's fascinating. And so, like, you I want you to name it, you know, like I want to be able to define it. And I think it's it seems like it's so individual and it's also so universal, like this experience of getting into a flow state or getting a channel. And one of the things that you said earlier that I thought was so interesting was that you brought the skin attitude. And that's sort of frowned upon in the um tagging community because you're supposed to be in flow. But like, is there a name for that? Like, do graffiti artists have, like I'm calling it channeling, but is there a name for just being, is it like freestyling?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you want to be f able to freestyle. I mean, it's kind of like it's kind of a macho thing, I would say, in graffiti. It's like kind of like this kind of like this macho bullshit, like, oh yeah, that's like you're whack, like you're you're not, you're not doing it enough to be able to do it without a sketch, right? And then you're like not, which is so not true. Which is not which is not true. Yeah, like in my case, like nobody is gonna say, oh no, you've never like you're a you're a beginner. Right. No, I've been writing, you know, I've been doing this for like longer than most of the people I'm banning with have been alive, like um, or not most, but many of them. Yeah. Um you're on the older end of the spectrum. Definitely on the older end of the spectrum. Although I was like saying to my friend the other day, I was like, oh man, like I'm feeling like I'm like getting so old, like this is coming to an end. And he was like, Oh no, I just did a piece with Zephyr, and he's 64, so you still got a long time.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, you got a long time to go, Nico. Yeah, I was like, okay, anytime soon.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, exactly. But Zephyr is like, you know, but he was like he's made his living off of off of doing this. I mean, off of doing graffiti, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00He was, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I'm curious, like you started out with the freestyle rapping, and I know that's not something that you do now, but do you remember? Because to me, that seems just like how do the words come through you if you haven't thought them, or like like what was that experience?
SPEAKER_00I mean, it it really is amazing. Anyone who's ever freestyle rapped will tell you it's like pretty trippy magical. Yeah, it's kind of trippy. Like, it's like kind of yeah, it's like, whoa, where did that come from? There is something like that, you know. I'm sure there's like some scientists that study brains that have names for these kind of things, but like when I was eight years old, we lived in France for a school year and I learned French like like fluently. Oh wow when I was eight, right? And then I didn't keep it up really. You know, I went back to France when I was 12, and then I I went to Madagascar and like I had to speak French there, and like like I've spoken, I can still speak French a little bit, right? Like I can talk, but when I'm in that, like I went to France a few years ago, a number of years ago, and I was having a conversation with somebody, and I was like, Well, how did I know that word? Like, how did I know that word? And they just like started coming through me in that same kind of way, and it's like that language was like somewhere in in my brain, you know, and even I still had access to it, and there's like you know, and I I can speak Spanish some too, like I took Spanish in school, and then there's like you know, Spanish and French are both romance languages, so they're like so much overlap, and that that kind of screws up my French sometimes, and my French screws up my Spanish a little bit, you know, because neither of them I'm like that good at, yeah. But it doesn't happen as much with Spanish, but with French, it definitely happens, I think, because I had it so good when I was young.
SPEAKER_02And because you were young, and it sounds like you were also like immersed in the language, and so you just you had to learn it.
SPEAKER_00Totally, totally, yeah. And uh, yeah, I mean, I was in a French school and like it was full on immersion, full on immersion, but the way that the word just in that conversation, the way the words would come out is the same with freestyle rapping, where it's just like I mean, it is it's like an altered state almost, you know. It is almost an altered state where it's just coming through, and there's ways like like I've never done drugs at all or like alcohol, like I'm like, and there's lots of reasons for this, which I'm not gonna go into, but like, but my whole life I've been like totally sober, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, which is so unusual, I think, for any adult, yeah, right, particularly an artist, you know, like such a correlation. Like, I know you've said that like when you were younger, like everybody would be smoking blunts and you wouldn't. I mean, maybe you're getting a little contact high, but like yeah, maybe, yeah, but I was yeah, no, no, definitely not. It's just such a part of the culture, right?
SPEAKER_00Exactly, yeah. And especially, I mean, man, especially it in the sort of like mid-90s, it was like and like skateboarding in hip-hop, like and skateboarding, like it was fully part of, I mean, it still is, you know, but it was, I mean, it always has been. But and I was just referencing that to say, like, I think that functions for many, many rappers, I would say most rappers, as an easy access, right? Like intoxicants of some point. It doesn't have to be weed, it could be alcohol for people or like uh uh syrup, you know. Like I mean, it could be like I mean, like you know, like like like illegal cough syrup, you know, or or it could be all these, you know, or cocaine, or who knows, like what people are using, right? Just like I heard a crazy story about one of my friends who had worked with a producer. I don't really want to mention him because I don't want to speak, he's he's passed away now, but like he he was like a pretty big name rapper and producer back in the day. And my friend was like, Oh, hey, you haven't been doing stuff, but I just started working on like some tracks recently. Do you want to go in the studio with me? And he was like, No, man, I can't because because I I can't go to the studio without smoking crack. Like, literally smoking crack. He was like, That's like that was his way of creating of getting into that state, right? And it's like that flow state, like there is so I have this weird relationship with it where I'm like, you know, like where I'm like, oh, it's a it's a shortcut, it's like cheating almost, you know, like like I'm not gonna do that because that's like cheating. I want to get to it like the the pure way, like that's like that, yeah. Like you're saying this authenticity that I like really crave. That's one of the things that maybe has kept me sober all this time in a way. So interesting, yeah, and kept you like true. Yeah, kept me true. Like, oh no, I'm not gonna take that shortcut, you know. I'm gonna just I'm gonna just I'm gonna get there, get there on my own, you know? Yeah, yeah. And and I'm sure there's all kinds of factors that have caused that for for me, but like, yeah, um, but that is definitely a a thing, and then sometimes I'm like, you know, yeah, but it's not really a shortcut, it's like it's just access for them, and like why am I being so judgmental? You know, like Jimi Hendrix, the greatest guitarist of all time, was high always, you know what I mean? Right, like and he gave us this amazing stuff, yeah. You know, like most artists, like especially musical artists now, like most artists gave us these wonderful gifts thanks to these drugs in some small, some small part, you know. Like, I'm not trying to take away from anybody's like like real talents, you know, and hard work, but that was a factor, that's been a factor for for so many artists, and so many, and and I think it is a way of accessing that, yeah. Or like turning off part of your brain, and somehow, you know, like it's like I've done some meditation and like this idea of like the monkey mind, like that people may be might be familiar to people, you know, of like turning off the monkey mind and and those like that internal voice that's like taking you out of that over and over again. There it's like judging you and critiquing you and telling you that you suck, and yeah, yeah, and that it's like yeah, there's some way of like that, like you know, like the the drugs are or intoxicants are a way of like turning that off like quickly and easily and allowing you to get to that place. Um I haven't and I haven't allowed myself to to do that on some level, which is I don't, you know. That's a that's a struggle that I've always had, like sort of internally, as like I mean not always, but I said I would say especially more recently of like, why am I being so judgmental of this?
SPEAKER_02Like which is interesting because like I haven't heard you talk about the judgment so much because you're friends with all those, like those are those are your people, those are the people.
SPEAKER_00Those are definitely my people, yeah. And I don't feel judgmental of my friends in that way. It's a complicated relationship that I have with drugs and alcohol.
SPEAKER_02Well, and it's you, it's your relationship with them or lack thereof, you know, your relationship with them and your choice not to use them as a way to get. I mean, it sounds like the the um the desired altered state is also what you're wanting, you know, like what you're desiring is an altered state. And some people are getting it through drugs and alcohol, but you're trying to find that within that. But everybody's looking for the same thing, you know, like what I'm talking about, like this idea of channeling or this idea of like co-creating with some other force or spirit, you know, is what everybody is looking for. And how you get there is different for every each each individual.
SPEAKER_00Right for for each person, yeah. No, totally. I think that for myself, I think I have a lot of fear of drugs and alcohol. Like they've caused me a lot of pain, especially, you know, and so I'm scared of them, right? And I know that's a motivating factor for me, like for sure. And so then when I see them like as safer, like they're like safer for some of my friends, and it allows them to do these things that they couldn't otherwise do, right? Right in a safe way, like a relatively safe way, you know? Yeah, I I there there is like like some some fear aspect of that, but but I think that I mean, I guess that fear is just getting in the way, maybe for me. And it feels like some of the experiences that I've had that really feel like that, like channeling or flow state or whatever, yeah, have come, you know, from I mean, it's just you know, it's like I'm saying like the the the having the danger aspect of of going out painting, it puts me in that in that place. It removes it, you know, it like focuses the attention in some ways and like maybe shuts out those other things, or like it takes me back to that sense of like not having responsibility. So it's like shutting out all those like responsibility parts of my brain and it allows me to kind of like it's like being back in that environment lets me get back in touch with that like safe place to just create, maybe.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and maybe also like some of the adrenaline of like getting there and it's not really safe to be there, totally that that enhances your ability to be more creative or to get into that flow state.
SPEAKER_00Totally, yeah. And then I think like even I think we've talked about this a little bit before where it's like it's harder for me. There's like for me, there's certain types of art or artistic expression or or things that I make that are accessible to me in different places and are inaccessible in other places, right? So for example, um just I I I keep going back to graffiti, but like I it's like I it's like hard for me to create something that is like really graffiti-based outside of that like outdoor sort of dangerous type of environment, you know. And it's like so in the studio, I'm not interested or feeling motivated or even able to really create the same type of work that I'm creating on a train. Yeah, yeah, you know, and even on a train versus a wall, you know, or like a legal wall versus a train, you know, or a illegal wall. It's like a different, it's like actually it even though they might, you know, say the same letters and look kind of similar, like it doesn't have the same feeling or satisfaction for me. And then like murals is a is another a whole other type of thing, right? That I also can't access as well in the studio, you know, because when I'm doing murals, like commissioned murals, right? Which I'm like, I should get back to that because that's like what I do professionally or whatever.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and there's like a there's quite a few murals around the Bay Area that are yours, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And the and I'm like very proud of them, you know, like I mean, not yeah, like, you know, pretty much all of them, like, yeah, all of them I'm proud of, and there's a way that like those have that same aspect of like having a sketch and then being different on the wall, too. I guess I'm like kind of like positing in my mind that that is like that is like the like the act of making it on site, like at scale, like full body, you know, gives it something different than when I'm creating the sketch. Usually I'm creating the sketch on the computer, right? Like, like, like I may, I I may draw something on paper and then scan it in and then trace it in the computer and then start adding colors, and I'm like assembling murals like on the computer almost.
SPEAKER_02Which is so different than that, yeah, which is so different.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I'm actually interestingly, I'm like just noticing right now, I never do that with graffiti pieces. Like I almost always draw it on paper, like a sketch on paper. I don't do a sketch in the computer, and I don't do the whole sketch in the computer or the mural, but a lot of it because well, part of that is because there's a client, you know, on right. There's always like somebody who needs to see it first, right? And it needs to be got yours, yeah, and people don't have imagination, right? Or they don't have the same imagination as you, and you want them to see what you are seeing. So the sketch for a mural needs to be pretty close to what the finished thing is, because I can't trust people to like take that leap with me, like they don't necessarily have it, you know. Like I can't be like, oh, well, you know, it's gonna be like this, but it's gonna be, but you know, when it's really big, like you know, I'd need to give it to them. Right. You got it. Like it doesn't look that great here, but when it's on the wall, trust me, it's gonna be big. Yeah, that doesn't usually work, especially if they're paying you a bunch of money to do it, right? Right. I mean, but I was I guess what I was getting at is like there is a way that the sketch changes once it gets on the wall. Like I'm thinking of the of the dreamer's mural, which is like the biggest one that I've done recently that I'm like really proud of that we've we've talked to about.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, can you tell people what that is? Because I think that's an incredible that's just encapsulates, I feel like, so much of who you are and like what you do and who you support and your activism, and just like yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that okay, so this it's called the Dreamers of the Dreamers of Dreams mural, and it's it's a mural honoring arts educators in the San Francisco public schools, and there's actually a website for it, which is dreamersofdreams mural.com, which has more information on there if people want to read about it. But it is essentially there's like six large-scale portraits of six um arts educators who have all worked in the San Francisco public schools in some respect, many of them at the School of the Arts, but they're actually from the whole district.
SPEAKER_02Your kids went to the world. Which is where both of my kids had one goes there and one went there, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then in fact, super involved in the school.
SPEAKER_00I mean, you really yeah, I've been involved in the school, and actually the mural wasn't so the mural, if there's portraits of these six educators when I was creating the sketch for the mural. Uh I mean, it was kind of like a probably four and a half year process for that wow to happen. Yeah, and I mean, really, it was like three years of trying to figure out where it was gonna be, and then what and then like a year and a half of like of like where in the city, like where you could find the the property, yeah, where I could find a property, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So this yeah, because it's a huge mural, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's it this mural, it's like 16 feet tall by about 70 feet long, so it's really big. Yeah, um, so my oldest kid, Elliot Simone, he was in the world music program at San Francisco School, and the director of the San Francisco School is this woman, Monina Cervoni, who is amazing. I love Monina, like what she does for the kids is like really incredible. She just creates this really amazing community, and she has this same outlook that that is really close to my heart of like that everyone has potential to be an artist.
SPEAKER_02Like, everyone is an artist, everyone can access everyone has creativity inside of that.
SPEAKER_00Everyone has creativity inside of that, and all these kids, like, you know, they there is there's a there's an aspect of my mural where there's a the sort of like a background part of it is a outer space. It's like black and there's like stars, and it's and that is speaking to this this part of it that I love about Monina and all of these. Teachers, all of the educators in this, like have an element of this. And Ruth Isawa, the uh who was the founder, one of the co-founders of the School of the Arts, and an amazing San Francisco artist who's now passed away. She totally had this too. It's like the uh the endless potential, the infinite potential, right? Like all like that, like kid, there's infinite potential in these kids. Like kids, you know, in humans, but especially in kids. And it's like it's something that's like really important to me to not squash that if in kids, it gets so squashed in our like capitalistic, like fucking like grind them out society, you know. Totally.
SPEAKER_02And if you can like catch it before they get, you know, like yeah, yeah, before they get it. Before they have to like get into the world and make money and you know, grind.
SPEAKER_00Totally, yeah. And so so what I saw in Monina, like it was when Ellie was uh he was a junior actually, and there was a at the end of the year, she would do Monina would do a ceremony where the seniors would sort of get their get love from the rest of the community, like the rest of the world music community, and their parents would come and then they and they would say something about Monina or about about world music, and then the you know the younger students would play a song for the older students. It was just like and and like I'm like so moved every time I think about it. It's crazy. Like I've talked about it so many times, and I've got every time it like every time, yeah. Yeah, it just hits me so deep. Like it's just like so beautiful the way these kids feel so accepted by this community is uh amazing. And and I was just really struck that year. It was such a diverse group of kids, you know, like all races, all economic abstraction, like all learning styles or you know, neurodiversion and every every way, you know, every like and it was you know a small group of kids, but it was just like this beautiful mix of kids, and they all felt at home there. And they all beautiful, like they all thrived in that environment, you know. Um and I was just I was so moved, I was like, oh my god, I have to do a mural for money. And I was like, I need to like I just need to put her on the wall, like I just need to celebrate this. Yeah, like this is so important, like this is so I just felt like this is such an important thing for the world, like for these kids to be celebrated in this way and to feel their potential, like this infinite, like to feel safe to just be able to do and be able to feel accomplishment around that too, you know. Like these are kids who maybe like struggled in other subjects or had problems at home or whatever, you know, that was hard for them, you know. And even if like things weren't as hard as maybe they are for other kids, like there were things that were hard for them personally, but they felt safe. Safe.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I this this my podcast is never going to be um video, but if you guys could see Nico, he's like his eyes are welling up and like clearly just so moved by this. And I've been to many soda performances and particularly in world music, and you know, you can feel the love that all of the students have for Monina and the love that she has for them, and just the like the outpouring of love and support from the community. Like everyone in the audience is like yelling people's names and shouting people out, and like, you know, it's like a celebration of these young adult artistic capacity, and then Monina being like the mother of that all, you know, like she is an eternal presence that allows for the safety and the environment for them to allow their creativity to come out, you know. And I feel like that is what you are honoring, you know, in this yeah, no, that's exactly what I'm honoring.
SPEAKER_00And it is exactly what I was honoring. And I and at the time I was reading about Ruth Sowa, I never had the chance to meet her before she passed, but like she co-founded that school. And she, you know, I was reading about how she was there, you know, she was a gardener, right? And there's a lot, if if you've sort of read about her, like that's like really part of something, you know, deeper for her and tending sort of the garden. And and she would come back to the school when she had long retired and was like still, you know, doing the gardening around the school. And she it's just like this nurturing, safe environment that she created, right? So I wanted to somehow honor like these two powerhouse badass women that were doing this amazing, beautiful work, right? And not to mention, like they're both like women of color, yeah.
SPEAKER_02As are most of the people, with the exception of one, right? On the mural.
SPEAKER_00And that was definitely important to me. I mean, I like race and you know, gender and and community is like really important. It's like a really important sort of part of of what for for public art for me, you know. Like I it's something that I try to always keep at the front of mind, especially as a white man. Like it's like it feels like it feels like important to me. Um you know, I know it's not important for everybody, but for me it it really feels vital. Um and so that so even just the idea of like putting giant uh portraits of like women of color like in the environment where these women have done so much for our community, right? Like these all of these educators have done so much for our kids and for us. Like to somehow be able to give them that space back just felt like really important and and exciting, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and the other thing I remember you saying about that particular mural was that is the first mural that you did with a paintbrush, right? Yeah, with a brush with gray paint.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, usually so that the first portraits that I had done, like large-scale portraits, are really portraits at all that I had done at a brush, which is like I guess this kind of taps into the channeling thing a little bit, where so I painted this one differently than I usually um do, in that I painted the portraits themselves in the studio and on uh on this material that then got essentially glued onto the wall, and then I painted the rest of the mural around it. And so as I've made abundantly clear, like I was I'm like really passionate about I was very passionate about this project, and I wanted it was a really important to me uh to represent these people uh in a way that like people passing by, students and like former students and and just parents or just community members would be able to recognize those people like instantly and like really wanted to capture their essence. I really wanted to capture their essence like in a way, you know, which of course you always want to do that with a portrait, but like I it was a very important to me. Like, I didn't want there to be anything where you're like looking at it and being like, Oh, maybe that's uh like you what's her name? You know what I mean? I'd be like, oh my god, that's Elvia, you know, which is like like what happened, like you know, like I wanted it to be like like somebody walking down the street who like 20 years ago had Elvia as their dance teacher to be like, oh my god, that's Elvia, you know, like she's 20 years older, right? Because I took the portraits, I took actually had the photos, like took the photos now, so which is another kind of interesting thing, right? In terms of like portraiture, like when do you like you're putting this up on a wall and it and and it's gonna be there for a long ass time. Like, when do you capture these people, right? For me, it was like important. I want to capture them now, like they're beautiful always, right? Yeah, but I want them to be, I don't want them, I don't want them to be airbrushed, yeah, right? But I want them to be also like in the best light, if that makes sense. Like, I don't want to like cover like flaws, but I want them to be in the best light. So I, you know, I had to retake do multiple photo shoots with people sometimes because like the smile wasn't quite right or what and I wanted them smile, I wanted them welcoming, is what I because they were welcoming to all these students, yeah. So that was like a really important thing to capture, right? Like the actually take the photos of them also, like you I personally didn't because I'm not a great photographer, uh but and and I my plan was to have students take the photos, right? Because I was trying to keep as much student involvement as possible. Yeah, that didn't totally work out. A student did take a few of them, and then my fiscal sponsor for the mural, who ended up being also creative partners, um, because they're just awesome, were the women who run the Friends of the School of the Arts, um Suze and Anne. And so Suze is a really great photographer. So I actually ended up having Sue, like, and when the other student couldn't show up, I just was like, Hey, Suze, will you take the photos? Because you're a great photographer too, you know. And so then Suze ended up taking some of them. Yeah, and I was gonna maybe have Elliot take some, but he was like away, and and so um Elliot's an incredible artist. Yeah, yeah, no, he really is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he is. Went to soda and also just like, I mean, with the the education that they got at SFS, like around.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. All of I mean it, yeah. It's yeah, I think about my kids, and I'm like, I'm like, man, they're both like amazing artists. They're like, you know, they're both amazing visual artists, they're both amazing musicians, like all of these things.
SPEAKER_02Right. Sarah is a creative writer, and I'm sure many other creative things, but um, yeah, so I mean, your whole environment, your whole thing. Yeah, the environment, yeah, definitely which is cool because I think oftentimes, like, you know, I heard someone say the other day, and it made me so mad. She was like, Yeah, I hope my son doesn't become an artist. And I was just like, I mean, and I know people have that sentiment, but like it's cool that both of your kids committed to art given the environment. Because, you know, kids do the things that they want to go do what what their parents aren't doing. And so the fact that both of your children are still so just like I want to say committed, but it's not even just a commitment, it's just like who they are, that they're so authentically creative and artistic, and you know, totally was the environment in which they grew up.
SPEAKER_00Totally, yeah. No, it definitely is it is so exciting. It's like, yes, it worked, you know.
SPEAKER_01Totally.
SPEAKER_00But it's interesting because yeah, it didn't backfire, but it's interesting because I'm like thinking to my childhood, right? Like my dad was a physicist, and my mom is a writer, uh, like educator, and I mean, I should say educator, writer, um, in that order more. But like when I was little, we my dad was would he had collaborators on experiments from all over the world, and they would sometimes come and stay with us. I was always interacting with physicists, right? Because my dad. And I would and we'd go to conf conferences every once in a while with them, like we would travel and go somewhere.
SPEAKER_02And I was always lived in France, like is that that's why we live.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's why we went to France, yeah. Because my dad did like a uh almost year-long um many, many month experiment in the suburbs of Paris. So we moved, but I was always struck as a kid. I remember noticing like these scientists love what they do, you know. Like you hear about people that like the daily grind and like the drudgery of the of the of their office job or whatever, and and I remember noticing like these scientists just love science, you know.
SPEAKER_02That's so cool. Like, yeah, it's that, and that you, you know, that that was such a visceral experience of being around them that you could tell they love totally.
SPEAKER_00And we would make I think I remember this woman, I think she was Jordanian maybe, and she was like she sacrificed so much to be a scientist, like it was not okay for her to be you know a woman scientist in her, and and I don't know that that's necessarily true in Jordan, but in her family, it was not okay. Like she was she got married to this guy, and he wanted her to stop working and like stay home. And she was like, fuck that. Like, I love science and I'm gonna keep working. And and I was so inspired by her, remember? Like, I was pretty young too, and I was just like, wow, she's fucking badass. Like, like she loves science, like, and it actually I wanted to be a scientist for that reason, but I was always drawn to art, you know, like I was always and I was given a lot of positive reinforcement, like my whole life, you know.
SPEAKER_02Like my teachers, my art teachers loved me, like and you know, and my my showing that from a very early age, like in it, but also getting really positive feedback for what I was totally getting, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it was like, you know, and I have like three siblings, and you know, and we all drew, we all made stuff, but I feel like I would definitely get the most, and maybe I just was like the most, I just had some natural talent that maybe the other ones didn't, or or it was just I was just drawn to it, you know.
SPEAKER_02And you were getting a lot of positive feedback for that.
SPEAKER_00And I was getting a lot of five, yeah, positive feedback. But it was like it was, you know, we're talking about like that safe environment, like it was a safe place for me. Like I remember when we lived in France, for example, this is kind of a crazy story. We lived in this cul-de-sac with all scientists, um, like in these individual houses, and it was international, like people from all over the world, right? So, and I have three all there kind of collaborating around some I don't, you know, I don't know if they were all like if my dad was working with them or not, or if they were all doing different stuff at the lab, which was there, there's like a big laboratory.
SPEAKER_02Everyone was working at the like that's how they all came together. They were all working together at the lab.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah, exactly. And so, like, my oldest brother's, you know, best friend was like from Argentina, and then my other brother's friend was from you know, I I can't remember where everybody's friends were from. Yeah, but my best friend was it was a Japanese boy named Mike uh uh Maki, and me and Maki did not speak any French, and he did not speak any English, and I did not speak any Japanese, right? I mean, his mom spoke some French.
SPEAKER_02How were you guys best friends?
SPEAKER_00We were like we would we would go, I would go over to Maki's house, which was like so clean compared to our house. So I remember that, right? Because our house was like a mess. We had like three, you know, four like boys that were fucking you know messes, but but and Maki, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And did Maki have any siblings?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I don't think Maki had any siblings, and so I just remember it was quiet and it was neat, and it was like, you know, it was like so. I would go to Maki's house and we would draw like Bond designates like our like uh French comic or Belgian, French, like European comic books, and we would just look at the comic books and we would recreate the characters like we would draw them, and we would just sit together and draw, like that was what that was like a parallel play, but also like connecting exactly, yeah. Totally, yeah. And we were eight years old, you know, so it was like um, but it was, I mean, I I you know I still remember his name, Maki. It's like right there in my head, you know.
SPEAKER_02Well, and the fact that like he was your best friend and you guys didn't speak, I mean, you spoke the same language in terms of like art, but you literally speak the same language, like yeah, and and actually what I'm thinking in my mind, right?
SPEAKER_00I can picture Maki like smiling and laughing like at a drawing. Like maybe I'm making that up in my imagination.
SPEAKER_02You know, but it doesn't matter, but it doesn't matter what you remember, like that's what you took away from it. So whether it's quote unquote true or not, it's just yeah. Yeah, unintended.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I I can't remember how I got off onto that tangent.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, was it just about like Mocky and the art?
SPEAKER_00And I mean, it was definitely on well, I think it was about the scientists like loving what they do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, I think before we had talked about like the privilege of of being an artist and being, you know, like there is like a real like that's another thing that I feel like is important that I keep telling, like, I have to like keep top of mind for myself. Like, there is a privilege to being like I am so lucky to be in this place where I can be an artist, right? Like so much is taken care of for me that I can then focus on making things that I think are beautiful and interesting, you know. And there is a but I think art is like important work, yeah, but especially in terms of community building, right? Like that whole Dreamers of Dreams mural is about community building and how vital that is, right? And like the the the way that our society is like so fucked up and fractured right now, and it and everyone on all sides of the political spectrum on all sides feels like this is a crazy bad time, you know, it's except for maybe a couple billionaires, like you know, and even them, I'm sure in their heart of hearts, they know that this is shit. If they have a heart. If they have a heart, yeah. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think this is like an interesting thing that we've never um talked about. But I think, like, when you say that, that it's a privilege, I get what you're saying 100%. And at the same time, I feel like you've asked the question of like, how can my art not be self-indulgent and not be about me? Which I feel like a little bit goes with this privilege idea. Like I understand that, but I think I feel like don't question that, you know, like it's a little bit like if we all did that, like, my this is a little bit of a tangent, but my I take yoga class with this man named Neil. Shout out to Neil, he's an incredible yoga teacher. And oftentimes after, when we're like coming out of Shivasana, he'll say, like, if you are doing something that you don't like to do with all of your hours of your day, it's very hard to find joy. And you know, that's a triggering statement for people because people have responsibilities and people have kids and mortgages and house, you know, rent, whatever. Totally. But like, I think that what I'm trying to say is that if we all were doing things that we loved, this world wouldn't be in the fucked up position that it's in. And there wouldn't be so much division. And so, like, I I hear what you're saying in terms of like you don't ever want to not feel like it's a privilege because you want to be able to um not take it for granted, you know? Yeah, exactly. And at the same time, like inspire people with that. You know what I mean? I mean, you are like you are inspired, you're inspiring me. Like you inspire people all the time, but it's like, I think that's a little bit of a warped perspective that we are programmed with is that like we shouldn't be doing that. Like we should all be doing that. And yes, it should be a privilege, but like that privilege, you know, in an ideal world, which this is far from, we'd all have that privilege. Like we'd all be doing something. And what you're doing is no good. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like You're taking advantage of people along the way. And like you know, you're trying to elevate people through what you're doing. And I don't know if that if if that's if I'm if I'm articulating what I'm wanting to say, but it's No, I I I hear what you're saying.
SPEAKER_00The the the only problem with what you're saying is that it takes me down a rabbit hole of anti-capitalism.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's okay, because that's what you are all about.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I really am. Yeah, I mean, it just all it inspires to me is like, oh, late stage capitalism, this fucking sucks, you know.
SPEAKER_02Like no, it is, it's responsible for all of the horrors of the world.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And just like more, just like the insatiability that and fear, right?
SPEAKER_00Like for me, fear is underneath it all too, right? Like, fear is such a motivator. I think yeah, like it's so connected to fear, like like all of these things that are like pushing each other away. It's like what I was saying about like fear getting in the way for me. Like fear gets in between the like people, yeah. You know, and uh you can't access these other people, like the fear, and it's like there's a vulnerability in like I feel weird like talking about myself like this, but there is a vulnerability uh for me of like uh doing the mural uh I guess like like so an important thing for like about public art. I shouldn't feel weird about this because I feel really strongly about this. Like public art is for the public, right? Yeah, yeah. Like it is for the public, it is like really like it is for the community, it is not for the artist. Like there is it is public art, right? The artist it takes the artist, uh you know, the the person to make it and synthesize some of this stuff into something that then other people can understand and it can translate to many people. But like there's a vulnerability or like of like like you like I really it feels important to me to try to get out of the way. Yeah, like it's different than studio art, right? Where studio art you're like really creating for I've been thinking about this a lot recently, actually, like because I've been in the studio and I've been having trouble getting stuff done here because I've been feeling like like I'm just making it for myself or this little bubble, you know, whereas like public art feels so much more important because it's like because of the community aspect of it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, and so much of your particular public art is a statement of your activism and your beliefs and your um just like everything that you stand for. And I think you know, the other question that is the same question, but the question that you've kind of asked me is like, how can this art not be about me? You know what I mean? Like you are the artist, and so it is inherently about you, right? But in the same way that you're saying, like, how do you get out of the way and art be for the greater good of society and you know, however, people use it.
SPEAKER_00I mean I mean, an interesting thing about that is like it does take a certain it's like comes back to the privilege thing a little bit, right? Because for me, like I'm in a privileged position where I can like be safe and not have to make my art for sale, right? Like I we are in this capitalistic society, right? And artists have to eat. Yeah, and if the if you're gonna do all of your work, like you're gonna, you know, and I do not begrudge any artist for like selling their work, you know, like of course, and I would love to sell work for lots of money, you know. But I am in a position where I'm like, oh, I'm gonna take this job that is saying something for a lot of people that doesn't necessarily pay as much. Like, I might not be able to pay my rent with that job, you know, but it feels like a really important thing, and I have enough support from my like right.
SPEAKER_02So you do have the privilege to be able to choose.
SPEAKER_00So I do have the privilege to be able to choose, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, which is a an important thing. Yeah, absolutely. Not everybody can do that, yeah, yeah. Not every artist can do that, not every human can do that in terms of their work.
SPEAKER_00Totally. And I think that the this is like a tangent thing, but I like the capitalism thing, like it's it's weird because it's like where is that line where the safety is, and it's in different places for different people, like how you know how much. Like, I hate like getting down to like quantifying like in in numbers, but it is like there is kind of where is that line where there's safety and you're still doing something that's important, and uh or like when is it crossover into the greed territory kind of or something, you know? Right, um, and it's hard to know because the fear gets in the way of being able to see that again, you know, like you get and you get a certain level of comfort with a certain way of being, you know, here in America we have so many comforts, and that gets like, do we need fucking you know 50 types of tomato sauce like to make uh like pasta? No, like you know, like um right. I don't know, that's it, it feels like kind of kind of a tangent, but I it does I don't know, it takes me like it reminds me of uh like a early insight that like like that I it was it was after we lived in France, but I went back to Europe with my dad to a conference and we went to to Austria and there was another kid there with his dad, and he was Polish, and this and Poland was still behind the Iron Curtain at the time. And I remember hanging out with this kid while our dads were at the conference, and we were probably 11 or 12, and he had his mind was blown by Europe because he was like talking about that exact thing of like there's so many different cars. There's like you can go to a restaurant and and you have like 10 different things you can order, not just one thing.
SPEAKER_02Right, which is often I I don't know, I feel like we have too many choices. Yeah, like it it makes it so much harder to make a decision when you have that many choices.
SPEAKER_00Totally, and to bring that back around to like the channeling thing, even those constraints help me like get into that flow state better.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like the structure that it's the structure, right?
SPEAKER_00It's like the structure is required, like that's almost what's happening with the like in a freight yard, you know, like it's like all of this stuff. There is a structure, and you have to focus on just this thing because you have this time period, you know, or it's like you know, it's the the classic like blank page is much harder than like, you know, draw me a face or whatever, you know. It's like those constraints are actually really helpful in getting to that state of connection for me.
SPEAKER_02Um that does bring me to a question that I had when you were talking about, you know, like it seems like when you're doing graffiti, more traditional graffiti and the freight trains and that environment, that that puts you into a particular state that gets you to a to channeling or a flow state. But is that different when you are doing public art that is commissioned, that is fully legal and you're out there and you know anybody can look at you and know who you are? Like, does that state of flow is that different get into that state? How is that created?
SPEAKER_00It it is different. And I'm like just thinking about it right now, and I just had like a little insight, like where I was thinking, like, so with public art, I had a couple, I was like a finalist for a couple of firehouses in the East Bay, and I had two different um it was two different commissions that I was doing at the same time, and I had two completely different sketches, they were for two different towns and the firehouses at in two different places. And one of them I felt like I like totally nailed it, and I got lots of feedback saying, Yes, you totally nailed this, even though I didn't get the job ultimately, but um but I still got really great feedback about it, and then the other one was kind of like lukewarm, like, yeah, it's cool, you know.
SPEAKER_02And did you feel equally when you were creating each one, or did you feel differently?
SPEAKER_00So that's what I was trying to get to is I think I felt differently. And what I'm thinking about, like the access or whatever, is that for the one that I felt like I really connected, I toured the facility, like the existing firehouses. Like it was actually one was a fire training center and one was a fire firehouse, but I toured the existing facilities and talked to the people that work there to get ideas, and like that was part of the whole process, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you had like get a feel for each place.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, get a feel for each place because it's supposed to reflect the place, right? I mean, it's like it's that thing, and so one of them, the one that was more successful for me, I felt like I really connected with that group of people, actually, more so than the other place. And I kind of the idea came to me on the tour, actually, both times it did, but the one time it was really more about the people, and the other one was more about like the the physical space and the the equipment and you know, sort of the idea of firefighting. Like much more it was more abstract, right? And the one where I really felt like it was super successful, I was like literally connecting with the firefighters themselves and their experience as firefighters and being in this community of firefighters in the house, in the station, as well as in the community that they were serving, and they were very connected to it. And there was something about that that allowed me to like get into that space, yeah, you know, and like be like, oh, this is the way I can translate it. Like, really, it just like really came to me in like a lightning bolt, you know. And then I was able to take that and sort of, you know, I wasn't in that state the whole time, but it was but there was something about like that. And that's I mean, it's interesting. I'm like just thinking about that for the first time. It was like, oh, that was really about connecting with those people. Yeah. Whereas this other one was really about the equipment and like non-human interactions.
SPEAKER_02It was almost like the channel or the flow state came from your connection with those people that like related to them in such a way that you almost like internalized that state, and then you were able to put that down on the creation, you know, the picture that you made.
SPEAKER_00Right. And there was like details about like their experience that resonated deeply for me, you know, and then that was what allowed me to sort of create that yeah design that then resonated really deeply with other people.
SPEAKER_02Um unfortunately, the guy who got the commission resonated more deeply than well, apparently people were resonating with that firehouse, like if both of you were really connecting in that deep of a way, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It was yeah, that was a bummer. I didn't get that one, but yeah, but there is a but there is a way of like or even like creating that the dreamer's mural sketch took a really long time. Like I had the idea for years, like literally for years, I was like, oh, it's gonna be Monina's face, and it's gonna be Retha Sawa's face, and it's gonna be flowers that relate to them because of Ruth's gardening and because of growing and and you know, planting seeds, planting seeds and all of those, you know, obvious metaphors. Um but when it came time to like act, you know, and then when we sort of changed it to we opened it up to more uh educators because Ruth Osawa didn't her family felt like they didn't want her face on it. Um, and then we sort of put out a survey and then we got nominations, and and and that's how we ended up with who we ended up with. But like once I had the that raw material, it was actually really hard to get to a sketch that I was happy with. Like it took like a month of of like working pretty hard on it, actually, like going through and like to find something that resonated, like to go back to that word, resonating like with myself, where I was like, oh no, this is okay, this is like somehow saying and it was and it was also a matter of structure, right? Like I ended up having a structure, and I was like, okay, let me go back to and think about, you know, it was I kind of like went back to like classical like or like art nouveau, kind of like turn of the century feeling, like I was like, okay, flowers, I need to, and then San Francisco, psychedelia, like had huge Art Nouveau influence, and it was just like all these kind of things, but it took a while to really like synthesize that.
SPEAKER_02Totally. Totally. And like, I mean, I I have two different lines of thinking about that. One is just like being able to go to your studio and see, and I know you're talking about just even like the background of the portraits, but like to see the progression of the portraits, like you showed me sort of like on the wall what you know, and then how it progressed, and then just kind of how it all comes together and like the particular, like all of the elements that need to collide in order to get it to be. And it's a little bit how I feel about this podcast. Like I've wanted to create a podcast for years. Like I'm obsessed with podcasts, I don't listen to music anymore because I'm like you just listen to podcasts. And I had different ideas, but it wasn't, it was like certain things needed to all come together before I could figure out like, okay, this is what I want to do my podcast about, you know. But it takes to like bring something together.
SPEAKER_00Totally. Yeah, and it does, yeah. And it's and the interesting thing that I think have been thinking about a lot recently in terms of that is the like on its face, it doesn't make sense, or it's like a um, it's like discordant or or what I don't know what the word is, but little specific details that are like particular to the artist end up doing more work to bring in like a wide variety of people than like a blanket statement that seems like it should. Like I see that over and over again. I've been thinking about that a lot recently, where it's like like just like a sort of like milk toast, like bland. This is for everybody. Like, like the perfect example is like there was a mural in the mission that was painted by the community. This is like probably 10 years ago now, and I can't remember what the original mural said, but it was like painted with the community, like many, many people took part in painting it. And then a new you know, gentrification happens crazily in San Francisco at a very rapid clip, right? Um, and then the mission was having its time at that time, and somebody bought this building and painted over the mural without like saying anything to anybody, right? And you know, which was, I mean, it was there right, but it was pretty shitty and definitely like people were pissed, you know? So mural had been there like a long time already and was part of the, you know, murals become part of the community, you know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, ultimately, a good mural does, right? So then he hired a young person who didn't even live in San Francisco to do a mural that said some I can't, it said it was like big lettering that said like, be kind to each other, some shit like that. Like something like very generic planned, generic, yeah, and like and on its face, positive and good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, that's a good thing to say.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a good thing to say, and it's a good thing to do. Like it's yeah, well, by all means be good kind to each other, you know, but it did not connect.
SPEAKER_02Totally, right? What all those people did to create that mural said that without having to say it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, having like the particular type of flowers that people glow in their grow in their gardens, like in that mural speaks differently than just, you know, right, a non-specific flower, you know, or a I think about it like like in songs, you know, I'll hear and like people will reference. I think about, I mean, I'm like a person, like a rap music person, right? Um, and I think about like you know, so many raps are like there's like just these like especially like 90s raps, like ridiculous ass references, you know, to like just like reference. I'm like trying to think of a good example, but like like even like it's small and like I hate to say this because I'm anti-capitalist, but like you know, like a brand, like referencing that, but that connects to people in a way that just saying a car doesn't connect, but saying like a Honda Civic, even if you drive a a fucking Tesla, right? You know, like you have some association, you have some association, and it's like that specificity gives access that the like non-specificness doesn't. Um yeah, yeah. I don't I I don't know why I've been like why I went off on that tangent, but it it does feel like something I've been thinking a lot, like in in terms of art, and it is about connecting to people, like that's what it really is, is about connecting to the to other people.
SPEAKER_02That's what it's all about. That's what it's all about, is just connection. Yeah, it's just connection, and it's like and all the money in the world is like not giving these people connection, it's like taking them away from other people, further um amplifying their insatiability, you know, it's no amount of money can buy that kind of connection or the kind of satisfaction that you have from doing something that you love, right?
SPEAKER_00Totally, you know, like no money can that no, and it's like I remember years ago reading something about like the happiness like scale or something, and they were like rating countries on like which was the happiest, and like yeah, you know, all the one like a bunch of the ones near the top, except for the Scandinavian, no, even that even they weren't, but like there was like a bunch near the top were like poorer countries, you know. Yeah, and it was and I remember, and everybody's like, How could these like poor people be so happy? And it's like because it's really not about money that's making you happy, it's about connection and like the bonds between people, maybe in these places are closer because maybe there's not as many of these things getting in the way, separating them from each other, you know. Like you're like when you don't have a fancy car with windows that close and you're driving alone on the highway, maybe you're gonna, you know, feel closer to your fellow people and then you'll be happier.
SPEAKER_02But um, yeah, no, I mean we could I could go off on a tangent. I we do need to wrap up and I need to um so for these podcasts, one of the things that I'm trying to do is also like practice, because it is all a practice, everything is a practice, practice and play with my channeling. And so I'm having guests ask me a question, which I've kind of already spoken to, but the question that you asked me, Nico, was kind of this idea around how can my art not be self-indulgent? Or I think that's kind of accurate in them also, like, how can you, how can the art not be about you and be just about the art? And so when I originally tapped into the question, the first line that I got was don't sweat the technique, which I told you about, which was kind of ironic because I was lying in Shavasana and you had just asked me the question, and it then came to me and I knew that it was like a line from a raps on, but I didn't know it was Eric B. and Rakim, like off the top of my head. And then I was like, oh my God. Then I looked it up, you know. And I was like, oh, that's Nico's like favorite rap, you know, like that's like the OGs of rap for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. The first cassette I ever bought was Eric B. Redcom's first album. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02So, and when I that when that phrase came to me, that encapsulates how I feel about your question, is like, don't question. And I'm I don't even know if this is what they meant by don't sweat the technique. To me, it was like, don't question how you're doing it. Like you're doing it. Like you are all about community and about like having art that speaks to people and is visible to people without having to go into a gallery or a museum that costs money and you know, is available and you're representing these people who are up underrepresented. You know, teachers are underrepresented, but particularly art teachers, you know, in public schools in the Bay Area. Like there's so much that is said right there in that mural that you made. And so it's like, don't question how you're doing it, like because you're doing it. So that was sort of, you know, the message that I got. And then the other message was um, you know, that I often get like a spirit animal. And the animal that I got was a dog. What I understood about a person who carries dog medicine is that they are usually serving others or humanity in some way. And dog is a medicine that embodies the loving gentleness of best friend and the half-wild protective energy of territorial imperative. The message from dog is that you must delve deeply into your sense of service to others, which to me is just kind of like what you do. Like that Yeah, right. I mean, it does feel like pretty yeah, pretty spot on for like whether you, you know, whether that is how you relate to like dogs as an animal, but like cats like this, yeah. But that yeah, the essence of the dog.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that no, that's interesting. I mean, that totally does feel what I aspire to, even if I can't always, but definitely what I you know, and I do think I achieve it like you know, and and sometimes, you know, but it's definitely what I aspire to, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think, you know, I'm sure Nico that you are not perfect. And I'm sure if I talk to Sarah and like you do, you do have an essence of like that. I mean, I even remember when Elliot and Kayla were in middle school, and you would put like handwritten poems and notes in the Elliot's punch box. And like, I don't know, you just seem to me like you're always like, oh, and also when they were in high school and they would need a pickup late at night on a Friday, I couldn't go because I had Theo, you know, like Theo young. He was either sleeping or he certainly couldn't be left alone. And it was like Nico was bringing Kayla home, and I could always count on you. Like, I know Nico's not drinking, I know he's not smoking. Like, he's just the designated driver driving all the high school children home. So I don't know.
SPEAKER_00To me, I that is that is definitely my role.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that is definitely your role.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, the designated driver. Yeah, which is a kind of which actually could sound like crappy on one hand, but actually I kind of like the idea of being a designated driver. Like, that's a safe person who's keeping other people safe. Like safety is so important, especially right now, you know, and keeping like being able to be that person who can keep people safe. Like, what more could I want? Like, what more could I ask for? Like to keep people that I love safe, like it sounds corny, but I that's beautiful to me.
SPEAKER_02It all it's like it, yeah. What more could you ask for? Yeah, be able to keep, you know, and obviously.
SPEAKER_00That's a real blessing. Like, that's really yeah, that's nice, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and you're also like giving your children the freedom, like Elliot is in Ecuador right now, right? Right, you're keeping them safe, but you're also like letting them fly and be free and do their thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, they're awesome people, so they know they're gonna do that.
SPEAKER_02Um well, Nico, I I mean it never ceases to amaze me that here we are again, and you know, it's been almost two hours, and I've learned we're still talking and I could still talk to you. So I will definitely have you back on for round two at some point. Um podcast gets off the ground. And yeah, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00It's always yeah, yeah, my pleasure. No, it was really, it was really fun. It's always a delight. Awesome to see you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, likewise. Cool, awesome. Well, thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay, and we'll talk soon.
SPEAKER_02Okay, bye. I would like to thank my editor and original music maker, Luca Zaysati, my technical support friend Kalisha Gardeen, and everyone who loved, encouraged, and supported me in creating this podcast. And thank you, the listener, for listening.