The Channel - Episode 2-Can You Stand the Rain with Sam Shindel Spencer

Sam Shindel Spencer https://www.instagram.com/still.thinkng/?hl=en

is a published writer who lives in Temecula, California with his writing partner, a cat named Della. 

In this episode we talk about all things screenplays, writing rituals, being the proud grandson of a horse rancher and much more. 

It's a good thing I got to speak with Sam before he blows up because Sam's first screenplay, Recompense, was in the official selection at both the San Diego Movie Awards and the Panther City Film Fest. It is also quarter finalist in both the drama and action/adventure categories of the emerging screenwriter competitions, as well as a semi-finalist in the thriller category. Lastly, it was a finalist at the Bass and Belle Film Festival and Indigenous-led Western Film Festival! 

Transcript

Speaker 0:11

Hello and welcome to the channel podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm so grateful that you're here. I am your host, Maia Taub. I created this podcast so that I could talk to artists and creative people about their creative process, where they find and how they access creative space. There's a co-creative, co-collaborative process at play. I also have my own experience of channeling, which I'm hoping to be able to practice and play with in these conversations. My guest today is Sam Shindel Spencer. Sam is a published writer who lives in California. He writes for music and culture magazines in addition to being an independent contractor. He recently finished his first script, A Western, which is making the rounds in the competition circuit. Sam is the middle sibling of two wonderfully even-tempered sisters, son to a pair of sunbelt settled East Coast Jews, and steward to his writing partner, a cat named Della. Sam and I met in June of 2024 when we had the honor and privilege of co-officiating a wedding together. Sam's sister Frida married my brother, whose name is also Sam. Shout out to Sam and Frida. And at the time that Sam and I met, we I thought maybe we were gonna take that gig on the road of being like co-officiants for weddings, but that didn't work out. And um when I met Sam, I really liked you, Sam. And I just thought you were like a cool guy, like good vibes. But it was only when I started following you on Instagram that I started to be like, wow, this guy is really creative and he's an original thinker, he thinks outside the box, he's really authentic, and just like all things that I was like, how did Sam know all these things? And in fact, one night when I was at Sam and Frida's, our couple who got married, brother and sister, um, I asked them, like, how does Sam have such a vast array of knowledge of different things? Because I had read one of the articles that you had written, and I was just like, where does he get all this information? And I don't think they really gave me a straight answer, other than I was like, does he read a lot? And I think they said that you did. And so when I started thinking about this podcast, and I was kind of like, you know, looking through my internal Rolodex of like who I wanted to be on it, Sam, you were one of the people who I wanted to be on it. So I'm super duper excited that you're here and really excited to just kind of get into your creative process.

Speaker 1 3:27

Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Thank you so much for having me. That was, I want to say my the um the profile you read of me. I wrote that. So if my sit when my sisters watched this, Maya's not saying that that was me. Just I don't want to have you on the hook for that one.

Speaker 3:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I did not say anything about even-tempered sisters.

Speaker 1 3:45

Yeah, yeah, that was me.

Speaker 3:47

Okay, so the first question that I want to ask you, Sam, is about your experience of channeling. So when I say the word channeling or like the idea of channeling, tell me what that means to you and sort of like what comes up for you when you think about that.

Speaker 1 4:04

Um, the first thing that has come to mind, like the first time I had heard about that kind of process, I think it was like, you know, I'd written some stuff. I don't think I'd really fully experienced what it was like to like kind of have something flow through you. That's the way I like to describe it as like something flowing through you. Um I was I was listening to an interview with a uh rapper who is a son of a he was a son of a a South African poet, and he was describing how his favorite work and his best work came to him the easiest. The stuff that he was most proud of was stuff that he didn't have to work super hard on, or it wasn't like this like strife-filled or struggle-filled like process. And I think that kind of stuck with me. And when I started to write on my own, it was always about trying to let it something else, you know, let myself be a vessel rather than trying to force anything onto a page, I guess.

Speaker 4:56

Yeah, I love that. And when did you start writing? Like when how old were you?

Speaker 1 5:01

I mean, I I think I've always done a little bit of writing here and there. I the first time I was published was in college. Um, I was writing for I was working for our WKDU, which was our college radio news station, and there was an opportunity to write for the blog. It wasn't really no one was really using it. And I was just thought to myself, man, I could, you know, get a little published name on a website. It could be my first thing. So I did that, and then it's fired, um, you know, turned into like some interviews and that kind of a thing. And from there, um I was someone who had read the blog randomly, who was uh the editor of a sometimes magazine out of Philly, hit me up and liked my work and asked if I would write, you know, an album review. And that's kind of how it started.

Speaker 5:43

That's awesome. Yeah. And what was the first thing that you wrote that got recognized as well? Do you remember?

Speaker 1 5:51

I mean, I could go far back. Like the first I remember the first time I'd ever gotten any credit for something I wrote, I think I was in middle middle school. Yeah, middle school, and I wrote a poem. We there was a poetry contest where you could get your name published, uh, get your work published in like a collection of middle schoolers' poetry. And I wrote a poem that was about um Dirty Harry. Do you remember the movie Dirty Harry with Clint Eastwood? It's an SF classic kind of thing. Yeah. Um, I had seen it in like middle school for some reason, and it stuck with me. And I wrote a poem about the process of him catching that serial killer. And that was I won and I got my name published in a book. So that's what that was my first writing experience. And then, you know, later on when I was working for the radio station, I think it was the interview with a there was act- it's actually a funny story. I was um when I went to Philly for the first time I uh to go visit the school that I was thinking about attending to, Drexel. Um, there was a show, uh like a hip-hop show that was happening, and I told my dad, I was like, I'm gonna go to North Philly and I'm gonna go see this hip-hop show because it's like these two guys I'm a big fan of, and they're performing in someone's basement. And I went and I ended up meeting the guys and talking to them, and I kind of decided then and there that I wanted to go to school in Philly. And then years later, I think the first thing that I published on that blog was an interview with one of those two guys who came in and he did a live performance on my show, and then we had an interview afterwards.

Speaker 7:10

Oh, that's awesome! That's awesome. That's cool. Like connecting the dots. Totally, totally, yeah. So I know that you know, your most recent work is a screenplay, and it's a western, which I think is interesting because Clint Acewood was the first poem that you wrote. True. Wow. Yeah. Like I was just thinking, like, that's interesting that that is a West, he's like a Western person. For sure. And then your screenplay. And so yeah, I don't know if there was any connection there or sort of like where the Western idea comes from or yeah, I think um movies in general.

Speaker 1 7:49

Like, I'm I love I love watching movies. I think Clint Eastwood, like I think I had seen Dirty Harry before I had seen any of his westerns. But the the Western influence came a lot from my mom's father, who owned a horse ranch in in Phoenix, and he was kind of similar to me. Like he didn't grow up with any sort of western culture or anything like that, but he had like a strong affinity for it. And in his older age, he like bought a horse ranch and was a cow, you know, he was a cowboy uh in his own way, even though he didn't like grow up with it. And I think I related to that. And I love westerns, and that was kind of yeah. I think the main reason I chose to write a western first, because that was my first full ray into script writing, was um, I was thinking like, what's like the most linear, easy to write type of story or movie domain? I was like, Westerns are pretty like, you know, they're pretty black and white in most of the movies, and obviously I can play with it a little bit, but um, for my first experiment or or try at screenwriting, I think a western is like the good. It's also fun to world build within within a Western frontier type thing.

Speaker 8:48

Mm-hmm. And did you know your grandfather? Like, was he alive for much of your life?

Speaker 1 8:56

Yes and no. I think I have like a lot of or I have one specific. Oh, here's my cat, Della. Um actually he might have visited. Um yeah. Um I I don't have like a lot of memories with him. I think he passed when I was around eight years old. So I was pretty young, but I do have a very specific memory of him taking me through horseback for the first time, like around the ranch. I remember my crotch hurt so bad afterwards. That's like a very clear memory. I was like, God, yeah. So I have, but I do remember being like, this is so cool. I'm on a horse with my granddad and we're going around the mountains. And yeah, so like I and I remember his rants and his horse ringo. I have a tattoo of his horse ringo because it was just like it was a early memory for me that I wanted to hold on to. And um, yeah, it was definitely a big inspiration.

Speaker 9:41

Yeah, he really made an impression on you in like not that long of knowing him, you know, not that many experiences with him. Do you have a sense of sort of like what it was about him or like about the ranch, or like did that feel like something that was like that you just resonated with? Or were no say, like, you know, obviously you're eight when he passes away. And you probably aren't necessarily like thinking of him in the same way that you're thinking about him now when you're a screenplay writer and you're the westerns, and you know, like I'm just curious if you have any, I don't know, just like why or how he made such a big impression on you.

Speaker 1 10:33

I think at the time I started writing this, I had been laid off from my job in Philly, and I came back home to California, and my mom had moved to this kind of like, you know, where it's kind of a farm, kind of a, you know, you know, if it's like five acres of pro of avocado farms. And um I I had been watching a lot of westerns at that time, and I kind of like in my head, in the back of my head, it was like, I know my granddad was a, you know, his cowboy or sort of a cowboy, you know, and I I kind of became infatuated with it. And I think there was a part of me that when I was writing the story, it was like, man, I wish he was still alive so I could have experienced it with him and and um you know, maybe worked on the horse wrench because I was unemployed at the time, so I was like, what do I want to do with the rest of my life? What kind of career am I gonna go try to find? And there was, I think a part of it, the inspiration and sort of the connection that I have was like, W, you know, I wished I could have known him longer and I could have experienced, you know, the kind of life that he lived um and known him as an adult. And that's definitely because I'm you know hugely inspired by my mom as well. And um, she was hugely inspired by him and she talks about him all the time. And even when I told her I was gonna write a wrestler, and it was like she was always giving me little stories or tidbits about his his background and his experience with that kind of a thing. Yeah.

Speaker 11:49

And you also have a picture of him on your writing desk, like where you're yeah, where I think it's right here somewhere.

Speaker 1 11:55

Let me let me look. Yeah, there it is. That's him.

Speaker 11:59

That's I've definitely seen that picture. Does Frida also have that picture? She might, yeah, she might, yeah. I think Frida also has that in their house. Um yeah, it's a great picture. Yeah, that is a great picture. That's so cool. Yeah, I'm sure he's like smiling down on you and very proud of you. Yeah, yeah. When did you start writing the screenplay?

Speaker 1 12:21

I believe it was winter 2025.

unknown 12:24

Okay.

Speaker 1 12:24

Or maybe some no summer twenty summer 2024, and then I finished in winter 2025, excuse me.

Speaker 12:30

Okay. Yeah. And what does your practice look like of writing during that time? You know, so you're writing the screenplay and like you're at the very beginning. Like, do you write every day? Do you write on the weekends? Like, what is your process?

Speaker 1 12:45

I mean, due to my I was being unemployed. So I was like, I was totally, I was, I kind of had I had some money saved up. I could kind of, you know, my mom's been very kind and letting me stay here. So I kind of had like some freedom. So I was like, at first it was very like, I mean, I was I think I this is also a part of it, but I was still I quit smoking weed about maybe over a year ago, but I was still smoking weed at the time. So it was like I'd wake up, smoke some weed, and then I would sit down to write. And that probably was for the first like quarter of it. And a lot of that ended up getting scrapped um later on. But since I've got this didn't think it was that good. I think my right I think I could write something better than you know, because I feel when when I would get up and get stoned and then start writing immediately, and it was like I don't know how much of that was for me. I know we we talk about like channeling, but sometimes I would look back in it and I'd be like, you know, with a sober mind, and you're like, this isn't as good as I remember it being when I wrote it. Um but yeah, around somewhere in that time I I got sober and I stopped, and uh I think there was a there was a thing where I was like on a strict routine, so it was like wake up, make my bed, have a c just to kind of get the day started. Do I I got one thing out of the way, um drink a cup of coffee and sit and write as early as I get up. And that was usually, and then I would try to write around either like a thousand words or ten pages. Screen script writing was kind of interesting because I had never done it before, so I started off writing it like a novel, essentially. So I was being super flowery with the language, and I was I was reading um a book every a Western book every night before I went to bed. Try to get myself in the right, you know, zone. And um, yeah, I would try to write around 10 pages and then be done and then come back to it the next I write a little bit of what I want to write the next day while I still had some creative juice going and then come back to it the next day.

Speaker 14:32

And was your writing like part of your recovery? Like that sounds like a very um like structured, like I mean, I I'm curious about you stopping smoking weed and what that all that whole story, but also like when you talk about it and how structured you were and how like disciplined you were, that also seems like that couldn't have hurt your getting sober journey, you know. Like I would imagine that really helped.

Speaker 1 15:02

It was definitely like, yeah, it was like a way of kind of regimenting myself so I wasn't getting bored or or or allowing myself to kind of be like, I'm not really doing anything, I might as well like smoke weed. Yeah. I mean, I I feel sometimes I feel silly talking about like getting you know sobered from weed because I think a lot of people are have don't have problems with weed. I was like an everyday smoker for probably like 13 years or something like that. Wow. So when I when I quit, it was a very big adjustment for me. And creatively, I think everything I'd written up to that point I'd probably been stoned while writing.

Speaker 15:36

Were you scared about that? Like were you scared that?

Speaker 1 15:38

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, this shit, I I don't know how if the shit that's been coming in my brain has been me or if it's been, you know, a little bit, you know, it's like PEDs and like uh, you know, athletes. Like maybe it's I've just been giving myself a little bit of an extra juice that uh I might not have anymore. But I was I found that my writing was a lot more grounded and uh I could go back and read it and not cringe at it later on. Because some of my some of my other creative you know pieces that I've written for like albums, I go back and read them now. I'm like, oh yeah, I can just like I can smell the weed when I read this.

Speaker 16:11

Yeah. Totally.

Speaker 1 16:13

Yeah.

Speaker 16:14

That's so interesting. And so your getting sober journey coincides with this screenplay. Definitely, definitely, yeah. And do you think that I mean, obviously you can't know this, but like if that you would have been able to do this had you not gotten sober?

Speaker 1 16:34

I don't, I don't, I'd like to think that I wouldn't have been able to. I mean, who knows? It's it's hard to say, but I mean my ability to commit to something was definitely made much stronger after I stopped smoking weed. Like there was a I had a it's like I could see the fitness line and I knew that I could do it if I applied myself. Whereas if I was smoking weed, I don't know how, you know, I probably would have gotten been like, oh, I should try like whittling, or I should maybe I should, you know, certainly learn how to play the banjo or something. You know, I would have I would have gotten uh taken off the off the tunnel vision.

Speaker 17:06

Yeah, it's super interesting to me because obviously like there is some correlation between like substances and creativity, you know. And it's interesting because my first guest, um, who has like similar interests to you, has never had a drink in his life, and he's only smoked weed twice, and once was unbeknownst to him, and once he was in Amsterdam and experimented. But I think it's rare. I mean, particularly like in the like freestyle rap culture and skateboarding and you know, things where you guys overlap.

Speaker 1 17:46

For sure.

Speaker 17:47

He said that all of his friends were like smoking blunts when they were like rapping or skateboarding or you know, doing graffiti, like whatever. It's like such a big part of the culture.

Speaker 1 17:59

Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah. I think a lot of the kids that I grew up with skating, and then you know, my friends that I made when I was in Philly who were skating, it was a lot of a lot of people who j are skateboarders, I think, kind of come from like they kind of feel at some point in their life they were like an outsider. And that those kind of feelings and feeling like you're kind of, I don't know, whatever stuff that you're dealing with on the inside. There's definitely like, yeah, we'll smoke some weed, we'll numb it out a little bit, we're all relaxed, we'll have fun, we'll go have a couple drinks. And um, I that was kind of my experience growing up is like I was definitely like self-medicating, and I think that's kind of common in those kind of like underground or niche, you know, uh cultures and communities and stuff like that, which I there's nothing wrong with it. I think I just kind of got to a point in my life where it's like, I don't know if I want to be in the same kind of circle of self-medication when I'm you know getting older.

Speaker 18:49

Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you said that you were like that those people were kind of outcasts. Did you feel like you were kind of an outcast when you were growing up?

Speaker 1 19:00

Not not not particularly. I think in California it's like the skateboarding is like, you know, like I'm sure in like a lot of the country it's like the cool kids are like the jocks and like the cheerleaders or whatever. But in San Diego, it's kind of like if you skate, then you're like, you know, you kind of get that that thing. I think I definitely wanted to be kind of an outsider. Like there was like a part of me that was like, I wanted to be a weirdo and be not, yeah, I didn't want to be a you know popular, cool kid or whatever, but um, I was probably I don't think I was I would call myself an outcast. I had I had a lot of friends and um yeah, I didn't I didn't particularly feel that way now.

Speaker 19:35

Okay, so now back to your writing process. When you're writing this, you're sitting down, you're you get up, you take your bed, you drink your coffee, you write every day. And how frequently would you say that you have the experience of channeling or being in a flow state or like, you know, getting Yeah, I'm curious more how you would describe that. Like I know you've called it a flow state, but does it feel like the information that you're getting is not of you? I mean, I would imagine there's different iterations of you when you're writing. And so one is just like every day you sit down. Like, how often do you have that experience of channeling?

Speaker 1 20:22

I think when I was writing it, I took a huge break in the middle of writing this, like maybe like two or three months. It just so happened when I met my girlfriend Nene, who uh, you know, for there's like honeymoon months, and I was like, this is all I can focus on right now. There's no way I'm getting any writing done. Um so um there was a huge break. But when I first started writing, I think I was definitely like it was it was rare for me to kind of have like a moment of channeling, and it was kind of difficult for me to like get into that mode. And I think that's partly because I just like didn't really know what I was doing. I didn't have like my routine was sort of there, but not as strongly. But when I came back to it, which I'd I think I'd only written around like 30 or so pages out of like at that time, it was like 150 pages. Um when I came back to it and I was regimented and I was like, you know, really driven on wanting to get it done. I think it was, you know, every day, at least for a little bit of that writing day, I would have a moment where it was like I the way I would describe it is like you're seeing when you're writing a story like fiction, is you're just seeing it unfold in your brain. And there's not there's not an aspect of like, oh well, what's gonna happen next? Like what kind of reaction are they gonna have to this? Or for me it was like I'm watching it in my brain and doing my best to convert that to the paper as quickly as I can before it disappears. It definitely felt at certain times when I was like hitting the flow state and I knew I was in it. Once you become aware that you're kind of like in that zone, it gets kind of like, oh man, I gotta like I gotta get this all out before it disappears.

Speaker 21:56

And do you feel like you're like working Up to that? Or like is that the goal of every time you sit down to write is to get into that state?

Speaker 1 22:06

I think so. Yeah. I think that's usually where my I become most productive. Like at the end of the day, when I look at what I've written, it's like the days that I have entered whatever flow state channeling, those are the days that I'm like most happy with what I've written. Um but sometimes it doesn't come. And I think it's also good sometimes just to be like, it's not gonna happen today. I'll take a break, I'll come back to it tomorrow with a fresh, fresh outlook and let it simmer or whatever. But I'm not a particularly like spiritual person, but I struggle with explaining this kind of thing because it I'm self-conscious about it. But I have felt super spiritual experiences during this writing process that I I had not experienced before with any of my writing. Writing a story and having the influences that I had, it definitely felt like a like a religious practice, almost like a meditation, is how I would feel in certain moments. Yeah, that was new to me, very new to me.

Speaker 23:03

That's amazing. Can you like are there I know that it's hard to like articulate and really put into words like spiritual experiences, but is there anyone in particular that feels like like you can encapsulate with words like what that was like?

Speaker 1 23:25

I'm reminded of a quote from Hemingway when I when I did this is like kind of how I would explain it because he has a his routine was like he would wake up like as early like 5 30 in the morning as early as possible when it was still cold out. And as he would write, he would become warmer. And that's kind of how I would I definitely think that he was maybe inadvertently speaking on like the flow state you reach when you write and you have the stuff that's flowing through you, you get warmer. That's kind of how I would explain it, which is simple, but I think that encapsulates it for me as like a feeling of warmth, and you're in the zone and things feel good, everything's moving, and whatever you were dealing with before, you know, like the cold, you're kind of coming out of that and that's being expressed. And yeah, that's how I would explain it.

Speaker 24:06

Yeah, no, that's that's such a good um visceral experience. Like I can feel what that feels like.

Speaker 1 24:14

Yeah.

Speaker 24:15

I think that part of like it seems amazing to me that you're able to get into that state as frequently as you are. Like that's great. And would you say that part of your ability to do that is because you are putting in the structure every day of like sitting down and, you know, like it's like like you said, it's like a meditation practice, but you gotta sit down and do that every day.

Speaker 1 24:43

Yeah, no, a hundred percent. I think even like the last two, three weeks, I've been struggling. I'm working on a new script now, and I've been struggling with, you know, I I wasn't working, I I have a job now and I'm working pretty, you know, I'm working all the time. So it's super difficult to like want to be in a procedural regimented um thing on the weekends when I have time to write. So it's hard for me to like wake up and make my bed, get my coffee. You know, I want to lay it down, I want to like, you know, I want to watch TV, I want to watch a movie, I want to like doze off while I watch uh while I watch TV or whatever. I I want to decompress from the week, which is yeah. Um, but I definitely think that it was super well, sorry, I'm forgetting the quote the original question. Um I went off on a tangent there.

Speaker 25:25

Yeah, no, that's all good. I like tangents, but um just like how much do you think that your ability to get into that state because of the structures that you have in place?

Speaker 1 25:37

I think it's definitely, yeah, definitely it was the biggest factor, I think, in being able to consistently write and have that experience while writing was that I was keeping myself on on track. I think I definitely probably most people do, but I definitely need like a regiment. And when you're in a regiment and you feel like you've accomplished your little things, then everything, you know, the universal lines, whatever you want to call it, but definitely important. Yeah, definitely super important.

Speaker 26:02

Yeah. When you started writing the screenplay, I mean, I've never done anything even remotely close to write a screenplay. So, like in the beginning, do you have like an idea of the overall sort of storyline, or is it like every day? I mean, I'm sure it's both, but like when you're starting out, do you sort of have like, okay, this is my idea for this story? And then you build on that, or do you build and then it comes to that?

Speaker 1 26:34

I think when I first started running it, I had like maybe the two characters that I wanted the story to revolve around. And then I had like the big dramatic ending that was like the two things that I had in mind. And from there, it was really like just sitting down and trying to, you know, channel the flow state or trying to get whatever came to me. And a lot of the story I wrote chronologically. Um, pretty much all of it, even though I knew what the ending was going to be, I wrote it chronologically. So every day I'd write, I would write, and you know, the story is kind of like an odyssey of these two people and um in different ways, but it it was like every day I would sit down and I would add more to what happened last time and progress the story forward. So that that was that was my process for that.

Speaker 27:16

So you're like building on each day.

unknown 27:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1 27:20

Totally, yeah. Yeah, like a yeah, like a you know, skyscraper, just like one level at a time was kind of how it worked for me. And I don't know, I think a lot of writers write, like from what I've understood, what I understand is everyone has their own process. Some people write the ending first, some people write the middle first, and then go. But for me, chronologically, it just made the most sense for, you know, it was my first time doing it. Maybe I'll develop another strategy, but that that's just what makes most sense to me is the because you'll get the character arcs and all these, you know, little things that you can add in and throw in there. It just makes the most sense to do it chronologically for me.

Speaker 27:52

Yeah, yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense to me too. I I did read some of your screenplay. I did not read the whole thing. That's okay. Yeah, yeah. One of the things that I did print it out. I printed out the whole thing. And then I would go bit and I'd read a little bit at a time. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that you had said was that it was kind of like gruesome by design. And I wonder if you could just speak a little bit about that, like what you mean by that or what the how that sort of like um threads through it.

Speaker 1 28:25

Yeah. So I think I've always kind of, you know, my first now that it's funny that I brought that up because now I'm looking back and like the first thing I ever had published as like a child was about like uh intensely gory and bloody movie about, you know, a serial killer in San Francisco. So I don't know. I think maybe I'm fascinated.

Speaker 28:43

Was that based on the true story?

Speaker 1 28:44

Journey Harry, I think was loosely based on like the Zodiac Killer and the kind of those those types of things. The Bay Area had a bunch of um killers in the same area, which interesting. I have there's we can talk about that. I can talk about anything like that for a while. I I've always had a sort of weird attraction to that kind of a thing. And not that I'm like I'm not a particularly I you know, I'm not a violent person. I don't have violent fantasies. I don't I don't particularly, but it's I think it's always been an interesting um part of human culture. It's how you know violent things have always been. And I think when I wrote this story, I didn't want to shy away from the gruesomeness and brutality of like westward expansions uh in the US, especially like you know, in in Mexico and colonialism, and um, you know, it was really like it was one of the goriest times in American history and and and and gruesome parts of American history. And part part of this definitely I was, you know, since this was my first time writing a script, I was like, I needed to draw from like some sort of source material or some sort of um story. So I was reading Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy, which is like hailed as one of the greatest history books uh uh, you know, not history, but one of the greatest um Western fictions ever written. And it's an extremely violent and gruesome story, but what it does is it it it it's like a meditation on the human experience and and what what was the reality for for a really long time? And I think I I didn't want to write a Western that like had action or stylized violence. I think there's more integrity in having the violence in it be realistic and almost historical in in the kind of uh in the in the themes that it presents.

Speaker 30:21

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And what kind of feedback have you been getting on it? Like what I I there I read something about it's in the circuit.

Speaker 1 30:30

Yeah, yeah. So I was a finalist, a top five finalist in a film festival in Muskogee, Oklahoma, that was it's called the Basin Bell Wild West Film Fest. And um, it was like you find out you're in the semifinals and then the finals, and then you I found out I didn't win. But I mean, I was super honored because I think a lot of people, you know. I I I I'm honored to have had this kind of like uh motivation and and feedback this early into into this kind of this new venture. But um, yeah, it did good. I got I made it to the quarterfinals of another uh uh anti-gravity academy, had a small script writing thing where if I had won, I got I would have gotten good to go to some camp and had people develop it. And um that's that was cool. Um I I submitted it to this website called the Blacklist, who is kind it's kind of like the the premiere. If you want to get your script seen, you go you submit it to them and you get like a score. And I didn't get the score required to kind of like have it, you know, be groundbreaking or anything like that. But I got some really good feedback on it and um some stuff that just made me like really confident. Like, okay, this next one I'm gonna write is gonna be even better than this one. And um also a huge thing with this story is like westerns are not very popular in the market right now, let alone like a a story that's violent and has kind of a dark undertone to it, it's not like huge in the industry. We've got enough of that going on in the world, in the in the real world thing. For sure, yeah, yeah. And I and I totally get that. And I've kind of told at this point, I've like kind of settled instead of like trying to supplus, you know, enter it into more competitions, I think I'm gonna keep this one in my back pocket and I'm gonna kind of move on to what I'm writing next. And uh yeah, not not try to pursue this and just have this as like a writing example or something like that. But I'm still really proud of like uh um completing it and having some feedback from like some industry professionals and stuff like that.

Speaker 32:23

Yeah, that's huge.

Speaker 1 32:24

Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 32:27

Can you say what you're writing now, like what your current one is?

Speaker 1 32:31

Yeah, yeah. I'd love to. Yeah. I'm um I I mean I started boxing when I was probably 10 years old. Uh I don't know. I I'd have to look at I'll buy I'll start I got into a s uh a fight at school, and it was one of those fights at school where it was like me, this kid who was of course like a friend of mine, who like we got he was on the football team. I was hanging out with like the skaters and surfers, and the older kids kind of pitted us against each other, and we had like a fight at the bike path, and there was like you know, million kids all around, and we fought, neither of us knew what we were doing, and it was a really traumatic experience for me. I didn't, I didn't I remember like just like as a kid, I didn't even know how to yeah, it sucked, it sucked. And um uh after that, I was like, well, I gotta learn how to fight because I saw a video of myself in that and I looked so stupid. So I was like, I gotta go learn how to box or self-defense. And uh my dad was on board with it. I think my mom was kind of hesitant, but um, I boxed for a few years there in high school, and then I've always like trained boxing, and I have a huge passion for it. So, what I'm writing now is a story about an Olympic boxer who is an immigrant. Um, he's a Georgian immigrant because I'm co-writing this with my with my partner girlfriend Nene. And uh that's yeah, she's helping me kind of Does she write? Yeah, yeah, she's she's a great writer. She's a I mean English is not her first language, and uh, she's a better writer than I am. And I tell her that all the time. She maybe she doesn't believe me all the time, but she's an amazing writer. Um, and it's so cool to date someone who shares in a in a uh passion or you know, hobby or that kind of a thing. Um but yeah, so she is gonna be kind of like my co-writer and my uh Georgian authenticity uh um checker. Like your fact checker, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So the story follows a um a child refugee of the 2008 war in Georgia when Russia invaded South Ossetia, which was uh it was a really brutal, like short campaign. It was like eight days, but I think like 200 over 200,000 people were refugeed. But the story follows a kid who starts off as a dancer who's like uh things like Billy Elliott, like he's like a ballet dancer. And in Georgia, they have Georgian dancing, it's really a popular thing. Starts off as a dancer, gets switched to boxing because he's kind of a little bit of a delinquent, and then you know, he is refugeed during this war. He comes to America years later, it cuts to years later, and he's uh fighting for America in the Olympics in the upcoming Summer Olympics. The story itself is gonna be a kind of uh study on uh identity as it relates to immigration, and um it's gonna be kind of his I hate to call it a coming of age story, but it it's a little bit of like he's finding out who he is and his love for his country and and uh you know kind of dealing with the trauma of his past through the four or five tournament fights of this uh Olympic boxing thing.

Speaker 35:17

That's awesome. That sounds really cool. Like I'm excited to read it. I think that the the like the blood and gore of boxing feels really different to me than like colonial, like horror balls.

Speaker 1 35:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, 100%. It's a lot lighter. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 35:34

Yeah. I didn't know that about the boxing. I I knew from watching your Instagram that you're really into boxing, but I had no idea that that was something that you that you've done, that you do, and that it came out of like a trauma with so how did you end up fighting your like you guys were friends?

Speaker 1 35:56

And yeah, we were like super close, and then we went to high school, and he was like with a different crowd than I was. And I think it started off like innocently enough, and then I don't think either of us wanted to fight, but we just got pushed into it by like the older kids that we were trying to be cool with or whatever. But yeah, that was a funny experience. Um I I didn't have any serious the only injury I had post-fight was that my knees were all scraped up from like falling down, and uh I didn't I didn't my I was fine. And I think the the understanding was that I lost the fight, I didn't win the fight. I was like, I I didn't really I wasn't hurt, but I was like, I got too tired, and I was like, I'm done. And then as soon as we stepped off, like two of the older kids started fighting, and it was like a whole thing. But um I remember like I came home, I like my parents like saw me and I was all scraped up and bloody, and they were like, What's going on? And I was like, Oh, I explained it to them, and I was so bummed and I had lost the fight, but I still like it that night was some big football game, and everyone when the school was going, and I was like, I can either stay home and not go and like be embarrassed, or I can go and show face and show that I'm not like you know scared of being whatever. And I went and I think that was like a big step for me. I think as in my young life, I was like, I that took more bravery than being in a fight or anything like that, was like showing up to school that next day. And um, yeah, and also, yeah, I was like, I want to learn how to defend myself if something like that happens again, or if I, you know, bullied or there was all yeah, there was like bullying and stuff like that at that time. So I was kind of like, I wanna, I want to learn how to box. And I think my dad was like on board. I think my mom hit me with a little bit of like Jews don't box, like Jews don't box. And I was like, I and I was like, before, before before, you know, the boxing was huge when it was still kind of small in the US, a lot of Jewish boxers. When when the Jews were immigrants in this country, um, when they were originally, you know, coming over, there was a lot of Jewish boxers. So I think I proved to her that I I I deserve to learn how. And I had a really good experience in the gym when I first started. Like uh Freddie King was my trainer. He was a two-time Golden Gloves champion, he was a little bit older at the time, and he just taught me so much about like boxing culture and what it meant to kind of like be a man. And um, there was so much of like I can't watch a boxing movie now without crying. Like it's it's number or any kind of book or anything, like I can't help it. It it it hits something in me because I think it was such an integral part of my life and who I, you know, like my growth as like a young adult or young, you know, teenager. But yeah, I'm super thankful for that experience.

Speaker 38:21

Yeah, yeah, I didn't know that. That's very cool. Yeah. Like a nice little piece of your history that I'm sure there's plenty of things I don't know about your history. But I think it's so funny that your I thought what you were gonna say about your mom was like, oh, you can't box. Like it's too dangerous. But she was like, no, Jews don't box. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 38:42

No, I mean that was like it was like, I wanted to do football. She was like, Jews don't play football. I wanted to try hockey like Jews don't play hockey. I the funniest one that I she was right about was Jews don't do Boy Scouts. And I it retrospect, I'm like, she might have she she might have been looking out for me on that list or whatever, you know.

Speaker 38:57

That one I can understand, but the fact that that was her reason uh besides that the reason wasn't like football's so dangerous, hockey's so dangerous, like that's how I would be, you know.

Speaker 1 39:08

Yeah, it's probably how she felt yeah, but she was just like, I'll explain it. I don't want to say that. I don't want him to think that he can't like, but she was like, you know, Jews don't do we don't do that. Like, okay. I guess that makes sense. I guess I don't know what we do.

Speaker 39:21

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny.

Speaker 1 39:23

Yeah.

Speaker 39:24

I'm just gonna ask the question about Della. Like, what role does she play in your writing?

Speaker 1 39:29

Uh I don't know where she is. She just oh, she's going, she's sitting over there staring at me. Like, what is she doing? Um, she I'm trying to remember who the quote was from. Maybe it was Hemingway, also. I hate to be quoting Hemingway this much. Um, but he has a quote about how like I maybe it's him. It might not be him. Um, that the cat is like the living embodiment or the soul of your house or where you live. It's like if your house had a soul, it would be the cat. Oh, interesting. You know, and I I think that she has, you know, she's stuck with me through some heart, she's been with me for some through some hard stuff. And whenever I'm sitting here writing, it's I'm it it's it's surprising that she's not over here right now. But she always comes and checks in on me and shows me some love. And um yeah, it's like having, I don't know, having a little soul with me is nice. It's nice having a little soul that's uh you know, there with me.

Speaker 40:19

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And she was part of a litter of one of your mom's cats, is that right?

Speaker 1 40:28

No, no. I I can tell you the story of how I get her. I love, I love telling the story. Um, I was working at a warehouse in Philadelphia at a record pressing manufacturer, and it was uh off in kind of like outskirts of Philly in like a super industrial district, and there was a whole colony of cats around that place. And she used to come around, she had an older sister who disappeared, and then she was like a tiny little kitten, and she would come. I I was I would open, so I would come in there, I'd turn the boiler on and the life on, and she would crawl out from under the boiler in the winter because it was like warm under there, and we just became friends. Like I would feed her, I'd bring her water. Um, we became really cool, and uh it was like she we I I had no intentions of having a cat or wanting a cat, but I was like, this is my homie, this is my my little my little my dog, you know. Uh and um we had this crazy Russian building manager who kept threatening to kill her because he knew that we were like, you know, taking her in, and he was like, I'm gonna kill her if you don't you know get rid of her or whatever. And then no, we didn't really take him seriously, and then some either him or one of his cronies started leaving like detergent by what we would feed her and like like poisoning her.

Speaker 41:35

No, hoping that that she would eat it.

Speaker 1 41:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Crazy, that's crazy. Yeah, that's it. So that happened, and then I was like, okay, I'm gonna take her home. And I didn't plan on keeping her. Um I just wanted to get her out of there so she didn't eat detergent or whatever. Um, and then we just yeah, we fell in love, and she's like she's the perfect uh companion for me. She's like a dog, like I would describe her as a dog because she likes belly rubs and she talks, she's very talkative and uses her voice, and yeah, she she rocks and we we didn't you enter her into a competition? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I was trying to get her cat of the year for some like magazine or something, and she got close. She made it to like the semifinals, but I think she was up against some like influencer cats that had big followings.

Speaker 42:22

Yeah. Oh, that's sweet. I didn't realize that she lived with you in Philly and that she moved here.

Speaker 1 42:27

Yeah, yeah. We went across the country together.

Speaker 42:30

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. So she's been with you. And how old is she?

Speaker 1 42:33

I I have no idea. I think around four, according to what the vets say, but uh when I uh I think around four, yeah. Cool. But yeah, she's like my my little uh my little co-writer. I call her my co-writer because I I don't think I've done any riding without her present. I don't think I like I feel like I've always wanted to go do like a retreat and like go like rent a cabin in the woods and do some riding, but I'd have to bring her with me because I feel like she's integral to the process.

Speaker 42:57

Would she be able to travel and be in a new place or would that freak her out?

Speaker 1 43:01

Uh yeah, it's a good question. I think I think she'd be able to do it, but she'd probably be pretty freaked out. She's very sensitive. She's very sensitive.

Speaker 43:08

As cats are. I think my cat is more like a dog too. And she's wanting nothing to do with me. She's sitting on her own chair right now. Yeah, yeah. When you met Nene, did you know that she was like that that the two of you were gonna write? Like, was that something that you talked about in the beginning? Like you're writing, the fact that you're both writers, and like when did that become a thing?

Speaker 1 43:33

I think on our first date, we both talked about journal. She is, she has done. I mean, my journalism is pales in comparison. Oh, here's Dela now. Um, it pales in comparison to what she's done. She's written for some serious newspapers in Georgia, and she's done some like, you know, I I would consider it like real journalism. What I do, I think, is more fun stuff. Uh I I I I'm not a I wouldn't call myself a journalist, you know. Like I prefer writer. But um yeah, on our first date, we talked about writing. We also just talked Talked a bunch about uh authors we liked and writers that we both liked. And it was the first time I'd ever been on a first date and like could have like a really good conversation about literature. Which like I didn't know that was an important thing to me until it happened. I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. And I think when I met her, I was like, this is the type of person that you know I mean I fell in love instantly, but I definitely knew in some place that I was like, this is someone if I did, I have to be the best version of myself. And that included the writing and stuff like that. Like I wanted to, I wanted to prove myself, I guess, in a way.

Speaker 44:34

That's great. She elevated you, or you elevated her presence. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, that's super cool. Yeah, it makes me think about because again, I didn't know anything about you when we wrote our speeches for the wedding. You know, we would meet, um, you know, for those who don't know, Sam and I would meet on Zoom and just kind of like go over what we had each written. And little did I know that you were, I mean, your speech was really good and funny. And I think my favorite line was um that my brother Sam fit into your family like an oversized half Jewish puzzle piece. Is that what it was? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. Yeah. So this is the part in the podcast where we pivot, and I get to play with and practice my own experience of channeling. For me, the process is very much one of being a practice. So it's just like I'm just practicing every time I do it, I'm just practicing. And for sure. It's the same thing where it's like sitting and just listening and um also trusting myself, like trusting the messages that I'm getting. And so I've asked my guests to leave a voice note on my phone before we meet with a question that they have. And so you're questioning about like how it's hard for you to sit down and get into a flow state after a day of work that has been like particularly challenging, or a day of news that has been particularly gnarly. And so I kind of like sat with that question uh this morning. And I often get messages in the form of songs and or just like a song lyric. And the lyric that I so I I like you, when you said you would read Westerns the night before you start writing, I will kind of ask my subconscious, like, any messages for Sam, like give them to me through my dreams.

Speaker 1 46:45

Yeah.

Speaker 46:46

Um and so the song that I I'm always kind of embarrassed about, like the songs, but the song that I woke up this morning was um by New Edition. Do you know who New Edition is?

Speaker 1 46:55

I don't know New Edition. I feel like I'm I feel like I've heard of New Edition, but I I'm not familiar now.

Speaker 47:01

Okay, well, I am dating myself about how my about my age, but no, no, no. The song is called Can You Stand the Rain? Oh, I know that song. Yeah, okay. I do know that song. Yeah, yeah. And two of my oldest and dearest friends from Boston had just gone to see New Edition at, you know, like a comeback concert or whatever that's anymore. But, anyways, that so that song came to me, and it's like the the idea is like, you know, obviously we all want the sunshine, but like, can you stand the rain? And so I kind of think about that as like you've got to stand like the challenges, you know, like that it is gonna be challenging to sit down and write after work. Like it's amazing to me that you even do that. Like that you can go to work all day and then come home and sit down and write. I just think that that sounds extremely challenging and like such uh commitment to your craft and so much discipline. And um then the other thing that often comes to me is a spirit animal. Spirit animal that came to me was an eagle. Oh, nice. Um, I love that. Yeah. Do you have any like associations to eagles or do you just like eagles?

Speaker 1 48:20

I mean, we I I don't know about eagles. We have a lot of hawks that fly around here, which it's interesting. We have this old uh I think it's an oak tree that sits out front. It just fell down. It's like this really old giant oak tree that the hawks used to come and sit out and could watch them from our window. And uh it just fell down and then the you know the stormy weather we've had. Um, so I'm I'm we know it's sad that we won't be able to see him anymore. But I mean, I yeah, I love eagles also, like it's just they're so cool.

Speaker 48:46

So when I consulted, I have a um very old medicine cardbook, and I thought it was really interesting in thinking about what you said about like having this be kind of a spiritual experience for you because the ego is spirit, like the message of the eagle is spirit. And um what I wrote down is ego medicine is the power of great spirit, the connection to the divine. It is the ability to live in the realm of spirit and yet remain connected and balanced within the realm of earth. Ego represents a state of grace achieved through hard work and a completion of the tests of initiation, which result in the taking of one's own personal power. It is only through the trials of experiencing the lows in life as well as the highs, and through the trial of trusting one's connection in the great spirit that the right to use the essence of ego medicine is earned. Wow. Yeah, I can send you that. I can send you more about it. Yeah, yeah, please do. I thought it was interesting when, you know, because it sounds like this is a spiritual experience for you, even though you don't consider yourself a spiritual person. Yeah, yeah. Um, and that, you know, those challenges that you have are just part of the process. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 50:17

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. Actually, yeah, that reminds me of something that you said that um my gr going back to my grandfather was something that he would always say to my mom and that she always uh said to me was, you know, when I was like really young, like I was super hesitant towards like spiritualism in terms of like how it was presented to me, which was like Judaism. I was always like, I don't know, I don't know about this stuff, like I don't know if it really connects with me. But what she said to me was I I would ask her, like, was he religious? And she said he only felt religious and spiritual when he was on top of his horse in nature. That was where he felt the most spiritual and uh you know, more than any synagogue ever gave to him. And that's always sort of stuck with me. And it's interesting that you say that, yeah. Especially with how you know we I interact with the the hawks and and stuff like that. Like being up here on the farm is a great place for riding, I think, because of my connection to nature here.

Speaker 51:10

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's such a beautiful place. Yeah, I'm very lucky. Yeah, yeah. I'm I'm excited to visit as soon as I possibly. I found out the other day that Theo, my son, might have a tournament in Temecula. Oh, come on through. That's amazing. Great excuse to come to Temecula. Totally. But yeah, I think that there, yeah, just that that the there is something about the connection with your grandfather and like spirituality and just sort of like how these messages come through. And I would imagine, you know, on some level, like you are connected. I mean, obviously you are connected to him, but like even now, yeah, that like yeah, he is connected to you through this writing process.

Speaker 1 51:59

Totally, yeah, totally, yeah. I definitely felt like you know, maybe it was him having this picture here that I was I would be looking at and kind of getting a threat to him, but I I for the first time ever felt like the presence of him when I was writing. When I really would have like a good flow state and um I would feel like he was there looking over my shoulder and kind of like guiding me. I definitely felt that. It was it was a really crazy experience for me too, because I'm yeah, like I said, I was never too big on spiritualism, but it I definitely like it opened my eyes and I feel like it kind of ushered in like a new way of thinking about things uh since that happened.

Speaker 52:37

And can you describe like how you felt his presence or was it just like a felt sense?

Speaker 1 52:44

Yeah, I I don't know how I could describe it aside from there would be times when you know I wouldn't know where to take things or what to you know what to focus on. And I I the huge start of this story also is there is there's a horse in the story that belongs to the main character named Ringo, which was the name of his horse. And uh I felt like whenever there was kind of like I was like unsure of where to go, it's like, well, go back to the horse. Like go back to what is the horse doing, like what does the horse need, go back to the relationship between him and his horse. And that definitely helped me get through some like I wouldn't call it rider's block, but just some kind of like challenging points when I was unsure of where to go forward. And I like to think that that was him being like, Well, you gotta talk about the horse. All cowboys love their horses, you know, that kind of a thing.

Speaker 53:29

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. I love that. I love the connection to him, and also just like that the writing of that screenplay was done on your mom's land, which is just like, you know, such a such a place of nature, and that that's how he found his connection to spirituality was in a place of nature. Totally, totally, yeah.

Speaker 1 53:53

Full circle, yeah, totally.

Speaker 53:55

Yeah, yeah, I love that. Well, thank you, Sam. That was so much fun, and I'm so grateful that you agreed to come on and be my second guest.

Speaker 1 54:06

Yeah, no, thank you so much. It was really good to talk through things. I feel like that was my first chance to really parse through everything, and I just really appreciate the opportunity, Maya. Thank you.

Speaker 54:16

Well, maybe we can even do a part two after you finish your next screenplay.

Speaker 1 54:22

Yeah, no, I'd love to. I think uh my fiance is gonna be working on me with it, uh working on it with it with me for the next one. So uh we'd be loved to come on together.

Speaker 54:31

Oh, I love that idea. I love the idea of having both of you on. Cool. All right, thank you again, Sam. Thank you, Ma. Bye. Bye. I would like to thank my editor and original music maker, Luca Zeisati, my technical support friend Khalicia Gardeen, and everyone who loved, encouraged, and supported me in creating this podcast. And thank you, the listener, for listening.