The Loud Mums Club

One Kid Sleeps. One Kid Plots Revenge.

• Katie Dunbabin • Season 1 • Episode 5

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0:00 | 1:02:29

Is sleep training the answer... or does it just depend on the child?

This week I'm joined by Steph, mum of two, as we dive into one of parenting's biggest debates. We chat about sleep training, autism, postpartum depression, trusting your gut, and why no two kids are ever the same. It's an honest, funny, and refreshingly judgement-free conversation that every parent can relate to.

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to the Lad Mama Club. What do we say the out loud? The good, the bad, and the absolutely cool parts of parenting. What are we drinking today? Wine, coffee, or tears? I'm sat here with my guest, Steph. We're having a glass of red, and I want you to introduce yourself. So who are you and what ages are your kids?

SPEAKER_00

My name is Steph, and I've got two girls and they are five and one. And how do we meet?

SPEAKER_01

We met through a book club. Our little botanic wookies. Shout out to the girls. Um we we started what three seven. Three or four years, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00

January?

SPEAKER_01

We've done a couple of years. Was it February? Yeah. Yeah, right. So if anyone's local to the Cranberry and Botanic Ridge area, reach out because you were and you like to read. You're very, very welcome to come join us. We'll give you the information. Um, what are some facts about you? I say five, but you don't have to do five.

SPEAKER_00

Um, I actually, funnily enough, I saw a TikTok the other day and it said, a fun fact about me is that I would rather drink water out of a tuna can than have to give five facts about myself. It's like so I guess that's a fun fact.

SPEAKER_01

People that hate like icebreaker, you know, like you go to like a new work thing and it's like, oh I'm gonna do an icebreaker activity. Oh fuck you, Steph. That's fine. You wanted to give me five facts.

SPEAKER_00

I don't have any fun facts. I'm such a boring.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so one fact is we've both recently built homes in the same little estate, which is very exciting. The second fact is your husband drives a beautiful car that you hate. Yes, with a passion, hate passion. Another fact is you have a child that is diagnosed on the spectrum. Yes, love you. A S D You just came from Bali, which was um a bit of a shit joke because everyone got a little bit sick due to different things. Yeah, probably the worst things. The worst time in my life. But also signed up for another holiday in two years' time with mum. So that's fine. Can't have been that bad. Um on a scale of thriving to crying in the pantry, how are you going?

SPEAKER_00

I feel like I'm smackbang in the middle. Yeah. Some days are better than others. Yeah, and I feel like it, yeah. Like probably teeters either way, but yeah. Smackbang in the middle is probably that's fair. Probably where I am.

SPEAKER_01

It's hard sometimes, and other days it's great. Yeah. Okay, so it's time for our small business shout-out for the week. This one is for anyone who loves supporting a small business and appreciates something made with love. Not a mass-produced product, but something where every piece is made right here in Melbourne. This is a shout-out to buy a thread handmade, creating beautiful handmade pieces that are thoughtful, unique, and made with so much care. From bunting with your baby's name for their bedroom or bibs, they make so many beautiful treasures that can be custom ordered. Using upcycled fabrics and the pieces to reduce impact on landfill and overconsumption. And honestly, there's just something so special about buying from another mum small business who just gets it. The late nights, the chaos, the juggling kids whilst trying to build something amazing. Whether you're looking for a gorgeous gift, something special for your little one, or just a beautiful handmade goodie, go give buy a thread handmade some love. Because when we support small businesses, especially mum-run businesses, we're supporting dreams, school lunches, and probably someone trying to package orders while saying stop licking your brother for the 17th time that day. Okay, it's time for your mum fail of the week. Would you like to start or would you like me to start?

SPEAKER_00

My mum fail of the week is my dishwasher when it finishes its little wash cycle, it has about 10 minutes of drying time at the end where the door pops open. And it's really quiet, and I never hear the door pop open. But my one-year-old does, and she likes to open the door and then flip open the little rinse aid part and stick her finger in it and lick it off.

SPEAKER_01

I feel like I feel like she's just gonna be. We've talked today about how strong-minded she is. She's already like, she's what, 15 months, very strong-willed, has now found her voice. She's gonna be your child that is making like the TikTok videos, you know those viral videos, like eating the pods or like doing the stupid things that they shouldn't do. Oh yeah, yeah, she's gonna be that adventurous one. I'm just gonna lick the chemicals, mum. Yeah, so good. She, yeah, she has a problem. So we've got have you got a lock on the chemical cabinet? I do.

SPEAKER_00

But I didn't think I'd need to have a lock on the rinse part of my dishwasher. Is that even possible?

SPEAKER_01

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know. Especially if it's like that's part of its cycle, like it pops open to dry. Like if I do catch it and I close it, then my dishes don't dry.

SPEAKER_01

So I'm impressed that a dishwasher does that. I didn't know that even did that. I I'm the one that opens it, it beeps, and I go, cool, I'm gonna crack it in so it can dry out. Yeah. Anyway, that's so funny. Mine has been um Livby's had issues with anxiety recently and just like changed in routine. And I just thought, oh, cool, I'll change her swimming lesson to be with a friend. And then because we changed the time, we changed the the class, who it was with, the teacher it was with. Um, unfortunately, she got in the pool this week and just burst into tears. And so that was my mum fail. And that was us just sort of navigating a child that struggles with change and struggles with things in her environment that I think she just gets so set in her way. Um that unfortunately I feel like I really failed in that way. It's a learning curve, but like I'm trying to figure out what triggers certain anxiety with her and what doesn't, and we are looking into it, but I did have a real moment of well, that is I fucked up there. I should have not consulted her, that doesn't sound right, but probably prepared her a bit better.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think it is very hard in the moment to like recognize a situation where you're like, okay, well, why is it that big of a deal? So then have to put yourself in her shoes and be like, okay, like my bad, that is a big deal to you. Like in my head, I'm I'm sorry, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01

I'm moving you in with a little school friend. Like, yeah, go in with your schoolfriend. This is gonna be great. You can now go swim with your school friend. But no, different swim teacher. There was two big boys in the class. She was like, absolutely not on. Like the friend was not on. Not on. And I was like, okay, so do you would you would you be okay if you're back with your teacher? And she's like, yes. And I'm like, okay, so we're just gonna go back to the normal routine. So the joys. Okay, time for fuck around and find out. What chaos did your tiny feral unleash this week?

SPEAKER_00

Well, it's always my 15-month-old. She she has a problem, honestly. Um, I feel like everything that she does is fuck around and find out. She's gonna turn you grey. Yeah. Oh well, she already has. Very disciples. Um, look, she's done many a things today. She yeah, she loves to climb, falling over. Um, it's just at a point now where pretty much anything that she does, it's like fuck around and find out. If you want to climb up on that chair, are you that mum that will just let her? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like you're a you're a let it happen and you can find you are going to find out parents. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I don't really know how to teach otherwise. Like without yelling, going, get off, get down.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And it's like, well, you have to learn at some point, so why not now? Um, but might definitely like fuck around and find out is that she has mastered the stairs at home, which is fine. Um, obviously she has to learn them at some point, but yeah, today she just got a bit too overconfident and she fell down like maybe four or five steps. I actually don't even know because I wasn't there.

SPEAKER_01

Did she get up though and just bounce? Like I feel like Harry just concrete.

SPEAKER_00

She learned from all fours like a cat.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, nine lives. Yeah, too.

SPEAKER_00

It's it's she cried because she got a fright. She wasn't. If it was the shock, yeah, not and it was like, okay, well, that's good because now you've learnt you can't go fast.

SPEAKER_01

I'll only do it once.

SPEAKER_00

Oh no, she does it 50 times.

SPEAKER_01

I don't have that kit either. Now, Harry like will just throw himself off something and then get up and laugh and just do it again. Like, he doesn't have that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

No. But I mean, if there's like less tears next time, that's a win.

SPEAKER_01

No, because next time it'll be eight steps, not four.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's okay. Thank God she can only go as far as eight before the other.

SPEAKER_01

Are your stairs um there's wooden or are they like carpeted or they're all carpeted except for the bottom three.

SPEAKER_00

So as long as she doesn't fall like, you know, the bottom part. Yeah, we're fine. Yeah. Like if she falls onto carpet, it's fine.

SPEAKER_01

That's so funny. Oh god, kids are just insane. I do remember both kids at that age, they're just in that like curious curious, curiosity stage of like, what can my body do? I've now figured out how to walk. And they're not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_00

There's still a bit of a gap.

SPEAKER_01

So what the consequences are of like, I'm gonna do this. Harry used to just throw himself off play equipment, so it was like the fireman pole would be there, but he wouldn't grab the fireman pole, he would just jump. So there was a lot of that happening. I have to say, actually, shout out to my best friend Amy. We caught up, and her daughter was like two and a half, and she remembers this moment distinctly. I've never seen a superwoman like moment like this. Like, you know, you hear you talk about like mums lifting off cars off their babies and things. Yeah, yeah. We were sat on a park bench catching up, and her daughter Peyton was running around. She would have been two and a half, three and a half, and she did exactly that. She went to go just throw herself off where the farmers pole was. And we were watching, like, you know how you kind of like you're watching, but you're talking. Yeah. So we're watching, and we're like both looking at her going, nah, she wouldn't do that. There's no way she would do that. And she did. She threw herself off. From the point of jumping, Amy ran so fast she caught her. That's insane. It it was like a superhuman moment. I tell you, I was so we just looked at each other afterwards and we were like, I was like, done. How did you even get that? Did I just witness that? Did you seriously just do that? My fuck around fine out moment was Harry. We've had a bit of an issue with his sleep recently. So I've been getting into bed with him and having to sleep with him and stuff. And the other night I've also got a chronic back pain and my neck was just so sore. I was like, I can't sleep in here today. Like I had a nap for like an hour and I was so sore. I'm like, I'm going back to bed. And I thought I would sneak out. By the time I got to the end of the hallway, he was like, excuse me, where are you going? It was like 2 a.m.

SPEAKER_00

Dude, come back.

SPEAKER_01

And I was like, No, no, no, like I'm going to bed, you need to go to sleep. But he was then awake from like 1 till 4 a.m. And this was us and me and Ryan going back and forth, putting it back to bed. We tried yelling, we tried, you know, being calm, we tried threaten, thre threatening to take things away. So I finally just said, That's it. Like, I'm sick of this shit. Like, you need to go to sleep. There will now be no video games to the end of the weekend, there'll be no TV. So this was Wednesday night. So I'm like, no video games, no TV. We're not going to the candy shop on Friday, which is a regular occurrence with me and him on Fridays when we have a day together. And I'm like, I am I'm not doing this. This is not okay. This is not okay behaviour. Um, this also leads into our sleep training. Ironic that this is a subject we picked to choose.

SPEAKER_00

I was literally just thinking, yeah. We had like a stage of such a long time where Adley would be awake from like one till four every night. Every night? Every night. Why one till four? A long period of time. How old was she? Because our kids are very close in age. Yeah, maybe like 18 months, two months.

SPEAKER_01

Oh no, okay. Yeah, we definitely went through all of that.

SPEAKER_00

So when they were little a year, 18 months. It was a very, very long time.

SPEAKER_01

I just don't know what to do. And the hard thing is we've actually talked about it. Like, I think we just need to get the kids need new beds anyway. And if we're gonna get them new beds, we'll get them double beds. Yeah, if there's a rough night, I would much rather just go sleep with one of the kids. I can't sleep in a single bed on a shitty mattress while sharing with a fucking hot pocket because they're so bloody hot. I just can't cope. So I'm like, all right, let's put a system in place that if it's a bad night, which doesn't happen often, but if it's a bad night, then at least we've got the right system set up.

SPEAKER_00

Because the only night I've ever slept in a single bed with my eldest was the night that I came home from the hospital. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01

With her little sister. So wanted a cuddle with her big sister.

SPEAKER_00

She just like obviously, like it's the first night I've ever been away from her, obviously being in the hospital the night prior, having her sister.

SPEAKER_01

So you only had one night in hospital with Emmy?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, one night. It actually wouldn't have even been a night if um I had gestational diabetes. So they had to test her blood sugars. And because it's like I think it's two hours apart and had to do it three times, it pushed us over to midnight. So they said we can't, like you have to be discharged the next day.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Anyway, so I wouldn't have even had to stay in.

SPEAKER_01

What if you would have just had birth in the morning, they would have let you go home. Is that a thing?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Really? Yeah. I thought you had to say a minimum of one night. I think for second births, like if you know what you're doing and you're comfortable and everything's fine. But what a dream. Imagine having giving birth in the morning and then just going home in the afternoon. That would have been my dream if she came out a little bit earlier. That's not true. That could have been my reality. So yeah, I went home, obviously exhausted because she didn't really sleep in the hospital. Yeah. And I was like, I actually don't care if I sleep, I'm just gonna sleep in her bed, like whatever. We'll just pull the bassinet in, that's fine, we'll sleep in there. And then halfway through the night, she wanted mum. So she came in and we're sharing a single bed, and I'm just getting up every couple hours to feed. That was great.

SPEAKER_01

And she didn't she didn't care, she was just happy that you were there. Yeah, she just knew you were there. Yeah, she just wanted to be close to mum. Yeah, Harry does this thing when I am in bed with him, like he kind of forgets that I'm there, rolls over, gets comfortable, and then obviously must stir and wakes up and then puts his hand on my face. Yeah. Or like comes up and like headbutts me in the nose because he wants to get close to me. Yeah. I'm like, oh god, it's just not viable. Option.

SPEAKER_00

It's not fun and it's not nice, but it's also like, oh.

SPEAKER_01

How sweet that they want me. I know.

SPEAKER_00

But can they just not want me between the hours and then?

SPEAKER_01

Can you have those moments of like, yeah, between 7 p.m. and 7am, don't fucking want me. Yeah, don't want me then. After that's fine. But this leads perfectly into our this week's subject of the village verdict, sleep training, yes or no, because we are both on very different ends of the spectrum with this. I am a diehard sleep trainer girl. Like, I think everyone should do sleep training. Other than the issues we've had with Harry recently, my kids have slept 12 hours a night since they were little because we put sleep training into place from the very start. But before your daughter was diagnosed, did you ever try traditional sleep training methods?

SPEAKER_00

I definitely researched them. I definitely bought more programs than I should have. Well, how did I ever put it into practice?

SPEAKER_01

A little bit there. How old was Adley when she was diagnosed?

SPEAKER_00

Uh, she was only recently diagnosed. It's been suspected. Well, for me, it's been suspected since she was about 12 months old. Yeah. Um, by professionals, it's been suspected since she was probably three and a half. And she's just been formally diagnosed, like just prior to turning five. And she was diagnosed with with level two ASD.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So when she was 12 months old, and you're saying that you had suspected there was something different there. What were those signs? What did that look like?

SPEAKER_00

Um, her favourite toys at that age was stacking cups and multiple sets of them, and she would carry them everywhere. And like if they dropped, it wasn't a meltdown, but like the speed at which she could put these multiple sets of cups back together. Like, it's better than what I could ever do it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00

Like that was just her thing. Like, she loved her cups, and then she was probably obsessed with the cups for a good maybe like six to eight months, and then she moved on to pegs, which was like colour sorting pegs, putting them on any surface that they could get on, putting them on her hands, like putting them on her feet, like but like a full obsession, yeah. She just loved pegs, cups and pegs.

SPEAKER_01

How interesting, and then for you that was like a oh, there's a real kind of focus on this one thing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I feel like the biggest like flag for autism is like playing with toys not in a like purposeful or the way that they should be played with. Okay, yeah. So, like, you know, stacking cups, it's like okay, well, you stuck them, like you make a tower out of them. But she was like, No, these are my security cups, and they have to be they have to be in the right order and I carry them around. Like it's not like we build with them, yeah, or like you know, it was a security thing, that's a good way to put it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's just it was like a security blanket. No, I have to have these with me all the time. Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. So we say before your daughter was diagnosed, so obviously leading up to 12 months, the I mean zero to 12 months is the fucking hardest part of trying. I never thought I'd have to teach my kids to sleep. And as a huge sleeper, hoped and dreamed that my kids would just be big sleepers, didn't end up being that way at all, didn't have to expect to teach my children how to sleep. I I that was not on my list of things I was concerned about as a parent of what challenges I'd face. But yeah, so before she was diagnosed, what were your thoughts on sleep training? And like had you looked into it, you said you've obviously bought more things. Is that like those online courses? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Like just even more for me, like obviously as a first-time mum, you have absolutely no idea what you're doing. Like, I don't know how long like they should be awake for.

SPEAKER_01

And or the weight was a game changer in itself, like just learning 100% how long a child should be awake.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, now that they're overtired, like cool. Yeah, yeah. Um, so definitely that for me, and even just honestly, like having somebody tell me this is what your daily routine should look like, or even just the basic thing of like, okay, you should get them outside in the morning because that helps with their melatonin or whatever production.

SPEAKER_01

Be fucking handed over to you when you leave the hospital in a pamphlet. I could make I could literally make a two-page trifold with these are the awake times, this is the expectation of zero to twelve months of how long. Yes. Because of what I've learned, and this is how your days should be structured. Like, I used to overfeed Olivia every night because I assumed every time she cried, she was hungry. Yeah. And the poor kid, no wonder she was vomiting all night because she's so she was stuffed full 100%. And I think that really simple, it should be a government-mandated document of like this not saying you have to sleep train your child, but like he's a troubleshooting document. Understand that at six at three months your child shouldn't be awake longer than an hour and a half. Yeah. And if that means you go for a drive or you go for a walk in the Pram or whatever, and try and get your child to have a nap, even if it's for 10 minutes, yeah, you'll set yourself up for success. Because I just it was just a shit show. An absolute shit show.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I don't really remember too much like now, and obviously in the throes of it with another child, it kind of blurs together. Amen. I get that. Um she was never a bad sleeper. And what would she say she's a bad sleeper? Like, you know, waking like four plus times a night, you know, and like I don't know, like if she would wake up, she would either settle with a feed or she'd settle with a cuddle. Like it wasn't hard to get her back to sleep. Yeah, like it was never, I never looked at it as an issue. I'm more compared to other kids that were her age, and it's like, okay, well, she's doing things differently to what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01

Or more during the day not to do asleep necessarily. You were sleeping surviving at both. Yeah, okay. Because it was kind of like, okay, well, maybe Oh yeah, you're sleeping through the night, and you're like, okay, why is my baby not?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Or the people that say my baby sleeps from seven till seven, they sleep through the whole night and they only wake up twice for a feed, and it's like, that's not sleeping through the night, that's still waking up twice. I agree.

SPEAKER_01

That's definitely not sleeping seven till seven. So what? I'm talking seven till seven when my kids slept seven till seven.

SPEAKER_00

And I don't have to respond to it.

SPEAKER_01

I'd wake up in the morning and my boobs would be bursting, and I would be like, one of my children are dead. Yeah, I've accidentally turned off the monitor or they've rolled over, they've suffocated. Yeah. Speaking of my mum babysat, the kids once. And I don't remember if it was Livy or Harry. I have a feeling it was Livy, but mum woke up and checked the baby monitor, and she was she was not in the cot, like not in the travel cot. She's looked at the monitor going, fucking hell. And this is when they sleep with no blankets, so it's just the cot mattress and just her sleeping bag. Mum's like, fucking hell, she's escaped, runs into the room, can't find her anywhere, under the fucking mattress.

SPEAKER_00

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01

Mum nearly had a fucking heart attack. She's like, Jesus Christ, she's gonna die of SIDS on my fucking watch or suffocation. No idea. Like I said, I don't know if it was Libby or Harry, probably Harry, but yeah, one of the two. And she was just like, How did does that even happen? Like, and didn't didn't stir, didn't like wake up on the camera or something. Yeah, like no movement, just nothing. Mum's like a child who's escaped. Yeah, just insane. That's fucked. But it's also hard, like we've also talked about comparison parenting and like if you have a child on the spectrum or you have your suspicions at 12 months, very hard to not then sit there going, well, my child's not doing that. Yeah, literally. But even like, to be fair, even me and you, like listening to how good she is, at least, at reading.

SPEAKER_00

Like she's definitely, and I feel like that was why she was probably brushed off for longer than what she should have been, is because she is quite intelligent.

SPEAKER_01

She's book smart, she's yeah, quite literally, but she's very intelligent. She's not delayed in that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like her speech and her social development is delayed, yeah. But everything else, like academic, she's probably ahead.

SPEAKER_01

Like and then also, you don't know with Adley like what her internal thoughts are. So, like exactly she could be smart, yeah. Yeah, she could be one of the best politicians in Australia right now, probably better than half the shit that's going on. You just don't know. Like well, that's what, yeah, that's what our psych said.

SPEAKER_00

Like, you know, the she could be the next prime minister. Well, the autistic people of the world, like they're the ones that are, you know, engineers and mathematicians and makes sense. All of that.

SPEAKER_01

And it's that hyper-focused thing too, isn't it? Yeah, like it's like, yeah. Doctors, surgeons, like I'm conscious what I say about my brother because he's now an adult, he's got his own life and career, but like as a kid, utterly obsessed and would have these like hyper fixations on like we watched the jungle book on video. Like, this is I mean, that's showing my age a little bit of like we used to have videos, but I remember watching that with my brother. Yeah, but we would watch it and rewind it and watch it and rewind it. So he'd watch it six times in a day, but we'd like destroy videos, like they would get so worn that we then had to throw them out. So it was like jungle book. To start, and then it was a toy story, and then it was you know, each as each year went by, like it was a different, obviously, obsession. And then he had this insane obsession with history, history in the military. And I don't know if that's partly because dad's military, but this just like hyperfixation, and even now loves history. Like, when to when to uni did a double degree in Chinese history and forensic science. Please tell me what the fuck you're gonna do with that. But that was what he was passionate about, and that was what he was interested in studying. And I don't know anything about Chinese history other than the Wall of China, and even then, I don't even know what the Great Wall of China was built. Was it to keep the rabbits out? Is that like the fence? I don't know. I have no idea. I don't know. But like he obviously just has that there is a part of him that just has this hyperfixation, and yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah, and he was he was like, Mum did all the testing when we were little, and yeah, this was 25 years ago. I just feel like it wasn't a thing. But back then you were put into a bucket, or you're putting into a specific category. There was no spectrum. Or you're the weird kid, and that's it.

SPEAKER_00

That's where it ended.

SPEAKER_01

Well, this is the thing, too, right? There's four years difference between me and my brother. So when we were kids, we had nothing to do with each other. He was a quiet kid in the corner, I was there, like as I'm sure you're so shocked. But like, we had nothing to do with each other, and then I look at my kids and they are just don't leave each other the fuck alone. Like they're constantly fighting, or they're playing beautifully, that's fine, but like they don't leave each other alone. Whereas me and my brother had nothing to do with each other. I mean, I really mean nothing until we were in our teen years, we had nothing to do with each other.

SPEAKER_00

See, me and my brother are five years apart, but like we were close. Yeah, we were probably, yeah, they're always fighting. And then I feel like we, you know, went apart. Like when I was a teenager and I was like, ew, what's this loser doing hanging around with him to get away?

SPEAKER_01

Is he older or younger?

SPEAKER_00

Younger. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, five thousand. I definitely had that, like, oh, he's my annoying little brother. But like he would like at some point we got a trampoline and he'd come home and he would then just go bounce on trampoline for hours. Like from the moment he came home from school to dinner time. Yeah, right. Like, so I would just then go do what I wanted to do. Like sensory, sensory impulse. Or definitely that mate, yeah, something. I don't think you'll ever listen to this podcast, but um, yeah, like just it's so interesting how every kid is just so different. And just so different. You just don't know.

SPEAKER_00

That's why they call it a spectrum.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, 100%. When did you realize that normal sleep advice just wasn't gonna work for your family?

SPEAKER_00

I don't know if I ever realized that it wasn't going to work. It was just not working, it was just this gut feeling that I had with her, and I don't know whether, like, I obviously suspected that I am also ASD.

SPEAKER_01

We've had that conversation, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I don't know if it's like, you know, kindred spirit. I just recognize that this isn't gonna work for her, like it's just not gonna happen. And I also was like obviously did a lot of research, you know, into like alternate sleep training, like you know, like the possums approach and all those kind of things that are like this out there for kids on the spectrum sleep training, or not really? Not necessarily like for kids on the spectrum, but it's more like okay, I don't want to do the traditional sleep training of letting them cry it out, yeah. But like what else is there? And like, you know, I feel like if you don't know anything about the possums approach, that's like the kids will take the sleep that they need, which I do if I let my yes, I don't necessarily agree with that either, but I was like, I feel like we're just somewhere in the middle. Mind you, she did stop napping completely before she was even two. Like she was on one nap a day well before she was 12 months old. Like she was just very low asleep.

SPEAKER_01

I think that's an ASD thing in regards to your daughter specifically. She's so eager to learn, yeah. So curious. And that it was something she almost has fear of missing out, like just wants to be awakened.

SPEAKER_00

Always said that from such a young age, she is a Fromo baby, yeah. And like, you know, people are like, oh, you know, that's not a thing, whatever. And I'm like, no, 100%. I know that she is a Fromo baby. Yeah, I don't know why.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but I know her brain's wired, and I also think she's just desperate to learn. Like we've just talked about her going to school, like she will thrive because she'll be getting to learn all this new stuff. Sure, I think she'll struggle because it will be behind where she's at. I think your school's gonna have to get their shit together and challenge her because I think she'll be sitting there bored.

SPEAKER_00

I really do a bit worried about that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And that'll be a conversation. Come back on next year and tell us how it's going.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But having said that, like with my second child, different signs, like no signs of the same.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, no signs at all. No, she's just a little bull buster. She's just, yeah, yeah, she is.

SPEAKER_01

Um also, isn't it crazy? Like, I I didn't expect because my kids are what, 14 months apart, I didn't expect them to be so different. And yes, I have a boy and a girl, so it's not like it's two girls or two boys, but they are chalk and cheese.

SPEAKER_00

It's fascinating, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01

Because you are the same parent. Yeah, I didn't expect it so young when you have such different personalities and two little people and such strong-willed personalities. Like I've talked about before. How do I break their will to my psychologist? And she's like, No, no, no, you need to nurture it. And I'm like, no, no, fuck off. How do I break it? Like, what's the straw that's like their listen to me? Fucking listen to me. No, I'm yeah. So you just find that she's completely just a different kid.

SPEAKER_00

She's completely different. And I also find with her, like in terms of sleep training, she responds better to traditional sleep training. And with her, I understand, like, okay, you're just whinging, like, you're not actually crying, you don't want me. You've just woken up, you're really shitty that you've woken up. But your husband's full on James is pretty much.

SPEAKER_01

And you'll go handle with him too, with her too, isn't he? Isn't it? Yeah, yeah. He helps settle a lot, he helps do those sort of wake-ups and resettles. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That makes a huge for some reason she sleeps better when he puts her down.

SPEAKER_01

So are you a softie though? Are you like you feed into the whining a little bit or not? Or why do you think it's a thing him versus you?

SPEAKER_00

I don't know if it started from when she was little and I was breastfeeding and whether it was the milk that she could smell the milk. So when you just put her down, it kind of didn't put her into a deep enough sleep. But that's just kind of continued on. Not that I'm mad about it, because it's not he's both hands. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know. Again, like she's a different child and she responds to different things. I've never had to sleep train her, like she's she went through a phase where she was not sleeping well, but she did sleep through the night pretty consistently from like maybe six, seven weeks old.

SPEAKER_01

I do feel like even with sleep training, we had periods of you know regressions and like and we just kept to the same routine and we just tried to keep things consistent and like so we can do. There's always ups and downs. Like I just said, like Harry's having a fucking shit show of sleep at the moment. Yeah, cannot figure it out. Livvy, angel. Like, don't hear from her from 7 p.m. She might get up at six o'clock and come in and go, Can I go watch TV now? I'm like, yep, go for it. Yeah. So it's just ebbs and flows. I mean, that's just parenting in general, really, yeah. Do you feel like sleep training is often promoted as a bit of a gold standard? Did you ever feel like you were failing because it wasn't working where you weren't following all these guides?

SPEAKER_00

And yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. And I don't know if that is like, is it influencer culture where, like, I'm sure anybody that's you know trying to sell a sleep training manual, they're gonna be giving it to an influencer, so then that's what you're going to be seeing. Like, are they getting paid to promote this even though it might not be working?

SPEAKER_01

And also who's posting at 4 a.m. with them will wake with their kid. I don't think I've seen a single influencer post the realities of what a night looks like. No, with a difficult child or like a colicky baby. Like, yeah, okay, they might like to be able to do it. Why would you? Because like that's not what you're gonna be doing.

SPEAKER_00

No, but that's not what you're gonna be doing. If you've got a kid who just will not stop crying, you're not going, oh I might record. This is a good opportunity to get my phone out. Like you're gonna be pulling your hair out, going, What the fuck is wrong with your child? Like, why can't I settle them?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I feel like I don't even know. Oh, so we went down the sleep training avenue. Was it Livvy was about three or four months, and I was rocking her to sleep at night, like farmers. Yes, I feel like you mentioned this. And I got to the point of rocking her so aggressively and having a moment of like, holy shit, this is why people shake babies. And I had to actually put her down in a cot. And I had a moment of like, fuck, like I need to calm down. I'm getting frustrated at this tiny little person that doesn't know what's wrong.

SPEAKER_00

I had to wake James up and I said, You have to take her because I'm gonna hurt her.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and that's so real and honest and raw because it was it was like holy shit, I fucking see why people shake babies because yeah, I am not okay right now. I'm getting really angry at this point. I'm so angry screaming at me and hasn't stopped screaming for the last two hours. So the next day I said we need to do something. And this was also in COVID, so we didn't have the option of like the council run. Um we didn't have the option of the sleep school or the help. We couldn't see the maternal health nest whenever we wanted. Um, it was quite restricted and yeah, didn't have family, didn't have the option of having my mum come and stay for the night or my mother-in-law, because both of which would jump on the opportunity and would have come and slept on the couch, wouldn't have given a shit and taken a night shift. Like totally fine. Um, but also felt like because of COVID, couldn't ask either. I reckon they both would have broken the rules to come and do it. But yeah, but you don't want to put anyone else at risk. My mum's also a nurse, so like I couldn't put her at risk. Ryan's mum's a carer of of um NDIS participants who have multiple complex disorders and things. You can't risk her getting sick. So really hard, and we went down the sleep avenue and we didn't do the hardcore sleep training of Cry It Out. It was the lady that we ended up hiring, shout out to Happy Sleepers and Christine, was a way of doing it, was like you're in the room and you stay in the room until they stop crying, and then you like move after three nights, you like aren't right next to their cot, you move a step out, and you slowly move the chair out, and then like you spend the like the night on the outside of the door, and like it was quite gradual, it wasn't quite so hardcore.

SPEAKER_00

Um, leave your child and if they vomit, don't make eye contact and just change the sheets and that's too full on.

SPEAKER_01

And I mean, I've also had to really work on empathy and whilst becoming a mum, because I grew up in a household, unless you were dying, bleeding, or dead, you got no kind of sympathy. I was in a very loving household, don't get me wrong. I was loved two pieces and I was showed affection and things. But if you were in pain or hurt, it was unless you're dying bleeding or dead, you get nothing. So it was very much like now my that's where my brain's wired. If my kids are crying, it's like there's nothing wrong with you. Correct. I'm a bit too tough in that regard. So I've really had to sort of dial into having a bit of empathy, and um I found it quite challenging sitting there with a screaming baby. Because it's like, what are you crying for? If you're tired, just go to sleep. What's wrong with you? Frustrating, really frustrating. Yeah. Um, or the opposite end of the spectrum where I'm like so tired, I just want to give them a cuddle and be like, if I cuddle, you'll be going to sleep. Yeah. Is this the option? So I found it good because it had the structure and it gave me rules and regulations of what needed to happen, and it worked for me. Yeah. If it didn't work, it would have been a very different story. Yeah. Um, but do you think, well, I mean, did you have well-meaning friends or family ever make you feel like you just weren't being consistent enough with the sleep? Or because you were also a COVID mum, so you didn't really have that input?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I don't reckon it was like, you know, you're not being consistent. You didn't feel good. It was more like, oh, like just do this because it worked for me. And I was like, that's great that it worked for you, but it's I know it's not gonna work for this child.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Like, I just know she's just wide different.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Do you think that her difficulty sleeping is actually about the sleep, or is it about the sensory processing, the anxiety, the regulation, or something else entirely? Because I know we've talked about sometimes she just needs to have a chat with you before bed and just decompress. Yeah, she does love having a chat. Or just talk to you about what's happened that day, or just read a book and decompress. It's actually not necessarily about the sleep, it's about just the way her brain is wired and how she needs to process the information of what's yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00

And I think that she, like from a very young age, she does process a lot of things at nighttime. I feel like her brain is so busy during the day, like absorbing information, and like she just she picks up on everything. And I feel like at night time that's her, like, okay, well, like this is what I want to do.

SPEAKER_01

I need to review everything, and this is my time to talk about it, and I need to talk to you, talk through everything that I've witnessed today.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I feel like her sleep struggles when she was younger and she wasn't able to talk. That was her, like she was just getting frustrated because she had so much going on and she needed to get it out, but she couldn't get it out.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. And she was almost like overwhelmed with wanting to express everything.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I just don't think that her brain could ever calm down enough to have a deep sleep. Have things calmed down now, or yeah, definitely. Um, she's a really good sleeper now. She sleeps pretty much like a log. I'd say about maybe 11 hours a night. Yeah, that's pretty good.

SPEAKER_01

What does a difficult night of sleep look like in your household? Even with Emmy, not just Adley.

SPEAKER_00

Um, I feel like the most difficult night that we've had recently is probably Adley being a bit unwell. Like she had some tummy issues a little while ago. Yeah, and it was just like obviously she was super unhappy because she wasn't feeling well, so she wasn't getting into a deep enough sleep, so she would just like toss and turn all night. So full disclosure, she sleeps with us because that's just how we get the most sleep. Yeah, she likes being close and I like it too. So have you got Emmy in with you as well? No, no. She um she wanted to be out of our room when she was like seven months. Yes, she just stopped sleeping in our room completely, and then when we put her in her room, she was fine. She was fine. So I hated that. I didn't want her to leave, but that's what she wanted.

SPEAKER_01

How dare you leave me?

SPEAKER_00

She chose that, that's fine. Um, yeah, Adley just sleeps better with us. She likes being close. I don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_01

Comfort, sensory sensory input of like hearing your breathing, maybe. It's the security of maybe.

SPEAKER_00

Um she loves white noise. We all love white noise though, to be fair. Um, also, what's helped her majorly is a weighted blanket. Okay. That puts her into a really deep sleep, which is helps her feel secure. Yeah, which is really nice. So that's been good. Um, but yeah, probably a shit night is just when they're both awake and they shouldn't be like or if someone's sick. Yeah, and they just set each other off, and it's like, oh my god, I just need one or both of you to go to sleep. Well, that's one. I don't care which one, pick one, just one of you, so then I can deal with the other.

SPEAKER_01

See those videos where like on TikTok and it's like the two toddlers talking to each other, and it's like, so who's gonna fuck up mum's night tonight? Oh, it's your turn, it's my turn. I feel like my kids definitely do that. And I feel bad when Harry's having a bad night because he'll wake Liv. Yeah. And my big thing at the moment is like Libby has school. She has to have a good night's sleep. And if she's not having a good night's sleep, she's gonna be back to school tomorrow. And she can't have a nap during the day while she's at school. So, Harry, if you're shit, you can have a nap at daycare, I don't care. But I just I'm conscious of her. So then she wakes up and then she's like, Harry's working.

SPEAKER_00

Like it's just yeah, that's probably a big thing too. Like, if Emmy's having a terrible night, it's like, alright, we've just gotta like we have to do whatever we have to do to keep her quiet. Yeah, because yeah, if it's a kind of day for Adley, like you know, she's there for the full day and it's not fair on her to have horrible sleep, and then like we know that when she has a not good sleep, she is quite grumpy at kinda, so we don't want that. It's not worth it, is it? No, no, not at all.

SPEAKER_01

What would you say to a parent of a newly diagnosed autistic child who feels pressured about sleep training? Or just like sleep in general, because I mean once you're getting diagnosed, you're probably past like that early stage of sleep training, but just a child that's having issues with sleep, oh, I think just go with your gut.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like oh, it's so hard. I feel like in the current world for mums, there's so much information, like you're just you can get overwhelmed, yeah. Like social media, I feel like there's so many things, and for me, especially going to the GP when my daughter was a lot younger, and them saying, No, no, she's fine, like she's presenting typical for like an 18-month-old. And I was like, No, I know that there's something not right, and I just think we get told like you know your child best, but then at every like door you knock on, they're like, No, like we're the professional, and it like it's just so hard, but just go with your gut, pull your gut in your ear. Like push, push for answers, like advocate for your own. Yep, especially those kids that you know, like mine that have a speech delay and they can't advocate for themselves, like you have to do it, and that was a big thing for me, like being strong enough to it's even harder having a girl too, because girls mask it so much better, so it's just different symptoms with a girl, and you do have to push harder.

SPEAKER_01

And yeah, I think that that's now coming to light a bit more, too, that there's a bit more understanding around that. Yeah, what do you think is one piece of sleep advice that you wish people would stop giving?

SPEAKER_00

I wish I wish that people would stop saying, like, oh, your baby should be sleeping 12 hours a night, because I think that's absolute crap. I just like 12 hours is just so unreasonable, I feel. Yeah, okay. And I feel like that is a sleep training culture thing. Like 12 hours a night is good. Standard, that's the goal. That's what you must be achieving for your kid to be arresting.

SPEAKER_01

No, and my knees can be up till 10, 11 o'clock and get up at 6 a.m. and or 5 a.m. and be fine and have a great day, not need a nap, not have a meltdown. She does not need 12 hours sleep. Yeah, doesn't need it. My kids do, and that's fine. But I need 12 hours sleep too, so like I'll get it. But like some kids just don't need that, they just don't need it.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, so I wish like not even like don't tell people that you know you need 12 hours sleep. Like, some kids may need 12 hours sleep, yeah, and that's fine. But also, if your kid is fine on nine hours sleep, then that's also fine. It's not ruining their brain development, like they're not gonna be behind. And yeah, that shits me.

SPEAKER_01

No, that's totally fair. Um, going a little bit deeper, so you've actually recently been diagnosed with postpartum depression. Um, what made you realize that something wasn't right? What made you realize you needed to go to the GP and talk to someone?

SPEAKER_00

My the biggest probably red flag for me was I was just getting so angry. And like the little things that I used to be able to cope with, like having both kids at me at once, I just was not handling that at all. And I was getting angry, and I just wasn't the mum that I wanted to be and that I knew that I could be. So I was like, something is just not right here. It's not just overwhelm, it's more than that. Yeah, yeah. And like normally, I'd say like prior to that, I was probably pretty good at like you know, self-regulating and all right, I can calm down from this and like just give mommy a minute and like we'll be fine. And it just wasn't helping, nothing was helping.

SPEAKER_01

Taking a few deep breaths just didn't help and like no, yeah, didn't cut it. I feel like I was the same when I before getting like I don't have postpartum depression, I have PMDD and just standard depression, but it could be postpartum depression. Just because I'm four years postpartum doesn't mean that it doesn't count as postpartum. I don't know what the limitations are on that.

SPEAKER_00

I actually the GP said it to me, and I don't remember if it's two years or three years birth. But it's a lot longer than what.

SPEAKER_01

Because I feel like I thought also I think kid having kids just can trigger a lot more, like it triggers that like childhood stuff. And I yeah, just used to wake up 10 out of 10 already being angry. Like, how dare you fucking wake me every day? And it was just I was not okay, I was not coping, I was not everything, everything would set me off. A spoon left in the sink, fucking fly off the wall. Shoes not put in the shoebox, fly off the wall. Like my poor kids, I reckon they just lived in fear for a good two years, and taking the medication has been a huge game changer. Oh yeah, literally. Yeah. And I'm not advocating for everyone to pop pills, but I think if it's needed, it's needed. 100%.

SPEAKER_00

I don't want to say it's changed my life. I feel like that's a bit dramatic. But can I handle things a lot better now? 100%.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm now jumping through like daisies and everything's great. It's just still have hard days, but I certainly got it.

SPEAKER_00

But I'm karma and I can manage those hard days a lot better.

SPEAKER_01

When the kids are having meltdowns, I can actually then get on the level and be like, it's okay. Yeah. Take a deep breath. Whereas before, I was like, get the fuck out of my face. Yeah, struck. I don't want to fucking hear it. Yeah. I don't need to hear it, get away from me. Um, yeah, 100%. Yeah, it's it's hard. And I feel like I have a few mums around me that are like everything's so great, and like I love being a mum, and I just wasn't having that feeling. Not that I hated being a mum, but I wasn't having that like everything's wonderful.

SPEAKER_00

I was like, Yeah, sort of like hardest thing I've ever done. You're like, why am I actually not enjoying this?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and why am I not enjoying that's actually perfect? Why am I not enjoying being with my kids? Yeah, and definitely glad that I seeked our help and yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00

I still feel like there is a lot of um stigma around it, especially again, social media, I'm really hating on social media at the moment. Yeah, but I feel like like it is, it's all the daisies and the rainbows, that's what's shown to you. And you feel like if you're not competing with that, like if you're not at that level, you're doing it wrong. Yeah, yeah. Like there's something wrong with you. Or what's wrong with me? Yeah, yeah. But like I mean, obviously, it's medical. I feel like everyone has the right to privacy, but I think that if you have a big platform. And you are taking antidepressants. Please let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_01

Tell people, like share it with a channel.

SPEAKER_00

Tell us how it changed your life. Tell us how you're better now.

SPEAKER_01

Because looking at your life going, oh, everything's amazing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And there's people out there struggling, and they'd probably feel shame having to go to the doctor and admit that they're struggling because it makes them look like a bad mum. But yeah. Everyone needs help. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I think it would be great for there to be a lot more honesty around that in mum culture, that's for sure. 100%. What's something people don't talk about enough in motherhood? That's a hard one. I think we've all been able to do that.

SPEAKER_00

I could write a massive list on things that people don't talk about. Nobody told me that my 15-month-old would be eating the rinse aid out of the dishwasher.

SPEAKER_01

I should lock the chemical cabinet, but not lock my dishwasher. Yeah. Um I don't know. Like I just feel like there's been a lot of stuff that I didn't think I'd be stressed about. So like I really thought like my biggest stresses would be is the bottle the right temperature? Is the bath the right temperature? Oh, that's right. But that's what I thought my hard parts were. And I thought like prior to having kids, I thought that was what the challenges would be. But right now it's like, am I enrolling in the right school?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, I've nobody thinks about that. I need a book on that.

SPEAKER_01

And like and at the right kinda kinder, um, is my child hitting the milestones? Oh, they're not hitting the milestones. What do I do then? Something's wrong. Yeah. Or are they just behind? Um, what are the way to do it? Do I worry? Yeah, like, and literally, where's the manual? Where where is the manual? Because it's I almost want, like, you know, those like, you know, the magazines, the girly magazines you used to get, and it was like, um, you know, who's your dream boyfriend? And it was like, Chad Michael Murray. Oh, yeah, yeah. And it'd be like, Do you like men with blonde hair? Yes or no. And you'd like go down that. I feel like we need something like that, but for like parenting, does your child sleep at night? Yes or no? Okay, no, go to that bubble. Okay, yeah, you know, and then feed down to like what the because I obviously understand there's so many things out there, but it's like I could get really overwhelmed looking up everything on Google. Um and yeah, like there's just I just thought parenting wouldn't be this stressful. I didn't expect it to be this stressful.

SPEAKER_00

No, 100%.

SPEAKER_01

I didn't think stress about things that I never thought would be something I would even have on my radar. Yeah. Plus trying to have a life, plus trying to be a wife, just plus trying to be a friend and like yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like, and I say this to everyone who like is younger than me or a mate that's younger than me, and they're like, oh, I just can't like can't wait to have kids. And I'm like, yes, you can. You actually have so much more time than you think.

SPEAKER_01

Go. I say that to my friends that don't have kids. I'm like, go and enjoy your Sunday breakfast a lot. Go travel. Go be able to walk out the house without having to pack a whole bag. Yeah. Go travel. Go see the world. Um, yeah, enjoy sleeping. Don't get up at 7 a.m. on Sunday to go to the gym. Fuck that. Go at 10 a.m. Have a fucking sleep in. Because to tell you what, once you have kids, that doesn't exist. Yeah. Um, and I know it sounds a bit like cliche, like, it's so hard to be a mum, but like no, but literally you don't realise how much time you have. Correct. And don't get me wrong, you can still travel with babies and you still do all the things, but like it's just different. It just sucks. It's just different. I actually saw this really funny thing, and it was like having a baby, you know, it doesn't change your whole world, and there's like videos of like everyone traveling with their babies. Oh. But having a toddler does, and then it's a video of the body. Trying to travel with a toddler. Yeah, the toddler's having a meltdown in the middle of like Venice, and you're like, Yeah, fuck that. I'm not fucking traveling with a toddler. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00

I said this this morning to my husband. We were out at breakfast, and yeah, Emmy, the 15-month-old, she was having a little tanty in the high chair, and I was like, God, I missed 12 months ago where I could just chuck her on the boob to keep her quiet.

SPEAKER_01

But we also missed that. We used to go for lunch every sorry, breakfast every Sunday at the coffee club. That was our routine every Sunday as a couple before having kids. And we came back from my honeymoon and we'd go do it, and we'd be like, Oh my god, this looks so great! Like when I'm happy. Happiness is then I was pregnant and I got really bad sickness, so we had to stop doing it because I couldn't fucking handle the fucking food. But once the baby's born, then COVID and shit. Yeah, you know. But now it also costs us. We went for breakfast at the weekend, it cost us $100.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01

And we were just like, Sorry? Like, is this sorry?

SPEAKER_00

Also, do the kids enjoy it? Do you even have a good party?

SPEAKER_01

Finish half the fucking food, or like we're constantly the whole time sitting there going, Can you use your empathy voice, please? Please stop yelling. Please stop yelling. Hey, sit down, hey, quiet, stop yelling. Hey, use your inside voice. Yeah. Shh. It's just like a different experience. Don't get me wrong, it's great, but you know, it would have it's also nice like we go have a dinner together. And it's so nice having an adult conversation that's not interrupted.

SPEAKER_00

Um or being able to like eat your food at the pace that you want to eat. And not have to shove it down because you know you gotta go.

SPEAKER_01

You you have to leave. Like they're not gonna sit here and patiently wait for you to finish your meal. Yeah, you need to be at the same pace. So if Harry's hoofing down pancakes, I need to hoof down my ex Benny because if he's finished, that's it, we gotta go. Like, there's no yeah, it's funny. You don't realise that stuff before having kids. No, you don't. Um what would you say to a mum listening who feels like everyone else is doing motherhood better than her? They're definitely not. I think that comes back to this honesty of like online presence and like people just posting the highlight reel.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like anyone can look like the best mum in the world for a photo and a 60-second reel. Like anyone can look like the best mum. Yeah, I just feel like don't compare your bad days or your struggles to someone's highlight reel.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Like you're always gonna feel bad about it.

SPEAKER_01

And that is the problem.

SPEAKER_00

Don't do it to yourself.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

And I feel like at any given time, as a mum, you are doing the best that you can possibly be doing.

SPEAKER_01

And even if that is having a bad day, you're having mental health problems and stuff. You're still doing the best that you are capable of.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, correct. Yeah, I agree. So no one's doing it better than you, they're just doing it like whatever you're seeing of that moment that you think they're better. That's just their best at that point in time.

SPEAKER_01

That was the highlight of the day.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. And that'll be yours tomorrow, or that'll be yours next week.

SPEAKER_01

Like let's be honest, not many mums are posting when they're locked into the toilet and they're trying to just get a moment of peace. Or like, yeah, literally.

SPEAKER_00

Isn't it true though? Like, that's that's another thing. Enjoy pooping alone. Yeah, enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01

Yesterday we were doing karaoke in the kitchen, we'd live, like, we had the microphones out and we're pretending to sing like we're doing like you know, seeing shallow by Lady Gaga and having a great time. And I was like, alright, I need to go to the toilet. So both kids then follow me to the bathroom. I'm like, guys, I understand we've just had like 45 minutes of like one-on-one time, like it's been so much fun. Please leave me alone. I need five minutes to myself to be able to go to the toilet. Get away. And then they wouldn't, they kept coming to the door. I'm like, guys, I just need five minutes. I will be back out there, I will be back one-on-one. Like, I will come play again, but I really need you just to give me a minute. I get poo fear. I can't poo if you're outside the door. Like, I just can't do it when there's an audience. I don't have a choice. Vlog's coming out whether you like it or not.

SPEAKER_00

They have to come out.

SPEAKER_01

One kid there, two kids there. I'm worried I'm gonna give myself stomach problems because I'm like, because I can't do it.

SPEAKER_00

Sometimes I'll be like, oh my god, James, can you just come and get these kids out? And then there'll be three people there.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and then James is also having a chat while she wants it up.

SPEAKER_00

It's great.

SPEAKER_01

It's so funny. What's your um this made me feel human again outside of motherhood?

SPEAKER_00

Oh god, I don't think I've found it yet.

SPEAKER_01

Are you enjoying book club? Are you enjoying getting out of it?

SPEAKER_00

I do, I really love book.

SPEAKER_01

But you are a big reader. You do it.

SPEAKER_00

I also love reading, yes.

SPEAKER_01

You do your audio books when you're putting the kids to bed and yeah, I do all of it.

SPEAKER_00

I normally have like two to three books on the go. And did you do that before having kids? Um, yes. I've always been a big reader. I feel like I started with Harry Potter. Yep. I definitely went off it. Not that I went off it, but I just didn't prioritize it when I had my first. And then it actually I actually got back into it when she was having her periods of waking up for multiple hours a night, and I was like, oh my god, I'm just hating this so much. And then I was like, why don't I read a book? Yeah, like I'm awake, give yourself something to do with it. I can have my phone light down really low, yeah, and I can actually be doing something that I enjoy at the same time as being there for her. Yeah, yeah. So I actually started reading, and I would do most of my reading between like the hours of buddy two and four o'clock in the morning. Yeah. And that made me get back into it again. And then yeah, I've sort of kept up with it ever since. Even when I had Emmy, I was like, you know what? I'm not gonna get angry again at the overnight wakes. I'm gonna use it to do things that I enjoy.

SPEAKER_01

Do you do anything else other than reading? Have you got any other hobbies? Other than coming to my house and drinking wine?

SPEAKER_00

Other than that. Oh, I love doing puzzles. Oh, that's so huge. I love puzzles.

SPEAKER_01

How do you find that with two small children then?

SPEAKER_00

I don't. Yeah, I'd like to say it's so hard to do. I know. What's funny is that my dad also loves doing puzzles, so he normally has one on the go at his house. So, like having a break, I normally go over on a Wednesday where Adley's a kindar and I've just got one. Yes. And they've got it like up high on a table out of the sweet, like let's just do a puzzle of like an hour.

SPEAKER_01

Our kids love puzzles, so I'm very happy to sit down and do a puzzle with them. But I also love a puzzle, so we've got a few like bigger puzzles that I've done.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And especially during COVID, I fucking love doing puzzles. But I would leave it on the dining table. So like when the kids are tiny, no issue. Just leave it on the dining table. Now they're both four and five, so they will touch it or they will thing is though the puzzle. Knock off a piece and then you never find it again. My daughter likes to eat the puzzle pieces, so which one the youngest?

SPEAKER_00

The youngest, yeah. We've um we've lost a few puzzles because she's eaten pieces.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a bit frustrating. I've seen these mats you can get though. Yes, where you can roll them up. Yeah. So I'm like, maybe I need to invest something like that. Um, but to be fair, I built like a um a booknook. So a little puzzle yet. That's cute. It was super cute until Harry pulled it off the shelf and smashed it. Yeah, okay. So now it's in pieces on top of my booknook, on top of my bookshelf. And I was so upset because I was like, it was a little mini bookshop. It had a light. Oh, it was so cute. Ryan got it for me for Christmas. It was such a thoughtful gift, and then yeah, Harry's pulled it off the shelf and just smashed it. And I was I'm not really that fussed. Like, I'm not a materialistic thing. If you broke it up, that's mine, and I built it. I built it and I put my time and effort into it. And the problem is I threw out the box and the instructions. So I now can't remake it. Put it back together. I don't even know what brand it is. I don't know how I'm annoyed. I am really annoyed. Finish this sentence.

SPEAKER_00

Motherhood is fucked by the look of your look. Oh no, I don't want to sound like too cliche, but I just feel like I'm torn between saying, yeah, motherhood is beautiful, motherhood is raw, like for me, this motherhood is the hardest thing I've ever done. Yeah, it is. I'll agree with that. It is the hardest thing I've ever done, but I also find it beautiful. Like it's the best thing I've ever done.

SPEAKER_01

And the most rewarding thing. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like that's I'm gonna sound like a try to lose it. I feel like that's my hobby. I've always wanted to be a mum.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I'm now a stay-at-home mum. Yep. Like I genuinely enjoy spending time with my kids. I love colouring, I love building Lego. Yeah, but that's my dad. Dad also loves being it later. Yeah. I don't know, I just love playing with them. I love being with them. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01

I love that for you.

SPEAKER_00

Not for me, but yeah, great.

SPEAKER_01

I feel like a dog. I mean, I definitely have struggles, obviously.

SPEAKER_00

I always said I'd be a mum.

SPEAKER_01

I always said I'd be a mum, whether it was naturally or whatever happened. Like if I couldn't conceive, I said I'd always be a mum. Like it was, it was not not an option. Um, but now I'm doing it. It is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Yeah. Um I definitely wouldn't change it. I'd never go back and change it, obviously. Like I just said it's more challenging than any dog. I mean any job. Dogs are also challenging. Well, dogs, yeah, I mean, yeah. But like dogs are easier to toy train than a body kid. But also, I feel like jobs have manuals, jobs have instructions and processes. Someone trains you. Correct, you get guidance, and yeah, which is why this village is so important, like why it's important to have other mums and friends that you can lean on and talk to, because it is it is really fucking hard, and it's good to know that you're not alone in that. But yes, share the good times, share the good things. Like Libby reading, like I said before, fucking amazing. I cannot I'm obsessed, like, and then I'm like, what's this? We go out, and I'm like, what's that sign say? And she just breaks it down, and it's just the best thing ever. Um, so I'm gonna take a grocery shopping this weekend and I'm gonna try and get it. That's a great idea. Yeah. So I normally do click and collect, so I'm gonna get her, I'm gonna take my click and click list, but I want to take her to the side. Oh yes, good idea. And then tell her, find me like rice. Yeah. And then try and find it, and then go, okay, which one's rice? And I just think it'll be really might take us three hours. I don't care, but I think it'll be really good like exercise.

SPEAKER_00

They do say that is, yeah, like the next step to do after like learning how to read.

SPEAKER_01

I think it'll be really fun.

SPEAKER_00

I think so too. All right, it's time for rapid fire. Wiggles or heppa pig? Oh, wiggles, hands down. Yep. Not Lockie though. I hate Loki. I've got beef with Loki. I hate him. Why do you have beef with Loki? I don't know, I just hate him. I hate his face. Um but I love John.

SPEAKER_01

Oh mate, John.

SPEAKER_00

Oh my god, and I love Sahai, I'm obsessed with her.

SPEAKER_01

She's a badass. And actually, she is amazing. Wiggles doesn't do her justice. Like her dancing is not five-time world champion. Yeah, she's not, she's not in her peak. Don't wiggles. No, no. Talk about the love. We had to cut the part while we talk shit about certain celebrities and we didn't get sued. But I no, I think that um, yeah, it doesn't do her justice. She is amazing. Her photos, like she's such an amazing dancer. The wiggles routines are just not enough. She needs to step about step out. Um, what's your favourite hidden snack? Are you a hider of snacks or you don't really do the snacks? says the lady that just did, you know, light and easy before we went holiday.

SPEAKER_00

Um, look, I also obviously oddly, you know, autistic, she is a picky eater, so I do try not to hide snacks because I want her to try whatever she wants to try. Um, but she's a big chip fan, so I've always got to hide my chips. Twisties probably. I hate when she has my twisties.

SPEAKER_01

Come on. Get off my twisties. Well, I mean I have one thing. What's your coffee order? Um probably a skinny cappuccino. Okay. And have you ever hidden from the kids? You don't really have the chance, do, do you? No, I don't really.

SPEAKER_00

So it's kind of hard. Also, with Adley, like, you know, speech delay, it's not like I can. You kind of need to be there for the time. I feel guilty. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's kind of fit.

SPEAKER_00

So no. Would I like to?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I mean, you're in a nice big house now, so you probably could if you wanted to.

SPEAKER_00

I do like closing the uh baby gates at the stairs. That mum guilt just kicks in. It does, especially around here.

SPEAKER_01

Mummy, where are you? See, I'm like, I hear mummy, where are you? And I'm like, don't make a sound. Just stay quiet, and they'll figure out they'll get distracted and they'll do something else.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm like, oh my god, she's talking and I have to respond.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. It's so different, isn't it? Like just such a different journey, 100%. Yeah. Um, what's your favourite swear word? And I'm gonna preface this, but I feel like I don't feel like you swear anywhere near as much as I do. Uh, maybe not from you. You know, Recon? I feel like I've I feel like you're very gentle. What's your favourite swear word?

SPEAKER_00

Um, I like to say fuck. Yep.

SPEAKER_01

Husband and pretty popular. Can I say the C word?

SPEAKER_00

You do you say the C word? Only to my husband.

SPEAKER_01

Only to your husband. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

What about other people? Or you call your husband the C word? I call my husband the seam. I feel like that's what we refer to each other a lot. It's like a joking manner.

SPEAKER_01

In Australia, it's like mate is like working see you next Tuesday. Oh my like is it like an aggressive like I'll fuck off, see you next Tuesday?

SPEAKER_00

I can't say it. It's really not a word I can like tomorrow. I don't even want to say this on the pod. Don't plug this. He has a band. So he's going to do band things tomorrow.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, like it's on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00

No, no. Um, so like he obviously had plans to do that. He's had plans to do that for a little bit, and then like we were doing this tonight. So I was like, okay, cool. Like you're going to do your band thing, I'm gonna go. I'm on kids tomorrow. You're on kids' yeah, that's cool. But then like jokingly, it'll be like, as if you fucking leave me on the weekend, you can't like you or actually we do say to each other, you're a fucking piece of shit.

SPEAKER_01

Very, very cool. If you're being left alone as a parent, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You're like, how dare you piece of shit. Or pretty much every morning when he goes to work. I'm like, you're a piece of shit.

SPEAKER_01

How dare you leave me at the UK? How dare you leave at home with these two psychos.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Especially your little bull buster at the moment.

SPEAKER_00

She is gonna send me to an early grave. I'm calling it so hard.

SPEAKER_01

It'd be great when the playground opens. We've got a playground being built at the end of our streets, so it'd be so good. So you send you can go get a good like half an hour, 45 minutes. And even if it's three times a day, who cares? Go run away. Yeah, we'll be up there multiple times a day. Yeah. We're excited to go have barbecues up there. Like we've already said, we're gonna take a pack of sausages up and just go an eskey. Do bunnings bunning sauce nights. That would be good. Um I do like to wrap up our episodes with a mum shout-out. Is there anyone you would like to give a mum shout out to this week?

SPEAKER_00

Yes. I've got a friend and she has like uh been given a pretty rough diagnosis for her child this week. And yeah, I just want to recognize that she's doing it tough, but she's doing so well. She's doing so much better than she thinks she's doing.

SPEAKER_01

And she knows who she is, we don't need to name and point out. Yeah, that's amazing. Well, everyone who's listening, you are doing better than you think. And if you yell today, that's totally okay because I absolutely did as well. Otherwise, I'll see you next week. Stay loud, mum.