AI & Os
AI & Os er ikke endnu en tech-podcast. Det er en samtale om magt, mennesker og den kunstige intelligens, der allerede former vores liv.
Med Veronica D'Souza som vært inviteres nogle af Danmarks stærkeste kvinder indenfor i studiet til ærlige samtaler om AI, etik, fremtid og alt det menneskelige midt i teknologien.
Hvem bygger fremtidens AI? Hvem bliver overset? Og hvordan sikrer vi, at teknologien udvikles med mennesker i centrum?
AI & Os er en ny dansk samfundspodcast udviklet af Connected Women in AI og Veronica D'Souza i samarbejde med KPMG og Twoday - til alle, der vil forstå teknologien, der former vores hverdag og fremtid.
AI & Os
Nermeen Ghoniem
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In this episode of AI & Os, host Veronica D’Souza talks with Nermeen Ghoniem about how to build a better AI future by actively involving younger generations in technology development and decision-making. Together, they explore why Europe must shift from restrictive regulation to competitive innovation, secure its own data sovereignty, and create meaningful roles for youth in shaping AI's trajectory rather than leaving them as passive consumers. Nermeen shares insights on why early tech exposure in education is critical, why AI careers must focus on value systems and governance rather than just coding, and how kids' natural curiosity and problem-solving abilities can inspire better innovation. They also dive into the critical societal choices ahead, including the risks of ceding data ownership to foreign corporations, the future of the workforce, and why responsibility for AI's impact must be shared across all of society.
The decisions we make today about AI will have consequences for the next generations. So, how can we involve children in deciding what that future should look like? My guest today is Namine Luisi Gonium. She's the founder of Hello Ada, an AI educational program for children where they build the futures they dream of. Nameen studied human-centered artificial intelligence at the Danish Technical University before most people had even heard of AI. She's worked as a data scientist at Microsoft, she spent time in Silicon Valley developing AI systems reading human faces, and today she's a tech program manager at the Lego Group. Nameen is also co-founder of Even Founders, a nonprofit that's built the largest database of women-founded companies in the Nordics. And in 2023, she was named one of Denmark's 20 AI talents to watch. Now, Nameen believes that if we want a better version of AI, it's not enough to regulate it. We'll have to build it with the people we're building it for. I'm your host, Veronica D'Souza. Welcome to AI and Us. Thank you. I've been looking so much forward to this conversation.
SPEAKER_00Likewise.
SPEAKER_01So I already gave somewhat of an intro to the listeners before you came in. But I would love to hear from you how you would introduce yourself in addition to a career and in addition to work.
SPEAKER_00Ooh, that's a hard question. I think my friends and colleagues would say that I am a very direct, honest, sassy woman in tech that knows what she wants. I also a really big science fiction fan, and I think I will talk a little bit about it later, but I think that's also one of the main reasons I got into the world of AI. And then I really care about equality and justice.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. I think you're pretty good at uh detecting you know that intro question. I think it is a hard question. I think you did that really well. So I I'm really curious because in many of these conversations about AI, you know, it's it's kind of a for many people it's it's a little bit of kind of a a recent well for me, I'm gonna restart that. Sorry. I'm really curious, Nameen. When when did you get into AI? Where were you in your life when you started discovering this?
SPEAKER_00It's really funny, uh, and kind of relates back to like the projects I'm doing. So I think around the age of 11, 12, I think I went to a French school in Copenhagen, and you're asked to choose between um science, economics, and literature. And I was all really good at mathematics, and but I really thought the world of movies was really interesting. And at the time I was watching uh Star Wars with my dad, and I was like, dad, it would be so cool to make a robot. And he's like, that's not possible because at this point, like even technology was a very like initial element of our everyday life. It wasn't as big uh of a component as it is today. And so I kind of moved through my high school degree thinking, oh, I'm just gonna stay close to the science part, but I didn't realize there was a computer science part to it. And so when I got into university, um, I found a degree that was called Communication IT, which um was a new degree at the time in the University of Copenhagen, which combined computer science and communication. And I thought, wow, I'm gonna get closer to my dream of building R2D2. Um, and whilst I was going through that degree, I got an opportunity to go to an exchange program in Hong Kong University of Science and Technology, and they had an AI program. And this is what year is this? This is 2016. And um mind you, I think um we didn't call it artificial intelligence. I think a lot of it was called audio signal processing, and then it moved into I think what we know machine learning, deep learning. So I think I've always done something related to AI, but not been calling it artificial intelligence. And I thought it was super interesting because I think humans are super intriguing. So, how do you tackle the challenge of recreating what we call intelligence in a computer? And that's also a little bit why I was attracted to the idea of a robot to begin with, this idea of having an extension of humanity. Um, and so when I came back to Denmark after my degree, I was able to study human-centered artificial intelligence, which is a very long fancy name. But I think basically we were studying a lot of big data, data science, machine learning, deep learning. And whilst I was going through that degree, I specialize a lot more into the field. But mind you, this is all before Chat GBT. So a lot of my professors were like, No meen, you're taking the wrong decision. You should focus on virtual reality. That's where the money is at because Apple had just bought a lot of iWare companies. Everyone was talking about the HoloLens, virtual reality, augmented reality. So I was like studying AI at a time where that was not the thing that you should be studying it. And now it's a bit funny to look back and be like, well, again, going back to my introduction. I feel like I know what I want, and ultimately it ended up being the right decision. So that's how I got interested.
SPEAKER_01So I'm just curious. I mean, we have to, we can't go to the present, but did you build R2D2?
SPEAKER_00I did not. I built like a virtual version of it. Um I think uh one of the kids I taught in coding classes uh has built like a small R2D2 that he uses to like wake him up in the morning, which I think is so cute. So I feel like by extension, like a mentee of mine maybe has built one, but I it's still gonna be uh maybe it's gonna be my plan for when I retire is to build like a very concrete R2D2. But right now I feel like it's it's a I've been humbled and realized it's a lot more work than you'd think.
SPEAKER_01So I mean, I just um I just want to recognize here that uh of course for all of us true Star Wars fans, I just want to commit to that as well. I gave birth to Star Wars.
SPEAKER_00You did?
SPEAKER_01I did.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh, how how what what do you mean?
SPEAKER_01I mean the labor process, right? Oh okay. Anyways, moving on. Let's talk about um what is interesting for you right now. I want to talk about Hello Ada and how you are spending a lot of your time and energy on equipping kind of the younger generation with tools and skill sets for AI. Can you just tell us about that? How you got started with it, what the project is about, what you're learning?
SPEAKER_00Yes. So I around 2022 moved to Silicon Valley to work in a newly acquired startup that Jabra had um acquired, and realized very quickly I was one of the only women in my neighborhood, in my company, and felt very lonely, first of all, but also more than anything, I think I it was the first time in my career that I was reminded that I was the only woman in the room. I knew I was in Denmark, but in the US, it's something people bring up in the conversation. And I think it left me to look at my everyday work with AI, and I was like, I think it's a deeply creative field. I think it's a field where I have to constantly problem solve and think of creative new ways to solve a problem because a lot of the task is we have this black box, and you're trying to understand intelligence, you need to understand how a computer works. And so I was wondering how come there's not more people like me, or just more women in general, more diversity, because it was very typical, like Silicon Valley sitcom. It was the three stereotypes of men that were there. And uh, I was kind of left wondering how how calm there's not more uh of other people. And I then looked into this study that I think Microsoft sponsored at the time, but it was done also with Venom's Fund and other uh organizations. And it said that basically, going back to also my story, I think a lot of your decisions about what you want to be, but especially what you don't want to be, gets decided around childhood. So around 11, you already have decided what you will not become. And unfortunately, that means also that all the stereotypes that you have of a field, and that specifically also applies to technology, where I think a lot of how we understand technology when we're younger is social media or gaming. So you don't have that concrete idea of what a career in technology looks like, such as, you know, a doctor, you know, that you help people. But what does a developer do? That's not something that anyone can relate to, and specifically not AI, because if you ask a child nowadays, and I think you can see in the TikTok comments sometimes, what do you want to be an AI developer? And you're like, no, that's bad for the environment. I take jobs away from people because again, it's fed by stereotypes. So I think I felt um very strongly connected to the mission of how do we embrace this new generation in understanding what it means to work in technology, but also understand that it's not a choice to engage in technology or not. I think especially the Nordics and your European Union are not very good at digital literacy. I think we would definitely take in the consumer face of technology rather than actually producing. We're not the Silicon Valley uh energy here. Um, and then I think specifically for Hello Ada, I think a lot of why I think kids are not engaging in creating technology is because it's not interesting to build a snake game because your teacher built a snake game. It's interesting to build a game with your pet because you love your pet. It's super interesting to build a recycling game because you want to help your mom with recycling. All of those elements of building an app or a game or prototype for something that solves something in your community, that's something that inspires kids. And so I think what we're focusing on in Hello Ada is how do you help kids get from A to B so with AI so that it's more motivational for them to get to see? So, how do you engage them in their process by giving them that first success? And that's especially something that um also relates to why girls get more intrigued by technology. I think it's like getting a storytelling, first of all. So that's making something personal, and then two, making it easy for them to see the first wins because kids nowadays feel very demotivated when it's just a block of text and it's like try to write the next line of code, and you're like, well, I don't know what this is to begin with. Um, so yeah, it's something I'm very passionate about because I feel like we've really let kids down. Um, and I think now we're also letting the youth down. Um, but I could talk about that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but I think we should. Yeah, I would love to hear. Like, what do you think that we have missed out on? And what are the kind of why? Why have we let people down?
SPEAKER_00I think there is not a sense of collaboration, I think, in society, unfortunately, at the moment, where I think, first of all, the school systems are super behind in the skills that are being taught to kids. I think that's something we've been talking about in it for ages. But the way you went to school, the when I went to schools, and the way that kids nowadays go to school is the same way. It's the same structure, the same kind of subjects. There's some elements that have changed, but the fact that it for so many years we've felt held the same system and infrastructure is a little bit weird considering that our society and environment are super different. And then, second of all, I think if you move it a little bit up to the older youth, so the ones that are getting a high school degree or university degree, we've also let them down because a lot of them are coming out with skills that are not useful for the market. I'm right now like in a position where a lot of young developers from different expertise areas, whether it's data science or AI or like full stack front-end, contacting me, being like, we we can't get into a company nowadays because right now everyone is trying to do an agentic framework or D can be replaced by AI agents. That's also what the big AI companies are saying that now uh an AI can can act like um a PhD student. What message are we then giving to the society and to the people that don't understand that? Of course, you still need a human in the loop, right? So I think there's two elements of it. I think the education path, but also we need to also embrace that there's a new generation of newly grads that are not finding their places. And this is very normal. I don't think it's the end of the world because if you look at the other industrial revolutions, there is a few years where people are destabilized and there's not enough jobs and people need to reframe how work is. But we need to also embrace and and talk about the problem and actually support the youth because right now we're ending up in a situation where a lot of older people stay in their jobs because they're very good at making decisions around AI, and then a lot of young people can even enter the job market and get the expertise to become better.
SPEAKER_01So let's I'm putting I'm putting circles on my PPO because you're saying so many things I want to follow up with you on. But I maybe let's go back to what are the skills that we need? Like what are you experiencing from the younger generation when you work with kids in Hello Ada? You know, what what are the skills that you think we should be teaching our kids and how do we involve them also in kind of shaping these conversations around AI so that we can integrate those perspectives much better in the technology going forward?
SPEAKER_00I think we need to focus on all the parameters around the development of it. So for me, I think if you look at AI, it's a very holistic system, right? So there is obviously the the deep technology of it and writing the algorithms and stuff like that. And I think with with AI, like if you just look at um the cloud code and cloud skills, a lot of those can be repeatable. Like there's a pattern in those. So that's not where we should be focusing on. I don't think we should be focusing on creating more software developers. Um, that's also what I teach in Hell ADM. Like, I want you to be able to understand the code. You don't need to learn how to write the code, but you need to understand what's written and be able to explain to someone else what is being written. So I think what we actually need to focus on is the value system around it. I think what we're moving towards is like we want to create superintelligence, we want to create like entities that think of themselves. But the first question that comes up is what does that mean? And what are values do we want to be represented? And I think China and the US are already much more in the lead of creating stuff, stuff that calls the AI scientists. And the first question that comes up to mind is like, okay, but how do we make sure it doesn't become evil? But what does evil become? Is that what the kids ask you? Yeah. How yeah, how does it not become evil? Because everyone has watched science fiction movies and there's always a robot at the end that kills everyone, right? But so but maybe, I mean, it's a great question, right?
SPEAKER_01I think also for the world we're living in right now, not just becomes, but what is it that we are building? So I think it's interesting that the kids are picking up on that.
SPEAKER_00Exactly, which goes back that I think we as humans have not aligned on our value systems and the definition of words as simple as I want a good AI, what does good mean? Because I think even between the European countries that are our closest like neighbors, I think being good, smiling, small like cultural differences already play uh an impact in our everyday language and communication with them. I feel like when I work with my French colleagues versus when I work with my German colleagues, I feel the difference. So, how do we explain to an entity this is how humans work and then explain all of the small finesses? I think that's where I would focus on is like how do you govern and understand human intelligence at that level. So, not what can just be like, oh, when you see an email, answer the email, because that's something easy to explain. But explaining how someone from China or from France or from Italy, how the small wordings and all that, I think that's where I think we need to become sharper at. And then I think also more from an economical point of view. I think we need to look at our society and decide when is it enough? When do we need to stop using AI? I think right now, unfortunately, a lot of the people that are making decisions with AI for like where it's implemented are not technical. And I think unfortunately, the ones that have developed AI are we're nerds. So we're just like, this is great, let's build it, you know?
SPEAKER_01The sci-fi lovers.
SPEAKER_00The sci-fi lovers, right? Yeah, because I think like if I look, I want to build R2D2. I I could build R2. R2 D2, I should build R2D2, and I will. But then if it starts acting weirdly, what what what do I do? Because I I just want to build it. I'm not thinking about, oh, I don't want it to to like hurt a child or hurt a dog, or I don't want it to do like I'm not thinking about the guardrails. I'm only thinking about I just want to build it. And that's great. And if the more I could do, the better, because then it gets me an ego booster.
SPEAKER_01But how do we how do we transfer you know the philosophy or the ethics or these kind of questions about what good and bad and evil and so on? How do you how do you work with kids around that? I mean, I'm also asking from a personal perspective, right? I think a lot of hopefully people who will be listening to this, like me, have kids in elementary school and are definitely experiencing kind of the school system being the same thing as it was five years ago and maybe 15 years ago and so on. And I don't know how what I should be teaching my kids or how to help them. What do you, you know, what can we do and how do we teach them these ethics and integrate them into this digital field?
SPEAKER_00I think I'm really sad to see how many people treat kids as if they're stupid. I think this whole, for example, if you just take this age uh restriction thing where now you're making social media 16 plus, if I remember correctly. And then I think within not even the next day, I had a coding class where one of the kids showed me how to install the VPN so that you didn't have to like go buy this age assurance. And I'm just sitting there and I'm like, the government has sat for a year discussing this rule and this policy and made a press release and explained this and that. And then a kid within not even an hour has already figured out how to like break through it. I'm like, sometimes I'm sitting there and I look at our policymakers, and mind you, like, I also am younger than I think the people making these decisions, and I'm like, how dumb do you think we are? And I think if we don't give the respect towards the kids of like, do you know much more and you're much more aware of what's happening, then you won't even involve them in the right conversations because you're talking to them about things that you're like, I already know that. But instead, if the problem is we're afraid of kids using too much technology, that their emotional attachment to AI is becoming problematic, that is one issue that we should address. But then talk with them about it and explain why it's a problem. Engage them. I feel like extend the same human attachment that you would for another person of your age or of your status or your peer. And I think that's where I see that when I look at the school system removing phones and like computers, because you're like, oh, that's bad for them. I'm like, what do you mean it's bad for them? We're all using our phones all the time. What type of image are we giving to kids who are like, I can use my phone because I know what I how to use it, but I've not taken a techno tech uh uh education, I or like a tech education. I have not got gotten digital literacy, but I know how to use it. And you, because you're a child, you cannot use it. What type of image are we giving off? And then you see, like, I don't think it's only kids that have a problem with technology and not understanding it. It's many generations. You can see the parents how to use technology, you can see the elderly, like my mom is addicted to TikTok, which I'm like, that's a really weird problem to have, to be like, okay, it's not just a kid. So I think maybe treating them at an eye level and communicating earnestly, but also I think, especially for the parents that don't know about technology, learn with your children and ask them questions. It's okay to not know what the real answer is, but learn with them instead of having this. I need to have all the answers, I need to be the superhero with all the answers in the room, because I don't think it's a field where anyone knows the answers. I know more, but that doesn't mean I know everything.
SPEAKER_01I'm getting a, I mean, I really enjoy you speaking so frankly, and I'm also sensing this like it's it's uh a little bit a provocation to me in a good way. Because I'm one of those parents. I um I told my my my my daughter who's 11 right now that she will be the last person. She will be the last person who will get access to at least some certain types of technology. Um so I'm gonna I'm rethinking about it, but you are definitely kind of getting getting me to think about how to deal with this, maybe in a different way. I want to ask you also, uh Nameen um in this kind of generational shift that we're seeing, what are some of the learnings that we can learn from the youth? Like what are some of kind of if you can distill from your work with kids and the next generation, what are you learning from them that you think we should all be hearing?
SPEAKER_00I think there's a lot. To learn from them. But I would say the primary thing that I'm super intrigued about is how many patterns and trends deconnect and how quick they are to like learn new things. I think if you, you know, everyone is saying that the attention span of a child is very short nowadays. But if you look at how much you are able to do within that short attention span, I think it's actually pretty cool. And you're much better at synthesizing and summarizing information. So I think you're better at like moving things a little bit forward, where I think we can sometimes get stuck in details that are not really important. I feel like every child I meet is very entrepreneurial in a lot of senses. And DC things both holistically, but are very good at focusing on, okay, for example, one of the children I was working with was talking about how his dad was looking at the news and was looking at the drones problem. Uh, I think it was around last year in the summer. And he was like, I don't get why adults spend so much time talking about the problem. Why don't you just and then he built this small app in Hella Ada where basically he had found a system to like identify the drones and was like, and then you just disconnect them and explain this. And obviously there's a lot of details that are wrong, but I think you're quicker at just being like, why don't we just do? And that's something I think we forget as growing up. I don't think it's a generational thing. I just think that as we grow older, we overcomplicate things to ourselves, and we're very good at say talking about the risks. I think MIT has this uh research group that created Scratch, which is like a block programming language, and you talk a lot about lifelong kindergarten. So, how do we keep that childlike intuition of like it's okay to fail fast? Because unfortunately, I think, or no, fortunately to a lot of degrees, we need to accept that AI will keep giving us surprises and we will keep failing before we fully have it in control. And I think if the grown-ups in the room do not accept the fact that, you know, you will fail before it becomes pretty or useful or efficient or whatever keyword you're focusing on in their strategy deck, then you won't ever get the full potential of AI. And I think there are kids a lot more like, oh, it didn't work, let me do it again. Get up on the bike again.
SPEAKER_01So they're born entrepreneurs. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00They are born entrepreneurs.
SPEAKER_01If you could if you could change the kind of education for kids right now, um, and kind of be a voice of just what you've learned from from kind of working with this group Let me rephrase. You mentioned when we spoke earlier on the phone that you see kind of a mismatch or a glitch between who are making decisions in AI right now and of course the younger generation who are gonna live with those decisions that are being made. And from you know, the learnings that you have with kind of working with youth, if you could come with suggestions to anyone listening, making decisions, uh what should be changed now so that uh kids get a bigger role in deciding their own future in terms of AI?
SPEAKER_00I think we need to speak less of restrictions and more of opportunities. And we need to give I think it's the same as you say in every corporate and you say every startup. You need to give children a Nord Star. What are we as a nation or as a European Union trying to achieve? Because right now, what has been given as a message is that we need to become better, the best AI app uh applic like application users or some sort. But what message is that? It's like, yeah, everyone else will do build the innovation and you need to be the best at applying that innovation. Is that a motivational North Star? I wouldn't say so. I wouldn't be very motivated in the fact that all I have to do is wait for other people to build something so I can use it afterwards. It's like looking at someone build a bike and be like, okay, then I can go bike on it afterwards. Of course that's fun, but I want to build a bike.
SPEAKER_01So that's a perfect segue to you, Namine. Yes. What is your North Star? What is it that you dream of from, you know, a girl growing up with sci-fi, wanting to build R2D2, this whole journey and giving back to children. Are you still passionate about what version of AI future are you passionate about and dreaming of? What is your North Star?
SPEAKER_00I think it would be nice to have a better ecosystem around AI. I think it's unfortunately mostly tech people talking about it and then business people talking about how to use it. I also look at us.
SPEAKER_01We're right here.
SPEAKER_00I I love this. I think this is super nice and it's needed. And I think it's nice that there's more ecosystem, also like connected women AI, that are like focusing on bridging this. But then I also, I think we talked about it on the phone, and it's very provoking. I want the European Union out of tech policy.
SPEAKER_01That is a very provoking statement. We have to unfold that. You have to unfold that a little differently.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So I think that the number one limitation at the moment in relation to innovation is because the EU has taken the stance of we want to build ethical AI. And I'm like, I don't think you know what ethical AI is, because no one really knows what ethical AI is, because we haven't built a value ecosystem or a value compass of what we want to build. And instead of them maybe tackling it with the receptor ecosystem, they've just put all these blockers and obstacles. And at the same time, you're promoting that the North Star idea of like we need to be the best at applied AI. Where I'm like, is that where we want to focus on? So I think you're first of all giving the wrong North Star. And I think it needs to be a little bit more competitive, a little bit more nation-driven. Second of all, I think you'd focus too much on regulations when you don't fully understand the technology. And I think going back to the parent uh example I was giving earlier, I would love the European Union to just come out and say, we don't know. We don't get it. Please help us. Talk to the tech ecosystem.
SPEAKER_01Okay, but now we have the tech person here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So if they don't get it, what should we do instead?
SPEAKER_00We should have our conversation openly with everyone. And I think right now it's like you're so stuck up in all these processes and in a way that the European Union has worked for so long with the parliament, the commission, the council, and the expert groups and the shadowing sessions. It's just so corporate when I think the ones that are moving the fastest with AI are the ones that are thinking more entrepreneurial, that are breakfast, the ones that are willing to take some of the obstacles. And of course, I think we should do it in a way that feels comfortable to the European Union's value system. And I think that's a conversation to be had. But I think you need to decentralize the regulation around technology because I think that's limiting our capability to dream big, first of all. But second of all, it's not allowing us to move at all. The fact that right now do you want us to use mostly AI models built in the European Union? How many of those there are there's basically mistral that is at that level and it's not performing the best? I would love for it to perform better. I would really love to. But I right now in Hello Aider, we're providing a Europe-hosted model, uh Danish-hosted like Danish-credated model, and then a European created model. And the one that doing the best are the American models, but that we're trying obviously to host here in Europe. But everyone is just stuck up in this. Oh, well, the EU say we need to focus on this. And I'm like, yeah, but then help them build better models so that we want to use them.
SPEAKER_01Instead of basically saying that, I mean, and I think there's a huge agreement in that in general that, you know, we've we've fallen behind in Europe. We can't compete currently. But where I hear you disagree, at least with some of the people that I've been speaking with, is that it's too unambitious, you say, that we should say, well, the train has left the station, so we're not gonna build any kind of the foundational stuff. We're just gonna focus on what we can, you know, the application parts, right? That's what I hear you challenge, right? Do you see a future where Europe, if we invested differently, maybe decentralized it and whatever kind of mechanism that would allow for innovation, would you see that we could become competitive or successful of how we measure that in terms of creating our own versions bottom up?
SPEAKER_00Definitely. I think Europe is very good at innovation. It's just we kill it and then send it somewhere else. That's that's the problem. I think we're very good at it. If you look at all like obviously there's the industrial revolution, we have a history of being able to innovate. But if you look at like the core innovations coming out of universities, the ones that are coming out of startups, they're great. What happens to them if they leave the continent? Yeah. And that's our problem. And the fact that, you know, obviously do you try to make it better and there is an open market, and there's a lot of things about European Union that I think are very great. I just think that you kill innovation for bureaucracy. And you're not able to act fast enough. I think things are already happening. The EU AI Act, I think it's a great example. I think you were very good at rebranding it into like, yes, within two years we're able to release it. You were writing it for five years. It was there's very public records. You were already talking, writing about AI because you knew it was gonna happen. But it took them chat well, Chat GPT for them to fully like get it out like very quickly. So do you're aware of the new technologies happening? Do you are talking to the ecosystem? But you're still going for all their 10,000 processes and all this political stuff and like making sure that this person is happy and that person is happy. And I'm like, does that matter though? Because the continent is burning. We're getting drone attacks every other week. We're investing a lot of money into defense tech, but all of that money is then re-imbursed into the US because all of the defense tech that is needed for the last, like the last supply of element of it is in the US. So all the money comes into Europe and then gets reinvested back outside and not reinvested back into the EU because right now we're regulating so hard. I'm just a little bit wondering if the people in charge of the innovation are fully understanding the urgency. And I don't think they are, because the older messages is that, yeah, we need cloud sovereignty, we need AI sovereignty. And I'm like, yeah, great. Love the hashtags. And what does that mean?
SPEAKER_01But there's, I think, uh, at least to my upbringing and kind of entrepreneurial experience, there's there's always been this conflict, right? Between the politicians are not moving fast enough and the entrepreneurs are complaining and saying, come on, you don't regulate in time, or you regulate too hard, or you don't understand innovation. I think that's kind of a an ongoing conflict, and particularly definitely with the EU, because we have so many member states and there's so much bureaucracy. So I think, at least in from in the startup environments that I've been part of, um that's you know, that's it's it hasn't been resolved. Um, but there's something new that I hear you say about AI, about this era that we're in. And you talk about a certain type of urgency, as if the politicians don't understand what is it that is so urgent now that is different than what it was some years ago.
SPEAKER_00I think very concretely my problem is that I think the new power in this new age is data. And I think AI is very driven by data. I think the only way that AI can can survive in its different application and in it in it becoming accurate or efficient is if it has good data. And all of our data is now owned or regulated, like owned by other entities, first of all, and then regulated in the wrong manner. I think that's an urgent problem. And I think it's more even more an urgent problem for the youth that identify themselves through data that is American.
SPEAKER_01So just to translate, because I I hope that we will have a lot of listeners who are not necessarily AI experts yet. But why is that a problem?
SPEAKER_00So if we take, for example, the Gen Zs, you know, we talk about TikTok and we talk about Instagram. How do you define themselves is very much through these social media applications. Every like, every algorithmic change for you, for you to see cat videos instead of Barbie videos instead of K-pop videos, whatever it is that you are interested in. All of that data, this information on you, that is controlled or regulated. When I say regulated, I mean like orchestrated for you, for non-European companies at the moment. I mean, there's regulations about how to document how we use it, but that doesn't really matter ultimately, because you can write whatever. It's not like the year is really going to read through all of that. But ultimately, how we shape the future generations' view on themselves and the world is through American or Chinese media. And you can see it already, where I'm obviously not agreeing with a lot of the politics around this, but I think in Denmark we talked a lot about how we've become more Americanized. We talk about vogue culture. That's not a Danish thing. It's something we've learned from media. But, you know, it's a nice concept, but it's not something that we have created because it was a problem in Denmark to be vogue or not to be vogue to a lot of degree. So I think there is a data element there where I feel like we're just giving all of our future generations data to all these big conglomerate conglomerates that are making money out of it, creating ads. And then at the same time, we give them all this data. So do you have even more power to create even more AI applications? Because we don't have the data. We don't own that data. It's owned by them. So we're creating this like vicious cycle where I feel like we don't want to invest in consumer tech. All our consumers, if if Microsoft Teams or Microsoft products were out of the European Union tomorrow, D would not be able to work. Because all of their, like 80% of their devices is running through American or like non-European uh tools. So we don't invest in consumer tech or any tech that is related to our everyday usage. And then we're like, oh, we're gonna focus on quantum and energy tech and health tech. And I'm like, yeah, great, that's that's cool. But we're not even securing the first bucket of data around the people that will use all of that. So I think we're the ones that have the power is ultimately the one that has the most information on the future generation, but also the current generation, and that's through consumer tech. And that's something that the European Union has decided not to really focus on.
SPEAKER_01So I'm always um asking my guests really hard questions in this podcast about a future that no one really knows about. But we need to be talking about it, and since you are uh so generously taking up um the seat today, I want to ask you, Namine, what are the most important things we need to take a stance on now and do in Europe in order to create a better AI future for our youth.
SPEAKER_00I think we as a society, and I'm saying as a society, I'm both talking about Denmark, but I'm also talking about our different friends in the European Union. And the reason I'm saying that is that Denmark is not strong enough to stand by itself. So I think we need to really align with the other countries because I think it's Europe as an entity that's strong. We need to agree on like what exactly we want to do with AI. I think it's here and we can get it in so many directions, but it's a little bit like the windmills. I think there needs to be a clear strategy of what exactly it wants to be doing. I think that is not super clear. I think it's going in a lot of different directions, and it's like, let's just put it everywhere and then see what happens. And I'm like, that's not a good strategy. That is like uh putting a child into a candy shop when it's hungry. It's like, yeah, everything is gonna be chosen. And I think that's not the strategy. So I think I would just like and appreciate everyone coming together. And when I say everyone, I mean not just tech people, not just business people. I would love to see people from the culture and arts, I think from health, from education sit together and be like, this is what we're gonna do. And then also choose what you don't want to do. Where is it that we don't, as a European Union, don't want AI to be doing? I don't think that is like clearly aligned because right now, um, I think OpenAI is running AI classrooms in Estonia. Is that a good strategy? I would say not. But you know, that is a strategy that the country has has decided on. And I think we need to decide on like where is it that we don't want to go? And then, second of all, I think we need to also create incentives for people to want to develop the innovation. I think with the windmill, for example, the incentivized free state programs that you could get money if you created the right one. Like it made it almost a competition. We love competitions as humans. We need to make it more of a competition to get back into the I race and remove all the unnecessary blockers, which again goes back to my other point, which is I think the European Union needs to decentralize tech policy and like look at like what is fundamentally needed and what is not needed. JDPR, not needed. I don't like, or like the cookie content thing. I feel like I understand that you need to ensure that people use it the right way, but do we need a thing saying accept the central cookies are all cookies? Like, even the idea behind if you look at the history, that's also just been created to serve a political reason, not necessarily a human need. So I think we need to look back at like the policies and decentralize it from all this machinery and instead of focus on what do we care about, what do we not want to happen, and then ensure the policies are around that. But that also means that you need to get the right people in the right room. But right now you're not talking to each other because of all these political, cultural, whatever reasons. And I think we need to take that away and you know, take your ego out of the equation and maybe just focus on what's good for humanity. Because right now it's ending in a situation where the future generation has mental health problems, are not able to think without AI because we've just left them to their own like premises. The older generation is just like, let's make more money, let's put AI in everything. And I'm like, okay, it could go, it could maybe be fine. Maybe in five years we're good if we continue doing nothing, but it probably sounds more like we're gonna end up in a bad sci-fi movie with no winners or no losers, just gonna be like a bad ending. So I think I'm not like pessimistic at all about the future. I I know we will figure it out, but I also want people to feel more urgency and involve the people and especially the future generation. I know that a five-year-old doesn't sound like the smartest person in the room, but you probably will have something smarter to say than a 40-year-old that has never touched. Ouch!
SPEAKER_01I was like, uh But yeah, I would I I could not agree more. Um There are a few things sorry, thank you so much, Namine. Also for giving your, I would say, you know, five points to what it what it is that we need to be doing as a consonant. Um you've mentioned so many interesting things through this conversation. Um and I just want to make sure that we just spend a little bit of time of going back and following up on some of the things that you kind of brought forward. Um one of them is the youth that are right now kind of left without being you know employed basically because they've trained in something else. You mentioned that as you know, we've we've failed them basically. What do you think we should do about that?
SPEAKER_00I think we need to align on like what jobs are needed going forward. I think, for example, I know that in our in the companies I work at, I'm very aware of like what positions are now needed in the AI wave. Because I fully tell them to embrace all AI tools, use all of it, learn from it, fail. And if you fail, it's fine, we'll have a press, like you know, like obviously I think there's some things that I have guardwills on so that the kids don't end up in a bad situation. But I think there is a uh let's say fairer, like let's learn from it and and go forward with it. But I think in the future, if you want to work in the world of technology, we need a lot more architects, we need a lot of people working with security, we need a lot more people working with fields related to like unit testing, QA, things like that, right? Because I think all of the big focus of what AI is gonna be needing going forward is how do we control it in some sense? That is the big topic for me. Is like you have this beast that could learn and learn so much, right? But it's like, how do you control it and help nurture it in a safe environment so it doesn't go fully rogue on you? What sci-fi movie are we in though? Terminator. I don't know. But you know, it could, I think it's a little bit like Frankenstein where we're like, I think you need to nurture the right environment around your AI. And when I say AI, I'm saying at multiple levels, right? Because the tools I'm not worried about. I don't think ChatGPT will go rogue on us, or you know, it's going rogue on some people on the internet, but that's that just seems like fake news. And then there is the models, and then there's obviously this like super intelligence and artificial general intelligence, which I don't really know yet if it's gonna be a full reality according to what we define it as right now, but it's something we're working towards.
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SPEAKER_00So I think if you're working towards it, I think the first question I would like to say is like, okay, well, if it becomes like that, what do we do if it doesn't go as we plan? How do we control it? And I think we need a lot more people working in those industries. And when you say control it, it's also like, how do we ensure the right guardrails are there for them? What do we teach it about humanity? And then another element that I'm super intrigued about is a lot of the data that AI is consuming is the ones that are digitally online, right? It's the ones that already are in the internet. There's many generations that are not using technologies. So there's also a historic element of like how do we preserve history or traditions or humanity in an age where everything that is online is reality.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00What is online is real, but my grandmother is not using any technology. Her version of reality, her version of what has happened, history, all of that, that's gonna be gone when she dies. If everything we decide is real is what is online, is what AI finds online.
SPEAKER_01I hope there will also be a life offline.
SPEAKER_00I hope so too, but I think that's not where we're working towards right now in terms of how we define reality and how we define, you know, because we're building true a society of efficiency. So everything should be online, everything should be automated. And I think the European Union is very good at being tech savvy, but that also means that we're losing parts of the population in this process.
SPEAKER_01You probably throughout the last kind of uh two or three years, we've seen quite a few people leave their positions who have been kind of deeply embedded with working with AI and developing AI. Have you ever had those considerations? I mean, you worked very close with the technology as well, and you know, you've been studying it, working closely with it throughout your lifetime. How do you how do you feel about that, the Frankenstein beast that we are somehow developing?
SPEAKER_00I have also had those thoughts. I would say it's it's not like the nicest environment to work in. I think a lot of my friends work in culture and art, so like our journalists, and I think there is this like I think we have put the blame a little bit on the tech people, but like you build this, control it. And I'm like, well, I I didn't know it was gonna be this thing because you just thought it was fun to build something. But now I feel like everything that I'm reading is leading up towards the tech people need to control it, control what the tech people build. But I'm like, that is like almost like removing all responsibilities from the rest of the society. And I think it's very much a blaming game, right? Because it's like the business people are using it, but like, well, if anything goes wrong, it's the tech people. And you know, everything is just like pointing fingers back at the people working with development, which doesn't make it a very attractive field to work in sometimes. And more than that, I think there is this this pop, this I think one of the main reasons I left Silicon Valley, I think, when when I was working there was because I was working there the year where ChatGPT came out. I had like I had six months of like, okay, like before it came out, but then everyone knew it was coming out, and I think no one expected it to blow up like it did. But it just puts so much pressure on everyone. Like I completely burned out. I was like, everyone just asked, can you do this and this and that and this? And you're sitting there and you're like trying to like keep calm, but you're like, everyone is not really keeping calm. And you're like, okay, and can you build this and also make sure it doesn't become evil? And you're like, but that what does that mean? And it's a very big responsibility to put on people, which goes back to why I was saying, I wish more people were interested in collaborating and supporting the tech industry and defining what those guardrails should be, because it's a lot to build and govern and observe something you build, right? It's like that's also why Frankenstein ends up badly. It's like one person controlling one entity.
SPEAKER_01So I think that's a perfect segue to our final kind of question. Yes. I mean, thank you so much. It's been a joy to to listen to you, kind of how your thoughts wander, but also your perspectives. And luckily, we have uh people like you in tech who are builders who care about equality, who care about you know decentralization and all of these things. So what would kind of be your wish? We always end this podcast with um a greeting to the listeners. Um what would be your advice to the listeners listening right now? Like what should they take with them and do um in this time, this really crucial time we're living in, so that we can shape this beast, or whatever we call it, superpower, depending on how you look at it, towards good.
SPEAKER_00I would say everyone should get involved and learn to use AI so that you can have an informed conversation on it. And I'm saying this not just because I feel like there's a sense of misinformation, but I feel like I wish we were speaking on it a little bit more urgently because it is a bigger impact on society. And I think right now we're not enough of the right people talking about it. I think it's very much we've been very good at making it so scary that some part of the society don't really want to engage with it in a in an informed conversation. Like you would like to use Chat GPT, but you don't want to talk about how ChatGBT is built, for example. Um so I think I would like for everyone to to maybe remove the stereotype of who builds with technology and with artificial intelligence and maybe just try to build a little bit. Vive coding has made it a lot easier. I think you know the kids can do it with Hello Ada, so I feel like anyone could do it. And then I also, maybe this is also related to obviously my passion area. I think have a very direct conversation with the children and ask them what you want, because it's their planet that you're impacting at the end of the day. We will all die at some point, and I think you will have to live at all the consequences of our decisions. So ask them what you want too, because I think it's a little bit cowardly that we're making so many decisions without involving the people that will live with those.
SPEAKER_01It's been such a pleasure having you here. Thank you so much, Nameen, for taking the time. It was brilliant. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.