Extraordinary Joe 02 Episode: Jonathan Rubenstein of Joe Coffee

Some people leave everything behind to build something special. Extraordinary Joe is a podcast that finds those people, sits down with them and goes deep.

Host Jeremy Lyman, co-founder of Birch Coffee in New York City, brings a rare insider's perspective to every conversation. From the first spark of an idea to the moments that almost broke them, these are the real stories behind the places that feel like home.

Because a truly great coffee shop is never just about the coffee.

Episode 02 : I sit down with Jonathan Rubinstein the founder of Joe Coffee, to talk about what it really took to build one of New York City's most iconic coffee brands. The risk, the vision, and what keeps him excited about his work today. I'm also thrilled to call Jonathan a friend. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Some coffee shops just feel different. The moment you walk in, something shifts. You feel it before you order. Maybe it's the music, the light, the way that someone looks up at you and says hi. It doesn't happen by accident. Someone made a thousand intentional decisions to create that feeling. And usually they gave up quite a bit to do it. Extraordinary Joe is a podcast about those people, the founders behind the world's most exceptional coffee shops. Their vision, their sacrifice, stories they maybe haven't told anyone. Because a truly great coffee shop is never just about the coffee. I'm Jeremy Lyman, co-founder of Birch Coffee in New York City, and this is Extraordinary Joe. My guest today is Jonathan Rubinstein. Jonathan is the founder of Joe Coffee, one of the most respected specialty coffee brands in New York City. And I'm also privileged to call him one of my closest friends in the business. Jonathan didn't open his first coffee shop because the market told him to do so. In 2003, there was no market. He created one. In a city that didn't know yet what it was missing, and he built something that became part of New York's identity. So, Jonathan, welcome to Extraordinary Joe. You are probably the New York pioneer for specialty coffee. You roll your eyes. But um I do believe that that is the case. I think that Joe set the stage for specialty coffee in New York City. Whether you were planning to do that or not, I I would imagine you just wanted to hang out in a coffee shop and enjoy your experience. And I think that's how most people start it. But uh yeah, I think what you've done for the industry is remarkable. And the fact that you're still doing it today is even more so. So Jonathan Rubinstein, owner of Joe Coffee in New York City, 2003.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

And uh yeah, it's just I I think I'm also it's a privilege for me to I I consider you one of like my closest industry friends. Of course. Which uh yeah, it's it's hard to do in in any industry, I think. And uh the fact that two business owners can get along and not be afraid. There's none of that.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

There's no like fear I never felt a bit of competition or or uh anything like that with you guys. I just always feel like we're friends who coexist in this world in New York and we support each other. And it's funny. I I don't mean to grab the conversation. Oh, please. This is about you. Expo West, which is the big natural fancy food show in Anaheim every year. It's a giant show. And I happen to know a lot of people in ice cream. Don't know why. I just the way that we grew up together, I also grew up with like all the founders of like these ice cream brands randomly. And one of them was talking to me there and saying, like, do you have relationships with other people who have coffee companies nationally or in New York? I'm like, oh yeah, like tons of friends, really friends with anyone who never didn't, anyone who never wronged me. I love them, I support them, I'm friends with them. And this person who is a very well-known ice cream shop uh uh company is like, yeah, it's not like that in ice cream. They're like, have never ever had like a friendly just conversation with any of the uh band of competitors. And I was so surprised and I was sort of bummed about that. But it doesn't even occur to me, like, sure, open a shop right next to me, put me out of business, and you're not my friend. But otherwise, like, great, we wanted to do the same thing and we did it. Let's all succeed. I mean, yeah, that's that's that has been my philosophy always. And I think that's why like I would say the same whenever I list like who are you friends with in coffee? Like Jeremy and Paul are always really the first two I think of.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Yeah. Uh well, well, thank you. And I I think that the moment I one of the moments for me that I felt like I had arrived in coffee was when you asked me a question. Because I think for the longest time I would just come to you and just pick your brain, ask you questions. And then I think there was one time where you called, I forget exactly maybe it was about cold brew. I don't remember. You had asked me a question, and I was like, oh my God.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

You added value.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

I was like, I think I think I know what I'm talking about because Jonathan Jonathan asked me a question. That's in your brain, but Grim. Yeah, no, I know. Oh well, everything that goes on is is in Yeah. And you know, when I was chatting with Paul, uh, the conversation was just um imposter syndrome. I mean, it's all I still have it. You still have it. Uh so let's let's just jump in. So uh why? Why do you still have it?

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Imposter syndrome? Yeah. Um why do I still have it? I still have it because I am not satisfied with my coffee knowledge, experience, understanding as culinary. I don't quite feel like I'm at like the top of the country, but I run this big coffee company. Um actually, wait, I do need to say I ran this big coffee company because two months ago exactly, um, I promoted a guy named Lee Harrison who has worked, we've worked together for 21 years, which is unbelievable. Um, and he had been COO for a number of years, and I promoted him to CEO in March, and I sort of stepped aside and have a new focus, which is just head of growth. So it's interesting because I talk about this now in the present, but in the past, but like I'm really not the person who's running the company day to day right now. And so it's a little strange to answer the questions, but I'm still very involved as his partner, and I think I can still speak as, but I should clarify that because he is the person who is heading the company into the future.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

But I I think you don't need to have all of the information about every single aspect of your business. And I think you are you strike me as the kind of person that if you don't know an answer to a question, you will happily say, that's a great question. I don't know the answer, but I will find out for you.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yeah. But maybe I feel like if someone said to me, could you go and do a big barista competition like Todd Carmichael once did, I'd say, No, I really don't feel the confidence that I have kept up quite with like the skill necessary. I can't roast coffee. I haven't made coffee behind the bar for since 15 years, because like you, I assume. I mean, I worked shifts for years upon years upon years. And to be completely honest, like I was never great barista. Like I was not one of the ones who cleared quickly when we used to have like barista clearance. I I remember very well early on a couple customers who would say, like, could that guy make my espresso? And so not you. Right. Um, I'm sure that I've gotten better, but um confidence-wise, no. I think the imposter syndrome also comes from starting a small business where I felt really confident being the HR person, the finance person, the GM, the train, whatever it was. And now the people I work with are so good that I don't feel confident I'm as good as any of them. I just get to sort of take the step back. And so it does, I mean, imposter syndrome, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

That's the goal. The goal is to work yourself out of a position.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Yeah, I think yes, yes, that's that is true. And I have come to realize recently, and this has really hit home with me, that many people open a coffee shop to open a coffee shop. They don't open a coffee shop. So 23 years later, they can sit behind a desk and like sweat over spreadsheets and work on this ADA lawsuit and you know, uh, whatever it is, like shop insurance rates and freak out because the cost of paper just went up and get upset because of what is happening in our country with tariffs, whatever it is, you lose. For me, like that was never the end goal. And so all of a sudden, when I had the opportunity to say, like, maybe I'll just focus on growth and someone else can think about those things. A lot of people are like, oh, that's your way, stepping out the door. You just don't want the responsibility. And no, it's it's that I'm so lucky to have the opportunity now to be able to focus on the things that I enjoy, the entrepreneurial parts that I think I'm better at than I was and or am running a medium-sized, you know, tens of millions of dollars in revenue business with 350 people who work there. I never set out for that. So it's okay. It's not a failure. It's just like, oh, how great and how lucky that I have someone who can do that work. But yeah, I I think, and I also think if I'm being totally transparent, like it's not ageism, but it there is a generational change. Like specialty coffee is and and upcoming trends and what the way media is in a lot of ways is like inherent to a certain, to certain generations. And, you know, 23 years later, like it is what it is. I'm not of that generation. I have to work harder. It doesn't come naturally. So that also is sort of a time where I feel a little bit like, do I know marketing these days? It's one of the most important parts of the business, or do you know, is it someone who is out of college for five years with a marketing degree? Do only they understand? So there is a little of that, but I am good at putting together a great team, and that is what our future is, period. Like that's it.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

So and I think specialty, it's become somewhat of a baseline, I for for the most part. Like just people buying independent coffee shops, just having that level of quality.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, that's for sure. That's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

So you said you you've got 350 employees, yeah. Um and that was not what you set out for. What what did like what was the original because I know you came from talent.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

You're a talent agent. Yes. Um, how long were you doing that?

SPEAKER_00 10:15

It really felt like forever. Uh four years. It was about four years. It wasn't long. Okay. Um, and I didn't, you know, I was never top of the game in that at all. I was climbing my way and working through it. And um I had a uh a last job that was extraordinarily intense. Okay. Um, and you know, the in New York City at least then, like also these jobs that were very intense like did not pay very well um at all. And I left that and I just did some soul searching. And I mean, I've told the story a million times. I was looking, I was entrepreneurial, I always was. I was looking at different businesses that excited me, and this was one of like four of them. Didn't know coffee because you'll understand this too, because this specialty coffee, you know, then we really called it third wave. Yeah, um, it just didn't exist in New York City. I mean, credit to Ken Nye, who opened his first place 9th Street Espresso before we did. Okay. Um had never been there, to be honest. It's interesting. I don't, you know, again, like the internet was so different that I I don't even I wasn't aware of it. I never visited it before I opened. I think I learned after we opened, oh, there's another place that's doing these. And I was like, that's great. Just the world was so different. Google Maps wasn't a thing.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Um, and um I think that a lot, so you know, I found a space. It was perfect. Is it the one? Is it on Waver? Waverly place K Street right by. Um, and you know, I always tell the famous story that um I you probably do this too. I sat outside with and made little slash marks of the number of people who walked by. Um, because it was a quiet street, it's not like a thoroughfare, and you worry a little bit and you don't know at that point like what is the correlation between pure foot traffic and customers. It's certainly not one-to-one. There are a lot of other factors, but we didn't know that. Um, and within maybe the first hour of counting, Sarah Jessica Parker walked by. Okay. And this was like the height of sex in the city. I was like, oh, this is it. Like, this is the spot. If like she's a neighbor, called the number, offered the asking rent, which was six thousand seven hundred fifty thousand dollars. I'll never forget. Yeah. That's a lot. It is a lot. It's still more than some of our Brooklyn locations 23 years later. That's a lot of people. Um, it's not a lot now, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

For that space.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

No, no, no, no, of course. Of course. Now, but then, yes, the economics were very different. Yeah. Um, and that was also a time that landlords did not want coffee shops. They did not want wet use, they did not want food, they did not want coffee shops, and they did not want people who did not have a business record. It was like a landlord's market then, for sure. Like I only saw, I remember in my memory, there were only two spots that could work in all of New York City. One was Waverly Place and one was like Third Avenue and 79th Street. And Third? Yeah. Okay. I think it was actually on 79th Street behind a bus stop. And it could have gone either way. And I don't think the business would have gone either way, but I think that that was a lucky.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Did you uh so and I had I had a very similar experience where I uh was that your first place in its first version? Well, the one on 27th Street. But that were you?

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Wait, was that the hotel or was that commerce I was there? That's when we met.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

We met, I think it was 96th Street. We met. At 96th Street. You had met Paul first. But I met one of you at your place. I was walking through Madison Square Park. What year would this have been? This was, I don't know, 2012, 2013.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

I mean again, but to paint a picture, you may not have been as early as we, but you are still a pioneer in specialty coffee in New York. I mean, we are all still of a very small generation of all of us by face, by name at that point for sure. Nobody had a coffee shop that we weren't aware of. Aaron Ross Powell, but I think you were maybe you were with Sally No, she wouldn't have been maybe she was born, but she wasn't born until 2009. Oh, she was definitely born. Oh.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

So we opened in 2009, but I didn't meet you for a few years. Okay. And I walked over to you. Yep, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

It was 96th Street because sorry, you were with Ron? No. I think uh some no, I don't I don't remember. Was he did he work with me? Yeah, I think so. Oh yeah, he was uh outside uh director of operations who became COO around 2018-ish. So I remember walking over to you, but I think I think it might have even been before where So yeah, when my daughter was born, yeah. For one year, we rented an apartment on 100th in Columbus.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Just as like the Whole Foods was being built. So you were three and a half. So and so we lived there. Were you there? 2013 is when we opened. Oh, you know what?

SPEAKER_02 15:05

We're gonna figure this out. We'll eventually figure it out. I don't think we need to waste our time figuring it out now. Sorry, everybody. Um so you okay. But back to like what the original version was it was it just one location?

SPEAKER_00 15:21

I wasn't mature enough. I wasn't old enough to have like a strategy for my life. I thought about opening a coffee shop, and I'm sure I thought like, who knows, maybe there'll be three. Right. Amanda Byron, who was my first hire, who worked with me through 2016, was like our first director of coffee. She had come to New York from Seattle to be an actor. And at that point, Seattle was the epicenter of near of specialty coffee in the country because of David Shilmer and really uh um um being the person who created latte art, at least as I understand it. And so she moved, and so that meant like we had someone who understood coffee. And um I do remember talking to her at like maybe there'll be three someday, but it was definitely never more than that. And at the beginning, it was just week to week. I'm sure you know that too. Just to just to just to stay open.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Um but I going back, I think this was where we got sidetracked. Yes. It was either the Upper East Side or the West Village. Yes. And the experience that I had was it was it had to be on Clinton between Stanton and Rivington. It was so that was where I wanted to open the conversation. I never knew that. And we had put in an offer on a space that was it was an old bar. I I think I had maybe like $8,000 in my in my bank account. And I'm like going back and forth with this guy, and he's just getting so fed up with dealing with someone who's I was just so on the fence. And then I had a call and say, Hey, I'm sorry, can't do it. And but I remember thinking like it's never gonna happen. That was the mentality where it's like if it wasn't there, it was never gonna happen. Yeah, and so when that fell through, I was like, Well, all right. And then I think I I I remember thinking, I'll just open a truck. I'll just start a truck. And that was, and then I called Paul and I was like, hey man, you're out.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Yeah. I was like, you're out. It's just it's uh it I'm doing a truck. Wow and that's gonna be it. And then I start researching trucks, and there was you couldn't. You couldn't do it. Yeah. So and then 27th Street fell into our lap. Like we got really, really lucky with that location. But I remember in the beginning thinking, like, no, this is not it.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Yeah, listen, luck is always timing and luck are always part of it, sometimes more than I like to admit, but I really do think so.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Yeah. So uh you uh you opened the first shop. How did you uh how did you raise money for it? Um I know that you opened it up with your folks and with your sister.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Yeah, I mean, I was really lucky. Um our budget to open the first store was $150,000. Remember that so well because we went over by $10,000, and that was like a crisis then, because when you raise $150,000, that's what you have. Um my dad raised the money through like friends and family at people he played golf with, and um at it was just a loan at a like nice interest rate, and they somehow trusted him and trusted me, which is nice and surprising because you know you would think like that's the last thing that you're thinking is gonna be successful. Did you put money in? I did not put money in. I didn't have money. Okay, um, I had been making like $35,000 a year. Okay. Um, I for that my I gave my dad 45% of the business, and I kept 45% of the business. Okay. And my sister, who was an aspiring opera singer who was working at Toyscher Chocolates in um Midtown, I just sort of was like, it was her 30th birthday, um, the month that we were opening. And so I was like, 10% for you, happy birthday, and you're gonna work here for minimum wage, which she did at the beginning because she was also good. Like she had worked in retail, she knew New York, she was so that's how we formulated the original LLC, J A G R, Jonathan Alice, Gabrielle, and Richard. Okay, which is still what it is now, but it's like Jigger 1, 2, 3, J or 26. Um, and that's how the original one was funded, and that's how my parents stayed involved. They kept that percentage. And I guess the first three or four, that was my job, my dad's job when we would open another. But that became easier and easier because early on they were all pretty successful for all the luck and timing reasons and the ability at that point to pioneer neighborhoods, which was definitely uh part of our special sauce and success. That was like, that was the luck and the timing that I think is hard to replicate now. If I'm talking someone out of doing coffee in New York City, is there are no neighborhoods to pioneer generally. And uh that's a huge competitive advantage because if you do it well, and we tried really hard, like you do, to do it well, people are gonna come to you first because you're in their neighborhood, they're gonna be loyal, and then 23 years later you hope to hear from people like Joe is still the old, you know, you know it. Yeah. It's like a weird, um, it's there's a little bit of a cult thing to like people's devotion to their brand of coffee, both the experience and the taste. And it's great, but um, you gotta grab them that first time and then you gotta be awesome. Where was your second? Our second was on East 13th between Fifth Avenue and University Place. With the steps, with the steps, yeah. Is that still there? It is still there. Yeah, um, the neighborhood has changed a lot, the block has changed a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

Um scaffolding up for quite a while.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

There was, it's that's been a challenging one. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I also learned that sometimes there is truth. Sometimes like coffee shops just live their life, and that a 20-something year run of a location is not always a bad thing. People think it's a failure. We've also closed coffee shops to the end of their lease because you make a choice 10 more years, or like, nah, it's just not worth it. And sometimes you just say, nah, nah, it's not worth it. So I don't know. You know, there are stores that are of that era that don't work the same way. People say taste change, the streets change, stairs, things like that. So that was number two. And what was three? Uh Chelsea, which is still there, and Grand Central, which is still there and always has been one of our highest performance.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Oh, yeah. I I love I love talking to you about Grand Central. I remember getting an email when I think your lease was up. Uh-huh. And I was surprised to get an email. Because I I didn't, this was uh what was this like 10 years ago?

SPEAKER_00 21:50

No, 2017.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

Yes, almost 10 years ago. My goodness.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

And we got it, I got an email because I don't think I knew how. It worked. Yeah. Within excuse. Yeah. And I said, Hey, are you not renewing? I remember this. I said, Are you not renewing Grand Central? He said, Oh my God, yes, we are. Please don't apply. That was that was exactly. And I said, Oh, of course. Of course not. Well, right.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

But not everybody heeded that. Correct. Yeah. That is true. Listen, it's it is, I've I've sort of come to understand in some some ways business is business. And I know people have different pressures. Uh, people have boards. Like, they don't always have a choice. Um, I know I've always said to my friends in coffee, of which, again, like I'm pretty much willing to be friends with anyone in coffee who is kind and nice and we share values. If like, I just want you to know, like we we say this all the time. Of course, if somebody sent me a spot that was going to impact your business, doesn't matter if that was going to be my most successful. I just I can't. I wouldn't. Yeah. And I think over the years, we've called each other quite a few times to ask, like, hey, this is questionable, or there's this opportunity, like, uh, what do you think? And we're honest. And I think a few times we've even been like, okay, it's not perfect for either of us, but like we get it.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

And we're well, that happened with the Todd Todd Snyder place. Right, right. You know, our best location was on 27th Street. And I remember you calling me, and I you were very you were like I remember that one.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Because it came from a new board member.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Correct. That was what that was what it was. And you said you said, hey. It wasn't asking. It was basically like I have to do this. And I remember thinking like, it's it's like I don't think it will have any sort of impact. And I also think that there had been something else in there before.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

And by the way, where the story goes, we failed.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah. Well, I mean that store closed too, our 27th Street. But that was uh that was a COVID casualty. And I'm not I'm not gonna go into that one because I have very, very strong feelings. Of course you do, I'm sure that you do. Uh but um what I was oh so yeah, you called to tell me about this location on 54th Street, which you said is way too small for us. Are you interested?

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

And I said yes, I'm very interested. And the first two years were very challenging. Very, very challenging. It was a hundred, it's a hundred square feet.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

And so and we opened it like you can walk in, customers can walk in, they do the thing, and it was, I mean, super tight, and it was just a bottleneck. And for the first two years, I was like, oh, Jonathan. Because I couldn't we couldn't figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

And now it is crushing.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Really?

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Yeah. So we closed you, it's a window.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

That's so great to know because you know, we have a window too, which is new.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

Yes. Um that was the one with the DOH.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Yeah, we had a crazy story. But uh Is that resolved? It is resolved. And just so everyone knows we don't have rats, it was a bathroom. Well, it was an accessibility bathroom issue for staff. Right, because they had to go out and go out, and the the two uh uh renters before us had been food establishments that were able to work with that. And somehow we helped the inspector decided that we had a different rule. Whatever it was, it was it was tough. We were close for almost a year. Oh wow, okay. Um someone sent me that one. I was like, no. Yeah, yeah. We we also wanted to get out of it when that was happening. You're like, it's just not worth the pain. But uh, it has since reopened. We have like the variants that we need, and it is doing well. But that is interesting because it's a window. It's it is a window, and it's a hundred square feet, but it did not work the first time. And we don't know why it's working now. It's like doing 30 more, 30 percent more business than when we opened the first time, and it was close for so long that to us it's new again. But yeah, we're happy, but I can't quite figure out why. Like you're saying for two years it didn't work and now it works. Why?

SPEAKER_02 26:04

That's well for two for two years, people were able to walk into it. Yeah, and it was just a complete change, huh?

SPEAKER_00 26:12

So it's up 60, 60 percent. Wow. One of my favorite coffee shops, two of my favorite coffee shops in the country that I used to revere. One was the original, original blue bottle on Linden Street or Linden Alley, that is basically a window, except it's bigger than a window, but you walk up to the side of a building and there's a cutout, and it is just magic, and the light is and it's like everything I'd ever want. Um and the other was Espresso Vivace uh in Seattle had their Broadway cafe, which was like a little something between two buildings, like an alley, which is also a dream. This was Seattle. Oh, in Seattle, but just the idea of it was so magic, and that's what we wanted to replicate. And I was surprised that it didn't work at the beginning. And uh it should, and it's a cool format, and it sure does keep down the ever-important like rent opex. Like those things are really important. The equation, if customers are there, it's a great business format.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

Yeah. Well, ours, I mean, it's on 54th Street between second and third. So we get a mix of commercial, we get a mix of residential, which is is just phenomenal. Um I think what there are a lot of similarities, I think, with how you operate as a business owner, how we operate as business owners. And I think one of the things that's been interesting is just your like you worked with your family.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Yeah. How because they say don't do that. I got lucky in this one. I mean, I don't have anything insightful. My parents let us do in whatever we wanted. They didn't never question, they just supported us. My sister found her path because at some point during the business, we started getting requests for like little pop-up catering things. Do you do them now as well? Well, we do, yeah. I know it isn't like a major focus, it had become for us over the years. And her whole job became running catering, which is now like a multimillion dollar, I mean not 50 million, um, that did like almost 1,500 events last year. So she has a job, a department. She she has her head down doing her thing, and it works. Um it's like three a day, five a day. Yeah, there's like a 70 people on that staff. Wow. You know, it's it's really crazy. When did that like when did that start? And how it happened organically over the years. It started with a box of coffee and it turned into whatever. Um, we just the opportunity was there and it still is there. A lot of other coffee places do this as well now. This was another thing that I think over the years we've learned to execute very well. We had to invest, like, I mean, we've hundreds of thousands, like then we have 17 espresso machines uh that sit in uh they get used almost every day. But see, there's like a lot of investment that went into over the years. Um, but that was organic. But for us, and jumping way ahead when COVID hit and we were in really bad shape, as I'm sure you were. We talked, I think, every day for a while at that point, supporting each other. Um, we had to really rely on uh growing the business in ways that were not in the four-wall space. And so that was obviously wholesale. It was catering, even though at the moment there wasn't going to be catering. It was like public education, it was just finding ways to do interesting things that did not need customers walking into a space that they couldn't walk into and that business was down, you know, what, 90%? I don't even remember when we had our little windows at every store for a while. I don't know how much business we did, a couple hundred dollars a day. I don't I know I think they started to pick up. I know we lost money at every location for quite a while.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

Well, for sure for sure.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

But I mean we ran open at a loss for many months when we could have saved money by just closing, but it was that combination of like the employees needing work and the neighbors. I don't even remember and us always thinking like maybe in a few weeks it'll get better. We just didn't know what to do. I don't know if anyone knew what to do. Yeah, of course nobody knew what to do. Um, but so we just started diversifying the business and we never went back. And we have found, especially in the last few years, that it has been easier and we have been more successful growing the business outside of the stores than in the stores right now. So we haven't like this will be the first year in the history of Joe, I believe. I'm pretty sure that we will not open any retail stores. Okay. Um but we still grow. Did you close any of this? Um no. Okay. But we did we've closed quite a few since COVID. Yeah. Um that was an unblemished record, unfortunately, that went away at some point. But wait, just during COVID?

SPEAKER_02 30:47

That was the first time? No, it was a year, a year and a half before COVID.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

So we made it like 15 years or something without ever closing a store. And they didn't. You've closed stores? Oh, yeah. We've closed projects. I don't always count projects that are like it's a project, what's like Snyder?

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Oh, okay. Stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Yeah, like things that are either long-term pop-ups or um an amenity where like there's no investment. There's no, they just say operate this, and it either works or it doesn't work. They end up never working. They never work. Yeah, I hate to say that, Jeremy. They I mean No, they don't. Yeah, I was talking to someone yesterday or or Friday, and I was going through in my head the number of projects we've done that have not worked within other people's something, and it's eight. Eight.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yeah, I think when you when when the approach is oh my god, this is gonna be the coolest thing ever. Without investment. It never works.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

We uh our our Puma. Yeah, I remember you were so excited. I was so excited. I got sneakers out of it.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

And a head, a massive, massive headache. Yeah. And a cool espresso machine. I will say the the suede on the espresso machine. Did Paul show you the espresso machine? I'll show you the espresso machine. Oh, suede. They it was the first time, according to the people at Puma that they had given suede that they use for their sneakers for an outside project. Yeah. And it clads our espresso machine. It's a beautiful machine. Yeah, that's our it's how we train.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

So cool. Listen, I do have to say, like, I don't I don't think that's universal. I think that the intentions of the operator and usually the landlord or the co-brand, like they really are good. Everybody wants it to work. Oh, I don't disagree with it. And they think it will, because every time we do one, I say, this one's gonna work, and here are the reasons. And then when I look back, it's always like, you fuck. And then we, you know, we do it again. Um but we're really not now because we just we can't, we need everything to have pretty quick ROI right now. Yeah. But you know, there, there, and there is, of course, like the brand alignment stuff. Like you get a lot for that with some of these partners, but it is really hard because our no matter what happens, no matter as the menu expands, no matter as prices go up for customers, which they've have, at the end of the day, we are a volume business. It doesn't work if you're not an in someone else's retail, you know, especially when you rely on like I think like 35% of your revenue in the first three hours, and they don't open until it just doesn't work. No matter how you slice it, it doesn't work. But bring me an amazing opportunity and I'm sure I'll do it.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Um Yeah, that we were on, I mean, they didn't open till probably 10 o'clock, and we were on the third floor. The third floor. And I think the mentality was, oh no, it's gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

Because you're gonna be a destination person. We yeah, it's really hard. It's hard. It's yeah, you have to do volume.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Uh was there was there any point in time where you considered just throwing in the towel?

SPEAKER_00 33:50

No.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

No.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

No. No. We were, you know, our we were at least as successful every time we opened a new shop in the early years, again, because it was New York City, you there weren't many, and there were four um, you know, known sort of entities in coffee that people talked about as specialty. And so they were the lines out the door were just real at that point. It was a different time in in coffee. So no, never. Um, no, I just wanted to grow it and do it longer. I I have I mean, there have been hard moments, but I do say sincerely to people all the time, like, I have loved this. I love it. I just feel so lucky. It has been the most exciting, like incredible, even when things have been really hard and scary, which wasn't just COVID. Love it.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

Yeah. And you got Did you get a degree in psychology? I do. Do you find that that applies to I Is that what your degree is in? No, it's not. But it's it's the one class that I took in college that I think applies more than any other class that I've ever taken. That is interesting. Well, I'm I'm customer service obsessed. Like obsessed. You wrote a book about it. I did. I did. Um but I I'm fascinated when when that's something that you like you actually studied. Has that been a huge focus for you, customer service? I mean, I know it's critical. I know it's anyone that says, oh no, it's just a problem.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

I mean, it's yeah, that is true. I mean, I do feel like everybody says it. Like, how do you not say, like, what's what what is that's great about your coffee shop? Our coffee's great. Our people are so like of course that's the thing. But I do also remember, uh, like it was yesterday, the day before we opened, you know, we're from the Midwest. And when we opened, I remember saying to the nine people who were like the first baristas around the table, like, we're here are the two things we're gonna do. Like, we're gonna blow people's minds with coffee because no one again had this was so different at the time. Yeah. And like we're gonna have people walking out saying, like, the people who work there are so nice. I remember saying, like, they're gonna be like blown away when you recognize their name or like the third time they come in. If you know their drinks, say it. Things that seem so rudimentary to us now, of course, those are given. It just wasn't. So when we opened, and in the environment of like Gay Street and Waverly with all the cool artists, like it was just an awesome, like first group of customers. Also, um, I think we were known for hospitality. And then I became upset, fixated. My hero is Danny Meyer, which is where the story becomes a beautiful story at some point. And he wrote this very famous book called Setting the Table, which really um, without in your face giving you hospitality lessons, just wove what made his restaurants and his restaurant company nationally known for having like what he called enlightened hospitality, which was just this feeling of going above and beyond and being on the side of the customer and exceeding expectations and just having people rave about the connection with the people who serve them or everybody they come in contact with. And again, like now we all know that, but at the time this was like a big thing. And I studied the book. And then at some point, a couple of years into it, my sister and I started teaching our staff the Danny Meyer book and like highlights, and we had a whole curriculum to make sure that our people were using what he called enlightened hospitality. I think at this point, uh, it wasn't like we weren't creating, we were copying it. You know, I think that's okay. Yeah. I mean, you have to start to I mean, I think then it became our own. But so that has been a huge focus. We're not perfect. It is one of the harder things about growing because it's very easy to control hospitality and like really be on it when you have 20 people work for you and you know them. But when you get to hundreds of people behind the counter at right now 23 locations and you don't know their names and you try, it's very hard. It's hard to hire, it's harder to train, it's harder to have the same authenticity. I think we've done a great job, but that's been something that has really been difficult to feel the same way that you can instill it with 350 that you could with nine, but you don't want the experience to be less and less than it was in 2003.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

And what do you do when they fail? Like something will keep them. I mean, hopefully, well, of course. Of course, the hope is that nobody is gonna but everybody has a bad day. 100%. And so when somebody does have a bad day, yeah, it at the I mean, it it falls on you, right? Do you f do you still feel that? Or is that something like if you read a review? Yeah. It kills me. Okay, still. Absolutely. Okay. Always will.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

And I love that about me. I mean, I don't I mean that funny, like I I really care. And it hurts my feeling. I take it personally.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

You take it personally. I absolutely do.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

I don't want to, I'm embarrassed.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

What you're embarrassed that you take it personally, or that it happens? That it happens. So what do you do? Like how walk me through, you read a bad review, and then what happens?

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Now that I'm not CEO, I go right to Lee, the CEO. We've sort of decided like at a certain point it's not appropriate for I would never, I would never give critical feedback to a staff person at this point in my career and the size, because and you may be the same way, I'm just a like, I'm just a person who has a job. That's the way I think about it. I don't think about if I walk into a Joe and I say to someone like, hey, could you do this? Or like, hey, I noticed, like, I don't realize apparently what the impact of that is. It's massive. But see, I don't see it that way because I think of it as being, I was behind the counter with you guys with one store, but I've come to understand it. So there's a chain of like what makes more sense, which now is to go to Lee and he'll sort of like filter what is important. And he luckily, you know, we have this incredible working relationship. We see things the same way. I can't think of a time when I've brought him something where he has not agreed or pushed back really, or so, and then he will talk to, depending on his relationship, the district manager or the manager, and we will take some notes. And if it turns out it's a trend, then there's a performance review. And then, you know, yeah, I mean, it doesn't happen often, but also because we put a lot of training in with managers and a lot of work into how we score people before we hire them. How do you do that? I mean, they there is a uh unbiased score sheet. There have to be multiple people who interview an incoming barista.

SPEAKER_02 40:33

Okay. And like coming and someone coming in, like the lowest like ring on the ladder.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Yeah. I mean, the truth is we so our you know, everyone has like their language over the years, and we call them bits. Barts barista in training. They're bit. Okay. And then you go through bar training, you take a test, and then you're cleared, and then you're a barista. You get raised and you have a different title. Do they work the register while they're a bit? Yeah. Yeah. They expedite mostly and they work the register and they sort of like take it in, and we're making sure it's a good fit before we invest like almost a thousand dollars to train someone. It's a lot of money between the person who's training them and their hourly wage and all of that and the product. And um, so it's a commitment on both ends. So we both sides make sure that it's worth the investment. Um, because another one of my old man lessons is I think I have learned that like when you get someone who gives bad hospitality or has a bad attitude, the skunking, it's another Danny Meyer, like what it does to the culture of that location, it's really bad. And then it becomes really hard to get rid of people just for generally not being awesome and always, you know, on point with their whatever. So um so we both make sure. And and that's how, but uh, you know, but when they're interviewed and hired now, it has to be more for us, more than one person. Um, they have like a pretty almost like judging coffee-tasting coffee. They have like a one through ten and a whole bunch of attributes, it's a little bit more scripted than it used to be because we have to find out some things, and some is organic, and then there's a feel, but um, there has to be an alignment as well of people that they scored well. And um potentially then they get this chance and they have to go through something called Joe 101, which is separate from training. Like I speak and my sister speaks, and that is like hospitality. Is it a history? Like a bunch of people. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Once a month for everyone who's been hired in the last month or haven't been able to get there for a scheduling reason, and it's all like four-day cup or coffees. So it's sort of like a come together from different stores and meet a bunch of us and Letox. And we've done that for at least 20 years now. Um yeah, and um you have good retention. Yeah, I mean, I don't have data. I think we do, and yeah, I I I don't really have a comparison, but um it'll when I anecdotally talk about it, it seems to surprise people. I don't I I don't know why.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Somebody asked me uh I was talking to somebody once about just retention and they asked me how many times I've been sued. Huh.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

By employees? Yeah. Oh, I've I've never been sued by an employee. Well, Joe has never been sued by an employee. That's like extraordinarily rare.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

Is it what but what are these things? Well, it's just uh you know, I mean, for wrong fro termination, all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 43:28

It's just and I don't want to go I I mean I I can't go on recording I would remember.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

Yeah. No, it's only happened to us once, but like that's but that was that that was this person's metric. And I was like, I was like, only once. He's like he was in shock.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Oh wow, interesting. Totally in shock. Yeah, no. Um customer, customer lawsuits, issues, uh small accidents, ADA, things like that.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

Yeah, it's small, like someone suits you over like a small like someone falling.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

Yeah. Oh well. Doesn't mean they won, but yeah, yeah, we have had a couple like slipping.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

So let's go back to the You talked about Danny Meyer.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

Which is that in 2017.

SPEAKER_02 44:13

Well, yeah, I mean that's where we're that's what I was gonna say. No, no, no, no. That's where I was gonna lead you back there. Yeah. So um you uh partnered up with Danny Meyer. And they and they invested in Joe.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

They invested in Joe.

SPEAKER_02 44:27

And I think that there's this right now within special within coffee and within chains and growing chains, there's I think there's this mentality that you can't really grow without taking on this outside capital in order to help you scale.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

Um so I'd love to get your thoughts because you did. We did. And I'd love to hear your positive experience, your negative experience about it. Um would you do it again if you had to? Would you not? I mean, uh just talk to me about that. I'm so curious. Um boy. All on the record.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Sure. I mean, uh if we look at history again, there was a period of time in New York coffee, and you lived through it when a lot of the big national chains were coming to New York. They weren't created in New York, but they were coming in because they had seen the success of Birch and Joe and Grumpy and like a whole bunch of places because specialty coffee now is becoming a thing. And a lot of us were creating companies, and you know, maybe there were 10 players then, and a lot of us had a few locations. So there was like now a coffee scene. I'm talking like, I don't know, 2015 about, I think. Um, and so Blue Bottle opened here, um, Stumtown opened here, Intelligentsia opened here. They opened in 2009. Yeah, I'm I don't know that my years are exact, but I'm saying there was a movement where all of a sudden the biggest names in specialty coffee in the country were in New York, and that was really scary. And I we were looking at our stores and sort of saying, like, they're pretty DIY, like it was just that's what it was. And we couldn't, like, we couldn't compete. We didn't feel like we had we started to see staff members going to those stores. They were paying some of them significantly more money because they had all of this investor money, you know, and they hadn't had years of experience in New York City of like seeing how the businesses work. It's also been interesting to see how even like pay scales have changed at some of these companies and some not for the better over the years, whereas a lot of the independents I think have really been able to and work to have better pay scales. And that's not absolute, but it's sort of anecdotal observation. So we were starting to like worry that we were no longer the top of the New York game. And that was, you know, ego. You want to be the you just you and I are the same way that way. Like you want to be the best at what you're doing. And and I, you know, I'm not embarrassed about that. Like you get a little competitive, like it still hurts my feelings when a list comes out of like the top coffee shops. It does. I mean, I get it. I get it. It does because you're also sort of like what's the criteria? Exactly. What is the fucking criteria? Exactly. Yeah. Um, yeah. But you know, and then I'll take a step back and someone will say, like, which would you rather be? Like a flash in the pan that was here for a couple years, or would you a place now that's super trendy with lights out the lines out the doors, or we'd rather be able to say, like, yeah, I'm a classic. Like, we've been doing this almost a quarter of a century. Like, I'm gonna take option B and you can't have everything. So, anyways, the point of my story is we decided that we wanted to also do something like that. And so we started looking ourselves. And the timing happened to be so that Danny Meyer, my hero, who I didn't know, but I had met a few times. He had come in for coffee. I remembered it, you know, super well. I solicited feedback. Anyway, um, they were starting a fund called Enlightened Hospitality Investments, and the fund was set up to help small food businesses scale and grow that sort of had similar uh missions and values and quality to University Hospitality Group, which you know, you know, we had built our business using their blueprint and their books. It was sort of like um, and we were their first investment. Now they have 22 over the years. Yeah. So it was a little more than nine years ago. Um, and it has been fantastic in some ways. We've gotten opportunities that I know we would not have. You know, we are in, we had to win them and stay there. But we are in basically all of Danny's restaurants, which is, you know, just as a host as wholesale accounts and marquee accounts, you know, Grammar City Tavern and over the years at Mayalino and Chisilmo and the Score Cafe. It's been amazing. But also they created daily provisions. We were part of that when it opened. So we've done the coffee and they're growing and expanding like crazy. So like it's brought us tremendous opportunity and cachet. And Danny and the company have a certain like pixie dust, and that's been amazing. They were also tremendously valuable during the pandemic.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

That's where like I always, when people ask me that question, say, like, I don't know that we would have made it. You made it. I don't know that we would have made it because I don't know how my family possibly would have, I don't know. I we would not have, I don't know what we would have done. I mean, um they were very generous, they were very understanding, they helped us rebuild and get to a much better place. And we're really grateful for that. Um it is different. Listen, it's different to have to answer to a board. Um I have contracts with a company, I you know, I don't plan to be terminated, but it is the legal right of the board and it is a different set of rules. But all in all, the positives absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

Um, so the the positives out uh were you gonna say outweigh the negatives, but what the negative in your mind was closing.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

The negative, yeah. I mean the negatives of the positives of being part of this organization far outweigh anything that I don't love about not being a sole proprietor family business who could do anything they want when they see fit.

SPEAKER_02 50:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:08

And sometimes that's a good thing because sometimes uh entrepreneurs need discipline. And boards bring you discipline. I mean, you don't have the same decision making. It's collaborative with a much bigger group of people. And the truth is at some point it's never happened to us, but something could come to a vote, and I could want to do something with a company that they don't agree with, and you and Paul can do it. I can't do it. I mean, that's not our relationship. That hasn't happened, but those are trade-offs, just knowing that you don't totally control your destiny in the same way.

SPEAKER_02 50:42

Do you is there any sort of fear around that? Or not really? Because you're I mean, you're you said in the beginning like you owned 45% of your company.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

I don't anymore. Not even close, no. But that was COVID related in that we are so appreciative. They, you know, they bought more shares to keep us in business. But that's also how it works with private equity. So no, I mean we're is it private equity? It's private equity. We are uh we're significant minority owners now, but also we're significantly minority owners of a company that is more than twice the size it was when they first invested. So less shares of something that is much bigger. Um, and who knows what'll happen. There's still another chapter to be written, and that's private equity.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

So something will change at some point, hopefully and probably for the best, the better. Um for for the people, for the company, for the for the growth, etc. Um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

What is where do you do you have an idea as to where you'd like to see it go?

SPEAKER_00 51:47

I would like to see it. I mean, there's the financial and then there's the like brand. Yeah. Brand, I would love to be named in the same sentences as the ones I mentioned earlier, intelligentsia stumptown. Sometimes we are, we're not, we're not the same size yet. Um, I don't think we have the same national reach, though. We have worked hard on that since COVID, especially. Um, so from a brand perspective, that's really what I'd like. I love to see, I'm sure you two, like little bits of Joe pop in places that are not New York. Once in a while, I'll just be in a place and be so surprised to see us on a shelf or being served or whatever it may be. And that's always a big thrill. And um, no, I mean, I have this incredible group of people that I work with. My my HQ, I mean, the bigger we've so many incredible people or for so long. But people I work directly with, and I want to make sure that they get great careers come out of this in the next steps. Like that's super important, and that they're part of whatever becomes, whatever Joe becomes. Um you know, and of course, then at some point, I don't know. I mean, I hope I can stay involved in some way. It's really fun. Maybe it won't be in as large a way as it was or is now as this head of growth job, which has been extremely busy as well. I've like, um I I've made some pretty lofty promises I have to deliver on to grow the company now, since that's my focus.

SPEAKER_02 53:14

Do you have any you can share as far as your promises? What's what's like one promise? This is what we're gonna do to make the company grow.

SPEAKER_00 53:22

I mean, the promises are a combination of like financially how much by what percentage or what dollar amount that's gonna grow. And it traditionally in that and like the wholesale department had been growing in the 20-something percent. I'm sorry. Year over year. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's been a huge, huge.

SPEAKER_02 53:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Yeah, it has been. The last couple years, especially, we've had some really good people running it. And, you know, like both of us also probably we created departments ourselves, and then at some point, sometimes they need to be professionalized. That happened as well in wholesale, really. Yeah, yeah. You brought a consultant in who sort of and and I sh I haven't said yet, but like so much of our success. We talk about coffee friends, is you literally brought us the roastery that is now our roastery when you outgrew it, which is one of the kindest things, probably the kindest, most meaningful thing anyone has ever done with Joe history, because it has allowed us to do amazing things, and you did it just because we're friends, I think, and it was win-win. Um, but I think that um I don't quite remember what this question was. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

Well, it's like like your promises.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

Oh, yeah. I mean, the promises are that I because I have built these relationships over the years, I can bring major enterprise clients, um, hotel chains, airlines, like big sorts of of projects that really move the needle, um, being my primary focus. And so that's what I've promised for this year is higher growth than 20%. And I have to deliver and it's been great so far. It's actually been really fun, but like the pressure's there because these deals have to become deals and close. And I'm trying to find interesting projects that are not just wholesale but are like experiential. We're also doing our first um, we're doing our first product launch with like a content creator and trying new kinds of marketing. Like that falls under me. So it's fun and it's different. And it's only been two months, but I'm really enjoying it. But I am, but I'm working hard and uh I'm not taking it for granted.

SPEAKER_02 55:21

Harder or different?

SPEAKER_00 55:24

At this moment, it almost feels harder.

SPEAKER_02 55:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:27

It's more focused in a different way. And I have to do the work rather than talk to people who are doing the work and strategize with them. I think I've been working actually more hours the last like two months. Um, but it I'm hoping it's somewhat temporary. Just brought someone in who's incredible as our like senior director of wholesale. So a lot of the work.

SPEAKER_02 55:49

That person whose name I I you didn't tell me, but uh Altamirano.

SPEAKER_00 55:54

Um, right.

SPEAKER_02 55:56

Well, I think at SCA we're talking about somebody who you were really excited about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

We've worked on the other end of the phone with her for years with companies including Odeco, who you also introduced us to many years ago, and have been a big part of both of our businesses. Don't hold that again. No, no, no. It's a that's an interesting business to focus now. Because boy, has that changed from what when we were the first two customers and now they have 14,000 apparently. Yeah, it's a big big company. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:22

Um, so we'll do like just rapid, rapid fire. I think, yeah. Um what's the most overrated trend in coffee?

SPEAKER_00 56:33

I've enjoyed all of these trends. I never thought overrated. I'm surprised uh to enjoy them so much. Overrated. It's definitely not cold foam because I cannot get enough of it.

SPEAKER_02 56:45

Okay, I love it too.

SPEAKER_00 56:46

Um and But I think it's here to stay. Yeah, I think it's to stick around. Name some trends, and I'll tell you what I think. I can't think of any that are like energy, you know, these sparkling protein. There you go. Protein coffee. I'm gonna roll my eyes at that. That's gotta be a trend.

SPEAKER_02 57:01

All right.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

I I'm gotta be a trend. I'm on board with that. Yeah. I feel about it the way I felt about the olive oil coffee when Starbucks rolled it out. That did not last long at all. That's exactly what I mean. So I that's how I feel about this protein stuff. I'm seeing it on New York menus, but I I don't believe in it.

SPEAKER_02 57:17

Okay. Do you believe in ghosts?

SPEAKER_00 57:19

No, I don't. You don't.

SPEAKER_02 57:21

Um Do you have a go-to karaoke song?

SPEAKER_00 57:26

No. I'm too I I'm actually very shy with certain things like that.

SPEAKER_02 57:30

I always was. Yeah. But I have one one Beatles song that I will sing, which is Why Don't We Do It in the Road? I think that's the easiest song. I can't do it. I get very self-conscious. Can't do it. Um do you have a uh what's the weirdest thing a customer has ever said to you?

SPEAKER_00 57:51

Um I mean, a customer cornered me once and told me they were in love with me. I mean kind of weird, but that's like kind of creepy and oh it was. But I mean it was so forward and even telling them that I'm actually gay, which I am, did not have a conversation. It's a woman. Yeah. Yeah. Um I've I I I mean, we've had some obviously crazy stories and just like nutty things happen within the stores someday. I'm gonna write a second book. I did have a book in 2011.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

Joe, right?

SPEAKER_00 58:26

I think it was Joe the Coffee Book.

SPEAKER_02 58:28

Joe the Coffee Book. I found it on Amazon.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

Yeah, it's still around.

SPEAKER_02 58:32

There's no information on it. I think you can only buy it secondhand.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

I mean, also to be honest, yeah, it's not it's not something at this point that I think has stayed relevant. I mean, it was written a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 58:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

Um it was a lot more, it's just about our culture. And anyway, yeah, it's fun for me to read, but I did it.

SPEAKER_02 58:47

Do you have a a hill that you would die on?

SPEAKER_00 58:50

Coffee being made by robots. And I and it's funny, but it's also not because you're seeing it a little bit. And um, as soon as the human interaction is not part of that, I don't want to do the coffee shop thing anymore because that makes me really sad.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:06

That was so fun.

SPEAKER_02 59:08

Yeah, this was great. Um thanks for thanks for tuning in to everyone who is tuning in. And um yeah, I'm I'm really looking forward to seeing where you go next.

SPEAKER_00 59:18

Aaron Powell I'm really looking forward to seeing where you go next. It will be very fun someday, 20 years from now. I'm sure we'll be friends to just look back and see where our companies are, where coffee is in the country.

SPEAKER_02 59:31

Aaron Powell I I think I will work with you in the future. Like in the near future. I feel like I will work with you. Yeah, I have thoughts. But we'll we'll chat more. Okay. That tricks me. Yeah. It's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 59:44

Nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_02 59:49

Well, that's it for today's episode of Extraordinary Joe. If this conversation meant something to you, the best thing you could do is share it with someone who you think might need to hear it. Uh, please leave us a review, hit subscribe, and come back for the next episode. You can find Extraordinary Joe wherever you listen to podcasts, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and check out the video on YouTube. Uh links are gonna be in the show notes. And if you want to stay connected between episodes, you can follow us on Instagram. You can find the show at Extraordinary Joe Podcast on Instagram, and you can follow me at Coffee TogGuy on Instagram as well. You can also follow BirchCoffee at BirchCoffee. The episode was produced and edited by myself and Benjamin Keynes, and the theme music was composed by yours truly. Until next time, keep it extraordinary.