Extraordinary Joe 04 Episode: Sheldon Pinto of The Order

Some people leave everything behind to build something special. Extraordinary Joe is a podcast that finds those people, sits down with them and goes deep.

Host Jeremy Lyman, co-founder of Birch Coffee in New York City, brings a rare insider's perspective to every conversation. From the first spark of an idea to the moments that almost broke them, these are the real stories behind the places that feel like home.

Because a truly great coffee shop is never just about the coffee.

Episode 04 : On this week's episode, I sit down with Sheldon Pinto, co-founder of The Order in South Orange, New Jersey. This one got away from us in the best possible way.

Sheldon and his family built something really special in South Orange. Great coffee with incredible hospitality unless you try to modify a menu item.  We get into what it was actually like to open a business with your whole family, make it through a pandemic six months after opening, and keep showing up for your community every single day.

We also covered dogs, ghosts, Harry Potter, and the true value of time.

Ironically, our longest episode yet.

Watch on YouTube (coming soon)

Follow us on Instagram:   @extraordinaryjoepodcast @coffeedogguy

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Some coffee shops just feel different. The moment you walk in, something shifts. You feel it before you order. Maybe it's the music, the light, the way that someone looks up at you and says hi. It doesn't happen by accident. Someone made a thousand intentional decisions to create that feeling. And usually they gave up quite a bit to do it. Extraordinary Joe is a podcast about those people, the founders behind the world's most exceptional coffee shops, their vision, their sacrifice, the stories they maybe haven't told anyone. Because a truly great coffee shop is never just about the coffee. I'm Jeremy Lyman, co-founder of Birch Coffee in New York City, and this is Extraordinary Joe. My guest today is Sheldon Pinto, the co-founder of The Order in South Orange, New Jersey. Sheldon has a degree in mechanical engineering. His plan was to fix cars. Instead, he ended up behind an espresso machine fixing his regular morning coffee. Since 2019, he and his family have built something extraordinary. On today's episode, we get into what it actually took to open the business and navigate during one of the hardest periods any small business has ever faced. The order has become something the community couldn't imagine living without. Sheldon, welcome to Extraordinary Joe. Sheldon, is it Pinto? Is that Pinto? Like the bean.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Like the bean, like the failed Ford car? Like the fencing company, garbage company.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

There's a garbage company called. We'll go with the bean. Like the bean. Like the, you know. The bean. Furry burrito. Spotlet, exactly. Uh-huh. Do you do you eat burrito, tacos? 100%. Okay. 100%. Um I didn't start eating. I really didn't start eat exploring, like having new cuisines until later in life. Do you feel like you missed out? Yeah. You know how old I was? You want to guess how old I was the first time I had ketchup? No, no. Wait, ketchup. Ketchup. Yeah. You weren't expecting me to say ketchup. No, not at all. Guess how old I was when I started when I had ketchup for the first time. Twenty-two. Nineteen. Freshman year in college or sophomore year in college. Yeah. It was the same year I lost my word for you. It was a wild year. It was like ketchup and uh anyway.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

What was the first dish you had ketchup with? That's the question.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

I I'm not gonna say I'm not embarrassed to say it. It was probably I was in college, it was probably with pasta.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Oh I was scared you were gonna say steak.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Yeah, oh no. I uh Oh, that's gross though. Yeah, no, I that's that's the sentiment I think most people have when it comes to uh you should never have like that's it's a sacrilegious year. Correct. I don't even I don't think it was with uh yeah, I don't think it was with French fries or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Oh, that's hysterical.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Yeah. So it was a but it was a big year for me. It was a very exciting year. 100%. Um So you are you from Jersey?

SPEAKER_02 3:19

I was born in New York. Okay, but when my I turned four, we all relocated to Jersey, where we bought our house that we lived in for 20 years. Okay. Where in Jersey? North? Bergenfield, up north. Okay. It's right by Bramis and Teaneck, stuff like that. So those 20 years, my whole elementary school, middle school, high school, commute my early years of commuting at college. I'm sorry, all my years commuted at college right at that house.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

And did you are you an engineer? I studied mechanical engineering and applied math. Okay. And now I make lattes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Well, why uh what did you go to school for? Did you go to school for that?

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Yeah, I went for that. Yeah. The goal was I wanted to actually open a garage and learn how to work on antique cars and have like a small clientele. Okay, go from there, even though I had no experience in it. I just wanted to l find a team, learn how to do that, and just do it. Because I always had a fascination with old cars, old American cars. Okay. But then What was your first car? My first car in my like that I can recall. A pinto. No, I wish it was. Uh, it was this really shitty Buick station wagon that I still think about to this day. Red carpet throughout the whole car. Okay. Spiders in it half the time. We took long drives to Florida in it. Like, I have a lot of childhood memories in that car.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

And I actually saw one at a shop right parking lot. It was filthy. It looked like a hoarding done, but I still had good memories and smiled looking at that car.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Yeah. Did you leave a note saying, Are you interested in selling your vehicle? I will fix it. Um and was it just you and your sister? Yeah, it's me and my sister. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Wish we had a third.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Why is that? Free labor.

unknown 5:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Does that I hope that doesn't mean you don't pay yours that you pay. I hope that doesn't mean that you don't pay yourself. A lot of double negatives. You pay yourself, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:13

We do pay ourselves per se-ish. It's um but not formally now. We are an LSE, so we do pull from the company what we need.

unknown 5:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Which is not always the best practice, but when you're kind of tight on cash, it becomes a little bit easier practice. Okay. But um this past year as a first year, we properly paid ourselves. Congratulations. But we essentially it gets reinvested into the company. But not your income though. How do you think? Not our income because everything's so tied together, like our business, our household. And things tend to mix. We can show it and separate it, sure. But we end up we don't do take a lot of personal time. We don't invest in our own selves per se at the moment. We're still kind of early in our careers where we're just focused on careering.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Okay. Now, I I would imagine you wouldn't make that recommendation to people that may be listening and or wanting to open their own business where it's like, don't pay yourself. Absolutely not. I would tell them to make sure you do that.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Because it creates a separation.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Well, I'd also imagine that the stability for mechanical engineering is better than what it is for running running a coffee business or restaurant. And you're like it's a full restaurant.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

It's a full brunch restaurant.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

So I will say So we only came out once.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Um and there was, I forget what it was. I I ordered something. I was gonna I asked your recommendation, and I I I think the option was a few different I could have gotten it on a few different things. Okay. And you made a recommendation, and it was like one of the best things that I one of the best breakfast meals that I'd had, I I want to say almost ever. Yeah, I still remember you saying that to me that day. Yeah, well, because it's that memorable. But um I think that it says to it speaks to listening to people making like people who work at the restaurant making that recommendation. Because usually it's like, well, can you can I have this, but can you take this out and and do this and do that and do that? Um, which we can we can talk about because I have I have strong feelings about that too. Oh, as do I. I'm sure you do. Um so you opened in 2019. Right before the pandemic. Yeah. Good times. Um and you're still here, which is I mean it's a big deal. I think that's a big deal. So kudos.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Um, not a lot of people, I mean, a lot of people closed up, you know. It was a brutal time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

It was brutal because we to open the restaurant, we uh pulled an SBA loan, but which is a small business administration. Yeah. But we the mistake we made was not taking advantage of the opportunity they gave us for a slightly higher loan. Oh, they offered you more? They offered us more. We didn't take it. We took a little bit smaller amount. We were a little skeptical about the whole process. We didn't know how business would go. Obviously, it's our first time doing this. We all quit our jobs. Collateral for this.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Did they was there collateral? There's always collateral.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

The way the government's involved, it's always gonna be collateral, which is whatever your assets are. Most people, it's a house. So um that being said, we opened up and then there's a lot more expenses that came up in renovating. It was a purely cosmetic renovation. But oh, so what was it? What was it before? It was a falafel Middle Eastern restaurant.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

So the aesthetic was what we're going for was not, you know, that's now.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

So I look I'm I am not a uh Harry Potter person, but is that where the name comes from? That is where the name comes from.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Okay. So was my sister and I were what binge watching in 2018. There was like Harry Potter marathons on HBO. And then we were watching Order of the Phoenix, and then Smith had just said the order. And Smith is my sister. Yeah. And I was like, what are you talking about? She's like, no, for the name, I was like, oh, all right, and that's literally what happened. Yeah. And it just stuck. And like we're not like a heavy Harry Potter themed restaurant.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Well, like I've never seen any movies, and I've never read any of the books. And I'm never going to. It's a commitment.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Well, it is a commitment.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

I feel like I've gone this long without it. Screw it. I thought it was. And so I'm just not gonna do it. Yeah. And I don't want to give her any more money than she already has. That is true. That is true. Um, all right, so you take out a loan, construction, cosmetic mainly, right? Kitchen is in place.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

But we didn't budget how much the renovation would be properly. So then Can I ask how much you thought it was gonna be and then how much it ended up being? I can tell you how much we thought it was gonna be. I think the rough cost of it ended up being around between equipment and all the cosmetic stuff we had to do because there was a Middle Eastern place turn turned into a brunch restaurant. Yeah. Well, at that time it was actually a full service breakfast, lunch, dinner restaurant. Um, I think it ended up being, I could be wrong, but whatever. Say 75k.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

All right, between equipment, renovations, painting, flooring, all that fun stuff. Um no, no plumbing, no like electrical. Slight plumbing work, but nothing that required any permitting to be pulled, electrical, just basic wire running, nothing crazy that needed to again call for permits. It was purely a seven-week reno we were able to accomplish that in. And things went over, so obviously we started pulling from our imaginary cash. What was the loan for? Can I ask how much the loan was?

SPEAKER_00 11:00

325k. Okay. And that so that covers your 75k for the cosmetic.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

But we ended up going.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

You went over. Okay. The 325 mainly covered the business purchase. Oh, you there was key money.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Business purchase, per business purchase and their assets. Got it. Okay, so I do you do you call it key money? Because I call it key money.

SPEAKER_03 11:22

No.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

So I've never actually used that term. So key money, for anyone who's who's listening and who's not sure what that is, key money is you're basically buying. So somebody built out a space that was whether or not it was successful or not, they spent money to design it, to build it, to construct it. Um, and there's quit equipment, furniture, all that stuff that's already in there. And instead of them walking away from the lease, they basically want someone to come in and take over the balance of their lease. And so they're essentially selling everything that's already there plus however many years are left on that lease. And that's, you know, if someone's asking if they put in like two, three hundred thousand to do it, you know, they'll they'll try to get, you know, maybe try to recoup as much of that as they can. And that's what we refer to as key money, which is basically like money that you're using to just take the keys. So what was that? Was that like a couple hundred to to them for the for the rest of the lease? And did they assign it to you? No, so we actually we took over the business and all that, but we Jersey could be different.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Jersey might be different than the it's a new concept, and I'll look into it. But um we had new lease terms set with the landlord. Okay. So it was a brand new 10-year lease. Okay. I don't I'm trying to recall if his lease was up or he was just shutting down. I can't even recall that because it's just so long ago. But you had to pay him money. Say that again. You had to pay him money. Because he sold the business entirely. That was the thing. Okay. It wasn't just he's like leaving the space and going elsewhere. Like he was closing out his lease, whether he paid off early, I have no idea. I can't even recall. But he sold the entire business to us. We rebranded it into the order. Got it.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Um, all right. And so how long, how long did that renovation take? The stuff that you did? Seven weeks. Oh, quick. It was a quick one. Because we were there literally every single day.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Who did the work? Did you hire a team or were you pretty involved? Yeah, me, my sister, my dad. And then we had a contracting team, which was three guys. So we were there seven days a week, they were there six days a week. Okay. Did you know anything about any of that stuff?

SPEAKER_00 13:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Um, we renovated our old our house at the time. We did a lot of projects. Was it the best for renovating work? Absolutely not. Like, if we're talking like cut baseboards at 45 degrees, everything was like rough and crooked. Like you learn. So we were able to apply that and learn more when we did the work. But we essentially had them do the hard stuff, and then we would plan everything around us doing the easy stuff. So anything that we could do, we don't want them doing. Because you could focus on yeah, easy stuff, we got it. Give us the hard labor, and you guys do the more intricate stuff, so it comes out nice. But we don't want to waste your time doing things we can do.

unknown 14:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:06

And we don't want to just stand around because we need to turn this over quick. Did they do a good job? A phenomenal job. Yeah. That's great. They they were also there when we were doing basic work at our house. Like when we listed our house about five years ago, a lot of the work they did because we couldn't bounce back and forth. We ended up actually buying a house in West Orange to get closer to the business. Got it. But we couldn't sell our house immediately. Because it was tied. Because it was tied to the SBA loan. And it took about two years to transfer that lien on the house to our new house. Oh, wow. It was a chaotic process. They had to keep selling off our loan to different banks only to say, oh, we can't do this. Someone else has to buy it off. It was a very chaotic time. So we were just renting our house in the meantime. And luckily renting the one that you were purchased. Okay. Otherwise, we were just paying double mortgages and suffering. Got it. But um we were renting the house, and luckily we had three different tenants, and they're all like phenomenal.

unknown 14:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Two of which would come to the restaurant as customers driving 40 minutes, which was nice.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Yeah, that is nice. Well, yeah, that was a time. Yeah, well, exciting. And it but it's working out. 100%. So um let's let's talk about what you were doing right before you started this. I mean, were you in school? Or so I was a full-time student. Okay. And how old are you, if I can ask? I'm 29. You're 29.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

I always have to think about that.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Yeah. I was I was 29 when we started, like when we opened the first store. Um But you were like what, 23, 24?

SPEAKER_02 15:37

22. I turned like 23 a couple weeks into the shop being open.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Is are you younger or older? I'm younger. You're younger. How much how much older? Okay. Um, all right, so you're in school.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

I was working full-time at Whole Foods. Okay. Which is how I got familiar with your product. Oh. Because you guys were on our shelves, and I told my boss at the time, well, me and my boss would stay late sometimes and catch up on production and stuff like that. And we'd just take a bag off the shelves, don't sue us Whole Foods. Demon as Lost, and then we'd brew and just drink. Talk about coffee. He knew what my family and I were going into. So he knew my time was limited. So we talked coffee a lot, and he's actually one of my mentors in coffee.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

So you I mean, while you were working there, you knew when did you know that this was this was something you were gonna be doing?

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Yeah. So um I started there October 2016, and we decided we're gonna open a restaurant, I'd say 20. So then you were 17.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

I mean, I mean you were like I was young. I was young at that point. I was young. Yeah. And how so most most people are not nuts and when they're kids thinking I'm gonna open a restaurant. Most most people don't think that. I thought that. I mean, when I was a kid, yeah. I I wanted to open a restaurant, something. Bar. My first idea was a bar laundromat, which I think is a brilliant idea. I think it's a brilliant idea.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Yeah, my sister actually brought up that idea a couple of days back. A laundromat and a coffee bar. Because like I remember going to a laundromat when I was a kid, and it's so miserable. You just have that vending machine with like Kit Kat and stuff, which is great. But like, there's nothing to do.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

No.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

And the Wi-Fi always sucked.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Yeah. Well, when I was when I was thinking about it, there was no such thing as Wi-Fi. So I'm quite a bit uh I'm quite a bit older uh than you are. But yeah, that was the first thing that I wanted to do was open a bar laundromat. And then I remember I was like 15, I was like 16, I would I would like be sketching out and nightclubs. So I I was obsessed. I I loved the idea of restaurants. And then um, and then I you know I succumbed to like the pressure of my neighborhood growing up. I grew up in a pretty like quote unquote modern orthodox Jewish neighborhood. Okay, you know, so everyone I went to high school with, they're all becoming like they're going into real estate, they're becoming attorneys and or doctors. Like that was, you know, and so the bar was pretty high as far as like, you know. And I remember I would even, I I think I was having a conversation with somebody a couple weeks ago. And when I bartended, um, anytime I would go to some family function or from high school, when I was seeing kids from high school, people would always be like, Oh, what are you up to? I'm like, oh, bartending. Like, what else? What else are you doing? Everyone takes away from the service industry.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

That I don't like. That I don't like.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

No, not at all. But uh we're we're contributing, I think. And I think it's beautiful when you're able to bring somebody in and just show them that there's this pathway for them to actually be successful and thrive within within the restaurant industry. Um okay, so you are you're like 19, you know you want to open a restaurant, and you started working at Whole Foods while this was like No, this was before that even became a thought.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

This is 2016. Okay. I just saw at before Whole Foods, I was uh working two jobs while going to college. I was doing telemarketing, I was like renewing phones, um new newspaper subscriptions, and at Carvel. So I did both of those jobs. So I was working six, seven days a week and then going to school. And then a Whole Foods opportunity came up where the pay was the same as working both those jobs. Okay. And then I was like, oh, I can learn about coffee and wine and cheese. I like that, it's called the special speed department. I was like, oh, that department literally is me. I'd love to learn about that stuff. So I go into this interview, and it was really funny. I go to them, it's about a new store they're opening in Cloister, New Jersey, and they said, Why do you want to work for us? I said, I always wanted to learn about I love drinking wine and cheese and beer and coffee. It's all fun. Even though I was underage at the time, but whatever. And they said, Well, this store doesn't have one any liquor. I'm like, Oh, they're like, Do you still want the job? I'm like, Yeah, why not? So then I interviewed, I ended up getting the job, and then I was at the coffee bar for a couple months, and then the rest of my time was just in the cheese department. But then this idea came to life about us opening a restaurant, and though my skills are needed more in that department because that's where production heavily was, and that was when the coffee bar of Whole Foods started to decline. If you notice, a lot of them shut down. Um, that's where I started to ask my boss if I can cover breaks and go practice some things and stuff like that. And we talk coffee and he would let me could we developed a good relationship. So that's where I'd try and learn on their dime how to make drinks and make them look nice. Because obviously lots of yards really big, quality, textures, all that kind of stuff, pace of work. I wanted to learn it there and be ready, which I absolutely was not ready at all when we opened our restaurant. It was the most stressful time of my life. And were you charged with you're the one that's on the coffee?

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Yeah, like that's you. So my sister and my dad got the kitchen. I handled the bar. What was your dad's experience with I mean, uh, just aside, what was he doing before? So he's a it's very much a I I love how it's a family business.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Like it's fun. Honestly, I wouldn't have it has its challenges, which we can get into later, but I would not have it any other way just because there's an element of trust. Always, it's your family. You know, we all have the same goal. What is that goal? Literally for well, my parents didn't have the progressed financial upbringings in their childhood. They're immigrated here from India. Goa. Goa? Goa. I I did a little bit of research. I like it. And their goal is always for us not to have those struggles. Like even in my childhood, I recall, even when I got my license, I recall scavenging the house for like five bucks cash for gas. Yeah. Or some grocery money. And that kind of stuff we just don't want ever to happen again. Being that tight or struggling or not being able to do that. Your parents were like we had to do that. That was our parents. And then it also continued into our childhood. We didn't have the most money growing up. And that continued, continued. So we want to just be able to enjoy life. And honestly, working for ourselves is like the best thing ever. Because I love being held responsible for my own decisions and making choices and all that stuff. It's hard as hell. Yeah. But it's rewarding. And it can also be miserable at times. But it's nothing I would ever trade. And it's fun to do it with my own family. Because you kind of feel it feels like you're growing an empire. Slowly. Slowly. Okay. So and so what was your dad doing before? Right, back to that question. Oh, he worked at the United Nations as a procurement officer for 27 years or 26 years. And was he gonna retire? Is that yeah, he retired. He retired in 2017.

unknown 23:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

So a lot of the back end of coordinating with the SBA and not the actual design, the design of the whole restaurant was actually my sister. Okay. Um, because she was doing the same thing you were doing. We actually recently found the sketchbook she had of all this things that are actually kind of coming to life, which is actually really funny. But um, a lot of the financial backwork and planning, uh meeting with attorneys and stuff was actually him because he was the most free. He was completely retired, besides just watching our golden retriever puppy that we got at the time. He was free to do a lot of that. Yeah. So a lot of that was coordinated on his end while I was still in school with some other school. We were all working. And then um my sister graduated college and was able to focus a little bit between work and that. I was still at college. What was she doing work-wise? She actually worked at the United Nations for nine months. She studied pre-law and criminal justice. Yeah, literally. But she hated it. Both of them hated it so much. Okay, they hated working in that kind of an office where a lot of just paper pushing and talking about doing this and not doing nothing ever got done in their eyes. No changes ever made. Things are progressing slowly. They truly did not enjoy it. So Smeter quit after like eight or nine months. But she quit at the time we signed the restaurant, we were going into it.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Okay. So she knew that she was going to be falling back on something. Yeah. And and and when you signed the lease, I mean it when we signed our lease, we our first one, it took about eight months before we opened. It was a really long time. Our rent was really low. That's good. Which was helpful. We were very, very lucky.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Um but and this is your first shop you're talking.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

This is the first shop. This opened, it opened in October of 2009, but we signed our lease, I think it was February of 2009. Uh, but it's one of those things where you don't know what you don't know. And then you know, we we talk about that all the time. But when even when you do know, even when you do know stuff, still just things fall off the rail. Yeah, something comes up and you learn something new. So we had our the building that we were opening, it was a it was a landmark building. So New York City. Ballsy. Well, we I mean we didn't know. It was the only option we had. No one else was willing to give us a shot. So we we open up and in uh this landmark building, and we couldn't get our construction permits approved. We couldn't get our drawings approved, and nobody knew why. And the architect we were using, God bless him, he was using somebody in, I think it was in Detroit uh in Michigan. It was a there was a guy who lived in Michigan, he was licensed in New York, and so this other guy was using his license in New York, and that was how he was designing it. And but nobody knew the law, like nobody knew code in New York. So they they were just not familiar. We didn't know why it wasn't getting approved. And ultimately, the landmark department was holding it up because of something that didn't say something that it was supposed to say on the drawing, and so it held it up for months. And I ended up going to the landmark's office and I sat there. It was like Friday morning in the middle of the summer. I said, Hi, I'm looking to speak to this person. They're like, Well, they're not here. I was like, Okay, I'll wait. And I sat there the entire day. It was one of those things where it's like I'm just, you know, waiting, looking. Every time the door opens, I'm just waiting for someone to come through and say, Is that the person? And then eventually the guy, it was four o'clock on a Friday afternoon in the middle of the summer. The guy wants out of the office. He said, Who are you waiting for? I said, so and so. And he said, just come here. And he goes, here's the problem. One line on the drawings. He's like, if you fix this, we'll approve it next week. Like, Jesus, man. But this is how it goes. This is like frustrating. Yeah, of course. But I learned two lessons. One, if you need to do something, if you need something to get done, you gotta do it yourself. That's number one. And number two, don't open in a landmark building. That was the that was the bigger lesson. Um, but yeah, so it took us, I mean, it took nine months for us to get open, but that's very different than you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

But your land, the place still you were looking that you have now, you still have that store open? No. Oh, okay. Yeah, closed. But um, what was in the space before it?

SPEAKER_00 27:33

So it was the lobby of a hotel. So we it was like cool, we had work to do. You had work. Yeah, we had like it was probably like four months worth of work. Um, yeah, it was it was fun. How's permitting work in New York?

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Is it like a like you're you literally rezoned that, which is a challenge? In Jersey, it is a huge challenge.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

So here's we were very fortunate because at one point in time, that space had been some sort of kitchen. And so it was listed as as retail.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

And if something is listed as as a certain thing, retail or food, I don't know exactly what the code is, but um, you can very easily just get to work. And there you don't have to change any any zone or any usage. Okay. Uh sometimes you do, but uh typically we're going into a space that's already pre-existing as that usage. Um but also if if we're going into a new construction building, which happens sometimes, it's not classified as anything, but then you put that on the landlord. And we would say to the landlord, like, hey, we'll take the space, but it's on you to give us a certificate of occupancy, which is uh, you know, people call it the C of O. So you need to have that, uh, but it needs to be zoned properly and and all of that stuff. And um yeah, it especially is challenging with roasting because you know, when it has to be manufacturing zoning. It can't even be commercial, it needs to be manufacturing. So um, and then if it's manufacturing and residential, it's it's a whole thing and it's complicated. But you you don't realize that until you start looking into it. And um so obviously, obviously you know that that zone is this is what your usage is gonna be because that's what it was, yeah? Mm-hmm. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

So it was easy. I just had to only thing we had to major change is build a bar because the kitchen was there, the equipment was there and it was usable. Some of the stuff we had to change slowly. But the coffee bar? Yeah, neither of the colours. Okay, that's what you got.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Because that's like right when you walk in, that's like right on the right hand side. Exactly. And is that what time is that open in the morning? Now it's seven. Okay. And then eight on weekends. Can people sit when 100%? Okay, at any time. So seven. Okay. And then my kitchen will open at eight o'clock. Okay, got it. So it's seven o'clock, people are just coming in and out and getting coffee.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

For the most part, because I have a train station on a block away. Okay. So a lot of people. What kind of numbers are you doing? Good. Are they good? Coffee numbers are good, but it's actually I attribute our sales because of the food. So, like, there was a time where my dad and my sister went to India for two weeks. They handle the kitchen, and I can't do it without them for that long. Did it close? So I shut down the kitchen bar only. Now Can I ask you a question?

unknown 30:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

What when you were doing that, how long ago was that? 2023. Okay. So how much notice like did you let people know for a month in advance, like, hey, at this point in time, the kitchen is going to be closed for two weeks because they need a break. Yeah. But were you were you transparent about that?

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Yeah, put a sign on the door. I don't know if it'd be a challenge because 2023, we're now getting nicely past or into COVID, whatever you want to call it, past COVID or into COVID, where things are lighting up. All right, you can see people, all right. Um restrictions are starting to reduce. So 2023, our numbers start to get higher. But then now June comes, they need to go to India for flight business and also my cousin's wedding. So congratulations. Thank you, thank you. Um so I put a sign on the door. Yeah. That we're closing the kitchen for two weeks, bars gonna run, normal hours, blah, blah, blah. And you know, I have the one thing that's differs. I mean, I don't know what it's like be having a shop in New York because the volume is just wild, what you guys see. And it's all randoms, too. In suburbs, a lot of my clientele, especially during the week, is my regulars. Like at any point during the entire day, I know at least eight people out of my 30-seater restaurant or five outside, extends around 48. Like, I know a fraction of them. And it could be I could know the entire room. Yeah. It it really is so close-knit and small. It's very rare I have someone new. So um Okay. But you're you're also there all the time. I'm also there all the time. Yeah. How many days a week are you there? Every single day. Every day. Every single day. Hoping to slowly get away from that. But um Okay, well talk to me about what you're talking to me about, and then we're gonna talk more. We're gonna talk more about that. Um, yeah, but still, once I once the day actually came, oh, the amount of shit that I got. Kitchens closed, people are coming, they're surprised, I didn't know. I had it on my website, I had it on Instagram, had signs, but still, you're not gonna win. Yeah. But you gotta do what you gotta do. But uh talking about why I brought up that story in the first place, my coffee numbers say we're here because everyone's coming for food and coffee. Yeah, some people come for coffee, but bulk are coming for the food, and coffee is complementing it. Got it. So if my numbers are here for my coffee sales, the moment the restaurant, the food aspect closed, they came down. I was like, this is so interesting to see.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

That people are getting coffee. Yes, it's good. I know my stuff's good, but it's more of a compliment to the food and the whole experience. Let me sit down, let me have a bite, let me have a latte or chai or whatever the hell it is. Yeah. But for them to all come just for that, no, they're coming for the purpose of food, whether it's breakfast or lunch, and also having a drink.

unknown 33:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

So that was a really interesting thing to learn back then. But at full capacity, my bar will provide up to 25 or 30% of the revenue as a whole. Okay. That's that's pretty solid. It's nice. I go through a nice chunk of coffee too, like espresso-wise, I go through around 60 pounds a week, 55 pounds a week. Okay. Which I think that's quite decent.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

I hope. I think so. Yeah. I think like one of our like a good store is like 100, 150, 200 pounds a week, something like that. Which is like crazy. I can't even imagine going through that much. Well, um, how much food? I mean, you go through a ton of food. Oh, Jesus Christ. We grocery shop like three times a week. So people don't have the storage for it.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

So talk to me. When you say you grocery shop, what do you mean? So I have a mixture of things getting delivered from Cisco. Okay. And then things I go to Costco or Restaurant Depot for. Okay. So the restaurant depot stuff and Costco, I'm buying in person because restaurant depot actually delivers, but things are marked up a little higher. And then Costco doesn't deliver at all to our area. Okay. And because it's like less than 15 minutes away from me, it doesn't justify us having delivery, that slight cost increase. So we go and pick it up.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Like not and not Cisco. Like not just why don't you why don't you have everything delivered? I feel like it's you're giving yourself more work.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Oh, it's 100% more work, but it does free up a lot more cash because uh there was a time where we did everything delivery through Cisco. Uh, this is just my restaurant aspect of stuff the for the bar I get all from Odeko, and that's all delivered. Okay, got it. But uh just for the food aspect, Cisco's pricing's a little bit high. There's a lot of competitors, Cisco Baldur, uh Chef's Warehouse, US foods.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Well, yeah, but I I wanna I'm gonna push you on something. Go for it. Your time's valuable. 100%. Yeah. How much time are you going and spending in Costco?

SPEAKER_02 34:59

So Costco, I'm gonna call it call the whole shopping experience. The whole shopping, I do it all in one shot, Costco and restaurant depot. Because they're literally 15 minutes from a restaurant, but they're five minutes away from each other. Okay. Uh it takes up around two hours, hour and a half, two hours. Okay. Each visit. So if I'm doing it three times a week, it's around six hours. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

And how much are you saving?

SPEAKER_02 35:18

How much am I saving?

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Those three those six hours, right? How much money for what you're purchasing at at wherever you know you're making those purchases, as opposed to getting them from Cisco or getting them from Valdo or whoever.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

I would easily call it anywhere from four to six hundred a week. Okay. Maybe two weeks.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Okay. So here we go. How valuable is your time? Extremely. Okay. Six hours that you're spending doing that, right? You're saving four hundred dollars. I think, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your time is more valuable than $100 an hour.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

I'm not gonna argue that. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

I won't argue that. So I'm I'm just saying, I I like I think, and look, you do it, you do what you want to do. I'm not gonna I by but I'm just saying I think we have a tendency to undervalue, like, think about it. I if I wasn't here and I got that phone call that I got right two minutes before. Okay. And just for context, which I know you mentioned the context, but I got a call two minutes before we started recording that there was a shutoff valve to one so one of the pipes was not shutting off. And your store is flooding. In one of the stores, and the store is flooding. That was the call. The call was Jeremy, the store is actively flooding. Okay. Now, if I wasn't here, I would have dropped whatever it was that I was doing, and I would have run down there and I would have dealt with it.

SPEAKER_03 36:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

Um, is it is that the most financial, is that the most fiscally responsible decision to make? Probably not. Um, but that's you do what you got to do. And I think that's how business owners with that mentality, it's like that's they just do what they need to do. Um, and for me, if I get a call and it's not urgent, it's like the toilet's broken, like, oh I'll go fix it. I go in and I fix it, as opposed to sending somebody who I've hired to fix it, who is paid less per hour than what I believe my time is is worth. And so it's it's this balance. But I think you learn as you grow as a business owner what that value is. Yeah. Um, so anyway, I'm I'm I'm just saying I think your time is is more valuable than what you're actually saving. But then I go back to what we talked about earlier, where it's if I'm sitting at home and have home, I'm watching some shit on um Love Island. Well, that I won't watch. I won't watch that.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

No, so I I completely agree. My goal long term, I absolutely don't want to shop because it is a waste of time.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:10

But in my current financial planning, that saving versus my time and my sanity, I'm gonna call it worth it just in the immediate future. However, long term, I absolutely would not want to shop. And then when I train a team to manage and run the restaurant and I'm not there every single day, I don't want shopping to me my worry. I'd rather train someone to submit orders, have it delivered, done. Yeah, call it because it's obviously so much easier. I told you at the time we were having everything delivered for quite some time, and it was so peaceful.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

It's so peaceful. But but right. But I think isn't your sanity and peace of mind worth maybe that little extra that you're spending? I'm I'm I'm not asking you to give me that answer because sometimes it it yeah. It's hard as a business owner.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

You start to sacrifice bits of yourself and your happiness or your sanity or your time for things that and then you get sometimes stuck, whether it's a complacency or just habits of how you do things or your order every day, and you don't take a moment to reassess, hey, there could be a better way of doing this.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Well, there's so what I've learned is there's always a better way to do something. I concur. Uh, but I think oftentimes we don't find out, and and then we find out the hard way. Um but you talk, I mean, you talk about sanity and wanting that peace, but you're there seven days a week.

SPEAKER_03 39:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

I mean, that's crazy. So this ties together with so our business every year just gets better and better and better. Yeah. Like we reached record highs. 2025 was amazing, ridiculous year for us. It was amazing. And then 2026 started, and our sales just dropped. Okay. And it has nothing to do with quality of product. Okay. All right, our drinks are great, food's great, service is great. We always get commended on our team. Because like we know the food and the drinks are great. Yeah. That's given. Because why we have a good trained team at my bar. My sister is always overseeing the kitchen with our team, like, is always gonna have good stuff coming out. Service is just like, wait, so really when you come into our shop, it's like a genuine family. Like my mom's in the front welcoming everybody. Half the time, people, if they're not coming for the food or the drink, they just come to gossip with my mom. All right, all right, they'll see me and my mom bicker, and there's like a genuineness to it, you know? How many days a week is are they both there? We're all there every single day. Everyone's there every day. We're all there every single day. Our days are a little short, they end at two o'clock, so we get home around three, and then weekends around 4 30.

unknown 40:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

But um there we go. What's up? No dinner. No dinner. That stopped. I think in 2023 when business started to go up, we're like, we don't need this whole till seven or eight o'clock thing. So we cut that out. Okay. But um, this winter just dropped, and I'm just cost of living is just ridiculous lately. Yeah, grocery prices are high, gas prices are high, and no one was going out. And I'm on my local downtown district board, and we talked to other local business owners, and they all had the same issue. Just no one's going out. So our sales declined. And then on top of that, I had two deaths in our family. My dad was going back and forth to India. Okay. Um, my mom had a knee replacement. Like things are getting a little chaotic. Okay. So then we're like, you know what? Let's just open seven days and dig ourselves out of the slight hole we fell into, unfortunately. And then we're also working on a massive project that I vaguely told you about separately. You didn't tell me, you told Paul.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

I'm not gonna tell the world yet. No, no, no, it's totally fine. But um, I can't wait.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

Oh, yeah, you're not copied in that email.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

No, I'm sorry. Paul mentioned it. He's like, uh, he didn't give me details, but he said something big is coming. It so I look forward to that.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

Oh, it's it's exciting, and it's slowly every our mind is constantly on it. Yeah. Because there's a lot of communicating with real estate agents, attorneys, our accountants, and the other people as well. But um it's slowly coming to fruition. Yeah. And hopefully I get the word soon in the next couple weeks. Okay. And I can go public with it. Okay. But um nothing's signed. Nothing's signed yet. Okay. But when that happens, the seven days a week decision to get us out of that hole we were in and also to essentially free up some capital to do what we need to do, it'll be worth it. But we intend on reducing this seven days a week within the next like two months, three months. Well, so how it was just a temporary thing, just to kind of dig us out of some financial strains we were under. Okay. But do I enjoy it? Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

But so you were open how many days a week?

SPEAKER_02 42:58

It was we're always six. Since open, we're we think we did seven like once and then we stopped. Monday? What's a yeah? Mondays, uh Mondays. We were closed. Yeah, that's like the standard closed. Literally, but then like everyone's because that we did we used to actually do Tuesdays. But then um, we're having some staffing issues for getting any of our team on a Monday. Okay. And we have a lot, my team has been there. I have I hired two new people the past like three months, but everyone else has been there for at least a year to five years. Like we retain our team quite well, okay, which is one thing I really it makes life a lot easier. But um, no one could work on a Monday, and I couldn't find people to work on a Monday either. So we're like, I mean, yeah, Monday. So I said, screw it, we're closing Monday. And also it helped because a lot of we have a small storage, like our walk in cooler is small. So like the weekends are getting busy, we're depleting all of our inventory. And even if we were to get inventory for Monday, we're the only place open and we have no inventory. So we're like prepping, we're marinating, we're doing all this while we're packed, and we're like, this is not feasible. Yeah. So we took the money hit, even though Mondays are great, closed on Mondays, and that was like our shopping replenish, doctor's appointments, all that kind of stuff. And that continued for until two months back, where we went seven days.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

Got it. Now will you remain open when in assuming everything works out with this new thing, will this place stay open or you can't answer that either?

SPEAKER_02 44:23

Can't answer that at the moment. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

No problem. That is no problem. Um when you're talking about January like this year, January, February, March just being just so grim. I think that was across the board. I don't I don't think that was just your experience. And I don't, I also don't necessarily think I'm sure people are pulling back on on spending, but I also believe that we probably had one of the worst winters that we have had in an incredibly long time. And it was, I mean, we had a close. There were a few days where we closed shop.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

And even after reopening, no one could walk. It was 30 inches of snow frozen over. Who the hell wants to walk?

SPEAKER_00 45:09

Exactly. So it was a the the winter itself, we had I think there was a period of probably a month where the temperature did not go above freezing. Freezing. I remember that. And so all of this snow froze and it was just I mean pile mountains. And I'm sure it was equally bad by you.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

Yeah, it was brutal.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

Yeah. So that was, I'm sure that was part of it. 100%. That was a big factor we also attributed it to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

Um but but you like it sometimes it takes a minute to really like take a step back and be like, oh, that was it. That was what it was. Plus, I mean February is 28 days. We're only open for 26 and a half. And so that's those numbers also always look low. Yeah. A huge impact. Huge impact. Um, where do you so how many people do you employ? Twelve, eleven?

SPEAKER_02 46:09

Okay. Where do you find them? Where do you find them? Most of them are you have some that are college students, some are former customers. Um, some just walk in and ask for a job and I interview and go from there.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

What is your interview? Like, what's your interview process? What's our interview process? Um I'm I'm so intrigued because I staffing, I'm as I'm sure you know, it's like it's probably the most challenging. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

Staffing and training for me is forever the hardest part. I'm trying to not make it the hardest part, but at the moment it is the hardest part of running my business.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

Yeah. Well, because you I think you want to do it extremely well.

unknown 46:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

And that's why it's just it's hard. And and plus, with when you have the food and the recipes, all that stuff like down to a science, it's you know, that's usually not what's giving you the headache. The the headache is somebody's, I'm not, I can't come in because something happened, and so now you're short staffed, and like what do you do?

SPEAKER_02 47:06

And all that's like a mixture of that, and also they're the face, like yeah, say my sister is cooking the food all the time in the kitchen. Yeah. Half the people don't know her or know she exists. Right. All right. I'm at the bar, or it could be in my office don't, or it could be a Costco restaurant depot. I may not exist to people. So who's selling our product? Who's talking on our product? It's our team. So unless they're trained properly and well to be self-sufficient, they're not going to represent our brand that we want to grow well. So that's where I invest a lot of my time in.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

And it's challenging. Yeah. What does that look like? Like what kind of an investment? I mean, do you build all the training manuals and all of that stuff?

SPEAKER_02 47:48

So that is the goal to get legit, like what I'm sure you guys are. Like having nice SOPs, having like a whole formal written training regimen. I'm not gonna say it's off the fly, but it's off the fly. Not gonna say it is, but it absolutely 100%. This brings it back down to small business, one location type thing where we're always there. That's not something I've put in time to formalize and make legit, which I really want to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Well, see, if you remove the six hours that you spent going to Costco, right, then you have that. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 48:31

No, it's I 100%.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

And I'm not trying to give you a hard time.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

No, I understand, and I not only I completely agree with what you're saying, I completely agree with it. Because it's a constant thought on my mind. This is sucking my time out. There is a nice savings, I see it, I'm utilizing it properly. But can I do something else with that? 100 freaking percent. Yeah. But right now, as we maneuver things and plan and succeed in that and dig ourselves out of that, I'm like, let me just keep this going a little bit longer, and then I'm done.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

I'm done shopping. Have you uh has throwing in the towel ever crossed your mind? Have you been just I I can't do this anymore? There's definitely hard days, without a doubt.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

Like restaurant industry is just it can be something because people are really unpredictable. People have their own boots, so people just kind of have the power to screw your day and just screw your logic and kind of get in your head sometimes. Like they say, don't you mean customers? Customers. Alright, well, let's talk about that. But no, I can't say I've ever said fuck this, I'm out. Like, done. I'm out. I've never felt that way. I'm kind of happy I haven't. I feel like if I'm not sure for your parents at all. No, it's entirely not. We all have our rough days, but never thought to quit this.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

And do you talk? Like, do you decompress like do you you know bounce things off one another constantly? Are you uh venting? Are you using your parents as like like when you get really frustrated? Yeah, so your sister, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

My parents are really they're Asian, so like we're all about bottling it.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

But me and my sister shoving it way down there until it becomes like non-existent.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

You say non-existent. Uh my sister and I are quite good about communicating with each other. Uh, she actually holds me really accountable to doing that, which I appreciate because sometimes I also want to push it all the way down neck like it doesn't exist. And then we'll even go to our dad about things too, and he'll offload some stuff on us. So yeah, we do decompress because we're with each other all the time. Yeah, right. And say like we had a long day and we're exhausted, we're not going out and meeting other people. We're like, fuck this, I'm gonna shower and lie down on my couch. And who's around me?

unknown 50:55

Them.

SPEAKER_02 50:55

Yeah. So if there's anything I want to say or often, you live almost.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

We all live together.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

All together in the same house.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

Is that a cultural thing?

SPEAKER_02 51:02

It is a cultural thing. Yeah. So you can't leave until you get married. Is that no no no? Is that drill? I wouldn't all right. I'm gonna add cultural and also our own values. Okay. So, like growing up, I've never, and this is not to insult anyone that does it. I just can't see my parents in like a nursing home or somewhere that's out of my care.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:20

Because they raised us, they took care of us throughout our whole life and childhood. I can't leave them type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

And plus they chose that.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

They chose that, 100%. Yeah. But I just feel whether it's a responsibility, whether it's a duty, or just I want to because they've done so much for me my entire life, I want to take care of them.

SPEAKER_00 51:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 51:41

And that's where part of my goal or my drive and what I do to an extent is monetary because to be able to take care of them, to give them the life of travel that they may not or travel and relaxation. My dad traveled his whole life. We all love traveling, but I traveled for work. It was never for enjoyment. Uh, we took some family trips, but like we love traveling, we love to relax and enjoy. That's all monetary-based. And um, coming back to a goal, me and my sister have agreed that we both want is we just want a really massive house for she gets married, she's engaged right now.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 52:16

And if they have kids, they have kids. Uh, whenever I find a partner and we have kids, I want we want us all to be together in just just a massive place where we all have our own space. Okay. Like we're not all cramped together in this tiny little split little house. Yeah. We want like just everyone to be together, but also have their own space, but still be within the same place. That's like kind of our goal, which is it's far-fetched to most people that I talk to about it. But it's just something we've kind of want for our future.

SPEAKER_00 52:44

Well, I I so I mean, I um that's uh it's different. I applaud you, it's definitely different. Um, but I think it's also uh what's probably challenging is finding people, like finding partners that are on board with that too. Oh yeah. Right? Is that so what is Sam dealing with?

SPEAKER_02 53:05

So her fiance is well for he's actually living in our house.

SPEAKER_00 53:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 53:08

So he's been living in her house for a little over a year now.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

Okay. And that's always an adjustment. Uh I was I was gonna ask a personal question, but I'm not gonna ask it.

SPEAKER_02 53:16

You can always ask and edit it out. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:19

Well, like, are your are your parents okay?

SPEAKER_02 53:22

Like, uh do they live in the same room? So yeah, they're in the same room. Okay. Was it awkward for it's really funny because my room's here. It's not a grand house, right? Okay. It's just a normal Jersey split level house. If Sam wants me to take that out, I So like our bedrooms are my bedrooms here, Samantha's bedroom is here, my parents' master bedroom is here. Like we're all there. And we have our two dogs that they our whole life no one closes doors. So they love to just go into your room, then bounce to that room, down to the hot room. They love it, yeah. They'll see if another one.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

Bernice Mountain dog. Oh. Loves loves in my life. Those are so the you're gonna show me photos. 100%. Um Proud dog. Oh my god, wow. Look at that tongue. Oh my god. That's like the longest tongue I think I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_02 54:08

Um but um, yeah, so if there's a door closed, it's just crying and panicking. Like, why can't I get to you? How's it? So you said that. Uh Golden's eight, Bernice's three. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

A Bernice. So, I mean, I now we've gotten started talking about dogs, and so I don't mind that conversation. Um I think one of the first dogs that I ever really encountered was I think I was in Florida. I for some reason I vaguely remember being on some sort of tennis court, and there was a Bernice just running around. I mean, it was somebody's dog and just running, and I was like, what is that? That's the cutest thing I'd ever seen. Because I think I had seen a St. Bernard, and it looked similar enough to a St. Bernard, and so I just kind of made this connection. Um, but yeah, the I mean we grew up, I grew up with a chocolate lab and uh Cavalier King Charles. Cute. Those are the those are the first two that I had. And then I got my own, I got like a lab, she was like a lab mix eaten. Looked like a black lab sweetness, sweet. The bond you formed with them? Uh, yeah. Um, and I have, well, I I lost I lost one of my pits like that was probably two months ago.

SPEAKER_02 55:21

Uh damn sorry.

SPEAKER_00 55:22

Yeah. Um yeah, it was that was like it was hard. That was like really, really rough. Uh I can't even imagine. I didn't think we were gonna talk about this.

SPEAKER_02 55:32

Um but these are my first two dogs in my life. My whole life I wanted dogs. Yeah. And I was always fascinated with golden retrievers because of like Airbud and Full House. But you didn't grow up, so you didn't grow up with a dog. First dog was Jasper. We got in 2018. Okay. So I was in sophomore in college or something. It is senior college.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

They're everything. They're the best. We don't, we don't deserve, we do not deserve dogs.

SPEAKER_02 55:59

Um but I feel like every business owner needs a dog. Why? It just takes every problem and stress away. The moment I get home, I look at them and they're excited to see me. Yeah. And then we just have a grand old time together.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

Yeah. I mean, they you know, it's uh they teach you a lot. Dogs, dogs definitely. Mine, mine have taught me quite a bit. Um, about myself and about how um I can show up for other people. And and it's also it's I I think there's people who don't have dogs, uh, it's I think it's tough sometimes for them to really like if I would, you know, most people that I would tell that I I lost uh one of the dogs, they they got it, they understood, you know. But there's some people that you tell and they're just like, oh, you know, and then they move on.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

It's like the same way.

SPEAKER_02 56:53

I before I got my dogs, the amount of a lot of a lot of friends that had dogs. Yeah, and they said their dog died. And this is like high school college. I'm like, I said, Oh, I'm so sorry. Right, but in my head, in the back of my mind, I'm like, it's a dog. Yeah. Because I didn't understand that until now. And I think about and anyone that loses their dog or their pet, um, it's just like a painful day I'm not looking forward to.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:15

Because these are the first thing dogs I've ever had. I've bonded like hell to them.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:19

And I know that day will come. And now I see all my friends how they go through it, and they it's they suffered. And I see your eyes are watering right now. Like it's tough, man. It's tough.

SPEAKER_00 57:29

Um my entire existence, I, you know, getting up in the morning, you gotta deal with the dogs. And not, I don't mean deal with them. You gotta you gotta take it. Whether you're sick, tired, whatever it is. It doesn't matter. You need to show up. It doesn't matter. And when I, you know, it's like even if I want to do something after work, which I typically never want to do anyway, because I'm I'm always so I'm always so tired. Yeah, exactly. Um, but you gotta you gotta go home. You gotta deal with the, you know, I would do your you gotta do your responsibilities. Um I would always refer to them as the girls. Like the the girls, I gotta go take care of the girls. Um and so, and you know, you're you're around them. I mean, I I bought my house. I bought a house upstate in upstate New York. I bought it because I wanted them to have a place where they could go and run around and have like, you know, a lot of space. And so I bought them a house. I bought my dogs a house.

SPEAKER_02 58:30

See, that's a great idea. But if you're to tell that to a non-dog owner, it'd be like, What's wrong with you? What the fuck are you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 58:37

Well, I also I moved I moved my apartment in Manhattan. Um, I was on the seventh floor, and I was constantly looking for space with with a backyard.

unknown 58:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

And then I found one. And you know, I moved because I wanted the girls to have a backyard.

SPEAKER_02 58:52

So that's not your primary residence.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

So the primary residence is in East Harlem. And then, you know, it's the the house I have upstate. I closed on it March 5th of 2020.

SPEAKER_02 59:07

Shut down March 6th.

SPEAKER_00 59:09

Yeah. My my closing was it was my buddy did my mortgage for me, and um I was the last in-person closing that that he had. Yeah, he wasn't there because it was it was upstate. But um must be beautiful out there, man. I well, I renovated the whole thing myself because I was gonna hire somebody, and then the the entire world completely shut down. And so number one, my business is not running and I don't have money to be able to afford to hire anybody.

SPEAKER_02 59:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:47

And they're not gonna show up anyways, right?

SPEAKER_02 59:49

Because they can't do anything.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

And so now I'm carrying rent, I'm carrying a mortgage, and so I was like, oh God, what am I like, what am I gonna do? So um I would drive up two or three days a week, I'd leave at 5 30, I would stop at it's like a Home Depot on the way upstate. I'd stop there, I'd pick up all the supplies. I had a list of what I was gonna do that day. I would go and I would do it and I'd come back. Excuse me. The house was uninhabitable. It was un I bought it. It was a dump. How much was it, if you don't mind me asking? I don't mind. Um I paid two, I think 265 after all was said and done. Because the listing price was like 275, but then there were, I don't know, it wasn't just bats. No, it wasn't bats, it was squirrels. There was like a family of squirrels that was living in in the attic. And so I had to hire a guy and he gave me a quote, and all like there were all of these things, they just left a bunch of shit behind in the in the rooms. I was like, come on. And so they ended up knocking like 10 grand off because I had to spend 10 grand to clear it and clean it and all of that. That's so frustrating.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:00

Um at least clean the place out.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

Yeah, no. But I spent I spent a year. I'm renewing and it took me a year to renovate it. And I did it, I had I had a little bit of help with like heavy lifting stuff. Like Paul came and helped me lift the cabinets that I was putting up against the wall. Um, Jason helped me with uh installing the floor and also lifting some um sheetrock up against the ceiling. But aside from that, like I did everything. I did everything. Now, was that first time doing this type of yellow work?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:29

Isn't it so fun to learn?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:31

So I what's so wild is first of all, when I go up there, I I did all of it. And I would like to do it. I love it, right? Um but I also for some odd reason I don't think I could do it again. Like, and and just bear with me, and I don't think it makes any sense what I'm about to say. But it almost feels like something came over me for a year that I wasn't it wasn't me. Like, so I'm I'm a I'm a Jewish kid. I I'm a Jewish kid from Long Island, yeah. Jews don't know how to do that stuff. They don't, they don't talked about it before doctors, lawyers, acquaintances. That's right. Uh Daniel and certainly not no carpentry. I mean, Jesus, well, yeah, I mean he was he was Jewish. But I I th I feel like something kind of just took over and enabled me to do all of this work. I mean and I don't know if I could do it again. I I could if I needed to.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:39

Yeah. But the whole world shut down, dude. No, I know. I had no choice. You had to fucking figure something out to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

Yeah, I had no choice. How many stores did you have at that point in time? Do you remember? So, yeah, we had so right now we have 15. Two of them are licensed, but uh so we own 13 of them. We had we had about 14 before, like right as COVID was happening, and we had three leases signed. So we were we were getting ready to like step on the gas and just start opening, opening, opening. And that did not happen. Yeah, it was close, close, close, close, close. Um but uh you know, we were very, very fortunate. Very fortunate. In what way? Um we we managed to to make it through. I mean, we took out so uh the SBA was offering uh what's called an EIDL. Yep, we have that as well. So and that's just it was a it's always did you know that it was always available? Yeah. So EID. Even prior. Yeah. Even prior, yeah. It's it's something, something like that. Economic injury, disaster loan or something like that. Right. So it always exists, but we you know, I mean, there was no reason for us to tap into it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:53

I think before you had to justify what the hell is happening for them to give it to you because extremely low interest loans that they're giving out for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:00

Oh, that was like it's like three percent. I know it's really low. It's a really and it's a 30-year amortized loan. It's wild. So it's a dream. Um Yeah, we took we took two of those. Um and and yeah, and it took us 21 and 22, and then I think 23, we were hoping that it would really start to come back. It didn't. For us, it did business did not come back until it was 2024. That was when business really, really started to get back to where it was in 2019. Um, but we had a we had a shut, I think we had a shutter, maybe three or four locations, something like that. Um, and you know, it's also a good opportunity for you to take a hard look at what's working, what's not working. Um, and it was I mean, it was an opportunity for us to kind of trim the fat. Yeah, you know, if something is just not doing what we need it to be doing, and and for something to really, for a store to really perform, to be a good performer, uh, we need it to be like the four-wall profit. We probably need it to be somewhere between like 17 and 23. Like that's 20%. It's like the sweet spot. Yeah, right. And so um, yeah, we have some stores that do above that, we have some stores that do around that, and we have some stores that do less. So um we definitely had that at that time, and so was uh we just had the ability to, and we also had a store. Um, it was in Herald Square. I don't know if you had been, it was on Sixth Avenue and 36th or 37th. And I was it opened January of 2020. I was so excited. I thought it was gonna be an absolute home run.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:46

Million dollar store type thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

Yeah, oh, yeah, oh, easily. Absolutely. Um closed two months after it opened, and we tried to reopen it, but it just wouldn't, it wouldn't take, you know, and it was that area that. Area was so commercial and it just didn't come back for years. And and you we had to ride it out. We would have had to ride it out and just lose, keep losing money out it just doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:12

And you have tenants at all your locations, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:14

We don't own anything. Yeah, we don't own any of them. Um you know, for New York real estate is obviously incredibly expensive to purchase, to rent to but for the amount of money that we would spend if we if it was a condo and we were able to buy a space, the amount of money that we would spend on that space would probably be the amount of money that it would take for us to build out three three or four locations. Not worth it. It's just not worth it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:45

So such a different beast running shop in New York.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:48

Well, you don't own your do you want you you signed a lease?

unknown 1:06:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:51

No, our building, we own it now, though. We bought it in 2024. Well, that's that's huge. It is. That's a big deal. It was a tough decision. Was it the smartest money-wise? No. Well, no, because for cash flow. But our cash was already tight at that time. We're still coming out of COVID. As far as an investment, what else is in the building? I have two um commercial, I'm uh two office tenants upstairs. One's an attorney, does a lot of government contracts, the other one is an overseas Dutch consultant of some sorts.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:21

But um, yeah, it was the best because before when we were still a tenant, our rent was ridiculous. We got blessed with our location and our landlord. He could have easily charged us double that rent. Our rent was three thousand like five hundred. Wow. Like in a neighborhood like that, for a restaurant, it should be upwards of five and a half thousand going aside as eight. Like when we were first looking for a restaurant, um, Jersey City, Montclair, these city-like parts of Jersey, all the rents we're seeing were from eight to twenty thousand for that same kind of square footage around twelve fifty. Yeah. And then we find this guy at that rent. And now if someone is to buy that building, who's to say they evict us? Who's to say they jerk up the rent to a number where it actually should be, but we're just not budgeting for?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:11

So it was kind of a smart play in that sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:15

But it all it had its pros and it had its pros and cons.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:20

But no regrets on that decision. It is the mortgage is obviously higher than the rent.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:26

Yeah. Like a lot more?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:29

Not a lot more. Okay. Feasible amount more. Okay. Our profit margin on the restaurant's good. It ranges anywhere from 20 to 25%. Can be as high as 30%, which is nice. So our payroll is high. We do pay our team quite high. Okay. And you're not included in that?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:44

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:45

Not in that. No we are, but before for that that time, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:49

Yeah. Um yeah, we uh the whole uh the way that you pay yourself, you it's it's very, very interesting with uh being a small business owner and and having an LLC specifically. Yeah um because you don't, I mean there's no K uh there's no W2s. You don't have a W2, you're not 1099, you get a K1. Yeah. And then your your income is tied directly to the business's profitability.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:17

Which tends to make it more messy, and then you just tend not to pay yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:23

It's being the easier route. But but that's at times. But if you're if you're showing a profit, you taxes have to be paid on that.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:31

Taxes have to be paid on that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:32

Taxes have to be paid on that. And so that's where it gets you know funky because it that goes according to the the percentage of who owns what. And and I would imagine is it all equally or no? No, I have my sisters at 51%. I'm 49. Okay. And then your parents that zip nothing? Nothing. They just work. They're just there. And they don't take money, and you give them you're gonna support the parents aren't paid. Me and my sister aren't paid. Oh weren't parents are all right. So they're W-2. They're W-2'd. They w-2. Okay, got it. Okay, fair enough. And then after they're retired, you'll take care of them. Let them live in your big house.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:08

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:09

With uh with all the kids running around.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:11

Hopefully it happens soon if everything goes well. That's the goal. I need them to start enjoying. My dad just turned 70. My mom is 64, 65. Okay. Their time is ending. Here, like not talking work-wise. I know. I got that. I need them to just relax and enjoy. And then same for me and my sister. I need us to not say not to work. We need to work. Like, look how you're running your shops. You're working.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:34

Yeah. But I need to- You are different. It's different it's a different kind of work. You're, I think you're gonna be doing less of this stuff that you don't really love. Which even though you maybe you love all of it, because I I love all of the different things, but it's shifted, it's changed, right? And what I what I get fulfillment from is different than what I necessarily like love. Yeah. Or loved in the past. And so, you know, figuring out ways in which to do new things and grow and partnership and you know, and collaborate and do all these other things, that's that's my that's what I love.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:11

And it's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:12

And I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:13

Because you have good ideas, your head's always going. Might as well do something. Like, look at this. First thing I asked you is when did this start and why?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:20

Well, I wanted, I I bought this probably two years ago, three years ago. Just sat on it. Yeah, well, because well, because I and I'm sh maybe you can relate. It's like you have an idea, and then it's like, all right, I need uh it's gotta be perfect, and I need all of the equipment, and so I start buying all of this stuff. And then I was like, I don't have when am I gonna do this? I don't have time to do this. And so then I sit on it and I don't do anything. Yeah, and then we've been wanting to do some sort of project like this for a really long time, um, but specifically connecting with business owners and and people in the coffee space, and um because they're they're very unique. They're very unique because this is so hard. And it takes a lot to do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:07

It does. It a hundred percent does. And one of the favorite things I like, I like going to Coffee Fest every year. Okay, because you just meet these people and you talk with them, yeah. And then listening to your other three podcasts and learning about people that like, for example, when I was opening a shop and I picked you guys for my coffee vendor, I was weighing both of them. Not sorry, both I was weighing um Grumpy, Scumtown, La Cologne. And so hearing her perspective was very interesting. Just because, like, wow, listening to someone that I wanted to potentially work with at that time and hearing their stories, their opinions, yeah, it's fascinating because I don't have those conversations. Like, you know, you're saying you're really close with Jonathan and uh I think her name was Christina. Caroline. Caroline Caroline, yeah. Um it's fascinating because where I'm at, in about a couple months, we're gonna have like 12 or 13 coffee shops all in town. And for New Jersey, that's fucking ridiculous. Like we know it's not New York where there's a something at every corner. Yeah. So, and if you're to ask me a relationship with all of them, it's very it's we're not tight. Like, yeah, I've never once asked somebody for a case of Oatley because I'm out. Right. And no one's ever done that to me either. Yeah, but you could ask me, you know. Oh, I've done it. Yeah, no, I know. You asked me for a machine. Oh my yeah. We dropped the rent. Oh my lord. But but it's such a different dynamic down there. And then here, you guys, the biggest names in coffee, learning that you guys are all so tight, yeah, it's freaking amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:40

Well, I mean, you're you said you sit on a board, um, like the within your community. So um, yeah, I I think it's about putting in effort, right? And and reaching out to folks. This for me, this is I'm I'm a big introvert. And I don't, yeah, I don't know if we've discussed this. I've discussed this in the past. I think on some of the past episodes, I I'm a big introvert. So like I'm shocked to hear that. Yeah. I well I'm because this it just takes it takes everything out of me. Yep. Um, but this this sort of project really required me, requires me to step a bit outside my comfort zone and reach out to folks and be like, hey, you know, let's let's you know, let's chat. And and it it in a good way. You know, I've I have a couple of really um someone else who's like big in in the New York scene who I've never really chatted with, and I'm really excited to to talk to him. And um it's just like it's a it's it's a good way for me to grow as a business owner, but also as like someone who's trying to, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:46

I'm so baffled at that. Because my whole Birch life with you guys, yeah. It first started off with Preston back in the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:55

Then once uh Preston left, all my communications with Paul and Joe.

unknown 1:14:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:00

And then I still on there I forget I had that issue that I'm sure you can recall two years back or a year and a half ago. And I reached out to Paul for advice. I think it was longer. I think it was probably like three years ago. But yeah. I reached out to the city. Were you and your dad and and your sister? We all came. And then he's like, This is a Jeremy thing. He will talk you through it. And my sister and my dad are like, What's he like? I'm like, I've never met this man in my life. I just know Paul. Yeah. And then we come here, and not only are you so damn personable, you speak well. Like your diction, your tone, like what you talk about is like it's good advice. And it's genuine. And now, like to this day, I'd say with the amount of business owners and networking I do, there's only a handful of people I can actually say I look up to or value their opinion heavily or would go to for advice because I'm not I don't go asking for help that often, which is a bad thing, but there's a few people I'll do it to. It's hard. And that conversation added you to that list. And that was about three years ago. I don't never forget some of the things you say, me, my sister, and my dad still think about and use to practice and talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:12

Well, I'm I'm glad that that was helpful. So I'm just shocked you're an introvert. Yeah, that's all to say. You're shocked I'm an introvert. Well, I I I can turn it on when I'm when I'm in work mode, and it's I I'm so passionate about it. I love this work that I wish everybody would do it. You know? I think we would be, we'd live in a much nicer, kinder society if everybody was a small was a small business owner.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:39

No, because every your perspective changes, you see things differently. And even going off Coffee Fest, I think we'll still think about everyone makes it a monetary thing. You want to grow your business, you want to talk to people, sell your product, get it known, whatever. And then you guys are there two years ago, I think, selling knowledge. And I'm like, Yeah, we stopped. We stopped. Yeah, I know you stopped, but just who the hell has the balls to do that? And then my sister went to one of your seminars, and the first thing you said, if you're in coffee for the money, get out. Get out, yeah. And it just showed how passionate you guys are.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:17

And it's you need people like that in this industry. Because yes, money is great. All right, we all do things for money, we need to sustain our lives, that's true. But then people lose a sense of the passion and why they're doing it, or maintaining their product or their quality, or training, and investing in themselves and their team. And that will continuously solely be one of the reasons why I admire you and Paul. Like you guys have built something that's I don't see personally. I appreciate it. And it it fascinates me.

unknown 1:17:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:50

Good shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:51

Well, thanks, Ben. I we've uh we've gone long. Um this will be the longest episode for sure. And I I'm I'm like not even editor, so I'll have to figure out to buy it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:03

Would you have to keep it like an hour or something? Well, you can it could be long.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:06

Yeah. Um But yeah, I'll find like, you know, if Sam wants me to cut out that she's, you know, that her and her fiance sleep in the same bedroom. Um do you believe in ghosts?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:21

Do I believe in ghosts? Yes. But I'm insulted. I haven't dealt with one yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:26

Okay, I have. Um but I it's my apartment is clear. It wasn't for a while. No shit. Um it was my mom's second husband, his his ghost. Um is there like some sort of trend that you think is just so overrated at the moment? Within coffee. Within coffee.

unknown 1:18:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:56

There's this protein shit going on. Okay. I don't like it. I think I haven't tried it. I just think it's stupid.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:03

I think I think you're the second person to say that.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:06

I'm not feeling it.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:08

Um I'm feeling that.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:10

Duncan, I have a Duncan right by me, and they have like a whole sticker on it.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:14

And I'm like, what is this? And then Starbucks does it too, like some protein latte.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:18

Yeah, a lot of people are doing it.

unknown 1:19:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:20

Yeah. I'm not. Do you is there is there like a hill you would die on? Ooh, what do you mean by that question? Like, this is the most important thing, and I will absolutely like stand my like that is I will not move. Like, for me, it's like customer services, and I think Paul said this too. Customer service is the most important thing, I think. And I will absolutely like you can't convince me otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:43

Ooh.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:44

So this goes back to one other question you wanted to ask me before. I feel like in COVID caused a lot of businesses to lose why they opened their business in the first place. All right. So every restaurant, every business is different. They're putting out different products, they do things a different way. But then COVID came and you everyone started kind of bending over and swaying towards whatever the customer wants just to get people through the doors, to the point where, in my opinion, a lot of businesses have become like diners or like a subway where you build your own, do whatever you want, a lot of changes, customizing, blah, blah, blah. So I'm the person that if you're going to a restaurant, you're trying their food their way. Like slight changes, like no tomato, no onion is fine. But the moment you start changing the dish as a whole, or trying to change the dish as a whole, or change how we cook things, yeah. That doesn't sit with me. That's where I'm like, all right, this is our business. If you don't like how we're presenting what we have to show you, take take your money elsewhere. There's another place that might be suitable for you. Have you kicked people out? I have kicked people out. Yeah. I have literally said, this is not the restaurant for you. I'm sorry. Um, some other restaurant may be more suitable to your desires, but did they give you a wanna stop it?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:59

Did they give you a woman?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:00

No, just anger and walk out. Okay. I'm shocked that they didn't give you this like nasty review. He kicked us out because we asked for no tomatoes and no aioli. Um well, look, man, uh this was such a treat. It was so nice to have you.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:20

Oh, it was nice to be here. Honestly, it was another one.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:22

And I I know how long it took you to get here, and I really hope that it takes you less than two hours to get back, to get back to uh South Orange. South Orange. West Orange. Yeah. West Orange. Yeah. Um So yeah, I if you are even if you don't live in West Orange. West Orange, West Orange. Even if you don't live in or in Jersey, if you live in New York, this is absolutely your place is absolutely worth the visit. Um I can't wait to come back. We're we've been talking about coming back. Um I think we were even talking about like having some sort of like big dinner. I don't know if Paul talked to you about that. Yeah. Please do. Which we'll we'll chat with you about. Um but yeah, it's it's so good to have you. It's so good to to chat. And I like I again, you know, you know Paul, I think, more than me, and it's just it's really nice. Uh it's a treat for me to just connect with you. It's nice to sit down with you. Yeah. Um, so thank you. All right. Thank you. Yeah. Well, that's it for today's episode of Extraordinary Joe. If this conversation meant something to you, the best thing you could do is share it with someone who you think might need to hear it. Uh, please leave us a review, hit subscribe, and come back for the next episode. You can find Extraordinary Joe wherever you listen to podcasts, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and check out the video on YouTube. Uh, links are going to be in the show notes. And if you want to stay connected between episodes, you can follow us on Instagram. You can find the show at Extraordinary Joe Podcast on Instagram. And you can follow me at Coffee TalkGuy on Instagram as well. You can also follow BirchCoffee at BirchCoffee. The episode was produced and edited by myself, and the theme music was composed by yours truly. Until next time, keep it extraordinary.