Beyond the Israel Debate

After more than a decade working on issues related to Christians, Jews, and Israel, Robert has come to believe that the conversation we're having is far too small. In this episode, he reflects on a recent discussion about Israel, Gaza, and the war that followed October 7, and explains why he launched Hebraica. 

Robert explains that, while political and military questions matter, they're just one part of a larger story—one involving history, religion, culture, language, and the messy relationship between Jews and Christians.

Along the way, Robert discusses the importance of humility, the biblical story of Jacob and Esau, and why understanding our brother may be the most important task of all.

Links:

"What Does It Mean to Support Israel?," Zealots at the Gate (June 3, 2026)

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everybody, it's Robert. Welcome back to Hebraica. You know, I've been uh working on issues related to Christians and Jews and Israel for over a decade and have established myself to some extent as an expert on these issues, uh, whatever that is. And for that reason, I'm often asked by people who are both sympathetic and critical of the positions I hold, why I hold them, especially after October 7th, 2023. We've we've seen two and a half years of intense warfare in the Middle East, in Gaza, in Lebanon, in Syria, in Iran, and of course inside Israel. People have died, many people have died. And the images of that particularly ugly form of combat have been lodged in the collective mind of people living today. And uh most recently I was asked to appear on a podcast uh that is co-hosted by a friend of mine, Shadi Hamid, and uh his friend, Matthew Kamink, I think is how you pronounce his name, forgive me, Matthew. And that was in fact the question on the table. You, Robert Nicholson, are an evangelical and you support Israel, but how, in light of these images, in light of what's been happening on the ground, can you maintain that position? How do you square it? How is your thinking evolved or not evolved? And I really I appreciated the invitation, I appreciated the conversation. I respect both men uh very much, disagree on on things, but uh respect them nonetheless for the way in which they ask those questions and the intent behind it. And um I I struggled, I'll be honest. I struggled in in trying to answer the questions they asked, questions about the the allegation of genocide in Gaza or the growing feeling among Israelis that scores need to be settled, uh, that revenge to some extent needs to be obtained after these horrendous and and in my view unprovoked events of October 7th, not to mention the years of attacks preceding that. But my struggle to answer those questions played uh some role in accelerating my my launching of this podcast. And so I want to I want to cite that conversation as as formative. And it's provoked me to say to me the something that's that's very obvious, but apparently for many people who are talking about these things out there in the public discourse um is almost invisible, which is that we are all looking at these events through a straw. Talking about Israel and its conduct in Gaza or or in Lebanon, or the way in which Israel's been involved with the United States of America in prosecuting a war against the Islamic Republic of Iran, are, in my view, taking place in a vacuum with almost no sense of the geopolitical, much less the historical, cultural, and religious context within which these events are actually taking place. And for that reason, it's always very hard for me when someone comes to me and speaks about, for example, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a kind of game of checkers. And why is the game board looking the way that it is? And what will it take for the game to be wrapped up? I I just don't see the Israeli-Palestinian conflict through the lens many people, interestingly, on both sides of the conflict, see it. I am looking at it through the lens of the Hebraic tradition. I'm looking at it within the context of the long arc of the history of the Jewish people and its interrelationship with the nations, with the rest of mankind. I'm looking at it through the context of Christian and Jewish relations and the not just the theological content of that relationship as it's evolved over the centuries, but the actual events that have happened between Christians and Jews in Europe and elsewhere. I'm looking at it through the lens of the house of Abraham and the role in which Islam and Arabs in particular are the sons and and daughters of Ishmael and what that means. When I look at a conflict like this, I see layer upon layer upon layer, and I'm very happy to engage in geopolitical analysis. I I certainly wear that hat and have pretty strong views about where we're at and and how things got to be the way that they are today, but that's just part of a much larger analysis. One of the things I I said in the conversation that may be considered controversial by some on my side of this conflict, if I can put it in those terms, that is on the on the pro-Israel side, is that theologically speaking, the state of Israel is not all that interesting to me. I I don't necessarily believe that the state of Israel has any kind of biblical or eschatological significance beyond its role as the shelter, the protector of the Jewish people. I've said it before, I'll say it again. I support the state of Israel because I care about and love the people of Israel and not the other way around. I think many on the pro-Israel side don't think all that much about the Jewish people, about Jews, the actual human beings, whether in Israel or in the U.S. or elsewhere, but rather see the state as an end in and of itself, and support that state for a variety of reasons, some of them theological perhaps, some of them more realist or strategic in nature, but don't seem to have all that much interest, much less sympathy for Jews themselves. And of course, there's at least one reason for that, and that is that Jews historically, who embrace the core tenets of Judaism, do not believe the big thing that we as Christians believe, which is that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the Messiah, King of Israel, who came once to show the way to the kingdom and will come again to establish that kingdom on earth within the context of history. We don't agree on that. And if you ask a Jewish person, whether very religious or not that religious, you will find that that is true. And that's a big difference. That's a big theological difference, and very much at the heart of the Judeo-Christian paradox that that we spoke about in the last episode. And yet I cannot forget the parable that Jesus told about the man with two sons who told both of them to do something, and one of whom said, Absolutely, yes, sir, I will do it, and did not do it. And one who said, Absolutely not, I will not do it. And yet the one who said yes didn't do what he was supposed to do, and the one who said no did do what he was supposed to do. The punchline of that parable was Jesus asking his audience, who do you think did the will of the Father? And the answer, of course, was the Son who did what the Father asked. And that parable is important to me in thinking about Jews and Christians because it reminds me that, yes, we as Christians have affirmed verbally the truth of the Messiahship of Jesus and his role as the once-in-future son of David, king of Israel. And yet one only has to look at Christian history or even more painfully at one's own life and realize that as far as action goes, we as Christians often say the right things and don't necessarily follow through. Conversely, many Jews, although they have rejected Jesus as Messiah, often lead, in my opinion, better lives qualitatively than many Christians I know. That isn't a judgment on salvation for Jews or Christians, but it is a reminder to do what the Apostle Paul told us as Christians to do when approaching Jews and their place in God's heart, which is be humble, don't be arrogant, and lord over this people your righteousness, because we may find at some point that those those tables are turned. If there's any word that must be integrated into the Christian conversation about Jews, it is the word humility. And I think that unfortunately we have raised ourselves up and tend to pound our chest in affirming our righteousness over that of the Jewish people. And I think that objectively, when evaluated through the filter of the words of Jesus, is just not the kind of posture we are supposed to hold towards Jews or towards anyone for that matter. I raise that point only to illustrate how far removed I am from the current conversation about Israel and Iran and Gaza. The conversation is very much conducted through the prism of left and right, Democrat and Republican, Zionist and anti-Zionist proponents of Israel committed a genocide, and those who say obviously Israel did not commit a genocide. Those debates are important, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be speaking about concrete events and evaluating them for what they are. And I have my views on those things, as you'll hear if you listen to that episode of Zealots at the Gate. But that kind of conversation to me is very flimsy and two-dimensional. It's not enough. It doesn't do service to the profundity, to the depth of what I see to be events of monumental historical importance. If you are a Christian, you believe that there is not only a God in heaven who created us, but a God who is actively involved in the events of history, and specifically in the events that are connected to his redemptive plan. We don't understand any of it, I dare say. We see through a glass darkly, as the apostle once said. But there's no doubt that the church is very much connected to that plan, as hard as it is for us to understand. And in my view, and not just mine, but the view of many people, for many branches of Christendom, the Jews too, notwithstanding our big disagreement, are somehow still connected to that grand narrative, to that big story that's unfolding in history. And so when I think about the discussion among Christians about this moment in the history of the world as it relates to the state of Israel and its citizens, I am thinking, yes, about the geopolitical dimensions of that topic and the way in which it affects American national politics. I'm thinking about the media environment and the rise of anti-Semitism and the very real and important debate about how to curb, how to push back, how to contain this sudden explosion of anti-Jewish hatred. I'm thinking of all that. But I'm also thinking about these, about these deeper things, about the the deeper relationship between Christians and Jews, about the way in which the Muslims are part of this story in a way that I still cannot fully fathom. I don't think it's insignificant that there is a small Jewish country here in the modern world that is immediately between two parts of the planet that historically have been both Christian and Muslim, and that this small Jewish state is a kind of rope in a grand tug of war between these two massive communities that, much to the Jewish people's chagrin, emerged from the tradition that they brought into the world. I don't know how anyone can see that as a Christian and not see that as containing a deep mystery. And to the extent that we care about mysteries in history and what God is doing, humble always, but curious always, that seems to be an important part of this conversation. I'm also interested in the renaissance of the Hebrew language and of Hebrew culture in modern times. If you check the playlist on my phone, you'll find just as many Hebrew uh songs as you'll find English. I'm fascinated by modern Hebrew literature and the debates happening within the Hebrew-speaking world about all of the questions that we're all talking about, whether it's the existential questions related to artificial intelligence and the place of humanity going forward, or much more banal conversations about art and about food and about the other elements of culture that go into being a human being. I nobody, in my view, in the Christian world, has any awareness that any of that exists. And among those few that do, there are some. There's very little integration of that part of the conversation with the geopolitical stuff. I'm interested in a whole host of topics that are not necessarily related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or the Arab-Israeli conflict. And it's always bothered me that the only conversation that anyone is ready to have about the Jewish people in the modern world is tied to this conflict. And it forces people to see everything related to Jews and Israelis, Jewish or not, through the prism of this conflict with Arabs. Somebody who has bothered to look behind the curtain. I, like others who've who've taken the trouble, know that there's just so much more to this story. And I can't, as I said on this podcast, look at the issue of Israel, Israelis, Palestine, Palestinians, strictly through the lens of, you know, the peace negotiations and certain uh proposals for dividing up the land and all of that. That's all important and interesting. Uh I speak about it often, taught about it. But that's not, that's not the only entry point. There's just so much more happening that I think we as Christians need to be thinking about. And my model in this, I touched on it a bit on this podcast episode I did, is the reunion of Esau and Jacob. I mentioned that both Christians and Jews for almost 2,000 years have consistently used that biblical motif as the archetypal model of Christian Jewish relations. Jews, when talking about Christians, will, in Jewish sources going way, way back, speak about Esov or Edom, Esau or Edom, and just in the same breath, speak about Muslims as Ishmael, right? Using those biblical personalities as a kind of stand-in, as a corporate personality for these respective communities. It's a fascinating topic as to why Jews relate Christians to Esau. It's even many Jewish thinkers have tried with uh only partial success to wrap their heads around that, but it's but it's a it's a trope, right? And Christians, for our part, have often used going back to the earliest church fathers, the very same metaphor, which for me is fascinating because what it means is that although we disagree on who's Jacob and who's Esau, in which community rightly inherited the blessing that was given to Abraham and his progeny, we nevertheless recognize. You know what I like to call a minimal brotherhood that binds us kind of unwillingly, reluctantly, begrudgingly. Maybe it provokes anger and frustration to the extent that certainly from a Jewish perspective, this is not a relationship, a fraternal relationship that was asked for and has caused no shortage of uh frustration and far worse throughout history. But that brotherhood, that minimal brotherhood, binds us, right? A kind of sibling rivalry. And for that reason, I filter much of how I think about Jewish-Christian relations through the lens of that, of that metaphor, of that biblical story. And I think of the moment when Jacob returned after many years abroad with uh Laban or Laban in Syria, and Esau gathered a bunch of his guys and went out to meet him. Very one of my favorite parts of scripture. I love the story of Jacob and of Jacob and Esau. And I think about that moment and how Esau comported himself in that moment, taking for granted that perhaps we as Christians, as much as we would like to place ourselves in the place of Jacob, may in fact be uh better embodied in Esau. And that to me is part of humility in a situation like this, not grabbing the position of uh honor, but rather embracing the possibility that maybe we are the the lesser brother or the brother who compared uh to the other is part of the story, but not necessarily as pivotal a character. And I see what what Esau did, and I try to model myself on what Esau did. And what did what did Esau do? I go back and read the passage in Genesis. It's it's fascinating, it's multi-step. I'll I'll explain it on another episode. Um, but one of the things that Esau was very intent on doing was asking about the welfare of Jacob and his house. Who are these people with you? Who are they? Who I see women, I see children, I see animals. What's been going on, Jacob? You're my brother. You've been gone for a very long time. I don't know anything about you. I don't know anything about what's been happening. We've been estranged for for years and years. We've both gotten older, we've both matured, we've both learned hard lessons, and here we are. Esau in the Jewish tradition was very anti-Jacob, and he doesn't come off as a good figure. Even when uh behaving himself well and seemingly friendly, he is explained as having a nefarious motive, motive that would pop up later in his behavior towards his brother. But if you read the passage on its face and you try to understand his mentality, you you can't deny that even if he went out to meet his brother in anger, still simmering over Jacob stealing the birthright, when he finally sees his brother, he embraces him and kisses him and cries over the emotions that he feels in that moment. And he asks about his welfare. And I raise all that not to get into the weeds on Jacob and Esau and the theological dimensions of all of that, but to point out that if we as Christians have any interest in this whole debate about Israel, we should bring with us a genuine good faith desire to know about, to understand what our brother is going through, where he's been, what he's seen, what he's endured, what his goals are, what his ambitions are, what his hangups are. And not constructing answers to those questions in our own seminaries and churches, but going out to meet our brother and asking him to explain in his own words what is happening in his life. And that's really where Hebraica wants to go. Through commentary on current events, commentary on texts and tradition, but also in dialogue with Jewish leaders about practical matters, about theological matters, about social and economic issues, about all of the things that the Jewish people, writ large and all its diversity, are dealing with and facing and thinking about. It's an attempt to take this thing called the Judeo-Christian tradition seriously, to own that hyphen and recognize that there are two sides to this relationship. This is not a relationship that will end in unification without the sovereign act of our shared God. It will be different. Jews will be different from Christians. But that shouldn't stop us from caring about and asking about their welfare. That's what Hebraic is really all about, is to provide a forum, not a set of answers or talking points or propositions, theological or geopolitical or or anything else, but a forum to discuss these things. I I don't have all the answers. I haven't figured out Christian-Jewish relations, uh, relations. I I have said uh on previous episodes that I share the Apostle Paul's mystification at the whole thing, but there's something very deep about it, something I feel deep inside me. And I want to provide a space for people like me to think about, hear about, talk about the big questions that are on the table and to go beyond these simple discussions about genocide, not genocide. I I want to talk about that too, but it's not enough. It doesn't do justice to what's really going on in the world right now. I'll admit here at the outset, I'm I'm a bit heterodox in some of my views, mainly to the extent that I haven't figured them all out yet. I'm always amazed when I meet Christians who've got this all figured out, mapped one way or the other. I don't. I don't. I think the more I've worked on these issues, the more I've uh spent time with Jews, uh a wide range of Jews from every conceivable background you could imagine, the more questions I have, that's going to irritate some listeners. But I feel like there are enough people out there who are also mystified and just want to talk about it, just want to find out more information, understand who are these people. And by the way, I think there are, especially these days, more so than I've ever seen before, many, many Jews who want to understand us. I get I get the question all the time, via text, via phone call, via email. What what are Christians thinking? What do you guys believe about us? What what's this end times thing? And what obligation do you have to try to convert me? And do you really believe that Jesus was the Son of God? And if so, what does that mean? And what are the differences between Catholics and Protestants or between Presbyterians and Methodists? I've I've gotten every question under the sun. And every question I get from a Jewish friend reminds me that there is very, very little information about us in their world. And I would say that for reasons we can all guess, Jews for the most part have been pretty indifferent to Christians and Christianity. I sometimes explain that if you pulled a random Israeli Jew in a in a restaurant uh out of the restaurant and asked him, you know, what do you tell me about Christianity as far as you know it? He might say something to the effect of, well, there's uh that Jesus guy, and um there were some crusades, and then there's the Inquisition, and they pretty much hate us, all except this one group called uh Evangelists. That's a common uh mis uh pronunciation of the word. And they seem to like us, but I'm not even sure that they're you know really out for our best interest, and that's pretty much it. And I can tell you that that basic understanding is true not only in Israel, but even surprisingly, here in the United States, that we have not done a good job of explaining ourselves, and we've done an even worse job of showing what it is that we believe and who we are. So this is a two-way conversation, Hebraica. This is not just Christians inquiring into the well-being uh of the Jewish people, but also to some extent an inquiry the other way. And uh I've been very surprised in a good way at how much interest there is in Christians and Christianity among Jews in these last few years. I think many people for took it for granted that there were Christians, millions of Christians in the U.S. and around the world who cared about Israel, and we don't, you know, as Jews really understand what that's all about, and we might even be a little freaked out by some of it. They they they seem a little sketchy, these evangelicals, but hey, you know, great. You know, if you support us, then uh we know we're not mad at you. I think after October 7th, and the feeling, the growing feeling of isolation among Jews in Israel and elsewhere, and a realization that more and more Christians are kind of joining the anti-Israel bandwagon, even evangelical Christians, you know, which in the Jewish mind have been stalwart supporters, has forced many Jews to say, well, wait a minute, what's what's going on here? What what is an evangelical? And why do they differ historically from other Christian groups? And and do those other Christian groups think similar things? Are there friends in those other branches of Christendom? And to the extent that's changing in the evangelical world, why is it changing? What are you guys going through that we need to understand as Jews so that we have a better sense of this Christian, Jewish, Judeo-Christian thing? It's a fascinating time to be alive. It in my mind is one of the most interesting conversations that could be had in 2026, which is why I wanted to create a platform that is not just about geopolitical analysis of Israel and the Near East, but something that goes much deeper and much and much broader. The format here is uh going to change and evolve. I'm very interested to hear what people think about these conversations and some of my commentary. It's uh a two-way street in that respect as well. And I think some of those comments will help me better calibrate what kinds of uh conversations you all out there find the most interesting. My goal at the end of the day uh is understanding, deeper understanding, empathy, if not sympathy. As I said before, I don't think I'm alone. I think a lot of people, both Christians and Jews, are looking for those kinds of conversations. So I thank you all uh for for listening to Hebraica. I'm going to be uh ramping up a Substack page as well, kind of a newsletter that uh provides additional riffs and news and things to think about, all as a way of helping this invisible commonwealth of Jerusalem see itself and better understand itself. We talk about Judeo-Christian culture, but it it's mostly just a term. What I hope to do here is to create a kind of rallying point to take that conversation about Judeo-Christian culture to the next to the next level, and and ultimately to embody it, to do it in a way that I don't think we've we've done before. Send me an email. I would love to read whatever it is you have to say. I am at robert at robertwnicelson.com, and uh I will be sharing the link to the Substack page once that goes live. In the meantime, thanks again for listening. I hope you guys will stay tuned for what's coming up next.