Ep. 17 - Staying the Course: Leading Procurement Through Crisis with Clarity and Courage - with Dieter Dehoorne

What if the secret to resilient procurement leadership starts with daring to be vulnerable?

In this episode, host Martina Buchhauser speaks with Dieter Dehoorne, Group Senior Vice President and CPO of Global Procurement at Vestas, about the human side of transformation, and what it takes to lead through uncertainty.

Dieter shares his leap from Volvo to Vestas, navigating a new industry amid global crisis, and the moment he began to question his leadership for the first time in decades. His story doubles as a playbook: how to stay the course by building a strong team, leading with authenticity, and anchoring the function in trust, strategy, and partnership.


You'll learn:

1. Why vulnerability can be a leadership strength in complex environments
2. How to build a high-performing team after a crisis of trust
3. Dieter’s strategy to stay the course: team, clarity and partnerships
4. How to create impact by reducing complexity and strengthening collaboration
5. Why modern procurement needs early and deep supplier collaboration


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Get in touch with Dieter Dehoorne on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dieter-dehoorne-48885623/


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About the host Martina Buchhauser:
Martina Buchhauser is a global leader with extensive knowledge of the automotive industry, and its shift towards sustainable technologies and low-carbon business practices. Her leadership journey includes executive roles in Global Procurement and Supply Chain Networks at General Motors, MAN, BMW, and Volvo Cars, where she served as Chief Procurement Officer and on the management board. She is a senior advisor at H&Z Management Consulting and a non-executive director on several company boards. Martina enjoys hiking, golfing, and skiing, and values time with her family and friends from around the world. She is passionate about leadership and actively engaged in developing and promoting talent.

Get in touch with Martina Buchhauser on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martina-buchhauser/ 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

I also understood that I was really authentic and genuine about wanting to make a change, right? And I think the important thing is that it's not only, of course, my leadership, but also I wanted also my team to step up and take their role.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Welcome to the Procurement Initiative Leaders Podcast, the ultimate resource for top-level procurement professionals looking to stay ahead of the curve and drive meaningful change within their organizations. I'm your host, Martina Buchhalter, founder of the Procurement Initiative Think Tank, and senior advisor at HMZ, Europe's leading management consultancy. Join me as I sit down with global leaders in procurement and other relevant areas to uncover the latest trends, strategies and insights that are shaping the future of procurement. We tackle crucial topics like leadership, technology, value creation, cost management, resilient supply chains, innovation, and many more. Ready to up your game as a leader in procurement? Let's jump into this episode of the Procurement Initiative Leaders Podcast with me, Martina Buchhauser. Well, hello everyone. I am very happy to have another podcast guest today. My guest today is Dieter De Horne. Dieter, welcome to our podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Since October 2020, uh, and that was the time when you and I worked together, and you kind of opened up to me that you're no longer working with me. Just kidding. Um, but since October 2020, um, you are the group senior vice president uh of global procurement at Vestas. And um obviously before that, you had a very long career um at Volvo Cars in the areas of logistics, supplier quality, procurement, supply chain. So you really know what's going on in the supply chains and how to handle crises, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

So and there have been many. Uh and what I think is funny, even if you know people think, oh, there's there's no pandemic, there's no chip crisis, well, there is still so much going on just in the daily global business, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

And then uh, of course, now with uh tariffs and and new surprises, even more, right? Great. So what I wanted to do today, Dieter, is talk a little bit about leadership because I think that is just such an such an important part of our business, and um very important also for the community, the procurement initiative, but also for everyone listening into the podcast to uh to see how I can maneuver my day-to-day business as a leader. So very important. I would like to uh tap your experience here and uh share that, and uh then we can also talk a bit about what's actually happening in in the industries today, what's happening in Europe, what's happening in the world, all so much intertwined as we know. And uh I also want to pick your brain brain a little bit about you know how do you handle this in your business uh with your experience of automotive and um and now in the alternative uh energy sector. Are you okay with it?

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And uh I think I can uh I can start talking a little bit about um the leadership part, right? Because um, as you said, five years ago, I uh I came to you and said I was uh resigning from uh from from uh from Volvo Cars and procurement, and uh and and that was a very uh as you know very well, that was a very big decision for me, uh for many different reasons, because I had been uh working you know 20 uh 23 years in Volvo Cars, a very big part of my life, obviously, right? In different countries, uh Sweden, China, US, and back in Sweden. Uh I was happy where where I was also uh working with you, Martina, and the rest of the team. Uh, but at the same time, I thought that this was an opportunity that uh you know that was um yeah that uh that really attracted me because it was also uh you know my first CPO role uh in uh and uh uh which was very appealing to me, although at the same time a bit uh scary, uh you know, uh nervous, but but very appealing. Um so that's uh that's that's why I made the move back in uh in October uh 2020, which uh I should also remind I should also remind ourselves was in the midst of uh Corona, right? Uh so back to uh back to the disruptions you talked about. It was uh looking back, it was probably not the best time to uh or the timing of it to uh to move because uh I think after after that uh you know during that move in the midst of corona, there came a lot of other disruptions as as we know about, right? So so I think from a leadership perspective, this really uh was a very big test for me. Uh, because uh I also, you know, one thing is you uh first you know, first CPO role, um complete change of industry, because we will talk about that later. But wind industry is very uh immature if you compare that to automotive, so which brings a lot of uh challenges, which I knew were gonna be there, but uh probably not to the extent that it actually was. Uh so also professionally, uh, I think I was very uh very um challenged uh with uh with the the way this this industry is is working with procurement, but also the collaboration uh with the stakeholders, with the suppliers uh uh is very uh very different to to automotive. And then the culture aspects, I uh as I said before, I worked in uh you know in China and the US and also um from Belgium. So when I moved to Sweden 24 years ago, I uh I was very um uh uh aware about cultural differences. So I was always prepared and and you know uh I was prepared myself to understand uh the cultural differences of countries. And moving to Denmark, I actually made the mistake, uh probably rookie mistake to assume that it was, you know, it's only three hours ferry from Gothelberg. So what can it be as a difference? But it's actually a big difference. So all in all, I think it was uh from a leadership perspective, uh it challenged me. Uh all of these things came together, including, of course, the pressures of the of the job and so on, which also meant that uh that it was a difficult start for me uh in uh in the first year or a year or two, um, which really tested me uh personally uh but also professionally, and not in the competence of procurement as such, but uh in my leadership, both uh leadership towards my my leaders uh in the executive management of Vestos, but also the the leaders um you know um reporting to me and in my team.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

But you seemed, uh if I could just interrupt, because you seemed to have strived really well, um, you know, as how I met you as a leader and how we uh worked together. Um of course, my style has has been like that, to uh give a lot of room, of course, and empower people to do the job because you can't do it all anyway by yourself. Might as well have the right people around you and you know be clear about the strategy and put the work into that um to really be on the same page and then you know, once this is hashed out, let let people do the job. And of course, if you've been in in automotive and we all had been in automotive, then of course we spoke the language and then it's a bit easier. But um it's also what I have experienced in there were situations where you felt you did not have the trust from your leaders, right? And that immediately kind of took away all your guts, right? All your courage, all your what you would do and what you you know think is the right thing to do. Um and I and that I think is hard. And you you mentioned to me, you know, once that this is kind of what had happened. I know many people don't don't easily talk about that because of course it's hard, it's admitting that you have felt maybe insecure, right? But not because of your experience. You you've been in procurement in supply chain. I mean, there's nothing people can tell you, right? Um or uh or judge better. Um, but yeah, tell us about that.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Yeah, no, I I think uh you know the the as I said before, I think the the the combination of the the pressures in the job, the uh the lack of trust I was feeling, and and also the uh the uh let's say the uh sometimes the the the sometimes the macromanaging approach of things also led me to uh you know to to doubt in myself at a certain point in time. Because because when you when you leave a when you leave a company where you have been for 23 years, you have your network, you have your reputation, you have your track record, you can all rely on that. When you then go to another company which has a completely different culture, different maturity, and you do that in the midst of corona, Ukraine-Russia war, raw material explosion, inflation, you know, all these pressures which come on top, and then you you don't have that track record, that reputation, that trust, that then you then you uh then you you come into a situation where which was actually the first time in my life where I where I started doubting myself, you know, am I is there something wrong with me, or is there you know something wrong with the environment that I'm in, right? And it took me quite a while to to figure out to your point, right, that uh, you know, um there's a reason why I got hired for this job. It's not because I don't have the right competence and the right skills. And and and and this whole situation uh manifested itself in in you know also in uh in the way I was because I was not feeling well myself, the way I was leading my team was also different than what I was used to. And uh and uh that that also showed itself in employee engagement scores and so on, which I was also struggling with because in my 23 years in Volvo, as I said, I had many different jobs, many different countries. I always had very good engagement scores. I was uh I was a liked leader and a respected leader, and and uh and and uh so that was never an issue. And here somehow it became an issue, right? But um, and and it took me a while, which is kind of surprising, uh also to me, right? But it took me a while to figure out that actually there was uh there was nothing wrong with me. And um and uh and uh and when I figured that out, then I also decided for myself, you know, now is time to do something about it, because I can't, you know, can't continue. Uh you know, you you don't become successful, you also don't feel well personally, right? In situations like that. So there's no other way to address it. Uh either you have to leave, which I'm not the type of guy, or you have to uh confront it and and and and find what is a solution, right? So so and that's also when I uh when I took that decision, I also uh uh you know explained that to my team. I was very open about it, about uh uh how I felt, and and then I also uh uh I I uh you know I explained to the team and I I I committed to the team that I wanted to do something about it, and I asked if they were on board, and then and they were so then we hired uh a team coach uh to you know to help me through this uh through uh through my leadership, but also how do I get the team to help me and help us as a team to to become a high performing team, right? So so I uh I think that that uh and then now you know now two years later uh we have a completely different team, you know, uh the engagement scores went through the roof. Uh the collaboration in the team is is on a whole new level. The reputation of the leadership team in the organization is from two years ago being you know disconnected individuals working in asilos to being an aligned procurement leadership team was one of the last feedbacks we got from the organization, which was for me very, very motivating because that was exactly what I wanted to uh to achieve, right? So so uh all in all, I think uh it just shows to uh that you know all leaders are human beings. Uh I think uh you know, if you um I think I think you know being open uh uh about how uh how you feel as a leader is is important, although not easily done and also not easily accepted everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Uh but I think from you're actually vulnerable, right? You show to people that you are vulnerable and you open up and you say, I don't feel well, it's something wrong. There's you know, and I but I think that is exactly when people realize that there's it's so humane, right? It's so it you can so much sympathize and empathize with someone saying, I don't feel well, because I don't know why, I might not know why, but I don't feel whether there's something wrong. So um, because I think everyone at times, you know, feels like that. And why not? I mean, it's a good example that talking about things actually, you know, sparks and starts a process that was very helpful.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Yeah, and I think it also um, you know, even if you don't talk about it, then either the team feels it or your peers feel it, or or or you're not the authentic leader that you uh want to be, right? So uh so I think that's also important, and also an important lesson for me has been that you know, once I opened up to the team and and and uh talked about it, they also understood that I was really authentic and genuine about wanting to make a change, right? And and and I think the important thing is that it's not only, of course, my leadership, but also I wanted also my team to step up and take their role so that we as a team become you know uh uh a high performing team, right? And and I think uh you know the biggest for me, the biggest uh uh confirmation is that now this team is recognized as being you know uh very collaborative, high performing and and professional.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Uh that's great feedback, you know, and that's almost the best feedback you can get from your ones, you know, from from your colleagues, your peers, uh, from other functions, uh, and maybe even from external partners.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Yeah, very good. Well, thank you very much for being so open and sharing this because I think that is something that happens to a lot of people, and people still don't dare, really. And you really dared. I mean, you have the guts and the courage to uh address this. Because you say, like you say, otherwise, you know, just leaving or you know, having this kind of inward trying to find a solution is just maybe probably gonna make you sick, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Exactly. It eats you from the inside, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:52

So yeah, so great things happening. Yeah, very good. Um, I I really hope that you know people listening in reflect a little bit on you know how they feel every day, because it can be so much, it can unleash, I think, so much energy, uh, positive energy and power that you know you have a lot of fun resolving all these issues together.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Yeah, and I think one one more uh on this note, right? Is that uh you know two months ago we had uh so we had a procurement lead, we we assembled the leaders of procurement globally uh once per year. So we had a two-day session, and I I told this story to everybody uh because now the next step is actually for all the teams below the procurement leadership team to go through the same similar team journey. Right. So I opened up to the whole team uh about what my journey, and also then we had a couple of people from the procurement leadership team also on stage explaining what their journey was after we started this, right? So so it's it's a very powerful uh tool, actually, very, very powerful tool, which gives a lot of energy back. So the the it energized and also tells all the leaders in the organization that it's actually okay and and good to talk about these things, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Absolutely, and that is that first step that is needed to uh to start this uh this train. Very good, super. Well, thank you so much for for sharing. Um I I also wanted to talk a bit about because it it has a lot to do with how you deal with those issues, especially now in such turbulent times. I mean, how do you deal with these issues every day? It has a lot to do with leadership and how you how you go about it, because you could just, you know, everything could drive you crazy and be a big issue, or you could just say, all right, well, let's see what we can really influence and what we can really take care of. Because I think there's always so much at home you can do. Basically, you know, cleaning ship a bit in your own organization, which you might have done now in the last two years, but there's always, you know, with your peers in the in the company, there's so much you can do in terms of complexity reduction, you know, before you even start thinking about new tariffs here and there. And don't get me wrong, this is a big deal for procurement. But you know, sometimes to avoid even more of a mess, it helps to kind of clean up a bit in the own organization, in the product portfolio, in your processes, in you know, in everything you do every day. So, how are you going about? Or where would you say is the difference between you know automotive and you know, the last the 23 years you've been you've been taking care of um supply chains in automotive and now more in this in the wind sector? What what would you say is the big difference and how do you go about all these surprises coming up every day? Keep keeping the team a bit calm.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Yeah, I I think I mean one thing is to your point, all the surprises coming up every day, right? I think uh with the volatility of the world today, uh we you know we cannot take decisions in procurement or in supply chain, you know, based upon uh a tweet or a new uh press release, or because the the the we all know that you know to to move a supply chain or to change a supply chain from one continent to another takes years, right? Uh and uh so therefore uh so that's from uh you know from uh from this volatility perspective, it's important, like you say, do you say yourself that we stay calm and see what will happen. That of course doesn't take away the fact that you know businesses are hit by uh you know tariffs and costs and so on. Um but that but that's a that's a comment which is valid for all uh industries and all you know all uh all um uh yeah companies that are uh trading across different regions of the world right now, right? So I think the biggest difference for me between the wind and and automotive, uh I mean there are many differences, but but I think the uh the um the challenge the we first of all we need to understand that automotive is a very uh yeah man many years, right? Uh uh wind is uh you know is a couple of decades, right? So of course the the maturity is uh is uh completely uh different because of this of the short history of wind compared to automotive. Um but I think the biggest challenges is uh I would say that I see in my role is in the cross-functional collaboration, um, where we still have huge opportunities, right? Uh both when it comes to um uh to the internal uh cross-functional collaboration uh uh across uh with from with from between procurement and the many, many stakeholders. And here I'm talking both uh on uh on the direct material side, you know, so but also on the construction, on the logistics, on the indirect procurement, and also on the service procurement. So, how do we create value together? Uh, where I think on the direct side of the business we are quite mature, so I would say close to automotive, not entirely yet, but and then if you go from uh then construction, logistics, and then uh service, then then you become less and less immature. And then the second one linked to this is how we work. Uh, I think we have a long way to go still in how we create value and take waste out of the system together with our suppliers, uh because this is also not not yet baked in into the tradition of and and the heritage, the DNA of of wind, right? Which I think an automotive is a lot more, right? Where suppliers suppliers are uh are into the design process or are uh uh are are you know an integral part of many things that we that that is being done in automotive when it comes to you know how do you get manufacturability into the design how do you get cost into the design how do you get logistics into the design how do you get quality into the design how do you get sustainability into design right all of that is done in a in a in the in in a collaborative uh uh simultaneous engineering way while while in the wind historically it has been more sequential if you if you understand what I mean yeah so that so these these these would for me be the the two biggest uh differences then I think one other difference which I think which is positive then is that the the I would say the people in wind are extremely uh passionate because of the the the the values because we because they work for a company that is you know delivering renewable energy solutions the purpose exactly the purpose behind a company leads to to uh to uh you know uh teams and people and and and and uh colleagues which are super motivated and dedicated and you know passionate about what they do which is which is super nice right so that is really cool to hear and I I think the two things surprise me a little bit I mean that you say between automotive and wind really the biggest difference is how people collaborate. And that is I mean that hasn't always been the case in automotive it's been a long process to get you know people work together between let's say manufacturing uh RD engineering and procurement I mean it's not it's not so long ago right um since we've really built up these cross-functional teams that you know started to plan and strategize things together and then went out there together to the suppliers or um or even had this very early involvement of procurement in a whole design process to make sure that things kind of stay in a good cost frame in a quality frame and so on and maybe even suppliers are on board way earlier because they are the experts too right so so that's interesting that this this point of and I think it always kind of boils down to this very point is how people collaborate both internally and with the suppliers and I I would still claim that even in automotive and especially in automotive there is still a lot to do um I'd say especially when it comes down to working with the suppliers and treating suppliers as your partners that is actually with more trust here we're back to the trust issue um with a bit more trust um even make the pie bigger and then as I like calling it and then sharing it right so that's um that's an interesting point and I think that goes for I mean anything all businesses uh in the world right yeah and especially when it comes to a global business then it it becomes even harder and it's so funny that you say I mean three hours away Denmark yes it is different right in Europe we have very different cultures and it's it's always good to understand and but it's also again it's kind of a leadership trait to um and competency to figure out how do you bring the teams together although they might have been brought up in very different and it's also about bringing the trust and the you know the the you know what value do you do you get out of that collaboration right because I I think if you are uh I think you know in in in uh what what I also mean by more immature industry is wind is that you know uh in in automotive you sometimes had to get engineering to not talk to suppliers too much right uh here sometimes here here sometimes is the other way around you want to invite you know the the the the cross function partners to be at the suppliers to actually learn more and and learn from each other and and thereby build more better products and and more efficient products right so but yeah you're right in automotive there were also of course areas where we could do even better right that's clear absolutely but a lot has happened and um a lot of really good things have happened and I think everyone uh well there's good examples that you can take and good business deals being made um I remember some of the things we have uh had to tackle together so yeah it comes down to trust and and collaboration um so that's uh that's very good um I'm thinking a bit we've talked about automotive wind well now obviously the whole defense sector is uh is coming a bit up uh more upstreamstream so to speak um with all our governments now putting more effort and more money into uh into um the our defense um in general yeah I wonder a bit I mean we're talking about a hell of a lot of money right is we all equipped um you know spending that much money and wouldn't it be really really helpful to invite some of these very experienced um buyers in some of those industries and corporations kind of to help the government and do the procurement part yeah um I was thinking about that a lot um because so many mistakes have been made that you could actually avoid right yeah no it's uh it's a valid uh point because uh to your I mean to your point then the defense industry is ramping up everywhere as we speak because of well known uh well known reasons right um uh so so and and uh to and as you say it's a it's a tremendous amount of of money which is which is of course for uh you know for for for us uh in the wind industry also a little bit of a I wouldn't call it a threat but uh it's uh it's it's money that is you know if you if you if you um what I mean by that if you go back to uh you know the COVID and then Ukraine Russia war at the start remember the whole dialogue around the energy dependency that we had especially also in Germany right the dependency to uh to Russia right so there was a lot of talk about and there still is a lot of talk about energy security energy independency uh and and and also the which was also also stimulating the the renewable uh energy sector such as uh you know uh Vestos right um because of the fact that you can create a uh independent source of energy you're not dependent on the supply of gas or petroleum you're you're dependent on the wind right and and solar and so on so which is of course very different and I think now with defense it's uh you know with everything that's happening uh unfortunately defense gets a little bit higher on the uh or at least uh on the agenda right uh for as I said for and for also for for necessary reasons as we all know about but yeah it's uh it's a valid point um if there's a if there's billions and billions and billions of euros to be uh spent and also an industry that is going to ramp up capacity wise industrial wise uh you know in Europe then then I think there's a huge way a huge place for procurement professionals to play in that uh because they will of course need to spend the money uh wisely uh and and uh on on the right stuff as well to um and also the collaboration right uh unfortunately many of the defense companies are very national driven but if we could have a European you know approach to this uh where also procurement can come in I think there's a tremendous opportunity for and there must be a huge learning curve.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

I mean if you if you think about what we've all seen over so many years and decades and you know how you could actually now know so much more about how things could be handled. Yeah so there must be a huge learning curve. But we'll see and we'll hope that um renewable energy will still play a big role hopefully um because it really helps with the uh not being dependent um but also helps of course the uh the the climate change that uh that we face so so hopefully there's going to be some balance um yeah so Dieter I want to wrap up our session um it's been fantastic to have you um could I get you know some wise words from you again for our super cool community um where you could maybe say in a few words again what do you do personally every day to kind of stay coarse and make sure people are kind of you know with you on this train?

SPEAKER_00 31:22

That's a very uh difficult question to answer but I think you know in general I think uh I would say I mean first of all I think we all know all of us that are working procurement that procurement is the department that always gets involved in you know it doesn't matter what the world throws throws at us you we are s always somehow impacted right especially if the 70 or 80 percent of the value comes through suppliers then you are automatically impacted every time something changes in the world or or the world throws at you so I think the key for me is to to have uh you know the the what keeps me calm is have a you know have have a great strong team which I talked about you know a team where you can feel at home uh also as a person not only as a leader but also as a person right that you value the time that you spend together with with your team I think because that when you have that trust and you have that good experience in the team then then then um then I think that is a very important prerequisite to be able to stay uh calm through through whatever the world throws at you then I think the other ingredient is to have a very clear strategy uh um you know we talk a lot about and all industries and and we have also talked about it Martina this you know the how what what is a resil resilient supply chain right so yeah uh and and there are 10,000 different answers to that question depending on what challenges you're facing but I think so a very clear strategy and that you uh you know stay stay the course to that strategy and not change it because of everything that's happening in the world constantly because unfortunately I think the new you know if you go back now you and I have worked many years the world will never be as stable as it was in the 80s or in the 90s or in the or in the 2000 right so so I think to it to to to you know that's also an important aspect to have a strategy and and stay the course and then of course if you know things are happening geopolitical tensions and so on um and and then the other thing for me is you know um the tariffs as an example procurement will never be able to solve that alone so how do you work together with your customers uh you know how do you lobby together with uh with your customers the the the or the governments and so on so they understand the impact on on the on the on the local employment on the local on the costs on the uh so it's so you know this collaboration across the value chain is is something I think that we where I'm working now investors is actually going really well because we you know we have the impact on the tariffs but then we also have a dialogue with the you know immediately with the customers you know yeah and then the customers of course then have the dialogue also with their governments or you know instances because it has implications right so so uh and I think create creating that transparency and visibility on on the impact of things is is uh is also a key enabler of being able to stay yeah calm uh and and then you know and then develop uh you know a strategy on how to handle uh hand handle those things right um but I I think for me the most important thing of how to stay calm because as a procurement professional if you don't stay calm you you you you go crazy right you're insane yeah you're insane so it's to i is for me the most important thing uh is to have a team where I trust I can I'm able to trust the team and I'm also uh uh able to rely and and trust that that to rely on their competences but also on their experience right and uh yeah I think that's for me the biggest because then you know whatever the world throws at you then you you you you you'll somehow be able to uh to to handle it right so uh yeah that that's how that's for me what keeps me you know um sane yeah or store whatever you should call it good good yeah yeah so I heard team strategy and new ways of partnering up yeah yes exactly as a staying course thank you that's um that's probably really helpful for many people and um we'll uh we'll trust that uh this is happening yeah and um I thank you very much for taking the time for us today um you best of luck yeah in the supply chain and with the team and um well stay the leader you are I would say perfect thanks Martina thanks a lot yeah bye bye thank you for joining us on the Procurement Initiative Leaders podcast I really hope you enjoyed it looking for more procurement insights tips and developments from leading procurement professionals join our procurement initiative community on LinkedIn just open LinkedIn and search for the procurement initiative community and be sure to hit that subscribe button to never miss another episode