Ep. 2 - The CPO Leadership Agenda: Exploring Challenges, Solutions, and Evolutions in Procurement in 2024

With the new year already in full swing, boardrooms are abuzz with pertinent questions, existing geopolitical disputes continue while new ones emerge, and new technologies rapidly enter the market. There's never been a more challenging, yet opportunistic moment to be a leader in procurement.

In this episode, Kathleen Harmeston, a seasoned CPO, Business Transformation Advisor and Non-Executive Director, sits down with Richard McIntosh to map the evolving role of procurement in 2024 and beyond. She offers insights into topics like how procurement leaders can better respond to geopolitical and market changes, enhance their digital readiness, develop leadership skills, and more.


You'll learn:

1. How to align procurement with the corporate strategy for better outcomes
2. How digital systems can enable more strategic, data-driven approaches in procurement
3. How procurement is evolving and how it can add more value in 2024
4. How to prepare procurement teams for a future of strategic importance

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Get in touch with Kathleen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathharmeston/

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About the host Richard:
Richard McIntosh, Partner at H&Z Management Consulting, has spent over 23 years helping procurement leaders succeed. Richard loves rugby & he is a kids' rugby coach. He spends his time outside of work with his wife and kids, and he likes nothing better than helping a bunch of kids develop through sport to be their best selves.

Get in touch with Richard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mcintosh-richard/

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Thanks to our friends at SAWOO for producing this episode with us! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

How do we optimize costs? How do we optimize value? How do we drive through innovation with supply chains? How do we bring the answers in advance to our colleagues, to our stakeholders, to the board, and be more proactive in terms of the next opportunity that's there within automation or robotics or whatever it may be. But markets are changing, subsectors are changing. It's actually being almost like a fairly elite financial analyst at the table, predicting from a supply market point of view and a supplier point of view, which ones to bet on and why.

SPEAKER_04 0:50

Welcome to the Procurement Initiative Leaders Podcast, the ultimate resource for top-level procurement professionals looking to stay ahead of the curve and drive meaningful change within their organizations. I'm your host, Richard McIntosh, partner at HZ, Europe's leading procurement consultancy. Join me as I sit down with Global Leaders in Procurement to uncover the latest trends, strategies, and insights that are shaping the future of procurement. We tackle crucial topics like leadership, technology, value creation, cost management, supply chain resilience, and many more. Ready to up your game as a leader in procurement? Let's jump into this episode of the Procurement Initiative Leaders Podcast with me, Richard McIntosh. Today, Kath Harmerston joins me on the show. Kath is a non-executive executive director, wealth of board level experience, and also has um taken and led a number of procurement transformations. So a real pleasure, Kath, to have you on the show. Now, um you've you've had some big procurement roles um in the in the past and you've taken on some big challenges. So um would you mind giving the the podcast listeners a little feel for your um your CV?

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Sure. Um I started off life as um a research chemist, and um uh after that I uh I took on a bridging role between uh procurement and research. And that's how I got into procurement, by the way, is decoding the commercial requirements for a research department. Um I then moved into so my my operational uh procurement roles were with uh BASF and Philips, so in the electronics and chemical industry.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

And um I had the opportunity to move into consulting and I joined KPMG Consultant um as uh a project director, specializing in procurement and and supply chain um and being responsible for their methodologies and um helping clients out. So um I had the benefit of working with lots and lots of different clients, um uh including uh the Ministry of Defence.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Um and uh the Ministry of Defense was a really interesting case study because it was 24 billion pounds of spend at DES, um, spanning over 300 um clients' involvement in the project and over 100 consultants.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

It was a three-year program, and uh we managed to deliver um a significant number of billions of pounds of savings and innovation. Um we achieved the Management Consulting Awards for that. So I was part of a team who was award-winning, and it was wonderful just to be inspired by like-minded individuals and have fun whilst doing that and learning on the ground. Um, I then became a managing partner for Atis Consulting that had taken over KPMG Consulting, um, heading up the defense sector and specializing in procurement and supply chain. And in my early 40s, I decided that I should uh learn what it's like to be uh a procurement officer on the other side of the fence. So I jumped over into um the CPA role for the Royal Mail Group. Um, just prior to um privatization and uh a quasi-public sector organization that uh was bound by a lot of red tape and a lot of regulations. I was really keen to see how uh we could manage change and take it up to um a good status, you know, um a world-class status. And I was privileged to be part of an absolutely fabulous team that was nominated for best in class and uh had platinum accreditation by 2013. Uh we are also award-winning in terms of our efforts at what we did and achieved there. And um we had a 2.3 uh billion cost base, 28,000 suppliers, and uh were able to take out a significant amount of cost reduction over a five-year period. Um, and that was at the time where Moya Green or De Moya Green um joined. She joined in uh just in 2010-11. Yes, and she was a huge sponsor of mine in terms of the change program that uh resulted after that. So we were able to, uh the team was able to deliver 300 million pounds savings in six months on a cost space of 2.3 billion. So um I cut my teeth on an executive role in in the Royal Mail. Um, I took on uh a CPO role for um the co-op group, which was um a short-term experience for me. Yeah, and after that um I uh I was also a non-exec director for the Ministry of Defence, DENS, with a large portfolio and able to see things from a different perspective. So being uh an executive is very different to a non-exec in terms of the roles, the responsibilities. Um, I was part of the um risk and order committee as well as the main board. Um, and uh it was a huge opportunity to actually get insight from that perspective. Yeah, since then I've grown my portfolio. I'm um um an advisory board member for breaking barriers innovations now that look after um socioeconomic challenges in the UK. Uh I uh I'm a fractional C-suite uh interim, as they call it now, which means uh I actually um provide support and uh um short-term offset for uh chief execs or chief procurement officers if they need one or two days a week decompression or think about strategic aspects or manage day-to-day activities, I do that. So I've got a balanced portfolio of non-exec work as well as exec.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

I get involved in projects as well, so maybe startups, mergers and acquisitions. Uh, and so I'm got a much broader base of activity now than just procurement alone.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Um, but my passion and my heart lies in procurement and supply chain, always will. I actually volunteer uh in palliative care.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Um and um I actually uh I'm a member, uh Freeman of the Worshipful Company of Educators in in London. So I get involved in all sorts of activities around education and the development of leaders for the future.

SPEAKER_04 7:32

Excellent. Well, Cat, thank you, and welcome to the show. Let's talk about what you see happening at board level, because it's really interesting the outlook for 2024. Um, and then we can drop into how does procurement fit into that?

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Yeah, well, interesting from what I'm seeing at the board level is um they really have an appetite to understand how procurement can add value and how a procurement plays its part in the delivery of goals and objectives for the coming year, but also the three and five year plan. Interestingly, I picked up a couple of um articles um out there from KPMG and FAP, and the stats say it all, really. So 77% of execs say they cannot access good spend data real time.

SPEAKER_04 8:23

Okay. That's a surprise.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Yeah. 50% of execs say they cannot find alternative sources quickly enough. 42% experience reconciliation issues.

SPEAKER_03 8:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

37% say processes are semi-automated or manual.

SPEAKER_03 8:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Yeah. 41% say um they find adoption of systems difficult, so the P2P or business uh management system. 47% believe they're vulnerable to disruption upstream to cost and labour crises. Makes sense. 43% say they don't have visibility to their supply chains up down to tier four.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

And 53% say inflation will impact supply chains longer term. So they're the kind of questions that are going on at the boardroom right now, apart from profitability and eBig DA, of course. I mean put that to the um Yeah, but it's how accessible is this service? How user-friendly are the systems? How quickly and agile are you as a service to respond to the geopolitical issues, perhaps the supply chain issues that we've got, um, inflationary changes and innovation. So it's almost like there is a pull environment now at the board after COVID and the pandemic. Um, but there's kind of like a um like a gap, an airlock in between what the procurement officer is decoding the mission and goals and objectives to be, and how they're received at board level. So I think that's the CPOs out there too, to really take that on board and be more prescriptive and actually talk about what the challenges are.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

What they can do with the budgets that they have, and be open and honest about you know, the shopping list of must do versus can do versus should do.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

Yeah. There's um I mean it's interesting. There's there's an assumption there that procurement functions have this under control. You know, there's a there's an assumption that we we we have spend visibility, there's an assumption that we have supplier visibility down to down to tier four. Um and also the interesting one there about the systems that that that we have with this you know suite of systems of available to us. Um so quite interesting that that you know that that's what they in a way expect. Um and and then of course, then it's the challenge of of translating their their strategy into what's possible from a function perspective.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Yeah, and you know, systems, um, they're only as good as what you put in. So poor data in equals poor information out. And so, you know, it's it's how well they're integrated into the organization, um, how we train and educate not just the procurement staff, but actually the users. And how um agile are these systems? Are they portable? Can you know, can you dial in on a mobile? Do you understand why the preferred suppliers have been chosen and what they're doing for your budget and for the rest of your colleagues? So if you've got a large-scale organization with many business, different business divisions and many budget holders, they'll want to know why we're choosing this supplier over their preferred suppliers. It's it's a fairly reasonable question to ask. Why should we be choosing supplier A? Well, we can be using supplier B. And if you've got a dashboard of readily easily consumable information about what's available to you, why you should choose that, and easy flow of the system and process, it makes for better customer satisfaction, which is an important KPI, by the way.

SPEAKER_04 12:18

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, fact, you know, facts-based decision making, isn't it? Taking away that um that emotive decision making and it based on a full range of data that's available to you.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Yeah, um, and it's not going to be perfect by any means, but having spend per supplier, per business unit, per budget, uh, per category, uh, real time that's relatively accurate, and having an understanding of your third-party liabilities, particularly in difficult uh financial times, is really important. So if the um chief financial officer gives you a call and says, hey, where are we at with our total liabilities and how much are we spending on X, Y, and Z, then not being able to access that and have a representative, meaningful report quickly is uh it's name it.

SPEAKER_04 13:09

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um Kath, I wanted to just just go back and take take it, we talked about systems a bit there, but take it back to that board level, board level expectation. Um, and yeah, you know, that that that kind of the core proposition of procurement being being value, drive drive driving value for the business. So just wanted to get your thoughts on, you know, what you know, what do you see procurement's value add in in 2024 and next next in three the three-year plan?

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Right. So I think for me, there's the there are five key things on the agenda. The first one is agility and uh digital readiness. How quick are we to adapt to issues, challenges, need to change suppliers around, um, challenges in geopolitical circumstances and so on. How protected is um our supply base? Um, and how up to speed and up to date are we with AI, you know, the trends and automation, and how can we how can we be ready for that? Yeah. How user-friendly are we? Next one is profitability. Um and it's it's moving away from did cost to should cost.

SPEAKER_04 14:25

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Uh third one, uh, which is a bit of a curveball, but it's a necessary one, particularly for businesses um who are trading over 500 million pounds and have over 500 staff, they must report on ESG.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Sustainability, um uh concurrence, audit trails, what are we doing in the supply chain to make that an end-to-end, clean, clear, safe process? But that requires a different skill set and it requires a lot of attention to detail in terms of qualifying suppliers, understanding right down to tier four what we're doing, how we're doing it, being able to report on that, to audit that, and to have clarity and how that affects supplier selection processes and category strategies. So that's big on the agenda, not just giving lip service, by the way. And it often is, it's just have we tick the box. Have we met our quarters?

SPEAKER_04 15:28

Yeah, you know. The research that's coming out of the the procurement initiative is is backing that up completely. That it's you know, it's still top of the agenda, it's still being discussed, but then you've got you've got this gap between what's being talked about and and really what's what's happening. And you know, and that that's got to be that gap's got to be bridged. And a procurement function's got to step into that and and provide that, you know, firstly the the compliance aspect, as you said there, the the ESG reporting. And and then there's actually the the impact of it. You know, how do we build that into our selection criteria? How do we build it into our supplier management? Um, you know, how do we come, you know, how do we begin to um compete based on based on that requirement?

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Exactly. And and more importantly, what does that cost us over and above the basic workload of tendering, contract management, supplier relationship management, um, market analyses, stakeholder uh and supplier communications, and so on and so forth. So it's an extra um very important piece of work that requires slightly different skill sets to that which we normally attribute to procurement and supply chain. And segregating that out and attributing return on investment for that is quite an important thing to, you know, bit of work to do in order to put the focus light on and say, yes, it must be done. Why must it be done? And why, what what what does it reveal? What does it give us?

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Um, fourth one on the agenda was risk reduction. So um I often get this conversation at board level that says, look, we don't want to understand the rear view mirror of what's happened, albeit that's important. Um so who are our key suppliers? Um, what how did they perform? Um, how much are they at risk? What's their solvency status? You know, have we got the right partners? What about what are we doing about critical suppliers? Um, are we finding alternatives? And so alternative sources of supply, but actually reducing the risk within the supply chains and making sure we have adequate uh sources for demand for the foreseeable future and being able to um with agility move into a different direction if need be. And there's a lot of uh bounce back from the pandemic of are we ready? Are we proactive? So Morza saying, hang on a minute, I want the the front view, forward-looking, proactive, predictive view of each of the top 20, for example, and the critical suppliers. Um, and and more importantly, when it comes to partnering and collaboration and so on with a with a vital few, um, they're as important to us as what our staff are, our employees, how are we treating them?

unknown 18:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Are we evaluating their risks equally as they we would ours internally? So it's actually looking at resource pools, whether they be external or internal, as almost one and the same.

SPEAKER_04 18:42

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And that's a that's a different view, you know. That and that's that's a view where, you know, if you if you if you do look at pre-COVID, you know, risk and resilience wasn't high up on the agenda. And of course, you know, it's you know, lockdown um and the instability of supply chains has suddenly brought that onto the um onto the agenda. Um and I don't know what's your what's your thoughts there of of procurement functions just got used to managing the instability and the inflation, or do we have to do we have to do more now?

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Well, I think it's settling um colleagues down that we've you know that we've got everything under control, that there's more to do, but the basics and the adaptability and the agility and the responsiveness is there. So um we can uh demonstrate our three-point plan should X, Y, or Z kick into place. And we've got you know two years of experience now under our belts to do that. The fifth one actually is innovation and drive-through. So, how are we going to help the business innovate, uh differentiate itself within the marketplace, and get that competitive advantage? So they're the five. Yeah, and they all actually are codependent and they intermesh. But from my point of view, um, how are we going to um avoid cost, um, optimize the cost that we have? And there are great examples of organizations still cost reducing, even though they are developed in their procurement organizations, through inflationary periods. So um we can't necessarily rely on the old um, you know, uh chestnut of cost reduction to get us through as the tagline or the strap line of what procurement does anymore.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

It is how do we uh optimize costs, how do we optimize value, how do we drive through innovation with um supply chains, how do we bring the answers in advance to our colleagues, to our stakeholders, to the board, and be more proactive in terms of the next um you know, uh opportunity that's there within um automation or uh robotics or whatever it may be. But you know, markets are changing, subsectors are changing. It's actually being almost like um a fairly elite financial analyst at the table, predicting from a supply market point of view and a supplier point of view, which ones to bet on and why.

SPEAKER_04 21:20

Absolutely. So yeah, that's a really interesting one. I because I I I love this subject, which is the which is around that, you know, what's the type of person that you need in your in your procurement function that can that can do that? You know, because we're we're talking about a big difference between a let's say a tactical buyer who's you know f focused on negotiation, which is maybe you know, looking back where lots of the cost reduction came from in the in the past, to to someone who's you know f has got that strategic capability to to do exactly as you've just talked about there, to spot the trend, to To understand supplier capability and innovation in a supply market and then bring that forward and bring it into the corporate radar?

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Yeah, I you know, for me, I I I've seen, you know, having had 30 plus years in in the field, um I've seen this trend of moving away from commodity-specific, very um uh narrow vertical experts to almost, if you like, athletes who, you know, who can actually project manage, they can collaborate, they can manage conflict, they can be the bridge and the advocate between the supply and stakeholders. They have to be predictors, they have to be analysts, um, they have to be uh far ahead of the technologies. There are a lot of arguments for we should have a smaller number of those types of individuals as we automate and become more comfortable with um artificial intelligence and optimize our systems. We should have strategically placed individuals across the business, within the business, yeah, to advise to counsel to be there as almost like a procurement concierge.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

You know, um with a great backup system that allows the right information at the right time, with the right clarity and with the right rationale for why things are the way they are right now from a category management perspective and a category strategy perspective, and how they could change.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

So we're talking, um, it's almost like a parity or a peer equivalent that we're moving into now, where we've got someone who has the ability to be multilingual in the business sense of speaking with their finance partners, their technical partners, their IT partners, um, and of course the suppliers as well, and bringing that pool of high-intensity resource together for something far greater than they alone could manage themselves.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

And that skill is something that we're trying to build on and grow because what once used to be the cost-reducing negotiator has now moved into something far more elite.

SPEAKER_04 24:16

Yes, yes. Well, you're talking about uh you know high impact, you know, internal consultants, effectively. You know, the they're able to facilitate, they're able to operate at a at a high level, as you say, almost almost at board level, um, and have those meaningful discussions around functional strategy, business requirements, and and translate that into into into the impact into impact. Um but so here's a here's a here's an interesting question. How do you get to that? You know, where there's always this discussion around, you know, you've you've led some big procurement transformations, so I'm kind of interested in how how it how you can really do it. But you know, can you can you take a function forward from from that operational tactical position to a far more strategic capability? Because you've still got business as usual to do whilst you're you're making that change.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Uh and the answer is yes, it's not easy.

SPEAKER_04 25:13

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

But it is it is absolutely achievable. And I I would start with the fundamental point of sponsorship.

SPEAKER_03 25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Because any CPO is going to face a change challenge and an ongoing change challenge as well. Yeah. Um the average change cycle for a procurement function is about seven years.

SPEAKER_03 25:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

If you're starting from um, you know, a very low base and then moving to you know high performing, integrated uh functions within the business. So um it's it's it's a you know, it's a long journey.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

It is.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

And you know, the operational and tactical roles are necessary, um, they're valued, and um they're the bread and butter and the underpinning foundation of any procurement organization. They're needed. Um, and it's it is absolutely okay to identify those individuals, give them accolade, because they don't necessarily want to be involved in the change. And actually segregating out those that wish to go on a change journey and those who wish to do business as usual, and almost separate out those two types of skills, yeah, and find some sort of a boundary where they overlap is the skill set for the CPO. But without sponsorship to start off with and getting board buy-in, um, I'm afraid a change journey is almost impossible.

SPEAKER_04 26:43

Absolutely, absolutely. And and from your experience, how you know, how how have you gone about getting that board sponsorship?

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Well, it starts off um interestingly at the recruitment stage of the CPO physician. Um and you know, I've I've um I've made some mistakes along the way in terms of my selections in the past, and I've made some really good choices as well. And it's actually trying, it's almost like trying something on precise and saying, well, how does this fit? Are my uh goals and my personal objectives aligned with this company's need and um thirst for change? I myself am a change agent, I'm not interested in a business as usual organization. I want to take on those um ugly, gnarly challenges.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

You love a challenge.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

You know, I love a challenge and move them forward. So um it's testing out right at the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Is the CEO on board? Uh is the CEFO on board?

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Um how do your um other peer colleagues feel about procurement as a function? And and and kind of evaluating the readiness for change in an organization and the appetite for it. Um, if you've got that, then you're halfway there. Um, the next stage is being able to gather very, very quickly, less than 90 days, what is the situational analysis, taking the problem to them, not hiding behind it and not promising the world and saying, yes, you can have it all, you can have the change program, you can have the business as usual, everything's gonna be hunky-dory, and you're gonna get your cost reduction at the end of the year.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Um, that is a recipe for disaster, in my opinion, and it can lead to all sorts of issues, not just for yourself as a leader, but for staff who are at the end of that really interesting thing.

SPEAKER_04 28:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

You have to deal with that and detangle it.

SPEAKER_04 28:44

Absolutely, yeah. Because at the end of the day, they're they're they're at the coal face, and that and that's that's that's the challenge. Um, and it's interesting to be, you know, what you're saying there is, you know, being very realistic about where the function is now, where the organization is right now, and and of course having that that vision and that mission, but you know, then being realistic and pragmatic about what's actually required on that journey.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Yeah, um, other things that have worked for me in the past is actually taking um executive teams to procurement departments that are working at full throttle, that are the best of the best, that are mature, or getting a CPO to come to from another organization to the board meeting and presenting what good looks like.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

Yes, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

And other ways of doing it are simply just being very candid about the problem statement, being very simple in your delivery of what the solutions can be, and being very clear what the return on investment and the costs are going to be.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

And sadly, having the conversation with yourself in the small hours of the morning that says which people in my department have the skills for change, which have the skills for business as usual, yeah, who will survive the change journey and who won't.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely key. Yeah. I mean, we you know, it is being honest and realistic about that that challenge because everyone isn't going to change.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

No, and you know, um, being frank with yourself and the board is an important stage, but also being frank with the team that you are going to go through a change. It is going to be difficult, it is going to be scary, it is going to be challenging.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Um, but not asking them to continually do business as usual as well as change, that is the most draining and demotivating thing a leader can do ultimately. For short spans, it's fine, but for longer spans, um you end up with a battle-weary team who resent you.

SPEAKER_04 30:56

Yeah, yeah. And that's not sustainable, is it? It's no, it's not. And going back to your point about the the length of that that change journey, you know, it's not a, you know, there can sometimes be an expectation that that you can you can go from operational to strategic in in 18 months, two years, but it, you know, it it's a it's a long journey, isn't it, to get to to excellence. So you've got to have that sustainability and and the people go on that journey.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

I I think you know, being realistic with oneself, because uh for me, I I've got a large appetite for change and I love it. And it doesn't scare me. And um, you know, I'm quite innovative and I've got that ability to work through adversity and deal with ambiguity. But that's my skill set, it's not everyone's.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Getting quick wins, showing the team what they can do and be part of it and celebrating that success, and then drip feeding those wins into the board is absolutely vital.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

That will give more confidence, it will give more feedback, and it certainly will serve you well a budgeting round the following year.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

So don't overpromise, don't underpromise. And it's a skill to be able to balance out what the art of the possible is, and then deliver on it, particularly if your systems aren't up to scratch and your integration within the business and your sponsorship within the business is poor. So I think there's nothing more refreshing than a chief exec and an executive team looking to procurement and saying, look, come with us, yeah, with the business, for the business, invite you in to the party, and get you to work on the problems together and report the solutions and the results together.

SPEAKER_04 32:46

Yeah, absolutely. We I I I love the idea of the of the flywheel analogy where you know you you try not to boil the ocean, take take something, make a success of it, make that visible, and earn the right to then go and do it again, go a little bit deeper the next time. Um keep putting up those wins because that's what will drive the the positive change.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Yeah, another um tactic of mine um that I've used quite regularly, um, that's been quite successful actually is having a capacity analysis to hand. So knowing what your team is capable of in terms of operational, tactical, and strategic roles.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Uh looking at the tasks at hand that the business is asking you and creating what you can do versus what the business is asking you to do.

SPEAKER_03 33:37

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

And um on that basis, you know, you can have a really meaningful conversation to say, look, if your shopping list is 20 items, Mr. You know, finance officer or Miss Finance Officer, yeah, I've only I can only cover off it with the capacity load that I have.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Um uh what would you like to do? How would you like to prioritize? Now, if you want to do all the 20 items, it's gonna cost you X. Yeah. And the return on investment is Y. And, you know, we can make sure it's delivered on time and full. So having that to hand and having that as a almost like a uh, you know, uh a compelling yet encouraging conversation with them to say, look, it is possible. We're not saying it can't be done, but with what I have, this is what I can do meaningfully for you.

SPEAKER_04 34:28

Yeah, yeah, you're able to talk about the the realistic constraints. Um and I I guess that develops on into into almost a dashboard of you know, kind of having that ability to to discuss and prioritize with the board what what should be worked on first.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Yeah, and uh, you know, moving that into the projects that you know that you have on the wheel. So understanding what your capacity is in terms of man hours, uh, what um the actual base load of work is and what the project work is. And then pulling that into one analysis and saying, look, you know, uh, I've got X man hours capability, um, and we're gonna cut off at, you know, uh project 11.

SPEAKER_03 35:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

And projects 12 through 20 are lost opportunities.

SPEAKER_03 35:16

Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

And now do you want to do do you want to do that or or not? Uh or do you want to fund it through additional resourcing, whether that be temporary or permanent? Um, and by the way, there's a change program running in parallel with that too.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

And this is how much um that's gonna require in terms of manpower and uh funding.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

So um it's being very precise on what your business as usual is gonna be able to deliver, what your um additional projects and cost reduction activities are gonna be able to deliver, and any change programs over and above that. Yeah from a capacity and a return on investment point of view.

SPEAKER_04 35:51

Yes, yeah, great. And yeah, love, love that. We're not promising the world, we've been quite clear as to what's achievable, and you can then put the time frame to that. Um just to just to go a little bit deeper into that, because there's a really interesting, I guess, um, as a CPO, you've got options now because we we've got so much automation and digitization available to us. And almost touching back to one of your your earlier points, which was uh around, you know, can can we effectively use automation to do some of the more processed tasks and therefore have the chance to do to use those strategic athletes and um uh you know collaborative internal consultants to make the big impact. So how how do you see that sort of play of of team versus automation and digital processes?

SPEAKER_00 36:44

You know, I'm all for it.

SPEAKER_04 36:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

I think the more we can um automate the repetitive grinding, you know, demotivating tasks, the better for us as a function. And but is reducing headcount the same as reducing the cost? So it might be that you automate, you get the rewards of that, and you've got excess staff. Now do you redeploy or do you reduce and cut the headcount? Um or do you say to the board, that which I've saved in headcount, I wish to now reinvest in more um athletes or nearly team to actually do more for you rather than less? So there there seems to be this um assumption that why don't we just cut head head count across the board and it'll all be fine? Why would you cut uh an engine uh of cost reduction, cost improvement, innovation and collaboration and risk management? Why would you cut that down when you can actually have more?

SPEAKER_03 38:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Um, and that's really my argument. Sometimes there is a clear argument for, and sometimes there is against, and you just have to accept what that is. But for me, I often go in with, well, I've been asked to reduce headcount, but is that really the question?

SPEAKER_04 38:16

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that can that can be a I guess a short-term CFO outlook of looking at the the cost of the procurement function rather than going back to the value of that's delivered. Um and it can come back to that CPO challenge again of of painting the vision of you know what what does good look like? Um and you know, I love your point about taking a board to show them a uh an excellent function because sometimes you just you just don't know. A board doesn't know what what you know really what value a good procurement function can bring.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

I I I think sharing procurement functions of of supplier organizations is really quite interesting as well. Yeah. And having a collaboration forum where you know a board comes along to the CPOs of all of the top 20 suppliers.

SPEAKER_03 39:11

Yep, that's an interesting concept.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

I mean, that that is really interesting, you know. And um, talking about the business challenges and the market challenges as a round table, that's got to be something that is really worth value. But it's almost a CPO should have and be able to have, and you know, I know it's not always easy, those vital statistics at their fingertips to say, what have I got? What capacity do I have? What can I achieve? What can't I achieve? What's my return? What can I do for you? What's going wrong at the moment? How can we move forward? And having um statistics available now, if you've got the automated systems, they're gonna give you real-time reports that can show um a dashboard that can actually help you educate your stakeholders. If you don't, it's um we all we've all been there with the spreadsheets. I'm not gonna go into that, but it's well worth the midnight oil to get to those points where you can seamlessly talk about your challenges and your issues, plus what you can do if only you were allowed to, if the games were opened. And so for me, um, I welcome automation, I welcome AI. I I picked up a really interesting uh little uh tidbit the other day. Chat GPT's IQ is 155. Einstein's IQ was 160.

SPEAKER_03 40:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

So that's the current version of Chat GPT. Now, the rate of automation and AI at the moment, we are going to have the pleasure of seeing an absolute boom over the next five years, you know, um, to a point where it will be expected that uh staff will be able to keep up with all of the trends that AI automation um can provide us with, but interpret that as well.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

And decode it and simplify it and influence with it.

SPEAKER_03 41:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

So I think it's a fabulous opportunity to create strategic influences in the business and possibly get extra resources or extra funding for those individuals who could do more innovation as a cost reduction, as a result of cost reduction from the overhead uh reduction that you've had previously due to automation.

SPEAKER_04 41:39

Yeah, absolutely. We we're gonna we're going to experience an incredible time of change because you know AI, machine learning will put this information at our fingertips. Um but of course it then comes back to the you know the interpretation of that and the ability to synthesize that information and make an impact in the in the business. Comes back to those those you know, the those high-performing commercial um individuals who can who can do that. Um if we've automated the the the you know, we're providing them with incredible tools, but we still need those people to to to make the impact.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Yes. And and you know, it's almost like any one point in time, your team should be able to articulate um its goals and objectives against the business's goals and objectives and be able to cite the value add that's happening real time.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

You know, and and celebrate it and for stakeholders to be able to celebrate with them because they know they've been involved in that. So I'm moving towards this concept of how do we get um procurements involved in the business and connected with the business and celebrated and recognized as as a joint effort.

SPEAKER_04 42:55

Yeah. Well, you know, we've always we've always gone back to that that essential need for stakeholder engagement. You know, good procurement comes from engaging with with the stakeholders, and it is, you know, it it's it's collaboration that is is key to drive that. You know, you can be great, you can be great at buying, but that's very different from from actually you know being being able to bring a category strategy together or to you know deliver a real business requirements.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

I've I've watched this painful and prohibitive process move to something that is powerful, proactive, and predictive.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

And that's really where we want to be. We don't want to be seen as the um you know the purchase order police. And oftentimes we are. Um in some organizations, there's still that stigma. And um, you know, that's for the CPOs of the future to address and stand tall on and demonstrate what good looks like. So it it's really all there for the taking, particularly if you've got a bit a good uh business uh management system or An adequate uh optimized P2P system because the two are different now, you know, um, and understanding um how you can move forward um with your stakeholders and your suppliers, and uh if you like piercing the veil between the supplier and the stakeholder and getting automated collaborative processes underway and bring very, very, very simple but effective collaborative mechanisms together and get new product to market quickly, which is really what it's all about.

SPEAKER_04 44:32

Yeah, yeah. I was going to ask you about that. That's just going back to one of the one of the five points you mentioned at the beginning about you know being able to link essentially linking that corporate strategy to innovation. You know, we so how how to bring in the innovation from from suppliers and the supply market into the into the organization. Um and you talked a little bit about that, about kind of that that you know that collaboration and that connectivity.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Yeah, um sadly, the suppliers do find and continue to find it difficult to actually access a business.

SPEAKER_03 45:09

Yes. Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

From the simple things of um, can I just please speak to someone who is a decision maker through to uh when are the next um bids coming out? To um, I've got some great ideas, who will hear me on it? To um uh uh, you know, where are we um in terms of awareness on your supplier relationship management system? Are we a preferred supplier and why? Yes, uh, why not? Um uh down to contract management, simple contract management. So, how do we get a supplier to be innovative? How do we optimize what they've got to offer? Well, we make time to categorize them, we make time to connect them into cross-functional teams, and we continually communicate and we bring the ideas to the table and we launch new products from that and innovations from that, and we connect our return on investment and our benefits analysis to it. So it's it's uh supply relationship management is a is a uh uh you know a real passion of mine, and I think that's where it's at going forward, particularly for the more advanced and mature organizations. That's where they've got to spend the majority of their time now. Yeah, is once they've settled their supply base down, they've categorized it, they've segmented it, and so on. Then it's about you know bringing it that to life, not just giving it lip service and saying, Oh, you're a preferred supplier. It's having real-time information about how they're performing, understanding their businesses better than what they do themselves, because oftentimes that's in reverse. Yeah. Suppliers know more about you than you do about them. Yeah, um, treating them as external resources, yes, um, and and as part of the resource pool, and keeping them to task about you know the latest developments and what they can do. Plus you creating a bridge into the executive where there is a space on the agenda once a quarter for innovation, particularly with the speed of automation and development that there is right now. You know, uh, we need to start keeping up. So that's the way forward. Absolutely. And getting um stakeholders, particularly at exec level, sponsored into owning certain supplier relationships from the top down. So when it gets into contract management, understanding what's happening with the contracts, how they're performing, and so on. But there's far more to supply relationships than that.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

It's about predicting where they'll be, how they're going to take us with them, and how we get preferential treatment from them as a result of being a dedicated customer.

SPEAKER_04 47:44

Brilliant. You've just you've just given the case for supply relationship management in a in a nutshell. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Something that I could go on about for a long time. And believe me, I've had painful experiences about presenting dashboards to executive teams.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

What do you mean? Why is this red? Why is this green? What does that mean? What's that? Um having thousands of contracts per supplier, key supplier, and trying to aggregate up to a simple set of KPIs and a RAG status and an explanation.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

And then pinning that accountability to one of the executive team members.

SPEAKER_04 48:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

That's interesting.

unknown 48:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:22

And it and it's interesting, isn't it, how that's developed where you know, if you if you look back to an immature organization where procurement is not involved in the relationship between the supplier and the business, and there's been a push to involve procurement. And then you know, it looks like it's just got in the way and prevented the the you know been a barrier in that interface. Um, and now, you know, we've we've got to get past that and and and focus on those key suppliers, those partners, and and and maximise the value that that they can bring. So it's a it's it's another change that that needs to happen.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

Yeah, and also not forgetting the critical suppliers as well. Oh boy, have I had my ears burnt with that one.

SPEAKER_04 49:07

There's some painful, painful lessons for everyone. And you know, and what you're talking about there is changing procurement's focus. You know, there's it can be sometimes it can be very narrow, it can be just about the buying, you know, and then it's you know, we've put a contract in place, we forget about it. But actually it's it's long term, it it's managing a it's managing a supply chain, it's managing whole life costs, the whole life life cycle of a of a product. Um so again, it's you know, as procurement becomes more mature, we've got to widen our widen our perspective.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Yeah, and you know, um the the leaders of the future and the the teams of the future are those who um actually get um are process-oriented and they can think in terms of um chunking the processes down and and looking at the value chain and re-engineering that with suppliers and with the stakeholders and actually uh you know optimizing efficiencies along the way and really uh getting into longer-term partnerships if that's if that's required as a result of that. So the suppliers can, but also the business can too. And being very open and honest with uh those suppliers that generally will always be in the what I classify as the leverage category or the the repetitive bidding category, simply because they're commoditized and that is the competitive nature of the market. Um and we are going to auto-bid and we are gonna maximize value. Um and and being very honest and open about that. And if they do want to get into a strategic relationship with us, then they need to come to us with a reason why.

SPEAKER_03 50:44

Yes, yep.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

Um and uh and having uh you know uh the ability to listen to that. But when you get into strategic suppliers, it's it's almost um they have to earn the right to be there and continue to be there, yeah. And and then you know, you're getting to a point where you're coming up to um potentially rebidding and the cost of change. And this is this is uh one of the the the biggest nightmares for me is okay, so what's it gonna cost to change then? What is the what is the pain barrier? You know, a lot of businesses they don't want to change because they get comfortable, they become embedded, the relationships become very um connected. This is this is human behavior, it's quite normal. How do you um convince an organization, not just from a price point perspective, but you know, um a value add and innovation and learning all over again within your provider? How do you do that? Um and the the backlash and the resistance is interesting, you know, from uh we can't possibly do that to what's the cost? Um, how long will it take? What will we do? Um and being proactive about that and having teams ready um with that information way in advance of the tendering mechanism to help the discussion.

unknown 52:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:09

That's where you get for you fall short with the supplier relationships because they lull you into a false sense of security, along with every everything else that's on the wheel from normal operational procurement right through to getting ready for budgets, but um, you know, being ready with all of that detailed morass of information and having the systems to support you and do that.

SPEAKER_04 52:30

Yes, yeah, yeah. In in what is a uh you know a very, very business strategic decision. You know, you you know, corporates will have a handful of you know strategic suppliers, critical suppliers, well, or what they might even consider partners. Um, and you know, very few organizations think in that way. You know, they they still consider them to be still down in that leverage box. And um, or as you say, they're they're in a they're in a almost a panic situation of going, well, we can't change because we haven't got any alternatives. We've not thought it through.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

We've not thought that through.

SPEAKER_04 53:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

So, you know, uh the simple four box matrix really does the trick. You know, which ones do you outsource the tail of suppliers, which ones do you keep close to, uh, but keep that competitive tension going and the control and balance of power between buyer and supplier? Which ones um are critical and are going to bring business in if you don't watch it? And which ones you just competitive come uh you know continually tender and and leave as a consequence of the market.

SPEAKER_04 53:35

Very good. Excellent. Um, let's just talk about one last thing, Kathy, if that's okay. So I wanted to just bring that that discussion, which is fantastic, going down into each of those five areas, but just talking about the the the leadership aspect of the CPO, because that's the kind of blue that keeps it all together, all of those pieces that are moving, and the the CPO, it's quite a role there. So I mean, yeah, I mean, how how do you see that? The role, what's the role of the CPO to deliver all of those things?

SPEAKER_00 54:10

You know, um, I can divide this into technical skills and emotional intelligence and the more people management skills. Yeah, and I I don't think uh a CPO would be in the position if they didn't have good technical gravitas. Yeah, I mean that's what that's right, yeah. And they've managed large-scale transformation, they understand, you know, uh the whole agenda, and I'm sure that's easily um traced and tracked. But going forward, particularly in the uncertainty of today's environment and the challenges that employees are now bringing to the table, and the awareness that we're getting as leaders around disabilities, diversity and inclusion, mental health issues, uh, burnout syndrome, you know, uh, the need for just, you know, some time to retrench and to think and take time out to digest the strategic agenda as well as the day-to-day agenda. So oftentimes you'll find leaders with lots of ability to think very laterally and very wide, and then drill down into lots of detail and very narrow. So uh they're constantly moving between detail and uh broader perspectives. Um, but it's being able to translate what the business needs into what it means for individuals at the call face, as you put it, yes, and on the ground, and being able to, you know, stop by uh someone's desk and say, What's your role in all of this? Did you really get it? You know, did that mission statement make sense to you? Did it sound like obliged look? How are you doing? How are you feeling? Um is it too much taking the feedbacks, but on the uh more individual person, uh personal skill sets, I think it's about authenticity. Yep, ultimately just being real and sharing what the challenges are that you're facing, and sharing that with the team. So by actually um agreeing with them that it's tough, agreeing with them it's been a tough year and there's more to come. Um and getting their feedback about what can and can't be done, and when to see now, and when to change operational and day-to-day activities from change activities. A leader has to listen, um, be taking feedback constantly, be open to challenge, and literally just be willing to share. Um they call it productive vulnerability, but for me, it's just being authentic, being open and uh not sharing your woes and burdening your team, but you know, um trying to get a sense of what they understand your role is and what you're trying to achieve and how they've interpreted their role at the same time and their tasks.

SPEAKER_04 57:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:24

Um, if you're doing that, you're doing well.

SPEAKER_04 57:27

Yeah, great, great. You know, that's that's great. That's a a real insight into that that leading to the.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

What do you think, Richard? I mean, have you seen what what what do you think the leaders are are doing now?

SPEAKER_04 57:39

It's it, you know, what what are we seeing the the successful ones out there? They're they're able to work at all levels within the in the organization. So they were able to sit down with the the chief exec and and talk strategy. They're able to walk into the the CFO's office and um and have an understanding of the numbers and the and the drivers behind those numbers. Um they're able to walk onto the shop floor and and have a discussion about a particular part or a or a or a supplier service issue. Um and then as you say, you you you've then got to have that um yeah, that emotional connectivity with with every with every person in your team. Um you know, it's it's quite a mix that's needed for for a CPO.

SPEAKER_00 58:31

It it is, and uh it's more emphasis on the people, how they're feeling, the mood.

SPEAKER_03 58:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

Um, and uh, you know, it it's really um feedback, being kind, yeah, uh, you know, congratulating, celebrating, uh, understanding issues, being transparent about that. Uh low on ego, high on curiosity.

SPEAKER_04 58:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:58

And of course I think is a good one. Yeah. And fighting for your team, you know, um, showing that you're not gonna, you know, go down without a fight in terms of um having the difficult conversations with your peers.

SPEAKER_02 59:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

Um, not necessarily automatically saying, okay, it's a 25% headcount reduction, and we're gonna take it.

SPEAKER_02 59:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:20

Um, and then explaining to the team why we need to work harder for the like next two months because we want to get the story right.

SPEAKER_02 59:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:28

And getting them involved in that story, but also giving them some time for downtime, one one day a month reflection.

SPEAKER_04 59:35

Absolutely. And this, you know, of course, this is in the this is in the context of um, you know, dealing with you know supply chain issues, you know, sub supplier insolvencies, um, you know, cost, you know, huge cost challenge, you know, rampant inflation. I know it's coming down, inflation's still a positive. Um, and of course, working conditions, you know, where everyone has been required to work from home, work hybrid, they're no longer able to perhaps fully, you know, fully share, share the challenges with with their with their team members because they're they're they're they're working at in their home offices.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:11

Yeah, I think, you know, um there's for too long there's been do more with less. Yeah. And it just seems to be, okay, we'll do more with less.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

There it there's the law of diminishing returns after a while. And, you know, um for me, it's just about being able to say where you draw the line as a leader and what you're prepared to take as a budget and have those discussions at the end of the day. But also, you know, having a a real appetite um for change, and and oftentimes CPOs walk around with a lot of strategy in their head and they get it. So they have access to all the data, they understand, hopefully, the whole gambit of the business and what the business is trying to achieve, as well as procurement. And that's hardwired into their brain and they walk and talk and eat it every day. But not everybody in the procurement team understands that or gets that.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:08

And oftentimes it's having a management team around you that can decode what you're thinking and what you're experiencing and communicating that down to them and saying, look, you know, this isn't some strange, you know, automaton in the background, you know, yeah, um, that is unapproachable. This this is, you know, it is this is really what the the strategy is about for this particular category of spend, and this is what it means. And having um individuals around you at your management team that can act as almost like a transformer.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:44

So I I I it's almost akin to being operating at 500 volts because you've got access to all the information, then you need to transform down to 240 volts. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:53

So having a leadership team around you that supports you in that and can help you with that, that's a must do.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:00

Yeah. That's that. Yeah, yeah. That's a great picture to paint of what's of what's required. Because that is, you know, that that is what's required to make that to make those big changes, to, you know, to take a procurement function on on that on that journey.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

Uh and each and every person will have a different experience of change. They have the different appetites for change, um, they have different fear factors around change. Yeah. And uh, you know, I think being very clear and holding hand, holding their hands metaphorically and giving them the tools to go through change with is is absolutely vital, you know. Um particular, I mean simple changes like we've got a new software, we've got a new system. We're gonna allow you a certain amount of time to actually go and train on that system and help you train your stakeholders on that system. This is basic stuff, but oftentimes it just gets lost in translation.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:59

Right through to um, you know, learning the latest techniques in um AI and getting out there and spending time with their suppliers and with their stakeholders about the future.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

Oftentimes you get, you know, teams that are too down in the weeds and too bogged down with the uh operational tasks and the paperwork, even though it might be automated. There's subsequent paperwork or spreadsheets that need to be done, or you know, interpretations that need to happen, and they're not given enough time to do that. And that's where the burnout comes from and the loss of appetite for the role.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:31

Yeah, yeah. And that and that comes back to the the CPO's role to to manage that, to allow those spaces for for that to happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:40

And and oftentimes you can be blindsided. I yeah, I've been there when you know you get you think you've cascaded the objectives and the goals down into the team. You think they've got it. Yeah, you think they're okay with it until you actually test it, or um, you know, rumblings come back from in in a different uh way and shape and form.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:03

Yeah, yeah, that's it. And and you see that uh, you know, some of the best leaders are you know, they're you know, one of their core skills is communication and they they communicate and over-communicate because it's so it's so key, you know, to get the fundamentals right.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:21

And oftentimes when change requires external resources to come in, um, then you've got a different dynamic. So you've got a team within a team within a team.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:32

You know, and people often get stoked crazy around that as well because um, who are these new members? What are they doing here? How are they gonna affect how's it gonna affect my role? Um, how am I gonna get on with my day job? I want to be doing that role because it seems more sexier to do that. Uh, why can't I be backfilled? And I can get to do the the more strategic change roles. So you've got constantly this need to understand and critique and profile your skill sets in people and constantly understand what their appetite is for growth and uh their promotional prospects and you know uh how you're gonna actually sustain an organization. Um, should your attrition move to higher than the average of 13%? Yeah. Um, you know, if I was at 13%, I'd be feeling a bit twitchy.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:18

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

It's nice to get below 10 if you can.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:21

Yeah, great, great.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:23

But if you start to see that notch up, it's often an indicator that people just don't feel comfortable with.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:27

Not right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that could be that you're just pushing a little bit too hard, um, or it's not quite clear what where where you're going, what the what the end the end goal is.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:38

You know what, Richard, oftentimes, you know, there's no um perfect guideline to this. When is enough enough? How far do I press? How far do I push? And why? Particularly if the CPO has been pushed and pressurized by the executive team. And rightly so.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:52

You know. How how um calm can a a CPO be and how vulnerable can they be, and how open can they be? With all of these tensions and pressures, and only release what's appropriate to help calm individuals down and get them through the change. That's often the most difficult thing to do of all. You know? Um and that's certainly been my personal challenge.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:18

Um, just because I can feel comfortable on doing 12 hours a day doesn't mean to say everybody else does.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:22

Yes, yes, great. Kath, thank you. That is incredibly insightful into that that leadership role. Because it it does come down to that, you know, it it's a tough job. The C CPO is a tough job. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:38

It's a tough gig. It really is a tough gig because you have to be um, you know, you have to be uh jack of all trades and master of none. Uh you have to be broad as well as deep in terms of you have to be personable, have great communication skills, uh be sensitive, empathetic, the ability to inspire and to motivate, um, to take accountability, to be um respected, not necessarily liked, because not everybody can like you, but they can respect what you're doing and how you're doing it and why.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:14

And giving them, giving the team access to stakeholders and access to the executive, being um given the accolades for the work that they are doing, because you are leading a team. Without the team, you are nothing.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:30

And so it is really them at the end of the day that that makes the the real difference. And you know, to be proud of them, it's almost like a family at the end of the day, one should aspire to. Yeah. But not too much infighting.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:44

Yeah. Oh, brilliant. Great. Okay, that that's fantastic. I'm going to ask you a few quick fire questions just to finish up, which is what we do with with all the guests on the show. So um, yeah, very uh, you know, everyone gets asked this, but how how did you get into procurement?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:59

I started off like as a research chemist, and then I decided I wanted to be close to more closer to the commercial side of um a business. So I took up a um a procurement role.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:12

Yeah. Did you know what it was when you when you took the job?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:15

Well, I I did because I I took on almost a bridging role between research and procurement. So I became almost the interpretation art for research. Um, and it was in a chemicals um organization that I did that. And then I got into electronics again as an operational role, but I wasn't satisfied with this concept of just in time and strategic relationship management. Uh it didn't do what it said on the tin, even though, you know, at the time it was leading edge, it wasn't strategic enough for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:44

And I jumped into uh consulting and stayed in consulting for 14 years.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:50

And became a managing partner. Um, and the discipline was uh procurement and supply chain.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:56

And uh um I worked across public and private sector nationally and internationally, yeah, making uh major change programs and business transformation, cost improvement, organization redesign, governance, all that good stuff. And um specialized in defense as well, which was was an interesting time.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:17

And decided I wanted to uh experience life on the other side of accountability. So took on an executive role, uh a couple of CPO roles, and an on-executive role for the Ministry of Defence and DENS. And now what I'm doing is I'm actually um a board advisor, I'm an on-executive director, I do actually um fractional interim, so I'll perhaps offset um C-suite uh members one or two days a week in terms of strategy if they're over overburdened with um uh operational roles. I'll might take some of their operational tasks away from. I do do a procurement interim as well, and I do think it's it was an interesting choice to begin in management consulting and bring all those skills over into an executive role and experience. Um, being a chief procurement officer um in the cut and thrust of public sector life, which was challenging. They said it couldn't be done, uh, taking a team into um a world-class status, which I was able to do with the team, yeah, uh, which was a very proud time for me at the Royal Mail. And then having the the benefit and and you know the joy of advising boards and giving them an insight from um my experience and obviously seeing it from both sides of the fence. So I've been on the other side of the CPO uh and I understand the challenges and I'm able to give them um some advice and counsel. Um I also do volunteering work and I've managed the art of work-life balance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:53

So I uh I volunteer in palliative care.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:58

And I'm also uh a freeman of the worshipable company of educators in London. So I get involved in uh advancements in education, yes, um, particularly about leaders of the future and what what that means and how we educate and uh develop our children.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:17

Um and I'm also an advisory advisory board member for um Breaking Barriers Innovations, uh, which looks at socioeconomic issues in the UK around social housing, um, health and um infrastructure. Yeah. So um I've got a blend now, which is it is a far better place to be. Um and you know, it's putting uh to the test 30 years of of experience.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:44

Yeah, that's good. Um so with all of that in mind, so what would you recommend to somebody who's who's developing their career in in procurement?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:54

Apart from taking a deep breath.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:59

First one would be um be curious, you know. Yeah, learn to um really um enhance your people's skills. So if you enjoy collaborating with people, being curious, yeah, looking into innovation, if you like data, if you don't mind confrontation, yeah, if you're good at selling, and um if you're good at analytics, yeah, and you've got a process orientation, um, and you want to be able to access all parts of a business, procurement, uh the future of procurement is is for you. Um so what would I advise? Um I'd say that um it's well worth the effort once you once you actually embed yourself and establish yourself as an advocate. Um but um sometimes you have to learn to deal with the knockbacks on a day-to-day basis and uh you know keep pushing on that closed door.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:06

Because it will open if you've got the right sponsorship and the right approach with the right data, you will open doors. Um, it can be such um a rich experience in terms of travel, in terms of the type of people that you meet, in terms of how you can see your business grow and your impact on it. Um you can actually get involved in all sorts of issues outside of work that relate to procurement and bring that back into the for, you know, like volunteering, for example. Um, you might get involved in um sustainability outside of work and bring that back into the workplace. Yeah. Um, it's a real sociable network of great people who have a sense of humor, yeah, who know how to party hard and work hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:54

And um I think there's just some really profoundly um capable individuals out there who would benefit from a stint in procurement.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:06

If they don't want to stay in it long term, fine, but just to understand what purchase to pay and the cycles in that really are and how they can make a difference to a business in terms of its property.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:16

Just how important it is to a to a business.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:19

Yeah, that's great. I mean, I I'm I'm biased, but that was a pretty good sales pitch for the profession.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:26

You know, I I I rolled into it by accident, really. For me, I I just found that commercial activities, negotiating, yes, um, deep complex contracts, preempting requirements, managing and envisaging the future, and then driving it through. There's nothing more uh you know encouraging than that for me. This is what I live for, and watching two sides of um the argument come together in unison and conflict um being resolved. That is what I enjoy as well. Interpreting suppliers' needs and being their advocate and um actually getting a board to understand what um what their needs are because ultimately CPOs can actually decode for a business when it's pretty.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:17

Yeah. Great.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:19

Uh be their go-to point. So for me, I think it's a very worthwhile profession. I think it's uh it's a fabulous education process. You get dipped into all sorts of things and aspects of businesses that you wouldn't necessarily think about. Um, and it g it's a really good springboard into alternative, broader horizons in business. So mergers and acquisitions is what I've got involved in, startups and so on, just simply um through the springboard of procurement.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:47

Yeah, great, great, brilliant. Um, and Kath, um so who should be our next podcast guest? And why? There's the question.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:57

I I thought about one and I had to come up with four.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:01

Because I couldn't decide on one. So um my my top four are Jennifer Maserry, Google. She's got $260 billion of revenue to manage.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:15

And the whole AI automation regime and supply innovation and collaboration agenda that she's managing successfully. It'd be really interesting to see what's on her agenda for 2020. Yeah. On the podcast, I'd love that. Jackie Rock, she's just the new commercial director for the NHS, um, got 80 over 80,000 suppliers and 35 billion pounds of spend. Now she's entering a very complex change environment. So for her, the challenge is all about the change, yeah, um uh case for change and moving forward in a very um decentralized environment and a very complex one. Um Al Williams, uh Barclays, um, still say it reached a high degree of maturity, and on that basis, what's what is next for him in terms of value?

SPEAKER_04 1:17:10

Yes, where do you go?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:11

And and where do you go from that? Turfan Egan Village. Um, the CEO of Rolls Royce and uh his CPO. I'd really love to get those together as a duo because uh Tefan has um tripled the share value since he joined Rolls Royce, whilst going through a cost reduction process and increasing product price at the same time. So it'd be an interesting to see how that duo have worked through that.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:41

Okay. There's four, the next four podcast guests. Okay. There's a challenge.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:48

I think it would be lovely, but it'd be an interesting to get um a range of CPOs who are struggling at the very beginning of the change cycle and those that have accomplished are at steady stage.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:00

Yes, absolutely. You know, yeah, and all of those are in between. Yeah, what a round table that would would be, those four. That would be interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:07

Yeah, it surely is.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:09

Yeah. Oh Kath, that's great. And um, and thank you so much for your for your input. That's um delightful. Um, just what one last question for you. So um, people that want to to talk to you, where where and how can they they get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:23

Uh well, I'm on LinkedIn. Um, I'm regularly on LinkedIn, so uh you can catch me there. Or you can catch me on uh Kathleenharmiston.coor.uk, that's my website. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure to discussion. We could have talked a lot longer.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:38

I'm sure we will now. Yes, yeah, Kath, thank you. Thank you. That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:42

Thank you, Richard. It's been an absolute pleasure.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:45

Thank you for joining us on the Procurement Initiative Leaders Podcast. I really hope you enjoyed it. Looking for more procurement insights, tips, and developments from leading procurement professionals? Join our procurement initiative community on LinkedIn. Just open LinkedIn and search for the Procurement Initiative. And be sure to hit that subscribe button to never miss another episode. Thank you for listening.