Ep. 1 - Leading with Empathy: Liz Rider on Rethinking Leadership in Organizations

Liz Rider is a transformative organizational psychologist, associate fellow of psychology and official top leadership voice on LinkedIn with over 25 years of experience working with large, global companies.

In this episode, Liz describes a new era of leadership that favours trust, empowerment and autonomy over micromanagement and dictation. She delves deep into how leaders can communicate the company's vision, make important decisions, and acquire feedback from their team in return for superior business results.


What to expect:

1. Redefining leadership for modern challenges
2. The impact of vision and values in leadership
3. Inclusivity in decision-making processes
4. Selecting leaders beyond performance metrics
5. Harnessing feedback for leadership growth
6. The importance of ongoing leader development

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Get in touch with Liz Rider on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/liz-rider-humancentricleadership/

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About the host Martina:
Martina Buchhauser is a global leader with a profound knowledge of the automotive industry and its shift towards new and sustainable technologies and the imperative for a responsible and low-carbon business. Her leadership journey has encompassed executive roles in Global Procurement and Supply Chain Networks at General Motors, MAN, BMW, and Volvo Cars, where she until recently served as the Chief Procurement Officer and on the management board. She is a senior advisor of H&Z Management Consulting and is a non-executive director on several company boards. Martina very much enjoys being outside in nature – that’s why she loves hiking, golfing, and skiing. Her family and her friends from all over the world play an important role to her and experiencing life together with them is the greatest joy. Martina is passionate about leadership and has been very engaged in developing and promoting talent.

Get in touch with Martina on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martina-buchhauser/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

I think one of the things that we do as leaders, we have this perception, I think, still of the commander, the controller, the person that knows all the answers. And of course, that's not what employees need. They need to be listened to. They need to be able to work autonomously without being micromanaged. And I think Steve Jobs probably said it really well when he said, you know, why do we hire great people and tell them what to do? We should be hiring great people so they tell us what to do.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Welcome to the Procurement Initiative Leaders Podcast, the ultimate resource for top-level procurement professionals looking to stay ahead of the curve and drive meaningful change within their organizations. I'm your host, Martina Buchhauser, founder of the Procurement Initiative Think Tank and senior advisor at H Set, Europe's leading management consultancy. Join me as I sit down with global leaders in procurement and other relevant areas to uncover the latest trends, strategies, and insights that are shaping the future of procurement. We tackle crucial topics like leadership, technology, value creation, cost management, resilient supply chains, innovation, and many more. Ready to up your game as a leader in procurement? Let's jump into this episode of the Procurement Initiative Leaders Podcast with me, Martina Bohauser. Hello, Liz, Ryder. Welcome, welcome to our podcast series of the Procurement Initiative. I have purposely selected you, and I have purposely selected the topic of leadership, which is one that is the absolute basis of what we do in business, what we do in any aspect of life, I would say. So that's why I wanted to start with this topic of leadership to make sure, you know, we get we're grooving into uh this podcast series with you. So Liz Ryder, organizational psychologist, associate fellow of psychology, LinkedIn, top voice on leadership with over 25 years of experience uh working in large and global companies. Welcome, Liz, again.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Fantastic to be here.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure, and it's also a pleasure that we, the two of us, get to talk today because you and I had the pleasure to work with each other, and I enjoyed this very much. Uh, and this is why we're talking about leadership today. Um, um I'm gonna ask the one million dollar question right in the beginning, because then people can decide whether they're gonna continue and whether you have already given all the answers, which of course, no, I don't think so. Please stay on. We're gonna talk about lots of great things around leadership, around what you can actually practically do in your organization to get started and maybe become a better leader, as we all could be. So, but the one million dollar question is what is the one mistake we make when it comes to leadership, Bliss.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

It's an interesting one. Um, I think one of the things that we do as leaders, we have this perception, I think, still of the commander, the controller, the the person that that knows all the answers. And of course, that's not what employees need. Um, they need to be listened to, they need to be able to work autonomously without being micromanaged. Um, and I think Steve Jobs probably said it really well when he said, you know, why do we hire you know great people and tell them what to do? We should be hiring great people so they tell us what to do. And I think those were very wise words because I still see a lot of leaders who think, hey, you know, I've I've been in business for 15, 20, 25 years, I know best. Um, and then they fall into this trap of maybe micromanaging or um, yeah, just telling people what to do, which of course has a negative impact.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Negative impact on the business itself, on how much people are actually engaged, I guess. Yes, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Absolutely, absolutely. So it it leads to uh disengagement, which leads to reduced productivity. And of course, that's that's what we're looking for, isn't it? We're looking for a productive and happy workforce. That's the that's the ultimate. Um, but if we're micromanaging it, it's very slow, incredibly slow.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Absolutely, and I think we all have been there, right? We've all had in our lives uh managers, and I'm gonna say manager, not leader, maybe, because for me there is a difference. Uh, someone managing something, but someone really leading uh with a lot of passion. Um, but we've all been through this where people have told us in detail what to do, and it it just doesn't feel like, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna go the extra mile because it isn't valued, right? And and this is where it starts. This is where you don't kind of bring out the best uh of people and you know let them be engaged, let them come in with greatest ideas and you know, and even if if one idea doesn't come along that well, well, but at least you have you have used the the wide potential of perspectives and ideas out there.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Yeah, yeah, and it's super important because you know, how are we making the most of everybody in our organization if we've just got a few people, a few leaders that that make all the decisions and seem to know it all. Um, I was talking with some executives quite recently, actually, um, and they had made a decision about their product. Um, and they said, Yeah, yeah, but we know best, we don't need to talk to anybody else. And this is a global product. And I said, Well, it's very interesting that the two of you who are both white, both male, both European, and both in your mid-50s know what people in Singapore would like, a 17-year-old maybe in China would like. And you know, I think this this sense of, yeah, you know, I I know this, I know it best. How can we? I mean, we just look what the pandemic did to us. Uh, no, nobody knew what to do, but we had to figure out what to do. And that's the world that we're we're living in right now, where we we don't know the answers. So we have to be able to get the answers from everybody in our company and from those that we partner with, so those that we we work with around us.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Absolutely. And and isn't there kind of this trend, anyway, that you know, in different regions, there's different tastes, there's different culture anyway. So things like a connected car, or how, for example, a car is used is very different in let's say the in in the Americas, in in Europe, or in um or in China, right? Or Asia, let's say, or China specifically, right? Yeah, so and and that that needs to be covered. Interesting, very interesting. This is my favorite topic. So we're me too. Yes. So super good list. Um, so that was the one uh million dollar question. I think we've already heard a lot of good things um about what people could do to change this. And and I guess we'll also talk a bit about organizational setup later to make sure we understand what can be done to make things fall in place a bit more naturally. Um I think organizational design might play a big role here. But let's say let's talk a bit about how do people become uh a better leader. And I think we all, it's it's not a shame. I mean, we we can all improve every day. Um, so so great. What ideas do we have for people to who listen now in uh in our podcast here? Um, because I have realized, for example, when I worked uh with GM in in procurement, and it was a huge organization, and it was a huge global organization where you know it was even, you think, more difficult for you know everyone to understand and for people for managers, leaders to get people on this train that we needed to be on. And what I realized is, and at first I was a bit agitated and I felt like, oh my god, we're gonna we're hearing this for the for the fifth time now. But then I realized, well, the more we were actually talking about things, the more it got into everyone's habits, right? Because if you say things once, it just it just doesn't mean that everyone understands it in the same way. Everyone is, you know, jumps immediately on a train just because you say something once. I think you have to prove, you have to walk the talk, and you you have to repeat and and make sure that people really understand. And and kind of today you would say, even, you know, find this purpose for why they get up every day. Is that something you have also observed?

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Yeah, I think uh uh absolutely. I mean, when it comes to the vision, uh, I often hear leaders say, yeah, but I talked about that uh nine months ago. We know what it is, and as you say, it's that repetition, it's bringing it into the day-to-day work. You know, this is our vision, this is where we're going, and this is how your daily task is related to that vision. Um, and when it comes to purpose, of course, that's that's something uh that we've seen a growth in in recent years because we know that purpose-driven companies outperform those that don't have purpose. And purpose isn't something that should just be written on a PowerPoint or or on the on the corridors of an organization. It's it's the why. It's the why the company exists. And I think a a lot of people get this wrong because they think, oh, here we go, here's another sort of tick in the box. We need to get this purpose achieved, but it's more what are you on this planet for? Um, and Patagonia have got this really down to a T. They're very good when it comes to purpose because they're looking at, you know, how can we demand more to save our home planet? And and they're very much, I mean, they've had the advertising campaigns about don't buy our jackets, you know, this this cycle of waste. Um, so very much living the purpose, you know, that's their reason for being. Uh, and as I say, I think they're they're one organization that's that's doing it really, really well. Um, and I think the other point I have there is I often use the analogy of a train journey. You mentioned trains earlier, um, when we're talking about the vision, for example. So if you're on a leadership team, um, it could be the vision, it could be change. Um, you've been talking about that for some time, maybe a few months. And then when you launch that to the organization, it's the first time that they're here in it. So often the leadership team I see as the driver of the train who's gone through the tunnel and is out the other side in the light, in the daylight, whereas the rest of the organization uh maybe in the tunnel or maybe haven't even left the platform, or they could have gone on another train. So that analogy I think is quite nice to think about as a leader. You know, where am I on that train? You know, am I driving this change? So I know a lot about it, I've been working on it for a few months, or am I at the back of the train or on the platform, haven't even started? And depending where you are uh on that train, will you have different needs?

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Absolutely. So so this really means to um to make sure you understand the the organization, you understand what's going on in this in this change process where people are in these various phases of change to make sure that you're not losing some of the people, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Yeah, they've got on another train at this point. So we want to bring bring people along with us.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Right, right. No, I like the analogy. It's uh it's it's really cool. Um, but why does it still happen then you know leaders managers are promoted nowadays, right? And or have always been promoted, but you know, is there is there something you need to be alert of when selecting leaders? Um, because we've seen, I've seen in my in my career a lot that people who who had great expert knowledge were you know were promoted to leaders, but then maybe not necessarily the the people with the the people skills, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:07

No, absolutely. And I think this is a common error that we make. Uh we select the the high performer who might be fantastic in their expertise. And it makes me think of a software engineer that I I know, incredibly talented guy, you know, and and kept becoming a high performer, high performer. So he was given a team. And for six months, he was not in a good place because he didn't want a team. He didn't like having a team, he didn't know how to lead a team. You know, he would just expected everybody to just do their job. And of course they didn't. They needed direction, they needed motivation. And you know, he was on the point of leaving the company, and he actually went to his leader and said, Hey, you know, I'm not happy. And his leader said, Oh, no, no, no, no worries. Let's put you on um a different career path, let's put you on a technical career path. Because he's happy sitting in a room coding all day. You know, he would never leave his room if he if he didn't have to. And that was great for him. And he's adding so much value to the company, uh, being able to stay on that technical track rather than go into something that doesn't work for him. So I think that's what we get wrong a lot of the time. Leadership requires a totally different set of skills compared to your day job. Uh, but often we're promoting people and then say, oh yeah, now you've just got to lead these people. Well, just leading these people is not easy. You know, humans are complex. Uh it's it's not an easy job. Um, so I think we have to really take leadership much more seriously and really be selective um about who we are promoting.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

I think that's a that's a really good point. Um the thing though is if if you think about that specific situation you were talking about, it was also very uh very good from this guy's the software and engineer's uh boss that he or she actually embraced the wish uh from this guy not to be a leader in the in the organization. Because that's also something where people might not well, first of all, it was great that he went there and said, Look, it's not my thing, right? Uh so he could actually say that, which is also a big piece of leadership that actually, you know, people can come in with their concerns and and don't have to have to be afraid of any repercussions. Um, and and so so this was great that he dared, and then that uh the boss actually said, Well, you know what, no problem, you're gonna go back to what you like, and you know, I'm still gonna take care of you, and you have great perspective to grow, but you you know, you don't necessarily have to take care of the people management, yeah. Yeah, and I think lots of good uh textbook uh examples, actually.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

And I think that's it. It's this because I've worked with uh high potential for for many, many years, and often leaders will believe that that's their potential, you know, these are my people, rather than actually, no, they're not your people, you're borrowing them for an amount of time, and and you know, maybe they want to go and work in another area of the business and develop themselves uh in a in a different expertise. So we have to, one of the things that I think that we have to do is to to move away from holding on to the talented people, and it's quite natural, right? You know, if you've got a team that are really talented, you do you want them to go? Maybe not. Um, but I think we have to to think broader than than ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

And they might come back, right? Once they've once they've gone through more development, they might be really happy to come back. And even I've even seen this with you know, letting someone go to another company and then come back. Um it's always hard because of course you're losing a good person, but hey, you know, there's more talent than there's talent to be developed, which is also a leader's job, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Yeah, yeah. And holding on to them isn't isn't going to be helpful because they're gonna go, you know, they they will leave. So um to be able to be that open-minded and to to really nurture and develop your your talent. Somebody, somebody, uh an old colleague of mine said, we only ever borrow talent.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Um, and you know, maybe I relate that to my kids as well, who are now teenagers and think, oh, I'm only borrowing them. They're going soon, they're they're moving on.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

There you go. Yeah, absolutely. So um we've I think we've we've given a lot of great practical hints already. But is there is there anything like practical steps um business leaders can take to start improving their leadership skills?

SPEAKER_00 19:15

A big one for me is self-awareness. Um, there is a statistic that 95% of us think we are self-aware, but the reality is more like 10 to 15%. And I think to be able to get some feedback on how your team sees you as a leader can be really insightful. Um, and again, depending where you are in your leadership journey, and I always call it a journey. It's not you go in a leadership program and that's it, you're a leader. It does not work like that. Um, but you ask your team, you know, what should I start doing? What should I stop doing, and what should I continue doing? And you can either ask them to do that maybe in a team meeting. But if the psychological safety isn't there yet, maybe you could ask them to write on a whiteboard and you leave the room and you come back in and look at the anonymous feedback. But I think it's really important to get that feedback and not reject that feedback because we might not like it. And I I absolutely remember when I was leading a team and I got feedback very early on within the first three months, that I'd become one of those leaders that just is in meetings all day and doesn't have time for her team. And I I wanted to say, no, I'm not like that, I'm not. But that's what they saw. That's what I was doing. That was my behavior. And I may not have liked it, but that was the reality. So instead of rejecting it and saying, oh no, no, but it's because I'm new in the role or I'm just getting to know the other senior leaders, I took it on board and I changed the behavior. And I think that's the important thing with feedback. It's in that moment, we take it on board, we make the change. And I think that's one big thing that we can do as leaders is to yeah, embrace what our team are telling us.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Absolutely. But it takes some guts to actually go to the team and say, hey, you know, what is it I should rather stop doing? What should I do more of? Because that always in the past used to be a sign of weakness, right? When you ask your team, what am I doing wrong? Yeah. Uh, which of course is nonsense because um you want to improve, right? So why not asking the ones that are immediately around you know, to get to get some feedback and start. So, yes, it it seems like a leader has to be really courageous, if I could say so.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

I'd say so, definitely. Definitely. And you know, things may not work the first time you try it. Um, so sometimes it is about testing it out and say, Well, I I asked them to give me feedback and they told me I was perfect. I might be a bit suspicious then. So, you know, try it out again. And maybe they don't feel safe yet to be able to speak up. Right. So you know, it again, it's another one, it takes time. I remember one um vice president telling me that she'd been in uh uh the the management team meeting, and the you know, the leader, her leader came in and said, Right, uh, I want to know everything that's going on, all the problems that are happening. I want to create a psychologically safe environment where everybody can sort of own up to the mistakes that they're making. And she was like, fantastic. So off she went and said everything that was happening that wasn't so good. And uh he then responded with, Don't come to me with these sorts of problems. So that was it. Everybody else closed down and no more, no more saying what was what was going wrong. So yeah, you can't just launch into it, you have to be able to to take the steps towards that.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Right. And yeah, such a shame what you lose out on uh if you don't if you don't get that kind of feedback, or absolutely people can't say, well, this is really wrong, or you know, here we need to look into this. And yeah, but we've all been there. Um so it we've been talking a lot about now how to become a better leader. I think we've you have given uh a lot of very practical insights, what people can you know immediately start doing. Um, one thing we we we talked about now, or one thing that comes to mind is the words trust, right? It's like or this this psychological safety you were talking about. Uh, this whole notion around I can actually go to my leader and talk about everything that is on my mind, right? So, and of course, we're all not naive uh in the business, but it has to be that you know, you go to your to your leader and you talk about things that might bother you or that you think about that you would want to change, whatever it is. But this needs a lot of trust. So you kind of have to be able to trust your leader that he's he or she is not gonna laugh at you, is not gonna walk out of the door and talk bad about you, is not gonna give you any, you know, uh what do you call it, punishment almost for that you have spoken up? So how do we yes, it is important and it is very important um to get going and also to reach great business results. How do we manage, how do we instill that kind of trust in a company? Because I I'd also say, and then I let you talk, um, it's a bit a cultural difference from you know one country to the other, how how trust is seen. And um, it was a bit in I'd say, especially in in our area, okay. I'm sitting here in Germany, um, it's trust has always been a bit a really big word, right? And and not necessarily so much used in the business context. In Sweden, for example, the word trust has been used a lot in the business context. Um so so what can we do? But it it seems like it's necessary, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:52

So it's a key. I mean, it is a foundation really to leadership. Um, and and trust is something that takes time to build. Um it is quite rare to you know for for people to meet and say, yeah, I trust you straight away. Um, so there has to be this development time, but it can be lost within seconds. And I think that's that's something a lot of leaders need to be careful with. I mean, if you have got leadership principles or you have corporate values, if you are not following those, if you're not behaving in the way that the values state, then you will lose trust immediately. Um, so it's really important that the what you're saying corresponds to with what you're doing. And I think that's one of the fundamental things that I see that isn't happening. It doesn't match up. So doing and and saying have to absolutely match up. You know, if you're um talking to your team in one way and then you go and talk to the management team in another way, you know, you you're probably gonna get caught out at some point. You might think, oh, I can get away with it. I can go to my management team and say, oh, that lot, they're just so bad. And then you go to your your team and you say, oh, that lot, they're so bad, you're gonna get caught out. So it how can you be authentic? You know, you will be different in your management team compared to your your team, but how can you be authentically different? Um, really important. I I think one thing that leaders are are missing out on is going out into the organization and talking to the front line. Um the ex CEO of uh Medtronic, who which is a large healthcare tech company, Bill George, he always had this rule that was you know, 30% of his time was with customers, and 30% was with the front line, and 30% with executives, and 10% with uh external stakeholders. And he said that he was quite unique in that, but he learned so much from going out into the business and talking to people, and it built trust. You know, people believed in him. Uh, and I think often we see executives sort of sitting away in the top floor, you know, in their in their ivory towers, as we often say, yeah, and you don't see them. So it's so important to to to get out, to to be seen and and to have that visibility.

unknown 28:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

So that could be a good way of engaging with people directly and um and I mean learning about the business and learning what's really going on, because you know, you sometimes when you sit in your ivory tower, you might not you might not hear. And depending on how open you are, you might not hear about the the real problems that uh you should actually focus on and and fix.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

But that's an MD said that to me one time. He said, Liz, I learn so much more when I go out and I talk to my web developer than I do when my uh SVP of of marketing comes and presents to me. Because just by presenting a glossy PowerPoint, there's something that has to be perfect there. Whereas you know, the going out and just having a chat, you get to hear the reality. You know, what is going on? What what what are some of the mistakes that are being made? How can how can we fix those? Right. It seems uh it seems so easy, right? I mean, it's it's really not. Yeah, no, but I agree. You know, it seems so easy. I think it seems so easy that we often just overlook it and think, oh, we don't need to really work on our leadership, it just happens, but it doesn't. And you know, and when it comes to trust, there's there's actually metrics behind this. You know, if we if we look at companies where there's low trust compared to high trust, there's a huge difference. So in high trust organizations, so that means the employees have trust in their leadership, we see 50% higher productivity. Wow. Yeah, you know, engagement is uh 76%. Wow. You know, less burnout uh and more satisfaction, fewer sick days. So the the it's it's pretty compelling, I think. It is very compelling. Because if you're doing engagement scores or you have surveys, health, health service, whatever you have, and you know, you see, oh yeah, there's low trust in leadership. You know, some people dismiss that and say, oh yeah, but they're never gonna like the leadership or they're never gonna be happy. Yeah, take it seriously. Because if you have low trust, what impact is that having on your organization? And we can we can prove what impact it's having. It's it's it's hurting your bottom line, actually. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

There's a there's a direct relation uh of you know between engagement and business results, right? Yeah, absolutely. I it's just hard to believe that. I mean, even though a lot of companies have those kinds of surveys, right? And you wonder why then aren't these surveys used in a way? And and yes, I can I can see this, you know, yeah, people might not be happy with the one or the other thing, and it might be, you know, a bit systemic, but still I think you have to look into it and you have to find out definitely what's behind it, right? You have to go one step deeper to figure out okay, what is it exactly and how can we change this? Because I mean, if you ask people, do you want more money? Are you happy with the money? Well, most people might say, No, well, I want more. But um, there's there's something underlying that.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Yep. And it and it's that one step deeper. I really like what you said there. It's going that one step deeper. Yeah, how often do you meet somebody in the corridor and say, How are you? And the answer is, oh, fine, oh good. Ask the next question.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

Yeah, and one step deeper, you know. Yeah, you know, what are you working on at the moment that that makes you feel fine? Yeah, just go deeper. Find out what's really going on. You only have to ask a couple of questions and you really get people to open up.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Yeah, uh, that brings me to this tiny little world of empathy. So it's a bit being interested in the people around you, right? I mean, it's in your private life as much as it is in your workplace that I want to know who's around me and what are people actually doing. And and I I can see, you know, if they're sad, or I mean, in most cases, hopefully. Um, but then, you know, it it means talking to people and understanding what you know what's wrong and and trying to help. Because you can actually, even if there's a private issue people go through, you can help them in giving them a little bit of a relief, you know, uh in the workplace. And yeah, and just asking what do you need, I think is uh makes a big difference. How do you see that?

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Yeah, and you don't have to get into all the the details. You know, I know some people really shy away from this and go, oh no, I don't want to get into somebody's personal life, but you can be supportive as their leader and say, I understand you're going through some personal difficulties at the moment. Uh, I'm just here for you. Just let me know if there's anything you need. You don't you don't have to go any further than that. So, you know, and it really is a worry for people that, oh my gosh, they might start opening up or crying or whatever. Um, and I think also empathy in terms of, you know, it's been a tough year for many people. You know, we've gone from pandemic to supply chain problems to you know, war, to so much happening in the world. So business is not easy. So just to have a bit of empathy in the workplace, to understand, to appreciate, you know, I know that you've been working long hours, uh, really appreciate that. Um, maybe you take some time off, you know, take the afternoon off, just show in some empathy. And and again, we know there's some research by catalyst that found that when employees have empathetic leaders, they are likely to be more innovative. So 61% more likely to be innovative, and again, engaged, 76% more engaged. And as we've said, there's a clear link between engagement and profitability. You know, the the organizations in the top quartile uh of uh highly engaged, have highly engaged employees are 23% more profitable.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Yeah, and that's the thing that you know is just is amazing that with um engaging people a lot more, which doesn't cost much, right? You can create so much better results. Yeah, um, yes. That's amazing. That's why we're talking about leadership here today and the great things you can actually do as the the first um piece of our of our podcast series. Um I was wondering, you know, we talked a lot about so if we get this right, that we instill more trust, that we engage people more, that we're open, that we're creating those more psychologically safe environments. So, how can we make sure then, in especially in times today where, you know, there's this war for talent, and how do we make sure then that we mobilize the talent or that we bring that kind of talent on board?

SPEAKER_00 36:29

Yeah, I think we need to really think carefully about work and how work is organized. Um, a lot of companies are starting to move towards a more skills-first approach rather than going, hey, you're Martina and you're from procurement and that's your job, and you stay in that job and you maybe progress all the way through your career in procurement. It's breaking down the jobs into skills and saying, okay, you know, maybe we don't need these particular skills anymore, but you've got all of these other skills that we're not using at the moment. So, how can we utilize all the all the skills that you have? And how can we start to move people around the organization? So moving away from linear careers and really thinking about uh squiggly careers or career playground, where you're moving around much, much more. They call it the the internal talent marketplace, uh, which I really like um because I don't really like to be boxed into to one particular job. I like to be able to work in in different places and and utilize my skills across those. And so I think that's really important to give people, we know the Gen Z are wanting flexibility. Big or big organizations can offer that, you know. I'm as a Gen Z might not want to spend five years in headquarters. I might want to work for a couple of months in Singapore or go off to Mumbai or wherever you have offices. So, how can you offer that flexibility? And thinking about the workforce, it's not just the the younger generation, it's also the older generation who are not going to retire at 60, 65. You know, people uh uh are living longer, so wanting to work longer. So it really is rethinking work, and you know, maybe sort of the 55, 60, 65s uh want to work part-time, right? And maybe the younger generation want to work part-time. So it I think we really have to yeah, consider how we work going forward. So it's not just this kind of nine to five, five days a week that we've we've had for so long now.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Yeah. Absolutely. So we've been we've become a bit more flexible in how we work, but that already is, you know, some people are trying to uh to bring back to what it was before pandemic, uh, unfortunately. Um but also, yeah, it seems you can learn a lot more in going into different uh areas, different countries, but you can also give a lot from you know whatever you have put into your backpack. You can help people understand where you come from and why is it is it the way it is, and you can teach them something too. So it's exactly it's even a two-way street, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Yeah, exactly. And it also helps break down silos because we do know that uh that can be a problem in in organizations that you stay in your silo. But suddenly as we start to you know we give people the opportunity to move around, we can we can see that that's a real benefit.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

Yeah, I and I I'm unfortunately I have I have seen this, these silos, they really prevent you from you know getting the best out. You know, it's it it's such a and that could also be so easy, but it it maybe has to do with um setting the right incentives and uh setting goals that that are the same for for everyone, and so that everyone can contribute to uh a specific um goal that is important for the company. So anyway, so what you just mentioned, Liz, about moving around seems like you know, you're learning a lot. So you also have to have and want kind of this this learning process and learning skills. So where should people stop or start, you know, adding more to their to their career or adding more into their knowledge, into their backpack?

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Yeah, I think learning opportunities are everywhere right now. I mean, you just have to go on to Google, chat GPT, and you can learn. Uh, I think it's it's uh it's important to keep up to date with what is happening out there because things are moving so quickly. So to you know, just look ahead for a moment and think, you know, what is coming next? What skills do I need? What am I going to need in the next two to five years? Might be difficult to predict the next five years because things are moving so so quickly. Um, if you think at an organizational level, Unileave are, I think, doing pretty well when it comes to this. They are they offer what they call a flex program. So they use AI um to be able to push opportunities towards you. So they can look at your skill set and say, hey Martina, there's a really good project over here in in Singapore. Maybe you you'd like that opportunity. And I think that's where we're going because it's objective. We take away the subjectivity of us as humans because we are biased when we're making decisions in in recruitment or promotion. Right. So I think there's a real possibility here to to yeah, to to be able to have that movement and to be able to try out different opportunities. Um, and they also at Unilever have what they call UWork, which is a flexible employment. So for um some people who are consultants, it it can be quite tricky because they haven't got a regular income. But you'd be employed by Unilever, but maybe two days a month, and then you have the opportunity to go off and do other things. So work becomes much more flexible, you're not just attached to one organization. Um, and I think we can start to do that on a small scale now.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

Absolutely. Yeah, seems to be seems to be happening on a small scale, but just so that we're not. I mean, this this sounds like okay, you come and go, and and that's not what you mean, right? It's not this, oh, I just work a little bit today because now I feel like it. That that I mean, of course, that's not what we want to promote.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

No, no, not at all, not at all. But you could be an expert in your field and you could share that expertise across many other organizations because a lot of us are struggling with the same things. I go into lots of different organizations and I hear the same struggles.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

You know, what if we could collaborate more? What if we could help each other more uh on some of the basics? Um, I think.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

Yes, yes. See this more as a collaborative approach than always trying to play the competition card, right? Absolutely, yeah. Uh, I think a lot is damaged. By just jumping to conclusions that oh, you can't talk to them or can't do this, can't do that. Um, yes, we all know there are antitrust laws, but if we're if we work on generic things, or if we were to work a bit more together towards you know our climate uh or energy change that needs to happen, right? We'd we'd do good things together. And uh maybe it's time to think more about collaboration than always playing the competition card, where you know we have a common problem, we have a joint problem that needs to be resolved in this world. And now looking at COP28, well, it seems like we do need more uh people in the in the solution finding uh area than than anything else.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Yeah, I do, I definitely think collaboration and collaboration internally, because internal competition also isn't good for business. So, how can we be collaboratively collaborative internally as well as externally? We need to do both.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Yeah, it's because certainly the competition is not within the borders of a company, which many many play and love playing. Um, so that's to me the biggest nonsense and the biggest, you know, destroyer of great performance, if that is a word. Um, so the competition is not inside, and and sometimes the competition isn't even externally, right? I mean in in ways where the whole world needs to collaborate um and find find solutions.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

So that would be fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

I think it's still, I say this again, it's amazing how engagement, how if we look at uh leadership, how this uh reflects upon performance and in the end profitability of a company. So I think we've given lots of great uh examples of you know how people have started changing this, which which I think is is great. And of course, this is all about we talked about it a bit before. It's all about company culture, right? And and yes, of course, culture a culture is not being changed uh quickly. It's cultures are there, they've been, I don't know, over decades and uh over ages have been developed, right? Um so so how can you still then you know find good ways to to change and transform the company in a in a bit of a different uh direction in that transformation that needs to happen now anyway?

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Yeah, and I I would always start at the top, always. Um you can start further down in the organization, and I've seen some really good initiatives, but I think starting with the the senior team and and really defining how do we want to work, what is leadership in our organization, um and really set that out, whether that's leadership principles. I mean, I know Amazon have uh leadership principles, a lot of organizations do that really define what leadership looks like in this company. Um and role modeling leadership. I mean, we have to role model it every single day. Uh, and that's important because when you role model it, others will then follow. If you're role modeling not so good leadership, unfortunately, others will follow. And that's how we start to change the culture. Um, and it won't happen in a day or a month, it will take a number of months, but we have to start somewhere. You can't just wait and say, oh yeah, we'll we'll we'll work on the culture next month when we have a bit more time. We have to start now.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

But uh, I mean, we've talked about a lot of very practical hints that people can, you know, immediately immediately start implementing in into their daily uh working routine. But but is there anything you would say you know helps now looking a bit at the bigger scheme of a company? What I what I have seen, for example, is in one of the companies I I worked for, we at one point in time, since we had the silo problem, we had we took the the three biggest areas that needed to collaborate. We we took those areas and basically on all levels built teams where these people would naturally work together because now they're coming together organizationally in their teams. You know, we've we've set times and so that everything could actually follow a new process and a new collaboration model. Um, and the results were tremendous, right? So, but it it took it was it was quite it took this organizational and a bit of a structural change to make it happen. Um yeah, big deal, but big results.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

Yeah, yeah, and to even sit down and think about you know who's in my my network. So as a yeah, as a leadership team, thinking about your particular function, you know, who who's in my strategic network? So that means strategically how I get things done at the organizational level, who's in my operational network, so day-to-day, and who's in my career network, so my personal network. And it can be quite, I often do it as a sociogram. So you you name the department, so you name the people, and you know, then just put in red, that's not a great relationship, amber, it's an okay relationship, and green, it's a really good relationship. When you've got that pictorial sociogram in front of you, you can then think, right, I need to work on the red ones. Who in my team can help here? And that starts to bring people together because you know which relationships you need to work on, you know, where are the weaknesses? And and I think that's something that can really help to bring people together to collaborate across the company.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

And how do you is there is there a good way to approach people if you have this a bit of a red relationship, you know, a bit poisoned or whatever, why, you know, for whatever reason, sometimes there might not even be a good reason why this is a red relationship. You just feel it is red, right? Um but how can people go about this? Because I think that's also it takes a lot of strength, uh, a lot of courage, courage to go there and say, hey, you know what, I feel like, you know, I'm I don't know, I'm not giving you maybe what you need to do the job. I don't know, whatever it is. But is there is there good ways to do that?

SPEAKER_00 51:18

But I mean, take a lunch, take a coffee. You know, uh usually people want to know what's in it for them, of course. Um and I think it is important just as you said to have that dialogue. If you go into this sort of defense attack, it isn't going to work so well. But if you can go into just a curious, you know, wondering, you know, what you're working on, and start to make a connection between what they're working on and what you're working on. Because we can we can think, oh, I'm in procurement, I'm in finance, we're doing totally different jobs, but you're not. Of course you're not. You know, we're working for the same company. So being curious, finding out what the connections are and building on that. And don't expect a red relationship to change in one meeting. It's it's gonna it's gonna need a bit of time and effort.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

Yeah, but of course there are ways, and and you can always ask the question how can we collaborate and you know, even bring better performance for our teams, bring a better environment for the teams, how can they work closer together? I think that has always helped uh to find ways at least. Yeah. So how do you you want to promote a bit the good examples, right? Because some people are doing these things naturally. Uh they are just natural leaders. Um, how do you promote this? How do you make sure that others see, you know, that there are all of these good examples? And you know, once you once you try a bit more and you engage a bit more, that it thinks magic actually happens, I would say. Uh but how do you make sure that you kind of promote this, you that other people see what's going on?

SPEAKER_00 53:12

I think you can uh have allies for sure who can help to promote you if you're not promoting yourself. I I hear this quite a bit um from the sort of the reluctant leader, maybe somebody who's a who could be a really good leader, but maybe hides themselves away a little bit or just doesn't think that they're very good, doesn't have the confidence. So I think it's important how do we put those people forward? Because sometimes we mix up confidence and competence. Just because you're confident doesn't mean that you have got the competence to lead. So, how can we support each other and look out for those uh success stories and help to promote them, to put them forward, to make sure that they're in the discussion when it comes to for promotion, for recognition.

SPEAKER_01 54:03

Because you really, and you said that to me the other day, you really want to reach the people who, and you had a an uh a term for that, but I forgot. Um, you want to reach those who have basically given up, right? And that happens a lot in an organization that's and then they're of course, they've just they're not part of the game anymore. Yeah. Well what do you remember the term you used? No.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

No, I don't. I I mean, I uh uh obviously you've got the quiet quitters. I mean, that's that's what I meant. Yeah, yeah. So that's um that's what we we you know, some TikToker brought to fame, but quiet quitting has been going on for for years, of course. Um, yeah, I remember working in the tax office in the UK before going to university and just watching the quiet quitters there, who would just do everything so slowly because they were just ticking off the days to retirement, to be honest. And of course, that that's what can happen. You become so demotivated, so not listened to, told that you're a low performer, you give in. You know, you stop. You maybe don't, you just do your job, put your head down, get on with it. And really, is that what we want? Yeah, I've seen people that have been in these, you know, the the low performing uh boxes and then moved into becoming a high performer by changing jobs. Could be as simple as that. They might be in the wrong job. Yes. Um, or yeah, it could be that they're you know haven't had any development, haven't you know, their ideas have been just not listened to. There are multiple reasons why people end up the way that they end up, and I think it's our responsibility as leaders to really help to provide the conditions of motivation and to really engage the people that we have, you know, in our care at work. It's a really important job, a leader. Uh, and when we can really bring out the best in every single person in an organization, just imagine what we're achieving.

SPEAKER_01 56:22

I think this is really a nice, uh almost like a nice summary of you know how you can be alert as leaders. And but it really means to be in touch with people, to to give feedback, to let them actually come in and state their opinion. It's not it's not that people sit there and say, well, from today on I'm not gonna do anything anymore. That's not the case. It's more you know, it's a development, and then um yeah, unfortunately, people kind of quit. But um, yeah, really, really, really good. Um, you know, how you explained that part, that it is in the care of the leaders and in the definitely in the responsibility of the leaders to uh to make sure people um thrive and can develop in their jobs, right? Definitely. Super Liz. Uh, I think we've covered a lot of things. Um, is there is there anything else you would want to cover that I haven't talked about?

SPEAKER_00 57:28

No, I just say keep working on it. Yeah, we everybody keeps working on their leadership. It's it's gonna be a better workplace for everyone. Yeah, well definitely great.

SPEAKER_01 57:39

Um so small summary though, for those who you know had to do something else in between. Uh let's say important are a handful of things, right? When it comes to leadership, and I'm gonna let you list repeat what are the most important things uh in a nutshell. In a nutshell.

SPEAKER_00 58:04

Build trust. It's a it's uh it's a key, it's a foundation. So work on your trust. Um, work on your trust with people, never stop working on that. You can uh take to take time to build it, lose it in seconds. Uh really think about engagement. Yeah, how are you engaging your your people? Ditch the micromanagement. You know, if it if it's too difficult to stop doing tomorrow, think of the low-risk uh things that you can just let go of. Allow other people to to have autonomy, to empower them, and you will see the results. Live with your anxiety for a little while and uh yeah, watch somebody else doing something differently and and and you know live with that. Um and and we know that this isn't just a nice to have, this has a business impact. It impacts the bottom line. So when we look after our people, they will look after our business. Uh that comes from Richard Branson, and you know, he's a he's a billionaire, so I think he's got some good things to say.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

Ah, so that should have worked. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Liz. Uh, this is great advice, and I think a lot of things that people can just, you know, walk out here today and tomorrow um practice and implement some of those things. It's fun too, I must say, if you see uh how things are falling into places and how you know how much engagement can really uh move the needle on the on the business.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

Absolutely. And you know, and it's great for everyone then. You know, everybody sort of can feel the difference. Right. Right. Nice. But good. Thank you very much for having me. Lovely to to uh speak about my favorite topic.

SPEAKER_01 59:58

Yes. Uh well, thank you so much, Liz. Um, well, I guess you do this professionally. I mean, if companies get stuck, uh, they could actually come and get some advice from you, from people like you, uh, which is great. Some sometimes the help is needed. Um, but it it's also, as you say, I mean, it's just confronting yourself, confronting yourself in the management team uh with those facts and how you can improve. That is a good start. And um it is not rocket science.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:32

It's easy, but it's difficult.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:35

There we go. That's uh let's let's stop here. It's easy, but it's difficult. I like this. Uh, thank you so much, Liz Ryder, uh, for taking the time being with us here today. And uh, well, hopefully we can connect again once some time has gone and uh some people have actually uh used all the great advice that we've given today. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for joining us on the Procurement Initiative Leaders podcast. I really hope you enjoyed it. Looking for more procurement insights, tips, and developments from leading procurement professionals? Join our procurement initiative community on LinkedIn. Just open LinkedIn and search for the procurement initiative community and be sure to hit that subscribe button to never miss another episode.