George Marshall and George Patton

Glen J. Carpenter speaks with historian J. Furman Daniel about the relationship between George C. Marshall and George S. Patton. Their conversation examines Marshall’s role as mentor, manager, and judge of talent; Patton’s rise through the interwar Army; the Louisiana and Carolina maneuvers; the Knutsford Affair; Patton’s command limits; and the ways Marshall helped make Patton’s wartime success possible while keeping his liabilities in view.

BOOKS BY J. FURMAN DANIEL III

Patton: Battling with History
21st Century Patton: Strategic Insights for the Modern Era

Age of Marshall is a podcast from the George C. Marshall Foundation exploring the people, events, and ideas that shaped Marshall’s world and the legacy of the soldier and statesman whose leadership helped define the 20th century.

Age of Marshall was established through the generosity of Jessine Monaghan, whose support made this series possible. The George C. Marshall Foundation presents this series in honor of her memory and her dedicated service as a Trustee.

Learn more about the George C. Marshall Foundation, its public programs, and its research library at MarshallFoundation.org.

Transcript

Welcome And Series Purpose

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Welcome to Age of Marshall from the George C. Marshall Foundation. I'm Glenn Carpenter. In this series, we explore the people, events, and ideas that shaped Marshall's world, and the legacy of the soldier and statesmen whose leadership helped define the 20th century. Age of Marshall was established through the generosity of Jasine Monahan, whose support made this series possible. The George C. Marshall Foundation presents this series in honor of her memory and her dedicated service as a trustee. My guest today is Jay Furman Daniel, a historian and patent scholar whose work examines not only George Patton's battlefield career, but the ideas, image, and legacy that have made him one of the most debated American commanders of the Second World War. Furman, welcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Glenn, thanks for having me. I'm really glad to be on the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Awesome.

Marshall Mentors A Combat Superstar

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Thanks. So to start us off, kind of the highest possible level, tell me about the relationship you see between George Marshall and Patton as it unfolds across their careers.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Well, they actually knew each other very well for over 30 years. And they helped each other out at various points in their career. And it quickly developed a pattern where Marshall is the manager. Marshall is the kind of wiser, slightly older kind of leader who shepherds and mentors Patton. And Patton is the younger, kind of harder charging combat soldier. And they kind of created a team work that works really well, particularly in the Second World War, where both are general officers and both play very important roles in winning World War II.

First Meeting In World War I

SPEAKER_01 1:45

What did the earliest pre-war encounters between Marshall and Patton look like, kind of on the record? And why do they matter?

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Well, they first met in July of 1917 when Patton was working as the headquarters commander for General Pershing. And Marshall actually is working as the as a staff member on General Seibert's staff for the Big Red One, First Infantry Division. They actually meet because Patton's running Pershing's headquarters and actually meets the staff member for General Seibert, and they both take note of each other. And this kind of establishes a pattern where they watch each other. They understand they are both kind of hard-charging junior officers. They're both captains at the time, but they'll get promoted up during World War I very quickly. And they both kind of make note of each other and kind of mark each other as someone to get to know. And then they continue that relationship on again, off again for the remainder of their careers.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

So from Marshall's point of view, what stands out about Patton's World War I or interwar service?

SPEAKER_00 2:56

So Marshall very early on sees Patton as a fighter. He sees them as someone who will, you know, take a position or win a battle or die trying. And that impresses Marshall. That's a different type of leadership than the type of leadership Marshall had. But Marshall recognizes that value. So, so very early on, Marshall sees Patton for what he is and understands that he has the potential. If you can do that at kind of the junior officer and field grade officer level, you can do that as a general officer as well. And Marshall realizes that and makes a note of that.

Maneuvers That Made Patton Famous

SPEAKER_01 3:39

In those pre-war maneuvers in Louisiana and the Carolinas, what does Patton do that kind of seems to change how senior leaders are viewing him?

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Patton wins. And Patton shows himself as aggressive and having fully formed understanding of how to use mobility and speed to win modern warfare. So Marshall is paying very close attention. He understands a war is coming. He understands that it is fundamentally different than the type of kind of more static combat that was that defined World War I. And he's looking for young, hard-charging talent to lead the army in the next war. So Patton is different. He distinguishes himself in the Louisiana maneuvers. He moves much faster than any of the other American commanders, actually goes outside of the combat area, gets in a little trouble for that, but kind of talks his way out of it by saying, in war, there are no rules. Patton also pays for gas out of his own pocket. His tanks are running out of gas. So keep them moving, keep that aggressive spirit pushing forward. Pay for gas out of your own pocket. It helps that Patton was very wealthy. He had family money from both sides, but he wins there. And then he wins again in the Carolina maneuvers, actually captures his kind of old rival, uh General Hugh Drum, and is successful. And he's not perfect, but he's of all the American commanders, the most aggressive, the one that shows the most kind of fire and drive. And Patton gets it. And Marshall sees that. And Marshall has a there's a wonderful quote from Marshall about mistakes made there, mistakes made in Louisiana and the Carolinas will save lives and prevent mistakes being made in Europe. So Marshall's scouting for talent. Patton sees this as his opportunity to show off what he can do. And they, you know, Patton impresses his boss and basically is auditioning for a job for the coming

Flamboyance Versus Restraint In Command

SPEAKER_00 5:44

war.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

There is a very clear division between Marshall's leadership style and Patton's very flamboyant one. Do the sources talk about that or capture it and how?

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yes, and and both Patton and Marshall understood the other man's strength. Marshall famously said you had to keep a thumb on Patton. And I think what he meant by that is Patton was a heck of a good fighter, the best the Americans had. But he was also a pain in the butt. He was also somebody, if left to his own devices, would create headaches for Marshall or other American leaders. Marshall knew that. And then you see with Patton's writings, he writes about Marshall almost like the big brother he never had. He writes about him in tones that he doesn't write about most other figures. Patton usually was fairly dismissive of other generals or other political figures. Patton adores Marshall and it comes through in their letters. I think the the best one, best letters from Patton are letters he wrote summer of 1939, when Patton and Marshall were actually living together at Fort Myer, Virginia. Marshall had had been appointed to chief of staff of the Army, but his quarters weren't ready. Patton was the base commander at Fort Myer and offered to invite General Marshall in. And if you read the letters from Patton to his wife, Beatrice, it was it was gleeful. It was, hey, I get to have this great man as my roommate. And he called it batching it, short for bacheloring it. And it's just it's a it's a side of Patton you don't normally see. In in his letters, like I said, he was very quick to be derisive of other senior commanders. Not so with Marshall. And again, the fact that Marshall could hold that respect from a from a kind of a judgy, often jerky and petty person like Patton, to me, very, very much speaks to the esteem he was held in by generals all around him.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Where do you see Marshall's command system intersecting most sharply with Patton's way of leading troops?

Marshall Builds Coalition Top Cover

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Marshall ran interference for Patton. So Marshall did an excellent job of working with the United States Navy and ensuring cooperation in operations like Operation Torch and Husky. The Navy was really important, and Patton wasn't always good at having those relationships with the Navy. Marshall was a respected person, and Marshall took it on himself to kind of smooth over some of the cracks that Patton had made between the Army and the Navy. Marshall also, again, was excellent at fighting the kind of battles and making relationships with allies. So again, Patton was not always good at working with the British. Marshall was. And Marshall, you know, made sure there was good cooperation in the Allied coalition. Eisenhower needs some credit on that too. But Patton was able to win battles uh on the battlefield in large part because he had top cover with the Navy and had top cover with the British and had top cover with President Roosevelt, thanks to people like Eisenhower and Marshall. And Marshall, you know, from the top down, makes that war effort work because of his kind of patience and kindness and dedication to the mission and lack of ego, all things that Patton didn't really have. But Marshall made it work. And Marshall also was willing to look over some of kind of Patton's weaknesses. The fact that Patton would cause trouble with the Allies. Marshall was able to put his own ego in check and say Patton's the best fighter we have. So we're going to use him when we need to. And even if that means having uncomfortable comfortable conversations with the Navy or uncomfortable conversations with the President of the United States or with the British, Marshall was able to do that and keep one of his best fighters doing what he

The Knutsford Affair And Overlord

SPEAKER_00 9:50

did best.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Let's look at the Knutsford Affair as this in miniature. How does that read when Marshall is placed at the center of trying to manage something that Patton has done instead of just Patton being Patton?

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Well, the Knutsford Affair in many ways was a much to do about nothing. In fact, Patton, if you read his quotes, they're pretty bland. Yeah. And Patton was also assured by the people that put the small speech and the event he did there. He was assured repeatedly that there was no reporters there and that any of his comments would be off the record. So it was a, in many ways, a affair, a difficult kind of thing for Marshall that neither Patton nor Eisenhower nor Marshall anticipated. But it blew up anyway. The press took it and ran with it. Americans thought that we were insulting the Russians. They thought we were planning to dominate the world after World War II. And, you know, it seemed to go against kind of the story Americans told themselves that we were going to defeat the Nazis and come home and make the world safe again. So the broader affair was a surprise for Marshall, a surprise for Marshall and Patton, but it was a problem nevertheless. Marshall's approach is to kind of remain above the fight and be as careful and logical and hands-off as possible. So he he knew that that Dwight Eisenhower was kind of in the middle of this. Eisenhower by this time was thoroughly disgusted with Patton, was kind of tired of dealing with kind of off-the-battlefield problems that Patton kind of kept causing for him. And Eisenhower, by all accounts, was ready to relieve Patton. Marshall is more detached. Marshall understands Patton for what he is. Patton's the best field commander the Allies have. And Marshall understands that the United States is about to invade France, and they need all the top field commanders in place for that. So Marshall stays above the fight. He tells Eisenhower that this is unfortunate. He kind of soothes Eisenhower's nerves by saying, you know, this is a problem, you know, acknowledging there's there's an issue here. But then he tells Eisenhower to do what he thinks is best, but then repeats the fact that Patton is the best military commander and gives Eisenhower the advice that, you know, unless it's such a big distraction, unless it's such a big problem that he can't trust Patton at all, that he should probably retain him because he is the most experienced and most successful American ground commander that he has. And the kind of operative word that I think ultimately convinces Eisenhower is that he should not weaken his hand prior to the overlord operation. And Eisenhower understands that. His boss makes the case that yes, this guy is a pain and cannot ever have kind of a top command because of his lack of political skill, his lack of care on these types of things. But he is the best battlefield commander you have. And unless it's going to be such a big problem, you better keep him. So Eisenhower's smart enough to realize that when your boss says you should probably keep this guy because he's your best commander, he kept him because he was his best commander. And, you know, I think it's it's fair to say Marshall's kind of intervention, Marshall's perspective on this, Marshall's soothing of Eisenhower's kind of hurt feelings saved Patton and also allowed Patton to, you know, break out in Normandy, to gobble up territory in France, to pivot 90 degrees and relieve the 101st Airborne at Bastogne, to punch deep into Germany, and be the George Patton that we think of today, and really be the most successful ground commander we had. Saving him is really important. And it, but it, but it's important to remember as well. It wasn't easy. And I think if Eisenhower would have had his way, he would have probably demoted or sent home Patton right on the eve of kind of the biggest kind of ground invasion, you know, biggest amphibious invasion and biggest ground operation in American military history. So it's a it's a really tantalizing what-if. But again, Marshall is a person that has the gravitas to be, you know, hold both of those things in in his mind at the same time. Patton is a pain in the butt, but Patton is uniquely talented as well. And that kind of being honest uh and being objective is a Marshall skill. Yes, and one that really comes to play comes into play here.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Absolutely.

Patton’s Rank Drops As Bradley Rises

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Does does Patton's standing when compared to other kind of Army and Corps commanders change during the war?

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Yes. So Patton, I mean, it's important to remember the Army worked on seniority. So Patton was able to kind of ace his job interview at the uh Louisiana and Carolina maneuvers and vault up over some of the more senior commanders. But Patton also then creates problems for himself, slapping soldiers in Sicily, creating problems with the Navy, uh, creating problems with the British. He, you know, wins on the battlefield, but kind of sabotages his own career in the kind of run-up to overlord because of those kind of problematic elements of his character. So Patton is actually kind of superseded by Omar Bradley in the kind of Allied Pecking order. And Bradley, not Patton, kind of gets the top American command for overlord. And Patton's hurt by that. But, you know, if if we think about it with kind of a little detachment and a little more historical perspective, I think Eisenhower and Marshall made the right call. Bradley is the safer choice. And using Patton as an army commander, as a third army commander, is really the best place for him. He didn't need to be working with the Navy because you needed them. He didn't need to be working with the British because you needed them. You know, giving him the job they gave him in hindsight was was exactly the right call. But Patton jumps, you know, to answer your question, to circle back to where's Patton in the peck pecking order, on the eve of the war, he he vaults ahead, despite battlefield successes in North Africa and Sicily, his own kind of volatile temper, his own imperfections make him actually recede, even though everybody knows he's an outstanding operational level uh commander.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

So you've referred to Patton and Marshall's relationship in passing. Uh there, there's the correspondence where he talks about batching it. My also also there's I I wish I wish we had the artifact. Apparently, at one point, Patton fashioned what he called a chalice for Marshall out of some oil can. It's it's in the documentation. I I wish I had more information about it because it's just bizarre. But are are there any kind of particular documents for you that kind of crystallize each man's view of one another?

SPEAKER_00 17:17

I think, again, I think the correspondence about batching it is is the perfect encapsulation of Patton looked up to Marshall. And he was a guy that didn't look up to a lot of folks, actually kind of took a jerky negative view on a lot of folks. In terms of Marshall looking at Patton, there's there's plenty of correspondence where Marshall, you know, off into Eisenhower, basically correctly views Patton as talented, but deeply flawed as well. And again, the the evidence on that is is very, very good. One other kind of story in September of 1939, when when Marshall's kind of appointment to be chief of staff, the army finally comes through. One kind of thing that he gets from Patton is eight sterling silver stars that Patton has made from a jeweler and gives them to Marshall as kind of this, you know, congratulatory thing, almost a bribe, if you will, you know, giving him this luxury item that Marshall himself probably would never have bought for himself or been able to afford. Patton does this again gleefully. And then Marshall's response is that he will wear them with the dignity and honor that the office, you know, the position entails. So Patton, again, is this kind of wealthy, pretentious, showy type person, gives these sterling silver stars to this man he idolizes. And then Marshall is flattered. But Marshall is again poised enough, restrained enough, careful enough to say, thank you. But this is not about me. This is about the dignity and power and importance of this office. And I will, you know, wear these stars, but I'll wear them and remember the importance of kind of this job I've been selected for. So I think like just even that gift encapsulates their differences.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

And and and kind of both of their geniuses in their own unique way.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Thank you. So stepping back, what does Patton look like at the end of the story if you keep Marshall in view?

Marshall’s Limits On Patton’s Future

SPEAKER_01 19:23

You've talked about what Marshall has kind of ultimately made possible for Patton. What does he also limit?

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Marshall's very clear in the run-up to Overlord that Patton will go no further than army command. And he had the support of Eisenhower, who also agreed with him on that kind of point. And Marshall's careful. You know, this is the best kind of battlefield commander I have, but he should not go any higher. And, you know, Marshall refused to, you know, after World War II is over, Marshall refused to kind of do Patton a favor and send him out to the Pacific. Marshall kind of refused to interfere with that process after the European war is over. And again, I think that is Marshall understanding Patton's genius, but also understanding his limitations and understanding that Douglas MacArthur and some of the personalities out in the Pacific wouldn't have wanted Patton there. Yeah. And also Patton's style of kind of open field maneuver warfare might not have even worked well on some of the island campaigns in the Pacific, where it was much more kind of firepower, attrition, grind them down, smash through fortifications type campaigns. I think he probably also had a sense that Patton's style of warfare just wouldn't translate there either. So Marshall promotes Patton, but he also is smart enough and astute enough to limit Patton as well. And that again, I think that speaks to Marshall's wonderful judge of character, wonderful judge of talent, and really his contribution to the American war effort in World War II is just managing people and managing tough, complex personalities in a really stressful, difficult, fluid changing

Thanks, Mission, And How To Support

SPEAKER_00 21:14

environment.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Excellent. Furman, thank you so much for sitting down and talking about Patton with us.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Well, Glenn, I've I've really been honored to be on the program. And I just want to say thank you to the George C. Marshall Foundation for all the excellent work you do, kind of keeping General Marshall's legacy and memory alive. It's really a great job that you do, and I'm happy to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Thank you for listening to Age of Marshall. To learn more about the George C. Marshall Foundation and its programs, and to support our mission, visit Marshall Foundation.org.