What does it really mean to be a disciple of Jesus? Religious Words Part 3

In this episode of the Archie & Etta Podcast, we talk about discipleship as more than church attendance, Bible knowledge, or Christian language. Biblical discipleship is a lifelong journey of following Jesus, learning His ways, obeying His Word, becoming more like Him, and helping others do the same.

Jesus did not simply call people to believe ideas about Him. He said, “Follow Me.” That call touches our habits, relationships, decisions, priorities, family, work, and everyday obedience.

We discuss the cost of discipleship, the fruit of a life surrendered to Christ, and the importance of walking with others as we grow. Discipleship is not about perfection, but it is about formation.

In this episode, we discuss:
What the Bible says discipleship means
The difference between believing and following
Why obedience matters in spiritual growth
How discipleship forms our character and choices
The role of relationship, accountability, and multiplication
How to follow Jesus in everyday life

Key Scriptures:
Matthew 28:18–20
Luke 9:23
John 8:31–32
John 13:34–35
John 15:8
2 Timothy 2:2

Discipleship is not just learning about Jesus. It is learning to live like Him.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome to the Archie and Edda Podcast, where real conversations meet biblical truth, where husband and wife talk through faith, life, marriage, calling, and culture through the lens of God's word. Pull up a chair. Let's grow together. All right, welcome back to the Archie and Edda Podcast. Today we're getting into another really easy topic: discipleship. Costs you nothing, is totally free of, no, I'm just being incredibly facetious. Uh but yeah, we want to dig into discipleship. Um, this continuing our series on religious words and breaking those down and kind of pulling out what do we really need to understand. What do what does the Bible say about those things? What does God think about them? Um, so good morning.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Good morning.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

I like her. Okay, so discipleship. Um, I got a bunch of notes and scriptures here, but um, before we kind of dig deep in, um, let's set some cultural, Christian cultural context um to discipleship. So what do you normally think of, or what did you used to think of like in our culture childhood? Like what did discipleship mean at that time, or just at the surface level religious word?

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Are we going back to flannel graph times?

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Apparently.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Well, when I was a kid, I thought that disciples only meant the original 12 disciples.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

I didn't know that I could also be a disciple. Like it was almost like cessationism, but instead of the Holy Spirit is done, personal formation was done.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Discipleship has concluded with the 12 and their deaths.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Yes, that's what I thought as a kid. I never made the connection that I too was supposed to go on a similar faith journey as the disciples in the Bible to become like Christ. Like I knew I needed to be like Christ. Like I'd read the Beatitudes, but I didn't connect it to the word disciple, discipleship. I think I probably was in college before I realized.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Yeah. There is something funny there because we in in church, you know, churches love to talk about discipleship and discipleship groups, and there's a lot of different ways the word gets used, but it's not really assigned to people to say, like, oh, disciple Chuck. You know, like it's just it's not a thing. We're like, oh, who's discipling you? Like, that's almost a little more, it's more like someone being like, I had the pleasure of being discipled by. I feel like it might get used that way sometimes, but it's still incredibly rare.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Not in the circles I was running in.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Yeah. Interesting. Because I usually talk about like my mentors or leaders I knew, people who poured into me. I don't necessarily say I was discipled by, but I was.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Well, I think I know why that happened.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

But it's gonna be like boring theology.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Um, I think that we're here for that a little bit, just a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

So I grew up in the Bible belt of our state, Michigan, which is the Grand Rapids area, which is predominantly Christian Reformed, and that denomination is um built upon the theology of John Calvin.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

And one of his major like points that he makes is predestination.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

So does that mean like you put the GPS in before you go somewhere so you know where you're heading? What is it?

SPEAKER_01 4:14

We'd probably be in a better position if that is what it meant.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

So, what's predestination mean?

SPEAKER_01 4:20

To boil it down in like an oversimplified way, it basically means that you are predestined to be saved or not saved, predestined to be a child of God or not. And that's all decided before time began. So they don't have a strong emphasis on evangelism, discipleship, any of those kinds of things because it's already predestined. You either are or you aren't.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

And like you become a Christian, like you're born into the society, so then you're basically a Christian just because you're there. But there's no like personal responsibility for what happens because if you're in the club, it's a bit of a crapshoot because nobody actually knows if they're in or out. You don't know till you die and you're in heaven or you're not. So I think that's why there wasn't an emphasis in my childhood, even though I didn't belong to a Christian reformed church, that was the culture. And most of the people at my Pentecostal church grew up in a reformed church, so they were kind of like closet reformed people playing at charismatic. That's my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

Um, it is really tempting not to go down this whole free will rabbit hole and like oh my gosh. Okay, I'm stopping myself. Um, so interesting thing I feel like is worth noting. Um, Calvin actually had a lot of good things to say.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

He did.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Some really good stuff, but then he had this one idea. Yeah. Brilliant, beautiful stuff. Um, but then this one thing that he said that got taken and really, really held on to is that what you just explained.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Yeah, he's got a few pet ideas that kind of get weedy.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

Yeah. I I sometimes wonder, and granted, I have not read Calvin enough to know exactly what he thought, or to to, I think, form a good stance on where he was, but uh some of the things I think about is like, what if someone's like, hey, wouldn't it be funny if this is what happened or this is how it was, and you just it just decided, then everyone's like, you know what, let's build a religion around that. He's like, guys, I didn't mean it. Like, I just thought it was funny. We're just sitting around having a chat, and they're like, No, we have no free will, isn't it great?

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Calvin meant it though.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Yeah, okay. I figured they did, but I'm just like, it occurred to me like how many things were like that through history, which is why I've become recently incredibly fascinated with more and more about history. Anyway, um, even so American history. So back to discipleship. Um I I think that it's an easy thing for us to put a religious word on and kind of stick it on the shelf because discipleship is not an easy thing, it's a vulnerable thing on both parts. So you have someone discipling someone and you have someone being discipled, and both of those things take time. Yeah, both of those things take like graciousness and love and like and just a desire to actually sit with, right? Um I wrote a poem about that a couple days ago, but I wasn't planning to read the poem today. Um, I don't have it up or anything, but um so I'm just gonna go to the source of what people probably mostly think about when they think of what does the Bible say about discipleship? And they go to Jesus in Matthew 28, 18, go therefore and make disciples of all the nations.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

The Great Commission.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

The Great Commission. And and this is like Jesus making it pretty clear this isn't really an optional thing. This is like, hey, I need you to go and do it.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

This is kind of the point of all of it.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

It's okay, why is it the point of all of it?

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Because I think for Jesus, the people are the point.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Because it says in was it Hebrews 7 that he ever lives to make intercession, that none should be lost. Like what he's done since he ascended to the right hand of God in the throne room of heaven is pray for us down here that we might be saved, that we might, that his prayer in John 17 before he went to the cross, repeatedly, in different ways of phrasing it, he basically is saying, I just want you to be where I am. He just wants a restoration of the relationship and closeness that Adam and Eve had in the garden with God. But he wants it with everybody, and that that was the joy set before him to go to the cross and endure everything was to save the people, yeah, that the people might be where he is, and that he could be with us and we could be with him, and so to go and make disciples is to partner with the desire of Jesus and to partner with the point of why he came and did everything that he did and working towards reaching people and and loving people and doing all the things that Jesus taught us to do to restore people to their right mind, their right identity, and their right relationship with God and a right understanding of the identity and character of God. Like so much of the Bible is circled around that dynamic, that's the point.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

It's almost like if you reframed what Calvin was thinking, and you just said God's intention is for everyone to be saved instead of it's just pre-chosen for you, it's that he chooses everyone, he wants everyone.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Right. He he chooses everyone. It's whether we choose him back or not.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Yeah. It's almost like it's not love if it's forced.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

And there has to be in God's design of wanting to love us, deciding to love us, and wanting us to love him back, like any relationship, it takes both sides for it to really be good. And you have to both want that. And so if God had done predestination, as John Calvin thought of, then we would like it would have been so cheap and it wouldn't have been real. It would have just been sort of meaningless. But this isn't really the point that we were trying to get to. Um but discipleship does take two.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah, it's kind of like I I I think of discipleship uh it only actually works through relationship between people.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

So in a way, it's kind of like you know, physical therapy. You like practice doing motion motion and mobility things to regain that strength and that muscle group or whatever got weakened or damaged. Like, but it's physical therapy for the heart and for your ability and muscle memory to be in relationship with someone, and it's like practicing with this person who has a certain level of maturity, a certain level of history of walking with God. It's like learning to be in right relationship with this person, then you can practice and recognize how to grow your own history, maturity with God, and learn to be in right relationship with God.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

For yourself, but it's really it's really hard for some people to like do that with an unseen God. So you just start with the person, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

And I mean, I would also add that Jesus doesn't say go and be discipled by the Holy Spirit and God alone. Like He designed us for community to like actually speak like God to speak through other people into our lives too. And I think there's an important piece there, yeah, regardless of your maturity or your prayer life, which I feel like is probably an important part of discipleship, but uh there is a need for there to be people.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Yeah. Well, I think just like in prophecy, like we have prophecy in part. And if you have a bunch of people who are all getting a prophetic piece that then come together and find the whole message from God, like I've been in prayer meetings like that, yeah, where everyone has what they feel like is this random piece, but then when they all share what they feel like God's saying for that prayer meeting, it's a whole message, it's a whole purpose. All the pieces come together to make the whole. And Paul teaches that pretty clearly in a couple of his epistles that we're the body of Christ, we're all the pieces and parts that make a whole. And I think there's an emphasis on community because like in the garden, we had right relationship with God, we had right relationship with ourselves, and we had right relationship with each other.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

So you can't actually have full restoration to how we were created to be without a restoration of community, of relationship with each other. So that's why it doesn't work by yourself.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

And even God isn't by himself, he's Trinity, He's triune, three persons in one.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

He's in everlasting community with himself, and we're invited into that beloved dance and beloved identity.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

In in your studies, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he's um obviously he's the one true God, the three in one trinity. But I don't know that there's any other religions that make an assertion of uh other than weird stuff, of trying to have not that the trinity isn't a mystery and it's a mystery and hard to uh fully grasp, um nonetheless use in appropriate language when you're referencing different parts of the trinity and our linguistics in English. That's a whole nother thing. Um, but I don't think there's other religions that have the same concept of a a God who is relational, like a three and one. Not that it's important.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

I haven't done a deep dive study in ancient religions.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

Yeah. I've done it's usually one, or it's like there's 20 different ones.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

I took a course on world religions where it's just sort of like an overview of the current religions 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_03 16:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

And from that study, there wasn't one that was exactly the same. Three and one. There was a lot of um, you know, multiple separate deities that weren't one. Yeah. Or there was sort of like a everything is god.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The universalist um perspective of there's everything.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Some universalists are more like Hindu, though, where all the specific gods are leading to the same place.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

So I don't know if universalist is exactly the right term, but yeah, it's just sort of this idea of everything is God.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

Instead of one gate, which is a narrow gate, which is Jesus who was um fully God and fully man, who is crucified and dead and rose from the dead in three days, which is this is the narrow gate. This is the one path. Yeah. They're like lots of gates, lots of paths, doors, really wide.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

I wouldn't even say that it was gates. I would just say it's sort of a vague energy.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

There's no borders. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

It's kind of more like being absorbed into this energy.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

This being absorbed doesn't sound enjoyable.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

There's no sp there's either hyper-specificity or there's no specificity. As far as I know, it's pretty much the Christian God is the only one claiming to be everything, omniscient, um omnipresent.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

That's what I was trying to go.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Omnipotent. And also personal.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Where he he's holding that paradox, that paradox of both sides of the extreme and saying, Yeah, I meant.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Yeah. These are all things you can learn in discipleship.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Um, so I want to I want to bring us back slightly over there, even while this is a fascinating uh divergence.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

So you still haven't got to discipleship.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

We're still working on that one. We're setting the terms, we're attempting to disciple ourselves. Um, so I think part of what makes us hesitant to to really live within any kind of discipleship model is the cost. And I think there's probably been some plenty of good writings about this, and this may even just be a book title. Um, the cost of counting the cost of discipleship, cost of discipleship, whatever you want to put it. Um, but Luke 14, 26 says, Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. Um and uh oh yeah, this one hits a little bit harder, too. So Matthew 10, 38, whoever does not take his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me. Um so I think that there is an element here of you really have to take some ownership of your discipleship. Um and Jesus is like uh pretty clear in those couple of passages from the gospels. Um but if you're if uh if you're not willing to die to yourself, to your flesh, um, and to your your own desires, and you're not willing to to do that thing, then you really can't humble yourself enough to receive everything God has for you in maturity. And I probably just said things like way too much and way too far. But what do you think of when you think of like the cost of discipleship?

SPEAKER_01 20:25

The daily cross.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

That's a good example.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

I'm just wanting to make sure I'm talking about the same page or talking about anything with the cost of discipleship.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

The daily cross is a big, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Discipleship is one of those things where it's kind of like what you were saying earlier, where it's like we need to be discipled, but we also need to be discipling. And I see the cross touching both of those aspects because on the one hand, it's like you said, I need to die daily to my flesh, my agenda, my plan, my my my my. Yeah. That needs to go and be replaced with what's the father doing because Jesus was only doing what the father was doing, he was only saying what the father was saying.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

So there's that aspect where I have to put all of it's not my will be done, right? My kingdom, it's thy will be done. Though it's the father. So I have to die to that on the one hand, on the other hand, I have to be willing to make space for other people to have grace for the mess that comes and the inconvenience that comes with other people. Um and to show Christ's love.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

To someone, however that's playing out, whether we're in relationship, they're kind of betraying, kind of using kind of you know, shady relationship dynamics. But if I'm committed to discipling this person, then I need to show love. I need to show forgiveness. It's my moment to be like Hosea. Or or if it's just someone who like is completely unmotivated and just sort of wants the status of saying, Oh, I'm meeting with this person.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

I don't know if you've heard, but I've got a lot of disciples.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

I'm being discipled by this person.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

Kind of a kind of a big discipler these days. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

Not saying that anyone has status being discipled by me, but some young people are like that. They're like, oh, I'm in close proximity to this person.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Oh, they do it for status. Specific people.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Oh, for it for status.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

But they're not doing the work.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

And so then it's like, then you're like Paul, who's continually in the pangs of childbirth until I think was it? No, it was Corinthians. The church of Corinth was in maturity. He said that in one of his letters. Like, you won't just mature. So I have to continually be in the labor.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

That's why he had to explain love to them.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Right. So then that's my Paul moment. Yeah. As a discipler. So, like, that's uncomfortable. That's costly. That's forcing me to step into greater measure of maturity. And like, okay, Lord, how would you do this?

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

To show your love, but also to like challenge what needs to be challenged in love. Because that also is tough, at least for me. Like, I can see what the problem is, and I can say what needs to be said in a really harsh, unloving way. If I'm just gonna do it as Edda.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

Well, most people could.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Most people could. I have to go to the Lord and be like, how do I say this in a loving way that will engage what needs to be engaged inside this person? Right. So that they receive it. They receive it and then can grow and mature and change if they need to change.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

And that sort of thing. So that that to me is a daily cross. Because it would be so much easier to not be in relationship and not have to deal with any of that.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

And just focused on me.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

And that does it is a secret and other me, my moment.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

Yeah. There's a there's something that I I think is probably a really helpful mental framework that occurred to me while you're explaining that. So Jesus said, go and make disciples of all nations. He didn't say go and be discipled your whole life only. Right. And and I think some people um in in their you know early times with the Lord, or or just maybe like haven't done that much work yet, or that much like search my heart, oh God, and find any unclean way in me. Like, God, really work on me. And if if you're early in that process, like um hear my heart towards you, it's beautiful, but it's it's there's a lot, it's hard. There's there's things in us. So to bring this back to what I was trying to say, I think the beautiful thing is Jesus' intention for us and how he said that is you should be discipling others. He doesn't say, go and get everything perfect, and then you can disciple other people. Right. And I learned, I learned this um as a as a young man um teaching martial arts, that whenever you get to the point where you are teaching or some type of coaching or leading other people, you have to understand to a greater measure, you get there because of necessity, whatever it is, the topic, whatever you're doing. And I think there's a higher responsibility and an awareness and a built-in maturity in you that comes when you go, if I'm gonna be discipling someone else, I better figure this thing out. I've got to figure out my this temptation.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

What if they struggle with this? What am I gonna talk to them about if I'm not facing this thing?

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

And we get this idea of I think part of it maybe is this Western consumerism where we go, I just want to consume being discipled, and I'm gonna listen to sermons online, and you can get good stuff from those. But but if no one's gonna challenge you to actually go and then do some discipling, you can sit in this comfort zone of just receiving and not doing the harder thing, which is then pouring out of yourself to someone else. But if we have the goal of being disciplers, that puts us at another bar of what I'm trying to do. And maybe it's like having that purpose or that vision, but um, but that pulls you up as opposed to feeling like I can just stay and consume being discipled. Right. Um, and anyone who's discipled others for a period of time would get to a point where they're like, look, we gotta kick you out of the bird's nest here. I think you're ready to fly, you know, like Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

A video isn't ever going to directly look at you and look at your life and challenge you. You can get a good word from the Lord, but I think that trying to be discipled by YouTube, like it can be a great starting point. I should say staying discipled by YouTube because it's it's a good starting point. But if you stay in that place of being discipled by YouTube, it is the equivalent of the young person who wanted to be having the status of being discipled by somebody. Right. It's the same thing of well, I'm following this church, I'm following this teacher, but I follow Paul.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

I follow Cephas.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Right, but they're never they're it's not doing the work necessarily. It's getting the feels from a good idea or a or the feels from like a moment of unction from the Holy Spirit. Or it one of my friends who's a teacher, he'll he'll say, I can show up and not the knock the funk off of you for two weeks, but unless you own this for yourself, yeah, everything's gonna go go back to the way it was.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

So you can go to YouTube and have the funk knocked off for a couple of weeks, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

But you have to at some point own it. You have to some point start embodying it. And it's like you said, part of how Jesus set it up is to be in relationship. It doesn't fully work unless you're doing it with people who challenge you.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Whether you're being challenged from someone who's uh discipling you, or whether you're being challenged because you're having to disciple somebody and you have to figure out how to disciple them where they're at.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

And have authority in the areas that they're struggling, like you were saying, like you you have to wrestle stuff out so you have authority in that area.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Yeah. Um while you can get really good things from YouTube, this coming from from YouTube also we're broadcasting there.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

It's a good it's a good starting point.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

It it's it's a it is a helpful thing to feed your mind and put yourself into an environment where you're in a good space if you're you know, if you're consuming this type of content. Um and hopefully it's challenging. Um, so I think I was getting a little bit into the next thing that I was thinking about, which is just learning from Jesus and like trying to understand what is the goal of discipleship. And so I think I probably just very excitedly got into that a little bit, but the goal of discipleship is to then be discipler. But um, but Luke 6, 40 is a helpful piece here. It says, a student is not above the teacher, but everyone, when he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher. And that is really just to get into the thing that discipleship is really simply yet again boiled down to be more like Jesus. Yeah. To be more like how he was, how he taught, how we, you know, we have the gospel of seeing what he was like when he walked on earth. Um, obviously, um, he still is, he just is at the right hand of the Father. Uh, but the interesting thing is if you think of the student becoming like a teacher, that makes a pretty pretty simple analogy. It's not that hard to grasp. The goal is for everyone to become a teacher. Now you don't need to become some, you know, like public speaker or anything. The goal is not the platform, it's not a platform. It it can be the the highest you ever go as a discipler can just be a one-on-one conversation with someone that you have a relationship with.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Well, I think that's why Paul uses the parent analogy in the Corinthians because for him it wasn't a platform. For him, it was the people that he was pouring his life into, his heart and soul, his love. Um and there is nothing like parenthood. There's like I can't think of any other experience or relationship that is like being a parent in the way that it pushes you to grow and change, in the way that it forces you into maturity, kind of like you were saying with the taekwondo, it forced you into a new level of knowing and understanding that craft in order to explain it and teach it. Like being a parent forces you into a level of maturity and selflessness, unlike anything else in this world. And I think there is a parallel in discipleship that if you are doing it wholeheartedly wholeheartedly, if you're doing it at a daily cross level, it's gonna push you into a level of maturity, unlike if we were just like you were saying, living that consumer taking in and never giving out place. And there's things about Jesus you'll never learn unless you step into that.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Into that teacher stance or that that teacher position and I mean if you want to know the life hack to speed ramping your spiritual maturity, try to be a teacher, try to be discipling someone, and you will be quickly confronted with a lot of things.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Well, because to reach people, you have to meet them where they're at. Yeah, you can't ask them to come to where you're at and then start. You have to be humble enough, gracious enough, all those things you're seeing at first, yeah, in order to meet someone where they're at, and build that trust, build that rapport, show that love in order to get to a place where you can challenge somebody and they know you're saying it out of love, and they're not just feeling attacked. And and you can explain things in such a way for this person because there's relationship that they're gonna understand what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

And it's not just gonna go over their head, or it's not just gonna turn into this like internal shame condemnation because they think, oh, I should be getting this, but I don't.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

There has to be some some degree of that person to want to receive to be in a discipleship relationship. Because if they don't want it, then it then it's nothing you can say. Then we're just talking like, you know, it's they have to have a hunker.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Yeah, they have to have a hunger to the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Otherwise, it's like the Lord sending a prophet to David with an analogy to tell him that he messed up, which is not the kind of thing you want to be in. That's not discipleship. That's like, hey, we had to send a prophet because you're getting off track. Right. That's a whole nother thing. That yeah. Um I I wanted to go and touch on this a little bit. Um, so the I think that the final part of what I wanted to be able to say to you is going back to like God's intentions and like the full purpose of discipleship, um, and boiling that down. And Colossians 1 28 says, We proclaim him so that we may present every person complete in Christ. And I think that there is this end goal of completeness, wholeness, like receiving fully what God wants to give you. He he's the good, he's the father of lights who gives good gifts and he wants to fully bless you, and he wants you to live life more abundantly. Now, his idea of abundantly, not our idea of I would like cash flowing like rivers. Um, and and uh, you know, wealth is a thing that is a tool by itself. Um, so the abundance is like so much more about the relationships, like being rich in abundance of other things. Anyway, so this that is not where I was trying to go. The maturity in Christ is like receiving your full inheritance, receiving his gifts, because you also are giving with those things. You are blessing others because you have been given, and you take that on in a different way, and you see yourself um not as you know a gift to the world, but someone who is giving what God has given you. Yeah, an overflow.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

The Abrahamic blessed to be a blessing.

SPEAKER_02 36:49

Yeah, and I got too many songs in my head now.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

I think too, with that Jesus has to be your reward. Because you can sit some with someone for years, decades even, and they could never get it, or they could just be stuck at a certain level because that's they're choosing to stay. And if God is asking you to still walk with that person, then you still have to show them love and have the same circular conversations as they go through their cycles of what they're stuck in. Like that cannot be your reward.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Jesus still has to be your reward, and that's true in parenting as well.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

What does what does it look like for Jesus to be your reward?

SPEAKER_01 37:42

I think that it's falling so in love with him that he that you receive him in such a way that it fills that desperate place inside of you. So you know, if somebody is chasing fame and fortune, because it they have a hole inside of them that they think this will fill that hole, this will solve that problem inside of me, and they chase it and chase it, and a lot of people have attained it and said it didn't fill a hole.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

And so you have to chase Jesus and allow him to fill that desperate hole inside of you, whatever caused it, whatever trauma, whatever lie, whatever you know, thing that you know, there's so much language around all have sinned and fall short of the glory we all need. Everybody has a desperate place inside of them that they are trying to fill through various mediums and statuses and all the things. But if you can get to a place where Jesus is filling that hole, then I'm not discipling, I'm not giving to this person I'm discipling just to get a fix and a hit for that hole.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

I'm giving freely because this is already settled. Yeah. I think that's why there's this really great book I read a few years back called Discipleship Begins with Beholding, and I'm completely panic blanking on the author's name. It's right there. I know I know it, but I can't think of it under pressure.

SPEAKER_03 39:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Um, but he's he's kind of saying that. Like we have we are discipled and we and we give discipleship from this place of beholding Jesus first, of getting our needs met in Jesus first, yeah, of becoming like him first. Because the whole book centers around I think it's 2 Corinthians 3. I'd have to go back and check. I get the two books confused because I read them too much. And uh all I can remember is Corinthians.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

It's not in my notes, so I can tell you.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

It says we behold as in a mirror dimly um the likeness of Jesus, and we are being transformed day by day into his image. So it it it all kind of that book centers around that verse of it's the daily habit of just looking at him, yeah. Making eye contact spirit to spirit with him. That he is it's it's it's kind of like Jesus was seeing what the father was doing. We need to see what Jesus is doing because he's only doing what the father's doing. So we behold Jesus, and that's our starting point, that's our frame of reference, that's our true north, as some like to say.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

And we disciple from there, we give from there because we've already received from there.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

And that's who we're being transformed into, and that's who we're leading others to also be transformed into.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

Yeah. And I think it does, it goes back to becoming like the teacher. Um okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Uh if you have your phone, you need to look up that author's name because I can't handle it. But I forgot, because I know I know it.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Let the people know.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

He like guest taught on a course I took and everything.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

What was it?

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Discipleship begins with beholding.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

Discipleship begins with beholding by Samuel Whitefield.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

Samuel Whitefield.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

It's got like a burning tree on the cover.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Yes, it's the burning bush.

SPEAKER_02 42:07

Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

So get that book. It's a good book. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

Um, okay, I had one more, and then I had a I had a fun way to wrap up later. A little bit. Um this, I was thinking about this. Uh, if I try and put us in the context of what it looked like when Jesus discipled the disciples. So a little bit on the nose. Right. But um I remember this old clip, and we don't need to go into all the all the funniness, and the probably 20-something years ago when this came out. Um, but it did a really good job of giving the context of what discipleship looked like in the day when Jesus was walking around, just walking everywhere with the disciples. And it was the thing that Jewish rabbis did where if you were being discipled, you were actually walking with them. And you and one of the goals or this like beautiful idea was that you would be very dusty because you were so covered by the dust of your rabbis.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

The dust of the rabbi, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:18

Yeah, because you're walking.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

Because you're walking so closely behind him that the dust coming off of his shoes is is resting on you.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

So if you were all dusty, that meant you were you were doing some work of being discipled, you know. Anyway, um, so I I had this question framed up, which was, you know, Jesus says, follow me. And that's so much of what the disciples did was follow Jesus as they walked around to different places. But like, you know, what does that look like for us in life beyond just, you know, um, it's great to go to church, and we're not even getting into that today. But that is only one good thing that's not the whole Christian life. So much of that happens outside of church and in the quiet place and in your personal time with God, in discipleship relationships, in fellowship. But anyway, so outside of church, church attendance, um, what does follow me when Jesus says follow me? What does that really look like?

SPEAKER_01 44:24

You're saying what does it look like to be covered in the dust of the rabbi?

SPEAKER_02 44:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

Well, I think that goes back to the beholding.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

Because if you're gonna follow somebody, you have to be watching them to see where they're going. I think that looks like having a relationship with Holy Spirit where you're in conversation and you're asking him, What are we doing today?

SPEAKER_03 44:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Which I'm not great about doing that every day because I get caught up in all of the mom things that I know has to be done this day or that day.

SPEAKER_03 45:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Which to some extent, like I know the Lord wants to be me to be in this season of motherhood, so that's what I need to do.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Um, but it won't always be so clear when the kids grow up. But when I was younger, I did ask pretty regularly, what should I be doing? Yeah. Who should I be talking to? I think it's reading the Bible because that is the Lord revealing himself to us through story. And he's not gonna contradict who he is in the Bible. So if we read the Bible, then we know how to recognize him in our current setting. Yeah. It's like people say they people who are looking for counterfeit money only study real money. So if we're going through the world and we want to be able to recognize counterfeit gospel, counterfeit rabbi, we need to be studying the real deal, which is the Bible, first and foremost. Um I think it means walking in relationship with somebody who is a little further down the road than you. So it's being discipled by somebody.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

It's all it takes is them to be a couple steps ahead.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

You don't have to have the full- Yeah, I don't think it even necessarily has anything to do with age.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Um and hopefully, I mean, this isn't always possible, but hopefully being in a relationship with them where they know you and they can challenge you if need be.

SPEAKER_02 46:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

I mean, how many times have we searched for a mentor, spiritual father, spiritual mother, in bed and met with one awkward coffee or just straight up no? So yeah. It I'm not saying like okay, sometimes it's hard, and that's why I say YouTube is a good starting place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a great starting place for me. YouTube books, quality books. I have been challenged by more than one book. And I think that that can be Holy Spirit-led. So that goes back to talking to Holy Spirit and saying, What should I be reading? What should I be watching? Who should I be listening to? And for me, a lot of those YouTube teachers and books led me into a community where I am in relationship personally with people, being discipled. Um, and I think that having the dust of the rabbi means looking at yourself and like owning where you're wrong and doing something about it.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

Owning where there's fear still, owning where there's pride still.

SPEAKER_02 48:01

Because if you don't own it, you're not gonna keep following the rabbi and getting the dust on you. You're just gonna stop and go sit somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Or lag behind.

SPEAKER_02 48:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

Where it's not as noticeable that I haven't dealt with this or that.

SPEAKER_02 48:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

Well I'm gonna do it. I'm still kind of following.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

About a mile back, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

I mean, that that's a Judas status.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

He was in the group. That's just you're throwing some spice on there.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

He's in the group, but he wasn't owning his stuff. He did not subscribe. It got him in the end. He did not know much about we don't know much about his internal life, but we know enough to know that he betrayed Jesus in the end.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

So I think it's looking at Jesus, being in relationship and conversation with Holy Spirit, reading the word, knowing the word, having the word in you to a point where it comes out of you. Right. Especially under stress.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

Yeah. Um what's what's coming out when when the pressurization comes?

SPEAKER_01 49:07

Especially in these days. Lots of pressure, lots of shaking.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

There's not much coasting these days. So it's it's doing that. I think it's seeking out being discipled. Because we have blind spots, and being in relationship is a good way to have those blind spots revealed.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

I think I think too, it is seeking out to be a discipler. Like like you said, you don't have to have everything perfect.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

To walk with someone. You just have to be a couple steps ahead and give what you have.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

And it it takes it also takes a decent measure of courage to put yourself out there to say, I can disciple.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

And I'm I'm not saying go around and like be a creeper at a youth group and say, Oh, I want to disciple you.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

Who needs a disciple?

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Like, I think it's uh noticing the young people around you, noticing the new creep Christians around you who are already in your circle and being like, hey, let's get coffee. Hey, can I talk? Let's talk. Right, let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 50:18

Whether you put official terms on it.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

You don't have to.

SPEAKER_02 50:20

Yeah, that's so unofficial discipleship. Um I think I've had two relationships.

SPEAKER_01 50:26

Where we put a title on it. Right. But I've discipled a good number of people unofficially just through relationship. And that's I I for me it like that is sort of the core of understanding discipleship, whether you're receiving or giving.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Because to be discipled by the Lord is to be in relationship with Him.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

I just I just thought of like just a really great little Christian meme when you were talking about that. All right. Don't be like a creeper and go around to uh to youth groups. And I just had a I I had a graphic of it's just a dude in a white van and he slings open the door and he goes, I got discipleship in the van, anyone wants some? And everyone's like, No.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

Too far.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

No thanks.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

You've gone too far.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

No, I know that it's too far. The point is, it's not gonna get anyone in the van. It's not candy. It's yeah. They're like, yeah, no, we don't want that. And like, that's why no one does it anyway. Yeah. So that was not ex at all what I wanted to do. Uh but this is this is the sense of humor that the Lord gave me.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

We don't have the same sense of humor.

SPEAKER_02 51:35

He can beat it out of me if he so chooses. Um, so um, I think that we've covered a lot of beautiful things today, and I want to end in a very romantic fashion, and I am going to read the poem that I wrote of course you were about discipleship.

SPEAKER_01 51:49

You weren't gonna put that out there without paying it off. I know you.

SPEAKER_02 51:53

Here's the payoff. Okay, so this is called The Path Between Us. We walked where summer had filled the woods with green so deep it felt like prayer, where fern and cedar, root and stone kept silence older than our names. You asked no question all at once, I gave no answer like a map. The trail bent slowly through the shade, and wisdom came by walking back. Beside each other, step by step, past birch bark pale as folded notes, past dragonflies above the creek, past wild grapes climbing toward the light. This is the tender work of faith, not pulling hard, not standing still, but learning how to keep a pace, and let another soul become. I pointed once toward poison leaves, once toward a break where sunlight fell, but mostly let the forest teach what sermons sometimes cannot tell. That roots hold firm beneath the moss, that storms make room for younger trees, that every branch that reaches up began in dark, unseen belief. And when the path grew narrow there, where bramble leaned and shadows crossed, we did not hurry through the fear, we named the thorns, we bore the cost. For walking with another heart is holy ground and heavy grace, to guard the flame without owning it, to bless the road, but not replace. The voice that calls beyond our own, the shepherd hidden in the leaves, whose mercy moves through common things, through dust, through breath, through you, through me. By dusk our shoes were dark with earth, the woods were ringing soft and low. You had not become my echo there, I had not told you where to go. But something sacred walked with us, as real as pine sap, sweat and sky, one life beside another life, learning the narrow way by light. Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

We still gotta pray.

SPEAKER_02 53:58

And I will now remember to pray because I'm being discipled by my wife.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

I could pray. Why don't you pray? Yeah, Father, thank you for today. Thank you for this time, this conversation, and hope that it clarified some questions for people. I hope that it showed them the ways to the first steps to be in discipleship and also to give it. I thank you for your word and that revelation that you give us through your word. Thank you for your Holy Spirit that brings your word to life, that engages with our spirit and introduces us to Jesus. I just ask for a spirit of revelation to be given out to those listening and those who will listen, and that it would reveal Jesus to them in greater measure so that they can behold you and start their discipleship through beholding you and falling in love with you and pursuing you and finding wholeness along the way. Speak blessing over those who are listening. And yeah, just blessing and peace. Amen. Discipleship.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

We did it. At least we got it started. Yeah. Thanks for listening to the Archie and Edda podcast. We hope this conversation encouraged your faith, challenged your thinking, and pointed you back to God's word. Until next time, keep walking with Jesus, keep loving well, and keep leaning in to what God is speaking.