Don’t Judge Me? What The Bible Says

In this episode of the Archie & Etta Podcast, we talk about judgment, discernment, correction, and the heart posture Jesus calls us to have.

Many people quote, “Do not judge,” but what does the Bible actually mean by that? Scripture does not call us to ignore sin, avoid truth, or pretend everything is right. But it does warn us against hypocrisy, condemnation, pride, and sitting in a seat that only belongs to God.

We unpack the difference between biblical discernment and being judgmental, why Jesus tells us to deal with the log in our own eye first, and how believers can address truth with humility, love, and restoration instead of shame or self-righteousness.

This conversation is about learning to judge rightly without becoming harsh, to discern wisely without becoming prideful, and to remember that every one of us will give an account before God.

In this episode, we discuss what Jesus meant when He said, “Do not judge,” the difference between correction and condemnation, why heart posture matters, how to confront with gentleness, and what it means to leave the final judgment in God’s hands.

Key Scriptures:

Matthew 7:1–2
“Do not judge, so that you will not be judged.”
“For in the way you judge, you will be judged…” 

Matthew 7:3–5
“First take the log out of your own eye…”

John 7:24
“Do not judge by the outward appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

James 4:11–12
“There is only one Lawgiver and Judge…”
“But who are you, judging your neighbor?” 

Romans 14:10–12
“For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.”
“So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.”

2 Corinthians 5:10
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ…”

Hebrews 9:27
“It is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment.”

Ecclesiastes 12:14
“For God will bring every act to judgment…”

Matthew 12:36–37
“Every careless word that people speak, they will give an account of it…”

1 Peter 4:17
“For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God…”

1 Corinthians 5:12–13
“Do you not judge those who are within the church?”
“But those who are outside, God judges.”

Galatians 6:1
“Restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness…”

Luke 6:37
“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn…”

Romans 2:1
“You are without excuse… for you who judge practice the same things.”

1 Samuel 16:7
“God does not see as man sees… the Lord looks at the heart.”

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:04

Welcome to the Archie and Edda Podcast, where real conversations meet biblical truth, where husband and wife talk through faith, life, marriage, calling, and culture through the lens of God's word. Pull up a chair, let's grow together. Welcome to Up North. And I think we switched sides.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_04 0:29

So that's new. Uh but today we wanted to talk about a topic that uh I've heard both ways. So today we're talking about judgment, which is a little funny because we're coming to you from this beautiful place that's really special to me. Um this is uh the cabin that's in our family um that was my grandpa's house that's on Lake Huron, and it's absolutely lovely up here, and it's our yearly retreat. And we decided to talk about judgment. But I think it's gonna be fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

We always have fun.

SPEAKER_04 1:23

We're arching at a yet another good point. I can't I can't argue with you. Um I didn't think too much about where we would start with judgment, but I think what we normally do is we we go to a definition. So let's actually do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Yeah, we either pull up the uh actu technical actual definition or just like our misconceptions from growing up in church. Do you want to start with a misconception? It's tough because I think the word gets weaponized a lot. And I mean it used to manipulate others a lot.

SPEAKER_04 2:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

So it in my childhood anyway, it kind of depended on which warhead was being aimed, which meaning was being implied.

SPEAKER_04 2:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

So it's tough to just pick one.

SPEAKER_04 2:24

Yeah. Well, let's go to the definition then.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:30

Judgment. A noun. Sounds like no, I'm just kidding. Uh so the cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions. So making a judgment. Uh the second one is law, the determination by a court of competent jurisdiction on matters submitted to it. And then three, the mental ability to understand and discriminate between relations. Very interesting. I already have some thoughts based on that because I think where we're gonna land maybe is just actually understanding the definition of the word better.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

I think so.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

Because I think we get really caught up in the idea of judgment or doing the judging or not doing judging when we should, uh, when we don't understand the word. So hopefully you've already got something out of this because I have. So okay. I think let's dive, let's dive right into the spicy stuff, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Alright.

SPEAKER_04 3:45

So, Matthew 7, 1 to 2, do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged. And I need my coffee for this. So obviously we have a little more to navigate because we're doing the handheld mics, so bear with me. Um if you're watching, not just listening. But this this um this passage from Matthew, I think is pause and drink coffee for a dramatic effect. I think this is where we get lost a lot in the judgment. So I think this is specifically talking about we should be careful when we're judging other people because we don't know their whole story, we don't know what they're struggling with, um, unless this, you know, unless the Holy Spirit reveals to you in grace and love, like, hey, here's what's going on. Um, but even then you probably still have a very small piece of the picture of, you know, their whole life and their struggle and trauma and all that kind of stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Well usually the Holy Spirit gives a word of knowledge like that in order for you receiving that insight to then take the next piece that he gives you that gives them hope or encouragement or love them and love. Like Holy Spirit doesn't go around just airing out your business to random prophetic people. That was one of the warheads of my childhood, being terrified that the moms knew what naughty thing I was doing because the Holy Spirit was gonna wrap me out.

SPEAKER_04 5:37

So the funny part about that is I mean, first of all, I was nervous about that with your dad. I was like, I feel like I better behave because the Lord is telling him everything.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

My dad was also 6'4 and very just He was larger than life. A gentle giant, but he could switch that intimidation on real quick.

SPEAKER_04 6:03

Yeah. But he was also just such an incredible mentor to me, and um he really became a a spiritual father that I anyway didn't have.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

We don't have time to cry today.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

Okay, all right. Try not to. Um, but the other funniest example of that for me, for any of our friends uh listening from Spring Arbor is Ron Capico. Oh our our our dear friend, um, and who was the chaplain at our at the college we went to. Um, all of the guys on campus had this like head on a swivel, like we better not sin, or Ron Capico is gonna know about it.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

That totally was what all the guys thought. I forgot about that.

SPEAKER_04 6:45

We better keep straight and narrow.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yeah, Holy Spirit was totally gonna rat y'all out to him. If it was gonna be any way, it was anyone, it was gonna be to him.

SPEAKER_04 6:53

We were nervous about it.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

We weren't even at a Pentecostal school. We were at a pretty It was Methodist, a pretty dry Methodist school. But he was filled with the spirit and we all knew it.

SPEAKER_04 7:03

Yeah, well, and he was just like, you know, he was he was just one of those guys who had a beard and he had this voice that always sounded like he was a football coach and he had lost his voice a little bit. So he's kind of had an edge to it, and everyone just respected so much what he carried that it was like I don't want to disappoint Ron.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Right. And so you look in his eyes, and there's the wisdom of the ancient of days just staring back at you.

SPEAKER_04 7:33

The Lord just poured into him. Anyway, I'm getting a little off on judgment. Here's people that I was worried about being judged by, you know, um, who fortunately were very gracious. Um interestingly enough, I think that was the first compliment your dad gave me. Is he was like, Archie's very gracious. I'm like, I think that's a really good thing. I gotta think about it. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

I don't remember that.

SPEAKER_04 7:59

Because he told you and you're like, my dad said this, and I was like, Whew, that's a relief.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

You know, gosh, I don't remember that at all.

SPEAKER_04 8:05

Well, it was 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

And four babies ago.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

So fair, you know.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

That's four brains shrinking and then growing back.

SPEAKER_04 8:14

So back to Matthew. I I think that we we we get that that whole um back to Matthew. Don't judge, because the world, like no one likes to be judged, right? No one likes the feeling of you know, if you do something or you know, you could even go back to the unknown stuff, but like none of us are perfect, right? All have sinned, all have fallen short of the glory of God, and because of the free gift of Jesus, yeah and because of what he did, we can have salvation, and so we receive the the kindness and the mercy of God. We don't receive his judgment if we have Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Well, I think this passage in Matthew 2 is talking about what you just said, the free gift that we have from Jesus. Because it's making me think of that parable he tells, and it's slipping my mind which gospel it's in, but it is a parable that Jesus tells of the servant who was in massive debt, begs for forgiveness, and the owner forgives all his debt or gives him more time. No, I think it was that he forgave it, he just outright forgave it. Then the servant turns around to a fellow servant who owed him a small amount, yeah, and then he is like nasty and exacting and saying, You have to pay me back, and it makes all the other servants really distressed. So they tell the master, and the master is like really upset.

SPEAKER_04 10:00

You wicked yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Because he's like, I just forgave you like a debt that's immeasurably more, and you could never pay it back in five lifetimes, and you're behaving this way, you're judging this way to a fellow servant, like, shouldn't you show the same grace that you received?

SPEAKER_04 10:26

Right, instead of and I think that's a beautiful way to put it, like, shouldn't you be giving the same grace that you've been given as opposed to going back and judging how you've not been judged?

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Right. Because the whole point of that is if we're to be like Christ, if we're supposed to live according to his examples and his teachings, yeah, that means that we don't weaponize judgment. That means we don't become nasty and exact exacting because of what we were given through Christ, because of his example, of forgiveness, of grace, of um like you were saying, you know, the love. Yeah. It's kind of like throwing his sacrifice back in his face. If that's what he gave to us and we refuse to give it to others, it's it's sort of like scorning what he gave, that the gift that he gave us.

SPEAKER_04 11:33

Yeah. Um, so the other the other quote from Matthew that I think can round out this portion is the uh Matthew 7, 3, first take the log out of your own eye. Um and and we have, you know, uh I think this is why it's just so much of the time it comes back to like when we're talking to humans about anything, it's it's it's truth and grace. It comes it comes from a heart that's loving, and that's the only way people really are gonna typically receive anything is if it comes from that place in a relationship, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Yeah, um, but this is some real awareness because there's a spider on you that I can't handle.

SPEAKER_04 12:23

Okay. There you go. Welcome to nature.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

We are outside.

SPEAKER_04 12:28

Yep. And we're living. Um because none of us are perfect, and so it's really easy for people. Um, you know, if someone feels like they're being judged, they're like they're not perfect. What ground do they have to stand on?

SPEAKER_00 12:42

The walls, the embattlements, the self-defense.

SPEAKER_04 12:45

Especially if you know them well. Well, I know they're like this and they do this, and I've they've done this to me before. And so it's like uh it's really hard to receive that.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:56

Um when it comes from a judgy place, right? Or from a like, this is the law, this is the rule.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Right. It's where when you use the intimacy and close knowledge you have of somebody to leverage your judgment against them. Right. It's really tough to be on the receiving end of that. Like it's not gonna soften the heart, it's not gonna uh bring repentance, and I think that's why it says in Romans that it was the kindness, his the kindness of the Lord that brings us to repentance. I know. Again, that's an example that we're meant to follow because it's something we received ourselves.

SPEAKER_04 13:40

Yeah, that that that one has become uh a lighthouse for me in in the way that it it just always kind of points and illuminates like this is this is where that comes from.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

It's a good way of putting it. How fitting to say it in front of a lake. You planned that.

SPEAKER_04 14:04

I did it just came look, my best ideas happen out loud. I don't I don't think that hard. You're the hard thinker. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

That's true.

SPEAKER_04 14:14

Um I mean, I do a lot of thinking, but anyway. Okay, this is the hopefully this this piece gives you some freedom. So um if if you found your play yourself like in a place before where you feel like where you're feeling like maybe I'm being a little judgy, um, or you feel that temptation, um, hopefully this gives you some freedom from that. So James 4, 11, there is only one lawgiver and judge. Um and this is really, I mean, there's there's like way, way more you could get to here, but this is really um that God is the judge. And so any anything that uh that is real final judgment, um, we're talking, you know, eternity level stuff. You know, in the world of the Marvel like power levels of superheroes, this is as high as it goes. You know, there's nerds that will debate on the internet about power levels, whatever. The point I'm trying to get to that's um very nerd tangent right now is ultimate judgment belongs to God. And this should be a freedom for you because it means that you don't have to be the one who decides judgment for other people, and you don't have to be the one who decides their souls. And you don't have to be also because there's only one lawgiver and judge, but you don't have to be the one who sees that judgment happen. So you don't have to say, you know, here's here's where that gets a little bit uncomfortable with some of our cultural concepts and our movie liking, is that also means that you don't get to take revenge.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Right.

SPEAKER_04 16:11

You don't get to pass the judgment that says this person lives or dies, this person um, you know, is going to get to know the Lord like you're some kind of gatekeeper. Um and the Lord uses us in ministry and evangelism to reach people, but he doesn't give us, hey, I want you to go and decide souls. Like he gives us the opportunity to help save and to point people to him, to invite.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

And the relational walking, the discipleship, like we talked about.

SPEAKER_04 16:47

But we we get so we get so uh a lot of people just they want someone to get what's coming to them. And uh, and that's that's a that's not a feeling from God. Um, because then again, there's his love and his kindness.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

I I think too, it goes back to the first verse we talked about. Whatever measure of judgment you give out is the measure of judgment you'll receive. So if you're measuring out revenge and you know, ving vigilanteism, engineered karma, then that's what you are signing up to receive.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

That kind of ruthlessness and that's what you're deserving at that point, whether you yeah. And I think too, we don't realize what carrying making judgments and carrying them out against others does to our soul. Yeah. And I think the Lord knows.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

And he knows that if we try to step into that seat that only he can carry, only he belongs in that seat. If we try to step there, it's gonna destroy us.

SPEAKER_04 18:02

Funny you should mention that because Romans 10, or is it Romans 14?

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Sounds like God is consistent.

SPEAKER_04 18:08

Says, for we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. And if there's nothing that will sober you up, yeah, that would be it. Um, and then a little bit later it says so that each one of us will give an account of himself to God. Uh so if you gotta stand before God and give an account, I mean that's yeah, anyway. I'm I'll let you sit on that one by yourself. And actually, Second Corinthians 5 10 uh also says it. Right. Um let's see. Oh, that's a fun. I mean, this is just piling on at this point, but Ecclesiastes 12.14. If you want a little OT in there.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Love me some OT.

SPEAKER_04 18:54

For God will bring every act to judgment. Thank you for Jesus. Woo! That was close.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

That's why it's so amazing.

SPEAKER_04 19:04

I've lost count. Um, Matthew even says every careless word people speak will be given account of.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

That's the one that gets me.

SPEAKER_04 19:14

Every careless word. There's a reason to be a good idea. How many times would someone run their mouth?

SPEAKER_00 19:20

There's a reason I tend to be quiet.

SPEAKER_04 19:22

Uh so some of us I'm not a big talker. Me, have applied that less than others. Um I actually, so one of the things I I will give credit where it's due, one of the things I will I will give to my oldest sister, um, so I have three sisters. When I was very young, and I was um always quite chatty. Still quite chatty. That's why I said always, because that means it's just consistent. She was like, I don't even know what I was running my mouth about. I was just talking, talking, talking, talking, talking. I get it from my mom. It's a long line of talkers. Anyway, we have some kids who inherited it. Uh and she goes, Do you even think about things before you say them? And my brain went, Well, that's burned in there now.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

I think that's what your sister meant to do, burned it right in.

SPEAKER_04 20:17

Yeah, so good work on her. I learned something the first time someone said it. Um, but in that, I feel like that's when my inner dialogue was born. I don't know that I had it before. I think it was all outside.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

That's funny. Thank you, Sean. Uh, that's a thing.

SPEAKER_04 20:35

Um okay. So now I think we pivot a little bit because I think we've covered the first big dimension of judgment that we're, I think, a little bit more familiar with. And it just has so much to do with like the tone and the context with when which we attempt that type of judgment, right? Because we know we're not supposed to judge unbelievers, and we're and we're gonna be held to that, like, hey, if this is how you judge people, that's how you're gonna be judged. So keep that in mind, right? That that is a little bit more of a thing you may have heard preached, and you may have heard this too, and that'd be amazing. But the this is where I think it gets a little bit spicy. This is the hot chicken. Um delicious experience. Okay, so 1 Corinthians 5 12. So we're gonna go to Paul, and uh sometimes Paul He doesn't pull any punches.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

That's how I was gonna say it.

SPEAKER_04 21:38

Yeah, he I I imagine Paul like Ron Capico giving it to you straight. Here is the thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

I bet he had the wisdom of ancient of days in his eyes as well. Yeah, I mean certainly was in his pen.

SPEAKER_04 21:54

Yeah. He wrote a lot of letters. I hope people listened. Okay. So, 1 Corinthians 5 25. twelve do not judge those do you not judge those who are within the church but those who are outside God judges so there there's there's actually like a lot of uh other examples of this but essentially what's saying is you should be judging those that are within the church those who are in Christ and again to our earlier point this should be unto their maturity yeah still kindness spiritual growth still kindness still love but iron sharpens iron we we are to help each other become more like Christ to help each other grow to be closer um and to to more fully realize what God has who he's created us to be what he's created us to do and I think when we get used to the do not be judging thing we think that we're not supposed to be doing the other kind of judging well we're taught we're taught in church at least I was growing up like I heard that uh Sermon on the mount Matthew 7 passage about the plank and the the you know the log and the speck.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Yeah that was applied to in-church dynamics not out of church dynamics yeah and in some settings it was both dynamics like you weren't supposed to judge at all and I remember studying first Corinthians for myself as a young adult and being like wait a minute hold the phone holding he's saying I should judge what about all this teaching my whole life that I shouldn't judge what about the logical reasoning in my brain and I really had to wrestle with that and understand what Paul was saying and get some commentaries out loved me a big fat commentary understatement and try to understand what he was saying and kind of undo questionable teaching.

SPEAKER_04 24:32

Okay this is fun. Let's play out two scenarios. Okay so I'm trying not to make this about an example of myself so uh but maybe it doesn't matter let's look at an example of what does it look like if we don't judge someone within the church.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 24:57

And it could be their blind spot. It could be something that they're they're unaware of that they're doing. Because usually let's I mean let's be clear usually this is because of actions. This is not usually because we're in people's heads in their thought life. Right. This is I mean that does show up in actions to some degree um and that's where they're kind of born but what happens if we see someone's blind spot or Holy Spirit reveals it to us in love. Yeah and we don't say anything.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Yeah I think that is the equivalent of watching someone's canoe heading for a waterfall that they do not see coming but we see coming and just waving and saying hey great to see ya. Looks like you're doing great or a bright future in the next 10 seconds. Have the polite church turn and greet your neighbor conversation how you doing fine and accepting that even though we know it's not fine and just accepting it to be polite and say nothing.

SPEAKER_04 26:07

I think there's also a really nice layer here if we're doing the polite thing we maybe have not done the relational work to be close enough to them to feel like we have a voice in their life. That's very accurate because if it is someone who you know we see the blind spot and we want to help them not go down the waterfall because no lighthouses on rivers it's just not a thing. There's no need.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

If you don't take the time to build a relationship you probably aren't going to see the waterfall because you don't know you don't talk to them you don't know.

SPEAKER_04 26:45

So that's that's also the case.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:47

But it is always work to spend the time to get to know someone and so there is rapport. There is love and investment and it's like saying that you value someone if you're gonna spend the time and the energy to do that.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:05

Unless you're related to them and then you're stuck with them to some degree and there's there's a lot of I'm not saying like chosen relationships like marriage. I'm saying like Yeah family of or family is a little different than someone just in Christian community. But I mean you know what if they're Christians judge away no I'm just kidding just kidding I'm kidding mostly but do it in love. Um so that so that's a great example uh the other one would be uh I think probably where some of your scars are is people who were in the church and this is probably prevalent in some communities more than others and I'm not gonna pick on anybody um where people feel like well I'm supposed to judge those within the church so I'm judging everybody oh well yeah there's some people who enjoy that admonition from Paul too liberally yeah um so in that scenario right where people are overjudging probably not coming out of the right place not coming from love do you think it has to do with we give you two options maybe if maybe throw a third in there do you think it has to do with a survey says pride b survey says ignoring your own spiritual growth and what the Lord's asking for you to do and focusing on other people so as to distract yourself from doing the hard work of yourself.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

That was a long option I won't make you repeat it that's just B or C both Well I think it has to be C because if it weren't coming from a place of pride why would you care to do all that work of smoke and mirrors and judgy words to get attention off of yourself. Okay would you do that?

SPEAKER_04 29:18

The good thing for me is that I want attention so that I'm never trying to get the attention off myself. No that's a bit of a joke. Which is why you're not laughing at home and I'm sorry I will have better jokes. The only reason I bring that one up is just because if we're like thinking of extremes um because we're not called to the extremes we're called to the the gracious balance um as much as I think a lot of balance is a little bit of a fallacy um because like the universe isn't in balance God is supreme he's all powerful um that's not the topic for today. God lives in the paradox of the tension yeah of both extremes and when he invites us into his family he invites us to walk that same paradox to the best of our ability yeah um and regardless of what um Satan and the uh fallen angels would like for you to believe um this is a Ron Capicoism so he's making a lot of appearances today Satan is not equal to God no God is all powerful Satan above all Satan is under he was created by God so um so people get into this world of opposites and Capico used to do that and he would go what's the opposite of down and people are like up and he's like what's the opposite of dark and he'd be like light and then he'd like what's the opposite of God and they'd be like the devil and he's like wrong he loved doing that one and I crack up relished it. He'd get the freshman with that every yeah it was so good. And they're like oh crap oh no he's right anyway he's gonna hold it against me no I'm just kidding uh so funny though so anyway I think I think it's important to to mention the extremes because if you go back to the heart if you really care about somebody you don't want them to go off that cliff. But you know that if you say the things in the wrong tone they are gonna paddle faster to the cliff.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Sometimes you can say it in the right tone and they're still gonna do that. But you have to try.

SPEAKER_04 31:40

Yeah if you really care this is the this is the hard stuff of Christian community of finding a way to lovingly gently kind of encourage someone and the and be praying for them. Oh my gosh because the Lord will change your heart towards a posture of love towards them regardless of this is a thing that you've noticed or this is a thing that the spirit has told you and that's where discernment comes in what do you feel about discernment of these types of matters I think that you really shouldn't be trying to follow Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians without the Holy Spirit and without discernment.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

Why is that because that is when all of our as Paul would put it fleshly nature comes in. That's when we get those A, B, and C options working out in us that's when we get the weaponization of judgment working out and and all of the mess and all the things that shouldn't happen but do and all of the damage done by so many people from the church to others that are in and out of the church. That all comes from trying to be judging whether they think they're doing what's right or not they're not doing it out of love. They're doing it out of some other place and if they were doing it with Holy Spirit there'd be some love there'd be some kindness there'd be some say the true thing in a better tone in a loving tone. Because you can say the right thing in the wrong tone and accomplish nothing.

SPEAKER_04 33:34

Yeah. And like you said make someone paddle faster towards a waterfall or zigzag towards it and they're still not getting it you know right on their on their own because they just don't they don't see that it's coming from where they're sitting I I think there's like so there's so much here. Um I had something else that felt witty and it went away I guess I didn't need it. Uh I think the discernment part oh that's what I was gonna say okay but the discernment part is is really important and partnering with the Holy Spirit and Lord what do you you've revealed this to me either through through the Holy Spirit or through my intellect whatever it was what do you actually want me to do with this prophetic friends that can come too in your dreams and your visions um that have other people in them that you feel very strongly about and still wrestling that out in prayer like what does that look like what am I supposed to do with it Lord and I was trying to get back around and then I forgot again the thing I was thinking I had something good to say to you and I'm distracted by this spider that's too close to me. Okay well I'm I'm the Lord the Lord will take care of the spider um I have it again. Okay so I'm trying to think about how to give the context so I have done a thing in my life where I have for myself attempted to become unoffendable. Mm-hmm a worthy endeavor and I do my best and every once in a while you say something or my sister does like yesterday and then I have a look on my face where there's an amount of processing going on and you guys laugh really hard and you're like this to be clear this is my youngest sister.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

We know you and you're like we got him that is not my intent I'm not looking at you like a duck hunter.

SPEAKER_04 35:59

I I I know it's not but but the moment is is fresh in my memory um and they're like he didn't like that um but the only reason I'm bringing that up is if you want to be someone who is if you're trying to grow if you really want to grow and you want to know the Lord better and your heart is really to disciple others and to lead in any capacity then I really encourage you to first look to trying to not be offended because also what happens with people I don't know how many thousand times we've said this to our kids what people say to you has everything to say about them. And a lot of the time not that much or as much to say about you actually. Because they're the one talking and it's how they see you and it's how they see things. How they see the world even and what they've gone through and what's shaped them.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Sometimes it's how they see themselves and they're just sort of projecting that on you. Oh my gosh a lot of the time um this this all goes back to the plank yep and the spec. Now we're back to the plank.

SPEAKER_04 37:14

Um so the reason I say that is if you want to come to a place where you can really grow bless you I I invite you to sneeze more frequently no um if you want to come to the place where you can really grow work on that because if you can receive kind judgment from friends who can see your blind spots who are looking out for you because they love you. Yep that is a way to and to to just bring up a lot of people that I love um uh we one of my best friends from college Rob he has such an incredible gift of openness where he asks people and if you want to talk about um oh there's a chipmunk right there if you want to talk about growing fast he asks people all the time about anything he's doing whatever it is tell me what I can't see yeah is is this good am I doing good at this tell me what I can't see like be honest be real straight and if you don't like really give a thoughtful answer he's like okay no but really right right in the most like lovable way yeah uh that is a brazen chipmunk he's like two feet over there they are brazen in this neck of the wood yeah so all I was trying to get to with that was uh a lot of the time it's hard for people to receive um you know that kind type of judgment that's intended to help them because they have their their wounds are too close in their mind or they're or they're still working through trauma or they're sitting with it or they've or they haven't or they still have accepted it and they haven't tried to extricate it right from who they are. Yeah there's a lot there take us somewhere because I didn't give you a good question.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

It wasn't a question it was just pontification.

SPEAKER_04 39:42

I know maybe I should change my nickname um but I don't have a good one to to think of tell us about what why is it hard for someone who has a lot of wounds or un unconfronted unhealed to trauma to receive judgment.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

What's hard about that when we're talking about someone who's carrying a lot of trauma they're also carrying all of the the defenses protecting the places in them that are traumatized. So and that presents in a lot of different ways but it's it's coping mechanisms, defense mechanisms it's a lot of times it's sort of like a facade personality that's allowing this person to function on the surface the world on the surface and try to keep all of the trauma things on the DL out of sight out of interaction with other people and if someone comes to them with a blind spot if someone comes to them with a well if it's not in love for sure. Yeah you know walls up guns out going to be hard to receive in love. But even with the love a lot of the times I think that when someone is getting close to someone carrying a lot of trauma they're gonna start to see some of the the edges of the production if you will the defense production. And they're gonna be like hey there's more going on here and they can say it in love but they're accidentally stepping on the triggers and the trip wires and the calling out what has been carefully dis constructed to conceal and contain all this other stuff. And if the person is not ready to see and deal with all this other stuff then they're feeling threatened and they're feeling compromised in their safety and they're not it's gonna be let's defend the defense.

SPEAKER_04 42:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

It's not gonna be oh you love me it's oh you're about to reveal everything that I've spent 10 years making sure no one can see or touch.

SPEAKER_04 42:38

Yeah and then and then you're just fighting the narrative that they've constructed to protect themselves.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

Fighting the defense mechanisms of getting mechanisms now on twenty or a thousand depending on the person. Yeah and and you don't know if you don't know that they have trauma in their past you don't know that you're walking into that and it can be really confusing. Yeah. Because then you're like what just happened I thought it was helping and now I just got you know attacked projected on whatever the defense is to make you go away and stop pointing out what they don't want point it out.

SPEAKER_04 43:19

Yeah the interesting thing uh I mean there's yeah hopefully you guys if you need that just replay that because that was great. Uh but uh you know repetition helps as you're saying that too it just reminded me of one of uh one of the dear parts of scripture to me that I've dwelled a lot on um Jesus talking to the Samaritan woman at the well and how he cuts through right and how she's asking him a lot of questions um because you know in their context just a Samaritan woman talking to a Jew is like a whole Jewish man. Yeah Jewish man is not gonna happen Thank you for painting the better context there. Um, this is yeah, this is just a thing that doesn't this is not uh appropriate in the cultures.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Yeah, in their culture. That was unheard of.

SPEAKER_04 44:11

And and in that conversation though, and she's asking him a lot of things, and he's like, You spoke truly, for you've had five husbands, and the man you're with now is not her husband.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

She kind of evades him by saying, I'm not with my husband or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 44:27

She's dancing around it, and he goes, I'm gonna cut right through all your narrative and all your defenses and all the things, and just go, but here's actually the thing that is plain.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Right.

SPEAKER_04 44:38

And this is the central concept. And Jesus being uh, you know, God and having God powers knows the heart and he can cut through directly. And so when you're praying for how to help a brother or sister with whatever it is that you feel called that you're supposed to speak to them about, I think it's helpful to partner with Holy Spirit in that and just say, help me, Lord, give me the words that are gonna actually get through what they've told themselves or what they've accepted in order for you to break in to show them. Because if you're the one opening their eyes, then they're receiving. Then then then it's up to them to decide what to do with it and how they're gonna ask you and how they're gonna, you know, partner with the Lord and hopefully somebody else to help.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

But well, I think that's that's coming around to what I was gonna say before the spider got too close. Nice. Um when you are walking this out with Holy Spirit and discernment, it's it's the words, like you said, it's using the right words, but it's also the time. Holy Spirit is gonna tell you the right time to say the right words in order that someone can receive it. Whether there's trauma involved or not, I think everyone needs the right time for them to be able to accept a word, especially a hard word that's challenging. But when you do, when there is trauma involved, I think there's a decent amount of healing that needs to happen first in order for that person to have the ability to hear, to receive, to hold, to walk out a challenging word. And only God knows that timing, because only God knows the heart of a man or a woman. And we're never gonna know the heart, we're never gonna know that trauma healing journey.

SPEAKER_04 46:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

And if it's a Christian walking through that healing journey with Holy Spirit, even more so, yeah, then Holy Spirit is helping both sides of the relationship, of the relational equation, if you will. Because there's been lots of times where you know I have a a measure of trauma in my past, and there's been lots of times that people have said a challenging thing out of love that I couldn't hear, could receive. And I hope I was nice about it, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 47:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

When a trigger fully takes over, sometimes you don't even know what you're doing or saying in the panic. And and it's taken a lot of healing over a lot of years to be able to receive some of the challenging things that current friends are saying to me. And I'm now stepping into a measure of growth and leaving some of the drama production, if you will, and stepping into more authenticity as a person.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

And less of a defense mechanism as a person.

SPEAKER_04 48:06

Those so many good things. I I think one of those things is uh for us to ooh, I just got a mosquito. That was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

Speaking of justice, Justice.

SPEAKER_04 48:20

Uh we love some justice when it's mosquitoes. Uh, so well, one of the things that you said made me think about, you know, trying not to be a producer and trying not to edit my life and just be real, be authentic, and it's really easy to say, you know, be your authentic self. But it's um it's it's a lot of different prices.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

People don't know how hard that and dangerous that can feel and be.

SPEAKER_04 48:45

And I know that we could do a whole episode on that. We could right now. Um the other thing was so we're not doing the the producing, we're trying not to be producing of of the thing. When you started talking about that, it made me think about the timing can be so important because depending on where someone is at, this is the discernment that the Lord gives you. What they might need right now is you have the awareness of this thing that you may eventually, you know, enter into conversation with them about later on. Could be years. Could be uh funnier things the Lord has done. But what they need right now might just be a friend.

SPEAKER_03 49:35

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 49:35

It might just be love, and it may be the confirmation and the encouragement of someone saying, I care about you enough to pour into you to help you get to a place. And you know what? This thing that that I've realized or that I understand is your gap is really not the thing right now that we need to get into.

SPEAKER_03 49:58

Right.

SPEAKER_04 49:58

And that's not what you need at this moment, but it's something eventually I would I would love for the Lord to give you the gift of the healing of this or the awareness of it, or the it's it's as I like to say, it's being the person who gives new data to new data set, the nervous system. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Because a lot of times with trauma, you can logically, cognitively understand that you are now out of the traumatic situation.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

And you're safe, but your nervous system as a measure of programming that cannot leave that that situation, cannot leave the hypervigilance of I can't let that happen again.

SPEAKER_04 50:45

Here's a different path.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

And for people who are falling into a cycle and a pattern, they're continuously getting data that reinforces that nervous system setting.

SPEAKER_04 50:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

And in order for the nervous system to heal, that non-logical place that's looking for danger and looking for safety, that nervous system needs new data.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

And it's not words, and it's not even a one-time event of someone showing up with kindness and love. It's over and over and over and over again until the nervous system that is not the words place, it's a gut reaction. Kind of an emotional place in some senses. It has to have new data that tells it through experience, prolonged experience, I am now safe. I am now no longer in that trauma situation.

SPEAKER_04 51:44

Yeah, we've never had this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

So if if God has brought you into a relationship like that, it is exactly like you said, where even though I can see this gap, even though I can see this thing, Holy Spirit is not telling me to say anything. He's saying show up in love, show up in kindness, show up in all the spiritual gifts and fruit of the spirit. That's what I mean. Show up with all the fruit of the spirit.

SPEAKER_04 52:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

Be the Chequito lady on the old commercial, old commercial with her hat with all the fruit.

SPEAKER_04 52:18

We get all kinds of product placement going on in the podcast we're not getting compensated for.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

And give new data to this nervous system that you are safe, that you are loved. And you know what? That is what is gonna bring that person to the place where they can now receive the thing.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

It's a very long answer to prayer. That you get invited into partnering with the Lord to bring someone into healing, into wholeness, into fullness.

SPEAKER_04 52:48

So if we've established anything today, all this is super easy, there's no subtlety, and you can just be wild with no, this is very facetious. Uh as you were saying that, uh, it occurred to me that all of our friends who may be listening who are married, this is a thing you may be very tempted to do with your spouse on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

What? Confront stuff?

SPEAKER_04 53:17

Or to very intimately know their gaps and their blind spots and what they're struggling with. And I think that it's actually a beautiful way of looking at it because when you're in a healthy and wholesome place, you really want the the healing and the growth for that person because you care so deeply.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

Right.

SPEAKER_04 53:44

Not because you want to see judgment come to them. Because they're your person.

SPEAKER_00 53:53

Hopefully they're your person.

SPEAKER_04 53:55

They're supposed to be your person. And and so you're supposed to want the best for them. Yeah. Um, because if you both want the best for each other, that's I think a really good way to to love. And uh and so I first started thinking about this when you were talking about part of your example just made me think, oh, that's so much like marriage.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

That is a long walk journey.

SPEAKER_04 54:31

Yeah. And the day-to-day, like, I love you, I still love you, I like being around you, I like talking with you, I like listening, I like hearing your things. And there are some phrases, um, oh my gosh, and I can't think of who I learned this from. But there are some things that like your kids, oh, I think it was in this journey for authentic manhood thing that we did as a men's study years ago. Um, but it was like there are things that your kids need to hear from you.

SPEAKER_03 55:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:03

That are like, I love you. Absolutely, I'm proud of you.

SPEAKER_03 55:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 55:06

I believe in you. There's there's a bunch of really good phrases there. Um, but I think also in marriage, there are things your spouse needs to hear from you, like some of the things that I just mentioned. And maybe it would be a great exercise in the openness and being willing to receive judgment to throw yourself out there and ask your spouse, what are the things that you really want to be hearing from me on a regular basis that are going to help?

SPEAKER_00 55:35

I thought you were gonna say, What are the things that are my blind spots?

SPEAKER_04 55:37

What are my blind spots?

SPEAKER_00 55:39

Let me have that is a brave question to ask your spouse because they know they know them all.

SPEAKER_04 55:44

They do know. So does the Lord and Ron Capico. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

No, I think that's good though. What what do you need to hear on a daily basis? Cause I think whether you have trauma or not, we all have nervous systems that have been affected by these really challenging historical times that we live in now. And our nervous systems are all maxed and need new data. And hopefully your spouse can be that safe place to give that new data. There certainly are the ones who are in the closest proximity.

SPEAKER_04 56:30

Speaking as someone who uh who is still working on some old data that I've been given, I have some grace for some data takes a while.

SPEAKER_00 56:46

Some data it takes a while to replace in the nervous system.

SPEAKER_04 56:51

Some data takes a while to analyze and operationalize and integrate in a useful way. And I'm I'm like a person who I'm always showing.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

I don't know what you're trying to say.

SPEAKER_04 57:04

I'm I'm trying to apply the an analogy for all the nerds that are like, Data. Because if you give a nerd new data, they're like, This is exciting. I can do stuff with this.

SPEAKER_00 57:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:15

I can throw this in Excel and pivot it out, or I'm gonna put it in an app and I'm gonna ask an AI to analyze, or you like there's a lot of things with the data, okay?

SPEAKER_00 57:25

Okay, yeah. Nervous are not as excited.

SPEAKER_04 57:29

Okay, so that's the thing. Mosquito.

SPEAKER_00 57:32

That bug has it out for you.

SPEAKER_04 57:36

Lord have justice on the mosquito. Let it be your justice, let it be swift. Um the only reason I'm I'm over-indexing on the data is not all data created equal. So sometimes it's a thing that's big and it's deep, and it's it's got a lot there. It's fathoms. And sometimes it's like, okay, some days you just need me to make pancakes, and now I know that, and I can do it. It's not that hard. And then sometimes it's like, oh, I need to change a behavior which is deeper rooted, or I need to change my thinking around what's making me behave that way.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

That's a big one.

SPEAKER_04 58:24

And so some of these things you have to do.

SPEAKER_00 58:27

The renewing of the mind.

SPEAKER_04 58:28

The renewing of the mind. And in the non-Christian references, I learned a lot of crazy things in our brain about um from Daniel Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow. It's a very long book, and I recommend it. I recommend it if you like audiobooks, because you can do it and you can survive it on audiobooks, but it's an extremely long read because he is clinical.

SPEAKER_00 58:52

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 58:53

There's a lot of mind data.

SPEAKER_00 58:55

That sounds like a book I would like.

SPEAKER_04 58:57

But it comes through a lot of thorough study. Um, and anyway. So maybe you would like that. But thinking fast and slow, judging fast and slow. Yeah. Depending on the gravity and the weight and the and with Holy Spirit. 100% where I was definitely going with that.

SPEAKER_00 59:17

Still your thunder a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 59:19

Well, that's almost a biblical line, like the um do not be quick to anger.

SPEAKER_00 59:26

Slow to speak. Slow to speak.

SPEAKER_04 59:30

Thinking fast and slow.

SPEAKER_00 59:31

God is consistent. It's almost like this is the secondary lesson.

SPEAKER_04 59:36

It's almost like our minds came from him, like he created them or something. I don't know. And this is the point where I think I have reached probably the capacity for all the good things I had to say. Was there anything about judgment that you think we need to tie the bow on?

SPEAKER_00 59:57

I I feel like we covered all the spice and brought the milk to cool it down as well, if we're talking spicy chicken.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

Or no, is it sp is it milk or is it celery? No, it was white bread. So yeah, we've brought the Nashville hot chicken and we've brought the white bread on the subject of judgment.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:24

But if we're gonna use like a okay. Yeah, I'm not gonna go there. That's that's too much.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:30

If you bring another analogy, then we will not have the loop.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:33

I have forfeited the analogy for the sake of closure, which is not a strength of mine.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:39

Well, why don't you pray then?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:41

Great idea. Um, Father, we pray that we would have the wisdom and the foresight, the ability to see, to know when you're giving us something to judge, a brother and a sister who is in Christ, and how to do that, and how to say it, and how to bring it, and to do a thing that we didn't talk much about, which is how to do that one-on-one and not in front of large groups of people to embarrass them. But that's part of doing it in love, is is coming to them personally. And I'm not preaching during prayer. But Father, we also um pray for us to have patience and understanding for those who uh who don't know you yet, who still need to uh learn the truth and the beauty and the kindness of the gospel of Jesus, who died for them and who sits at the right hand of the Father. And um, God, we just pray that everyone come to fully understand the truth of you being the only one who actually judges eternal things like people's souls and the freedom that comes with giving that to you and not holding in it ourselves. And Father, we just pray that you'd give us grace with the people that are close to us and give them grace in dealing with us and judging us all unto loving better. In the name of Jesus, amen.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

Amen.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:22

Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:23

Cheers.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:29

Thanks for listening to the Archie and Edda podcast. We hope this conversation encouraged your faith, challenged your thinking, and pointed you back to God's word. Until next time, keep walking with Jesus, keep loving well, and keep leaning in to what God is speaking.