Welcome to Sea of Whales, the whale geek podcast where whale watching and whale research meet. I'm your host, Shauna Prince, scientist and whale watch operator, bringing you conversations with whale researchers and ocean experts from around the globe. Let's dive in. Today, we're joined by Steve Ferguson, research scientist with Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and adjunct professor at the University of Manitoba. Steve has worked for many years with Arctic marine mammals and temperate species that are beginning to move into the Arctic as it warms. Steve and I met three years ago when he was looking at the possibility of coming here to do some work with our sperm whales. Welcome, Steve. Yeah, thanks for inviting me. I have to say that when I've been on the boat talking about the work that your team is doing, uh, in our area, and I tell them that you're visiting from Manitoba, there's always a few snickers. Um, I think people, when they think about Manitoba, uh, sort of picture these, like, wheat-covered fields and, you know, prairie, but not necessarily an ocean. And, you know, you just have to, you have to look up, uh, we do have three oceans here in Canada. Have you experienced that before? Yeah, no, for sure. It's, uh, you know, it is kind of a prairie province in a lot of ways where most people live. But, um, we have Hudson Bay on our coast- coastline of the province, and, uh, it's the gateway into the, the Arctic Ocean. And, uh, it's an important, um, part of the, the province in Canada. It's, uh, also, uh, Winnipeg itself is, uh, uh, close to Nunavut and, uh, services a lot of, uh, needs of, uh, Inuit communities in, in, uh, that area that, uh, uh, often come to Winnipeg for, uh, health, uh, uh, issues and things like that. So there's a really strong connection to the Arctic here, surprisingly. Yeah, it's sort of interesting when you think about that as it being a- an access point, um, for the Arctic. So it's not far really when you look at it on the map. Um, can you tell me about the work that you've been doing in the Arctic? Sure. I've been working on, um, well, I guess large mammals in the Arctic my whole career. But, uh, started with terrestrial mammals and, like, caribou and wolves. But, uh, switched to marine mammals more accidentally. I, I was given the opportunity to study polar bears. And I didn't realize at the time that they're a marine mammal. But they definitely are. And so I had to learn a whole new ecosystem. And, uh, so lately I've been working more seals and whales, uh, in the Arctic. And, uh, what's, uh, brought me to, uh, to Newfoundland is mainly the connection with, uh, uh, future forecasts and how we expect those temperate whale species to start moving into the Arctic and either competing or, you know, we're not really sure, but doing things that are, that could be a problem for the Arctic, uh, endemic whales. So that's the kind of a focus of a lot of the research. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's really interesting when you, when you talk about the changes that the Arctic, um, has been experiencing and what the projections are for what will happen, uh, in the future. Can you talk a little bit about some of the changes that you've seen throughout your time working there? Yeah, I think it's, uh, so much of it is connected to the sea ice. That's what kinda defines the Arctic. Um, and the animals that live there are, uh, really adapted to the sea ice. So if we lose the sea ice, we're gonna lose those animals. It's pretty clear they can't, uh, they can't manage without it. And so that's the, the whales and seals that, uh, uh, require a habitat that includes the sea ice, and, uh, that's what's disappearing fast. And, and the, the changes, uh, with global warming are accelerated as you approach the poles. And so it's, you know, if estimates are three to five times faster, warmer- warming is occurring in the Arctic. So it's, it's pretty dramatic to see the, the changes happening there and, and it's all kinda linked to that loss of sea ice. Three to five is a lot, you know? Overall, year after year, I mean, that's a, that's a significant increase. Um, you know, and then couple that with the Northwest Passage being open for a larger, you know, portion of the year. There's a lot of interest in shipping through there and development through there now that they can ship, um, in and out of that area- Mm-hmm uh, more consistently. I'm sure, you know, compounds, further compounds the problem for the changes that these animals and ecosystems will see. Yeah, no, that's a good point in that it's, it's, uh, a lot of human development has been also increasing in the Arctic, largely because of, uh, the ability to, to get a lot of, uh, extraction of, uh, resources there. But it's also, uh, you know, it's the future in a lotta ways. The sea ice being lost is an advantage for a lot of, uh, shipping and, and things like that. So it's, it's something that, for us, that are looking at the, the animals like the whales, um, and how they use the area, it's important for us to also look at how those, uh, that increased shipping and, and activity is gonna affect them. Mm-hmm. When they really not had to have, um... had to deal with those kinds of pressures before, I guess, is a, is a big concern as well. Yeah. I don't think there's any pristine places left in the world, but there's- Yeah some areas that have been more recently affected and, and the Arctic is one of them. It's been sheltered in some respects, but, uh, that's changing fast. Yes, for sure. Um, can you tell me a little bit more about the work that you've been doing with our sperm whales? Yeah. Uh, well, it was kind of, uh, opportunistic. The, uh, the, uh, the idea of the new Arctic Whales project was to, uh, look at the whales, uh, off of Newfoundland and, and in the, uh, um, the, the area of the, the northwestern North Atlantic. And the predictions were that these are the whales that are gonna move into the Arctic- And compete and caused possibly problems for the endemic arctic species. So we thought if we were able to tag the whales, uh, put, uh, telemetry devices on them to monitor their movements and dive behavior, we might see them move into the Arctic and, and get a better idea of how, uh, these changes are gonna unfold. Um, so we've been doing that since 2018, and, um, and we had no idea that the area where you work is, has all these sperm whales. And, uh- it was a happenstance to find them initially, and then through discussions with you to learn more about the, uh, the sperm whales, we decided, uh, to kind of focus a couple of years of research on them. Um, the sperm whale's interesting because, uh, the females in the family groups stay down in the Caribbean throughout their lives, but it's the males that head to the high alt- or high latitudes areas, uh, in the North Atlantic. And, um, it's, it's kind of an unknown as to what they're doing. So it, uh, it connects with the Arctic research, but it's also pretty interesting on its own. We think it is. Yeah. I'm glad you do too. Um, and so can you tell our listeners a little bit about what you found when you tagged them? Yeah. They, uh, they tend to stay in the area most of the summer, and, um, in the fall they, they tend to move offshore more. So you probably wouldn't see them, uh, along the coastline as much, but they're still, uh, in the region and, uh, feeding, uh, in very deep waters. They're, they're amazing deep diving whales. Uh, but eventually most of the males, I think, uh, at least the larger ones that might be involved with mating, start to head to the Caribbean. So we've had the, uh, tags stay on the whales long enough to see them, uh, go down to the Caribbean. Uh, but it's still, most of the research on sperm whales has occurred in the, uh, tropical waters around the world because it is a, a place where you can go and find them year-round. But I think a missing piece of the ecology of the species is what these males do when they go north. And, uh, it's a pretty fascinating animal. I mean, they, they ha- We know a lot about the social structure in the equatorial regions and, and, uh, you know, their possible language, things like that. But, uh, a missing understanding is what the males are doing. We're, we're pretty confident that they're quite social as well, and they're doing things together and, um, yeah, it's, it's a part of the, uh, understanding of the species that, uh, needs to be explored. I mean, every day we learn new things from those whales when we're out with them. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's really interesting. And, and the more I read, the more I realize that there's very little known about what the males do and where they go and, um, the social structure. So I've been writing, so hopefully I'll have- Yeah uh, something ready, um, to get published soon about some of the things that we've seen over the years that we've been with these animals. Mm-hmm. Um, even last year when you were here, I mean, last year was a, a bit of a different year. I mean, you, you were here for two seasons, and I'm sure you remember the first season was not quite like last year was. We had, um, some pretty significant fires in Newfoundland and Labrador last year. We had one that was actually quite close to where the sperm whales have been hanging out, and I'm sure you had days where you were dealing with the smoke, um, as we were. Uh, and they left, uh, about a month earlier than what we would normally see them leaving. And, you know, it's anybody's guess, uh, why that might have been. If it was, you know, the increasing amount of boats out there around them, or if it was smoke, or if it was a combination of a bunch of different factors and maybe some things that we don't even fully understand. Um, so it will be interesting to see if they come back and have sort of a, quote unquote, "normal year", uh, this year. Yeah. We have heard them on the hydrophones already. We've only been on the water since the 15th of May, so, um, you know, we're just at about, uh, 12 days into our season. Yeah. Um, we can hear them, but we haven't seen anyone yet, and they do sound like they're a little bit further out than they have been before, so. You know, we'll just have to wait and see what happens. I mean, when you have that many large animals feeding in an area, I also have to wonder at what point will they, you know, hit the carrying capacity of what- whatever that species, um, that they're feeding on there is, and at some point will we just not have enough food for everyone and they have to move on to a different area? I, I'm not sure, um, what will happen. Do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah, no, and their, their feeding is important because, um, uh, that's why we think the males come up here, is it's, it's amazing food resource available for them, and they probably spend most of their time, you know, diving and catching food and eating. Um, uh, we also have a study concurrently going on in Baffin Bay. And, uh, the sperm whales there follow the, uh, the, the fishing vessels, in particular the, the turbot, uh, fishery. And the, and the- Mm-hmm they eat a lot of the bycatch and, and a lot of the, uh, fish that escape from the nets and, and interact with the fishing vessels. The, a- and we've had, uh, at least one whale that was, uh, identified in your region that, uh, ended up in, up in the Baffin Bay as well. So it's, th- there, there is a connection there as well, even across thousands of kilometers. Mm-hmm. And, uh, again, the feeding. Um, uh, the other interesting observation we've had is, um, two males that kinda stuck together for quite a while that, uh, you know, w- these are the kinda things we have so many possible explanations for. But, you know, maybe they're brothers or something's going on. Mm. But, uh, yeah, the, the social lives of these males, uh, is k- quite fascinating because they, they're, they're a huge whale with a gigantic brain. Mm-hmm. I mean, they've gotta be so smart, and they've gotta have so much going on in there that w- we probably can't even comprehend. It's interesting that you mention the brother thing. I hadn't really thought about that before. Maybe they grew up in the same family group or something like that. So I guess the next time you come you'll be doing some biopsies and trying to Trying to do some DNA analysis. Because we certainly have a few that have, um, appeared together for more than 10 years- Mm um, and are always together. Uh- Great and so, you know, a- and they're some of the earliest ones that we have seen. So it's interesting when you talk about that. I hadn't really considered that before. But, hmm, things that make you go, "Hmm." Yeah, there's... There's a, uh, a PhD student out of Dalhousie University, and, and that's part of, uh, a focus of her research. So she's looking at, uh, the genetics of, uh, both the, the whales in the Caribbean, but also the ones that we've, uh, collected biopsies from- Mm uh, at the higher latitudes off of Newfoundland or in Baffin Bay. Mm. Mm-hmm. And, uh, the idea there is to see what their relationships are. You know, who's, who's, uh, the father, who's the, you know, the, the son and, and- Mm uh, all those kinda things. So that will be really exciting to see the results there. And, and, and, and we might learn a lot more about their social structure. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, as our methodologies change. I mean, I've read some papers that were written in the '60s and '70s, and mostly then focused of course on whaling effort and the things that they were discovering based on whaling. Um, and then you go all the way to, and also behaviors that they would witness during whaling, which I would not expect is really natural behavior by any means. Um, when you're attacking an animal, to then be documenting the behavior seems, you know, not, it's not a natural behavior. Um, and then all the way to now where we're doing genetic analysis and, and telemetry studies and, you know, all of these kinds of things that have sort of, uh, I mean, it's very evolved from some of the earliest, um, papers that were written. And some of that data is still, uh, good and valid, but a lot of it- Mm-hmm you know, sometimes when it was, um, focused around the whaling effort, it was very different focus than it is now, for sure. Yeah, no, I think the, y- you know, we have to never forget that, uh, extraordinary whaling effort, you know, and what it did to the, to the, w- most of the whale species in the world. But, uh, sperm whales in particular, you know, driving the population down to such low numbers. You know, we always have to g- remind ourselves that what we see now is, is just a, you know, a small, uh, part of what it must have been like back then. And, and some things that we've learned with other whale species in studying them is that w- we don't think they'll ever go back to the way they were. You know, they, unfortunately we've lost, uh, the ecosystems that they evolved into, and the way they developed is- Mm-hmm been so, uh, shattered by human activities that, uh, it's gonna take evolutionary time to rebuild, you know, the way it was hundreds of years ago, which is pretty sad- Mm 'cause it would, would've been amazing to see. Um, but it's still, you know, those imprints of the commercial whaling are still on the, the whales we see now. I mean, they're, they're, they live a long time. They probably even experienced some of the, uh, the mortalities. And, uh- Mm you know, it's in their memory. Uh, it, it's, it's also in their, their genes in some ways. We can look at their genetics and tell that it's, it was a, a very large crash in numbers that occurred with, uh, commercial whaling. So it's, it's a good thing to keep in mind that it, it always is, is something that structures what we see now, and we can't forget that. Yes, absolutely. That's an excellent point. I, I also, um, I've done a little bit of research about, um, sort of the catches. We, we did have a whaling station just across the harbor from where- Mm-hmm our, our boats leave in Trinity, and there still is the big concrete ramp that they would've brought the animals up onto for flensing. And I had looked at some of the data because my assumption was that these whales are returning to what would've been a historical feeding ground, um, prior to whaling. It seems that there were never large amounts of sperm whales taken in this region in particular. So whether they occupied this feeding area prior to whaling, it's anyone's guess because there were no documented, um... You know, they were just like big beasts and sea monsters and all kinds of things if there was anything in the record. But nothing definitive to say what kind of species we're talking about. Now, that being said, we did find, um, a few years back, we had family visiting and they were digging on the beach and the kids were throwing rocks, and someone brought me what they thought was a a horn from a cow. Yeah. It was not. It was a sperm whale tooth. Yeah. So we were kind of shocked. But again, with the proximity to the whaling station, um, you know, it's not inconceivable to think that they would've had a sperm whale at some point, or maybe one was entangled and, um, ended up- Yeah somehow coming in and, and decaying on a beach. It's, it's difficult to say. I still haven't found, um, much indication that there was really any concerted effort, um, or any, um, real significant catches of sperm whales in this area, which given the numbers that we've seen over the last 20 years here was surprising for me Yeah, I, I think there was. Uh, w- uh, digging through some of the archive, uh, samples that we have in our... W- we have this huge marine mammal archive that, uh, in Winnipeg that we've inherited, and it goes back 50 years or so. And, and digging through it trying to inventory things, we found samples from the commercial whaling era, uh, when Canada was, uh, part of that, uh, whaling harvest. And it includes the, um, uh, off Nova Scotia, and then, uh, the sites you're referring to in, in Newfoundland as well. And I, and I... And they did include sperm whale samples, some pretty extensive samples. Pretty amazing. Mm. Like, uh, vacuum-packed with, with plastic. So we're, we're trying to- Wow look at some of those and the biomarkers- Mm and things like that. But, uh, we have analyzed them for the genetics. And there's a suggestion that, uh, uh, back then the, um, the, the genetic variation of the whales was different than what we see now. So it... There's, there may have been some kind of bottleneck. Um, uh, another thing that we're, we're looking at is, is to, uh, get the similar kinda information you get from the genomics with, uh, what we think is their main prey species, the, uh, squids. Nice. And, um, and see, uh, compare the, the genomic, uh, history, 'cause you can get a demographic history from the genomics, uh, of sperm whales and squid. Because the idea- Mm might be that with the large commercial whaling that happened and then the, the, the crash in numbers of sperm whales, that maybe the sperm, the s- squid numbers went up. Yeah. And, uh- Yeah uh, so we're, we're hoping to maybe get a bit of an idea of that, 'cause it might give us more of the story as to what happened in the North Atlantic, which is probably one of the most messed up, uh, ocean systems because it's had such a long history of European, initially European, uh, fisheries. Interesting. I, uh, I'm, uh, I'm not... I don't wanna say pleasantly surprised, because obviously all of those animals were killed to get those samples. But it's, it's great that they were saved and that there's something left behind. Mm-hmm. Um, and I was specifically looking at, uh, primarily wha- the whaling station that we have here in Trinity. So of course we are a little bit further in the bay. Um, I know places like Dildo were really well known for their whaling. And- Yeah you know, potentially also, um, being close to maybe like Baccalieu, where they're sort of right on the trench and out a little bit more, um, to open water, might have, um, had a little bit more in, in the way of sperm whale catch, um, numbers than what we would see in here. Um, so yeah, that's interesting. Maybe I just need to cast my net a little bit wider and see what else I come up with around here. Thanks for that yeah. What I would suggest is the Canadian Museum of Nature has a, um, a website I think, and they actually show the locations of some of the kills in the whale species, and the sex, and body size. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It's really a fascinating thing to, to dig through. Uh, uh, yeah, that's, it's something that we plan to, to look more into. So they have a, an archive at, uh, Gatineau. Uh, and, uh, it's just, uh, yeah, you really have to... You've seen some recent, um, research and publications have come out on the commercial whaling and where they caught the whales. Things like that are- Yes starting to give us a better idea of the distribution and abundance and some of the even movement patterns just by understanding that history It's so interesting. I think I had read at one point that, um, this generation of whales is the first generation to interact with humans in a, in a non-aggressive way. Mm-hmm. Um, particularly, you know, in the North Atlantic where we have protections in place for most of the species. There is still a little bit- Yeah of whaling happening. Um, and so it, it sort of, you know, makes you wonder. And then with the intelligence that we know exists with these animals, is there, is there passing down of that knowledge in some way or that experience in some way, um, through the generations? So when you talk about genetically we can see, um, what happened to those populations, but do they know socially and are they communicating that with each other? Um- Mm you know, remains to be seen. And that's, you know, sadly is not something that we'll, may, we may ever know, you know? But, um, interesting to think about it that way as well that, that that information, you know, we have an oral tradition where we pass down stories. Um, do they do the same thing? Well, we know that they have very complex language and very complex brains. Um, are, are those kinds of things or were those kinds of things passed on? It's hard to say. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you might experience it more, but I, I, I think the whales do know us and, and they do, uh, you know, recognize vessels and, and by the noise and things like that. So I think, uh, you know, it always amazes me in working on them when we have to get so close, uh, with the research and, uh, you know, sometimes they get annoyed with us and, and they might use their, their tail, uh, fluke to f- flip water on us. And I'm thinking- Mm "Here's a whale that's bigger, massively bigger than our boat that could crush us at any seconds and- Mm-hmm you know, d- do all sorts of damage." And, and all they're doing is splashing us with water. Like, it's just, uh, it, it's hard to imagine that they don't have some kinda, uh, connection and understanding of us. Like you say, that, uh, you know, hopefully the, the next generation is, is learning that we're, uh, well, not only they're learning, but maybe we're learning to, to be nicer to them as well. Yeah. I think, yeah, that's an excellent point. Chris, um, really believes, uh, that the whales hear our boat and know who we are. Um- Yeah and because we are respectful around them, and really a lot of the time that we're spending with them engines are off and- Mm-hmm they're given a choice to, you know, come in for a look or just do their thing or whatever they're doing. Um, and I think that that goes a really long way because we seem to get some really interesting encounters when you give them space and the opportunity to interact in a, in a non-stress or a lower-stress way. Um- And, you know, you'll see sometimes people out there with boats who, you know, are out with people at the food fishery or something and just wanna show off and show their friends a whale, and kind of zoom in really quick and really fast and get really close. But you know what? You can do that one time. But if you're out there trying to show people whales every day, one time doesn't work. You need to be able to do it consistently every day. And if they don't trust your boat and they don't feel comfortable around there, they're just gonna leave, you know? And so- Yeah uh, it's so important to, um, be able to do that. And, and that was one of the reasons... and I, I was afraid to even talk to you about that when you guys had posed the idea of one of our boats being used to put tags on, that, like, we feel very strongly that they know who we are, and to have our boat then associated with, um, putting tags on, which is really important work that you're doing, um, we... You know, when you go home and we're not doing that anymore, are we then going to have to rebuild that trust that we've built over this amount of time because, uh, you know, we, we were involved with that? So you brought your own boat, and we all coexisted- quite nicely. And- Yeah you got some great data, so, um, it worked out. But that was something that, I mean, it was like, "Oh, it'll be so cool to be out there and doing that." But at the same time, you know, we need to make sure that we're still able to watch these whales and get anywhere near them, you know, in the future. So, um, I think it worked out really well for everybody involved. Yeah, it's funny you, you say that as well because, uh, uh, last year I suggested to the group that we pretend we're whale watchers- and see if we can approach the whales easier. And, and I thought it actually worked, you know? And- Yeah either shutting off the engine or going slow and, and just, uh, s- approaching them very gently. And, uh, yeah, I, I thought it, uh, kinda worked. But so- Yeah, we're both, both doing different things. That's great. Yeah. Well, I'm glad it worked. Yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, your work is so very different than what we're doing out there. Mm-hmm. So respect, I mean, um, what you're doing is not easy, and it is a lot of work. Um, and I know, uh, we were super grateful to be receiving data from you when you knew where whales were, um, just because it was so interesting to be able to share that. I remember, um, one of the first days that y- you were out, and you had given us access to that, when I, I think I emailed you and said there's a problem with one of your tags, unless these sperm whales are berry picking at night. Yeah. And there was just a problem with, I think, one of the tags was on and in the truck or something, and so it was transmitting from wherever it was, I think. But, um, it's sort of interesting when you look at that. Sometimes there will be unexpected results. Um, I don't think that they're berry picking at night, but Yeah. Um, you know, I'm sure that there have been things where you think, wow, that's really weird, and then it, it, it's not an anomaly. I mean, it's an anomaly, but it's not, um, a mistake of the, of the, um, you know, data collection you're using. It's actually something that we didn't expect. And I think you probably would agree that the more you learn, the more questions you have with these guys. So, um- Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the way science is, but it's what makes it fun, you know? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you so much for talking with me today. Um, we could talk for hours and hours. I always learn something when we get to sit down and chat. Um, and I really appreciate you joining me today. Yeah. Thanks for inviting me. I really enjoyed it as well.