Welcome to Sea of Whales, the whale geek podcast, where whale watching and whale research meet. I'm your host, Shauna Prince, scientist and whale watch operator, bringing you conversations with whale researchers and ocean experts from around the globe. Let's dive in. Today, we're joined by Padraic Cooley, sightings officer at the Irish Whale and Dolphin Group. Padraic and I were first introduced in 2023 when we were notified by Allied Whale that we had photographed a whale that was the first ever Western North Atlantic and Irish match. Um, so three countries and five catalogs, as your article says, and it was a really exciting time. Um, and it's just great to have connections, uh, across the pond. Um, welcome Padraic. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks very much, Shauna. Um, I'm gonna just start off by finding out how you got in marine science. How'd you end up doing this? Um, I suppose my early career, my... Yeah, I have not come at this from the traditional, you know, go to college, do zoology, and then with br- Uh, my earliest, uh... I, I studied logistics when I was a, uh, when I left secondary school, transport management, logistics. I think they call it supply chain, uh, management now. Uh, then I started working in shipping, so there was some maritime connection there. So I was working for, in shipping in Dublin, uh, on our east coast. And, uh, I, um, I then became involved. Yeah, my girlfriend, I remember at the time, Samantha, broke it off with me, so I had a bit of free time one weekend, and I was coming out to Greystones, where I lived in Wicklow, and I saw a little flyer on the, uh, the train station saying, uh, "IWDG meeting about cetaceans in the Department of Botany in Trinity College in Dublin." So I said, "Well, I got a bit of free time this weekend," and I was always kind of interested in m- marine wildlife. Uh, so I went, and I just thought, uh, listening to Simon Barrow talking about, uh, cetaceans, I wasn't quite sure I actually knew what a cetacean was. Uh, but then, um, uh, I just realized that the, it, it just clicked somehow that this was something that I was gonna be interested in. Uh, so I had spent a couple of years doing land-based whale watching out in Cape Clear Island in West Cork, uh, without a whole lot of success, but then started off hanging out with more bird-watching types who were really good at l- land-based d- distant observations. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I learnt a certain amount from them. Uh, then traveled around the world, which took me to Canada, uh, of- of all places, and I was basically spent a year and a bit following whales around the world. Uh, and my first port of call was Johnstone Strait on the other side of your land mass- Yeah uh, in BC. So I spent a, a summer working. There was an ecological consultancy. Uh, this was 1995, so it wasn't yesterday. Mm-hmm. Uh, there was an ecology consultancy based in Vancouver called Bion Research, and they had the contract for BC Parks to manage the Michael Biggs Ecological Reserve, which, you know, most m- m- many other... I'm not even sure if it's still called the Michael Biggs Ecological Reserve, but it, it's the Rubbing Beach Reserve, uh- Ah, okay for people who are mad into- Yes mad into killer whales. So, uh, so you've got Telegraph Cove there, which would be the nearest town. And then we, we were based out on a little island called West Caycroft Island, uh, on a, uh, on Boat Bay. So it was a field camp, and the idea was that we were there to, uh, warden, uh, on behalf of BC Parks. There was a warden service, uh, so we were under contract to BC Parks, and, uh, the, uh, the whole idea was basically- Informing boat, boat operators about, you know, you're entering a reserve, telling them about the killer whales. Um, and I never know when I use the term killer whale, it's just a habit. Should I be using orca? Because I, I seem to spend half my life defending myself because I call them killer whales. I just, I just can't bring myself to calling them orcas. It just sounds too fluffy for me, uh. Um, but, uh, we had an amazing summer. I, I kind of, um... It was probably my first time seeing killer whales, but, uh, I had sort of wonderful memories there. One particular day, we had 75 animals come into, uh, the area. But yeah, so the whole idea of the, of the warden service was the mic- was the killer whale rubbing beach reserve. So listen, that, that was kinda the, was my first port of call when traveling around the world, and then I kind of since then, or, uh, in that same year, I spent a lot of time down in, um, uh, down in, uh, Baja, uh- Mm-hmm another amazing place. Yes. Uh, and, uh, uh, I, I went through a period in my life when I was just an inveterate traveler, uh, going to... Spent a lot of time down in Patagonia as well, uh, again, with f- looking at the killer whales that were attacking the sea lions, uh, up on the beaches in, um, at, uh, the, down in Chubut Province in southern Patagonia. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Another fabulous place. I don't know what it is about whales, but they always tend to, uh, have preferences for beautiful areas, which, you know- They sure do. Yeah so, so whales and beautiful landscapes and great people are something that always kind of coalesce quite nicely. So true. So true. Um, just a question. Biggs' killer whales, are they named after Michael Biggs? They would be, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. What would be the normal whales that you would expect to see, um, off of Ireland on a regular basis? Yeah. Well, what, what I call the, um- The usual suspects and start small working up. We have a- Yeah, sure and these would be co- coastal species. Obviously- Okay once we, so as I said, we got 26 or 27 species in Irish waters. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But, uh, the mo- the usual suspects would be the harbor porpoise- Mm-hmm uh, which I know you have. You guys don't have the Dall's porpoise, do you? That's a Pacific animal, isn't it? Yeah. No, we don't have any of those. Beautiful, super, probably the fastest of all our cetaceans. Mm-hmm. Um, Dall's porpoise, common bottlenose, Risso's, uh- Mm-hmm and then you're up to sort of- Once you then go staying coastal, uh, your minke, your humpback, and your fin whale. Mm-hmm. So there are, they are what I would call our usual suspects. Mm-hmm. Uh, but once you start going a little bit offshore, then you've got your white-beaked dolphins. You've got, which are rapidly disappearing from our waters. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's probably nearly 20 years since I've validated, uh, a white-beaked, uh- Oh, wow also white-sided dolphins- Mm-hmm which are almost as rare. Uh, again, there's something happening with these offshore, uh, a- animals that we're just not seeing them, and there's plenty of people doing offshore work as well, you know? Mm-hmm. Uh, then of course, you got your sperm whales. Now, for us to see sperm whales, we've gotta really go out of our way to see them and go- Mm-hmm uh, you know, 100 kilometers offshore. But I mean, if you put your toe in the water there in Bonavista or Trinity Bay, you- you've probably already got sufficient water depth for sperm whales, but we don't- Yeah 'cause we- Yeah we have something you guys don't have, which is a very big continental shelf. Mm-hmm. And it's only when we hit that shelf edge down to 5 to 1,000, 500 meters to 1,000 meters that you're gonna start picking up your beaked whales, your sperm whales, your pilot whales- Mm-hmm uh, and even your blue whales. But so they're, they're, they're what I call the offshore animals, but the usual suspects, definitely harbor porpoise, common bottlenose, Risso's dolphins, minke, humpback, and fin whale. And then we have the honorary whale, which isn't a whale at all, but the basking shark. And I always- I always lump the basking shark in. They're just as exciting. Yeah. Well, they're, they're kind of, we, we do record basking sharks just because, well, we had the network. We had the observers. Mm-hmm. And we just thought rather than this nascent group, the Irish Basking Shark Group, rather- Mm rather than th- they're having to reinvent the wheel and develop their own n- network, we said, "Listen, you know, we're all into big marine megafauna, so we'll take basking sharks under our remit." And, and right at this time of the year, I sometimes wish we hadn't because I, I'm, I'm logging and validating more basking shark sighting records probably than I am whale sightings. So I think this, this is going to be another quite a busy shark year for us. Mm-hmm. But there's very little validating required for basking shark records because let's face it, if somebody sees a big seven to 10-meter shark, it's only one species of shark. Pretty much. And that, that, that's a basking shark. That's right. We, we don't do great whites, uh, here. Uh- Yeah but, uh, well, not yet anyway, but there's still- Uh, because you guys occasionally would get great whites. What- We do every once in a while, especially the ones that are tagged. You'll see that they're, you know, not, not very far off, for sure. Yeah. So now that people are tagging things, it makes it so much easier. But, you know, interestingly, when I started here, my first summer here was in 1999, and we definitely had a lot of basking sharks, and it would be- Right very, very rare for us to see one now. So whatever is happening, um, for them- Um, there's definitely been some major changes. Would you say you've seen less over the years that you've been working there, or is it holding pretty steady? I- Ireland is something of an anomaly. Everybody everywhere else around the British Isles, and I, I include Ireland in that geographic, uh, sense. Some- Mm-hmm some people get very animated when I use the term- because it's political, the British Isles. Yeah. But, uh, uh- Mm-hmm I, I use it in the geographic sense. But I'm thinking of places like the Hebrides in Scotland, I'm thinking of the Isle of Man, which is in the middle of the Irish Sea. Mm-hmm. I'm thinking of the, the south coast of England, Cornwall. All these places historically would've been really, really good shark, uh, basking shark places, and the sharks have largely left all of them. Um, so I mean, even the, the... There was a group, uh, the Manx, which is Isle, the Isle of Man. Mm-hmm. The Manx Basking Shark Group actually disbanded. There was so little point in them continuing. Mm-hmm. Uh, there had been so many years when, when th- they had seen absolutely no basking sharks. Um, so we, um- We seem to now have a near monopoly. It would almost look like all of these places that have lost their basking sharks, they're coming to, uh, the southwest of Ireland, the west coast, and the northwest. Mm-hmm. Um, and we kind of have two bites at the cherry with basking sharks. We have, we... Around late March, mid-March to late March, we have, um, the start of the, the s- uh, the late spring, early summer feeding period. Now, by the numbers are building during April, they're probably peaking in May, and around now, any week now, those numbers are gonna plateau, and then by the end of June they'll be gone. Mm-hmm. And they'll be pretty much gone until next year. So it's a kind of a short spring season, uh, of about three months. Mm-hmm. But in the last couple of years, and it's possibly down to the numbers of people flying drones- Yeah uh, we have a second bite of that cherry, which is in autumn. But this time all of these sharks are swimming around with their mouths closed, so they ain't feeding. Mm-hmm. Uh, and what we're pretty sure it is is it's, uh, courtship related. Mm-hmm. So we're, uh, and there's been this wonderful name given over to it called a torus, T-O-R-U-S. Okay. And these toruses sometimes can literally be hundreds of sharks in an area- Wow about, they say a square mile. And it's o- really only from drones. You can see what it is, is all of these sharks swimming, uh, counterclockwise. Uh, and then under, so it's like a, a vortex of sharks on the surface going all the way down. So you could, you could have 30 or 40 individuals swimming all with their mouths closed, head to toe, in this carousel that's swimming, s- swinging around. And then you might find that there's three or four of those carousels in one relatively small area. And sometimes we reckon that, uh, there, there could easily be hundreds of sharks in one small area, and that's County Clare. West County Clare seems to be the real hotspot. So we would love to know what it is in particular about West County Clare, uh, that is attracting these sharks. Mm-hmm. Uh, and of course we've, we've had people over from, um, uh, Taylor Chappell is over at the moment with colleagues, uh, doing a lot of satellite tagging and, uh- Mm-hmm uh, sticking discovery tags on as many, and taking slime samples as well to look at DNA. So there's a, you know, uh, you know w- you know when you've got people, shark people, coming over from Oregon, uh, to study- our basking sharks. I mean, they would say it is- Yeah probably bar none the best place on the planet to both see and to study basking sharks. Uh, so, uh, yeah, we've got two bites of the cherry, the feeding event, which is now, and it's kind of late spring, early summer. Mm-hmm. And then nothing. They're, they're gone for the summer, and then there's a big return, uh, later, and that seems to be around September or even October. Mm-hmm. And it's only a, a short couple of weeks when they're back. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, uh, of course the big question is are they here all along? It's sh- or, or, or are they simply just diving down? Mm-hmm. Uh, maybe they're feeding. But, you know, you have to say that we think it quite unlikely that you've got thousands of basking sharks- Yeah and they're all just on, a- a- at depth. Our feeling is that they are leaving. For those sort of months of, you know, late June, July, August, maybe early September, when they're completely gone, we think they probably are gone because, you know, it, it, you know, it's hard to miss 10-meter sharks, you know? Yeah. Um, so that's the story with our basking sharks. That's amazing. As to why exactly they have disappeared from so many of their former hotspots- Yeah and what it is exactly that they're- And why are they all here? Why are they all here i- is a real- Yeah mystery. Uh, but I'm sure it, it's only a matter of time before far better minds than I, uh, get a handle. And it's presumably to do with feed, and it's- Mm-hmm presumably to do with sea surface temperatures and- Yeah water salinity, and, uh, there is just something here that they like, uh, which is, which is great. Mm-hmm. It makes me happy that they're thriving somewhere 'cause, you know, you worry about it when you have something in an area and then suddenly they're not there anymore. Are they just... You know, are they not alive anymore, or have they moved on because, you know, their food has moved or whatever the case may be. So it's nice to hear that they're thriving, you know- They, yeah somewhere else, for sure. I, I mean, it's, it's thriving. You've gotta be careful. I mean, uh, you know, just talking to, uh, Taylor, uh, who's got, you know, h- he's been tagging sharks and, uh, you know, they would be tagging- quite a few sharks, and when they, they're downloading the data, you know, the da- you know, and they can see the, the, the dive profile, there's a considerable amount of evidence that some of these animals are, are getting caught in fishing gear. Mm-hmm. And you can tell by, you know, the profile of the, the dive that they go down and they, they, they're not coming up again. So, uh, you know, fisheries bycatch is a problem here. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and I know from divers, especially last summer, who got into the water in the area where there were lots of, you know, uh, courtship tourists, and we always associate the breaching as well. A lot of, a lot more breaching sharks than you would typically see during the feeding period. So, um- Ah but they got into the water, and almost the first thing they saw were basking sharks, uh, drowned on the seabed in, in tan- in bottom-set gillnets. Mm. So, uh, yeah, it's not all great news. Um, we- No there is, there is a bycatch that we are kind of cautioning, is it, is it sustainable? Mm-hmm. Uh, and the early evidence would suggest that if, if numbers like we suspect continue to be caught in fishing gear, uh, we may well find that, uh, the, the basking sharks, uh, uh, it's just gonna, it, it's a mortality that is not sustainable, you know? Mm-hmm. So, uh- Yeah yeah, so that's why we need to protect our basking sharks. Absolutely. That's amazing. I mean, numbers like that, I... And breaching basking sharks, never seen that before- Yeah either, even when we did have quite a few here, so wow. Yeah. Add that to my bucket list, for sure. Um- Well, at this time of the year, w- because this, you know, you know, especially April, May, when it's kind of really pre our whale season, 'cause our whales- Mm-hmm start really rocking up in sort of more May, June period. But I, I very early on in my period validating cetacean sightings in Ireland, it always struck me as odd how many people report breaching whales in Irish waters, especially Irish waters that I live r- right next- Mm adjacent to. Mm-hmm. And I'm thinking to myself, "There's something out here. We, we really haven't got whales. And minke whales, humpbacks, they haven't really arrived yet." Ah, gotcha. Yeah. And every Tom, Dick, and Harry is watching breaching sharks, or sorry- Mm breaching whales, and as you quiz them- Yes you realize, yeah, they're mistaking. Uh, and the key thing is, when I explain to them- You could be watching an empty expanse of ocean, and you can always tell when it's a shark because all of a sudden, completely unannounced, you get- Yeah this big breach, uh- Yeah and a big splash, and that's it. The event is over. And nothing else. No blow. Nothing. Yeah, yeah. Nothing before- Yeah and nothing after. Mm-hmm. So, I said, that is a typical classic breaching basking shark. Now, it may breach more than once. Uh, but obviously if you're watching a humpback whale, you don't just see it breach. You've been watching it- No for 15, 20 minutes before. Yes, exactly. Exactly. It does all that behavioral repertoire. Mm-hmm. And after it breaches, it usually does a tail fluke. Uh- Mm-hmm and they g- they would all go, "Oh, yeah, 99 times out of 100," they'd go, "We think you're right. It was a, it was a," "it was a big fish, not a whale." Yeah. So, how can you confuse a fish with a whale? Yeah. Well, if it's a basking shark, it's quite easy. They're pretty big, yeah, yeah. It's, it's larger than the average fish, that's for sure. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. I think for us, one of the problems we have are, uh, when minke whales lunge feed, they're on their side, so then you see one half of their tail come up. And so we- Yeah repeatedly get reports of orcas when this is happening because people think they've seen, like, an orca dorsal fin come up when they've seen the half of the tail sort of thing. Um, and so- That, that happens also with fin whales. Yeah. Yes, yeah. Because the, you know, the fi- the fin whales, or finbacks as you probably call them, they're turning- Yeah on their right side, and then- Yes that forces their tail, uh, their, their fluke- Yeah, just that little edge to go- And it's so clean, yeah. Oh, a- and I mean- Yeah every time you see it, you kinda go, "I can see where the confusion, uh- Yeah, I totally can l- lies." Yeah. Yeah. But I've never seen that with a minke whale, but we see that all the time with fin whales. Yeah. Yeah, it's so funny, isn't it? But yeah, same, same kind of problem. So, um, most of your, uh, orcas, are they fi... See the way I said orcas there? Um, uh- Yes, good for you. That, that didn't come easy. Are, are most of them fish eating or mammal feeders? Yes. I think ours are opportunistic. So the craziest things we see them doing are feeding on other marine mammals. So usually minke whales are getting the worst of it, but sometimes we've had fin whale calves also, and we certainly have humpback calves that have some significant scarring on their tails where they've been grabbed and, you know, moms probably ran them off. Um, but there are times when they are in the area and the other whales are quite happily just continuing what they're doing. And so you have to wonder if when the orcas are present during those times, are they feeding on fish specifically? Mm. And that's why the other whales are not, um, sort of scattering. So very often when the orcas are in the area, everybody else clears out, makes themselves pretty scarce, um, for obvious reasons if they're whale hunters. And we still are very early in our cataloging in this area to sort of be able to figure out is it- Is it that sometimes they're feeding on whales and sometimes they're feeding on fish, or is it that, like the same group, or is it that some are, are fish eaters and some are whale eaters and that's just how it is? So primarily what we see is that they are feeding on other whales, but sometimes they're in amongst the other whales and they don't seem to care that they're there at all, so you would have to wonder why that is, right? And I don't have an answer- Hmm for that yet. Yeah. I- But, uh, it's interesting I, I, I mean, they are definitely a complicated killer. They definitely are. Uh- Yeah and, um, yeah, I, I think that we sometimes have the Scottish, uh, West Coast community group coming down, but there's only two of those individuals left now. Um, but, uh, we... I mean, we've seen them here over the last 20 years, and it was only really last year we got footage of one of them, Aquarius, with what we were pretty sure was a common dolphin, uh, in its mouth. Um, but it was just amazing that, you know, we, we've loads of sightings of them going back several decades, um, and yet nobody had ever seen them hunting. It was almost like when th- when they came here, they were on a, they were on a fast or something. Yeah. It was just- Yeah really odd, and yet the, up in the Minches up in Scotland, they've been seen taking minke whales when, when they were a core group of nine individuals, but that's down to two now, so it's a little bit depressing- Yeah uh, that a group of nine over a relatively short space of time is down to John, Coe, and Aquarius, two big adult males who are probably bulls in their, God, uh, they, they're probably in their early 60s now. So that- Mm-hmm that is a group that's, that's, that's going to become extinct, you know? Yes. Um- Sadly but, um, you know, they, they will hopefully be replaced by other killer whales that'll come in and fill- Mm-hmm fill that ecological niche that, uh, their demise. Uh, but it is sad because they, they are what you would call the only resident native group of killer whales or orcas in- Mm-hmm anywhere in the British Isles. 'Cause, you know, you get lots of animals coming in from Iceland or from Norway- Mm-hmm um, but the, you know, they're probably Scandinavian killer whales, whereas these are native, predominantly spend their time, uh, circumnavigating the British Isles. Mm-hmm. So they are the only native group, uh, native to our waters. Mm-hmm. And, uh, uh, their, their, you gotta say, their days are definitely numbered, which is a- Mm-hmm which is a sad indictment, you know? It is. It really is, to watch numbers change like that and wonder, you know, what could've been done or what the story is about why, you know? Um- Yeah and some of these things we'll never be able to answer, right? Which is- Yeah it's really hard sometimes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um- Yeah. Well- So tell me, like, whales in your area, so you talked about ones coming from Scandinavia. Um, so humpback whales in your area, I know, but why don't you tell everybody, uh, what's sort of happening with your whales? Where are they going to? Where are they coming from? The, the, the question increasingly isn't where are they going, but it's where ar- aren't they going? I hear you. Uh, 'cause- Yeah it, it, it would seem like, uh, you know, 20 years ago when I did our first little plot of le- well, let's have a look at where are sightings, uh, and you do a, you do a little map, and it's kind of a map of, you know, Ireland, the wider British Isles, and then- Mm-hmm maybe one or two outliers, like we had one in the North Sea. And, you know, then that map, you needed to pull out a little bit because you were adding a few Icelandic animals- Mm-hmm uh, and a few Scandinavian animal, like nor- up to northern Norway. Mm-hmm. Um, and then we started getting a few down around the Canary Islands- Mm-hmm uh, down to Gibraltar, so that's giving us a nod towards where the breeding ground might be. Mm-hmm. And, um, certainly for the first couple of years, when we finally started to match them to the breeding ground, they were all West African animals. They were all Cabo Verde animals. Mm-hmm So, it, about over 20 years ago, our, our, our CEO, Simon Barrow, had this crazy idea based on old whaling records that, uh, you know, he had read some of the old books, and, uh, the Norwegian whalers talked about, uh, you know, their, their Norwegian humpbacks going down off West Africa- Mm-hmm and mentioned the Cabo Verde. So we kinda thought, well, if the, if we're to try and find any matches to the sort of dozen or so humpbacks we had in Ireland, let's go down and look at the Cabo Verde. Uh, so we had- Mm-hmm about three or four expeditions down there, including filming and filming trips, and my colleague, C- Connor Ryan, did a PhD, and he spent a lot of time down there. But really, you know, we were really unsuccessful. Uh, and we- Mm-hmm started kind of almost giving up on looking for the birthplace of these Irish humpback whales. Of course, they're not Irish, 'cause they're not born here. Uh, they're only here for- I know. It's the same for ours. Yeah. They're the, the... Yeah, they're only here for- Yeah feeding purposes. Yeah. Uh, but- Like, their passports would say something different, right? Yeah, for sure. But- Yeah but then we got one. We got, was it number 43 rocked up, uh, found down in Boa Vista in the Cape Verdes, and it was almost like waiting for the proverbial bus. It seemed once one appeared down there, it was almost- Mm-hmm like they had permission to reveal themselves. And it seemed- every six months we were getting another and another and another. Yeah. So we ended up with, with, with like over 10 animals, and they were all from the Cape Verdes. But of more recently then, you guys entered a picture, because we started, um, we started with, with number, uh, you know, our famous- Yes, Hookie animal number 11 on the catalog- Yeah. Yeah uh, off, off Hook Head in County Wexford- Mm-hmm in the southeast of Ireland. Yeah. And as you alluded to, he rocked up with you, and then- Mm-hmm as a result of, you know- Social media a lot of collaboration. Yeah. Um- Yeah he, he turn- he turned, he, the same animal turned up off, um, off the Challenger Bank off Bermuda. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I, I was, I loved the idea that we had a, a nice little triangle there between- Mm-hmm Ireland, uh, three points, Ireland- Yeah uh, Newfoundland, and Bermuda, but as, as a colleague pointed out to me, um, when he said, "Well, you, you idiot," he said, uh, "you know, if you've got any three points, you're always gonna get a triangle." Uh, but I said, "Oh, yeah, I suppose you're right there." But it's a partic- particularly nice triangle. Some triangles- Yes, it is. Very are ho- horrible isosceles triangles. But, uh, no, it's a, it was a great story, and, um, I suppose you've got, you know, it's, it's just- It's a really good example of the importance of international collaboration- Absolutely 'cause the, the story starts with the Irish Whale and Dolphin Group here in Ireland. It ends really with Roger Edgebury. But right in the middle of that, you got the North Atlantic Humpback Whale Catalog. You got- Yeah Sea of Wales, and- Yeah you got Wales Bermuda. So- Yeah it's a lovely way, I guess, of talking a bit about, you know, um, that wonderful collaboration between, uh, commercial operators, uh- Mm-hmm and, and, and, and, and science, and it, it's a brilliant model. It really is. Mm-hmm. And I know this, having managed a whale watching boat down here in West Cork for 10 years, where I worked with Colin closely, with Colin Barnes on the Holly Joe with Cork Whale Watch, um- But, uh, it, it, you know, sometimes, you know, boat operators get a, get a bad reputation because, you know, they see the dollar sign fluttering under their eyelids. But, you know, if you get an operator who's really passionate about marine conservation and who work with, with, with, with, uh, with researchers, it's a great model. It really is. And, uh, well, you know that better than anybody. Uh- Thanks so much. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's important to realize, and I, and I talk about it on the boat every day, we have a data set like we have, it's very extensive, because someone else is paying for us to be on the water every day. Where research teams are only here for, you know, a week or two weeks, or sometimes if they're really lucky, a month or two months of the summer season. Um, and they get great data, but we're here for, for longer and, and it's not, you know, we're having someone else fund that for us. So, um, you know, grateful every day that we have the opportunity to do that, and then feel responsible for, you know, logging data when we're out there so that we do have a more complete picture of what's happening here. So, you know, I think it's a, it's a good, it's a good mix, you know, when you can make it happen, for sure. Yeah. I mean, that l- that longevity of the data is just what enables you guys, and I guess us as well in Ireland, to, you know, t- tell a good story about whales. Because, you know- Mm-hmm some of these animals, it's, uh, as Simon Barrow would say, it's almost like they develop personalities. And you see- Absolutely. Yeah you know, little idiosyncrasies in whales that are kind of unique to that one individual. And you can only tell that story if you've watched that animal over decades. And- Yeah you know, students come and go and, you know, interns and PhD students, and they get their PhD and they go off and they do something imminently more sexy or more exciting. Yeah. Not, not, not that there's anything more exciting than whales, but they go off and they study turtles in Hawaii or something like that. Mm-hmm. Uh, but you know, it's that longevity of the d- and the fact that you guys are there every season and, you know, you, you try and pay for a platform, a boat platform- Yeah a research platform, and you're gonna get a big bill of hundreds of thousands- Yeah of dollars at the end of the season. Whereas you guys, you know, you probably keep a slot for a local researcher. Uh, and, you know, that sort of, you know, just sharing your platform with researchers- Mm-hmm is really invaluable. And look, your data set is, and your data set is bigger than the Irish humpback whale data set. And we've been doing this for nearly 30 years, you know? Yeah. Uh, but it just goes to show- And we're just, uh, one operator. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. No, for sure. Yeah. So yeah. So g- oper- boat operators and research, it's a, it, it, it's a brilliant partnership. It really is, you know? Absolutely. I agree. I agree. And thanks for, thanks for recognizing that, 'cause sometimes I think, like you said, people don't always understand that, so that's really important. Um, what are some of the most... I know you've talked about some of them already, but s- what are some of the most interesting or memorable findings you've had throughout your time there? Uh, findings. Well, I, I suppose The, well, f- I mean, for, for us a really big one was find- finding out where our humpback whales were actually born was a really- Absolutely was a really important one. Yeah. We, we still have absolutely no idea where minke whales or fin whales are born, which is remarkable. I mean, the fin whale is practically the largest creature on the planet. I know. And I don't think anybody knows where they're born on either your side of the Atlantic or our side, and I just find that mind-boggling. Or somewhere in the middle. They could be all, you know, who knows, right? Yeah. It is just- Absolutely. Yeah crazy. Like, you know, presumably assuming fi- finbacks are a little bit like humpbacks, that they're going to warmer areas. I mean, these are big animals. You know- Yeah how can we miss, you know, 75 to 80-foot pregnant female fin whales? They- Uh, I mean, even their babies are, like, 25 to 30-foot long. Like, you know- Yeah I mean, uh. Yeah. I mean, that to me has got to be one of the great, you know... Somebody doing a PhD should set out and go, "I am gonna do one thing in my PhD." Yeah. "I am gonna find out where these darn whales are born." Mm-hmm. Uh, but, uh, you know, we can tell you, you know, lots about our humpback whales because they're easy. Let's face it, humpback whales, they, they have, you know, they just lend themselves to study- Mm. Yeah in a way that maybe fin whales and minke whales don't. But the other- Yeah second interesting thing we found was, you know, that we are recording some of our animals obviously down off the Dominican Republic. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we've got Guadalupe, the Dominican r- r- Republic, and also obviously your whale off Bermuda- Mm-hmm uh, our number 11. So but most of our humpback whales are Cabo Verde or West African breeding animals. Mm-hmm. Um, I suppose sometimes it's simple things, like, um, w- we 20 years ago felt that where we live, where I live now down in West Cork on the south coast, had almost a monopoly on fin whale sightings. Mm-hmm. And, you know, we had fin whales arriving sometimes in big groups, like, you know, a dozen, 20 animals arriving, and our sense was they arrived en masse, uh, in, like, late May, early June, and they kind of then broke up into smaller feeding parties. And then before they left, they amassed into a big group as well. And then it was almost like they, they, they swam off the face of the earth, and they just vanished. But, uh, it was- Yeah when co- when colleagues of mine started picking up fin whales two or three days after we lost them here- Mm-hmm and then we went out and photographed them, and we realized we were photographing the same dorsal fin. So it was a- Yeah simple thing that- Yeah we only matched them about 150 kilometers east of where I live, but it was just a wonderful small local example of, no, when your fails, whales leave your area- Mm believe it or not, they are going somewhere else. That's probably not too far from where you are. Yeah. And we just thought this was mind-blowing, 'cause this was our own little discovery. And now we're getting, our humpback whales are rocking up everywhere. Yeah. Uh, and y- Yeah and you kind of just get blase about it almost. But sometimes it's the small discoveries. I mean, you know, when you get a new species for Ireland, like we had a bowhead whale in, in 2015. We've had a dwarf sperm whale. We've had, uh, the narwhal, uh- Yeah only a couple of months ago. Mm-hmm. So these are the sort of interesting, you know, discoveries. But, you know, a lot of them aren't really discoveries. They're just dead things washing up on your beach, you know? So it's hardly a discovery. Um, but- But you didn't know it was there until it washed up, right? That's the thing. Yeah. And, and it was probably- So- reported as a harbor porpoise or something wrong. Yeah. Uh, so that- Yeah that's what the Irish Whale and Dolphin Group does. We, we just bring an element of, say, r- rigor, uh- Yeah to the biological recording of- Yeah of sightings and strandings. Mm-hmm. A- and it's the fact that we have this really interesting data set now, and we are the go-to group in Ireland, uh, for, for this data. Um, and it's just, we've been very successful. And, and, and you know, we kind of wrote the book in Ireland in terms of digital biological recording. Like, we would've been the first NGO that had a- Mm um, y- y- that had a website with a reporting portal where members of the public could go on- Ah rather than filling in a hard copy data sheet and posting it, uh- Yeah with a stamp in the corner and giving it to the postman to... You know, that was fine- Mm-hmm 30 years ago, but obviously in the modern age it's not really going to wash. And- No now we're into our, our second, you know, uh, version of the app, which we- Mm-hmm have out there. Uh, but yeah, listen, there, there's- Amazing always, every year there's always two or three really interesting sightings. I g- I guess one really nice one that Simon, Simon had when he was down on one of his last trips to the Cape Verdes was during, uh, July At a time when all of the northern hemisphere humpback whales should be well up north feeding up off Ireland or Scotland or Iceland, Norway. Mm-hmm. He was down there in July, uh, with one of his students, and he found humpback whales in July. He had heard this report, and he- Yeah was going, "What the hell?" The breeding season is kind of over by- Yeah May. Uh, so all the females who have had calves down there a couple of weeks ago, they're all, if not all, you know, they're all tracking north back, uh, to you or to us. Uh, but months later, Simon was down there, and he heard this report, so he went to the area, and he found one or two or three humpback whales. And as soon as he saw them, he kind of said, "They're different." Uh- Mm and it was that their pectoral fins were dark rather than white. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So he knew, uh, that they were Antarctic humpback whales. Uh, so he got, he managed to get a biopsy sample with a hollow- Wow uh, cro- crossbow, and he had a license to take a skin biopsy. Um, so this was the first hard evidence, and the DNA come back to say that, yeah- Amazing the sequencing, the genetics, uh- Yeah proved that they were not northern hemisphere, they were southern hemisphere. Um, so it's one of- So then they're opposite season than ours. Opposite seasons. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So it's one of the few places on the planet where you got both hemisphere humpbacks coming. So it- it's kind of put the Ca- Cabo Verde on a... Like, I don't know if- Wild. Yeah I don't, I don't know if any place in the Domin- or in the Caribbean records that. I don't know if that's been documented in Hawaii. Now, somebody might correct me if it has. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's one of the few places on the planet where you've got both hemisphere populations. And I guess it's not entirely possible someday that you'll have a really late female staying on- Yeah and you might well have really early southern hemisphere- Yeah Antarctic animals coming. But there may be some mixing there. Yeah. And, and maybe they mix, and maybe that's a good thing, maybe that's a bad thing. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, uh, but it certainly makes it very diverse. One, one problem with the Cape Verde population is that there's only about 200-plus humpbacks left. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a very small remnant population- It is. Yeah compared to the Caribbean, which has, uh, you know, 12,000-plus. Now, if even every couple of years you've got an inflow of these Rastafarian humpbacks- Yeah. you know, with the big, uh, Bob Marley hats, and they're rocking- Yeah over, uh, to the Cape Verdes. Yeah. Genetically, you have to say it's probably not a bad thing. They are- Mm going to get, um, uh, they are going to get out- outdone by the, uh, just it's a numbers game. Yeah. They will be outbred by the genetically dominant Caribbean population. Yeah. So in terms of mixing, you could say it, it's great for biodiversity and, uh, diversity of the, within the population. Mm-hmm. But it also probably means that the Caribbean animals will very likely outbreed the, that, that- bloodline, if you like- Mm-hmm of the West African, because they are only clinging on there. They are a remnant population. Yes. Yeah. Uh, because there was a lot of whaling going on down in the Cape Verdes, uh- Mm back with the Basque whalers, and it was just- Yes one of those really important areas for whaling on- Mm-hmm this side of the pond. So, yeah. Yeah. So, it, it is all interesting, but, uh- Yeah there's never a dull day. No, never. I, I was not aware of that, so that's amazing. I will do some reading on that, so thank you. And fin whales, I know, I, I feel the exact same way about them. I feel like they're, they have this air of mystery about them because we don't know a lot about their whole life cycle, and so as a result of that, you know, number one, if you're gonna protect a population, you need to know where they breed, where they feed, where they calve, and we're missing two of those pieces of information, which is a lot, and in something that's that big, and that's significant. Um, we have a 30-plus year data set of fin whale, um, ID records that I have never gone through. Just, we continue to collect it, and at some point we will get there, but it just, I mean, it's so mu- they're so much harder to match. They're not as easy. You know, they don't broadcast their identity every time they dive like a humpback or a sperm whale does, and so it is a lot more tricky. And then I think they probably spend a lot of their life in the deep ocean, which would be crazy expensive, you know? So, yeah, it's just, um- Yeah it's really interesting when you look at that. It, it- You know, why hasn't there been more, more, more- Yeah. We, we have a catalog, um, that I started to work on, because like yourselves, we... You know, when people sent us wonderful pictures, yeah, we, we filed them away in, in- Mm a sensible way. And, uh, there was, winter three years ago, I had a little bit of free time, so I said, "No, I, um," w- one of my colleagues, Andrew Malcolm, "Uh, I'm gonna have a look at these," and, uh, we put them into some, some, a catalog that made a little bit of sense and, you know, you give each animal a line on Google Drive- Mm and its data history. Yeah. And, uh, we had really good interannual re-sightings here, so we were getting, uh, quite a few animals that were really well marked. Mm-hmm. Uh, and it wasn't always notches in the dorsal fins. Sometimes they were animals that had been ship struck, sometimes they were animals with big, horrible, you know, or pro- prop- quite likely cancerous growths on them. Um- Mm but, um, yeah, I, I mean, it, it is frustrating for people, 'cause you're always asking people to send you images, and then they send you these gorgeous images of fin whales, and you're going, "Well, we're not really interested." But fin whales- You don't want to do pretty. You're look- and, you know, these really lovely shots per- close, perfectly in focus, but they're just not focusing really on, um, on, on the dorsal fin area. So it, it, it, it really is a problem. You can have lots of people sending you images, and then they can get frustrated because we're not giving you chapter and verse on their life history. Yeah. Uh, but- Yeah I mean, as you say, you know, I would say- They're not the same as the other ones only about one in every five fin whales has a really well-marked dorsal fin. Yeah. And it's remarkable how many of those well-marked dorsal fins are identical. They've got these big notches on- Mm-hmm the base of their tr- you know, the trailing edge. Mm-hmm. And how do they all end up with notches in the same place, and the exact same sort of a notch is a real mystery- Yeah to me. But, uh- Yeah. But then you start- But- comparing chevrons and you're like, "Wait a minute, you're not the same," right? So it's very- Yeah, yeah it's tricky. And of course- It's tricky n- nowadays you got a, a new generation. Of course, up to now it's all been, you know, people out in boats taking pictures of the dorsal fins. Mm-hmm. And now you got people who are droning them, so they are getting these wonderful shots of the chevrons or the- Yeah, yeah the pale wash behind the blowhole- Mm-hmm or marks on the head that... So now we potentially have two parallel catalogs. You've got the dorsal fin catalog, 'cause you've really no way of knowing if somebody's got great, blazing chevron shots. Great from, from angles. You know- Yeah are, are any of those animals already, so you end up with, like, parallel- Mm-hmm fin whale catalogs. Yeah. Uh, uh, so the, the... listen, there's a good reason why every PhD wants to study easier species like humpback whales. Absolutely. And fin, fin whales are just difficult, they really are. But the greyhound of the sea, they, it, it is, you know, watching lunge-feeding fin whales, uh, on the surface is just an amazing, uh- It's awesome that, that- There's no other word, yeah biomechanical force. Mm-hmm. And how they can stop on a tuppenny piece, uh, using- Yeah their jaw, which just opens, and they can break right in the middle of a, of a, of a bait ball of sprat or herring is just- Yeah a gorgeous thing to see, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. I, yeah, I just, I'm, I'm forever impressed by them, um, to be honest, and I, you know, someday, someday we'll get cataloging them and maybe we'll have a better idea. Listen, if we have humpback whales going from here to you, like, you see how fast a, a fin whale can get across a bay or go somewhere. I mean, it's, they are the greyhounds of the sea, so it's not inconceivable to think that we're sharing those whales too, and where they're going- No, and, uh- when they're not in our areas I mean, we do have one very quickly on, I mean, it was the Portuguese group down in, uh, the western Algarve asked us, because they were getting a couple of fin whales, so they asked us to share the catalog with- Mm-hmm with them, which they did. But one of them was a definite. Uh, it had a complete, almost like a bullet hole right in the middle of a, of, of its dorsal fin. Wow. Which I'm sure was probably a parasite, but it was a- Mm-hmm it was a, a clear match. So we have- Yeah already now matched one of them with the Western Algarve. Now, you don't have to go down too much further south of the Algarve and you're, you're off West Africa type thing, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, so it is, again, lending ourselves to this latitudinal north-south migration, but we, we, you know, it's, it is a lovely mystery as to where- Yeah they're going. But presumably- Yeah they are going down to warmer la- latitudes. Um, but, um, yeah, the, the, the, the greyhound of the sea, a wonder- a wonderful animal. Yeah. I know College of the Atlantic, uh, someone named Dan Dandanto used to have a, or was working on a spr- uh, not a Sprimal catalog, a Finmal catalog. And so it, I, you know, I've always thought maybe I'll prepare my data and send it to them and see, like we do with our humpback data, and just see what, see what happens. You never know, right? But I mean, with the, the, the chevron and the blaze and, you know, all of those markings, it's so dependent on, like, having great lighting, and you know what it's like working out there. I mean, some days you just don't have it. No. You just don't. And you can't see- Yeah enough of it to, you know, make it, make it a, a def- definitive match. And so again, the, you know, the reason why everybody's not working on fin whales, it's tricky, right? It's really hard. Yeah, it is. And there, there's so much variability even within season. I re- I remember photographing a, a fin whale down here, and, uh, we, we decided we'd call it Europa, 'cause it had- Mm this perfect map of Europe on its flank. And, uh, I, I saw it four months later and I'm going, "Well-" Europe is now far more like South America. Uh, so, and it's just that their skin is constantly sloughing off. Yeah. So even though they might seem, when you get that brilliant back lit photograph and you can see- Mm-hmm all the blazes and the chevrons and all- Mm the pigmentation changes, that could be gone in a matter of weeks, so it's completely, for f- in terms of photo ID, it's, you know, interannually, it's useless. Yeah, yeah. It's crazy. It's so crazy, I know. Yeah. It's hard to explain- But they- sometimes when some of the other species are so easy, right? That, you know, these guys just- Yeah, yeah kind of like fly under the radar all the time. But like there, there, there is definitely, I mean, you probably heard about our, our right whale that we had here- Yes. Mm in, uh, in July 2024. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a century since a right whale has been photographed in Irish waters, and it was on the flensing deck of a, of a Norwegian whaling station- Yeah, yeah off County Mayo. So not a proper sighting, really. So, um, so yeah, lovely sighting. Caught it breaching. We weren't sure at the start, was it a bowhead whale? Mm-hmm. Uh, but then again, um, it, it became very clear once we got to see the callosities on the head- Yeah and, uh, yeah, this clearly wasn't a bowhead. Uh, so we had our first- Um, it wasn't a first for Ireland, but certainly it was the first record that we had validated, and, uh, as far as we know- Mm quite likely the first record of a North Atlantic right whale in over a century in Ireland. So we sent those images anyway off to Lindsay, who, who jumped ship on us. She went over to the dark side. Yeah, she's over at the right whale people now. Yeah, she left the, she left humpbacks, and she went over- Yeah to, uh, to, to, um, to work with our colleagues in the, uh, the, uh, the aquarium. Mm-hmm. The New England Aquarium. Yeah. Uh, so, so we, we shared all the stuff with them, the images- Mm-hmm the video, and they came back and they, they ran it through their catalog, and they said, "Well, the, the footage isn't great." But it was only when we actually got video footage later that evening, um, that she said, "Oh, now we can really work with this." Mm-hmm. And they immediately went to running it through their catalog of, of, uh... Well, it's not extensive, 'cause let's face it- It's like 300, yeah. we only... uh, 3 or 400 animals. Yeah. And they came back pretty much the next morning to say, "No, we, we cannot match this whale with our catalog." Wow. So great news. We got-- It's, it- Yeah it's a new r- it's a new right whale for the catalog. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So that was great, and then last November they were flying CCS, the Center for Coastal Studies. Yeah. You probably have some relationship with them. Yeah. Uh, they were flying, and they were 23 nautical miles east of Boston. Mm-hmm. And, um, they found an area with humpbacks, and, uh, their, their funding was for right whales, so they weren't all that interested. But in the area where there were humpbacks, they kinda said, "Well, we'll check it out." They found a right whale. Mm-hmm. So immediately the guys from CCS sent the footage, pictures straightaway, uh, down to base, and they came back and they said, uh, "No, we can't match this on the CCS, uh, catalog." And then they decided the day after, "Oh, we'll send the images off to, um, to our colleagues in the, uh, the New England Aquarium." And they came back and said, "No, no match either." And, uh, uh, you know, um, then some bright spark remembered, "Wasn't there this one animal off Donegal in Ireland last July?" Mm-hmm. And they said, "You're right." Mm-hmm. And they looked it up, and bingo, that was our whale. Uh, so- Mm-hmm from northwest, uh, Donegal Bay- Mm-hmm uh, to, to 23 nautical miles east of Boston, and they've subsequently seen it since. They saw it- this February just gone. So now is, we've got sightings of it, Donegal, Ireland in 2024, and off the East Coast in 2025 and 2026. So there's an even rarer example- Yeah of, of a, of a match, and it was the first time ever. I mean, they've had a few, uh, right whales from your side of the Atlantic- Mm-hmm match up, but this was the first time they had an animal- The opposite way. that originated of the Atlantic- Yeah and that matched with your side of the pond. Yeah. So it was a really significant sighting, and they've just- they- what they actually do is they get an artist to come in, I think Dave is his name, and they've just showed us the artist's impression of that whale. So the aerial shot where they put in all the callosities- Mm-hmm and all the, you know, the, the, uh, the lin- linear scars and- Yeah so we, we now have the profile of that, the aerial profile of that whale. Mm. Yeah. Um, but it's just, that is a great story, but you, you know, if, if we, we have one right whale in Ireland, and we have managed to match it, uh, to, to, to the Boston area- Yeah you know, there's plenty of opportunity. Who's to say we can't match some of our, our finbacks, you know? That's right. You never know. Well, we'll be talking, 'cause, uh, you know, challenge accepted. Hey- We'll be- If it was easy, any- everybody would be doing it. That is so true. And that's why everybody does humpback whales. Uh, but I- Yeah I, I, I, I always say to, to people who are starting, IWDG don't do easy. Unless it's, uh, un- un- unless you're sitting on a clifftop with snot freezing on your nose, and you're bloody miserable- you're doing something very wrong. You- Yeah there's gotta be a, there's gotta be an element of being miserable in it. Yes. Right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's not easy sometimes working out in the field, that's for sure. Um, for you for this summer, you know, I know you were telling me a little bit earlier that there's some, you're seeing some changes. Um, so what kind of changes are you seeing for this summer, and then what are you looking at in terms of what will you be doing throughout the field season? Well, I think one of the, the, the changes we've noticed over 20 years is that species are arriving earlier. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, I would say basking sharks and humpback whales and fin whales, um, tend to be arriving ear- You know, so 20 years ago, if we were having this chat, I would've said that our first animal of season would probably be, you know, late August. We really never had humpback whales earlier than that. Mm-hmm. Now it's mid-spring from, you would expect to see them from late March almost, the first of them. Now, this year has been a complete, um, uh, a very peculiar year because we really haven't hardly had a single humpback whale sighting yet. We've had one record of three animals, but it was just, you know, y- if you remove that outlier, our humpback whales, we are a l- getting a little bit concerned- Mm-hmm um, that our humpback whales. Now, Pedrin, who's our, one of our colleagues down in the Cabo Verde, has said this year their males arrived very late- Mm-hmm s- in, in, in the Cabo Verde breeding area. So I guess- Mm-hmm it's possible if the males were arriving late, well, then the whole breeding cycle- Breeding delay was delayed. Yeah. Uh, so it, it may just mean that they were all late leaving. Um- Mm-hmm but, um, th- that's kind of bit of speculation on my part. We're- Mm-hmm kinda just looking for hopeful excuses, but, like, there's- nobody else here really saying, "Oh yeah, we're getting lots of humpback whales." Uh- Mm-hmm in which case, you know, photo ID would probably tell us that they were our Irish animals. Um, but no- nowhere, none of our colleagues in Scotland or England, they're not really talking about seeing lots of humpback whales, uh, rocking up. And, like, for us- Mm lots of humpback whales is three or four animals. For you, it's probably, you know, three or 400 animals. You're talking about different scales here. Yeah. Um- Yeah but, uh, so we are a little bit concerned that our humpbacks are very, very late this year. Mm-hmm. whether they did come through here, and they didn't like what they saw in terms of availability of forage- Mm-hmm. Yeah and they decided, "Oh, well, bugger that. We're gonna continue on." Mm-hmm. Um, if that's the case, well then we're, it's deeply depressing, but we just don't know yet. Yeah. Uh, I mean, climate change is changing lots of things down here, and everybody says the same thing. Even our fishery scientists would say all our fish species, everything is tracking north. And talking to people like, um, like Fred Venzke on your side and down- Mm-hmm in the States, he'd say all the fish biologists are saying the same thing. Everything, menhaden, everything is, is tracking further and further north. Mm-hmm. Uh, presumably looking for colder and colder water, you know? Yeah, presumably. Um, but, um, but yeah, that's kind of a, a, a, a big thing for us. Uh, but even our minke whales aren't here in numbers. Like, I, I, I, like, only not so long ago I remembered go- going out on a four-hour trip and counting 67, 60- Yeah 70 minke whales- Mm in a four-hour trip. Like, really impressive. Nu- numbers that y- you would probably appreciate. Mm-hmm. But there's very few places in the world where you can go out on a four-hour trip, and to the point where you almost give up count... You're ta- you're counting minke whales in dolphin numbers. Yeah. Just silly numbers. Yeah. That seems, that's only, like, five to 10 years ago, but it, that almost seems now like a lifetime ago for me. I know. It's the same for us. Uh, we are l- Yeah we are losing a lot of our biomass of whales. Mm-hmm. And it's just, you ask everybody, our wa- our coastal inshore waters are becoming barren. Mm. And that is a depressing thing to say. Yes. Uh, and it would seem to me, I'm, I'm wondering, wha- why are our waters s- so good for basking sharks, and yet becoming increasingly not great forage habitat for whales? Mm-hmm. And, you know, stop me if you think this is crazy, but what do all these forage fish feed on? Mm. You know, what do millions and billions of herring or sprat or sand- sand eels or, you know, menhaden in your case, or capelin, whatever- Mm uh, forage fish attract your whales. Well, they're all swimming around in massive shoals, and they're feeding on plankton, zooplankton- Mm-hmm which is like- Mm-hmm copepods and larval, you know- Yeah lar- larval forage fish. Everything. But- Yeah everything. So if, if the young of everything is essentially zooplankton, um, and what feeds on the young of everything i, is largely gone, well, then- Mm-hmm you end up with, you know, masses of primary productivity out there- Mm-hmm in terms of copepods and little jellies, and- There's nothing to feed on them. Yeah. So you quite conceivably are looking at an explosion, uh, i- in a sea that's basically only got plankton left in it. Mm-hmm. Zooplankton. And who does that benefit? Mm-hmm. Well, whales don't eat plankton. No. Basking sharks feed on plankton. Yeah. So I'm just kind of wondering, uh, and I'm sure there's marine ecologists out there who will say, "Well, that's a probably quite a simplistic way," but until somebody gives me a, a different explanation- Mm-hmm as to why our waters have become so productive- Mm-hmm such rich feeding habitat, I would say it's, we need to explore. Is it because there's no small pelagic shoaling fish left? Mm-hmm. Or we've certainly wiped them out. Yeah. And why have we wiped them out? We've wiped them out so we can convert them into fish meal to feed salmon in, in, in fish farms- Mm-hmm up in Norway and, and, and Scotland and the like. So I- Mm-hmm I think we are, in effect, starving our marine megafauna, our wild native animals, uh, to feed animals in fish farms. But whatever's happening here, there is lots of food for basking sharks, and it would seem that our waters are no longer attracting our humpbacks, our fin whales, and even our minke whales- Mm-hmm in ways that we had down here only 10 years ago. So in, i- i- in even the last decade, I can sense, and I'm talking to anglers, I'm talking to commercial fishermen- Yeah, yeah sailors. I got sailors saying to me, "God, when we sailed along the Cork coastline, it was like wall-to-wall dolphins, and we'd see spouting whales every day." Mm-hmm. What, what's happened? Yeah. And it's happened over a relatively short space of time. Mm-hmm. So if, for whoever is listening, just because you have them now doesn't mean you'll have them tomorrow. That's right. So take good care of them. That's right. That's an excellent point. There are so many kind of scary changes happening, and I think you, like you said, try to come up with reasons why this might be happening, being cautiously optimistic about, oh, it could be this or it could be that, and you just hope that it's a short-term change and not a long-term change, right? Because it's, it's scary to think about what could happen, you know? So what big changes are you guys seeing? I mean, is any of this resonating- Oh, yeah with what you're seeing on the ground? I would say, I'm, I'm at, on my 28th season here whale watching, and I choke on that 'cause I, in my head am still only 28 years old. Um, and I remember my first, like, you know, say, 10 or 15 years here, there was literally a minke whale in every cove, every cove. Um, and now, you know, we might see a couple of minkes, maybe three in an entire day, and that would be, you know, a good day in terms of minke sightings. And, you know, you have to wonder, is there... You know, there have been, um, commercial whaling quotas that included minke whales, and we, again, with minkes, don't know where they're breeding and calving, so, uh, you know, they, they can travel really fast, they can travel really far. Are they being targeted by whaling in other places and that's why we're seeing such a decline in numbers, or is it something else in the system that's causing that? And I don't, I don't have an answer for that one, you know? Um- Yeah, yeah we are seeing, this year we have two, we've had two mother-calf pairs in and out of the area for a couple of weeks now. We would normally see moms and calves at the end of the season. Why are they here? Are they this year's calves, um, or are they last year's calves? And it's really- Like these humpbacks hard to know. Yes, yeah. Okay. Um, and so what, you know, if it, if they were this year's calves and the moms had to come up sooner because they were starving, you know, you would think that, you know, mom would be looking pretty skinny, you know. So you can see that top line where the vertebrae are sticking out. We don't see that. So- Yeah why are you here so early? Mm. And, you know, um, to be holding up in an area for as long as one, one pair has been, it's, it's really interesting. She's been- feeding on small herring right against the cliffs. Um, so both lunge feeding and trap feeding, so where she just sits there with her mouth wide open, um- Mm uh, which is sort of wild to see. While the calf, I, I feel like some days we were almost being used as a babysitter, like, "Go over there and play with that boat while I'm over here feeding," you know, kind of thing. Um, so definitely seeing things like that. Definitely seeing a decline in the numbers of capelin. Um, and, uh, I, I just recorded an episode, um, with, uh, someone who studies, um, the prey species here specifically, and talking about some of the work that they're doing trying to figure out, you know, what is happening with that and why aren't we seeing the same numbers as we were before. So kind of the same... I, I think, you know, the species are different. Uh, sometimes they're different, sometimes they're not in terms of, you know, what, what these animals are eating as they move around the oceans. But the trends that we're seeing, we're all seeing, right? Mm-hmm. All the way across the board. Mm. Um, and, you know, solving those problems may be, uh, you know, a lot, you know, it's... They're going to be different reasons for decline in each species, or maybe, maybe it's something that's a much wider issue that, you know, we just don't, we don't see yet. But it's, it's scary to think about the changes we're going to see. Yeah. For sure. You know, when Lindsay changed from, um, doing the humpback cataloging to doing the right whale cataloging, I said to her, you know, "If what they, if the projections are right, you and I'll be working again together before we know it," kind of thing. Mm. So, you know, there have been, um, a couple of right whales that have shown up in this area, but they don't stay very long, and they're sort of anomalies I think. But, um, you know, as, as the water warms, like you said, these species are gonna go further and further north- Yeah to find the optimal cooler temperatures, and eventually- Yeah, yeah there won't be anywhere further north to go, right? So- Yeah, yeah, yeah um, you know, it's, uh, it, it- You, you mentioned capelin there. Are, are those capelin being targeted for, for the plate or for processing into fish meal? So I think, uh, originally they were mostly fished for the roe, um- Okay for the plate. Uh, and, uh, when I first started here in '99, um, you know, if, if the catch was too high a percentage of males, then they would just dump it. Uh, now we're not seeing that anymore, and I think it's being used for fish meal as well as, so they separate out the males and females, and they have very different pathways, um, you know, where, where they're going and, and how they're being processed, so at least it's not being wasted. Um- Mm but yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's very different. And then herring right now is very important. Where the capelin are not in close to shore yet, um, the herring are, are an important species, so everything that we see feeding right now is feeding on herring, so yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, the her- herring here w- where we are in West Cork right now, I mean, that stock was considered to be endemic to the local area, and I, I know Colin Barnes, when he was talking to the fishermen, um, back in the '70s when they were doing a lot of the damage, uh, you know, he would say like, you know, you Because he had come from England, the south coast of England, and he, he would, would've been saying to them, "You know, I've seen this happen in the south coast of England, and I you're going the same way that we went 15, 20 years earlier in England." Yeah. And the herring never returned. Yeah. And Colin would always say that the herring, as our sprat, they're endemic to a local area. And the herring were, the last herring were fished out here back in the late 1980s, and they have never recovered, and they have- Mm been, there's been a Celtic Sea Herring Management Board set up. Uh, there's been sort of zero quota for herring. They have been given absolute top protection, and there are still no herring. Mm. So the ecology of herring is very similar to the ecology of sprat. Mm-hmm. And Colin has been leading a one man, and now he's got lots of support. Everybody's jumping- Mm-hmm on the, the, the, you know, on, on this bandwagon- Mm-hmm save our sprat type thing. Yeah. Uh, myself included. Uh, but, you know, unless you protect the forage fish, and it's not just whales and dolphins, it's the sea birds, and it's all- It's everything the commercial species. It's everything. Mm-hmm just actually at a big conference yesterday, um, a marine protected area conference in Cork- Mm-hmm which was really, really interesting. Um, but, um, you know, we, we got a, Europe has given us a designate, all European member states have to declare 30% of the waters marine protected areas, um, by 2030, which I still think now after seven years is very optimistic. Mm-hmm. But the government is still saying, "No, no, we will be able to deliver this." And it should be a game changer because, you know, the areas that we're going to designate on will be based on good data and that- Mm-hmm that's why we're an evidence-based organization, you know? Yeah. Um, but, you know, there, you know, we gotta bring the fishing community on board, you know? But they, they can see the writing on the wall themselves. Yeah. Fishing is dying an absolute death here, and it's the common fisheries policy in Europe. It's not necessarily the fisherman's fault. Mm-hmm. Um, the system has enabled them, you know, fish out stocks, and a lot of our fish that's been taken out aren't even Irish boats. They're international boats. Mm-hmm. Because, okay, we're a small terrestrial area, but we've got a very large coastline. You know- Mm-hmm Irish waters represent something like 20% or something of all EU waters are, are- Mm-hmm are Irish, you know? Yeah. Um, so yeah, I, I do feel sorry for fishermen, but, you know, we just need to stop. all large-scale pelagic fishing, certainly in coastal waters, and give these small pelagics an opportunity to recover. Mm-hmm. Because there is a wider community outside of, you know, big pelagic pair trawlers. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, uh, a- and at the moment our waters are depressingly becoming quite barren, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, so, uh, but anyway, as whale watchers, we're an optimistic bunch. Yeah. And you never know. I keep saying it to people, every time you go out onto the clifftops, you never know. And, you know, we might be losing some of our whales, but on the plus side, we seem to be gaining, you know, species that are, you know, every couple of years we get a new species. And- Yeah who knows, maybe the, maybe the next sighting of dolphins that are reported to us will be false killer whales or something- Mm-hmm really super exciting. So you never know what you're going to see. Whale, you know, whale watching is a, and I don't need to tell you this, but, I mean, I probably now at this stage do most of my whale watching from shore. Yeah. And just sitting there with a scope or a pair of binoculars, watching out and watching distant vapor plumes on the horizon, it's, it's still probably the thing that brings me most joy. Sitting on land or out in a boat and watching a whale and, and knowing that it's Monday, everybody else is in the office, and you're out- and you're, you're the only person who's- And this is my office. Yeah, yeah and th- this is my office, and I am the only person who's likely to see this whale. Of course, the, with, with- Yeah social media, that doesn't happen nearly as much now as it used to. Mm-hmm. But, uh, but anyway, it, it, it has been an amazing, uh, an amazing journey. And for me, it started in Canada. Mm-hmm. So thank you, Canada. Awesome. Amazing. It's, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you, and I think it's so important for people to understand that even though it is a big ocean, these animals travel so far, and the problems that we have are not unique to the areas that we're in. In most cases, it's something that we're all seeing. So it's really important to talk about it and talk to each other. Um- Yeah and so, you know, I really, really appreciate you, um, talking to me today, and I cannot wait to hear about when you see your first humpbacks this season, 'cause they're coming. We- I can feel it. We, we will let you know. Okay. Listen, it's been lovely to talk, and keep up the good work and the passion. Thanks so much. You too. Take care.