Welcome to Sea of Whales, the whale geek podcast, where whale-watching and whale research meet. I'm your host, Shawna Prince, scientist and whale watch operator, bringing you conversations with whale researchers and ocean experts from around the globe. Let's dive in. Today we're joined by Tanya Lebansky of College of the Atlantic and Allied Whale director of photo identification research for North Atlantic humpback whales. Welcome, Tanya. Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Um, I think we're gonna start today just by, um, talking about how you got into marine science. So how'd you end up here? Oh, that's like a long, meandering tale. I think everyone's is. But, yeah, yeah. I, um, didn't jump right into whale research right away, and I always knew that I loved... I love the ocean, but I most importantly, like, was really passionate about and just environmental science. So in both my undergraduate and graduate careers, I was kind of warped into all kinds of different research, both, like, terrestrial and marine stuff. And in my brain, my, like, my soul just kept coming back to the ocean. Like, I would do different experiences in, like, the desert or in, um, like tropical areas, and then e- every time I was on a boat, I just felt like I was most at home. And, um, it was actually in my current position that I ended up really falling in love with the Gulf of Maine when I took an internship with the group that I'm currently working it with right now. And it was on a whale watch boat, and we were documenting the different, um, humpback whales and fin whales on all of the boats that we were seeing, and entering all of that data. And there was something just incredibly satisfying in that that clicked with me, and my brain started going into so many different questions, and that was, like, basically right before I started my doctorate work. And so through my doctorate, I kept interacting with the groups that were cataloging whales, and started developing research projects that were specifically with that data, and, um, kind of just never looked back. Um, started also working at an offshore research station that, um, the College of the Atlantic, where we're based, operates. And it's a tiny little island just, um, 25 miles out into the ocean where it's like it feels like you're on a boat, but you're on land and can actually, like, cook in a kitchen but see a whale swim by, and it's just, it's amazing. And yeah, just started keep continuing to spend lots of time out there and didn't really wanna go anywhere else. That's awesome. Yeah. What's the name of the island? A Mount Desert Rock. Awesome. I've heard of that before- Mm actually. Yeah. It literally is a rock. It's a top of an underwater mountain, and there's no real vegetation except for, like, weird shrubs and things that lighthouse keepers had brought out, like, a century ago. Neat. Um, it's just a ton of, ton of granite. What a great experience. Yeah. Uh, let's talk about the catalog. So how many humpback whales are in the catalog, like, this morning? Yeah. I actually looked anticipating you asking that because- You knew I was gonna ask that? Yeah it changes every week. We're constantly continuing to catalog new individuals, and at this moment as we speak, it's 13,373 A lot of threes in there. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. It's a lot of whales. It is a lot of whales. It's a lot of whales. And I will say, like some of, some of those are dead whales, so we keep track of both living We don't remove any that we are know have died from there. Mm-hmm. We just have a different category within our database for them. Right, because they've been cataloged throughout their life at some point, right? Yes. And we have no idea, of course, how many of those whales that have been cataloged are still living. Yeah, we don't. Yeah. We only get the reports of those that are dead, and a lot that are dead we can't actually identify 'cause a lot of the skin has been already- Mm-hmm sloughed off of their flukes. We had one this week that, uh, was entangled and came ashore just south of us, um, the next bay down. And so received several pictures but not able. And of course, you know, when you use, um, Happy Whale and you try to use the algorithm but there's ropes in the way- Mm-hmm and there's all kinds of things happening in terms of damage- Yep it makes it really, really hard. So- Yeah while it would be really nice to know who it was, sometimes it's just not possible, um, to tell. Yeah. So, yeah. If you do I will say, if you do have good fluke pictures, you can send them to us and we can try to run them through our catalog too. Sure. I definitely will. I'll send those to you when we we're finished today. Thanks so much for that. Yeah. Um- Mm-hmm I know we have had a couple of really significant matches over the years with the catalog. Um, and it seems like every time you guys get to processing a batch of our data, there's some other kind of weird and wonderful thing that comes up. That's probably Maybe it feels like it's like that just for me 'cause it's my data, and probably other people feel like that too. Um, so I know we had First, we had a furthest eastern traveling western North Atlantic humpback whale to the Azores, and then the f- the next year we had one to Franz Josef Land, Russia, which smashed the record. We've had a match with Ireland. Yeah. And now we've had this new match with, um, Cabo Verde or Cape Verde. It depends on who you talk to, how you say it. Um, you wanna talk a little bit about that one? Yeah, I would, I would just say in there too, like we, because we have so much data, we definitely have like these really large scale patterns that are the norm. And, um, I think the ones that we like continue collecting data, they keep kind of affirming that norm, and we see these big patterns and we can kinda synthesize that. And then it's the weird ones that get us like really excited really. Absolutely. And it feels like the more we keep cata- cataloging, the more that those weird ones start popping up, and it makes you wonder like, okay, is this, is the norm really the norm, or is there so much more that's going on there and we just don't have the data to totally understand it? And, um, this is like one of those things. And I feel like, so the Cabo Verde islands are off the coast of Africa, and it is currently designated as a distinct population segment for the humpback whale, and one of, um, the only that is really currently classified as an endangered population because their numbers are so low. Mm-hmm. Um, as the effort has been increasing in that area in terms of whale watches and as the population it seems to continue growing, we're getting more and more data, and starting to connect and see some more of those patterns. Um, historically, as we are collecting and documenting this data within our catalog, most of our matches show those whales in that like distinct no- norm pattern. So like that norm pattern where those whales coming down to the, um, coast of Africa to breed, and then going exclusively along the, um, the eastern part of the North Atlantic to head up to the like northern Norway feeding grounds in those areas. And humpbacks, they typically like, they're, they're pretty... They have a lot of fidelity to their feeding grounds. I recently did like a large scale analysis of feeding grounds, and there's not a lot of mixing that happens in between those. And so it, you feel like if we have all these individuals that are always doing that, that's how it is. And then we've started getting a few weird sightings. Um, we had a few of the Cape Verde animals, um, pop up in some Greenland data, and we've had a few of those, and that was matches. And then your match, Shauna, came like on a total surprise, and it was actually really fun because I had just taught a student, um- From our college, had to be using the algorithm, and he was, like, running stuff, and he found that match and was like, "Whoa, is this a cool one?" And I was like, "Yeah." "It's a really, really cool one." Is this that thing? And I was showing- And you're like, "Oh, it definitely is." Yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah. Um, one of, one of your whales, um, to matching the, um, Cape Verde population. And, um, it's an interesting find and it's also, like, a very, very relevant find when we start thinking about the larger scale conservation of these animals too. Because if we are thinking and assuming that our endangered population is only traveling one certain trajectory, but in reality they have a wider range and we have, um, individuals that are There's more mixing than we thought, then that really changes the way that we think about the conservation and the protection of those species. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. But yeah, it's interesting. Mm-hmm. And also I will say, like the ones that are popping up in Greenland, it is an area too where there's still like a subsistence hunting that is going on in that area. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So- Um- definitely, definitely some interesting conservation implications about the western, western moving CVI whales. Yeah. Do we have any, um, idea about what is happening with the numbers of that population? Was that population always smaller than ours on this side of the Atlantic? Um, has the population been declining in recent years or increasing? Like, do we even know anything about that? Um, so you know, we don't have data from forever. Mm-hmm. And so it's really hard to look back at, like, historic populations and know exactly what was going on at that time. But we can tell you from looking at the data that we've collected, um, that has been submitted to our catalog in the past, like, 10 years or so, the population seems to be increasing. Um, the number of d- individual whales that we continue to document keeps going up and up and up, almost at, like, an exponential rate. Mm-hmm. So it feels like that population is growing. Um, one interesting thing, so one of my colleagues, Fred Wenzel, has been doing a lot of work with the data there, and then he communicates with the whale watches in those areas, and had spent some time in the field there in... a long time ago. And he's been working a lot with that data and seeing, um, while that population is increasing, we don't know what is happening to the calves. So the calves have a very low return rate. We've had, like, only a h- a handful of calves reappear in that area. Hmm. Um, so it do- we don't know if the population is increasing because different individuals are moving in. Like, we've had- Mm a few matches between the CVI area off the coast of Africa and, like, the Lesser Antilles breeding grounds. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So there is a little bit of mixing in that, so we don't know if there's, like, individuals coming in, um, or if the population's actually growing, like the calves are coming and surviving and we're just not, not documenting them or seeing them. Hmm. But yeah, where, where the calves are is, like, a mystery right now. And no one's seeing them anywhere else. You know, I'm thinking maybe they stay on the- feeding grounds and don't need to go to the breeding grounds right away, you know? Yeah, yeah. Well, we had, we had one really cool match, and that's actually gonna be published in a short note this next month or so, um, where a mom and calf from CVI were captured and documented and then seen, um, I forget the number of days, but it was very, very quick, fast, rapid travel, and documented- Hmm um, up in northern Norway- Wow or waters together, um- Yeah not too far after that. Mm-hmm. With fast, yeah, fast moving mama, mama and calf, and they made it, and they were okay. So that's, like- Wow one, one document that we've had and seen- Yeah them, that first-year calf actually make it to the feeding ground. But there have been some, like, with orca scars, so we don't know if there's some predation and, um, something that's going on. Or, or yeah, as you were saying, they're just hanging out in the feeding grounds. We've gotten a lot more... Um, we've had some winter data coming in from places in Europe and Norway and Russia. Mm-hmm. And so we don't know a lot about those individuals that overwinter, 'cause not a lot of people are on the water taking pictures- No in the winter. Yeah. Yeah. So it could be that they're, they're just not coming down to breeding right now. And they're alive somewhere interesting. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting that they're sort of spreading out a little bit when they are moving out of their breeding and calving area, but that doesn't give them increased, um, like it doesn't expand their family tree any if they're all going back to the same very small breeding area with just 400 individuals. Yeah. Right? So that's a- Yes that's a concern for sure. Yeah. So I mean, they're similar in size to what we're looking at with the North Atlantic humpback whale, or with the North Atlantic right whale population, right? Mm-hmm. So when you look at that and, and we're in a situation where a lot of those trees don't branch anymore, right? So there's just nowhere for them- Yeah yeah. And I think, so and with, yeah, with humpbacks luckily, like the global population is doing quite well. Mm-hmm. And there is not... Like, if one population is decimated, it's sad, but it's not the loss of that species. So it is a slightly different with the North Atlantic right whale. Mm-hmm. Um, but one thing that is interesting too, while the sample size and, um, there's some issues with some genetics data, there is some genetics data coming from- Mm-hmm that population too, and it, it doesn't suggest that it's like an unhealthy population- Hmm in the way that, like, some of those other really small populations that are separated are. So that makes you think that there is some more mixing than we realize too. Yes. Yeah. I think there are... I, I always talk about this on the boat, that we as humans like to put things in categories and put them in little boxes. Yeah. So like, these whales- Yeah stay on their side of the Atlantic, these whales stay on their side of the Atlantic. They go north and south. Yeah. That's how everything happens. That's how it is. But the problem is that whales can't read the things that we write, and they do things for very different reasons. Mm-hmm. And many of those reasons we may not ever understand. Um, and so these anomalies that we continue to have are really, like you said, very interesting. They're teaching us more than the, the norms are teaching us. So, you know, are these movements that would've happened before when the population was much larger, or is there another reason for why they're moving, um, further and, you know, north and further east than they ever did before, or west in some cases with, um, with the Cabo Verde whales? So I mean, who knows? It's- It's anybody's guess really. Yeah. You know? Yeah, it is hard when you can't actually just, like, have a conversation with the animals that you're studying and try to have them tell us what they're doing. Like, we ha- we get these little snapshots of data- Mm-hmm and then try to make these, like, really big assumptions. And- Yeah so many different things that can be going on. I always think back, um, my graduate advisor studied elephants, and he was, like, modeling their habitat movements, and you would see individuals that just do really weird things when you tag them. Like, some of them, they're like, "Oh, yeah, we're only gonna go this far because it makes sense. The food is right here, and we don't have to go any further." And then some would go really, really far. Mm-hmm. And he would equate it to, like, okay, if you like to get coffee from this very specific Starbucks, you really like Starbucks and you really need Starbucks, like, you're gonna be willing to travel and jump in your car and go a half an hour- Yeah so that you don't have to drink this, like, gas station coffee, you know? This is what you want. So- Yeah you might spend a little extra energy and do something a little bit weirder and go- Mm-hmm that direction. And, like, we can just talk to each other about those preferences, but the animals, like, we are just trying to figure out what they're doing. And- Yeah you know, some places send lots of data in to us, and some places we don't. So, like, when we have really high effort in certain areas, we, uh- Like, it's just easy to, like, bias your assumptions based on, like, where you're getting data or what you're- Mm-hmm analyzing or what you're doing. When in reality- Yeah like there's so much that we just, we can't see and know. No, it's true. It's super interesting. But that's also, like, why it's so cool to look at. Like, I feel like why I keep really interested in this job is because, like, every time we get a new pocket of data, we find something different and, um- Absolutely like the whales, like, just keep surprising us, and it's really cool. Yep, and you're finding unexpected things, you know- Exactly literally all the time, right? I know there was- Yeah a study done, I don't know if it was before your time there, with our, some of our data and scarring from orca attacks on the tails that we had submitted, and then equating that- Hmm with sort of the prevalence of attacks of orcas on, on humpback whales. And it was super interesting. Our feeding ground had the highest incidents of orca- Yeah, so that was- Uh, you know before my time, but I read that paper- Yeah and it was super surprising to me, 'cause I- Yeah yeah, I would not have thought that your area would have been the highest. So, I mean, the question is, do we have more orca predation, or are the orcas that we have here less successful at actually making a kill? Yeah. I don't know. I mean- That's true right? They're just, like- So scraping their, and- Yeah yeah, the scars are left but they didn't kill the whale. Because you're not able to equate Like, the scars are from animals that have survived an attack, not the ones that didn't survive. Yeah. Because we have no evidence of the ones who didn't survive. And so that's, that's the thing- Totally when you're working with these data sets, like, you're very much a detective trying to figure out what's happening, and the clues you have are just these photographs that sometimes are few and far between for some areas, and sometimes they're really well documented. And even, you know, seeing differences in animals and the things that they've encountered, obviously through in- you know, entanglements or orca attacks or, or, um, prop marks or whatever, you know, from one year to the next or sometimes a several-year gap is super interesting, like you said, when, you know, you really wish you could just talk to them 'cause man, the stories they would tell. Yeah. Right? So crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's totally just like forensic science, and I have, like, I've taught a lot in education and I always tell, like, ecology students, they want to be outside and they wanna be out on the field and collecting data. Mm-hmm. And in reality, so much of ecology is, like, math and sitting- And at a computer at your computer and, like- Yeah trying to make sense of- Yeah like, really, really weird data. And yeah, a lot of, a lot of statistics. Just like, enjoy your summer because the rest of the year you'll be at your computer. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, it's so true. It's so true. Yeah, I, um- That orca study I talk about a lot just because we do have, uh, we have a, a lot of whales that have scarring on them, and presumably that's- Yeah mostly happening when they're calves, um, not when they're adults. Yeah. We've not ever really seen an attack on an adult humpback, um, but we have had them- Do you see orcas in your area? Oh, yes. Mm-hmm. We have a catalog. Oh, yes. A lot. Yeah. Oh, you do? Yeah. Of course you do. We do, and they are, um, feeding mostly on minke whales when they're here, and we do witness- Uh-huh kills, and it's, uh, you know, you kind of hope to have- Wow like a group on there that's not It's hard to watch an apex predator Super selfish. It's hard to watch. Totally. And they have- Totally you know, um, we have watched them, like, pull it apart. They have brought almost like a gift to the boat. So, like, they're over here feeding and then- Wow they brought the minke whale dorsal fin to the boat and, like, left it at the boat and, like, swam away. Like, wild, weird stuff. Wow. Um, yeah. Talking about, like, wanting to speak to animals. Why are they doing that? Like, what, what is that about? Yeah, right? That is so interesting. Yeah. Um- That is so interesting we've also witnessed, like, the whole, you know, like the, the reputation that humpbacks have for being, like, the superheroes and, like, intervening. So we have also witnessed humpbacks intervening when a fin whale calf was being attacked. So, like, interspecies, like this, this needs help. Interesting. Right? Um- Wow and so they were a little too late to stop it, but they were- Yeah in the mix and in the middle of it all and when it was all going down- Interesting which was really interesting, like came out of nowhere. Yeah. And the humpback wasn't attacked at all during that process? No. It was just ignored. Interesting. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and so maybe, like, those scars are coming from those types of situations, like not necessarily from them being the target as the prey, but more from them being there during that process and getting nicks and scrapes and grazes. I don't know. Yeah. It's so wild. But Shawna, you should write a book. Some of the things we see. I'm just thinking of, like, all of, like, the collective things that you see and all of the stories and, like, the insights. It's so, so interesting. I'm gonna make a list. It would be, like, so cool to just, like, synthesize it. Thanks so much. Yeah. I'm gonna send- When all your spare time I'm gonna send you the entanglement picture, and then I'm gonna write a book. I got it. Okay. Yeah. Thanks so much. Sure. I think I definitely could. I mean, there's certainly some weird and wonderful things we see out there, and then, and then it's the trying- Yeah to make sense of what you've seen after the fact. And even when you're on the same boat with, like, 10 or 12 different people, sometimes their- Hmm perception of what was happening is different, or even I find- Right sometimes the angle on the camera that's in the bow is different than someone who shot it from the stern. And so you can kind of make a more complete picture. Um- Right. Interesting there was, um, a documentary, Ocean Explorers, that was on Disney+ a little while back. Okay. And they- Okay were supposed to be out doing humpback work, and they ended up having an orca attack, and they have all the- Whoa technology at their fingertips. I don't know if you've seen this. Yeah. But they were able to, like- No, I haven't fully in 3D recreate the attack and who orchestrated it and who was in charge and, like, what these certain whales did at certain times, like the whole playbook. Wow. Like, watching something out of- Like an NFL playbook, only it was orcas orchestrating an attack on this mother and calf. And it was- Wow wild, like what, what they can show us when they have drones in the air, people with cameras everywhere- Yeah you know, things in the water. Like, it was a very different, um, experience than when you're only seeing, like, from the surface. One. And we miss so much- Totally because we're only observing them from the surface. Like, their, their world is... You know, they have the depth part that we don't, we don't get to see most of what's happening down there. And so- Oh you know, how much do we miss? And- Again, just like- Yeah tiny snapshots in time. Yeah. It's so spooky and then- I think about that all the time. Yeah. With communication and stuff too. Yes. Like we're- Yeah um, training our interns this week just of, we define this as an association. These animals are traveling together. Mm-hmm. Those animals are not traveling together. Mm-hmm. Just because this is how the science always does it. But in reality- Yeah like they're all talking underwater, you know, those whales that are feeding- Yeah not very far away from- They can communicate with each other this whale that's feeding long distances. Yeah. Yeah. It's so, again, like back to your just humans putting things into these weird categories just because this is how we do it. But in reality, like- We like things in boxes. Yeah, we like things in boxes. We like to like put a label on it, like this is an association. And- Mm-hmm um, but in reality it's just so- So much we don't understand and know. Absolutely. 'Cause we're only seeing what's happening right here. Yeah. I'm loving all the, um, like, people who are doing drone work and some of the things they're able to- Yes see because we can't see them from that, um, you know, that. Totally. And when I talked to, um, Porikuli in Ireland, he was saying that now they have to have, like, two catalogs because all of their- Mm-hmm fin mail cataloging was from, like, the water. So it's just, like, the side of the dorsal fin. Yep. And now you have them being taken from the top, and you can't always correlate... Like, you can't match those two whales together because the angles are- No completely different, right? So at Allied Whale, we're actually talking about this a lot right now because, um, our... We have a North Atlantic fin whale catalog too. Mm-hmm. But it's been relatively dormant for the last 10 years, but historically, um, recorded, like, thousands of individuals throughout the Gulf of Maine and a little bit beyond. And we're interested in reviving it, but now a lot of people... Like, some people are taking them from above. Mm-hmm. But... And which is great for, like, a local catalog, but only so many people actually have a drone. So when you're- Yeah starting to collect from, like, whale watches and other contributors and trying to make these bigger scale patterns, it's, like, harder to synthesize in that way. Mm-hmm. So I'm relieved that humpbacks aren't doing that yet. Yeah, not yet. So. Um- Because and for us in Canada, we aren't allowed to fly, um, drones over water. Oh, yeah. Unless there's, like, there's, like, very specific distances- If you have a- unless you have a permit you have a per- yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say, unless you have a permit. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know- It's the same in the States we're not gonna get that from everybody, right? Yeah. So, um- Yeah we're hoping that we'll be able to get a permit, uh, in the next little bit to do some- Mm-hmm work with our sperm whales to figure out length, 'cause we have all adult male sperm whales. Oh, yeah. So getting a better idea about how big are these guys really, um, would be really nice. Yeah. Do you keep a sperm whale catalog too? We do, yeah. I think I have, uh- Do all the things I think I have 67 boys in my catalog since 2003. Um, and they've just this week- Wow uh, started to show up again on both sides of the peninsula, and it's been a really long time since we had sperm whales in the Trinity Bay trench, so Uh, though the ones that are over in the Trinity Bay trench are boys that we have been seeing in the Bonavista Bay, on the Bonavista Bay side. Interesting. So we're on a peninsula and we have two bays that we can kind of choose from, and we just We have Zodiacs so we haul a boat up and move over to the other side. So today it's foggy here. Yeah. So we're on the other side 'cause it's off the land and clear over there. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, it's really nice. So we're in a really unique situation. I realize that's not the norm for most whale watch companies. They have to kind of stay put. Yeah. Usually they're in bigger vessels and it's a little harder. Yeah. And they're not, you know, on these fingers of land like we have everywhere in Newfoundland where you can just... Like, 25 minutes from here and we're in a completely different bay again, right? So, um, it's, it's really great- That's so cool 'cause we don't lose as many days on the water because we're willing to move, but it's a lot of extra work to do that too, so, um, but yeah, it's, uh- How far offshore do you go with your boats? Like, are they really close to land, your sightings, or- Yeah do you have to travel quite a bit? Yeah. So typically we're pretty close to shore. Later in the season the humpbacks will move off and there's a couple of areas that we'll go to that we know are hotspots. Um, but we have to have pretty much perfect conditions to get out that far. Okay. Most of the time we never lose sight of land because our whales are feeding- Yeah, I was gonna say a lot of your pictures, I feel like there's land in the background. Yeah. So our whales are feeding on capelin that lay their eggs on the beaches. So most of the feeding activity- Ooh is, like, literally right off the beach. Yeah. So it's kind of a wild situation here. That's awesome. And because we were, um, glaciated fairly recently in geological time-- Yeah not that recent in real time, um, we're still like, we have really deep, um, it- it's immediate depth offshore and the beaches are not very well developed and it's kind of, like, gravelly, which is perfect for capelin. That's exactly what they need. But then when those glaciers went out, they carved these two big trenches, one up the middle of Trinity Bay and one up the middle of Bonavista Bay. So we have really crazy deep, um, trenches not very far off shore. So you'll see even with most of our spermo pictures that you can see land in the background, which is kind of crazy. It's tough. Normally you have to go really far off, off- Yeah you know? Or be on like- It's amazing a volcanic island. So like New Zealand, the Azores, like places like that, Dominica. They're all great places for sperm whales because they have that immediate depth, but a very different situation than what we have here. So, um- That's so cool yeah, we're really lucky to be able to do that. So I know, like, a lot of people in your area, like, have to go quite far off shore. Um- Oh, yeah Yeah. They have big boats and they travel at least, like, 20 to sometimes, like, 50-plus miles off shore- Yeah up the coast. Yeah. And then even if they were looking for something slower- So it feels like you're in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So we're doing like three and four trips. Well, although bigger boats can make it pretty fast, but everyone gets really sick. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. We're doing like three and four trips a day. Um, and we can do- Yeah we can, like, successfully watch whales in a two-hour span and get everybody back to the wharf again. So, um- Amazing you know, it's, it's a very different situation here. We don't run the shorter trips until now. We started just this week, um, when things start to move in a little bit closer. And prior to that, we do three-hour trips and are, you know, generally- Yeah you know, have a really high success rate as well. So we're just It's a really different situation here than in most other whale watching areas because of the capelin and because everything comes so close to shore. Um, so yeah. Yeah. It's really very different than a lot of places. And it's always interesting when I, um, get to talk to people who are in other areas, and they're kind of shocked about, like, what is happening here. Yeah. And I remember being involved in a conversation with a bunch of Whale Watch naturalists talking about how cold the water was there. Yeah. And I'm like, "Well, it's a little warmer for us here this year." And, and they were all sharing their data. And then I'm like, "This is what our temperature is." And they're like, "Whoa, that's really cold." I'm like, "But that's warm for us." Like, so- That's so funny a lot further north than everyone else that we're talking to, and that makes- Yeah a big difference, you know? Yeah. So- Yeah um, you know, I think I'm the only one in that group that's ever dealt with, like, iceberg sightings on Whale Watch tours before. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. So yeah. So it's a bit of a different world up here. Yeah. It's a whole different beast. Yeah. It's I have to make it up there one day. You definitely will. We'd be most happy to host you, for sure. Um, what kinds of trends are you seeing in the population right now? Are you seeing anything that's worrying or anything that's surprising? It really depends where you're looking and, um, yeah, that's such a broad question. And like I could answer that- local, 'cause like Allied Well, we have like long-term local research within the Gulf of Maine. Um, but then with our catalog, it's like ocean basin wide. Mm-hmm. And, um, that's kind of the question of this year too, is like how is this population doing? Because they're, uh, the North Atlantic humpback whale's undergoing a in-depth assessment by the IWC right now. Mm-hmm. And so we just actually finished like a big workshop, um, and some discussions trying to answer that very question. Like, what is the status? What is the trend? Yeah. And the answer, it's, is, it's really complicated and really complex to really know, because there is a wealth of data for humpback whales and compared to other species, but there's still so much gaps in that data. I would say within the Gulf of Maine, we're seeing a lot of change. Um, you know, they're not designated as an endangered species. The population is healthy. The population's thriving. Mm-hmm. But at the same time, there's a lot of entanglement. We see so much scarring on the whales. Yes. We are still in what we call an unusual mortality event within the United States, um, meaning that there's a much higher l- higher rate of mortality than we would expect with a normal baseline. Mm-hmm. And there's still not like really clear answers of, um- Why, yeah of like what's behind those deaths, tho- those deaths. Um, and then in terms of like local movements in areas, a lot of, there's a lot of shifting of where we're seeing animals located and their movement patterns and, um, the travels of those individuals within the course of a feeding season. And- Mm-hmm um, I actually just published a, a paper a few months ago looking at our kind of local data and, um, trying to model and the changes in decision-making of animals over the past, like, 20 years. And, um, we- we're seeing just a lot more searching behavior of, um, animals that used to, like, go to these hotspots are now roving a lot more and being seen in areas where we didn't used to really document them. So it feel- Mm-hmm it feels like times are changing on a local scale. Mm-hmm. Um, on a big scale, we're, we're gonna be trying to answer those questions. We're getting some funding to look specifically at, like, breeding grounds and try to get some stock estimations and- Mm-hmm not necessarily, like, concrete numbers, but at least, like, trying to designate if there are any different trends in the different breeding stocks in terms of population over the past, like, the, the in-depth assessment happens every 25 years, so trying to look at, like, in this past 20, which is kind of ridiculous in some ways. Yeah. Like, it's like so much happens in 25 years. It's true, yeah. Like, we're definitely gonna see change. But yeah, at least, like, trying to get a, a feel for, like, what has been shifting and what has been changing. Mm-hmm. But yeah, we don't... There's a lot of, a lot of data gaps, and it's hard to, hard to answer that question really broadly. Yeah, absolutely. Um, just to unpack a few things there, the movements that you're seeing when you say whales are being seen in slightly different areas, are they moving further north typically? Well, in the Gulf of Maine it's kind of funny because, like, there's only so far you can go north. And so a lot of it's actually moving- Limited land, yeah like east. East, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So like a lot of our whales off the coast of Maine and like northern Maine, um, used to, like congregate in certain hotspots, and we're seeing those... And like one of them is around Mount Desert Rock, our field- Mm-hmm research station where I'd mentioned, and we've seen sightings going down and... or at least being more sporadic and less predictable. Like it used to be, we used to know like by the calendar like when certain fin whales would show up at this, um, island. Yeah. And it's like all over the map. Like so- occasionally we'll see fin whales there now, and not really that frequently at all. Mm-hmm. And so like our local whale watch is now traveling oftentimes into Canadian waters. Mm-hmm. Um, like really far away from Maine- Mm-hmm to get to these other areas like off Grand Manan banks- Mm-hmm where they're still seeing a lot more productivity. But yeah, so it's kinda hard for their business for one. Yeah, it's far. And then for- And with gas prices being up, it's even harder. Yeah, right? Yeah. Yeah. I'm from Southwest Nova Scotia, so, um, like Brier Island and Long Island, like the hotspots are- Oh, yeah only about a little over an hour from where I grew up. Um, so it's kind of like, you know, the norm for us. Like, I came from a whale watching area, and I actually worked, um- Yeah at a Grand Manan doing some right whale tagging one summer, um, for a little bit, so familiar with that area for sure. Super cool. It's... I mean, it sounds far 'cause you're like in another country's, like water, but it like Maine is- I know, I know to Canada the reality. So it's like, you know? Um, but yeah, I totally respect that, like there's a lot of movement that needs to happen to find those whales. And even, you know, the shift of the North Atlantic right whales that were there all the time, and we certainly had seen, um, you know, cataloging the population and then, you know, changing shipping traffic lanes and things to sort of avoid those whales. Mm-hmm. And now how often are those even being seen in the area, right? Yeah. So the changes- Not, no, yeah in that population have been wild. It's again, though, kind of putting it into like our human boxes and our human mode, right? Mm-hmm. Like we, um, we're seeing these big shifts because like this is where our research station is based and you know- Yeah, yeah we, we wanna go further. But in reality it's like the whales are driving to the next town to get food, you know? Yes, yeah. Or they're, they're like moving- Or country a little bit further away. Yeah. Yeah. Or coun- or country. Yeah, yeah. Um, it's not life or, life or death for the whales. Like, the whales are doing okay it seems, but it just is different. And so I think when- Yeah we react and it just, it feels different, it's hard to know what's going on. It's also hard to know because like there's so much complex oceanography and like some of it- Yes, yeah things happen on these like decadal level cycles and oscillations and changes. And our human research projects are like a tiny fragment in the scope of these like big shifts. Yeah. So it's always hard to like, to pull out like what is this like change, um- Is it, like, really something that we need to be concerned about, or is this just something that is it shifts back and forth? Yeah. But I would say, um, another person who'd be interesting for you to talk to would be Shelly from Brier Island. Yes, yeah. 'Cause I, I do feel like she, she tells great stories for one, and she's like, um, she's just been noticing I feel like that a lot of her whales don't look good. Mm. Um, and she... I think that's more concerning, is like, not like where are these whales popping up, but like what is their health and like are they looking like they're not eating well? Um, yeah, I have, I have certainly, um, talked to Shelly over the years, which is great, and I had taken, when I was teaching in Nova Scotia, some classes there. Um, we were supposed- Mm-hmm to go whale watching, but, like, weather didn't cooperate, and so she did talks for my classes- Mm-hmm which was really nice, um, just from that area. That's awesome. Yeah. It is really good to I think we all don't get enough of a chance to talk to each other, and so- Agreed sometimes it's really interesting when you get to sit and chat, and you're like, "Wait a minute. You see that, too? We're seeing that, too." Totally. And I know when we were at the conference in Tadoussac, you know, Andrew's talk that he did, um, when he talked about, um, these, like, pockmarks that we're seeing and he's seeing, and what he thinks might be happening with that. And it was kind of interesting when people are like, "I'm seeing that," or, "I'm not seeing that." And so, like, is this a large scale thing or just, like, a very small group that has these? Or like, what, what is the actual, um, deal with this? And so it's really interesting with sometimes, like, an offhand comment that someone makes, you're like, "Wait a minute." Say that again. Like, you know? So I think it's really important for us to have these opportunities to talk, um, and to talk about changes- Agreed and learn about, you know, the same animals are behaving very differently in other places, right? So- Mm-hmm um, why are they doing that? What are they doing in your area that they're not doing in my area, and why is that happening? You know? So, um, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's neat. But I think- Well, that's like kind of the beauty, the beauty of catalog work and it's like- Yes just opens the door to connect all of these people around the world who are like- Absolutely taking pictures of these animals and, like- Yeah documenting things and talking about those things. Uh, I wish that we- Yeah could figure out a way though to... Like, a lot of it's just, like, transfer of data and transfer of, like... It would be really nice to, to transfer more that wealth of knowledge and, like, have actual conversations too. Agreed. And I think there's, you know, like I wouldn't know Porik in Ireland had we not made that match. Right. You know? Totally. And I probably wouldn't know you were we not sharing our data. Mm-hmm. Um, and then we got to meet at the conference, and so there's kind of, like, that connection. But I think it's really important to build those kinds of relationships so that you can talk to people, especially when we're, you know, bracing to see some fairly large scale changes. So, like, my whales don't come here anymore and they're like, "We have a whole bunch of extra whales we never had before." Yes. So you're like, "Oh, good." Yeah. They're doing well, they're just in a different area. You know, those kinds of things I think are really wonderful. And like we have a student right now looking at, um, whales off the coast of, like, Atlantic Russia. Yeah. And, like, some of them she's getting matches around the world, but then a lot of them we've never seen before and we're just, like, adding, like, our number of 13,000 is going up and up and up. Yeah, right. We're, "Where have you been, whales?" Yeah. Is it just, like, no effort there? I don't know. Yeah. It's so interesting. But it's putting us in touch- It is really interesting with these, like, people in Russia who are, like, braving the waters and, like, taking these- Yeah pictures and yeah. Yeah. Um, it's so, it's so interesting, and I feel like the whale, the whale human community keeps growing and growing as people take- Yeah more pictures and our whale- That's the thing number in the catalog keeps getting big, bigger too. Yes. I think so too, and I think the effort now is higher than it's ever been because everyone has a camera in their pocket. Um, where before- Yeah, that's true. That is true you know, when I first started everyone was shooting film on the boat, and I remember my first summer- Yeah on the boat, like, I had so many pictures. They were like, "Do you see this picture here of this water?" Right before I took the picture there was a whale there. It was like there was a delay and then it was like weeks before you got your pictures back and you had no idea what you had. And so sometimes they were in focus- Yeah and sometimes there wasn't a whale there by the time you took the picture. And it was just awful, right? Totally. But now, I mean, it's crazy. And that's how our catalog started too. Yeah. Yeah, right? It was like people jumping out in a little inflatable, taking pictures- Yep and then developing in a dark room in the- Yeah fish station. Or like slides. I know Memorial had like tons of slides. Yeah. And so then they had to all be scanned- We still have lots of slides because that's what people developed them onto, right? So, um, you know- Mm-hmm how far we've come now that you can look and be sure that you've got a good picture before you move on from that individual. Yeah. It's crazy. Um, where, I mean, and we're shooting like I don't know how many frames a second now. So like literally if this picture's not good, then like the next five might like open it up enough that I can see more details. So I mean it's- Yeah. Digital photography has totally changed it. I know when our students complain like that this picture is too b- blurry and it's like blown up on this huge screen, I was like, "Don't complain. Like people used to look at these tiny little printed pictures-" that were like this big and still make the match." So you can, you can- Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And you can like literally like scroll in or like roll your mouse and scroll in- Yeah, you can s- and be like, "Is that the same freckle that's over on this one?" Where I mean we didn't have that before. Yeah. So, um, you know- Mm-hmm it's, it's, it's very different now than it was before. Um, I wanna talk about the UME. So we are- Oh, yeah not seeing... I would say we are not seeing, um, as many. Most of the whales that we have washing up have, you know, they have been entangled usually. We don't have really very many that would be, you know, unexplained by any means. So how many are we- Yeah talking at this point? And how long has this been happening for? Um, let me pull up We have, like, a recent graph. Yeah. So actually this year, this year has been, like, a little bit, um, a little bit less so far. That's good. In 2026 we've seen, we've seen fewer than we have. Um, but let me pull up the numbers so I don't quote this too wrong. No worries. I know there's too much data- Like, the total current- to memorize it all. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. The And it's, it, it changes all the time too. The current total in the past, like this has been like basically 10 years of an, a declared unusual mortality event. Mm-hmm. Is 264 documented whales dead. Um- Crazy. And how many would you normally expect? And this is like along the whole East Coast of US from like Florida- Yeah to, to that. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, the normal mortality would be a lot less. Well, so that's with, like, in a 10-year period, right? Mm-hmm. So, like, we would expect a few, like a few individuals per year- Mm-hmm that we would see and document. Yeah. And in reality it's been, um, like 10s to 20s per year. Yeah. That's crazy. And all of the whales that are being included in UMEs, are they, um Like, we don't, we just don't know what's killing them? Were some of them, you know, hit by ships or some of them entangled, or do we just not know? It's all over the map. Mm-hmm. And, like, only a hand- like, only some of them, they could do, like, a proper necropsy. Yeah. Yeah. Like, some of them are documented and they're, like, taking a picture of offshore, and we might get, like, a fluke picture that comes in. Some of them happen on the coastline, so they can bring it in and do a proper necropsy. Yeah. Some of them are, like, fresh dead, so they can do it really easily and see stuff. Mm-hmm. Some of them are, like, highly decomposed, and it's hard to, like, assess things like- Yeah scarring and boat strike. Yeah. The other, the other challenge is that it's also, um, hard to document sometimes if a, like, a wound on a whale has happened postmortem. So, like, after- Mm it died, a boat hit it or something like that. Yeah. Um, you can kinda tell, like, based on the location of the whale on where it is, but sometimes it's hard to, like, delineate all of those things. Yeah. But, um, there's been... it's been all over the map. Like, some whales, there's not a clear answer. Some whales, there's, like, gear wrapped around it, and it's, like, very clearly, like, that was an entanglement issue. Like- Mm-hmm we had a whale, um, off the coast of Maine that had, like, line growing in its mouth. Like, it had, it had, um, embedded into the jaw and was actually- Yeah like, like yeah. It was, like, poor, poor condition and stuff like that. Poor baby. Yeah. And then some wha- yeah. Mm. Some whales with, like, really clear blunt trauma, like, it was definitely a ship strike. Mm-hmm. And then some whales you just don't know. No. So it's, like, yeah, all over the map. Yeah. But, like, the official wording on our, like, government website that's monitoring the UME is that- Mm like, the likely probab- probability is human-induced mortality. Yeah. So, like, it's, it's not natural. It's definitely human interaction, but hard to document and hard to, hard to know exactly what's going on. Mm-hmm. And is there any thought of- The highest prevalency of those is also, like, mid-coast of the US. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, like, the, um, we call it the mid-Atlantic. Mm-hmm. Um, it's not really the middle of the Atlantic, but it's like- like, New J- New Jersey, New York, anything like that. Midway down your coast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Midway down our coast. Yep. Yeah, yeah. And so any thought to is it just that we have more data now because there's more people taking pictures in the last 10 years than there would've been maybe in the previous decade? Is that, like... I'm sure that that's considered. Well- Yeah Well, it's like all over the place. And, um, in some cases now, like there have been fewer reported dead right now, but there's also a little bit less effort this year because there's been a lot of funding loss of, um- Yes. True of people who are taking images and responding to strandings and doing those things. Mm-hmm. So it's hard to know if that is a real, like we're not seeing as many dead whales this year or if there's just like not as many documentation. Um, some of my thoughts have been too, like in the mid-Atlantic there's been a growing population of humpbacks in that area too. Mm-hmm. Like I actually grew up in New Jersey, like not too far away from New York, and growing up, like we didn't... If we went on a whale watch you saw like a common dolphin that was it. Yeah. Right. Like you wouldn't, you wouldn't see humpbacks in that area. Yeah. Yeah. And now there's like multiple whale watches, there's a growing population. There's, um, huge boost, boost in like fish and sand lance and so we've been seeing a lot of whales, especially younger whales. A lot of the whales that they see there are like juveniles that haven't yet been like added into our catalog. Mm-hmm. Um, so like as the population is growing there, there's a lot more interaction in this also like highly trafficked human zone, right? Like it's a very- Yeah very populated area of the US. Yes. So- Yes like yeah, one of my thoughts is like growing population in a very populated area is definitely- Yes gonna lead to like more deaths. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. But, but yeah, that kind of thing's hard to document. It sure is, yeah. Um, the Fin Whale Catalog I have a very large data set of fin whales. Oh yeah, do you? Yep, like almost 30 years- Do you catalog them at all, too? of fin whale data. We have done nothing with it. Yeah. So once we get all of this humpback data sent to you, 'cause we're, like, five years behind. We're, we're getting there. By the end of this month I bet you'll... Or by the end of next month I bet you'll have it all. Um, then maybe we'll get a start on fin whales, but they're so hard. They're so much harder than so many of the other species are. They are, but it's so satisfying. Yes. Yeah. Like, I feel like, um, I really, like I love the humpbacks and our catalog is so important and it's really in- interesting. But there's so many unanswered questions with fin whales too. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. And when you make a fin whale match, you just feel like the coolest person ever. So do you work with that catalog too? And you're like, "Oh yeah, I see this tiny little dot." Yeah. Yeah. So, um, again, like my, my technical title is Director of Photo ID Research. Most of my funding comes specifically towards- Okay like humpback catalog work. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But it's like my, fin whales are my hobby. Fun. Um, so like- Yeah whenever I have a student who's looking for a project, I, like, will push them to the fin whale catalog. Yeah. And we just got a chunk of money to... There's actually a beer named after one of our fin whales in Maine. Fun. That's cool. And so we've been getting some, like, money coming from this beer company, which is like- Yeah amazing and cool. Mm-hmm. And they, like, specifically want it to go into the fin whale catalog, so we're hoping to get some- Wow momentum for that too. That's great. Yeah. And so actually I have a student right now who is... Do you know Danielle Dion, um, Quad Island Marine? Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, so she ha- she is kind of has a similar, she's got a 20-year data set that she just sent to us- Mm-hmm. Yep a little bit ago, and so I have a student working and processing all of that fin whale data right now and building- Awesome a catalog there too. Awesome. Yeah, so we've got some stuff going on and we'll- Yeah maybe in a year we'll be ready for your fin whales. Sounds good. Maybe I'll have a chance to go through them before them, but it, I mean, it's a lot. Yeah. And, you know, there's definitely some that we recognize, but unless they have- You know, it's awful to say, but like pretty distinct scars sometimes it's really difficult. Yeah. It's so dependent on like- Yeah sea condition and lighting and, you know- Lighting all kinds of different things before you can, you know, make a match. So, um, it's harder. Mm-hmm. But again, they're massive and we know nothing. Yeah. Virtually nothing about them. Yeah. We know where they feed. Yep. We don't know where they breed. Yeah. We don't know where they calve. We don't know really generally how their numbers are because we don't know those things. Yep. Um, and there's not really a, a widespread catalog for, you know, like there is with humpbacks. Mm-hmm. And so it, it will be very interesting- Yeah if we can figure it all out, right? So, um. I know. I'm really waiting for, like, a really successful fin whale algorithm. Yes. That can like... Yeah. Is like, yeah, that has... When that happens, I feel like it'll be a whole different world. I know. It's so crazy. Like- Our logo is even, and the logo for this podcast is the same. I... When we worked with the graphic designer to come up with a logo, every time she brought it to me I'm like, "That still looks like a sail from a sailboat." And so finally I just, I'm such a details person, I just sent her the back of a fin whale and I was like, "This is what we'd like." And so she just traced the fin whale dorsal fin, and so that's what's on our, our logo. It's awesome. So yeah, it's super fun. That's awesome. Especially when you're dealing with people who are not whale people and don't really understand what you're talking about. Like- Yeah like the story I told you about, "The whale was too big. The whale was too small." Yeah. Like, I have never seen a whale. That's awesome. Just tell me how big you want it, you know? So, um, yeah. Mm-hmm. So it's always fun when you get to share that with people so they know, like, it's actually, you know, the real deal, right? Yep, yeah. Super fun. Yeah. Um, I'm actually part of a project this summer we started, like, a few years ago too that is trying to tag fin whales. Ooh, neat. And so yeah, later this summer into fall we're gonna have, like, a few weeks, um, like way down East Maine, like- Mm-hmm Eastport area, kind of like right where Danielle is. Yeah. Trying to get some satellite tags on individuals. Exciting. But we did this a few years ago, and we spent like a month, and we got, only got, got two tags on. Yeah. It was like not- They're so fast not super- They're so fast not super easy. Yeah. Yeah. No. But I think we're successful- They're not like mug on the boat usually like humpbacks are and things. Mm-hmm. Like, they just are like greyhounds plowing through super fast. Yeah. Yeah. We see some crazy things down there. But once you get a tag on, it's super cool. Like, we watched a whale go- Yeah from that area over to Brier Island and back and, like, down further. Mm-hmm. Like, it was just cool to see the track lines. Yeah. But it was, like, sample size of two. Yeah. And when you start thinking about, like, photo ID catalogs- Yeah there's just so much more data out there. Yeah. It's just harder to, harder to actually process and get that information. You can't really come up with a trend with two animals tagged, and, like, the effort to get tags on animals- No and the expense is so great. And the cost. You know? Yep. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. ID work is so much cheaper. So. When everyone, again, has a phone in their pocket, so they can take a picture. Yep. You know? Now granted you do need a pretty big lens and a pretty fast shutter speed to get a good shot of a fin whale. Yeah. But you know, it's, um, it's a very different, very different deal with them. And I think they probably spend a good chunk of their life in the deep ocean where nobody sees them anyway. Um. Yep. And that, again- Yeah is crazy expensive to have someone, you know, following fin whales on- Yeah a migration that we don't understand to who knows where. Unlike the humpbacks that are just like tropical vacation in the winter. Yeah. And every- everyone wants to do that. It's so true. Yeah, sure I'll go to the Caribbean for the winter. No problem. Right? So yeah, it's just, uh There's something that happens though, I think, you know, when you are able to follow them onto the breeding grounds or for people who are in the breeding grounds, the, to the feeding grounds- Mm-hmm and see, like, how these very same whales, the behavior is so different. And you can read about it- It's so cool in a book, but until you see with your eyes an animal that you know that's in a completely different place on earth, I think, like, that unlocks a whole new level. Oh, and you did that this year, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we went- You went down to Turks and Caicos? Yeah. We were in Turks and Caicos this year. Had a great trip with, um, Deep Blue Charters. Um, and then we've also been to the Dominican Republic, um, on the Silver Banks like many years ago. So we got to experience that. Oh, awesome. Um, such a, such a cool thing to be able to see it. Um, like I said, I mean, you read about it in books, but until you see it with your own eyes, it, it really- Yeah is just like, it's unfathomable and you're like, "I know you." Were you able to see animals you knew when you were on those trips? When we were in the Dominican we, we were. Uh-huh. Um, well- That's amazing they weren't ours. They were all- Yeah golden mantles, but it was still very cool to see them. And this time our kids got to swim with them, which was so really, like, yeah. They're, um- They were 11 and 13 We were married over there and they were just like- Yeah Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a very- Yeah cool experience. Yeah. Yeah. Where do... Were they scared? Just out of curiosity- Yeah were they into it? Um, I think, I, I think, like, my son was playing it very cool 'cause, you know. And my daughter, um, was a little nervous and, but, like, my husband was in the water and is like a fish and so- Yeah yeah. Yeah. I think, I think you get in and, and it's not very deep there, which is really great. Yeah. And you get in- Yeah and the minute you see them, everything just changes, right? So, like, herpe goes down. Uh-huh. You're just like, "Okay, there they are," and that's, like, amazing, right? Yeah. So, yeah. I've never done that. It sound- Yeah. My husband did one field season in Hawaii in, like- Cool underwater stuff, and he was freaked out. Oh, really? Oh, he was scared. Maybe I would be scared. I remember when we were in the- Just, yeah in the Dominican just like there was a competitive group of males and- Yes. Yeah I think, like, so he felt like, "Oh, I shouldn't be here right now." Yeah, yeah. This was, like, kind of, kind of freaky. Um, but again- In the Silver Banks it's deeper deeper waters maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where it's deeper, and I remember, like, the current pushing me over, um, an escort that was just laying on the bottom and being like, "I'm in his face." But I mean, he was- Yes legit like 100 feet below me, and I'm five feet tall. So he was not- Wow concerned about me at all. But I remember being like, "Ah!" But I mean- Mm-hmm after you're doing that for a couple of days you're like, "Okay, clearly this is- It's super cool zero issue for them." Um. Yep. But, you know, it is a... When there's deeper water, there's more an opportunity for that to happen. We were in very shallow water in Turks, and so, um, you know, you're not drifting over anybody unless you're on top of them. And in, uh, one of the situations, like, the calf was on top of the mom, and they were swimming, and her pectoral fins are dragging in, like, on the bottom, and the calf- Right, yep is out of the water 'cause they're in such shallow water. Oh, my gosh. And so it's just like, "What are you doing way in here?" You know? So- Crazy yeah, like, kind of crazy. It's so cool. Yeah. Yeah. It's really, again, like, it's so cold here, so we're not, you know, and we're not allowed to swim with whales in Canada. But even to put your face in with a mask on would be, like, not so comfortable to really see what's happening. And we have put a GoPro in, um, a few times and, you know, sometimes we do that and get a look at what's happening. But it really gives you- Yeah a different feel for, like, how they move, what's happening under there when you're not seeing them. Um, I remember, uh, on the Silver Banks, our first trip, being in the water when a calf breached, and being like, it didn't look like he was going to do anything big except come to the surface. And then his full body's out. And you're like, "That took you zero effort," you know? Like, it just... But I mean, that tail propels them all day through the water, so, like, it's strong, you know. It's not, right? But it didn't even feel like he was doing, like, a big runoff or anything. Wow. It was just like- Yeah. out of the water. And then the people we were, we were there with are like, "Get out." Like, "This is not safe right now. All right, everybody out. That was cool." Yeah. But yeah, we're just gonna get in the boat for a minute. You know? So yeah, I mean, it was, uh- It's pretty crazy. Just gives you a completely different perspective, for sure. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Um, so I've got a question, too, about, like you said you will be doing some field work, but is there a season for you with this work that's busier than others? Or is it kind of just, like, steady and crazy all the time? You know, I'm still getting a feel for it. I haven't been in this... Like, I've worked with Allied Whale in so many different capacities- Yeah, yeah over a lot of years. But my role in this, in the catalog position, has only been for the past few years, and I had a baby in the middle of it So basically I'm still getting- Yeah a feel for what the, what the rhythm is. But it's kind of all over the place. Mm-hmm. What I, I see right now is, like, sometimes it's harder to get in touch with the, like, the people during their field seasons. Um, s- Mm-hmm but those are also, like, we work with people on the breeding ground and with people on the feeding ground. Yes. So they're opposite of each other. Yeah. So it kind of is m- is less of a, like, the season versus the season and more of just, like, a flip of, like, who you're getting data from- Yeah, sure and who you're communicating with- Yeah during those different times. Yeah. Um, but what we, we have transitions between, like, the academic school year, 'cause we're part of a university, where we have- Uh-huh like, a pile of college students working with us- Right into, like, summer field season mode- Mm-hmm where we're also supporting, um, some local field work and a set of interns that are partnered with a whale watch company. So- Yes the kind of rhythm surrounding the catalog work changes. Um- Yes but the catalog itself kind of, um, is just ongoing and constant. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a lot of data. I will say we get a lot fewer matching because we have a student workforce during the academic year. Yes. Um, our matching process is slower in the summer. Yeah. So we get, we catalog fewer probably in the summer months. Than you do in the winter, yeah. Mm-hmm. And you also have people that are in the field in the summer, so that- Yeah, yeah removes some of the, yeah, some of the people who are able to do the matching. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then you're using, um, AI matching as well as, like, you know, obviously confirming it. Mm-hmm. We all have to still confirm the AI, 'cause I know I run it and sometimes get, like- Oh, yeah. I make mistakes all the time it's extremely likely that this is a Pacific whale. But like, you probably sent me last week. So just to like, um, historically, it used to be, like without the automated algorithm- Mm-hmm at all, we would have like a two-person kind of like a buddy system. Yeah. So if we have a new individual, like one person would take it manually and match it with all of the other whales in our catalog. Mm-hmm. And if they found a match, we'd catalog it. If they did not find a match, then a second person would do that- Yep and bring it all the way through. So now with the advent of the automated algorithm, um, that basically takes our first person away. Mm-hmm. So like our first step is we put it in and automatically run it through the reference catalog. Yep. And if we don't find a match, then someone will manually take that image and bring it through just to check. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And like a lot of our half loops don't work with the algorithm. Yeah. So a lot of them- Doesn't like those is like looking at... Yeah, looking at the half loops and, um, it's gotten better with the underwater, but, um- Mm-hmm some of historically those were challenging, too. Yeah, unless they have- Yeah really distinct marks- Especially on the- it's really hard. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Cathy's really good at it with the Turks and Caicos Island group. Yeah. She's really good at it. Yeah. And what about, I know they're building a bit of a catalog with, um, dorsal fins and, um, pectoral fins, so are you guys, you're adding that kind of data as well when you get it? No, we're not. Yeah, yeah. It's, well, so we- That's a lot like our local data that we have, um, we take dorsal fin pictures, like Juku does the Gulf of Maine catalog. Yes. She has a collection of dorsal fins, too, but with like 13,000 plus individuals, it's just too much. So- Too much data, yeah we keep it simple. Yep. Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha, gotcha. And then at some point, you know, maybe, maybe it'll all be like connected together and it'll be super easy, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. Do you see a lot of differences between individuals? Um, like are there some tails that you're matching and going like, "Look at the crazy differences between this tail and, you know, when we last saw it, this has to be the same individual." Do you, do you have a lot of those? You mean like shifts in pigmentation and, and- Yeah, or even in scarring or? Yeah. Yep, yep. Yeah. We see it, and we've actually been starting to like create a database with it in hopes of like trying to publish something as going forward. Mm-hmm. Some individuals, like you don't see much changing at all and- Some individuals, it's crazy how much change happens. And even- Yeah like in the scarring, in the trailing edge, like a lot of those like really sharp peaks will kind of wear down over time. Mm-hmm. And become more smooth. Yeah. And yeah, new scars that feel really distinct that weren't there previously, and then even like the actual background coloration will- Yeah get some shifts. We have had a couple of mother-calf pairs early in our season, so in the last like three... like say three weeks ago. Um, and mom and calf, but like, you know, definitely that kind of situation, but whether they're this year's calves or last year's calves, who knows at this point of the season? It's so hard to tell. Um, but again, the tails on the calves are very much like that gray where it's like I don't trust it. You know what I mean? Like, um, where you know that something's going to change. Yeah. And so, yeah. So we actually, we don't catalog it. Yeah, until it's over. We, we don't catalog it until the calf has been re-sighted, yep. Yeah. Without- We keep, we, we have a separate folder and category, and yeah, we keep that calf picture just- Yeah and it's part of our like our reference catalog in the Happy Whale algorithm. Yeah. So if we get an individual in the future, like we've... The algorithm can match a lot of those calves with a newer animal. Mm-hmm. But we don't actually include it as one of our like 13,000 whales until we get that re-sighting. Yeah. Yeah. In the future. Because it will be different. So do we have any idea about how long it takes for that like full pigmentation to develop? I don't. Or we just don't know? Yeah, I don't have a good number from you off the top of my head. Yeah. But, like, a few years I would say- Yeah roughly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's, it's so interesting. Some of the calves you see it's like white and black and you're like, "This is how-" Yeah "this calf is gonna be." And other times there's this- Yeah weird like gray whatever happening and you're like, "That's not gonna look like that the next time I see you." Right. You know? Totally. So it's really interesting. And I remember the first time that I was contacted about a match that had happened with a whale like that, and I was shocked. So I'm like- Yeah, yeah "The mat- the, like the markings don't even match-" I know "what you're trying to show me." And they're like, "Trace the trailing edge." And it's- Yep an exact match to the trailing edge. Mm-hmm. And you're like, "Wow, that's wild." Like, it was a significant- Right change. Yeah. Um- And that's why too the, like, automated Happy Whale algorithm, they... It ha- puts a big weight on the trailing edge. Yes. So it makes that match pretty easily even though- Yes it would be really hard for the human brain to- Really hard to do it with the naked eye see that from the boat. Yeah. And especially, I mean, I have been going through our catalog and we're at, I think, 1,700 so like kudos to whoever it is who's flipping through 13,000, what is it, 373 whales to confirm a match. Because it's hard on your eyes and you like focus on like- It is, it is one thing, but then you have to keep flipping back 'cause you're like, "What if... I think that's what I was supposed to be focusing on. Like, wait a minute." I mean, it's not easy- Mm-hmm um, to do manual matching. It's not easy. No, no. And I know we've had, you know, like Roger Etcheberry was amazing in terms of, like, photographic memory. Like flip cards he could tell you who whales were just like... I mean, I am not like that. It's crazy. I so wish I was to be like, "Oh, well that's number 13265, and she was last spotted in..." You know, if only I had that, um, capacity in my brain right now. But yeah, it's, uh, it's pretty crazy. It's pretty crazy. Yeah. Anyway, um, I, I just- Yeah every time we talk we learn new things, right? And you know- For sure as we talked about before how great would it be if we had more of a chance to all sit and chat with each other and, and share stories and things we're seeing. Um, and maybe, maybe we'll get a chance to do that again sometime soon. Yeah. Are you going to Puerto Rico to the biannual? Uh, I don't think we're gonna make it to Puerto Rico this year. Ah. Do we know where- Yeah the next one is, where the next Humpback Whale World Congress is? Oh. No, it hasn't been announced yet. I don't off... Yeah. No. I don't think so. So maybe we'll get to that one, but yeah, I don't think Puerto Rico's in the cards for this year. Mm-hmm. But yeah, hopefully the next time. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. We'll figure it out. Yes, for sure. Yeah. Our director's actually up your way right now. He's in Newfoundland. Oh, really? Uh, Sean Todd. He's- Oh, is he with the field school right now? I'll be keeping my eye out for him. Yeah. We had, like, a College of the Atlantic field school here last year, um, and got to, like- Yeah, he was teaching that. Yeah Yeah, yeah. So got to interact with them a little bit. A couple of them stopped by the shop, and then, um, when we were walking the dog we saw a bunch of them in the park, so I ended up chatting. Um, so it was really fun- That's awesome to see them here for field school. So yeah, it's neat. It's neat to be able to see different areas, like I said, and see what animals are doing and how it's different than where you are. Totally. Um, even though we're in the same ocean basin, things are remarkably different from one area to the next. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's pretty cool. Um, I can hardly wait to see the things that you're going to find from our next five years of data that we're going to send you. Yeah. I have a feeling we'll be talking a lot in the coming months. Yep. Yep. Um, but yeah. Thank you so much for joining me today. I know that you're crazy busy, so I really appreciate you taking, uh, the time out to talk with us. No problem.