Welcome to Sea of Whales, the whale geek podcast, where whale watching and whale research meet. I'm your host, Shauna Prince, scientist and whale watch operator, bringing you conversations with whale researchers and ocean experts from around the globe. Let's dive in. Today, we're joined by Andrew Stevenson, a self-taught filmmaker, author, economist, and marine researcher. For nearly two decades, he has spearheaded the, the study of North Atlantic humpback whales in Bermuda, transitioning seamlessly from a global nomad to an authoritative voice in marine conservation. Welcome, Andrew. Thank you. Thanks for joining us today. Um, I guess we'll get started with how did you get into studying humpback whales? So when I got married, I married a doctor, a physician from New Zealand, and we agreed that I would be the daddy at home and she would carry on with her medical profession, medical practice. And I was walking on the beach with Elsa when she was two years old, and this is the beach r- literally at the end of our drive, and we'd walk on the beach every day. And, um, suddenly, a, a whale breached right off the breakers, like a couple of hundred yards maximum off the beach. And she said, "What is that?" And I said, "A whale." I did not know what kind of whale it was. This is in 2006. Mm-hmm. And she said, "Why does it do that?" And I said, "I don't know. Let's go up to the house and find out." And, uh, within half an hour of being on the computer, I went, "Oh my God, I'm sitting on a goldmine." Mm. And 20 years later, I have been proven correct. Um, I, I have no, uh, background in marine science whatsoever, or filmmaking. Uh, my, my degree, my education was in international economics. Um, but what I realized when I did that research that day was that there is nowhere else except Bermuda that provides a platform with a window into the pelagic mid-migration, uh, of the journey of the humpback whales. Mm-hmm. Between Halas- uh, Alaska and Hawaii, once they leave either place, you have no idea what they're doing in the middle of the ocean. Yeah. Down in the Southern Hemisphere, uh, you've got Western Australia and Eastern Australia, but they're not in the middle of the ocean, so it's not quite the same thing. So 20 years later, I've discovered so much about their, particularly their social behavior that is just completely new to science, and it's because I do have this window, uh, with perfectly clear ocean. And, uh, once, 10 years ago, once we started using drones, that just increased our knowledge, um, of their mid, mid-ocean social lives exponentially- Yeah because we could see every detail of what they were doing. Mm-hmm. So that's how it all started. Awesome. So cool. Yeah. And I know you and I have done talks sort of from the different parts of the migration before together, which is really fun to get to talk to people who know whales in one area. Um, but you know, to have everybody all sitting around the same table, that was a, a really neat experience when we did that. That was great. Mm-hmm. Um, tell me about your work in Bermuda. So what have you been specifically working on? Well, originally, uh, the whole exercise started, it was more of an intellectual exercise. Um, I said to myself, "I'm gonna make a film about the humpback whales in the middle of their migration in the middle of the ocean." And a lot of Bermudians said that that was going to be impossible because, um- The whales are just passing by. They're here for about three weeks. And to make an underwater, uh, film on the humpback whales was gonna be even more difficult. And at the end of that first season, I began to think that they were right. I gave myself three years to make this film- Mm-hmm and, uh, didn't have a minute of underwater footage, not even 10 seconds. And I was... It was the end of the season. The fishermen had told me the whales had all gone, and I, I kept on going out. Originally, I had, um, borrowed a boat that had no radio on it, no GPS. I didn't know where the whales were. I mean, it was really pretty sketchy. Mm-hmm. And we found a pod of dolphins. It was one of those glassy calm days at the end of April, and the dolphins came to the boat, and I started filming the, the dolphins from the bow of the boat as they rode on the pressure wave. And then I thought, "I'll see if I can get in the water with them." And I got in the water, and I started filming them. And on the original footage, you can see their behavior and their clicks become agitated. Mm-hmm. And I look below me, and there was a whale looking at me. Oh. And I had no idea there was any whales around. Flat calm ocean, and get in the water, and 20 minutes later, there's this, a very old male whale, uh, looking at me. And that was the beginning of a two-hour encounter with a whale that we now call Magical Whale. Mm-hmm. And I've had many of these encounters since, but never with that same intensity So it was two hours. Um, often the whale, um, magical whale was, he would be lying underneath me, literally a foot underneath me. Uh, it's not a fisherman's tale because I had a, um, a friend on the boat that I just showed how to use my Sony video camera on the boat. Mm-hmm. And you can see that I'm just lying there absolutely still with this very large male humpback lying underneath me. Hmm. Uh, at times he would bring his head towards me, and we must have been three feet apart literally, and he'd lift his nose out of the water so that his eye was on the same level as mine. And again, it, it sort of looks like CGI when you look at the underwater footage. It's sort of surreal. But when you see the footage taken from the boat of this human floating on the surface with this whale's head sticking out of the water right in front of him, like literally three feet away, it, it's quite remarkable. So you asked how did it, uh, all begin, how did I start. I... It was an intellectual exercise to make, um, a film about the whales, but once that encounter happened, it became a whole different thing because I couldn't sleep l- for a week. Mm-hmm. Um, Annabel in the end had to give me sleeping pills because I just kept thinking, "What was that whale thinking? What was it- Hmm doing? Why, why had he done that?" And I, I had this incredible feeling that he was trying to communicate with me- And us humans are so used to using words- Mm-hmm that I just couldn't- Missed the, missed the message. Missed the message. I sometimes- Yeah I felt like he was using his pectoral fins as semaphores- Mm-hmm to, um, like a, a, a Morse code kind of thing, waving them at me. At times when he's lying underneath me or just staring at me, it was almost like he was trying to do telepathy, um, with me. Uh, then another whale came and they... It looked like it was a bit of, um, um, I'm not gonna say a fight, but there was certainly, uh, argy-bargy going on. Mm-hmm. And I got caught in the middle of it. Mm-hmm. And, and sometimes I'd be sucked down into the water column as these two whales, uh, sort of postured beside each other. And when they dove down, I was sucked down with them. Mm-hmm. The strange thing is that Magical Whale has never been seen since or before. Yeah. And everybody knows- And you don't know what feeding ground or breeding ground or any of that stuff, right? No. No, because we've got no matches to it. Mm-hmm. Um, so that would make me think that it goes to, um, an area where there aren't very many photographers- Mm-hmm getting his ID. Mm-hmm. The other whale that did have this posturing, uh, sort of aggression for, I guess, about 20 minutes, um, is the whale that we have seen the most often. Cool. Hmm. And it's a whale we call Candle, and that whale was identified by Hal Whitehead in 1976 off Labrador. In that area. Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty sure Candle's- Um- been here a few times. Yep but you haven't, you haven't sent me his ID, so I don't think- Hmm. I think the only, the only matches are Hal's original match in 1976, then I have seen him here about 13 times, 13 years. Yeah. Yeah. Once we saw him in January, and then again in April, in January on obviously heading south. Um, and then, uh, he was seen in Samana Bay. Mm-hmm. I think it was, um, a year ago, or it might have been two years ago, by Eva. Yeah. And so many people know I'm looking for these two whales that as soon as she- Mm-hmm saw it, she realized it was a whale that, uh, I was interested in, and sent it, it to me almost live. Yeah. Um, so that was fascinating. Cool. So that's, that's how it all began, and then very quickly I realized, um, as I carried on filming the next two years, that I was spending 98% of my time observing the whales and not filming them. Mm-hmm. It was very, very difficult getting in the water with them, especially as I didn't know how to do it at that time. Mm-hmm. And so I started getting the fluke IDs. Yeah. And now I've identified over 2,500 individual fluke, um, humpback whales. Mm-hmm. And a third of them are re-sightings, and we've done a discovery curve- Mm-hmm um, where we look at the sightings, um, versus re-sightings. Yeah. And it's absolutely amazing, 'cause that curve is a straight line going up, which means- Mm that we haven't even tapped into all the whales that are potentially out there for us to ID. Right. Because if we were starting to, you know, reach the limit, we'd see that line curving downwards. Mm-hmm. But it's an absolutely ver- um, uh, straight, uh, 45-degree line. Mm. So, um, that, that's an indication of, um, the size of the population of the whales that come by Bermuda and, and of the North Atlantic. Mm-hmm. Crazy. Really. So s- since, since, since the, the, the initial decision to start ID-ing, um- The tails, which lasted for a few years, um, I started observing things that I thought were happening but I wasn't really sure. But then in 2016 with the arrival of the drones, then I could actually see that what I thought was happening was actually happening. Yeah. And this is all to do with the social behavior. It's a bird's-eye view. Yeah. It's a bird's-eye view and- Yeah, makes a big difference and with the clear water, unlike, unlike where you are- Yeah um, you, you can just... I, I can see them 100 feet down. Yeah. And I can follow them, uh, and, and have the drone above them when they surface again. Yeah, yeah. It's very different here as you, as you alluded to. I mean, your visibility- Yeah is so much better than what we have, for sure. Um- And they, they, they have white-pectoral fins, which helps a lot. If they had black-pectoral fins- Yeah I probably wouldn't be able to pick them out. Yeah. It'd be a little bit more incognito, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, what is your season? Do you have them c- when they're going down as, and also when they're coming back north again? Or how does, how does it work? Yep. So we see them... I, I, I, I keep pushing the limits. Mm-hmm. But the limit seems to be, um, mid-December, December 15. Mm-hmm. If I go a week before that, then I'm going to get skunked. Um- Yeah but, you know, if you don't, if you don't push the limits, then you don't know what the limits are. Well, that's exactly it. Yeah. So, so December 15th, um, onwards, as long as it's a good day- Mm-hmm um, I can find them. And their behavior is very different. Um, these are obviously whales heading south. Mm-hmm. The, the behavior's very different. Uh, they are what I call sleepy heads. Oh. Uh, usually I will go out to Challenger Bank, which is 15 miles offshore. Mm-hmm. And I will find them on Challenger Bank close to what, uh, I now call The Hill, which is, um, a, a, a, a, the vol- the original volcanic plug that rises up to 147 feet, whereas the rest of the Bermuda, uh, of the Challenger Bank is, uh, 180 feet. Mm-hmm. And they will be very close to that, the summit of that hill. Mm. And the obvious reason for that is the acoustics would be better- Mm-hmm um, up there, and, um, also it's a very distinct, uh, marker in the middle of the ocean for the whales to congregate. Yeah. And so what they're doing there is they are in their sleepy head mode. They will be sleeping, uh, for about 50 minutes, 5-0 minutes. Mm-hmm. And when they surface they're barely blowing, they're barely surfacing. They just take a couple of breaths, and then they sink down again, and they're down for another 50 minutes. So it, it can be very, um- Uh, exacting of your patience. Mm-hmm. But those are the whales that I'm really interested in. And, um, if they do raise their tails, then, then we get their fluke ID. Sure, yeah. Sounds very much like- Um- watching sperm whales, to be honest. That's sort of how they go, but they're not, they're not sleeping when they're on the bottom. They're, you know, typically feeding. But yeah, it's a very, very different rhythm than what we're used to normally with humpbacks, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's the prevalent behavior, and it would be mostly out there. But, um, we can see them, um, coming by our shores. Um, we can see them from shore as they're migrating south. So they have They're, they're filled to the gills with food- Mm-hmm from feeding up north. Yeah, yeah. So they don't need to opportunistically feed, and we don't, do not see them- Mm-hmm um, opportunistically feeding on the edges of the Bermuda Platform or- Mm-hmm Challenger Bank. Yeah. Uh, the other thing that I have seen on seven occasions- In December or early January is, uh, a mother with a tiny calf. And that calf must have been born here. Yeah. Yeah. And one year we saw that mother and calf for a period of about a week all around Bermuda- Ah on the south side, on the north side. Yeah. Yeah. So I thought that the first time it might just have been a premature birth of a mother- Mm-hmm still- Mm-hmm on her way south, but, uh, with seven, um, different years with a mother and calf, I'm thinking that there's a possibility that they are going to recolonize Bermuda as a- Maybe birthing ground. Yeah. Because they did give birth here. Uh, but the Bermuda whalers, who were not very successful to begin with- Mm-hmm uh, realized that they could be very successful if they harpooned the curious calf that would come to the boat, wound it, and the mother wouldn't leave until she was harpooned and killed. Yeah. So there was no incentive for the mothers to give birth here anymore. And as the numbers- Yeah dwindled, they just stopped coming here. But it may, um, there's a lot of the, the, um, circumstances that the Caribbean has that, that we have here. We do have warmer waters. Yeah. Not as warm as the Caribbean, but it's still- Mm-hmm uh, relatively warm, especially at that time- Yeah of the year, 'cause the Gulf- Yeah Stream's still coming through here. Yeah. Um, but then as you know, one of my pet theories is, um, this whole business of, um, so many of our whales have got these, uh, pockmarks, the females have got pockmarks- Yeah on their backs. Mm-hmm. Which I think is from bracing on the overhanging reefs- Mm-hmm um, when they are having difficulty giving birth and using the reef to, um, to help push. Mm-hmm. And we have exactly the same kind of overhanging reefs here, so they have that here as well. Yeah. And then we have the shallow waters. We have 400 miles of water that's 70 feet deep- Mm-hmm uh, which is similar to the Silver Bank, and, um, they have that, that as well. So it wouldn't surprise me, uh, that we, we, we might see these births continuing here. That'd be great. It's always good to see them in the event So that's what they're doing, um, on their way south. They're just sort of, um, sleeping here. I think there's a lot of singing that goes on there. Mm-hmm. They are meeting here. Mm-hmm. They're not feeding here. They are looking for mates to carry on going south. Mm-hmm. I do believe that, um, they don't have the, uh, orca problem that they have when they go north. Mm-hmm. Um, but on the other hand, I just saw some footage from National Geographic showing an orca attack on a mother and calf leaving the Caribbean, so- Mm-hmm maybe, um, maybe there are definite threats there. And then when they head north, they are feeding here because they- Mm-hmm have been starving for four or five months. Yeah. And their behavior there is very typically two whales in a pair- Mm-hmm um, on the edge of the Bermuda platform or the banks. Yeah. Um, they will go down together, uh, for about eight to 11 minutes. Mm-hmm. Then they will surface, um, in either the same place or further along on that same- Mm-hmm contour line. Um, so they're feeding here. You see the mothers and calves resting in shallow water for some days- Sure are feeding the calves so that it can regain some energy after the thousand-mile crossing from the Caribbean. Mm-hmm. Um, we see a lot of, uh, mating behavior, rowdy groups. Uh, I have filmed as many as 25 whales chasing after a female. Crazy. Um, I also see what I am pretty sure are groups of very large females, and I call them menopausal grandmothers, and I think that they are hovering around here to act as escorts to the mothers and calves that come up here. At first, I thought it was always a hum- a, a male that was- Mm-hmm the, the escort to the mother and calf because usually if they do arrive here, um, without an escort, they will have an escort by the time they leave. Mm-hmm. And there's every incentive for them to do that because of the orcas that are up north, and roughly 25%- Absolutely of our whales have got- Safety in numbers. Yeah yeah, they've, they've got these orca bite marks, and those are the ones that survived. Mm-hmm. So, um, but, um, then I began realizing that, you know what, that escort is actually bigger than the mother. It doesn't have any scars on it. Mm-hmm. Um, the dorsal fin is perfectly intact, and I really wonder whether it's a female. So my assumption that they're always males is now tempered by the fact that I think they are sometimes, um, what I call these grandmothers. Absolutely. Do you see... It used to be here for us that we would have sort of three different waves of humpbacks arriving on the feeding ground, um, with sort of a pronounced pause in between the different groups. Do you see them traveling in different groups? Is it en masse? Like, i- is it, or can you even tell maybe when they come through and heading back north? Um, I, I think that we suspected early on that there were these waves, and we tried to tie it in with the, um, phases of the moon and so on. I'll tell you one thing, um, there is a definite pattern of fidelity to a fixed schedule. Mm-hmm. So when we have whales that have been here multiple times- Yeah um, they typically will be here e- the day, the same day they were here before- Yeah. We've seen that too. Mm-hmm or very similarly. Yeah. And the, the outliers to that would be the, the mothers with the, the, the females that are newly impregnated. They would want to start heading north as quickly as possible. Mm-hmm. And then the late ones would be the females with calves who want to stay down south as long as possible. Yeah. It takes them a little bit longer. Yeah. But otherwise, given the fact that most of the whales that we see are males- Mm-hmm there is a defin- definite pattern of them showing up within three days of when they were here before. Yeah. That's kind of wild. But to say whether they were, there were big waves, I'm not, I'm not 100% sure of that. And, and the problem is that our observations are, um, weather related. Yes. That's true. Yeah. So we can't get out when it's rough weather. But I, I- Mm-hmm I would say that when it's really been really rough weather and we had some calm weather, we'll see a lot of whales out there. But that sort of makes sense. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting to hear about how they behave and the things they're doing, um, in other areas, you know? It's just, it's remarkable really, um, that these same animals have such varied behaviors at different times and in different spaces, and even for you seeing them where they're absolutely not feeding on the way south, and definitely opportunistic feeding on the way back, right? So that's- Yeah. Yeah that's always interesting. I know there was, um Allied Whale did a study looking at scarring from the tails, the fluke shots that were submitted from different feeding grounds in the North Atlantic, and our region had the highest incidents of orca attacks of any of the other feeding grounds. Um, you know, is it It's always interesting because you can only, you can only work with the data that you have. Mm. And so of course we don't know about, uh, do we have more orca attacks or do we have more unsuccessful orca attacks, so just more animals that are scarred as a result of this? So maybe ours just aren't as good. It's hard to say. Um, but you know, uh, we don't have any record of the ones that were successful of course, because they're no longer in the population. So the best guess is to, to look at the scarring. Right. We had a really interesting one last night, um, when the camera came in that has, um At, at first when I saw the back of the tail I wondered if it was a prop injury. So if you're looking at the back of the tail, um, just on the top right-hand or top left-hand side I guess it is, it's like a- It's almost if someone took a can and pushed it through the tail from left to right and took out, like, a massive chunk right across the middle of that tip of the tail. Um, and it looked like- All, all the way through, all the way through the tail? Not from front to back, but from left to right, so across that point that's on the top of the tail. And it, um So it looked as though I thought I wondered if, like, maybe it was prop marks, but then when I saw the pictures later, there was another sequence where it was a full dive sequence. On the front and back of the tail on both sides, there are these marks. So it's, it's orca for sure, uh, where it would've bitten and then pulled off. So if it had been a prop mark, it would only be on the one side, right? But interesting. Um, I haven't really seen that. Like, you see where they will bite out, you know, almost like a, a bite of a cookie kind of out of the trailing edge of the tail or- Mm um, the teeth marks. We see that quite often, and sometimes even on the dorsal fins, but I've never seen that before. So it looks like they actually got a chunk, you know, took out a good chunk, um, on that one. I've never, ever seen one like that before, so not fresh and looks well-healed. But you couldn't, you couldn't, you couldn't see, you couldn't see all the way through? No, no. No. It's from left to right there's a chunk missing, but the top of the tail is still there, and it's, like, partway down. I mean, it also gave me a really different sense of, like, how thick the tail is, right? Because it's has this, like, almost cylindrical piece that's been, uh, cut out from left to right. It's very strange. I'll send you a picture. Well, I'm, I'm, uh, I, I'm repeating myself, but is it- Yeah cut all the way through the tail? Like, you can see through it? From left to right. There's You can't see daylight, no. No. Okay. Great. No, it goes across the tail, not through the tail. Yeah. No, but I, I, I, I meant did it perforate the tail so you could see the other side all the way through it? No. No. Okay. No. Yeah. It's- I, I'd be interested in seeing that, the photo itself. Yeah, it's very strange. I've never, ever seen one like that before, so again, not a fresh injury, so obviously really well-healed, but, um, really interesting sometimes. I, like, you know, I've said it so many times, but if only these whales could tell their stories, the tales they would tell, right? I'm sure that they have experienced and, um, you know, so many things and had to overcome challenges that we can't even imagine, right? So- Yeah yeah, it's, it's, it's really interesting for sure. Um, did you notice this year any, um, trends, anything that was out of the ordinary from previous years? Um, no, not that I can think of, no No. So it seemed like it was a pretty average year in terms of, you know, who you'd have coming through, and behaviors, and any of those things? The weather was the worst we've had, um- Yeah and everybody will say that. So- Yeah the, the days on the water were limited, but- Mm-hmm um, by the same token, um, I think the numbers were record numbers again. Uh- That's great the, the, the, the, the, the population's obviously increasing. I went out one day after we'd had almost a month of storms, and nobody had been out on Challenger Bank because of the rough weather. Mm-hmm. And when I got out there, there must have been 100 whales out there. Wow. Amazing. And that was s- that was similar to the first day that I went out there after the government eased up on the COVID restrictions, and you were allowed to go out on your boat in your own family unit. Yeah. And nobody had been out there for months. And again, uh, got out to Challenger Bank, and there must have been 100 whales out there. Which goes to show you that with the noise pollution- Mm-hmm uh, it does detract from the whales wanting to be here. And without that noise pollution, they will come back in greater numbers. Yes. Yeah. And I think through the pandemic, that was seen even where, you know, there was wildlife in urban areas where there weren't, you know, people commuting to work every day, and so many people, you know, out and about, that, you know, nature returned when people were sort of at home isolating, right? So- Yeah it's, it's always interesting to see that. Um, what are some of the most interesting findings, would you say, that you've had throughout your time working with humpbacks? This, the, what is your audience age group? Keep it PG if you can. Okay. Um, well you can always cut this out, but um- The menopausal thing, uh, you know, seeing groups of, um, what I call grandmothers hanging out together, which you don't see anywhere else, um, is fascinating. But once I got in the water with, um, what was obviously a female whale, a huge one, one of the largest I've ever seen, and she had four males, judging by their scarring and, um, deformed dorsal fins. Mm-hmm. But when I got in the water with her, she did not have that semi-spherical lobe at the end of the genital slit. Hmm. And I was very confused, and I got back in the boat and kept referring to this whale as a he and a she, 'cause I just couldn't decide which one it was. Mm-hmm. And then the next day we were back out on Challenger Bank, and we were coming back, and we saw a whale ahead of us, and so we slowed down and stopped, and then we saw her lift her head out of the water. And this whale was extremely friendly the day before. Mm-hmm. And as soon as the head came out of the water, I recognized the head- Mm-hmm because she'd been spy hopping with us, I mean, literally one, one foot away from the boat, literally. Mm-hmm. And, um, she had some distinctive marks on her head that I recognized from a distance of, uh, I guess 150 meters. Mm. So we just sat there waiting, and I said to my crew, "It's the same friendly whale we had yesterday." And she was with a mother and a calf. Mm-hmm. And then she brought the calf to the boat- Mm-hmm and she started lying on her back pec slapping, and the calf did the same thing. And the calf was so close to the boat, I mean, it was literally right alongside the boat, and at the end of this pec slapping on its back, uh, it lifted its tail up, its fluke out of the water, and rested it on the side of the boat. Wow. Yeah. Um, and so m- here was what I thought was a transgender female, and then I began thinking, "Oh, well, maybe it's a grandmother." Um, and then that behavior the second day was m- very much like a grandmother bringing a calf over to the boat. Mm-hmm. Um, so what is that semi-spherical lobe for? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, the male, the, the, the genital slits of the male and the female look very similar. Mm-hmm. It's just slightly different positioning on the body. But when a male is trying to, um, impregnate a female, it's very difficult for him to know exactly where he is. Mm-hmm. And so that semi-spherical lobe, to my mind, would be an indication to that very sensitive member as it's groping around- Mm to realize, "Okay, this is where I am. I'm in the right place." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. If you are menopausal, then you would not want to have that provocative- Mm-hmm semi-spherical lobe. Um, and so I think it disappears. And so that was just an extra layer of not proof, but information, um, on the possibility of humpbacks having menopause. Then I phoned up Ack, um, um, Alex, um, Werth, who does necropsies with Joy, and I asked him, uh, if he'd ever seen the semi-spherical lobe on a female, um, that he was doing a necropsy on, and he didn't know what I was talking about. And I explained to him, "Well, how, how, how do you tell the difference between a male and a female?" And he said, "Well, you have to cut it open, uh, or, or look at the relative position of the genital slit." And, um, and when I told him about this, and then he looked it up, how, you know, most of us will tell the difference between a male and a female if you, if you can see that area of the body. Um, he w- he was absolutely amazed. He said, "I've never seen this." So it seems to me that in menopause and in death, that semi- semi-spherical lobe may disappear. Wild. So that's one interesting thing. Mm-hmm. The other interesting thing is on the other side of the equation, and that is the male fraternities that we see here. Mm-hmm. At the very end of the season when the... all the females have gone, and these are now the same males that were fighting tooth and nail over a female- Mm-hmm um, in, you know, classic, um, bull run or, um, uh, heat run behavior. And now it's just males together- Mm-hmm and they are singing, multiple s- male singers with their heads down, singing in between the Bermuda platform and Challenger Bank in a canyon that is 4,000 feet deep. Mm-hmm. And if it's a calm day, flat calm like a mirror- Mm-hmm If you look up, you can see a reflection if you're in the water, underneath the water. Oh, wow. If you look up, you can see a reflection. Yeah. And you c- and with the drone footage, you can see these animals are looking at their reflections and dancing around together. And they're not breaking, they're not breaking the surface of the ocean, but they are somersaulting or rolling around on their side without breaking the surface, so they've got that constant mirror image of themselves. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And at the same time, I've got a hydrophone overboard- Mm-hmm recording the most beautiful songs I've ever heard, because it's multiple singers. Mm-hmm. And they've chosen this spot to do it because it's echoing off the canyon walls. Neat. And so with each sound, you can hear it echoing two or three times. Yeah. And they get into this state of ecstasy- Mm-hmm where they become aroused and they are twisting and turning and, and touching each other, resting their heads on each other mm-hmm. Um, while their pectoral fins and their- Uh, flukes, which are covered in razor-sharp barnacles, are also- Mm-hmm swishing around, and it's the, a measure of their, one, trust, and two, their, um, arousal that they are exhibiting this kind of behavior. Mm-hmm. And I find this absolutely fascinating. And then I started trying to see if these whales knew each other- Mm um, and going through my catalog and seeing which ones were seen together on different years. And w- I found it very difficult doing that, um, but then I, I went onto, um, an AI program that specializes in spreadsheets, and all my data is on Excel spreadsheets. And I asked the AI program to determine which whales were seen together, and indeed, this is a fraternity of whales, and some of them have seen, been seen together multiple years together. Mm-hmm. Whereas others are new to the group. Mm-hmm. But they're sharing this shared, what I call, culture- Mm-hmm of dance and movement and song. Mm-hmm. Um, I think to establish and reestablish the fact that they are part of a culture, of a community. And even though they may not know each other one-to-one- Mm-hmm they do recognize that they belong to this common North Atlantic culture. Mm-hmm. Interesting. Fascinating. Yeah. Are they all singing... I mean, on the breeding ground, as we've read, they're all singing the same song in the North Atlantic in one year. So are they- Right singing it not like a choir all together, but everyone sort of started at different times and it's different sounds you're hearing from different animals each time? Or what, how does that work? It, it does seem to me, um, and I think this has been confirmed, that it's not as uniform as it is in the Southern Hemisphere. Mm-hmm. Okay. And that it's a, a mishmash of different songs here, and it's not sort of this adding to something that you heard before and then going across the Atlantic. I, it's m- to me, it's much more, uh, a mixture of the different- cultures, the different tribes of, um, of humpbacks. 'Cause as we now know, some of the whales from the Eastern Atlantic- Mm-hmm from Russia, Norway, and Cape Verde are- Mm-hmm actually in the Caribbean and coming- Yeah through Bermuda. Yeah. So it is, um, it is a cross-section of the, the different Eastern and Western North Atlantic cultures that- Mm-hmm that are here, and the song does seem to be different. Mm-hmm. It's interesting too, because when you note that you have animals coming at the same time, you also note that you have animals who are all arriving at the same time every year. So is it that they have this very well-established relationship with each other, or do they just happen to be there at the same time? And I mean, no one really knows, I guess, at this point. But isn't it interesting that we all see that, um, at various parts of, you know, the migration, right? Yeah. I, I, I, I, I don't have any question that the, the reason they are timing it like that is so that they can meet up with their- Mm-hmm cohort, and that- Yeah they do know each other very well. Mm-hmm. And this leads me to an, uh, um, the, the things that I talk about are completely out of the box as far as marine science is concerned. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, like the, the, the menopause and, um, these male fraternities. Um, but, uh, I think there is a possibility of- paternal ties to a calf. Mm-hmm. So for example, when I see a female with a calf in late April or early May, and it's got a male escort, that male escort has no reasonable expectation of impregnating that female at that late stage. So why is it spending energy accompanying that female? Now, when you see these females being courted by the males, and sometimes it takes days where you've got a dominant male escort- Mm-hmm at the side of a female for days, those two whales know each other. Mm-hmm. They recognize each other. Yeah. Now, if that male sees a female that he had impregnated the year before, and she now has a calf, why wouldn't he help protect that mother- Mm-hmm and his offspring? Mm-hmm. That's right. For sure he would know that that was the female that he was with the year before. Mm-hmm. And so to me, it explains why you would have a male with a female and a calf late in the season like that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's fascinating. Yeah. You never know, right? I mean, we have certainly found stranger things from the data, right? So it'll be interesting to see as time goes on if you can, you know, prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that that's what's happening, if that's even possible with these animals. Yeah. Well, right. But- I mean, we miss so much of everything, right? We miss so much- Yeah when they're below the surface. We miss so much when they're, you know, in between breeding and calving and, you know, congregating, and when they're at sea for long periods of time. Like, we miss so much of what's happening, that really it's, you know, a lot of guesswork sometimes, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's, uh, it's fascinating some of the things you see, for sure. Um- When I showed the, um, the film, which you have seen- Yes my latest one, I showed it in, um, in Hawaii, and I was quite nervous because there were a lot of whale experts there. Mm-hmm. And after I screened my film, there was a break, and I was walking to the washroom and encountered one of the preeminent whale es- uh, um, experts, Canadian, who spends a lot of time in Hawaii. Mm-hmm. And he stopped me, and he said "I'd like to talk to you about some of the things that you bring up in that film of yours." And I thought, "Oops, okay, here we go." "When can I talk to you?" And I said, "Well, we can talk now." He said, "You do realize that what you're discovering is a big deal?" I almost fell over backwards. Yeah. And he, he was absolutely fascinated and, um, he said, "You know, this, this, this is just completely breaks the mold what, what you're seeing here. And, you know, you, you can see the visual demonstration of what you're, you're talking about, and it's extraordinary." So I, I, I really believe that, um, Bermuda does hold, um- A, a key- Yeah a, a key to, to really getting an insight into, um, what in my previous film I called the, the secret lives of the humpbacks. Mm-hmm. Uh, we're just seeing things here that nobody else really can see, because when they come here, they're, they're doing everything that they're doing everywhere else. They're breeding- Yeah they're, um, giving birth- Singing and feeding they're, they're feeding. Yeah. Yeah, but they're also doing these extraordinary things like, um, socializing and having these male fraternities and female- Mm-hmm um, fraternities as well. Mm-hmm. It's really interesting. And I think the more work that we do to figure out who's where and when they're getting to areas and, and figuring out relationships that way, you know, maybe some more patterns like that will be revealed for sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think, I think, um, it was great having that chat, uh, with the North Atlantic Humpback Whale Naturalist Association, where you've got, you know, tens of thousands of hours of, of experience with the North Atlantic whales. Yeah. It'd be great if we could expand that to, to other areas, and, and we are now down to the Caribbean with Catherine and Kathy and- Yeah and maybe, um, Petragum in Ireland and others- Mm-hmm to get a better, better idea of, of what these whales are all about and not just our own little viewpoint from our own jurisdiction. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, we're only seeing such a small part of their entire life, their entire year in their life. Um- Mm-hmm and, you know, how does that impact the rest of their year? It's, it's interesting. I mean, a couple of years ago, we had As you say, you know, people tell you the whales aren't there, but how do you know if they're there if you're not out there? Yeah. And so there are, um, some birds that are hunted in the winter here, and so Chris was out with a friend and saw a couple humpbacks. And it's normal for us to have a congregation of humpbacks around Christmas time. Mm-hmm. This was in late February and early March that he was out, um, with these two animals and got, uh, photographs. And so the story h- around here had always been that they were teenager whales that weren't really old enough to be going to the breeding and calving grounds yet, so they- Mm-hmm would stay for the winter and feed. Um, that isn't the case. So the one had had a calf the previous year, and the other one I don't believe we've been able to identify as of yet. So, you know, if And it wasn't just, you know, uh, it wasn't a calf. That was what that was- Mm-hmm by any means. It was a larger animal. So, you know, that has completely smashed the narrative of, like, why, why are you here? So had that animal made the migration south already and had come back early to continue to feed, or did she just take a year off and stay here to feed? And I mean, I don't, I don't know the answer. The other thing is, are they self-aware enough to know that they're not pregnant? So if she had had a, a calf the previous year- You know, does she know that she's not pregnant and so doesn't need to go there to calve? Like, I mean, these are all questions. Um, you know, it, it's just... It was interesting, and it sort of, you know, confirmed some things that we had wondered about. Um, but I mean this is one observation. Because typically, you know, people aren't on the water when they're here in the winter, so are we missing a lot of these kinds of, um, uh, ones that stay all winter to feed? Or is it s- that they're few and far between? I mean, some years it's completely iced over and nobody can get out anywhere, even when there is a, um, a commercial fishery on or, you know, people are going out to hunt birds or whatever. So again, when the weather is bad, people don't get out there, and then we have, you know, coupled with the ice and snow and all the other things that come, um, to a Newfoundland winter. But that was definitely interesting, and it would be, um, really neat to get some more data on that and have a better idea about who's coming and why they're coming and staying at that time of year. So, you know, um... A- and I think the other thing is that, I talk about this a lot on the boat, is that we, we, um, try to put things in boxes and make rules and decide why things are happening. We like things as humans to be in categories, and the reality is that, you know, these animals do things for various reasons, and we may not fully understand any of them. So it would be sort of like if someone was observing humans like, "Oh, I just saw him scratch his nose. Why is he scratching his nose?" Well, there could be 50 different reasons you just scratched your nose, right? Hmm. And, you know, with them, the behaviors that we see, it could be the same thing, is that, you know, that behavior means this in this context and that in another context. Um, and so, you know, it's, it's just, it's complex and I think, I think sometimes maybe it's been simplified to a point where it doesn't make sense, right? Yeah. Uh, we know that, um, the numbers of males to females down south is, let's say, five to one. So where are all those females? Surely they must be where you are. Maybe. That could be, that could be the missing link, right? Yeah. I, well, I just assumed that. But, um, I didn't realize that it was so difficult to observe them in the wintertime. Yeah. I mean, sometimes our harbor freezes over. Um, sometimes we have pack ice from the Arctic, so, like, getting out there just isn't possible. Uh- Right and then of course it's, it's freezing. It's subzero temperatures and snowstorms and big winds and- Yeah you know, so it, it's not as simple. And of course, you know, they're not always feeding. We're so lucky here because, you know, they're feeding on capelin that lay their eggs on the beaches, so the feeding is very close to shore in the summer. Right. And it's not always like that in the winter either. So, um, you know, it's, uh, it's a little bit more complex to have those observations in the winter, for sure. Mm. Right. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. You can't even leave a boat in the water overnight, you know- Right because of, you know, various reasons. But I mean, our floating docks come out and, um, we have to be really careful about ice damage to the, uh, infrastructure that we have in the water, so the floating dock is out so that we don't have ice damage. And then, you know, can't leave a boat in just in case. And, um, the severity of the winds and the swell and the storms that we get in the winter is such that, you know, leaving a boat does, in the water doesn't make sense. So everything's out of the water and in storage and, you know, it's a, it's a very different animal, the North Atlantic in the winter, that's for sure. Do you, um, when you're out, you see all kinds of whales. Do you ever see killer whales? Yes, absolutely. Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. A lot of them? They were spotted not that long ago. Yeah, we have a catalog. Um- Mm-hmm so yeah, we've been seeing them. I think our catalog goes back to, like, late '90s, so it's- it's a significant, um, data set, for sure. Uh, we see them- But you've, you've never seen them attacking humpbacks? We have seen very fresh marks, um- Mm sometimes. We have seen them feeding on minkes, and we have seen them feeding on a fin whale calf, like attacking and, and killing- Mm and feeding on them. Yeah. It's, um, it's a quite an experience to be in the front row of something like that happening, for sure. Mm. But, um, yeah, I mean, they're, they're very different than the other whales, for sure. Yeah. And, and kind of turn things on its ear. But considering the number, considering the number of whales that we see that have got orca bite marks on them, um, it's amazing that it, in the North Atlantic anyway, it's almost unseen behavior. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. We do... Uh, I would expect, I mean, this is, this is totally my take on things, but the rake marks that we see on dorsal fins and on tails, and the interactions that we see with orcas with other whales, my expectation is that these attacks are primarily happening when they are younger animals. Um- Yeah we've not seen orcas go after an adult, um, humpback- Yeah ever. We have had humpbacks intervene, um, when i- when the fin whale calf was being attacked, they got in the middle of that whole thing. Um, they were too late, sadly, um, and the calf was killed and consumed. Um, but it's, uh, it's interesting. I had a really neat conversation with someone at the Humpback Whale World Congress about that, and she said, "You know, I think we've been fed this, like, fight or flight animal thing, and we assume that whales are-" That humpback whales would be, um, a flight animal, and I think they're a fight animal. And so that's how they get this, you know, you see, like, articles every once in a while about them being the superheroes of the sea. Um, and we kinda joke sometimes on the boat that I'm, like, making a cape for them, but I'm not sure how to attach it on them, you know? Those kinds of things. But- Mm-hmm you know, there's lots of documented behavior where they are protecting another animal of another species, um, usually from orcas or sometimes from sharks. Um, and so having a, an, an understanding of what's safe and unsafe and how they can help, and whether or not that is a byproduct of, um, protecting themselves as well sometimes or, you know, fighting instead of fleeing when these kinds of things happen is really interesting. So- Hmm I mean, it's complex behavior. And honestly, the, um, the sightings of orcas here are so sporadic and so, um, hard to predict that it would be very difficult, you know, the amount of observations we have, you know, how many years would it take to get enough to say that these kinds of things are happening? Primarily when we have the orcas, they are on their own or pursuing minke whales. We don't often see them pursuing humpbacks at, at all. I don't recall- Hmm that ever happening, um- Mm-hmm in my time here, and I'm at, like, 28 years in here. So, you know, it's, uh, it's interesting, you know, to see What's actually going on there and why, right? Um, but as you said- Mm-hmm you know, where, where are these attacks happening if we're not seeing them? And, and my expectation would be that it's when they're younger. Maybe, maybe these orcas spend a lot of time offshore, as much offshore as they do inshore. I mean, now it's a little bit more, um, it's documented and it spreads faster because of social media, and also the fact that everyone has, you know, a camera and a video camera in their pocket, where before that wasn't always the case, right? So you take it out and video it, and you put it on Facebook and it goes viral, and everybody knows that you've seen them. Um, so it's a, it's a very different, um, it's a very different, different atmosphere even in the last 10 years than it was in the last 20, right? With everybody documenting things, which then gives us maybe a more complete picture, um, and helps us to see patterns a little bit better. But there's still so much of their lives that happens in areas that people are not watching all the time, and so how much are we missing? And what kind of picture would it give us if we knew those bits of information also? I mean, I really don't know, but I wish I did. Maybe I will someday. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's It's like, and I'm sure you find this too, every time you find an answer to something you have 10 more questions, right? Yep. Yeah. So, you know, it just It is, um Yeah, I mean, they're complex. They travel crazy distances. They have all kinds of interesting things they're doing. Um, and I think we know a lot physiologically about whales because, you know, we killed them and cut them apart for so long. But what we don't understand is, like, social structure and behavior and those kinds of things as well as maybe we would like to a lot of the time. Um, so, you know, it's, uh Yeah, I mean, it's come a long way since I started here, and how much further will it go, you know, before I'm finished working here? Who knows, right? But it's, um, yeah, it's neat stuff for sure. I mean, every day you learn new things, right? Or you see something that you're like, "What's that about?" Or, "Why are they doing that?" And then try to make some sense of what you've seen with what could be happening. Um, but we may be, you know, adding two and two together and getting 10 instead of four, right? So you never know. You really don't. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so you are right now screening your movie in all kinds of places. Where's your next one? Um, I just screened it this week. Um, I've entered a number of film festivals, primarily in Canada- Mm-hmm 'cause that's what I'm most interested in. Neat. Um, and then I'm just reaching out to some venues now, uh, to see if they're interested. So nothing concrete yet. Mm-hmm. Hopefully we'll see you in Newfoundland before much longer. Oh, gosh, I'd, I'd love to have an excuse, as you know, to, uh, come up there. Yeah. Absolutely. Do you wanna tell- It's not the, it's not the easiest thing, but- I know, right by the way, we've got this Bermuda Air flight now that goes straight to, um, Halifax. I know. Nice. Which is great. Yeah. And it also now flies to Turks and Caicos, so- Ooh, nice next time you go to Turks and Caicos you can go through Bermuda. Yeah. Amazing. That's great. That's good to know for future trips down south for us, for sure. Yeah. Uh, you know, come and visit with you first and then down, down to Turks for sure. Yeah. Um, do you wanna tell everybody a little bit about your new film? Um, like, like, like what? What's it about? It covers it covers a lot of the things that we just talked about, but instead- It sure does, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Instead of just listening to my voice, you can actually see it. Mm-hmm. Um, it's narrated by both my daughters again. Mm-hmm. This is the third film I've done. Um, the first film was 60 minutes long, Where the Whales Sing, and it was narrated by Elsa when she was six years old. Mm-hmm. And I think her narration was what, um, made it so popular. It won some, some big, um, film festival awards. Mm-hmm. And then the second one was The Secret Lives of the Humpbacks, narrated by both daughters when they were 10 and 15 in 2019, and that won some, uh, film festival awards. And then this one, which I've just, just completed, and it's narrated again by Elsa and Summers. And, um, this film... I've, I've come close to doing, um, films with professional filmmakers, which is what my preference was. Um, but on three occasions, I've had to pull the plug. And then I couldn't figure out how I was gonna... So I, I thought, "Okay, I will do another film myself," because, um, editing the footage and, and creating the story is so much, um, a creative process- Yeah that it's really hard, uh, to, to let it out of your hands entirely, unless you've got total confidence in the producer, director, film, um, um, editors. Mm-hmm. Um, but I couldn't, I couldn't figure out how to tell the story. One as- one storyline was that I was looking for a magical whale, going up to Iceland, Greenland, Newfoundland, but, uh, I wasn't, I wasn't too motivated by that storyline, that quest. Mm-hmm. Um, and then, uh, two years ago, I was taking Summers to boarding school in Canada, and this is actually- Mm-hmm in the film, as you know. And, um- We got there early, and I was showing her some footage on my iPhone that I'd taken from the side of the boat- Mm-hmm three days earlier, and it was of her, um, in the water in her bikini, um, on a perfectly sh- calm day so that you couldn't even see where the surface of the water was. It just looked like she was floating in space. And she was filming a little empire drift fish as it swam around her. Mm-hmm. And, um, a Cuvier beaked whale, that's what we were looking for, surfaced- Yeah um, beside her. Mm-hmm. And we were looking at this footage, and I said to her, "It's pretty compelling, isn't it?" And she said, "Yeah." And I said, "Now, imagine if that was me in the water," and she burst out laughing. Mm-hmm. And I said, "That's it. I'm gonna do this story through your eyes." So- Mm-hmm I'd taken a lot of footage of Elsa and Summers when they were, uh, growing up, mostly- Yeah down on the beach or swim training or free diving or- Mm-hmm um, you know, helping me out with the boat, looking for whales. And so the first, uh, five minutes of that film is really, you wonder whether it's a home video of this guy's family. Um, but it all- leads into the, the whales and how these kids have, uh, grown up with this, um, maybe eccentric father would be a polite way of putting it- um, who keeps going out on the water looking for these whales. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and their involvement in the whole process and how when they come back to Bermuda, they, they, um, they're drawn to come back here because of the whales that they grew up with. Mm-hmm. So I th- I think that, uh, from, from the audience reaction that I've had so far, I think that that angle is an astute one because not everybody just wants to watch a film about whales. It's hard to relate for the average person. As you know, when we go to the Humpback Whale World Conference- Yeah it's just all of us can spend hours- Hours and hours and hours- all day long, all night long, sharing- Yeah and listening to information. But- Yeah but that's not the general population. And I think the fact that, um, it's narrated by the kids and you see them growing up, it just helps to bridge that gap between the general public, um, and their knowledge of whales, but their innate knowledge of kids. Mm-hmm. And, and, and Rosie, our Portuguese water dog, fe- features, um, quite a lot in the film. So everybody can r- not everybody, but most people can relate to having kids and having a dog. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that- Yeah that provides a nice stepping stone to make the 47-minute film seem a lot shorter, um, and more interesting. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And where can you access... I know the third one is not widely available yet because we're still doing screenings, but where can you access the first two? Oh, that's easy. If you go to my website whalesbermuda.com. Mm-hmm. And if you go to the menu item outreach- Mm-hmm um, and then go down to documentary films, and, uh, there you can see the two links on Vimeo, um, that will take you to one or the other film. But you've also got access to my underwater photographs, you've got, um, all the papers that I've authored or co-authored. Um, you've got some examples of whale song. Mm-hmm. Um, there's a whole bunch of information on that website, um, that, that you can- Excellent uh- Great resource pursue. I'll, um, put the link in the comments when I post this on our social media as well. Okay, great. Awesome. It's been great talking to you, Andrew. I really appreciate you joining me today. Um, not at all. I'm, I'm, I'm so happy to do it, and as you know, we, we just love talking about whales, and, uh- We sure do there's not that many people I can talk about whales indefinitely, uh, with here in Bermuda, so it's no hardship, uh, spending, um, some time, uh, responding to your questions or, um, listening to, um, your views on what's happening up in Newfound- land. It's fascinating. Awesome. I look forward to seeing you here, hopefully in the not too distant future. Yeah, well, keep inviting me. Someday you'll find me, someday showing up on your doorstep. We may show up on your doorstep too. I just love being here. The winters are no fun here. Well, that'll work. Yeah, exactly. All right. Take care. All right, thanks so much. Yeah. Bye, Shawna. Bye.