Welcome to Sea of Whales, the whale geek podcast, where whale watching and whale research meet. I'm your host, Shauna Prince, scientist and whale watch operator, bringing you conversations with whale researchers and ocean experts from around the globe. Let's dive in. Today we're joined by Wayne Ledwell and Julie Huntington of the Whale Release and Stranding Group. Welcome, Wayne and Julie. Hi, Shauna. Hi, Shauna. Thanks for joining me today. Um, I wonder if we can start with how you got into dealing with entanglements and strandings. You start. W- well, uh- Huh. Hmm I had come back from a QSO placement in Vanuatu in the Southwest Pacific, and I was searching around for what I was gonna do, and, uh, uh, 'cause I needed to make some money. Um- and this was a volunteer position pretty much. And, uh, I heard this guy on the radio, John Lean, talking about looking for someone to, uh, help, uh, disen- with a disentanglement program. Uh, uh, it was called an entrapment assistance program then because it- Mm-hmm it was assisting fishermen to get large whales out of their cod traps and nets and every- And there was... So, I went and had an interview with him, and, uh, and they said... And look, I have a, a fishing background. I grew up in a fishing community, and I was fishing advisor there when I was in Vanuatu. And, uh, so I kind of knew my way around the wharf and that. And he said, uh... I said, "John, I don't..." When I was finished, I said, "I don't know anything about whales really. I don't." And he said, "You don't need to know anything about whales." He said, "We'll, we'll teach you that." And, uh- Mm-hmm he wanted someone that could handle himself on a wharf with fishermen and to, uh, for, uh, taking, uh, uh, for taking whales out of fisher- fishing gear, which was a lot of animals being caught then for a long time. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What year was that? 1987. '87 is when you started. Mm-hmm. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. And how about you, Julie? How'd you get into it? Uh, okay. Uh, John asked me if I wanted to work with the program and, uh, because I have a background in, in fishing, uh, as well, but I fished in Australia on bottom trawlers. Mm-hmm. And I went to the Australian Maritime College and did a diploma in fishing technology, so I was familiar with fishing gear and making fishing gear. And, uh, and so yeah, John, uh, found out about that and asked me if I wanted to work with them. Awesome. Mm-hmm. Um, in terms of your year so far, you know, how has it been? Have there been more calls, less calls? What, what's it feeling like so far? Oh, well, this year there's been the flurry of calls in, uh, in May and June. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, and I don't know, I think we've worked on, took five whales out of gear, four or five so far. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And had a number of calls about other whi- animals that are towing fishing gear from either being, you know, busting out of gear themselves or, or being cut out of crab gear or- Mm-hmm anyway. Mm-hmm. We deal with that more and more now, chasing free-swimming whales that are towing gear. Yes. Yeah. More than before? Y- well, well, before, before the mor- before the moratorium, we never bothered with any of that stuff. We didn't have time. There was whales- No back caught in fishing gear- Yeah you know, they're everywhere over the island. The island is so huge that- Mm-hmm we didn't bother with ones that... 'cause, like, really it's so hard to do anything with them. You know, we'd- Yeah concentrate on ones that were actually, you know, somewhat anchored in- Yeah gear, and guys had to get them out so they could get their traps back in the water and- Yeah you know? Yeah. And get back fishing because- Exactly it was such a period of time that they could fish- That's right when we were in. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm assuming initially it was more, uh, cod trap entanglements. Is that right? Well, there was cod traps, and then there was also salmon nets. Salmon nets some ago. Oh, yeah, true. Yeah, yeah. And, and, uh- None of those anymore. No. And, uh, and, and gill nets. Like, you know- Yeah lots and lots of gill nets. I mean, you could almost, fellows used to say you could walk across the, the, the bay on floats, right? Mm-hmm, yeah. There was that much fishing gear in the water. Yeah. And that, that's, that's all changed now, but, uh- Yes so e- everything. And, and whales are in the same place where fishermen are, because they're just competing for the same, and both know where, know where, where the best fishing is. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And then if there's gear in the way, the whales get tangled up in it, and that's just how it is, right? Yeah. That's it. They're after the whales. Yeah. I mean, sorry, the whales are after the fish, and- Mm-hmm uh, and, uh, they don't see the nets. No, no. They don't, they're not aware of the net. Yeah. They can't hear the net, but if they can- Yeah then they don't get entangled. Well, that's- Yeah uh, I don't know about that. They're, uh, um, uh... w- well, there was a program. John had alarms on fishing gear. We had alarms, put them on the traps. Yeah. Pingers. Yeah. Yeah, I remember those. Yeah. But we couldn't say conclusively that this whale... 'cause it was, whales will get caught up with them, and they'd be wrapped around them, and- Yeah so we're not sure that, you know, there's no conclusive evidence to say that that did work, but- Mm-hmm they looked, they looked good anyway, and fishermen liked them, and seemed- Seemed like a good idea. Something to try, right? Yeah. And maybe it did work and, but, uh, it wasn't w- it's hard to say 'cause you don't know- No uh, uh, one year to the next, like, uh, whether whales are gonna be in that same area again. There's many of them as- Right you know, one area is- Yeah the same area every year. Did your season start a little earlier than it would normally have started? No, well, I mean- It can start January 1st. Yes. Yeah, true. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it varies year to year. Yeah. I'm- So in the winter months, you're mostly dealing with, like, ice entrapments and things, right? Yeah. We, we deal with that, uh, usually not in the winter months, but in the spring. Like, maybe late- Mm-hmm you know, when the pack ice move. When the years when pack ice, uh, uh, comes down from the north, then we get, uh, white-beaked dolphins mostly. They're, they're residents. Mm-hmm. Yeah. They get entrapped and forced to shore as, as they move ahead of the ice, and so we've dealt with them quite a bit over the years. Not... Didn't deal with last year or the year before. We didn't have to deal with it. Yeah. We had no, we had no pack ice. Yeah. And the first, uh, the first entrapment here was, uh, 11th of April. Mm. Mm-hmm. But it was a real quick- We noticed- moving year. Yeah. We had a lot of whales early in the season. Uh, ear- like, m- more than we would have had in previous years, I think is, is safe to say. Often we start with sperm whales early in the season, and they weren't there early in the season. Or I guess for us, the prevailing wind was northeast, so we weren't where the sperm whales are at the beginning of the season as much, because it was wild on the Bonavista Bay side. But there was a lot of herring this year, a really, like, a, a big abundance of herring, and a lot of feeding on herring, um, in close to shore. So I mean, that, that was, uh, good for us to start off the season, uh, with consistent whales kind of holding in an area 'cause the herring were all there. So that was a very big deal for us. So maybe that's, you know, that's what's going on with so many, um, early on in the season. Well, that's what we, whales get caught out in the spring is people have bait nets out for herring. Yes, exactly. And that happened this year, and it happens, you know, pretty much every spring. I mean, and there may not, there might be 10 whales on the island, uh, in, in April month, but one of them has to get caught. It's just the way it is. It's a rule, is it? It's like- Yeah yep. Yeah. Which one is it gonna be? Roll the dice, guys, right? Which area is it? We have a good idea which area it's gonna be because, I mean, we've been down the Terrence River area and on the, uh, uh, in Fortune Bay. Mm-hmm. Oh, that's, well, over the last five years we've been down there three times in February, which is, you know- Crazy 21 being out down there, got caught. Yeah. They all get caught. And that was- What are the odds, right? What are the odds? Yeah. They all get caught with a mouth and so- Yeah, yeah we're feeding them. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. That, um, so the whale that you had in Somerville that we came to that was really close to shore, that was a herring net mooring, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That it got caught in. Yeah, and I mean, that was a successful and- It was. It's wild to watch, that's for sure. The work you do is, uh, it's not, um, for the faint of heart, I guess we should say. It's, it's, uh, hard work for sure. Uh- There you go so the, the area you cover is all of Newfoundland and all of Labrador, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a, that's a big area to cover. Lots of coastline, lots of whales, lots of problems sometimes. Yeah, well, we, uh, we, uh, we have a small inflatable that we use that's been Actually, it's the same type of inflatable that's been used since the program began, began- Mm in the late '70s, 1970s. Yeah, yeah. Uh, it's, you know, the preferred boat of choice for us that- Yes uh, we work in that, in that, in that soft bottom, uh, f- uh, what is it? F- how many meters is that? Uh, 5.5 meters. 5.5 meters, yeah. Mm-hmm, yeah. And, uh, that's the boat that we tow it around everywhere and, you know, easy to put in the water and- Yeah uh, yeah. And now we have, I don't know if you said it, but now we have Now the DFO tends to help us a lot because of the whales being traveling whales. So the fisheries officers, uh, w- we can request assistance and they- Mm come and help us to, uh, they stand by- Yes to help us disentangle the whale, so just for safety. Because sometimes nobody knows whose gear it is. Mm. No, that's just it too. When you were out in our area, um, with the last one, they were doing a standby kind of situation. You were bringing the gear to them to kind of get it off- Yes of your boat 'cause there was so much, right? Yes. So it was good to have them there for that, 'cause then you don't have to go back to shore every time. Uh-huh. Um- That's right. Yeah. So, yeah, 'cause we just take what we need, and we can just go back and get something else if we lose it or It's a g- it's a good resource. I mean, a- and that's the same way we, we would deal with fishermen. Yeah. Fishing people, fisher people as- Yeah we say. That, you know- Yeah same thing. They'll take us out and we'll do the same thing. Tow us out and have all our gear aboard their boat and stand by in case something happens- Mm and we can just go back and forth to them to get what tools we need. Yes, for sure. Um, I've seen some scary videos online of people deciding they're gonna do, uh, disentanglements by themselves. I'm sure you've seen it too. Um- You know, people who are getting in the water with whales that have gear, uh, tangled around them, um, people, uh, trying to do it on their own without, I think, having a full understanding of whale behavior and entanglements in general and wild animals that are afraid. Um, so what advice do you have for people about what they should be doing if they find a whale that's tangled up? Well, there are several pieces of advice- Yeah and, and one is don't, you know, call us. Don't- Mm don't disentangle it, 'cause we found that if people make that attempt, they'll take off identifying markers or they'll let the whale loose with gear on it, and then we can't, uh- Yeah you know, it's much harder for us to find the whale, and then we find whale with gear left on it. Mm-hmm. So if they could just call us immediately, that, that would help. Um, and, and as far as getting in the water with a whale that's, uh, entangled, uh, if you got entangled in that gear, you would lose your life. Mm-hmm. And, uh, that's what has happened with several people around the world. So no disentanglement groups put people in the water to disentangle whales. They all do it from, uh, a, a specially, uh, designed and set up boat, and they have specialized gear that they use to disentangle the whales. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because- Thank you for that. I, it's scary to watch some of those videos knowing, you know, what I know, and I have only a small kernel of information over what you guys know. So yeah, it's scary to watch that. Well, and also, people go and they, you know, so much on social media, and half of it is not true at all. It's true. Yeah. And, uh, more than half. But, uh, it's just they see, um, like, they see, okay, there's a whale there and we, we saw this, how they do this, and they'll go- Mm and, like, and you know, these whales, uh, their, their jawline is down, down just so far under the water that you can't even tell if there's anything in its mouth unless you, unless you can actually look at it. Mm-hmm. And so, uh, they think that, okay, we'll cut off the trailing rope, which they can get up, like, say there's a long trailing rope and it's through its mouth and it could be around his fin, around his tail. Mm. The best you're gonna do is, like, i- is, especially from boats, people- Mm is cut off that line. Mm-hmm. And then you're just condemning the whale anyway rather than- Yeah cutting. You have to get, y- you have to, the first priority is get that rope, uh, uh, cut from his mouth. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think then shortening what is hanging off it makes it harder for you all when you get there, yeah, to kind of figure out what's going on if there's nothing left sticking out. Right? So what is happening there? It's also, it's also dangerous, like if you cut off the float off of that rope, right? Cut a whale a slack, uh, put a rope and a float on it. Mm. Yeah. So you know, and it's 20, 30 yards or whatever. And then a boat comes across it and some people wanna go out and like now there's a lot more activity on the water here than what used to be. Yes. Mm-hmm. Prior to the Godmore drawing, there was nobody out looking for fish or on the water, only people that are just doing it commercially. Yeah. Now there's boats going around with fast motor- Lots of recreational boaters, yeah, yeah and if they run over that rope and get caught in it with their propeller, there's no, like, I, there's no way. You're not g- your boat is going, your boat is going under. Yeah. Or speedboats, they pull you under. Yeah, yeah. And, and then you go, if you're in, if you can't get out and get someone to pick you up, you're gone. Yeah. That's it. That's it. It's, I mean, these videos are, I think they have really good intentions, uh, but things that happen, you know, someone maybe once was able to do that successfully without incident, but then it goes viral and so people get all these ideas about what they should be doing. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's really scary sometimes to watch those because they're not- They're not even five ton animals, they're 50 ton animals most of the time. And so to be that close to an animal that's in distress, number one, um- Mm when you don't know what you're doing, and then, you know, you're endangering your own life and the life of that animal as well, right? So it's just, um, I think that's really an important piece to let people hear. Yeah. You can say it as many times as you want, but hopefully they'll hear it, right? Well, that whale is compromised and is in pain. Yes, yes, exactly. And something else in the water alongside of it, they don't know, but that's what caused that pain. You know? That's it. They're not, they're not sitting there waiting for you to come up and say, "Thanks a lot for coming here." They're just wild, they're wild animals. People forget that. They think humpbacks are these, especially ones we most, we deal with here are humpbacks. Yeah. You think they're those cute little cuddly animals that you can get in the water with and they're gonna They're not, they're, they ain't like that. No, no. It's not. And I think to some degree, you know, there's more people on the water, there's more people posting, but I think sometimes those pieces get missed, the wild animal piece. And you know, you see all kinds of things where people just don't know how to act, right, around wild animals, and so they do silly things. So I remember a video of a beluga whale that was a resident in an area, and, um, it had been kind of coming close to the wharf and doing things. And so, you know, with its mouth wide open. And so a parent was like, "You know what I should do? I should just put my kids', dangle my kids' feet in this whale's mouth." Like, that's Why would you do that, number one, and then if something happens, then it's the whale's fault, right? And I mean, people just make bad decisions sometimes, um, when they're not as connected to nature as they once were, I guess, maybe. So yeah, it's, uh, it's always interesting to see those kinds of things. Over the years, I know you've had some kind of wild experiences. What are some of the most memorable, um, entrapments or, or disentanglements that you've dealt with over the years? Wait a minute. The most memorable are the ones you almost forget. Yeah. Ah. 'Cause you've entangled a whale and been successful, and it goes on. The other ones, sometimes maybe we don't wanna revisit. No. They did occur. Some- Yeah some things have occurred, because we've been doing this since the '80s. Yeah. And 2026 now. Yeah. But, uh, you know, most occasions y- You, those are very, uh, few and far between. Mm-hmm. And, um, yeah, we, we, we, we learn from them- Yeah and go from them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you like the ones that go off without a hitch and are kinda like, "Eh, the whale's out. Everything's good. Everything went smooth." Forget about those, yeah. Well, it never goes off without a hitch, though. No, there's always something. I mean, they always, they always- Yeah. They all got hitches under, oh. Well, this is true. There's always hitches. That's the problem in the first place, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Excellent. I mean, there are, uh, there have been, you know, a lot of stories that I can't share with you here. Um, um, finally- Not publicly. We'll discuss later. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, uh, but, uh, I mean, the whole thing is, you know, it's from being at it so long and being around whales and gear for so long, that you, you, you have an idea of what the whale might do. Uh- Yeah, yeah and, and sometimes- You can read behavior Yeah. Mm-hmm. And sometimes that doesn't work either. You know, you, you know- Yeah they, uh, they surprise you in a unpleasant way. But, uh, you know, but that's, uh Usually, you know, no one, no one has been hurt here over the years of, uh, you know, c- certain- I'm knocking on wood. Yeah. Uh, you know, sure had many close calls, but, uh- Yeah you know. Uh, it's har- You know, as in most of the way, you, you go up in the whaling gear and, uh, and it's fine. Mm. They're sitting there. Yeah. Yeah. They don't do anything. Yeah. They're just laying there and, uh- Mm and you just gotta get around it. It's going up and down, and, and, and you know, okay, this whale's not gonna This whale, chances are he's not gonna do anything. Yeah. So you gotta get, 'cause you gotta be right alongside of them to get cut off. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. You have to be sometimes- And then- on top of them. Then you, then you go to, go to the next one and just keep da- living daylights out of you, right? So- Yeah. Yeah hard to judge, hard to judge them, right? As soon as you start working on the whale, that could provide more mobility for the whale, and then- Yeah, true it becomes- You're releasing more parts that couldn't move when you first started. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we, we had one whale, uh, I'll tell you one story anyway. Uh-huh. We had a whale back in the, uh, 1989, I think it was. '80, '80, '89. And I was down in St. Mary's Bay in a place called the Gaspesie Shore, and there was, all those whales getting caught down there. And there's, you know, these cod traps are, they're as big as, you know, uh, uh, 60 fathoms, which is 66 fa- feet is a fathom. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Around. Yeah. And 16 fa- they bring huge pieces of fishing gear. Yeah. Massive. That, like, like weirs, you know. Yes. So we had this whale and we couldn't get it out, and I was there for over a week. We'd go down and we'd, we'd go in the, and, uh, and, uh, do another whale somewhere. On the way back then, 'cause you're driving five hours there and six hours there and s- you're on the go the whole summer. Yeah, yeah. Back and couldn't hang with it. It was just wild. It's just like it was- Mm-hmm it was what you would expect an animal that size could do and would do. Mm-hmm. Uh, uh, see that whole cod trap on is around it and floats on a big, you know, full of orange floats underneath it and around it and so we decided that, uh, we went out this day, and this is the time fella who, John Liam was with, came out with us- Mm-hmm 'cause we were doing the entrapments then. John wasn't, he wasn't doing as many. He was doing other stuff. Mm-hmm. He came out and, you know, let's get this whale out. That's enough of this, right? Yeah. Well, we went out to go out to whale and we were s- this is a serious attempt, right? We're gonna do it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Didn't work out that way 'cause when John was holding up the truck, we used to use our boat as a float. Mm-hmm. To try to hold the whale up, which probably didn't make a lot of sense, but we s- we did anyway. And put a grapple down into it and, and used the boat to try and keep it up, 'cause we were only using fillet knives then to do that. Yes. Yeah. Hand knives. Yeah. We had to get, I'll just give up the whale with hand knives 'cause we were go- we... But the whale s- the whale, he was standing up and the whale, uh, went, went down, and he used to go down a lot. Mm-hmm. It went down and it came up very fast and smacked the bottom of the Zodiac. Yeah. And so I went back up the whale again 'cause now he's up a little bit, right? We're s- trying to get something and hear his voice- Yeah saying, "Pull me in," and here he's sitting in the water instead of holding the rope out of the side of the Zodiac. John Liam. Awesome. In his floater though, right? So he's floating still. Well, he, well, he had oil pants on him and he had a fluorocarbon. And, uh, so then that was enough of that. Then we went into the gear store and we got a- Yeah we got it like it was, the whale was about three-quarters of a mile offshore. Yeah. We got a heavy-duty rope- Mm-hmm organized a backhoe, and we went out and we, and we tied that rope onto where the whale was. And now we didn't know how strong the whale was gonna be with the backhoe, so we buried the tires of the backhoe in, in soil. In the moor. And we tied it onto a tree, a polder, polder. Yeah. And we asked the fishermen to lift the rest of the anchors that were on the whale, which was holding him in place. Yeah. And winch that whale ashore. Hauled it ashore with all the gear on it. And it came in, it came in and we held it between two island rocks and there was deep water between them. Mm-hmm. And we, he wasn't gonna do anything 'cause he's gonna beat himself up on the bottom. Yeah. 'Cause they're healthy whales, right? Yes. Well, that's it. Yeah. They know and, uh- Mm-hmm so anyway, we walked out around and cut the gear off and then he went on. Crazy. After a week's worth of work. After a w- yeah. Well, I mean, we've done that in, uh, we've done that, various other things we then taught him, is taught him. Because the thing is, once the whale is in gear, he's gotta come out. Yeah. Somehow or other. Yeah. So you, a lot of innovative, uh, innovative- Do what you have to do. Yeah. Yeah. Do what you have to. Yeah. That's it. Don't come home unless the whale's out, kind of a thing. Wow. So yeah, some long trips then. It's not, it's not always like we arrive, we cut the whale out, two hours later we're on our way back home again. Bye. Like, that's not, that's not how it goes. Mm-hmm. I don't know how long you were on the one that we saw you with. So, um, it was, I think, two years ago when you guys were out here. Yeah. Uh, on the one that was in the herring net in Somerville, or herring mooring, I guess. Oh. Um, yeah. Oh, wow. But it was really close to shore, so I, I mean, we've had, we've known you all for a long time. And so it used to be that when we reported a whale, we kind of knew that we were going to have house guests for a little while, a night or a couple of nights, however long it took. And so you guys would come and stay, you know, whoever was working with you for the summer or whoever was out with you. I remember distinctly you showing up, like, late one night 'cause you had been driving to get there so you could get out the next morning, and we had an infant at home. And like Cr- Chris is, "We're all very excited that you're here," and everybody's telling stories, and the baby wakes up, and you're like snuggling the baby while we're all... It's like, I mean, it was just, I just distinctly remember that every time I think about, um, you, that one trip in particular with, like, Levi just being this little dude who was like, "I'm not sleeping. There's a party happening downstairs." Um, and so it was, we have a couple of times been sort of in the area, but obviously like not coming by to watch you guys do the work that you do, and this is the first time that I've been sort of, uh, in a front row seat to what, what you're doing. Um, and that one, um, that whale got pretty rowdy, and we have a kind of a wild picture of you up on that whale while it was tail lobbing. Um, and you were able to cut it free, but like y- that one, it was sort of strange because you worked on it for quite a while, but then it didn't realize it was free when it was, so it stayed for a little bit. Does that happen a lot? Yeah. Yeah. That there, it depends how long they've been there. Yeah, yeah. 'Cause sometimes they get, their muscles get atrophied or s- or something. Yeah, I guess that makes sense, too. Yeah, yeah. Like if it were to happen- Yeah, and that whale had, mm, and that whale had been ashore, so- Yeah it probably was disoriented, you know? Yes. 'Cause whales are moving all the time in a forward direction, and- Mm-hmm and when the man reported it, he said it was like right ashore. And- Yeah, 'cause I think it was low tide, and he said it was like on the rock, like- Yeah out of the water. Yeah, yeah. So when it was disentangled, uh, it, it just sat there and was- A- and before we, we got down there, 'cause there had been a lot of nor'east wind- Mm-hmm, there had been. Yeah uh, at the time, so the whale could've been there a long time- Yeah before hikers come again. And nobody was out and about 'cause the weather was nasty. Yeah, that's what- And when we were driving there, people were saying, there was a guy going on. He said, "The whale is just laying there close to shore." A guy on a kayak wanted to go over and- Mm-hmm and they said, "Don't go near the whale. You don't know what they're gonna do." Mm. And you saw what that whale did. Yeah. It was a little wild After, after, after we were around him and- Mm-hmm and then the whale changed, changed his behavior and then it went, uh, went crazy on us, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty crazy. It was, it was really interesting to watch. My kids were really like, "Whoa." I mean, they've known you for a long time. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Like, "Oh, that's what they do. Got it." You know? Right. Yeah, and then you're, like, kind of a celebrity. Like, everybody wanted to come talk to you after and like, "That's amazing, man. How can I do what you do?" And you know- Oh, yeah all those kinds of things. Yeah. I'm sure you get that a lot. Yeah. People just, I think ultimately people just wanna help, but it's not something that you just go out and do without some training and some experience, right? Um, yeah. Well, you know, what the nicest part of being at this was when we worked with fishermen, right? Yeah. Uh, go out with them, uh, and they'd curse at the whales and they'd call us- Mm-hmm sweet- Yeah thing. And, uh, and then we'd get the whale out and, you know, uh, we'd be out fishing with them and, uh, come in at the wharf and everybody would ask, you know, other people how did, was the whale. It was a community thing. Yes. Absolutely. And we weren't looked at as any more than a, a fisherman in the comm- 'cause we were on the water so much, we were almost fisher- fishing. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and, you know, it was, "Just clear away the wharf. Why don't they let that whale crowd get out," right? Yeah. The whale out there. And it was, you know, that, that's not like that anymore. No. Now we are normally that go to a whale and nobody really owns it, right? Yeah. So we're just go- coming in and nobody even knows we're there hardly. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but we used to- Yeah. Well, that day they knew you were there. Yeah. That's right. Yes. Yeah. You had quite an audience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are there species that are harder to deal with than others? Or do you really see a difference? Well, I mean, uh, the w- whales that we've dealt with, large ones, I mean, we've dealt with right whales. Mm-hmm. I didn't find any difference in them than the humpback. Um, you know, they can do the same things to you as a hump- They're harder, harder to, uh, uh, to work on, uh, when they're free swimming, which most of them are. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because humpbacks, they got something that helps us a lot. They're on white side fins. Yes. So you can see where they're- So we go when the whale is coming up. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Whale is coming up, then we can see, see their side fins, then you know when it's under the water. Yeah. You'll follow their fin. True. Yep. The right, the right whales don't have that. They're black. Yeah. So it's very hard to, to, uh, you know, y- to figure out where they're gonna come up when you're following them. Mm-hmm. They're typically swimming with gear on them. Yeah. But the humpbacks give us that advan- that advantage, 'cause you know, they're like, oh, yeah. Big, long arms. Yeah. We can tell- And they're all white yeah. Mm-hmm. I mean- Yeah th- th- that's how we can tell, like, "Okay, the whale's here now," right? You can watch him on, he's, you know- Yes uh, close to you underwater. Yeah. But, uh, no, we don't see any, like, I mean, fin whales, they're like freight trains. They're gonna take whatever's there and go on. They sure are. Yep. Yeah. And, uh, we don't, so mostly it's, uh- We have seen fin whales with gear on them. Yes. Yeah. But they- Double they're so fast. Yeah. It's crazy. And then- And big. But- I mean, it's- Yeah twice as big as the humpbacks you're dealing with in most cases, right? So, you know, it's a different, it's a different deal. But they are like freight trains. I mean, that's how they travel, just like plow on through and off they go, right? Like- Mm wild. Yeah. Yeah, and, uh, like all the other whales, like, you know, uh, well, we deal with minke whales too some, you know. Mm-hmm, yeah. But the, but the rest of the whales, like, the humpbacks are a special whale. Yeah. Because the other whales, they're just like, they, they ain't stopping. They'll kill themselves if they can, right? Yeah. And get... But the humpbacks- Yeah seem to be like, after a while it seem like after they're caught for a while, I mean, they, they, they go into this vicious spin. They're saying I'm gonna get, or just getting caught, and- Yeah they go into a vicious spin. Mm. And they just swirl around everywhere, and they, if you can't bust it, sometimes- Yeah uh, I'm stuck now, kind of way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and they let you, they let you work on 'em. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, uh, like, you know, for the most part. And, uh, whereas, uh, the other whales, uh, they're, the hum- there's something about, uh, about humpbacks that's different. And humpbacks are different than other whales. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. You know? And, uh- I would agree we dealt with an, with most, we've dealt with many of them over the years, and, uh, uh- Mm-hmm you know, most of the times- Yeah you'll, you'll think, most of the times you go out and, and, uh, Sid does know how many times, "We're not getting this whale out of this today." No. "No, we're not gonna get... Not-" Yeah. "There's no way we're getting that out," 'cause weird h- stuff's happening. Yeah. But, uh, after a while, something happens. It's amazing. Something changes, yeah. You caught something, and something happens, and then next thing you know, you, Jesus, you got him, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And gotta get off him. It's, it, you know, we talked a lot about entanglements, but you do also respond to strandings. Mm-hmm. So, um, everything you've dealt with so far this year has just been entanglements? Uh- That we've actually been to uh, been to, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've heard about strandings, but, uh, not gone to the site. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, so- I mean, our day str- Just explain to everybody what a stranding is. Maybe that's the first step before we delve into that. Well, in our case, it's an animal that either that, that, that comes to shore- Mm-hmm either alive or dead, and it's called a, that's a stranding. It's stranded out of its original environment. Yeah. It shouldn't be on the shore. Right, exactly. So again, same procedure then. If you see a whale that's stranded, you should not attempt to deal with that by yourself, and you should call you guys to start, yes? Well, first of all, the, the, you know, s- every stranding is different. Yes, absolutely. So, you know, and, and some whales are following, they say, sick whales in, or- Mm-hmm they're using former migratory routes, and then they go ashore. The, or the, the depth, uh, uh, it's a tidal situation. Mm-hmm. Like in Bay St. George a lot, we hear about strandings. It's good that people call us because these are, you know, you think a dolphin is a small animal, but it's- Mm it's huge. It's, like, 600 pounds or more. Yeah, yeah. And, and got that powerful tail, and just doesn't know that you're wanting to help- Mm-hmm uh, help it get back in the water. So it's always good to get the call first- Mm-hmm and then we'll help them, help the person there assess the sit- situation. Perfect. And, uh, and for the most part, like, when we get a large whale come to shore- Mm uh, you know, they, uh, people want action. Mm-hmm. They want you to do- Absolutely they want you to do something for this animal to get it out. Now, it is, that could be a humpback even, or a fin whale, or anything. Mm-hmm. You know, people, we try and tell people w- that, you know, there's an education process on the beach now. Absolutely. We don't do, we do not move these animals. These animals come ashore because they wanna die. Mm-hmm. And they don't wanna be pulled out and hauled around- Yeah and tortured. Mm. Like, you know, that German whale, their- Mm-hmm their while ago. And it's happened here a lot, too, you know? Mob gets, gets on your, gets on your case, and, "You're supposed to be able to do this. Where's the- Mm-hmm where's, where's the gear? Let's get this whale out." And I said, "No, this whale wants to die. We're, all we're, this whale came in here, it's a sick animal. You can tell his body condition's not good." Yeah. "It don't wanna drown." Yeah. And trying to get that through to people, you know, uh, I mean, there are groups that spend a lot of time, and effort, and money, flotation things and everything, they go get this whale out. And the whale can, uh, these whales might, you might think they are gone, they're just ready to die, but I've been in situations where a whale is just, everybody thought it was gonna die, and that whale went crazy swinging his tail around- Yeah, yeah and pulled it on the beach. Yeah. And so, you know, it's, that's the way I feel. Uh, now, if a- if animals that come ashore, say, icing trap dolphins, or- Yes, that's different. Yeah um, these are healthy animals. They just got- Mm-hmm in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yeah. And you can do something for them. Mm-hmm, yeah. And, uh, and in a lot of cases we don't know, like, people call us up from, say, Bay St. George, or Stephenville, or something. S- they say, "These whales are on a beach, and I got video of it. They were just crashing around. Something happened. They were getting untied and they were feeding." And then we push them out, which is fine, you know. Yeah, yeah. If they, they wanna be there, then- Yeah that's the animal. Yeah, yeah. 'Cause we can go everywhere. Of course, strand- stranding require an immediate response Yes, absolutely. These animals are not designed to support the weight of their entire body on their organs. This is not how they're built. So- Or be, or be stuck in the sand you know. Yeah. Well, that's it, too, right? Yeah. Or be stuck somewhere. So with large whales, typically when they strand, it's not an accident. With smaller whales like dolphins and, and pilot whales, I know, like, we see sometimes, and I know there's a history in this area of some mass strandings, um, out on the islands in Bon Vista Bay. Um, and so when you have had mass strandings before, because my understanding is that those are different typically, again, because they're in such, um, well-developed social structures that often, like you said, they'll follow another sick animal in, and then everybody ends up on the beach, whether they're sick or not, right? So, um, you've been involved with those before, I'm guessing. So what's the procedure there? I guess it's very different. I haven't been involved in, like, you know, ma- well, mass. I- Mm-hmm you know, three or four animals, I guess that's mass stranding too. Yeah, yeah. We haven't been involved in any, like, you know, 80 or hundreds. And there have been- Yeah you know, on the, on the, on a Port au Port, on the Burin Peninsula down in, uh, Point aux Galets, you know, like in the '70s or s- before our time at it was- Mm-hmm 180 or 90-odd animal, pilot whales that came ashore. Crazy. And, m- you know, uh, uh, people, uh, like the fourth Chris, uh, the three or four that come ashore, you know, and people try and get them out and- Yeah m- and, uh, it's the same thing. They call us, and a six-hour drive. And by the time we get there- Yeah gonna be dead. Yeah, exactly. Sorry. Well, DFO officers engage, and wildlife, provincial wildlife officers, they'll engage and help too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's a big problem. We haven't seen- Yeah anything like that for a, a long time. I know, I think the one that happened, um, out on the islands of Bonavista Bay, I wanna say was, like, '70s or early '80s, but I know there's a significant amount of bones on that beach because it was... I- it's not a... Like, people don't even live out there. So there was a mass stranding event, but it wasn't like anybody- Mm-hmm was there to help when it happened. You know what I mean? So it was But there's also, uh, uh, in Southern Bay and those places, there's also whale hunting there. Yes, there was there. Yeah. Exactly. So yeah, at, that's, um, so Chris's grandparents would have been involved with the whale hunt, and that of course was for the, the meat for the mink farm. So they would drive- Yeah the pilot whales all the way into Charleston, so down through Southern Bay and to the, onto the beach in Charleston, um, and then shoot them once they were out of the water, and then process them for the meat for the mink farm. So we have a couple of bone beaches really close to, um, Princeton where they would kinda tow them, um, the, what was left over there. And we used to take, uh, like we used to be able to get, um, like a fair amount of bones were still there, and some of them were almost, like because they had been buried intact, so sometimes you could see a bit and you would start to dig and you could find like the entire skeleton. But now, I mean, those bones are old. Yeah. I think they stopped when? In the late '60s, early '70s, something like that. So I mean, they are You know, they get beat up by the wind and the waves. The only thing really you find now are teeth and ear bones, just 'cause they're a little bit denser. They're made out of different things than the rest of the bone. So, um, and occasionally, because we had a whaling station right across the wharf, or right across from our wharf in Trinity Harbor in Magaddy Cove. Sounds like a great place to build a subdivision, doesn't it? I live at 6 Magaddy Cove. It's a beautiful place. Um, I can only imagine how it got its name. Uh, so we have found, we found a sperm whale tooth on the beach beside our wharf, and my assumption is that maybe they processed a sperm whale over there and somehow part of it floated over. Or I don't know. Um, but when we, my brother-in-law found it digging on the beach and was, uh, came home and was like, "This isn't anything, is it? It's, it's not anything. It's probably just a, a horn from a cow, right?" And I was like- "When was the last time you saw a cow around here?" And he's like- "That's a good point." And I was like, "Can I hold it?" 'Cause he was holding it in his hand, and I mean, a sperm whale tooth is very heavy, very dense, very different than like, you know, a horn from a cow that would be kinda light and empty, you know, hollow inside. And so, um, it was, yeah, it's most definitely a sperm whale tooth. And he let me keep it, which was really nice too. So I have that here. But I have looked in the records and I have not seen, um, a sperm whale like that was processed there. So I mean, who knows? But it's, it's interesting when you look at that part of our history too, right? So. Well, it, it could- I- Island's Eye there was a- Yeah dead one there like- But they, they could- in the '80s drift in dead too, right? Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. That happens a lot. Yeah. That's a good point. That's actually, that's one of the biggest problems with strandings there of large whales is that they come ashore and they're dead, right? Yeah. And then everybody first of all, they're like, "You should call someone about this like the science people." And- Yeah and that don't last very long. Next thing, the calls are, "How you gonna get that whale out of this? It's stinking the place up." It smells bad. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Can't leave it there. There's people with children here. There's dogs here. Yeah. And then it gets in the media. They can't, 'cause- Yeah dealing with those big animals is like, you know- It's, yeah you try to burn them. Can't tow it. It's a health hazard. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And you can't tow them out and go at sea, because now they're a navigation hazard. Exactly. Boats run into them. Yeah. Um, so it's a issue. So I know you and I have had conversations with this before because there was one in English Harbor many years ago. And so it's a whole like no one wants to be responsible. Is it the municipality? Is it fisheries? Is it the provincial government? You know, who is it actually that's involved? And I think ultimately it's often just a bunch of people who get together and take care of it on their own, isn't it? Um, uh, sometime. Not very often that happens with big whales. No. No. Well- They have no room. Yeah. Right? It's not a, it's not a five-minute, five-minute job when it's a big one- No that's for sure. No one will do it. So what is typically done there if there is a, if there is a dead whale on a beach in an area that's, it needs to be moved, I guess, in an area that's not remote, um, that might impact a community? Well, uh, you can tell them about the last one. Well, it, it, it depends, right? Mm-hmm. It's, it's in a... If it's in a community, then it's the community's responsibility to take care of it. Mm-hmm. If the community is unincorporated, then the province is supposed to take care of it. Mm-hmm. If it's in the water mark, then, uh, you know, before the high water mark, then it's- Mm-hmm DFO's responsibility. Mm-hmm. But recently there was a whale, uh- In Spaniards Bay in Spaniards Bay. Mm-hmm. It was taken off the beach there, and kind of stuck in a little cove called Mad Rocks in Bay Roberts. Okay. Okay. So it wasn't taken very far- Yeah but it seemed to stay in there. I don't know if it's still in there, but that's where- Okay the group that took it out put it. Yeah. But people call us all the time and say, "Well, what should we do with this dead seal? What should we do with this- Mm-hmm you know, dolphin?" Whatever. Yeah. And, and we're like, "Well, you know, you can bury it. You can- Mm-hmm uh, if it's in the harbor, you can ask the Harbor Authority to take care of it. Mm-hmm. Uh, or people just take it out to a small beach that no one goes to and- Yeah and they leave it there. Yeah, so it's like- And, and, and if it's, like, a rarer species or species of concern- Mm. Yes uh, it's like a northern bottlenose or Sowerby's whale or Sowerby's beaked whale or- Mm-hmm two- Yeah or Cuvier's or whatever, then we'll go- Yeah and, and do a necropsy on the animal. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, uh, in, in la- in most of it, because once you touch it in the community, then it's yours. You gotta deal with it. So then you, sometimes we flense the whole animal down, animal down and just take the bones and the rest of the stuff goes out in the ocean. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But, but then you get, then it's a huge job, like cut down, to deal- Yeah with all this animal. Yeah. So it's, and, uh, and, uh, it's, it's an, it's a, it's- You know, this last one we had is just typical of, you know, the calls never stop. No, no. The town calls, the, the people call, and they're stinking the place up. "What are you gonna do about it?" Yeah. "That's your job, isn't it?" And all this sort of stuff, and... Yeah. You gotta get, get answer the phone. Yeah, right? You know what it's gonna be. And some people- Some people think it's still alive, you know? Yeah, yeah. Like, that, I mean, that's so kind. They call- Because it's moving, 'cause the water is- That- moving it, right? Yeah. Yeah. But that's okay. I, you know, I mean, we say it's a big thing that people keep calling, but that's okay. Mm-hmm. That's why we're here, and we try to redirect their call or, or advise them of the- Yeah situation. So. Yeah. And I think, too, it's better that people know that they know who will have the answers, so they can call and find out who has the answers if the information- Yeah has not been widely distributed, um, yet. So that's, that's a good point. Uh, uh, like, uh, everybody calls us because our number's out there. Yeah. You can't get a hold of the government or DFO in, uh, uh- Yeah off-hours, or most of the time you can't get a hold of them anyway. Yeah. Uh, and so they just want someone to talk to. Yeah. Like, about, about a seal, right? Yeah. "Well, this is now seal to be up here. Just leave it for a day, and it'll go, and it'll go back in the water. And if it don't, call us back again." And- Yeah so, uh, it's just somebody, uh, g- having someone to talk to on the, on the end of the ph- phone, which is pretty rare these days anyway for wh- any- Yeah, that's true. You're automated and talking to AI or whatever. I mean, it's a very different thing- Yeah leaving a message and hoping someone calls you back. Um, I know the first one that I remember calling you about a stranding for here was the one in English Harbour, and it had no head. Mm. Or this is how it's reported, of course, right? And so can you explain why sometimes whales that have died offshore and come in up here, well, really a lot of marine mammals this happens with, why it appears that they have no heads when they make it to us? I know the answer, but I only know because you told me, so you go ahead. Well, I don't know just j- what, uh... But anyway, w- when a, a large whale dies and is drifting around for, for a, for a, a, a long time, eventually this, just the, the, the bones fall away from the skull. Mm-hmm. And so, uh, and, and then it comes in and look, there's no head. Mm-hmm. But, uh- I mean, those jawbones are massive and dense, right? Yeah. So it, I guess it makes sense that, you know, things let go and those leave. Thousands of pounds in some of them. Yeah, right. Big, um, jawbones. Yeah. And, uh, the other stuff, but, uh- And then as the decay process continues, the muscle tissue looks like it has white hair. Yeah. Right? So it looks hairy. So then I've had reports from people, like, seeing, like, a sea monster- Right um, and those kinds of things. Yeah. Yeah. We had one sea monster there. Um, how long, how long ago was it now? 19- Uh, 15, 20 years ago 20 years ago. S- it was down in, uh- Mm uh, Pitcairn Beach and- Mm-hmm on Fortune Bay. Mm-hmm. And was in Burn. So it was all over the news, 'cause apparently some MDs from Upper State New York were out, get up to this beach, and they said there was a, there was a po- there was a, a walrus or a polar bear had fur, right, on it. Mm-hmm. Now everybody is up, and a, and a, and it's all over the news that, uh, that this animal is up there. Yeah. And now it's become a, a monster. Yeah. And, uh, so I went down to go l- go... to went down to go look at it. And, uh, the peop- one of the guys down there said, "Now, boy," he said, "when you goes up there," he said, "you come back and say that's the queerest thing ever you saw in your life," he said, "'cause we wanna get some tourists down here." Like a rare bird situation. Yeah. Right, rare bird. Yeah, yeah. So then I've looked at it, and here's this, you know, gigantic piece of, uh, turned out to be sperm whale. Oh. Ah. And all that- Yeah, 'cause- And it had been rolling in the kelp- Wow and it looked like hair, right? Yeah. Yeah. All the stringy, stringy, uh- Yeah tissue hanging off it and full of k- kelp. It had been rolled on the bottom. This had washed up. Yeah. And so we did the DNA on it, uh, uh, through university here and, and said- Mm yes, part of a sperm whale. And that was- Confirmed that it's a sperm whale that's where it had been encountered, right. Wild. I mean- Sometimes if you don't know what you're looking at, your brain will just make stuff up, right? Yes. And then it kind of gets, it gains momentum. It's like that telephone game you used to play when you were kids. You whisper something to someone, and they whisper it to someone else, and by the time it gets to the end of the line, it has n- it doesn't resemble what actually was said in the You know? So I feel like sometimes- So accurate. Yeah Yeah, it's pretty crazy. I remember, uh, Chris went with you once, uh, on a sei whale, I don't know if we'll call it a rescue. So a sei whale had come ashore, and it was alive when it came ashore off the- Yeah, and that was off Catalina off Catalina. Yeah. So Catalina has a lighthouse that's just off the shore, and the lighthouse keepers have to go there and stay there while they're on shift. And they were super excited to welcome you guys there. I remember you had quite a, had a, you know, some good stories about the visits there. Mm-hmm. Um, but the whale did die before you guys got there, and so you were collecting samples. But he brought home some baleen, which you so graciously cut out for him. And he came home, and we were living at the, at, at our cabin in, in Southern, or, uh, Long Beach then. And he, it was on the back of the truck. So he came home when it was night, and I went to sleep. And I woke up in the morning and, and he was off doing whatever, and I kept smelling this smell. And I cleaned the house. I was like, "There's this awful smell." And I had talked to him, and he said, "It's the, it's the baleen." And I was like, "No, it's not." And I think, "The, the truck's way up there. It's not, it's not the baleen." But no, I, I'll just keep cleaning. So I cleaned and cleaned and cleaned, and I- And I kept cleaning, and I could still smell the smell. And then I took the garbage out, and I was like, "Whoa." I opened the door like, "What is that smell?" And it was the baleen, and it was, you know, like 50 feet from the house in the back of a truck in a bag, and it smelled that strong. Uh- Mm in the end, we just sunk it in a net bag off, um, off the cabin in the water and let nature take care of what was left on it so it didn't smell anymore, and it doesn't smell now. But, um, I, and I have, we have had encounters with whale parts, uh, since then, and it's, the oil is, um, it's persistent. Yeah. I'm sure. So when you do have to do necropsies on these whales, I mean, it's not like they're freshly dead usually, and even when they are, they're still, I mean, it's still oily and smelly. So, you know, it must be, it must, must be quite a job sometimes. Well, jobs stand up 'cause you suit up. Yeah, I bet. You put on a- I bet, yeah. 'Cause it's not like- Well, it- you can just sit beside it and do it. It's, you gotta get in there, right? Right. Yeah. Right. It's usually, uh, three days. After three days, you don't stink anymore. But before then, just keep your hands away from your nose, and don't go in, you know, c- crowds, you know? Your company's not gonna be happy. But our neighbor- That's the rule of thumb. Yeah. Totally our, our neighbor said, "We had a whale," and it came from Black Tickle area. Mm-hmm. Uh, Black Duck Creek. And, and, and we brought it back. It was a minke whale, and we- Mm-hmm brought it back, and we stopped at a friend's house in, uh, Shoal Harbour and spent the night. Yep. And when, when we left- The trailer had been leaking, and they came out and s- you know, their neighbors and them scrubbed the, the roadway, 'cause it smelled so bad. Oh, no. And, uh, uh, the same thing, uh, the same thing happened when we brought it back and we were, you know, processing it here. 'Cause we used to have summer students work with us. Hmm. Yeah. And th- they were great. We had a great lot of summer students over the years, and they would be using, uh, uh, hose and, and, uh, um, spraying the, the bones and cleaning it. Mm-hmm. And some neighbors did comment that there was a smell. I can imagine the smell. Uh- So I know you guys have taken... So when you did, did those ones, were you keeping the bones to sort of re-articulate the skeleton? 'Cause I know you've told me before that you have some dolphins and a few other species, um- Yeah, we have a, a, a s- minke whale that we bring to events and let people put together, and we used to go to schools around the province. Hmm. We went to every coastal school, um, in the 2000s and, and visited and brought these bones with, and so that- Mm-hmm uh, s- students could put, you know, re-articulate the skeleton themselves. We like it that people can touch the animal and- Yeah and, uh- Yeah be familiar with it that way, with the bones that way. Sorry. Uh- I think being on the water, you're only seeing such a small piece of it. And even when we are out there and know what we know, when we do encounter whales and can see them in a different way, it d- gives you a completely different perspective. So there's a minke whale skeleton at the Chamois West Aquarium to be able to... I got to do some talks. Um, they used to do Whale Wednesdays, and I would talk underneath the whale, you know, about the whale, which was really neat to be able to do and give people a different perspective on the size, right? Um, and even when I taught biology in Alberta, um, they had a discussion about, um, you know, that they have these femurs that are still in their bodies, and what was that all about. So talking about, like, sort of evolutionary biology and- Mm-hmm um, this whole concept of, like, vestigial features, so things that are sort of left over from, um, you know, evolution that aren't really used anymore. Uh, so it sort of, it sort of gives people a different, um, idea. We have a Um, a sperm whale scapula on our deck, and people ask me repeatedly if it's a tail, 'cause it's, you know- Oh it kind of, like, fanned out, right? Yeah, yeah. And so, um, but again, you know, yours is the size of your hand. This is how big theirs is. So it just kind of gives you a perspective on, you know, what you're dealing with. Um, but yeah, I think it's, it's important for people to be able to see things like that as, as, you know, it sucks when we lose whales. It does every time. Any time there's an entanglement or one that washes up, um, and it's certainly a loss for the population. But if somehow that can be used for education and to sort of further awareness, then I think that's really important. I know you guys are- we're kind of kindred spirits that way, so we kind of think, think the same way about those kinds of things. I think it's really important to teach people about these animals and the issues they face. I know I read a book that was published, I think in, like, the late 1990s, so I mean, it's now 26 years old, that, that said, um, it estimated... She was from New England, um, that about one third of the population at that time bore scars from entanglements. And I wonder, I mean, we do still see quite a few. And of course, they're long-lived animals. I mean, we're, we're seeing whales even this week that were identified here in the late 1970s. So it's not like, you know, it's not like something with a very short life cycle where all those ones have kind of moved through. So we're definitely still seeing animals that were around when there were cod traps and, like you said, gear everywhere where you could walk across the harbor on the floats. Um, do you... Uh, I mean, maybe you don't have an answer for that, but I wonder now if, if are we seeing less that are entangled or, or less that have scars from entanglement or more, or is it, uh, remaining about the same? I mean, it's, that's a really hard question. What do you think? Well, there is a, there is documentation in BC that half of the humpback whales seen- Ah are whales that have been entangled before. Mm-hmm. I think it's just we haven't done that work here. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean- Well, and, uh- Go ahead. It's, uh, you know, I know that every whale we work on, they have scars 'cause there are big Yeah mobile when we're helping. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But we don't have, like... W- we don't have time to go, uh, worry about getting photography usually. No. It's- You do not. No. Yeah. And, uh, and we're not, and we, and we're, we haven't the s- the set program where we go out and... And we could, it could be done here. Someone with, you know... You, you guys know more about that now. Yeah. You're follow, uh, following the whale tails, right? Yeah, yeah. Uh, but, uh, we don't, uh, we, we, we, we, uh, the, don't do that or that, that- No. So okay, here's a question, 'cause I'm thinking, like, maybe we could write a paper on this, but I'm only generally only taking pictures of tails. Like, we do take pictures of their backs and their, you know, if they're flipper slapping or whatever. If I were to try to have a look at, like, our whole data set and figure out who has scars, say, on the tails, because that's the biggest data set I have, how many of the whales that you are dealing with even have gear wrapped around their tails? Like, would that be a valid look at who has scarring if it's just the tail, 'cause you s- like a lot of them have it through their mouth and wrapped around their flippers, and I don't get to see that very often, right? You're not gonna see that at all. But I got- Or anywhere from the fin back to the, you know, peduncle all the way- Yeah, yeah, yeah to tail. I mean, I'll see pretty much the entire peduncle when they're doing a, a terminal dive, but- Yeah. Oh, that's a big area of looking at entangled- 'Cause you're not gonna see it on the tail itself. You're gonna see it on the peduncle where it's right around- Yeah, exactly, where it's wrapped. I mean, there are a few where it's come down through and you can definitely see that there are, like, where the lines have cut through the- Oh, yeah. You can see it on their back where they've been cut through the back or, you know- Yeah where we're talk- you know, there's- Yeah where there's been cutting to their back. There's You see a lot of them, too, like that. Mm-hmm. That's true. Uh, yeah. That's true. I mean, that might be worthwhile to go through and just have a look and see, you know, how many look like they have been entangled. I know that there's, um, there seems to be a pretty distinct pattern of whales being, um, coming to, you know, reliably to a certain feeding ground and, and being in that feeding ground, um, every year. And I know even it's been, it's been interesting, and we know that this happens, but even this week we've had whales that were identified on the same day in different years in the same area. Yeah. So, like, if you're traveling, I can't even, like, I You know, how do, how do you get to the same area? You don't have a phone or a calendar. You know, like, for them to be showing up within a day or two of when they've been seen in that same feeding area reliably, I mean, that's, that's really remarkable when you think about it. Yeah. Um, you know, so- They don't have, they don't have a big lot else to do. They don't have to worry about a mortgage. They don't have to worry about a payment on the truck. They just gotta worry about getting A to B. Gotta get there in time for whatever, you know? I know. 'Cause that's all you can really say. They know. They know, like, okay, I'm in, uh Over the years, you know, they know, okay, there's a bloom off, say, Sandlands and something- Yes. Yeah Fortune Bay. Yeah. Now, these whales know. Yeah. Yeah. And they go up there and they clean that up, and then they're gone. Then they don't come- Yeah might not be back for another month. On to the next species. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they know when the, when the capelin's in. They know where it is. Yeah. And, uh, they don't just go out swimming around just for a swim. Yeah. You know? Well, that's just it. They, wherever they're going, they're seeing their food. Yeah. And, uh- They're not sightseeing. Yeah, but they know, but they know how to take the currents. This is what amazes me. Yeah. They know how to not expend a lot of energy- Yes, that's true to get to A to B. Yeah. They use the- Well- currents in the ocean. So they'll go, you know, down to the C- Caribbean- Mm-hmm and they go on out on the ocean currents and- Yeah make their way there. They, they know when to leave. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, just It's like the, uh, old schooners here that went across the ocean to go- Yes and bring back fish. They, they know what the weather was like, when to go. Yeah. Yeah. And especially humpback whales. They can sail 'cause they got those big- Fins and they stick them out into the, stick them out into the ocean or swell answer. I mean, that, doesn't it get another couple knots there? They look like an airplane sometimes. Yeah. Right? It's pretty crazy, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think the more that we learn, the more questions we have. So, you know, you never know what you might find out. I'm sure, you know, even in your time working with these animals, just some wild things that have completely changed. Like now we know X, Y, Z, where before we just thought it was that, you know, or whatever. Mm-hmm. Um, so, you know, the more we, the more we learn and how technology changes, right? So that we can see more. You know, have you guys ever used, like, underwater cameras? I know sometimes you have someone in the water with a face in the water with a mask on so you can see a little bit more of what's happening. And, um, do you have time or space to have an underwater camera to have a look at those animals? Well, we, we do that now more. Yeah. We try to get a picture underwater of what's happening. Mm-hmm. And I mean, past, we had already thought about it, but we were too, you know- Yeah focused on let's get the whale out. But now we try to take that picture- Mm-hmm uh, a video in order to, uh, give us a better understanding of what the gear is on the whale. Yeah, 'cause you can see more, right? We- Yeah I mean, we don't, we only see such a small fraction of that animal. Uh, so what are we missing, right? Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Well, another, one of the thing that disappoints me, well, actually makes me mad- is, uh, so-called, like humpbacks, right? Yeah. We know where humpbacks go. Right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. We know they go, they go a certain place. Yeah. Uh, they know they come back. Yeah. And we know enough about their migration that we don't need to be tormenting them. They're, in many places, they're classified as a second-class citizen, where you can get money to go put s- tags on whales. Mm-hmm. And, I, I mean, like, intrusive tags on humpbacks. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that should be stopped, because all you're doing is tormenting these animals. You're not getting any other information from them. What other information do we need from them? Why can't we leave them alone? Mm-hmm. Uh, there's been enough tags, taggings done on humpbacks, uh, and s- and every one who calls themselves a whale scientist probably has a crossbow, and probably is trying to put a tag on it. For what? Mm-hmm. You know? All they're doing is tormenting the animals. We know, we know enough about them that, that we don't need to be doing that kind of stuff. Yeah. Just because you get money to get, uh, grant money to go and do it because they're humpbacks. Yeah. You can't do that with a right whale. Mm-hmm. You gotta get a letter from God to touch them. But you can do it on a humpback, and you can do it down in the United States, and you can do it up in Canada. Mm-hmm. And everybody thinks it's cool and sexy, but, you know, it's already done. Mm-hmm. And I think- I'd love to know where some of the other species go that we don't have that kind of information on. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. I mean, we did enough of that. He- we did a population census back in this, in the early '90s. Yes. Yeah. Went to get all the other, a lot of the other groups from the Northwest Atlantic. Yeah. So, we took enough biopsies and photo IDs and, out of these animals- Yeah to do, right? Yeah, yeah. Uh, but anyway. Um, what, when you did that, was it all species or just the humpbacks? We only did humpbacks. Yeah, yeah. Now, if we saw a fin whale or saw a blue whale, sure, we'd photo them. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Or, but, uh, we weren't taking bi- uh, biopsies from them, th- those animals. Yeah. But we, and you see, I think we saw two blue whales the whole time I was out there for three years. Yeah, right. We see a lot of fin whales. Yeah. I would love to know where the fin whales go. Mm. Like, what's going on there? Yes. You know, we don't really know where they go. We don't know where, we don't know where they calve. We don't know where they breed. We know they eat when they're here. That's all we know, right? Mm. And they're fast and they're big. That's it. Yeah. Right? I feel like, I mean, yeah. That would be a big thing. We have a massive data set I need to start cataloging. Like, we've been taking pictures forever. Just with humpbacks and sperm whales and orcas, it's been busy. So now we're finally starting to get caught up on some of that, so I think it might be time to delve into fin whale stuff. But they are harder, they're so much harder than the other species to- Mm-hmm look at it. Yeah. Oh, you're in Tofino. Is it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is Reg still around? Is sorry? Reg. He's coming back. He'll be here in 10 days. Oh. Yep. You gonna come visit? Does he still do the catalog? He stopped doing the catalog right after the pandemic. So he, he did some of our 2020 stuff, and then sort of has been helping us, um, sort of slowly hand it over. So we're, we're now doing the uploads to Allied Whale and, um, and cataloging it. We're almost completely caught up in cataloging in real time, which is a very big deal for us, 'cause before we were so far behind. So, um, we're getting there. Yeah, so that'll be a big deal. And then once you get caught up on one species it means you can add another one, right? Uh-huh. Yeah. And catch up again. Yeah, exactly, to catch up again. So, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a process. But man, if he hadn't... I mean, Chris and I talked about it for a long time but we're so busy doing other things, and so for Reg to get started with that was a big deal. And, um, yeah, we're hoping to do a podcast, like, from here when he's here so that we can talk about sort of how he got started and the work he's done. 'Cause I mean, his contribution processing that many pictures for that many years and really setting us up, um- Mm-hmm for success, um, has been vital, you know, to this, this research. So yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean, his contribution does not go unnoticed, that's for sure. What a character he is. Yeah, so I'll be talking to him in the next couple of weeks. You'll have to listen in to that one, for sure. Yeah. Um, thanks so much for joining me today, you guys. It's been so great, uh, to sit and chat. I always learn something. We always have good talks. Mm-hmm. I'll look forward to some of the stories that you didn't wanna share in public, Wayne. So I'll see you. I'll follow the book. Yeah. There may be a book coming out. Yeah. Oh, there should be a book. Another book. You've had one already. You've had more- Yeah than one already. Um, but yeah, it's, uh, it's always, it's always good to get to meet up with you guys and visit and, you know, I hope that next time I see you you're not out for a rescue, just for a, you know, a fun visit. We'll see. Um, but whatever it is, we always enjoy having you here. All right. Thanks, Shawna. Thanks, Shawna. Thanks so much, guys.