Welcome to Sea of Whales, the whale geek podcast, where whale watching and whale research meet. I'm your host, Shauna Prince, scientist and whale watch operator, bringing you conversations with whale researchers and ocean experts from around the globe. Let's dive in. Today we're joined by Reg Campen, citizen scientist and creator of our very own whale catalog. Welcome, Reg. Good morning. Thanks for joining me today. I guess we'll start today with, you know, how did you get into cataloging humpback whales? Start from the beginning. Yeah, okay. Um, well, when... What really started things off, I think, was that amongst a whole load of junk mail one day, there was, uh, a small brochure from a company that was offering wildlife holidays. Uh, and there was this enormous picture of a humpback tail And I said to my daughter, "That's for me. I really like that idea." Uh, but what I didn't like was a standard tour. So, you know, doing a bit of research and, and, uh, pretty much put the thing together myself. And originally when we came to, uh, Trinity, Newfoundland, we were only here for a few days. Um, and one particular year I remember we were here for four days. It rained from the time we flew in until the time we went home, and we saw one humpback about a mile and a half away. But it didn't stop us coming- And you still came back. Yeah. It, well, you know, it, it, it didn't stop us coming back and, and- Mm. I guess it's like so many things in life that the first time you see a whale blow, then it either catches you and catches your imagination or it doesn't. Mm-hmm. Uh, and the thing that as I got to learn more about their movements and so on, it just became a thing that I thought, "Wouldn't it be great if we had this stuff recorded so that the ones that we would see maybe once every three years, maybe once every five years, sometimes once every year, that we knew what was happening to them?" You know, it's a, it's a massive journey traveling from the Arctic down to the Caribbean, and there are so many things that can happen to these animals. Uh, you know, evidence over the years has shown me anyway that there is quite a large proportion of humpbacks, for example, who have got some form of damage on them. Either it's bites or it's, uh, propeller damage or that sort of thing. So that's what really started it off. And then, uh, when I originally started, I was only just taking photographs, and in those days you had to drive 45 miles, uh, 45 minutes up the road to get the things developed. And then when you looked at them, they were mostly awful. Um, it was only really when, uh, digital photography came along that it opened up, uh, a new vista really of, of what you could do. Um, and then after a while you got to know certain whales. Not, not that- Yeah uh, you had a conversation with them, but- Yeah you could recognize them by- The print on the back of the fluke which, as we know, is, is like a fingerprint. Um, and then somebody showed me a book which had been pr- uh, it, it's quite an old one, uh, you know, 20 years old, something like that, which had been produced by the College of the Atlantic in Bar Harbor, and it was a catalog book. And I thought, "Well, you know, we should do something with these pictures," otherwise what do you do with them? You take them, you take them home, you put them on the computer, and then you either forget them or after a while you delete them and you don't do anything with them. Yeah. And evidence has shown us, I think, over the years that by sharing those pictures with the people in Bar Harbor and also with the Happy Whale organization, that you find so much more information. Yes. I mean, one of our whales, uh, we call them our whales of course. Uh, one of them, uh, which had been here a few times was at one point photographed off of northern Russia. Mm. Now if you can imagine what journey that was from northern Russia down to the Caribbean. I mean, it is just an immense journey. Mm-hmm. And there were, there were others who you were really pleased to see them back. Yes. Yeah. If it was kind of three, four years or, or, or whatever, and you suddenly saw them back again and you thought, "Great, it survived another, another period- Yeah of time and all that journey and things- Yeah you know? Uh, so the catalog started pretty much like that, and we built our own histories. Um, it was only when, uh, the people at Bar Harbor, I think originally, uh, said, "Look, please send them to us, and then if we've got any information about them, we'll let you have it." And that gave you more... You kind of built up, uh, well, I suppose a sort of, uh, a life history of the animals where it was possible. I mean, some whales you would know almost at sight that you'd seen them before. Yes. Yeah. And then there were others where the pattern is very, very similar and, and, you know, it was quite difficult, but to get any information about them, uh, and to know when they were, when they were first seen, uh, and how old they were- Yeah you know, it, it, it, to me it was a fascination. Uh, and it added more to going out, seeing a whale, taking a photograph, and then taking it home. Mm-hmm. You know, I used to ask other people who were other whale watchers who were out with us, if I'd not got a particularly good picture, if they'd got good pictures, would they send them on? Mm-hmm. Everybody said yes, and very few people did it, which I guess is kind of human nature really. When you get- Yeah back off of a, a, a trip, you unpack your summer stuff and, and, uh, the pictures get forgotten about. Yeah. Yeah. And how much data was lost because of that, you have to wonder, right? Well, sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it, there... Given the number of whales there are in the North Atlantic, uh, it is amazing really that you do see the same characters coming back. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and some of them are desperately not interested in you. Others, let's be honest, a whale's existence is pretty damn boring, isn't it, you know? You, you're swimming around and you're eating, and then you go down for breeding, and that's your life. Yeah. So it's not really that surprising that when you're out on the boat, and it's not every whale that does it, but you'll have some whales who are really interested in, in you, and they'll come up alongside and their head will come up and, you know, it's all part of the, to me, it's all part of the, the, the mystery of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. But cataloging takes a lot of time. Yes, it does. It does. And I don't think that people really appreciate that, um, the amount of time. And I, having taken over the cataloging with lots of help from our summer students, um, since, uh, I think y- the last one you processed was 2020, right? Uh, no- Was during the pandemic years. It was certainly before COVID, yeah. Yeah. And then so, you know, it's l- it's a lot, and you were doing it... You know, you were getting all the pictures, but you were doing the cataloging by yourself. And I mean- Yeah just the, ah, when you have to manual match, like we have most of our, uh, whales on Flickr, and to have to like have a tail... I have a two-screen system now, which really helps to like flip through the pictures- Yeah in the catalog and have the, you know, the one you're looking at because you, as you said before, it's like an ink blot test, so you'd find like one shape that you thought was really distinctive- Absolutely by the time you look through 10 or 15 or 20 tails, like I gotta look at that again, you know? And it's, it's hard on your eyes, it's hard on your head. Um, and sometimes it's just really difficult to- Yeah, but, but it is- But shouldn't it's also quite surprising the number of those fluke prints w- which will have something special about them. Absolutely. Yeah. That you'll look at it and something i- I mean, there, there, there's one whale which I call Bingo, which if you look at the fluke, appears to have numbers written on his fluke. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's all part obviously of the, uh, of the random pattern, but, um- It's really the way that I would identify them Mm-hmm. For sure. And some, some would stay in your brain and others wouldn't, 'cause, you know- Mm-hmm with, with the number of individuals that are out there, what is it, 10,000 or alleged to be- I think we're at 13,000 now in the catalog. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and, you know, trying to remember every one of them, but there are some which just stick in your mind, and there are others that don't. And some with stories that then are a hook that haves, have you remember that tale, you know? So, uh, you know, nice little segue into talking about one who we were particularly interested in seeing return was Angie, of course. Oh, yeah. Um, and I know that you were, you were out on that boat trip when we first saw her off of Cape Bonavista, and that really ugly, awful scar. And, you know, when they arch the back and, like, that wound would open up and you were just like, "Ugh, this whale is going to die for sure. This is such a significant injury." And she's been back and back and back and back, you know, with calves, and obviously making the migration and feeding very effectively despite the fact that she had this massive chunk cut out of her peduncle. And it looked... I mean, when we first saw her, we assumed that her s- spinal cord had been severed. I mean, it's a significant chunk taken out of the back there. And somehow, you know, she survived, and has not only survived, but thrived, you know, throughout these years. I think 2009 was our first, um, sighting of her. So, you know it, uh, some of them, I mean, you really, you wonder about their welfare and then, you know, when they come back and it's such a pleasure to actually be able to tell one whale from the next and, um, know that they're doing okay. Right. I mean, she, she is... You know, because we have seen her so many times, uh, it- Mm-hmm she's particularly special, isn't she, you know? She is, yeah. And, and she's the only whale I think we have ever seen. Most of them, um, the meeting of each half of the fluke is just a very clean point. In her case, where each side of the fluke meets in the middle, there is a little bump That comes up Yeah And I think that is- Almost like a secondary tail. Yeah. It's, it's... Or perhaps another one growing, you know? Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But I, I think, you know, saying, saying about Angie, um, these animals have an amazing capacity to survive despite what humans do to them- Yeah in one form or another. Uh, I do remember, uh, we saw a whale one year, I think it was the last time I went out, which had an entanglement, uh, and it had a piece of rope through the middle of its fluke hanging over the back, and we couldn't do anything about it. We had Wayne Ledwell, the, the, uh, whale rescue guy from Newfoundland and Labrador, he came out, just could not get near this whale. So we kind of thought, "Well, doubtful that it's gonna survive." First picture that somebody took next year was that very same whale. Yeah. It's just, you know, it, it, it is quite amazing. Mm-hmm. It really is. And you, over the years, you develop your favorites, I think. Yeah. You're particularly pleased to see them come back. And the ones you're looking for, you know, year to year, right? So it's such a pleasure when we get to see them. Um, and then of course, you started helping us to catalog the sperm whales too, which was a big learning curve for all of us because- We don't, we hadn't really done sperm whales before, and initially we only had, you know, one sperm whale, and then we had two, and then we had- Yeah 15, and then we had 25, and then we had 30. I mean, it's just- continued to grow. And I mean, sometimes I'm still not 100% sure about, you know, how much does that trailing edge of the tail change and, you know, can you say that this is definitely this whale and not that whale? With some of them they're very similar without distinguishing markings, so it makes it really difficult. But, you know, we do the best we can, and we've certainly had, you know, a lot more of those boys than we ever thought we would when we first started with that too, so. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's been- Well, I, I think when, when we saw the first sperm whale off of- Mm-hmm Bonaventure Head- Yeah um, in Trinity Bay, uh, nobody had seen a sperm whale in the area. Or if they had- No they had just assumed it was a humpback or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty cool to have them- Yeah come back. I know there are, um, there are some records of sperm whales being taken, and there was one that was dead that was taken, that died and was brought into Magady Cove, which is just across the harbor from our wharf, and was flensed there. Um, someone told me about that recently. Just to like, not flense, but like they did a necropsy to find out what had killed it and harvested some parts. And that's probably the whale that the tooth that we found on our beach came from, because where did that come from? How would it- Yeah how did that get buried in our beach, right? Um, and so it's, uh, it's interesting. And we actually have a, um, a shoulder blade, uh, that, uh, the Beamish family has lent to us to have here to show our customers, and that's from that whale also. Yeah. So, um, you know, nice to have those kinds of things to show them to people. Um, and just kind of let them know, like the size. It's really hard to get a concept of size, uh, until you see, um, you know, an animal breach very close to the boat or swim very close to the boat or if you have, um, skeletons like what they have at, you know, the Champneys West Aquarium or, um, you know, we have a tooth here, you know, things like that so that it kind of gives people a better perspective of what they're dealing with. Um, because you can't go stand beside a whale and measure up, you know, how big you are usually, uh, under... well, healthy whales, you know, those kinds of things. So it makes it, it makes it a little bit more difficult to do that. Yeah. Um- Yeah, I know there are always the times when you are out and, uh, for some reason the whale doesn't cooperate. Mm-hmm. A humpback will come up and y- you think your, the fluke is gonna come up and you're gonna get the perfect print, and what happens is it just lays along the surface and then dives. No paparazzi please. They don't want their boss to know where they are. No paparazzi. Right? Yeah. It's really tricky. I don't want my wife to know where I am. Exactly. I know that, um, the Turks and Caicos group has been, you know, doing some, uh, dorsal fin matching and having some good success with that, and they've also been compiling, um, a pectoral fin catalog because they see a lot of whales, but they don't see, you know, they don't have the, the tails coming out when they're in such shallow nursery areas. Oh, really? And, um, matching, uh, underwater shots sometimes is really difficult, uh, if there's not really distinguishing features on the tail. And so that's something that they've been doing. So, you know, moving forward, there may be more than just the tail that's being able to be used, which is helpful. Um, but you know, we have to be more cognizant of getting more features photographed because we don't always do, you know, we don't always have the full sequence of, um, a whale surfacing and those kinds of things, so trying to help out with that as well. I think you will need a much larger staff if you're gonna start cataloging dorsals. Yeah. It's just the most impossible thing. I know, and like- I think, you know. I mean, uh, some of, some of them have maybe a little mark on it, but it is just incredibly difficult. Mm-hmm. Now, I did, and I still have all of the pictures from the last 20-odd years. Mm-hmm. Um, and, uh, I did start to blow up the dorsals up on, but it just took so long. Mm. Yeah. You know? And, and- Yeah there are an infinite... Unlike, unlike the fluke print, the dorsal only has a limited number, I think, of shapes it can be. Yes. It's either a sort of hill-type shape or- Mm-hmm it's got a curve in it, or occasionally you get something which looks sort of- Not quite right in that it will be a, like part of a corkscrew, if you know what I mean. But, you know, you can imagine too with, with fin whales, because we have a massive fin whale data set that's just, you know, there, that really, you know, that's all we're getting is a dorsal and a chevron if we can see it. Um, and we can't always, depending on sea conditions and how high out of the water the animal is, and lighting conditions, and what side of the animal we're on, and all those kinds of things. So it's, uh, you know, it's- I mean, by the way- a much more difficult process you know, I know that fin whales are one of your great loves and, and- They sure are. Yeah they are, they are just amazing animals. Mm-hmm. Um, but I think when, when I started doing the cataloging, I did try to do fin whales as well- Mm and it just didn't work, you know. I mean, I, I suppose I got up to about 30, uh, and I th- this is way too difficult and it's taking- Mm-hmm way too much time. It's really hard. Yeah. You know, uh, and your chances of getting more information from other people, uh, you know, you would have to find a fin whale specialist down in, in the Caribbean who did nothing but photograph them. Uh- Yes. Yeah you know, humpback's so much easier. You know, you've got Andrew Stevenson in, uh, Bahamas and, uh- Mm-hmm. Bermuda. Yep you've got Turks and Caicos. Uh- Mm-hmm you've got all these other people dotted around. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, I d- the thing that I think- Forward, and this is not strictly what you asked me, but thinking forward and the way that the, um, the world is generally warming, once the Northwest Passage is clear at the top of North America, what the heck is gonna happen then? What is already happening potentially is the question, right? Yeah, but sure we don't know, do we? No. No. But what was... The other one that we- I mean- we should mention was that picture which was identified, I think it was Chris's picture that was identified as not having been seen for, what was it, 30 years or something. Something like that. It was wild, yeah. It is, yeah. Where have you been? Yeah. What have you been doing? Oh, no, we don't really- Yeah, right know that. Yeah. I mean, so crazy, right? I- Yeah I have often said, you know, if these whales could tell their stories, what kind of stories would they tell? I mean, it's quite a tale if you're a world traveler like they are, right? Well, it, it must be, um, a great thing- To, to be operating some form of... I mean, if we, if we had a marine research unit in the area somewhere and they could also tag these whales so that you would know where they finished up. But- Mm-hmm I suppose like most things it comes down to it's not lack of interest, it's basically funding. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And tags don't stay on that long, you know? So they're a short-term thing. It's not, it's not like when they band birds and they have them on their whole lives, right? Sure, yeah, yeah. It's just so very different with whales. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I would love to know where, where fin whales go. I would love to know that. The mysteries. And I think pretty much every other whale person too, right? They're one of those, like, mysterious fly under the radar giants, right? So- Yeah so weird. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah- And the speed that they move at just is- Yeah it's, it's an amazing thing to see. Yeah. It really is. It really is. It was only, I think, when, um, we used to have, uh, a guy up here, uh, who came from the UK and had been coming here for, for years, and I'm sure you'll remember, Bruce Moore. Yes. Yeah. Bruce absolutely loved fin whales. He did. And I, I couldn't see it first of all, and then he'd be talking to me about this and that on the boat and, and gradually you thought, "What have I missed all this time?" Yeah. Right? Second-largest by 10 feet, like, who cares when they're that big? 10 feet's like, you know. Yeah. Um, and I think it's the air of mystery that surrounds them too and, you know, when you talk to other whale people a lot of them feel the same as we do, you know, about that, right? So Bruce, I remember, uh, saying to me one time, we were on the back of the boat and we had been with a fin whale, and it was like my job was to keep an eye on a fin whale while everybody else watched, I think, humpbacks in the front of the boat. And eventually it just, like, I, I didn't see it again. And he said to me, he turned around and was like, "It's damn irresponsible to lose something that size." Like it's something a little tiny that just fell out of your pocket. A 90-foot-long creature that has this blow that's crazy high, like how... You know? But I mean, fin whales are like freight trains, they just go. Yeah. Right? And, uh, yeah, so I, I will always remember that. The... And all the conversations on the back of the boat, you know? So, so many of us are sitting in the back having- Like deep philosophical, scientific and- Yeah, absolutely and life-changing conversations In the middle of the whale watch. Um, and so yeah, I mean, there's been so many of those over the years for sure. Um- Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I, I really, I really don't mind, um, someone who just wants to go and see a whale. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If that, i- if that's part of their bucket list, absolutely fine, but some of those people you are gonna catch for life, you know? Yes. I was gonna say they're lifers, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some people are definitely gonna say, "Wow, that was so good. I must go and see that again." Yeah. Yeah. So how many years have you been speaking from one lifer to another? How many years ago did you start here? Uh, oh, gee, it must have been, uh... It's getting pretty close to 30 years, I suppose. Yeah. But yeah, as I said, you know, one of the first times we came here it rained for four days. We didn't see very much, but we still came back the next year. 'Cause if you're that interested, um, and also this is kind of a, a, a special place. If you, if you have trouble sleeping at home, come, uh, to, uh, the Bonavista Peninsula, move into a B&B, and you will sleep like a log. The beds are like enormous marshmallows. They envelop you when you get into them. Yeah. And you'll certainly- Yeah have no problem sleeping. Yeah. And it's just- Yeah the atmosphere is, it is so low stress that that is all part of the experience. You know, you, you come here if you'd, if you've not been sleeping well at home, there's a pretty fair chance that you'll be knocked out here for like 10 hours or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's all- Yeah I think that's all part of it. Yeah, for sure. I know, um, one of the other people I had interviewed, Pat, uh, Porc Huli from Ireland, I think it was, who said it, you know, like beautiful places and great people tend to- Yeah like whales tend to congregate, or people tend to congregate in beautiful places, you know, where there are whales and great people, right? So it just like, it seems like that's the way it is. And, um, so far the other whale places that we've visited have been very similar to that, so I would have to agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty cool. I d- you know, I think with, um, with- You will find, I'm just trying to phrase my words correctly here, um, it has been said before, and it is just so true, that no Whale Watch trip is the same as any other There will always be something you see that you haven't seen before. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever it happens to be, you know? Um- Or conditions or light or- Yeah you know, like, I mean, there's 100 things that are different, and some people just don't understand that it's different every time, right? Well, like, you know, we... This is, this is not to, uh, be derogative about them, but some people, as soon as they hear the word blow have got their cameras up straight away and they're clicking away. A- and, and the whale is about a mile and a half away. Well, as I said earlier, what you're gonna get is a black matchstick in a gray sea Yeah And, uh, but if that's what somebody wants, why not? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. It's, um, it's a pretty bad weather day here in Trinity Yeah, yeah. Well- As you're saying that, right? Right. It's a pretty bad weather day here, and so it's not fit for, I mean, anybody outside right now. It's, it's high winds and we're, we're hearing some thunder out there, and it's, uh, heavy rain and, uh, we are having our annual day off, as a friend of ours says. Yeah. You get one a year, and that's today. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, it's, it's always interesting to, um, you know, people's perception of things, right? So I mean, we know that it's not great conditions today. Um, and we've certainly all been out in conditions that are less than stellar and, and have lots of memories from those trips too. Um, but sometimes it's the ones where, you know, I, I think you and I have both been on trips before where it's thick fog and you're expecting, you know, not much, right? Yeah, but the, the, there's- And then something crazy happens There is, there is a magic about being out in, in the fog and hearing blows come out where you've got no idea where they're coming from. Yeah. But there is something really spooky about it. Yeah. And also really intimate when you're with them and you're kind of all surrounded by fog, and it's just like you can only see so far, right? Yeah. And when you actually get to them, um, it's kinda special that way too. So, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I also think, um, you know, the cataloging thing is one thing, but there are times when you just... Once you've got a few pictures, put the camera away- Yeah and just look. Yeah. Because otherwise you're seeing everything through your viewfinder. Mm-hmm. And that is not what it's about really. Yeah. You know? I... It, it's, it's, it's a very difficult thing, I think, sometimes to combine the two. Yes, agreed. To take it all in while you're documenting it is a completely different, they're two completely different exercises. Yeah. Well, yeah, you kind of... I think it's, it's the thing that you... If you d- if you sit there and think, "I'm just gonna look," then you think- Mm "Hang on a minute, uh, I might miss that fluke. No, no, I better, I better, uh, get the camera ready." Uh, it, you know, there, there are times when it is nice just to go and just watch. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It is really nice to be able to do that. It's- I mean, we need to get the data, but at the same time it is nice to just be able to observe. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and people's, I think people's experiences are pretty much different. You know, either you're caught by the mystery of the animals or you're not, or, you know, seeing a whale is enough for you, or, "No, no, I must go back and see this again. How many other types of whale are there? I would like to see more of them." Yeah, I would like to collect them all. Yeah. Yeah. Birders do that. They have life lists. So, like, people who are whale watchers should have- Yeah life lists too, and I'm, many of us do, right? Yeah. I still need to see a gray whale. Yeah, well- We had a blue one come to our, you know, we had a blue whale come to our back door a couple years ago, so that was pretty sweet. Yeah. And I know you've seen them before too. Oh, I saw- But, um- I saw a young blue whale off of the Azores many years ago, and that's the only one I've ever seen. And the sea was heaving up. Uh, we were on a catamaran, and what I'd got was a blurry mess of a head in the sea. It was just impossible. Yeah. Yeah. But again- I mean, that's what they are. Yeah you, you, you know, getting the, getting the picture is not as important as retaining the memory. Yes, agreed. What I, hey, it's just reminded me, uh, uh, going off at a tangent here, uh, of do you remember the, um- The humpback that one of the, um, one of the guys working on the boat used to attract over by slapping a paddle on the water. And the humpback, the humpback would come over to the boat and just lie there looking up to see what was going on. And then- I don't remember that one, but wow. Do you not remember that one? Oh, geez. I've got pictures- Yeah, no of it, yeah. Uh, and when it- That might have been before my time here maybe. It may have been, yeah. Yeah. And before, uh, it would go away, and when it had had enough, then it would get 50 feet away from the boat, 20 feet away from the boat. Suddenly the fluke would come up and it would wave at you and then disappear. Yeah. They all have such interesting, um, like ways of interacting and different personalities. Uh, I remember distinctly a summer when Blodgett, who was the first sperm whale we ever saw here- Yeah didn't want anyone on his right side. Very, very nice about it, just like would kindly just turn and everything had to be on his left side. Now whether or not he had an injury on his right side and couldn't see, um, or you know, what, what exactly happened there, but that, that always was like a very strange, that was a very strange thing. Like, "Nope, nope. Over here, over here." Like, just- Yeah, yeah "I'm just gonna turn myself so you're on this side," right? Um, like super strange. And then that never happened again, right? But then you, you, you don't, you don't know whether it had come into contact with boats before. It's con- I know it sounds really weird, but it is conceivable that it'd never seen a boat before, a small one. You know, it probably, it probably knew enough to keep clear of big ones, but- Yeah a small boat, uh, and it... Don't we all have our comfort zones? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. You know? It's, it's... I guess it was a similar sort of thing. Mm-hmm. It just took him, uh, it just took him a couple of years to get used to the idea, and then he really couldn't care less which side you came. I think I had read too somewhere that this is the first generation of whales, and this book was probably written, you know, 20 plus years ago. So the first generation of whales that has, um, largely interacted with humans in a non-violent way, so with us, without us pursuing them to kill them. And when you think about that and about how knowledge gets passed down and about how many of the animals that, um, are alive today were probably alive during times when active commercial whaling was happening, you know, that kind of, um, it makes it different. You know, the amount of trust that is required to approach something that you've been taught is a danger, right? Is a, is a very different, it's a very different, um, experience for them, I guess, because of that, right? Yeah, I mean, uh, I, I think the experience that, uh, I've had with sperm whales being, being out there is that they really don't have the curiosity that some humpbacks have. Mm-hmm. And I don't know why that would be. You know, they are- In the main they, un- you know, until they, the males group up and the females group up, uh, it's a pretty solitary existence, isn't it, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think, you know, maybe they have all they need with the social interactions that they have already, right? Not that humpbacks I don't think are being, are seeking us out for social fulfillment or interactions. They, they are out, have a look, and then, you know, largely take off again, right? But, um It's very different, like, when you look at the solitary sociable belugas and things that we've had here, or historically in other places where you have solitary sociable whales that sort of, like, forget themselves and forget to do normal whale things because they come become obsessive, um, with what humans are doing. Um, I'm grateful that sperm ones don't do that like other toothed whales do, it seems. So that's a good thing. Um, but you know, it's, uh, it's, uh, interesting, uh, to see how they... how and when they interact or don't interact and, and what they, what they do, right? Well, one of, one of my big no-nos is I would never reach out and touch a whale if I could. Yeah. Um, that seems to me to transmit the wrong sort of message. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I... It, it just does not sit very well with me. I, I know people do it, and with gray whales they're encouraged to do it. Uh, but no, there's just something which is not quite right about that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. But that's a- And I think, too, there's a risk for them. I mean, they are not immune to the diseases that we carry, and we probably are not immune to the diseases that they carry. And so- Absolutely you know, you tend to not think about... People tend to not think about it in terms of that, right? But, um, you know, absolutely there, there's potential for transmission and something that could make them really sick that wouldn't make us sick, right? Sure. Um, so I think that's, that's really, really important too. Not to mention that largely when they're coming up beside boats, it's the blowhole that people are trying to touch, which is their respiratory tract, and would be very vulnerable to infection, right? So, um, you know, that's a potentially a big problem for animals. Well, who knows what we have on our bodies which would react adversely on theirs, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I... You know, I don't... It, it doesn't sit well with me. No. One thing about cataloging, I really must say we, we've been a bit remiss about not speaking about the pioneering work done at Memorial University in St. John's- Yeah, mm-hmm all those years ago, you know? Massive data set, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because w- without that, uh, without their work, um, I, I wonder what stage cataloging would be at now, or whether people would be that interested, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so sorry. I've been... This is, uh, an age thing. Uh, I remember the guys, uh, one of my heroes, John... The guy from, um, MUN. John Lynn. John Lynn, that's it. Uh, fantastic work Mm-hmm. Yeah. Really interesting guy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think they, um, I know Wayne and Julie had a lot of his data and pictures and things, and I think you had... Did you scan things of his before or they scanned them? No, he- How'd that work? He, um, I went to see him, uh, because, um, the story as I remember it was that, um, he rescued John's, uh, pictures, m- probably negatives- Mm-hmm and he had masses of them, but what, what Wayne Ledwell didn't have was the resources to go through and deal with it all. He, y- you know, some of his volunteers, I think, had done some of the work, but gee, he- Mm-hmm it, that was just something that you would need a team of people to go through and sort out. Mm-hmm. And, and I suppose the, the, the attitude would be now, "Well, you know, 70 years has passed," or whatever it is, um, "How many of these animals are still gonna be out there?" And no one knows. Nobody knows? Well, nobody- I think the earliest one on the catalog is '72, 1972. Yeah. So, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It's, um, it just, like most things, requires time and resources. Yes. And that's the most difficult thing. It is. It's a lot of work. And also the more people you get involved in the cataloging and looking at all these, um, negatives and images- Yes uh, one person might not see things that somebody else sees. Well, that's just it, right? It, it... What I suppose, uh, I've always thought would be the ideal i- is if you had something like, um, uh, the police fingerprint matching- Yeah so that you didn't have to go through these one at a time and look at them. You could just feed the picture in. I mean, Happy Whale has done that for matching, but it's still, the AI still needs human eyes on it, and I know Allied Whale- Sure still does human verification every time. Yeah. Um, and I, I think it's really, it's a, it's a great tool, but it's not infallible, right? And so it does have to be confirmed. I've had several matches this week with Antarctica in the Pacific that are not matches. Yeah. And, you know, so, or every once in a while I haven't cropped something and it'll match like to a headland. Like it'll try to match the headland to a tail. Yeah. And you're like, "No." Like it just crops it arbitrarily, you know? And so there's some things there that, you know, if you were just like blindly accepting that these were matches, I mean, you'd have all kinds of weird and wonderful things to write papers about, right? So, um, the AI is good, but it's not, you know, it still needs, it still needs to be- Well- checked and confirmed. What one per- You, you know, it, it is as you said earlier, um, and it was something I used to say years ago, it is like the psychiatrist ink blot test. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you will look at it and you'll see something. I will look at it and I'll see something totally different. Yeah. I mean, we have, uh, i- in the catalog as I remember, we have, um, apart from Bingo with the numbers on his, on his fluke- Mm-hmm there is another whale which has, when you look at the pattern, it looks exactly like an eagle's head to me. Yes. Yeah. And that's how, that's how I found was the easiest way, um, to remember the, um, the, the prints. The- Mm-hmm you look for something that looks like Well, I guess a household object or, or something that you've seen Something that you can identify. Yeah, for sure. Yeah something that you can identify. You may be the only person who sees that, but Yeah. But- Yeah that's, you know, that's the- You might forget how many whales in what exactly it is you're looking for and have to go back to the original picture. Yeah. That happens to me all the time. How old am I getting that I can't remember what I... Like 20... Because then you start noticing features of the whales that you're flipping through and you're like, "Wait a minute. What am I supposed to be looking at?" We have to go back through. And I mean, our catalog is, mm, over 1,600 now. I, I would say we're probably getting up to 1,700. So it's a lot of whales to flip through, you know? Sure. Um, it's a lot. And well, the other thing as well to say is that, uh, and I keep saying, "Oh, well, I'll get round to doing it." Um, I don't know whether I will. All those years in the early days when we didn't run a catalog- Mm-hmm um, and, um The quality of the pictures wasn't maybe so great on occasions. Yeah. Um, but I would say from, let me think, round about, mm, the late 1990s up until, or 2010 I suppose, uh, none of those pictures have gone to Happy Whale or to, uh, College of the Atlantic at Bar Harbor. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, simply because of the, the total volume. Yeah. You know, sometimes when it was, uh, when it was non-digital, did I write down the day that I'd taken those pictures? The date, yeah. No, I didn't. And they weren't always burned on the bottom like they were there for a little while, right? Yeah. Where you, like your camera did it, like have the- Yeah if you, if you remember to set the date right. We've run into that with our digital camera a couple of times. Yeah. My, my first- Yeah uh, few pictures on this holiday since, uh, Saturday, I forgot to change the time zone. Ugh. So foggy. So I've just had to do that. And sometimes you look at- You took a picture of a whale at 1:00 in the morning somehow. Yeah. The sun was still up. So weird. Would it be great if you could- Yeah. I mean, and most often they're things that you're like, "I did not photograph this whale in January. I did not." Yeah. "I know I didn't, so something has happened with the time signature on these." And you have to go back and manually change everything if you can remember or recall, you know, what day it was. But yeah, I mean, those are definitely- Well, if somebody, if somebody had the time and the funding to do it, it would be interesting to find out that there are minute features within the fluke print which are common to lots of animals. Mm-hmm. You know, it may be like a star shape or it may be a diamond or something. Ah. And you wonder whether this is sort of part of, um- Are they in some way connected? Yes. You know, like- Yeah it's difficult to believe that all of these prints are entirely random. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Who knows? That would be an interesting study, wouldn't it? Yeah. Not, not in my lifetime anyway, what's left of it. I know when you were talking about dorsal fins, I often feel like they're like noses. So like- if I showed my children pictures of people's, like, profile, would they be able to pick out my nose over someone else's nose? Yeah. And the answer's probably like, no. You know what I mean? Like, it, it's, it would be very difficult to do. And so, uh, you know, and that's probably not even valid. Somebody who knows will probably correct me. But I feel like, you know, it would be very, very difficult to do that. And you know, sadly, the animals that are easiest to identify by those features are ones that have scarring or have had things taken out, like a chunk taken out, or orca marks, or entanglement scars, or, or, or, um, that make it much simpler to, you know, say who's who, right? Yeah. Um, the same with our orcas. Someone sent me a video this morning and said, "Is there, you know, is there any data that you can take off of this video?" And it, it's really difficult because most of the video they're either at a distance or they're under the boat, so very difficult to pick out distinguishing features when they're under the water. And then, um, the one, like, ones that do come up close to the boat are females that don't really have any particularly distinguishing markings. So you know, obviously I will give it a go. I've only looked at it on my phone, so on a bigger screen, but it's not simple, you know. It's, it's not simple- Yeah to identify who's who in this group very often. And so humpbacks are easy because they're broadcasting their license plate all the time. Um, but you know, many of the other species, it's incredibly difficult. Well, I've s- I've said to people, um- If you, if you want to take pictures, say, of dolphins, you pick out one dolphin and you- Yeah stick with it all the time with your camera. Mm-hmm. Don't try to whiz from one to the other, 'cause the chances are you'll get a lot of sea and not, not much else. Or a lot of things that are very blurry, yeah. Yeah. They're so hard to photograph, you know? Yeah, I mean, well, I remember the, uh, Blodgett the sperm whale had a little sort of dent in the back of its dorsal, but I wouldn't identify it from that. I would identify it from the trailing edge where there was kind of a W- Yeah cut out of it. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that you could, you could tell from yards away. Yeah. And we haven't seen him for a long time. I wonder what happened to him, where he went, if he's still on the go or not, or, you know. Yeah, but don't, don't forget there were all those years when, um, we didn't really, uh, have... We, we had sperm whales on the website, but then I don't know how many people ever visited that. Um- but if you, you know, with all of the humpbacks being on Flickr- Mm-hmm uh, we don't or we only had a limited number of sperm whales on there. Mm-hmm. Um, and the chances of someone finding it out the blue are pretty slim. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So unless you've got someone who is specializing in that, you know- Mm-hmm your, your chances of identifying it are very slim. Yeah, it's true. There are fewer people. I mean, if it was- The females stay in the same area, right? So I mean, that's- Yeah that's a whole lot simpler. But the males are world travelers, and so it makes it much harder for sure. I think the accepted, um, or the probability of where they're coming from is probably in the Caribbean for ours, but- Yeah, absolutely anyone's guess, right? Yeah. Yeah. You, you would think it is, uh, it is a shortest journey because, I, I don't know whether I remember seeing it on a documentary or not, but it seemed to me that there were, there were West Atlantic sperm whales and there were East Atlantic sperm whales. Mm-hmm. The East Atlantic ones, uh, when, uh, all the females were usually round the Azores. Mm-hmm. The males would travel up past the UK, past Norway to- Mm-hmm heaven knows where. Mm-hmm. And, and I would guess that the west side is pretty much the same as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, who knows? Because we also thought that about humpbacks and now we're finding that that's not the case. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Right? So I mean, it's anyone's guess what's actually happening there, and they were hunted mercilessly. So I mean, it's possible that it's only been like that because the numbers were so small, and as they get, um, you know, stronger and, and the numbers get higher again, that things will start to happen like they did before, right? So whatever that was. We can't say what things were prevailing because we don't really know all of the... We don't have all the answers. Can't go back in time for that. Well, I watched a, I watched a documentary on, uh, humpback... Uh, sorry, sperm whales in the Southern Hemisphere, where they go down to Antarctica to feed and then they go up to, uh, the waters around India and meet- Mm-hmm up with the females. Mm-hmm. But they're there for a short time. They do what they have to do, and then they go back down again. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Back to the all you can eat buffet. And they are, they are... When they do this, they are in groups. It's not one person or one whale moving on its own. Mm-hmm. They're moving in groups north to south. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. You'll have to tell me where I can find that one. I'd love to see it. Oh, my. So any last words of wisdom, Reg, before we end off today? Anything you wanna tell people? I, I would say to anyone, if you've been on a Whale Watch trip and you've got a good picture taking up maybe a third as a minimum of the frame and it's clear, send it in. Mm-hmm. Because you never know. You can't be in all places at once. Yeah. The whale may only come up once. You may have the perfect picture, and nobody else on that boat may have it. And what are you gonna do with it? You'll take it home. You'll, you might put it on your computer or your laptop, uh, or your iPad or whatever- Mm-hmm and then never look at it again until you reach the point and go, "Oh, we don't need those old holiday pictures." Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And of course someone, I d- I really don't remember who it was, um, it was someone from, someone senior from the Microsoft organization who said, "Look, folks, don't just ditch your pictures and rely on a digital image because systems change all the time." Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you just never know. Yeah. I mean, all the p- all, all the stuff that I took, uh, video I took years ago, th- almost 30 years ago, um, is in the wrong format. Ugh. So then you'd have to pay someone or buy some kind of converting program and change it up again. I got, I got, at the time I got a, a conversion program to do it. Mm-hmm. I also have to say, um, I do make the occasional big boo-boo. Like we, uh, l- last year or the year before, we were up at Niagara. I was filming away up to the falls and back again. Um, and when I got home, I'd had the GoPro upside down Totally something I would do There is- Yeah apparently someone, uh, has got a program to correct that. Flip it around, yeah Otherwise, you just have to stand on your head or turn your PC upside down. Turn your screen upside down. These things happen. I mean, I recently saw a thread in a whale watching, uh, Facebook group that was looking for an ID picture, and the person said, "I think I've found the picture, but it's been reversed." And so going back to the days when people were scanning negatives and slides, that was easily done to put something on the scanner- Easily done, yeah right? And so it's, e- especially with the older pictures and older whales, um, that's not inconceivable. So I mean, that kind of stuff happened all the time, which may make it so that matches couldn't be made because, you know, you're not sure. But if tails have particularly distinguishing features and you're like, "Wait a minute, I wonder if..." You know? Um, but that's, that's something that, you know, has certainly been done over the years, and we've, I mean, certainly experienced that before too, so yeah, yeah. Yeah, and if you've got some- These things happen if you've got something without a major distinguishing feature on it, then boy, that is difficult to pick out. Yeah. Yeah. That's really difficult So then there's, I mean, probably a match wouldn't be made. So I mean, very few people are scanning those kinds of things anymore, but I mean, an easy ma- it's an easy mistake to make, right? Really easy. Yeah. Yeah. So- And as far as we know, uh, none of the humpbacks have a totally blemish-free black tail or a blemish-free white tail. There's always some- There's always something. Yeah, exactly there's always something wrong there. Some weird bump on the trailing edge or something. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Something that you can use. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to, I wanted to thank you for really getting us set up. I know for many years on the boat I talked about setting up a catalog, and I was a student, and I was busy studying and, you know, working and didn't really have, uh, the time or the wherewithal to do it myself. And I, I so appreciate the hundreds and thousands of hours that you put in to really building this catalog and, and setting us up with, like, the procedures and the policies that we even use now, um, to make sure that that can continue, um, for many, many years to come. So your- Well, I- you know, your- Yeah. I mean, I can't say enough about the devotion that you bring to this I really, you know, I really, I really enjoyed it, and it was something that, um, it, it has to be said it was mostly winter times at home. We, you know, we don't get masses of snow, but we do get buckets of rain. Yeah. And on a rainy day was the perfect time to go through it. And, you know, I, as I said before, the very first time I went out and saw a whale, ha- hooked me for life. So- Yeah it was a pleasure. And then I started to pick out the features. Mm-hmm. But it just, it just reached a point where one person can't do it, you know? Yeah. Uh, and I ha- well, I can't say I retired, 'cause I didn't, I just resigned from my job. In the late 50s. Mm-hmm. Um, I had a look at my finan- financials and thought, "Oh, geez, I don't need this every day, do I?" And then I decided, yeah, I could, I could manage it. Not to worry. I was g- I could take my pension early. Ah, what the hell? That's what I'm gonna do. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you were looking for, you know, a retirement project, right? And so I think this kind of all- Yeah, absolutely. Yeah came into fruition at the same time. It was perfect timing for everybody involved, that's for sure. Yeah. So thank you for retiring early. And of course, things have, you know, things have changed really, uh, from, uh, what was put on, um, the website to changing that- Mm-hmm and putting it onto Flickr where- Mm-hmm There is just more work and, and you make mistakes, don't you? You do. I mean, some, some of them have double numbers or whatever. I mean, it happens and you, you fix it as you go, and when you notice these things and it, it's going to happen. I mean, it's not... We're not perfect, we're humans, and it's a massive data set and nobody is, like, perfectly straight on with the tail completely broadcasted in- Yeah perfect light and all those kinds of things. I mean, it's hardly ever happens, so. Well, sometimes you get them sort of slightly sideways on, don't you? Which- Yeah which tends to make everything different. Uh, the, the other thing- You do the best you can I suppose in conclusion, someone else we should mention, uh, is, uh, Roger down in St. Pierre- Yeah. Yeah who, uh, was a master matcher. Yeah. And certainly- Photographic memory. Yeah corrected my mistakes on a number of occasions. Mm-hmm. And mine too. So, you know, I think, I think cataloging owes, uh, owes a lot to him as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he really... Yeah. He knew his stuff, that's for sure. Yeah. I know he was doing a lot of matching with Andrew in Bermuda. Um, and so he will be, he will be really missed, for sure. Yeah. Well, I d- I don't know whether anyone, uh, took it over. Uh, and, and I guess with, with private individuals, that is the problem. Mm-hmm. That once they're gone, who's gonna deal with it? Yeah. That's- Will it just get forgotten about? Will the family just say, "Oh, look, we've gotta get rid of all of this stuff"- Yeah and it will disappear, you know? Yeah. I think there is some work being done to get his, like, the data from St. Pierre, um, uploaded and saved and made sure that it's... Yeah. So I think there are people taking care of that, as far as I can tell. But, you know, he was certainly a wonderful resource for North Atlantic humpback whales, and had even in, in recent months shown interest in, like, the sperm whales. So I mean, wow. I- if I had gotten him on that with, with his eye, you know, would he have been able to really help with that too? So, um, yeah. He will be, he will be missed. He will be missed for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I really appreciate you joining me today. I know you're on holiday. Yeah, it's a pleasure. Um, but, uh, yeah, I really appreciate you taking out the time. Shauna, you... That, that's a g- you're being a bit crafty here, 'cause it's pouring with rain outside. You're like, "We're not missing anything. Let's be honest." Yeah. What else have I got to do? I can sit and read a book- Yeah, exactly and that's about it. Well, I- But no, it's a pleasure as always. Awesome. I- I'm, uh, grateful that we were able to make this happen today, so thanks so much. That's okay. Pleasure.