How Faith Could Shape the Future of Virginia

In this powerful discussion, Rev. Bill Cook and Pastor Josh Baird explore the vital connection between faith and politics, especially as Virginia’s elections approach. They tackle pressing moral issues such as abortion and marriage amendments, urging pastors and believers alike to approach them from a biblical worldview. The conversation dives deep into the Johnson Amendment, the challenges pastors face in addressing political matters, and the responsibility of church leaders to guide their congregations toward informed, faith-based civic engagement.

Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
01:56 The Importance of Election Sermons
06:06 Moral Issues vs. Political Issues
10:09 Allegiance and Nationalism in Christianity
15:28 Engaging in Civic Duty: The Importance of Voting
20:02 Challenges Faced by Pastors in Addressing Politics
29:25 The Impact of the Johnson Amendment
36:54 The Role of Pastors in Addressing Temporal Needs
46:36 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Well, welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the podcast of America's Black Rub Regiment. We're glad you're with us today. We're very excited to have a special guest with us, Pastor Josh Baer, who happens to be my pastor. And he also pastors a number of my family members, my children, two of my three of my oldest children, and also many of their sons and daughters. So we have a large contingent at the love, uh he's pastor of the Ludge Love Church, Lead Church, uh past lead pastor of the Love Church. So Josh, we're real excited to have you today. Very honored to be here. Yeah, good great. Love Church is in Gainesville, Virginia, suburb of DC. It's a great church. If you're looking for a church, go visit Love Church. Just check it out. And uh I'm just gonna I'm just gonna give you Josh's bio. Josh is a visionary, visionary leader and a passionate teacher, I can tell you that. He loves to see people grow in their relationship with Jesus Christ and fulfill their God-given potential. That passion permeates his pastoring, coaching, and parenting. Josh and Brittany have been married for not since 2009. They have four remarkable children, one daughter, Rayleigh, and three sons, Roman, Judah, and Israel. Great biblical names. We're not a church, you can find them either playing sports or cheering their favorite teams on. So thanks. Thanks, Josh. Um and I have the honor of Josh being my pastor. So for a number of years. Um last October, Josh did a series on a five-week series on elections and voting. And so we're glad he's here to talk about that. We think this is such an incredibly important topic right now in the church. Voting in elections are critical in particularly in Virginia, because there's a lot at stake in this election. So uh I asked him to come on and share some of the key points of that sermon series. And Josh, why is it important? I just ask you, Josh, to begin. Why is it important? Why are election sermons important?

SPEAKER_04 2:09

Yeah, I think um, you know, for so many years, I'll just start with kind of the background of it. You know, my dad was a a pastor and a great one, and I think um in the evangelical attractional church, um there was uh a whole generation, or maybe a couple generations, of, of pastors that had kind of uh for the sake of not alienating people, um stopped preaching about political things, um, kind of shied away from them. And that's kind of how I grew up was you you don't want to bring politics in church. And I actually listened to the last episode here, and I think it was very well uh covered. Um, but that's just like that was my background was we don't want to alienate people. And so, but as time goes on and as politics have gotten a lot more moral, you know, we're not now we're not talking about taxes, we're talking about you know, gender identity and and abortion and all of that. Um it you I I think it puts you in a really big predicament as a pastor to have to really look at yourself in the mirror and say, well, if we start avoiding things that people are calling political, then now we're actually finding ourselves avoiding very very biblical things, and we're uh and we're and we're not actually able to pastor our congregations. And so um it's funny because the reason that I ended up preaching, I preached a series, I called it when church and state collide, kind of as a play on words, uh play on words, kind of you know, talking about the opposite of separation of church and state. It's like, well, when when how about when church and state collide? Um, and and so we we did a four-week series on it, but the whole reason was because I was finding myself as the pastor of our congregation feeling convicted that if I don't if I don't talk about these things, I'm not even a good pastor. Um, because this is what's on everybody's mind. Um, these are very moral biblical issues. Uh, and so if we let the world um kind of have a monopoly on the issues, then we're just gonna get taken to the cleaners as Christians, and that's not even talking about as American citizens, obviously, if you care about our nation as Americans, um we need to be preaching on it as well. But for me, it's like it was first and foremost kingdom. It was like, we have to talk about these things. Everybody's everybody's talking about them, everybody's debating them. And so if you're a if you're a Christian who claims to be a Democrat, therefore, because of your politics, believe that um it's okay to abort a baby, and then you tell me as your pastor, I can't talk about it, then I've I've ceased to become your pastor. So let's talk about what the Bible says about these things. And so that was kind of the approach was let's talk about these things that are actually very biblical, um, that are are now also political, and um, and talk about what the Bible says about them. And so it was kind of like we're coming at this from a biblical angle, and then it's gonna end up getting political, and so be it if it does. And um, so anyway, that's a little bit of the backstory of why of why we did it. And I'll just kind of stop. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

I'll stop there. We lost you. We lost you a little bit. Lost your camera for a second.

SPEAKER_04 5:23

Yeah, um, we already heard everything you said. Okay, well, I'll I'll pause there. I can go further and and talk about some of the content, but that's that's kind of the approach that we that we took with it.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

Good.

SPEAKER_04 5:34

I'm really a little bit of my history. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Good. Pretty cool. Yeah, I came up in the same era, Josh, you know, where political preaching was anathema and the whole idea of separation of church and state was was held to the fore, and we couldn't talk about politics, but then I started having children. And that changes your whole outlook on everything. When you start having kids and you realize they're gonna they're gonna grow up in the world you leave behind, you start feeling some responsibility for for the welfare of the state and the condition of the situation your kids will grow up in. So it's it became very important to me. And I became passionate about as you as you know. Um so um I want to ask you this. You know that you know that we have two a critical election for the top three positions in the state this year, right? Governor, lieutenant governor, and attorney general. Now, research shows that forty percent of Christians don't vote, evangelicals don't vote. And uh Virginia will soon pass an abortion amendment. Basically making it illegal to have an abortion up until the moment of birth. The whole you know, uh nine mu nine months. And it's already been passed in ten states, so you know that there's there there's inertia to have it passed in other states. And so you know, we feel it's imperative that the church address this because it's not a political issue, like you said, it's a moral issue. Abortion is fundamentally a moral issue. And uh it doesn't become political when we start talking talking about it. Also, I guess you know if you heard about the marriage amendment that's it's spending in Virginia it's a pro.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

It would help me if you told me the details of it. Sure. Um before we talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

I'm gonna I think I'm gonna read you what what the what the marriage amendment does. I've got it here on a sheet of paper from the Family Foundation. It embeds it embeds gender ideology. Sex and gender distinction embeds gender ideology in the Constitution, pressuring schools, businesses, and government to adopt policies that conflict with biological reality. It also permits males and female sports by inserting gender ideology in the constitution. The amendment threatens women's rights in sports locker rooms and shelters, allowing biology biological men in women's places and raising safety and privacy concerns. It also threatens pastors, has a serious prohibition on pastors by saying, I'm not gonna do uh a wedding for same-sex for a same-sex couple, if you want to call them that. You know. It's it's dangerous in that sense. It it uh has no conscious or religious exemption for pastors. And uh, you know, you know you know, it's probably gonna end up being in the courts and litigated whatever whatever happens. But uh the proposed amendment also reduces marriage to a source of personal happiness and eliminates language that that emphasizes the benefits and obligations of marriage that are important to children, family, building, and stable communities. So it basically is redefining humanity in the legislature. Now, you you and I know that that's not possible. You can't actually do that. You can s you can say something is legal, if it's a law, you pass an amendment, whatever. But it really doesn't matter. If it's not biblical, it's not if it's not true according to God's law, then it's just not true. But there's gonna be huge battles following that. So it becomes this election becomes critical, and that's why it's important to preach on this election and to encourage Christians to get out and vote, vote their values, vote what they believe, vote their convictions. Because um uh as I've said before, um political sermons really were the seedbed of what made America. They were prevalent in America, they were preached for over 200 years in this country, political sermons, all kinds of sermons on politics. Pastors were some of the most knowledgeable knowledgeable people when it came to to matters of government. They talked about government all the time. And uh they're the ones that what I've what I've been saying is that um the pastors preached the political worldview, the fashion of this country. They really did. Uh even the words even the words in the Declaration of Independence can be traced to specific sermons during the er eras preceding the uh revolution, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

I I do have another question for you.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

What are your thoughts on these on the amendments and how will they impact the church if they if these things pass? Do you have any thoughts on that? The amendments I just talked about.

SPEAKER_04 10:21

Yeah, um, I think well that shows the importance of it. Uh, let me back up. I'm gonna answer your question and don't let me forget to answer your question. Um but one one of the things that I've I was teaching our church recently, you you might have been there, um, Bill, but is I was talking about the difference between um absolute allegiance and then a s and then sub-allegiance, and how we have absolute allegiance to the kingdom. But then we have sub we have other allegiances and loyalties. For example, if you're married, you have an allegiance to your spouse, you have loyalty to your spouse. That doesn't mean you don't have loyalty to God. And this is where you this is where the Christian nationalism um kind of like topic comes from. Oh a lot of the left will accuse Christians who love America, who preach political things as Christian nationalists, which it I think is a very positive term, but they will give it a negative connotation and uh and then it gets really sticky because then that can get coupled with white supremacy and all kinds of stuff. And I think that's just part of the tactic to get us to stop talking about it. But um, but the the but the true way to understand how to live out as a Christian, our nationalism, is to understand order of allegiance. Is I have an allegiance to God first and foremost in his kingdom. That's I mean, that's why you can you can ban Christianity, you can ban prayer, you can ban the Bible. I'm still gonna read it, I'm still gonna pray, I'm still, you know, so and we know that as Christians, and that's what makes us that's what saves uh uh guards us from not worshiping a place or from not worshiping a government or not worshiping anything and letting it become an idol is we're gonna worship God first and foremost, no matter what. But when you read scripture, we are not only allowed but commanded to have other allegiances as long as they're in order. And so you're gonna have an allegiance to your spouse, you're gonna have allegiance to your children, you're gonna have allegiance to your nation, to your community. And so um I've in that's something that I've come to understand that's really helped me to kind of see where do politics fit in my Christianity. It's and so and and allowing ourselves to engage with passion, understanding the history of America, understanding the importance of it, to engage and know that no, I'm not some person who's worshiping America. I'm not what you accuse me of. I don't worship America, I worship God. But I think all of us as Christians, if you're a Christian, it's because you believe that God is God, that God is good, that God's word is true. And if you believe that, then of course you're gonna want that to flow into every other area of your life, every other allegiance of your life, if you will. So I don't worship my wife, Brittany. I worship Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and I want Jesus Christ to permeate my marriage, for example. And so we're gonna build our marriage around Christ because we care, because we worship Christ and we care about our marriage. So if you just take that simple line of thinking, and this is this is helpful for me. I think it's been helpful for young people. It's helpful for Christian conservatives who might be intimidated by the the left who tries to silence us with things like Christian nationalism, and you shouldn't talk about that, you shouldn't worship America. It's helpful to use those analogies to now say, okay, I love Jesus, I worship Jesus. And I have other allegiances. For example, I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. I'm a I'm an American citizen, I love my nation. And so therefore, I want my Christianity and my Christian worldview to spill over into my nation. That's going to make us a better nation, you know, because God knows what he's doing. And so I think that I wanted to back up and say that's the framework in which we would approach all of this. Um, and so now to answer your question, obviously these have massive effect on culture. Well, we're not scared that culture is going to change. As Christians, we shouldn't be scared, and as pastors, we we should be teaching our people not to be scared that if America goes downhill, we're gonna lose our faith. No, we have the attitude that says no matter what happens to America, we're we're our faith is in Christ, and and we'll worship whether we're under an administration like this one that's uh that's pro-worshiping God and freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and we'll worship if if all hell broke loose and and it's illegal, we'll worship no matter what. But what sane, logical, God-fearing, normal human being wants it to go downhill. We love our nation, we love our land. The Bible talks about to pray for the welfare of our land. So that being the case, we're going to, in with proper allegiance, we're going to preach biblical worldview, we're going to tell people to get out and vote. It's your civic duty. And actually, depending on how you interpret portions of Romans, it's it's a biblical command because it's because we are because in this republic, we're we have a responsibility to do it. And so if we want to hold up the and honor the government of our land, part of that is voting. Would you you would agree with that, Bill? Um, so so uh, you know, and I understand some Christians they they they find themselves, I don't agree with it, but I understand how they can find themselves at a place where they're like, well, I'm just not gonna vote because I don't agree with either side. We could go down, we could talk about that if we want to. I could go down the path of describing why that's bad thinking, I think. Um but we engage because we want our land to reflect the values of God, not because we worship it, because but because we care about it. And um, and so therefore, I think it's important to teach that. It's important to remind our people to vote, to engage. And if if we're teaching as pastors, if we're teaching the whole council of the word of God, um, it's pretty obvious. Um, you know, like nobody in our church is wondering who I vote for, for example. But I'm not up there. Bill can say that Bill probably sometimes wishes I'd be a little bit more overt about it, but he it's nobody's wondering what I think. Nobody's wondering uh who I vote for, even. Um, but I'm not up there preaching that one political party is the kingdom of God. Um, but there's certainly one political party right now that lines up with the word of God more than the other one. That's not that's um that's a very obvious. So those are some of my thoughts. Uh uh as far as our us particularly as a church, the way that we've written our bylaws, and that's not the point of this podcast today, but we're kind of protected from it no matter what, um, because we've we've kind of positioned our church um in in the sense that we're we're only doing weddings for members of our church, and um and so we're we're protected in other ways personally uh for our church, but it's very important, big implications.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Well, hey guys, real quick, as a as a um mother, grandmother, businesswoman, you know, woman of faith. Our what's exciting to me, I think right now we have a great deal of hope because we see young people for the first time. I just saw the stats the other day, for the first time that are turning to the turning to Jesus, I mean, and turning to faith. That is super exciting. Now we have a big job, and the secondary part of that is to educate them on really how to take a stand because we have uh a whole category of people out there that are attempting to make it as though if we speak our mind, we are going against um, you know, their freedom of speech, so to speak. And that's not even true. Um, but the other thing that I really wanted to share was give a shout-out for our podcast sponsor, which is Cardi Miracle, Mr. John Hewlett. And every time I hear somebody speak about America, faith, um, overall health, you know, he is such a massive patriot. And I've said for years we can't fight with a sick body, right? And so, you know, I'm a PK kid. I grew up with donuts and coffee. I mean, that's that's kind of how we were. But it's a new day. And if we don't take care of our body and our brain, you also mentioned choices people are making. I think truly, the brain of an individual, our brain waves, our inability and ability to think clearly or not so clearly is dependent upon how much we expose ourselves, not only to the negative foods, but also the negative um speech and energies of other people. So we have to be very cognitive of that. One thing with the, you know, to give a shout out to the sponsor, Hardy Miracle, we had just did a study not so long ago on an article that was on PTSD. So we know that many people today, it doesn't matter if it was if you were present during the, you know, you watched the Carly Charlie Kirk assassination. That's PTSD. Those are things that affect us to the core. So there's many reasons why people would have PTSD, but clearing up the brain, getting the brain in a place that we are thinking clearly, that we're making good cognitive thoughts, and that we're not filling it up with, you know, garbage, chemicals, and toxins. So Cardi America is truly a game changer when it comes to us maintaining our health and maintaining the ability for us to think clearly. And uh I love the fact that John Healett put so much into it, such as he's doing like this podcast. So thank you guys so much. And I love the hat. Love it. It's all about love out there. And that's it can be really Jesus', you know, hands and feet.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Yeah. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Josh, another question. Uh, what do you think are some of the reasons pastors do not address uh address voting of politics in the preaching? Do you think they're just trapped in the whole previous history of, you know, don't talk about politics, culture in the church?

SPEAKER_04 20:14

I think in my personal this is my opinion, obviously, which I guess is what you're asking for. I I don't in my experience and the people that I know that don't, because I have plenty of people, plenty of close friends that don't. They they they think the way that I think about things, they have the same world view, and they they decide not to. Um because and so I'll tell you why. I in my experience, some of the reasons I think that um because of the history, the same way that we were talking about at the beginning, how we've come up, um they have you know, obviously, I'm talking in broad strokes right now, so I'm I'm not talking about any one particular person, but these are patterns that I've seen over the years have preached that their churches into a place where there are people in their pews, people in their seats, that they know that the minute they were to change course and start drawing harder lines in the things that they talk about, they're gonna lose them because they've because they set the precedent that they're not going to. And so now they almost like they're in too deep now uh of this of this methodology. And so I just think for some of them, it's a it's a really bad way to put it, but for lack of a better way to put it, is a business decision. It's like they're not not preaching the word, but they're kind of hedging a little bit and and what they're going to talk about for the sake of not losing. And and I'm empathetic towards that. Like I feel bad for some of the people that I've seen get themselves in that position. I don't agree with it. I I don't take that approach, but I understand it. And I think if somebody's watching and they've gotten to that point, you just have to make a decision of what's most important. Uh and honestly, I will say this a lot of people who are a lot of pastors who are in that position that I know don't like it. They wish they weren't. If they could rewind, they'd do it differently, but they're not ready. To handle the fallout of what would happen if they did. And so my advice would be like you, you know, you you have to decide what type of church that you want and um and and preach into that. You're gonna you're gonna preach into the type of church that you want. And if you want to tiptoe around things for the rest of your ministry uh and try to cater, then that you're gonna have a church that reflects that, where you have, you know, and and some people celebrate that. We have a diversity of opinion about things and and so be it if that's the type of church church that you want. But I think um setting the so I think that's one reason is they're too far in. I think secondly, they don't they don't want to offend. Uh and we all we all struggle with this, but uh, I think it's that they don't want to offend because of um like almost like a people pleasing. Like if I I know how it feels. You get emails, you get you get somebody in the lobby saying they want to meet with you, or you get an email saying they want to meet with you, and and you and your heart rate goes up and you feel intimidated, like what did I do wrong, and you feel you know, like stressed out, and and then and then and then if you're insecure, you start to get worried that people aren't gonna like you, and how many more people are they gonna leave, or the are more people gonna leave. And again, I'm saying all of this as with empathy toward you with to people who to pastors who feel that and out of their insecurity don't want to don't want to rock the boat. And I would just say this, you're rocking the boat. It's just a matter of which boat are you gonna rock or how are you gonna rock it. Like you are there's other people that are leaving that are wishing that you'd just be clear, you know, and they might not be as loud. Um, so you just have to decide what kind of church that you want. And um, and I think for me, I'm for certainly haven't been perfect. We've had personal conversations before about things that I'd do different if I could rewind six years or whatever, but I but I I can say with full with with um full conviction that um that I have decided that that we want to be a church that's going to stand on the truth of God's word. And I still don't even think anybody would think we're political by any stretch. I don't think anybody would say, well, the church is political. Um but but we're so strong on the word and we're so unafraid to preach the word to current events. So like when the Charlie Kirk assassination happened, I can't believe this is the case, but it is, so be it, that pastors were talking about like, are you gonna say something? Are you gonna talk about it? Um, because if you talk about it, then you're gonna be lumped in with the people who are saying, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Okay, that's a question I have, guys. Is that was that really happening? I mean, I was hearing that, and then I can't imagine a pastor not speaking about this. So those were actually real conversations. That to me is it's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_04 24:45

Maybe I can I can maybe shed some light that'll give you more understanding. Um and I agree that it's unbelievable. But number one, yes, Lisa, it really was happening. Number two, here's why. Because it's because of the tribalism that has come. And and I yeah, I can't I can't say this is all the left. I think it's probably some of the right side of the aisle has has uh blame for this. But the tribalism is that if you say something, it's gonna virtue signal something and it's going to lump you into something. And so, you know, so if I if I talk about Charlie Kirk, then I'm lumped in with I'm lumped in with this group, which also believes this, which also believes this, and now you're this. And so if I could just talk candidly, it's like, well, if you're if you say Charlie Kirk's name or you you talk about him with any sort of sympathy, then you're then you're lumped in as a Christian nationalist, you're lumped in as a white supremacist, you're lumped in as now a racist, you're you know, you're a far right wing evangelical. Um and and so then you and and then guys get scared that they're gonna, and so then they don't say something very obvious like, hey, this is a tragedy. The man got killed for his faith. I mean, he didn't get killed for politics, it's really he's got killed for his faith. And so those conversations were happening, yes. Um and and I think that the the the the decision became are we willing to be lumped in with that or not for a lot of for a lot of pastors. Now let me give you a little bit more, uh a little bit of an example to give you some understanding. Here's why, and it's because there's people like this. I I had a few different conversations, but one of the conversations that I had is was around the time with someone. I had a conversation with someone after I talked about it. This is a person of color that has a lot of family and friends support system that are are Democrats, and they believed something about Charlie Kirk based off of clips that they had seen that he didn't even necessarily think was true, but they believed that. Well, then when I, as this person's pastor, am talking and saying these things, he knows my character, he knows my heart, he knows our church's beliefs and all of that. But here's what's happening, and this is what'll give you some understanding. His whole family now and friends are saying, Oh, you go to that church with that pastor who's saying that. And then for him as a for him as a person of color, he's going, now I haven't the people closest to me in my family world and my and my friends that I've grown up with that are alienating me yet, and our church is pretty diverse, but still predominantly white church, yet the the place that I go, most of the people that don't look like me actually believe the things that I actually believe, and I feel lost as a person. And so there's a loneliness there, and there's a there's like a I don't feel like I have my people, my tribe, and and this person that I'm talking about is it's fine that I was able to pastor them through this. But you have lots of those situations happening, especially in churches in our area. We're in northern Virginia, and in our area, you have people like that sitting in the in the seats, and and they're it's just it's complex. And so you've got people on the other end, like just yeah, I've got friends who are conservative pastors, and their whole entire church is conservative, and they're just like they can say anything that they want, and they get no pushback. Um and I just so I have understanding for people for pastors who um they're calculating the blowback, if that makes sense, Lisa. When you're saying, like, is that really a thing? I can't even believe that they're kind. It's not that they don't believe it, and it's not even that they're totally just cowards. Um, and again, to speak into the tribal thing, there was even people on the on the right saying, if you don't speak, you're a coward. And I'm like, I don't like I kind of believe that, and I spoke about it, but I don't know if for for some guys I know that that didn't say it very strongly, they're not cowards. They they've spoken pretty strongly about things, but they're they're they see the complexities of this. And so um I'm not excusing it or anything like that. I I hope you hear what I'm saying, but I am saying that's kind of like an inside look on some of the things that I saw, and even within our own church, a conversation that I had with someone who's really struggling, but believes everything that we believe, but is struggling with the implications of the tribalistic culture that we're in.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Well, you do I want to say that you did a masterful job addressing the situation with Charlie Kirk after it happened. I thought your sermon the the week after was was incredible, impeccable. And I I came up and told you that at the end of it. I thought it was one of the best sermons I've heard you give since I've been at the church. And uh, you know, you know, you it was very clear how you felt about what happened. So quick question. Um, how much of an impact do you think the Johnson amendment has had on anything, Josh? In light of the IRS's recent uh administrative decision to basically declare it unconstitutional. Um is that a is that a relief? Do you think to pa other pastors who are maybe holding back because they they think that political preaching will get them in trouble?

SPEAKER_04 30:03

I think it's more this is again my opinion. I think it's more of the what we were talking about earlier than it is that specifically. I I think like if if uh I think a lot of people have this, I don't think many pastors are thinking about the tax side of it and and and violating that. I I do think it's a relief and it's nice to have the administration's support in that case. That's r awesome. I've always had the view of like, well, we'll just pay taxes then. We'll just we'll just pay taxes and uh and keep preaching the gospel. So God will take care of us. But I think um I I haven't really heard that from at least my generation of pastors is like, oh, I don't know if we're gonna get you know slapped by so good.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

Uh you said you watched a video before you came that we had on our, I guess on our Zoom page or something.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Yeah, I think it was last week's.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Was it Dan Fisher? Yes, it was Pastor Dan Fisher. He really s shared some incredible stuff on that about about the Johnson Amendment on that on that show. It was really incredible. Um Alexander De Tocqueville, he's the wrote the Democracy in America. French diplomat and political philosopher said that religion gave birth to America. And he was he was really was right. Um that the self-evident truths written into the Declaration of Independence by Thomas Jefferson can be traced to puppets and pens of Puritans like John Wise, the first minister of what's called Chewbacco Parish. Sounds like Chew Tobacco, but how would you like to have a church named Chewbacco Parish?

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

It it sermon was one 100 years post-independence on July 9, 1876, during the first centennial celebration, the first 100 years, Reverends George Spaulding preached a sermon on the Dover, New Hampshire pulpit, where he said, uh, the principles of our civil liberty and of our national independence, which 40 million, at the time of the population of the U.S. of 40 million people, 40 million of people in these days were celebrating, did not find their first utterance in the Great Declaration, speaking of the Declaration of Independence. They didn't spring to life in the debates of the provincial Congress. They did not originate in the elaborate elaborate papers of Adams and Jefferson. They did not spring to leap forth their first light in the impassioned eloquence of James Otis or vehement appeal of Patrick Henry. They had their birth in the election sermons, the fast and thanksgiving discourses of the Congregational Ministers of New England. Pastors figured so prominently in the founding of the nation and the founding of our government. And uh it's one of the things I love talking about. In fact, if if you love I I I go to churches and I try to educate them about the history of the pulpit, and they're and they it gets them kind of fired up.

unknown 32:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Yeah. Totally. Anyway, so absolutely. No, you've you've had an impact on me, Reverend Bill.

SPEAKER_04 33:02

That's been we we've talked a lot about it over the years, and part of my journey, um, there have been multiple voices that have kind of helped, I think, educate me and cle encourage me, help me find my own voice and putting on what in my ministry, you know, I've been the lead pastor of the church for six years. And that's been I was kind of my wife and I started leading the church and COVID hit, you know, and that was 2020 and and George Floyd and all that. And I think um, so we were we were just still beginning to lead the church at that time. And so anyway, but over these last few years, um, you've been you said you're passionate about it. I've always known that. We've known each other a long time, and um, and it's helped me. So thank you. Good. It's good to hear. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

One of the things that we need to do is to give a briefing sometime to the congregation on the history of the pulpit in America. I'd love to do that.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

Yeah. They might I wouldn't want to get you into trouble. Anyway. I don't really care about that. Good. Last thing, uh the number one concern for Christians in the last election was inflation. When inflation was only 2.7% historically low for for the for an an inflation index. And uh sadly, abortion was listed number seven. It seems like the uh the church's uh demeanor on abortion has cooled off, where there's not as much fire to end that that scourge on our land. And uh while inflation would certainly impact the daily lives of Christians, not more than abortion. Abortion's probably had one of the most deleterious effects on our culture of any any uh sin, any crime against nature in existence. And so in terms of God's e in God's economy, I believe is the most important issue uh to him above all else, you know the shedding of innocent blood. God God places a premium on you read through scripture, there's a huge premium placed on innocent blood. Cries to God from the ground. One of the things I've been saying as I've spoken around the country is that the fruit of the plain, the fruit of the plain in America is drenched with innocent blood from sea to shining sea. And it's crying out to God from the ground. You know, God is gonna uh at some point there's gonna become a reckoning for that in this nation. So it's really imperative that the church, I believe, step up and take that issue on head on. We knew it's it will be different than a lot of places, but I believe God God will honor that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

So 100%. Comment on that. Yeah, I think well, when you talk about innocent blood, that's a great point.

SPEAKER_04 35:45

Bible places a premium on it, innocent 100% innocent blood is what forgives us of sin. Um that's only only one person that's Jesus, but uh there is throughout scripture that pattern. And I think um I always come back to you know, as a preacher and a communicator and a pastor, I think having a solid framework that you approach things with, not just randomly approaching them, but based off of what's going on in the day, but a solid mental model, mental framework to approach these topics so that the waves of culture don't affect your approach is is important to me as a communicator. And so the way that I continually approach this uh topic of abortion is is Imago Day, is the the value that God places on on life. And then the great part about that is that'll continue preaching after the child's born. Then you continue talking about Imago Day. That's what's gonna keep you uh in in a culture where we value human life so that we're not elevating one race over another. That's gonna value human life in where you're not castrating children, um, where you're not trying to change gender. All of it can come back to we were created by God, but in the image of God, yes. And and so I think that is where it all starts. And so you can't have you can't talk about Imago Day and valuing human life if you end human life before it's even born. It's the it's a the very it's the very most core fundamental um issue is is ending the life. And then if we can get to the point of not ending the life, now we can talk about the rest of becoming disciples. I loved Dr. Rowan Warren, um, Dr. Rollin Warren is how you pronounce it, who said it's it's heartbeats that are heaven-bound. He was saying, once that life is conceived, that's an eternal soul. And so the first our first job is to keep the heart beating. And there's a lot of hearts that have been that have um unfortunately they're they've stopped beating in the womb. And um, and so that's where we start. And so I think it's an issue worth continuing to um teach on, preach on, educate on, fight for, pray for, and um, and we try to do that as much as we can. There's always more that we can do, obviously. Um, but I think that's the that's the angle that I come at it with is like this is the this is the first issue is um is allowing these babies to be born. I was just talking to someone that was talking about the the statistics on where all of the the arguments for pro-choice, um pro-choice and quotation marks kind of fall apart where less than one percent of abortions are actually because of those medical reasons. And I know we've talked about this before, um, but they they we were just looking at some studies together because I'm I'm preparing some of my uh messages for next year. We always take time towards the beginning of the year and preach on it, and um, and that was just a staggering statistic that it's less than one percent. But that's the issue. You don't build any policy around less than one percent of a scenario, you know, like you yeah, and over over 99% of abortions have nothing to do with healthcare, which is the the main propaganda, the main push for pushing the pro-choice agenda. Um and so that's just it's a devastating number. It's a sobering number, uh, that 99% are for other reasons.

SPEAKER_02 39:13

Well, if if I you know, I shudder to think, you know, um what's what will happen to America if this it's really a crime against nature uh portion is that if it's not if we don't find a way to deal with it, confront it and end it, you know, because it innocent blood, God counts every person as a it's kind of like every he stops everything for one person. And I I don't know how I'd describe that, you know. But uh you know, this there's a story in the Old Testament or history in the Old Testament where if somebody's found dead in the field and they they they they have to go through incredible challenge, they have to go through incredible procedure to verify that the person wasn't murdered. It's just incredible stuff they go through. And God says he'll if he'll he'll lay the blood on the c it'll end up if it they don't do it properly he'll end up laying the blood on the on the closest city to the person who died. You know. And so I don't I don't I can't remember what the verse the verses are exactly right off the top of my head, but it's a pretty compelling story, you know.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Yeah the process to go through. Yes, for sure. Um yeah, no, I think it's a it's a it's a huge issue.

SPEAKER_04 40:32

We you again when you're talking about the pressure that you can get from culture, society, ultimately it's from the devil um using these things, but the pressure, the pressure that we can get as pastors to say things like, well, that's one of the issues, that's one of the there's lots of issues. Why do you high you know focus hyper focus on on that issue? I think if you have a brain and if you have the spirit of God in you, which obviously not everybody believes God, and so you expect the world to be the world, you expect darkness to act like darkness, but but but we're not talking, but this podcast isn't to the world. This this podcast, that's what I tell my church when I preach, too, is the sermon today. Every once in a while I'll preach a sermon that's totally evangelistic. This is this is just the I'm gonna present the gospel to the non-believer, and but most of the time my sermons are to their church, and that I think this podcast is aimed at Christian pastors, and so we're talking about people with the Spirit of God in them, regenerated souls, a brain in our head using the reason and the logic that God gave us. I don't see how you could call abortion uh just one of the many issues.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Right.

SPEAKER_04 41:38

Um it's a core issue.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Yeah, we have a we have an initiative in America's Black Road Regiment called Project Josiah, which you know about and uh thinking and Project Josiah is the it celebrates it's named after the king who actually ended child sacrifice uh in the old testament. Uh and he he it was an incre it's an incredible story what he did to to to end that that scourge on Israel. Uh and God really blessed him. He poured him poured out a blessing upon his his administration, his life, because he just he did things that were and that were God's priority.

SPEAKER_01 42:15

So let me ask you this. Um is that something you're gonna you're gonna address in a future sermon? For sure. You know, nothing.

SPEAKER_02 42:31

I'm not trying to put you on the spot.

SPEAKER_04 42:34

No, no. Well, I uh you know, it'll it ends up coming out. I I even mentioned it in passing, it wasn't even in my notes uh a couple weeks ago, talking about um I forget how it was. So it'll come out in different at different times and I'll address it in in different ways. But um every year we take um Sanctity of Human Life Sunday and and take portions of service, a portion of our services and and talk about it, and we'll have pregnancy resource centers out in the lobby, et cetera. And so we just kind of have a high a focus on it, and so we'll do that again in January. It's the third Sunday of January, I think. And that's what I was referencing when I was talking about already like preparing some of my notes. But you know, again, I'll I'll do what I do each year, and that's preach preach on it and usually on the image of God and and why we have that world view.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

And um so yes, the answer is yes. Praise God for that. Oh let me ask you this one last question.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

Um Is the pastor's concern just for the salvation eternal salvation of souls in his congregation? What about their temporal concerns, their temporal needs? Does the pastor have a responsibility to care for the temporal needs of his flock?

SPEAKER_01 43:56

I can't imagine a hundred percent, and I think That is a loss as you think about. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 44:06

I heard the question. Yeah. Can you hear me now?

SPEAKER_02 44:08

One of the things we have in our get in our Gideon's 300 pledge says I um I will not set my separate my role as their pastor from matters that have a direct bearing on their temporal or eternal welfare, nor my role as a shepherd from the deliberations and actions of civil government, because those have a direct bearing on the welfare of a flock. So do you think pastors have a responsibility just to get people saved?

SPEAKER_04 44:35

No, evangelists might, but no, not pastors. That's the thing. I mean, imagine we just preach salvation and then we say, hey, good luck on your marriage, good luck on your parenting, good luck, good luck on, you know, good luck on your uh getting free from your addictions, good luck on learning how to share the gospel with your neighbor, good luck on learning how to be a good employee or a good boss. We don't do that with any other part of our world. That's that's part of what got me to the point where I am now as a pastor, is is like, what are we just randomly like not and you could blame it on Johnson Amendment or other things that we've already talked about? Where have we gotten this thing that this is some sacred cabinet to talk about this area of people's lives where when this is a massive part of people's lives? And again, even and that would be at any point in American history, but right now more than ever, politics are very moral. I heard a pastor's pastor Josh Howerton is a great pastor, he has a lot of great things to say about the subject, but he said, we as Christians didn't move the the the goalposts, like politics did that. Like we we've we've been preaching the Bible the whole time. We've been we've been preaching on sanctity of life. You know, the Bible talks about sanctity of life. We've been preaching on um heterosexual marriage being between one man born a man, one woman born a woman. We didn't used to have to say in America born a woman, born a man, but now we do. But we've always preached marriage. I've been I've been preaching marriage since I started preaching the Bible. Um preaching against, you know, and so so but now when I say when I say marriage is between one man born a man, one woman born a woman, which I've been preaching since I started preaching, it's political. And so that's why I say if so if it's political, so be it. So, anyways, back to your question. Of course, we have a responsibility because we have a responsibility to shepherd and disciple and form. Uh you can use lots of different words that the Bible uses, the edification of the saints, the equipping of the saints. And so you just you can't properly equip a saint without helping them with their marriage. You can't co properly equip a saint without preparing them how to deal with the cultural waves. Um and then and then in this case of what we're talking about today, you can't, I don't think you can properly equip a saint without telling them, without teaching them a biblical worldview and how to interact with the political world.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 46:48

Um or you'll be under-equipping the saint and they'll and they'll look like an idiot when they get in conversations with their friends about what they should think as a Christian. And if you want people like that in your church that are, you know, immature like that and can't talk about it, I think you're you're selling your congregation short.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

So speaking of worldview, George Barnett found in his study is I don't know if you follow George Barnett, but he's a pretty good researcher, he has a pretty good reputation. And in his study he put out a year ago, I think it's about a year ago, maybe a little more than a year ago, he found that only six percent of pastors actually had a biblical worldview. That's alarming. Which means their congregation probably doesn't have a biblical worldview, you know.

SPEAKER_04 47:33

Right, right. Totally. And I think that comes from this is my opinion again, but I think it comes from so much of what we've believed we have not reverse engineered from scripture. We've just adopted it from whoever told it to us. And a lot of what and uh and so then there's all uh uh there's these sacred cows, or there's there the there are these landmines where like, well, I that's not what you do. You don't preach about that, or you don't think that, or that doesn't belong in church. And it's like, well, who said? And and but you gotta reverse engineer it back from scripture, and if you do that, um then you're gonna end up with a a proper worldview. But I think we've been um it's just this is a great it is a great reformation, if you want to, in the in the true, I know we're talking about we're in an awakening and a revival, but really I think the church is also in a reformation, which if you look at the the actual word reformation of of the the true church and what we believe, I think we're seeing that we're seeing a shaking, and we're seeing pastors and and therefore churches reevaluating what do I believe? Why do I believe that? And so, yes, there's a little bit of a a falling away when that happens, of like you've got some sections of church and Christianity who are just deciding we're just not gonna believe what the Bible believes, and then then they fail to become a church, you know. That's that's when you're not the true church.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:57

But I think, but I think the true church is is reforming and realizing the importance of all of these things we're talking about. And I put myself in that category. I've like I said, I've tried to be as humble as I can and say like I haven't always gotten it right, but and I'm sure I'm sure I don't get it all right right now, but but we have we have in two thousand back in 2021, we've made a decision. This is how we're gonna preach, this is how we're gonna address these things, and we've been doing it, and I think our church is much better for it. And um and and so, and I think a church that's reformed is the church that can handle revival. Um, so reformation has to precede precede revival in that sense. Or another way to put it is doctrine has to precede you know, a move of God so that we can handle it, so that we can actually disciple the people that get saved. And so I we we want to be able to do that. We want to be a left church wants to be a church who can actually disciple the people who get saved as this revival comes, and I do believe that revival is here. Um so yeah, it's important for pastors to have a biblical worldview back to your back to your statement.

SPEAKER_02 50:03

Okay. Well, I think that pretty much completes our time together today, Josh. I tell you, I want to tell you thanks, just incredible. Thanks for sitting down and letting me pump you you know hit you with questions and answering them. Thank you for having me. It's been great. Hope you'll come back at some point in the future. Hope I haven't sended you so much with questions that you won't come back. No, no, no, this has been great. So uh we'd love to have you back.

SPEAKER_04 50:31

It's been awesome. I'd love to come back. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 50:34

Uh what go ahead and get us your website, Josh.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

For love church.

SPEAKER_04 50:38

Yeah, it's yeah, it's uh it's actually lovechurch.co. Lovechurch.co.co. You can find out all about us there. It used to be we love church.com. That's still that's still forged to it. So we lovechurch.com, but lovechurch.co is our URL. You can go there and find out all about the church.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

And ladies and gentlemen, pastors, to get to our website, it's brrusa.org. We're a nonprofit. So uh you can donate to us and get a tax deduction if you're concerned about that, but you will get uh get the tax deductions we're 501 508 C1A organization. So anything you donate will go to the organization, it'll be tax deductible. So anyway, Josh, thanks for being with us today. It's been great, man. Appreciate it. Thank you. Appreciate it. I'm honored to be on. It's honored, it's an honor to have you.