The Hidden Crisis of Forced Organ Harvesting in China w/ Torsten Trey

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What is really happening behind China’s organ transplant system? In this powerful episode, Dr. Torsten Trey, founder of Doctors Against Forced Organ Harvesting (DAFOH), exposes the disturbing reality of forced organ harvesting and its far-reaching ethical implications.
Dr. Trey shares his personal journey into uncovering this global human rights issue, the history of China’s transplant industry, allegations surrounding the targeting of Falun Gong practitioners, and the challenges of censorship, corruption, and medical silence.
This conversation explores how medical ethics, transparency, and international accountability are at stake—and what individuals around the world can do to raise awareness and push for change.
Topics include:
 • Forced organ harvesting in China
 • Medical ethics and human rights
 • The role of Falun Gong in organ harvesting allegations
 • State-sanctioned transplant systems
 • International medical censorship and transparency
 • Corruption, bribery, and systemic cover-ups
 • The upcoming documentary exposing these claims
 • How global citizens can help create awareness
If you care about human rights, medical ethics, and truth in global healthcare, this is a conversation you won’t want to miss.
#ForcedOrganHarvesting #China #HumanRights #MedicalEthics #OrganTrafficking #Podcast
00:00 Introduction to the Pulse Beat Podcast
02:50 Dr. Torsten Trey: A Warrior Against Organ Harvesting
05:59 The Aha Moment: Discovering Forced Organ Harvesting
08:59 Understanding China's Organ Harvesting Practices
12:05 The Role of Falun Gong in Organ Harvesting
14:50 Establishing Doctors Against Forced Organ Harvesting
17:54 Medical Censorship and the Challenges Faced
21:01 Trust and Transparency in Transplant Medicine
24:02 The Mechanism of Organ Transplants in China
27:00 The Impact of Global Health Trends on Organ Demand
29:48 The Ethical Dilemma of Organ Sourcing
35:43 The Dark Reality of Organ Harvesting
38:42 Documenting the Atrocities
40:49 The Ethical Dilemma in Medicine
43:49 The Erosion of Medical Ethics
46:42 The Silence of the Media
48:09 The Power of Awareness and Action
52:42 The Role of Individuals in Change

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:11

Well, welcome everybody to the Pulse Beat Podcast that we have every single week. We have multiple guests, and um sometimes the conversations are invigorating, sometimes they're difficult, sometimes they're heart-wrenching. Uh, but we bring the truth to the masses and we introduce um individuals that are out there making things happen on many different levels and avenues. And um, I'm so excited and and pleased and honored to have our next guest with us. Uh, he's needs no introduction in many, many circles. But when I met his his beautiful wife, who is the chairwoman of Epoch Times, and she was expressing to me what really their mission has been for all these years, and particularly her dear husband. And I thought, you know, I I thought I was very well versed in a lot of things out there when it gets course in the anti-human trafficking arena where I've been working for many, many years, but I had no idea of the depravity and what was really going on in the depths of the bowels of the evil in our planet. And I think as we spread more and more light on things, of course, it becomes more difficult to keep them in the dark. And this definitely is a man that's a warrior in this space. So I'm gonna share a little bit about him, but I'm gonna ask him to share really um a lot of his vitae and his bio because it's difficult to put passion onto paper. And once you get to hear him and you understand really what he's been doing all these years, and and uh he lets he he's not he's a fearless man, um stands in truth and honesty and integrity uh with a medical background as well. So I'm gonna share a little bit about Dr. Torsten Trey, is the founder and executive director of Doctors Against Forced Organ Harvesting, D-A-F-O-H, a trail-blazing international medical ethics advocacy organization founded in 2006. Under his leadership, it has received global recognition for its unwavering stance against unethical organ harvesting practices, including, I think this is so interesting, the 2019 Mother Teresa Award for Social Justice and being nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 2016, 2017, and 2024. I mean, that takes a lot just to get to that place of a nomination. So again, we're so honored to have you with us. And of course, he's co-authored uh the book State Organs, Transplant Abuse in China with Dave Mathis, Order of the Canadian recipient and unprecedented evil persecution, a genocide against goodness and humankind with human rights lawyer Teresa Chu. In addition, he has contributed to more than 20 peer-reviewed articles published in leading medical and academic journals, with his research being cited more than 350 times in academic and policy discussions as a key figure in raising awareness about the state-sanctioned forced organ harvesting in China. His contributions to the field of medical ethics and human rights are significant. And we could go on and on, but I wanted to point out a couple things here, just in that, that's just two paragraphs, guys. But I wanted to point out something. As we start getting into ethics, policies, and we start getting into human rights, it becomes very gray. And many times people are able to move around in this gray area because there's not a lot of clarity sometimes, and some things that are based on how we feel and how we operate as human beings, our level of honesty in that gray area. Well, this is a gentleman that truly does not work in that area. He's bringing forth some of the things that are happening uh globally and particularly in the Chinese government. And when we talk about sanctioned, state sanctioned, now we're talking about a whole nother animal. And I was just sharing with Dr. Troy just a little bit ago when, you know, I worked in trauma and emergency room for over 27 years. And out of all those years that I was there, I had five that I was aware of, five that we did uh organ harvesting. So think about that. In 27 years, I'm sure there might have been on other, you know, other avenues of the hospital, but none that I was aware of. And I would encourage everybody all the time, make sure you put, because I was thinking from a medical standpoint, all these individuals that needed desperately these organs because they were failing. Was there a way that we could possibly, you know, help to save a life through this, you know, organ donation um mechanism that they had moving? And so since then I've revisited that. And we're going to get into that a little bit. But again, I could go on and on. But thank you so much, Dr. Trey, for being with us today.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Well, thank you so much, Lisa, for having me, but also for this magnificent introduction. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

Oh gosh, I could go on and on. You know, the one thing that I think we we we struggle with in our country and just basically in medicine overall, because the last six years have thrown everybody into a loop, right? Um, trust is such a big thing. Who do we trust in this world that, you know, whether it be medicine, whether it be natural medicine, whether it be in this, you know, the organ harvesting. So can you share with everybody? I know Janice was sharing with me how you met, you know, your your roots, you were birthed in Germany, correct?

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Yes, that's right. Um I was um trained in medicine in Germany. I worked in a hospital in Germany, and then uh at uh for some uh some uh reasons of um uh of uh coincidences I would say uh we came together and uh across the Atlantic Ocean, and that was uh something very um unprecedented, unexpected.

SPEAKER_03 6:09

So you went from when did this all birth within yourself? What was the aha moment? Because as a medical doctor, you know, your commission to save lives and and increase the health of individuals. What was your aha moment when you started paying attention to this unbelievable uh organ harvesting?

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Yeah, so I was in the um uh well I moved to uh America from Germany, and then uh I learned I have to redo my uh medical certification. And uh after I was almost about to finish my certification, then in in 2006, heard from uh from a newspaper. I read in a newspaper something that happened in China. The nurse of a Chinese doctor came to the public like a whistleblower and said, her husband confessed to her that he has removed the corneas from the eyes from 2,000 Falun Gong practitioners. And that was early 2006. And when I heard that, I said, that that cannot, that's impossible. Which doctor would do that? And then there were two, three more articles in a similar um going into the similar direction that China was harvesting organs from persecuted Falun Gong practitioners for transplantation. Uh I talked with colleagues and uh they uh had all the same reactions. They couldn't believe it. So I was um um following this story and um met other doctors, and uh uh I've uh read a report that came, an initial report that came out in July 2006. And what they what this report did was there were two Canadian lawyers and they pretended to be patients and they need uh they pretended to need organs. They called hospitals in China, about 70 hospitals, and in 14 cases, they had a longer conversation and said, Well, uh, we would like to have uh organs from Feng Guang practitioners because we hear they are healthy, they have a healthy lifestyle, and their organs are healthy. And then on the other line, on the other side of the line, the the hospitals will say, Yes, we have those. Just come. So when I heard all this over the first five months until July, when I had my own encounter with the uh Chinese doctors at a uh uh World Transplant Congress in Boston, I asked then, well, how come that there is all of a sudden this transplant boom in in China? Where do those organs come from? And basically, these two doctors, one of them confirmed organs were harvested from following wrong practitioners. And this is how I kind of step by step I stumbled into this topic.

SPEAKER_03 9:08

But um, so you just just just to review for just a moment so people can understand. Like when I was when Janice was kind of walking me through this, I said, so why? And you touched on a couple things that I don't think the average American, they're not aware of, you know, how China works and the different provinces and so on and so forth. Can you share a little bit about how and why there was a specific area that they were actually, you know, taking the heart that their organs are very important?

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Yes. Uh China traditionally um uh believes in the the philosophy of Confucius. And Confucius says, don't take any organs uh before you die, because when you die you want to be complete. So in China and Asia, there are almost no organ donors. So there was a study over uh eight years or so there were maybe 130 people who donated organs. If you think of 1.3 billion people, it's this is nothing. So the um in China there are no organ donors, but they wanted to do transplantation. So they used executed prisoners in the past, in the before 2000, executed prisoners and took their organs. They even had a uh a law pro provisions that said that permitted to harvest organs from executed prisoners. So what but what happened is these prisoners, these executed prisoners are not always of good health. And um so so and also the you there's a limit to how many crimes can be um sentenced to death. So they they reached a limit. But then in 1999, there's something happened when this uh spiritual movement, Falun Gong, was overnight basically, um subject to a persecution, was banned, and the the the government wanted to get rid of them. So that at that point they merged basically both aspects the harvesting of executed con convicted prisoners and the harvesting of political dissidents, if you if you want. Yeah, prisoners of conscience. They didn't do anything wrong, they were just on the wrong side of the Chinese government. So they were now becoming subject uh to forced organ harvesting. And all of a sudden, after 2000, the number of transplantations in China tripled, uh but increased by 300% within four or five years.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

See, I mean, uh uh just allow people to understand the gravity of what was what what is happening to this day. This isn't something that was happening, you know, 60 years ago. This is what's happening today. And according to what I was reading, and now based on all of your research in your book, is that you know, they were having, you know, almost like made-up charges, and people were being entering into this, you know, criminal system, and then their organs they were matching to this day, they match the organs with the need, correct? So they do blood work and they do kind of get onboarding, so they know they can pick from the menu.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

I mean, they they weren't they they did not even go that far to need any any reason to detain these uh Feng Gong practitioners. They just arrested them. They they they saw how they, for example, practice in the park and then they were captured. They they handed out like an information brochure about it, and then uh they were captured. So they didn't do anything wrong. So the concept that they did something wrong, that they were breaking laws in China, that that is a misconception. They didn't do anything wrong, but the government wanted them to wanted to eradicate them. So what they did is they detained them for the practice of Falong Wong, and they didn't bring up any any uh reason. And then they blood typed them. They X did X-rays, uh ultrasound. But they did not do this to the regular prisoners, those who were convicted and who committed crime crimes, only only those uh Falong Wong practitioners were subject to this m to these medical exams. But there were a bit of a couple of things.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

Because just to make it clear for our listeners, is that these people also lived a really clean life, right? They didn't smoke, they didn't they lived a clean life.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

That's right. So according to the uh spiritual practice, they don't drink alcohol, they don't smoke, they uh pursue like what you say, like a healthy, healthy lifestyle, and that makes them um a preferred target for uh organ uh harvesting.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Isn't that I mean this is just mind-blowing to us here. But you know, we have to be aware. So, so you discovered this, and then what was the next few steps that you took? I know that you've been under you and your family have been under a little bit of siege because you've been, you know, whistleblowers on this as well, and claiming and explaining what is actually happening over there. And I wanted to be aware of, even here in the States.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yeah. Um, so uh when again, when I heard about this uh topic uh in 2006, there was not even a name for this this type of abuse. People knew about organ trafficking, but this was not organ trafficking. Organ trafficking is like a commercial contract. You you get money and you donate a kidney, but you survive. Enforced organ harvesting, it is state sanctioned. The donor the the organ source will be killed to avoid any any traces or so that no nobody knows what what happened. So this is state sanctioned, and if it's like a totalitarian system that which controls police, courts, anything, everything, then then they don't need to worry about that. This could leak anywhere. So this gave them the framework to harvest to harvest organs not only from 10 people, 50 people, 100 people, but according to our information, there are tens of thousands, 30,000, 40,000 transplants going on every year. So this is this is what happens when it's really state sanctioned. And in 2006, we were actually our uh we were I have to say first, I have to make a little detour. Uh by the end of July, then I thought, well, somebody needs to do something about this. And I understood what was going on, and then I said, What can I do? I'm just a single doctor. You know, I'm English is my second language. So what can I do? And then I thought I have to found an organization, an NGO, to bring doctors together and to inform doctors. So this is how then uh our NGO, Doctors Against Forced Organ Harvesting, came about. And um the the name that that we have, Doctors Against Forced Organ Harvesting, is basically uh coming um back to to what how how we framed, how how we framed this crime. At that time, people knew about organ trafficking, but nobody could really capture what is happening in China. So we came up with a definition of forced organ harvesting, and that that was basically becoming part of our name and our channel.

SPEAKER_03 16:49

And you'll have all the information is running on the bottom. So if anybody wants additional information, um, but uh I was I received this right here from Dennis, and this explains forced organ harvesting from living people in China. That the profound word here is living people in China. And how and how they go about this and what they actually did. And um what I'm personally excited about is you know, we have many doctors in America that really don't know of what you speak of. So as we can continue to teach and educate our doctors here in America on what might be occurring and happening on a global stage, you know, they can have their awareness about them, correct?

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Yes, of course. Of course. But there are obstacles. Um so and and that this was not only surprising to me, but also very disheartening in the in these uh years. Uh what was disheartening, it was the lack of support and even blockages from Western transplant doctors in the field, instead of welcoming us, which which we found in some of those doctors. We have uh we have doctors in our uh NGO, those are the I think the best doctors, most the most fantastic doctors ever. They are so righteous and they want to stop this abuse. But on the other side, there are also doctors who have interests or have um other, well, maybe financial interests, or they are compromised, or I don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_03 18:24

But there are doctors who are Janice explained to me when she was at a medical conference, right?

unknown 18:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 18:31

And she started asking questions and how she went to a different floor and they told her, You'll have the answers over here, right? And and they were there was literally tables set up and different how the different organs, the cost, kind of like a menu, right?

unknown 18:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

That blew my mind.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

But um now what we have faced at several times with several um leading um transfund organizations and medical organizations in in America. What we have found is that the leadership, especially the leadership of these organizations, they block they block us from distributing our information. For example, we went to one conference and signed up for the exhibition hall. This is uh an area where, for example, pharmaceutical companies have their table and they inform um doctors about the different um medical drugs. We had a booth prepared and wanted to inform doctors about forced organ harvesting. But then the organizer kicked us out, rejected our um application, and we were wondering why that happened. And uh they didn't give they didn't give any reasonable reason. Yeah, they it was just like they had the what we got in the email.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

What year was this? What year was this?

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Two years ago, 2024.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

That is crazy.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

That's just a couple years ago.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Yes, we asked why, and they say we decided to take a different direction. What academic reasoning is that? So what is actually happen what is actually happening here is this is set medical censorship on US soil by American transplant organization organizations. Can you imagine that? I was blown away that this is we just want to bring information in. If a doctor says, like, oh, you know, your your findings is is just uh you know junk, that's fine with me. I I don't I I'm I'm not pushing for the uh for the uh point that our research is uh you know correct. And I think it is correct, but that's not my point. My point is that we were not even given the opportunity that these doctors can take a look at our uh re our at our findings. Yeah, and um what we have found is like when I show this information to doctors who are willing to take a look, usually doctors who are not in the transplant field, by the way. Within five minutes within five minutes they say, something is wrong here in China. This this has to stop. Yeah, so so what we have is really is really shaping doctors who follow the medical oath. So what happened in these medical organizations that they censored us is almost unbelievable in the uh 21st century.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

I I'm I'm shocked. You know, I thought for some reason in my mind, I remember Gianna sharing a little bit about that with me, and I kept thinking it was years ago. If this is only two years ago, that's even more shocking to me.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Because it happened actually not only once or twice, but two, three times. So it's not a single incident, it's a trend.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

So so the organizations behind, you know, getting it on our driver's license and being a, you know, organ donator and that kind of stuff. Not only the depravity of what's going on on an international scale, but just here globally, I mean, they've been pushing that for years. Is that part of their they don't want any disruption in that, do you think? It's just that they don't want the information out there at all.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

That that can be a motivation that they say what we have to say is uh showing a stain on the transplant uh uh community and it will um discourage people from donating. But that is a wrong, totally wrong approach. Totally wrong. Uh you mention you mentioned in the beginning, you mentioned trust. And that is very important. Uh transplant medicine is uh is a special discipline that is very different from any other medical discipline. It usually in a medical discipline, you have two parties, the patient and the doctor. But in transplant medicine, you have actually three parties, which is the organ donor, who also serves to be protected, by the way, the organ recipient and the doctor. So you have three three parties involved in transform medicine. And to build, you know, if you just if you're just having a conversation one-to-one, building up trust is not too difficult. But when it comes to three groups, then trust becomes essential. And I said, usually I say trust is a gold standard in uh transplant medicine. And trust, uh, how can you reach trust by transparency? So you have to talk about it. You cannot, you know, if you try to hide what is going wrong in transplant medicine, it will basically erode the transplant medicine over time. So what you have to do is you have to take it head on and be totally transparent and say, hey, what is going on in the transplant field in China is wrong. And we are not standing up to this. We want to stop that. And there no negotiation. That's how you uh regain the trust from the patients. So we are completely clear about this aspect that if you want to increase the organ donations, you have to be 100% transparent to to the patients, to everyone.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

That is this is just so fascinating to me that this is this has been going on unbeknownst to us. Of course, they keep things on an international scale, they keep everything pretty quiet, I would imagine. Of course. So w walk me through like let's say uh somebody over here needed a heart transplant and they're on the list and they're you know, way down at the bottom, 260,000 down the list that needs a heart. How does that mechanism, that machine work if they wanted a because I'm thinking, you know, from a standpoint of how do you keep these organs alive or viable from the people from America reach out to China and get them brought over that way?

SPEAKER_00 25:04

So um in terms of waiting times, there the waiting times for kidneys are five, six years sometimes for hearts and lungs is like uh more than half a year. So in some cases, uh the patients be uh are uh desperate to get a transplant, and then they then they allured to China. Then they uh they hear about yeah, China is doing transplant and they are tempted to go. Then from China they say they would not send the organs abroad, because in that case you have to provide documentation. Then for example, who is who is the donor? How did he how did he die? What happened to him? When you hear, for example, uh blunt uh forced trauma trauma to the head, yeah, then it was basically a shot to the head. He was executed. So if you if you write this too often, like 10, you know, 500 times, then people get nervous. So what China is doing is uh they ask the people to come to China.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

Got it.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Once they can do it in China, there are no traces. I give you an another example to um reinforce this point. We one of our um uh doctors um from uh is in uh Malaysia, uh he's a kidney uh doctor, and he um he had patients going to China for transplantation, and they usually came back with a doctor's letter where they listed all the information, the procedure, the medication, the complications. But in 2006, after 2006, when this whole practice became public all of a sudden, then these patients returned without a letter because they did not want to mention which doctor was performing the surgery. They didn't want to leave any trace. So the patients who went to China for transplantation, they returned to Malaysia without any letter. And that that shows you uh in a different way how they tried to um, you know, um delete all traces and make it impossible to discover.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

This is just unbelievable. Well, we're gonna take a really quick break. We're gonna thank um and talk about our sponsor, Cardium Miracle. Um if you haven't tried it yet, my goodness, and if you're stuck with hundreds like me, if you were stuck with hundreds of supplements and um you were trying to again look at the healthiest way to stay healthy. Uh, Cardiom Miracle has over 700 nutrients, and it is a nitric oxide um explosion in the body, let's put it that way. So it encourages the nitric oxide uptake in your body, encourages, and what does nitric oxide do? It encourages and helps us with the delivery of the nutrients that are in there, but also for oxygen, all the way to the tips of your toes, tips of your head, tips of your fingers, and so on. And so we've had tremendous, tremendous success with Cardi Miracle in thousands of people across the United States, especially in the last six years when everybody's looking for what is the best heart health product out there. Cardi Miracle is the ultimate best. We have white papers. If you want to go to Cardi Miracle.com forward slash studies, you're gonna see the studies about it and how it's helped people that really came to the table with no hope left. So we're really, really thankful for John Hewlett, the owner and the founder and the formulator to put this together for us. Easy to take, easy to give to our children. And again, over 700 nutrients and over 58 ingredients. So we're really, and and we're talking about organic whole food. And so if you're wondering, is this just another nutrient? Absolutely not. This is a nutrient with a cause and a mission behind it. Its founder itself is is is dedicated to bringing out good information like we're doing now, honest good information to the average person out there. So they really understand really uh what's going on globally, how what we can do to help one another, and how we heal the hearts of mankind. So thank you, Cardiomerical. So back to your your the information that you're delivering, I think for people listening to this for the very first time, they're gonna be somewhat surprised because this isn't a conversation that you hear from the average doctor and physician out there, and you certainly don't hear over the coffee table with you know your visitors to your home. This is something that's taking place. And I think now, answer me if I'm correct. In the last six years, we've seen more uh individuals lose their life, become very, very ill, and have tremendous challenges with their health. So I would expect the need for failing organs and and organ transplants would be at a higher rate. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Yeah, that's that's correct. Uh there's uh uh raising um need for for organs for for transplantation.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

So think about it. The average person, you know, if I'm thinking if I had a family member that needed a heart, for instance, because we know that, you know, heart challenges right now in the last six years have been skyrocketing. And uh so they would reach out, they people would understand that they get a heart transplant list, it's X, Y, and Z, months, years, whatever it might be, and then they're introduced to a possibility of going to China and getting a new organ. The thing that I'm sitting here thinking about is how do they know, because of the lack of transparency, how do they know that this organ is even a viable organ? Do they have failed organs, I imagine, that are ha happening from time to time? And then what?

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Yes. Um the um on in China they have introduced a system that completely eliminated the information from where the organs are coming from. So there is there's uh there is no um trustworthy access to the information uh and um to find out how and from where the organs are coming from. So it is in a way a little bit like a um uh gambling, I would say. So then of course these organs were uh coming largely from, for example, Falongong practitioners, and and um they were in a healthy state because they had a healthy belief, they had a healthy practice, qigong did qigong practices. So imagine if they transplant an organ, at that moment, if they rip out the organ and transplant it. At that time, the organ was probably in a very good shape. But then what happened is the patient who has this organ, he's not following that righteous belief. He doesn't follow truthfulness, compassion, forbearance, he doesn't do exercise. So at that time, the organ in the recipient can degenerate very quickly because he he does not uh because they don't follow this lifestyle, healthy lifestyle. So then what you see after uh a few months there are like rejections or the organ doesn't have the um um you know loses its its quality, and then uh people from China return and say, Well, I have um now I have uh these problems. Can you help me? And then uh sometimes it's uh not possible to help. So it's um the whole concept of taking organs from healthy people who who are healthy because they have a healthy lifestyle, and then trans uh uh transplanting the organ, that whole concept is wrong. But the the China is not doing this uh whole transplant scheme for um or transplant business to um to to help the transplant um community in China. That's not the purpose, the what what the the the you know that everyone is earning money. It's like I have to say it this way. Here in the in the West, we follow an altruistic organization program. In China it's completely different. 180 degrees, it's different, it's an on-demand system. So there are customers. There are customers who come with demands. So there is the recipient, he wants an organ, okay, he gets an organ. Then there's a doctor who's doing this transplant and he wants money and he gets the money. And then there are police and judges and uh wards in the detention camp. Everyone is earning money. But then when it comes to the um to the government, to the CCP, they are also customers, but they have a diff uh different demand. Their demand is not is not about money, their demand is to eradicate the uh the these minorities. They they use this, if you s if you want to say it, they they they use transplant medicine as a civil uh contract pilling. They bring the prisoners to the operating room, harvest their organs, and the prisoner is dead. So that is the goal, what the the government uh wants. They want to um eliminate uh dissidents, prisoners of conscience. And it started with Falung Gong, largely with Falongong. Um the transplant business in China would not exist without Falangong practitioners. But later they found some customers from the Middle East, they are Muslims, they want halal organs, so they were not satisfied with Falungong practitioners. But there in Xinjiang province in the north northwest uh of China, there uh there are the Uyghurs, which is a Muslim population, about 15 million people. And those became the preferred um source of organs for the uh for the recipients from the Middle East. So China has evolved this practice like over the years and became more and more sophisticated, trying to find the the right um organ uh sources for the demands. But in um in this case, uh I have to say, I have to re-emphasize this. In in the case of Falun Gong, the Chinese government is a consumer and they demand that these Falun Gong practitioners are eliminated in a civil way. Wow. Now we reach a complication, I would say. So there are patients from all over the world, including from uh the US, they go to China, they say, I need a kidney. So what happens then? The mechanism is the doctor goes to a a list, an archive, and says, We have blood type, like all these thousand practitioners, and practitioner this prisoners, prisoner 5, 3, 2, 4x, he has exactly the blood type, bring him to the operating room. So that that prisoner of conscience is killed on demand because the recipient had the demand and needed this blood type. So the the the patient who comes from abroad is basically triggering the execution of the prisoner. So if you think of uh the Nuremberg trials, uh it may who knows, maybe in the future, all those who traveled to China for organs are had uh uh um uh are facing sentence sentencing just because they were complicit, like a contract killing, they were complicit in this killing on the man. So what we what we are now doing, we started our work uh in the for 20 years ago by uh uh because we wanted to stop the killing for organs in China. But now we are actually in a in a completely we understood this is a completely different situation. Now we want to protect, we want to protect medical schools, we want to protect universities, we want to protect doctors here in the US, including the uh uh the those patients who are going who are needing uh uh a transfer. We want to protect them that they are not becoming complicit in that human rights violation that takes place in China. So this this is now our topic.

SPEAKER_03 37:29

Unknowingly, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Mostly unknowingly, but I I think some know about it and still want to do it. But mostly probably unknowingly. This is the Nuremberg trials, let me let me add that. The Nuremberg trials show showed that if you don't know about it but still participate in it, that uh doesn't help you. That you're you are still subject to prosecution. So uh just saying it especially in a in an age of uh computer and access to information, our information is out there. So it can be expected that the uh a patient does the research first. So it is almost impossible that he did not uh hear about forced organ harvesting in China.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

This is, I mean, the first time I heard you know Janice's visit about this, I uh for days I couldn't get it out of my head. It was like, how how how can this happen? Number one. Number two, we knew you know the depravity of mankind, but also what can we do about it? And you just shared part of your mission is for education. Um, and of course, there's information on the bottom if anybody would like to get involved. And uh I know that you are also right in the middle of a movie, is that right? You're doing a documentary?

SPEAKER_00 38:53

That's right. We are we're working on a documentary for now that's more than a year. And this uh documentary is about to be uh r released probably in one or two weeks. So that's so exciting. We are really looking forward to bringing actually really broad and deep and profound information to the public.

SPEAKER_03 39:18

So they can find all the information about the upcoming movie on the on the data on the bottom here, as well as if they would like to contribute, they can go to your website. That information is on the bottom here. And then also, what is the next step for Dr. Trey? Uh, other than you know, you're educating. Um and I love the fact that you're letting these die. I mean, I was just thinking about the other day, you know, when I first went into as a nurse and I went into the field, and you know, this is I'm not gonna say how many years ago, but quite a few years ago, and I was working night shift, and part of our part of our job was to take the little silver trays and look at the needles for burrs, and we'd have to, you know, we'd have to shile off the burrs of the needles, so I sound like I was on a horse and buggy age, but to think about how far we've advanced today and then going into natural medicine, how our whole goal is to catch people before they get sick, right? But if you look at the ad the advances in medicine, one of the areas, of course, that I'm I'm uh really advantageous about is educating them on nutrition because the average doctor doesn't have any doesn't what I think they have 45 minutes or so on nutrition and healing, you know, that type of thing. So I'm excited that that is being, you know, embedded into their education per Secretary Kennedy. But also I think uh the awareness of all of this uh type of you know atrocities that are going on, they need to be aware of this as well. So I'm excited that you're being able to share this with our doctors nationwide as well.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Yeah. What you said uh is actually important. Uh you pointed out that uh we need nutrition. And as uh in the medical profession, we also need pharmaceutical pharmaceuticals, drugs, etc. But we are not just a car, we are not just a hardware. We also have a heart, we have a conscience, we have a soul, we have emotions. This is a part that is that is that is often gets lost. So yes, you can transplant an organ, but if you if you sell your soul for that, what is it worth it?

SPEAKER_02 41:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

So if you i imagine you get an organ from China, and then later, two weeks later or two months later, you learn that that organ might come from a prisoner who was innocent and who was just killed for you to get that organ. And then you have that organ every day, every minute in you, and you have to to bear the bear the burden that you cause the death of somebody else so that you can so can can you imagine what psychological uh uh terror, horror that that is kind of uh setting loose. So so the aspect of um the the the soft aspect, if you want, that of conscience of doing the right thing is very important. And what we are now seeing is that the medical profession is tempted to cover up the forced organ harborism. But what I can foresee is that the transplant profession will lose its soul over the time. And the conscience will will will catch up to them. And then they say, Why didn't you do anything? Why didn't you speak up? So this is something that uh that our NGO also uh and uh is uh putting effort into it, that that we have to think of doing the right thing. We have to we have a medical oath, we have um that doctors have a conscience, a medical a professional conscience, we want to do the right thing, and this this basically keeps us going to inform doctors to say don't stop it. Yeah, that that's um that that's very important and often uh forgotten.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

I just think this is fascinating. I I'm excited that we're able to deliver this very tragic story and information. But you know, like we said in the beginning, the more that we put light into the darkness, you know, the darkness can't survive. So the fact that we're getting the word out about what you've been doing for twenty years, I can't believe it's been twenty years that you've been at this. And I I know that you and Janice and your family, you've taken s you've at at great risk to your family to bring this information out here.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Yes um if you if you had if you have the heart to do the right thing and you see the the the um the whole p potential in correcting a system then you're willing to do that. For example, what is happening in in China is eroding our transplant system. So the now we have a discussion of for um in in China you you you get organs, you pay for it. It's not ultra, it's not like for free. You pay for it. Now we have discussions that maybe we should allow to take organs from other prisoners in our country and pay them, or just free people and allow them to pay them for the organs. And we we where does this conversation come from? We didn't have this like 30 years ago or so. So the the our assist, our medical ethics system is eroding because China is pushing, is pushing bad practices on us. And then we have doctors in the leadership who are willing uh to cooperate with China for for some whatever reason. But they do this for uh uh by sacrificing our medical standards, and that's what I want with our work, what I want to stop. We have to you know remind ourselves that there are ethical standards. You cannot kill people to treat another, you cannot kill uh somebody to treat a patient. That would lead the uh medical profession into an absurd practice. Why why is this possible to happen for so many years? China pays like billions of dollars to uh newspapers, to news media, and tries to cover up. So when when we, for example, submit an uh op-ed to newspapers about forced organ harvesting, it will never be published. And the the newspapers also don't publish articles about forced organ harvesting. There was a very courageous journalist, uh Didikers Tadlow, she worked uh at the uh New York Times, and she brought published two, three articles that really got to the issue. And um she also told me that uh the Deputy Minister of Health in China approached her and uh said she she should uh reconsider her articles, and I think he also said like she should think of uh her kids who were also with her in China.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

Wow. And something like this. So so there is a systematic uh effort to silence this topic. So why is that the case? Because for two reasons. For one, they want to they want to stop the victims of forced organ harvesting, for example, Fan Kong, to tell their story about their practice. Right. When they are all killed and organ harvested, they cannot talk about what their practice is about. And their practice is about f following truthfulness, compassion, forbearance, uh, living a healthy life, etc. Nothing bad about this. It's it's it's good. But uh for that reason, China is trying to eradicate it because what is good in their practice exposes how bad, how evil the CCP is. So they they basically they see themselves in a in a clean mirror, and then they say, well, let's destroy the mirror, throw a stone in the mirror in into the mirror that nobody can see how ugly we are. So that's that that is one aspect of silencing this topic, using forced organ harvesting as the last method, uh the ultimate method to silence Falong Gong practitioners. The other thing is this practice is so horrible. Over 20 years, when I talk to people, everyone within five minutes is cannot believe it. It's completely fine, it's outrageous. It just takes five minutes. So imagine if this information goes to the mainstream media and all all America would talk about it. China would collapse China would collapse. You know, nobody would want to buy any products more from China. Made in China would be kind of what force originale is saying? No. Yeah, so so China has is basically totally afraid that this topic could become viral and could be spread all over the world. That that is a strong uh statement, I know. But remember in 1989, Tinamens were massacred. There was a all the cameras, they showed how 3,000 students were shot. Next day, many countries withdrew economic contracts from China. And China actually had to struggle for 10 years. If this happened today with so much business in China, people and countries would understand, wow, in China they kill people for their organs. This could trigger such a big backlash that the economy in China and the communist system, the Communist Party, would actually collapse. So that's why they are actually afraid that I'm now talking about it, because every time I talk about it and bring more awareness on this topic, it's one step closer to the point where where this house of cards in China is collapsing.

SPEAKER_03 49:39

That's right. And you know what? A lot of the, I believe a lot of the doctors don't even understand really the mechanism. I mean, I was just thinking the other day, you know, right now, I mean, I when I first went into the medical field, it was the doctors hung their own shingles out. Patients came to them because of their reputation, uh, who they were, and all of a sudden, of course, then came in the sweep where the doctors and hospitals, or doctors are bought up by the hospitals, right? Now the hospitals are owned and operated by big corporations. And so the average day in a life of a doctor is much different in 2026 than it was in 1979. So they have they are they are ha they have to meet, of course, their quota, right, of how many patients they see. I believe the stress on them is greater today than ever before because they cannot lean on their own conscience many times. They have to do what is commanded of them from higher ups. But the more that we can awaken them like we're doing today, and I believe that your message is going to go wide and far, and we can educate them just to ask the questions, right? Where are they going? Um, we understand that you know your loved one needs an organ of some sort, and maybe we can pull them back into that arena of really asking themselves the tough questions of what is my conscience going to allow me to do in this type of arena? And I just think there's so much deception. And we know the power of marketing. You know, the power of marketing is how would anybody know a few years back that this was actually coming from someone that was killed on their behalf? I can say probably nine out of ten of the people would be overwhelmed with grief, but yet that's gonna their their desire for them to live and of course extend the life of a loved one must be tremendous as well. Um, I commend you for this and I commend your wife, you know, her story when, you know, she was put into forced labor camp as a child. Uh I, you know, I just sat there in amazement because I had never met anybody that had gone through, physically gone through that as a child. You know, I look at my three-year-old granddaughter and I'm like, how? And you know, we celebrate when she puts her bowl on the counter. You know, how can how can you go through this? I mean, I'm just so amazed at the strength that you two have as a couple and what you're putting out there. And thank you so much for doing that. This is just the beginning of us doing more and more of these broadcasts and more and more of these podcasts, so we can really take you through the steps of the success and also the sorrows along the way and just raising the awareness. We just want people, you know, the one thing that Charlie Kirk always said, we just want people to have conversations, right? We want them to ask the tough questions, we want them to be um made more and more aware, but don't just we our our society is already being so dumb and down.

SPEAKER_02 52:52

Yeah, that's that's so true.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

We just want to have a conversation. We just want to share our observations, the facts, the data. We have charts. For example, in China we saw we saw that on one day in uh on December 30, 2015, the so-called OM donation numbers, the donors, within one day increased by 25,000. And it was really three three three zeros. Yeah, we checked the numbers, the numbers are public. We looked at the numbers on December 30th and then December 31st, and then has increased by exactly 25,000, three zeros at the end. So there was somebody wanted to improve the numbers at year's end. It was just a desk, uh somebody at the at a desk who who wrote the numbers, totally made up. Yeah, and and the a year later, in 2016, uh we followed the numbers over a week. Within one week, the numbers have have increased by 88,600. So completely made up. Yeah, the whole year the increase was very, you know, imagine like very slow, but then end of the year it jumped. We we we in the West we have a uh we have usually a good heart. And we we cannot actually think how in China the uh and the Communist Party is cheating. We absolutely cannot understand that. We are we are like really like elementary el elementary school level because we we cannot beyond what we can imagine, that's basically where they start to to to work. And uh if if needed, they just made up numbers. And uh we we have observed it. So so then the what we want to part of our work is is to help people to to think outside of the box. Because if you are not able to think outside of the box, you always believe uh well, there's no problem. But um the one aspect is for example, corruption. And uh in China uh corruption is widely spread. So of course we have heard the the terms of corruption, okay. But how how how far does it go? For example, if you go to an operating room uh to an emergency room and you just you for example, you broke an arm, you broke a leg, whatever. Uh if you go to the emergency room, they say you have to wait eight hours. Why? Because there are other people who bribe the doctors to get first.

SPEAKER_02 55:41

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

So so so without bride, you basically don't make it from the emergency room. So what then happened is this that the the people in China are afraid to become organ donors. Why? Because if you have an accident, you want the doctor to help you to survive. But if somebody in the room says, Oh, I need a kidney, and I I know that person here is blood type and he's waiting for weeks in that emergency room just to find, he pays the the doctor a thousand dollar or whatever currency. And then the the the doctor will basically not help this exit this um uh victim who had the the the accident. And that's how your your life is at stake. So people don't sign up as a donor because they are they know how corrupt the system is. So if you think this way, this is normal in China. I hear that from many uh Chinese people that corruption is normal, more normal than we can imagine. So they will, of course, export this this model of uh corruption and bribery. They go to the leaderships of transplant organizations or other medical organizations, invite them to China for a very nice visit, and so on. Or they say, uh, if we have uh transplant conferences in China, we don't invite your members if you are speaking up against post-organ harvesting. It's just one, you know, one conversation in an in the in an elevator, something like that. So now we see that that the doctors here in the US, although they have the freedom of the country, they don't speak up. We have seen this for 20 years. I have I have discussions with many doctors, and they they know about it, they don't want, they don't want to talk, or they are afraid of it. When we went to some conferences, we also met this type of doctor. Uh when we gave information material, they say, keep keep on going. We like what you do. That's what they told us. But they they have like they they feel they are actually afraid to talk about, to give this lesser uh support because they know that the leadership of those transplantations organization are not happy about it. So they are afraid. There's fear in the medical community, and we need courage from medical doctors to step up. So when you think of when you think of this corruption model, think what will happen with what you just mentioned, the hospital chains. This is not a single hospital, but now you just go to the head, uh to the headquarters or to the uh CEO of um hospital uh conglomerate who has like 100 hospitals. It's so easy for the CCP to just go to that person. So they compromise that person or they bribe that person, whatever, and all 100 hospitals are blocked. So in the past it it wasn't wasn't possible because it was uh the the the hospitals were all individuals, hospitals on its own. That's basically the grassroot, the grassroot work of the hospitals and doctors if they are on their own. And that's where we come in. We say, well, China can corrupt and bribe um bigger um conglomerates and and companies. But what they cannot do is they cannot bribe millions of individuals who just just share the information on social media and make it go viral. So that that's actually the China cannot do that. They cannot control that. That's why they are totally afraid of what we are sharing goes into the um uh social media area. And that's actually our strength. If you say, how can we stop that? We uh you know China, we cannot do anything in China. Don't underestimate what millions of people and public sharing can do to China. Because when China, when when the whole world talks about forced organ harvesting, the leadership at the CCP is losing face. That is that is basically it just takes it just takes three days and the person is gone. Yeah. So so we have as an individual, we have tremendous power if we just like a grassroot uh grassroot um campaign say, well, I'm just grass one grass, you know, one one grass leaf, but one blade of grass. Yeah, but if we have millions, then we have a pasture. Yeah, and that's that's that's our strength here. And I I am that's right. I I continue to be optimistic and that that uh we can achieve that effect to stop the post-organizing in China if we just uh come together. Which I often describe as uh, you know, you can break a single chopstick, but if you have a a bundle of chopsticks, you you cannot break it. And that's what we have to achieve.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:04

I like that. Well, you know, you need three, right, for a for a cord. Um, but also have you ever met anybody that has escaped from being a you know, them being attempted to do this forced harvesting?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:21

Well, by concept, it is impossible because uh they they often harvest the organs, for example, in military uh hospitals, and those places are so well guarded it's almost impossible to escape. And then of course, if I mean if if you have a kidney removed, you could possibly live, but if they remove your heart or you don't even you cannot even escape. So so uh basically there is uh there are no people after 2006 who have escaped and could give testimony. That is by design.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:56

Well, I cannot thank you enough. I know I'm keeping you longer than necessary, but this is such a such a profound story and and you know, information and data that I don't think the average person is aware of. And if we can all share um enough to raise the awareness that you just talked about, um I think we're gonna we're gonna make some headway. And I just I can't thank you and your your wife enough for taking this on. I can't I just I I can't imagine doing this for for 20 years, and the depravity of it must weigh on you, you both and your whole organization. I encourage everyone to go to their website, contribute however you can in in Word and however resources, and your movie's gonna come out. We're gonna have you come back uh in a couple weeks and talk about the movie and where they can watch it and how they can be involved in that as well. And we also once again want to give a shout out to our sponsor, Cardi Miracle. Um, you know, when I was when we were talking about organs and we were talking about, you know, how people need organs more in the last six, six years than ever before. Um, I believe that this this product has saved probably thousands and thousands of lives by keeping, you know, the the nitric oxide flowing through the our organs, veins, and arteries, and delivering blood um throughout the body. And with over 700 nutrients and over 58 ingredients, we've heard miracle after miracle. Again, go to CardiMiracle.com and uh and join us again. We're gonna have you back in a in a couple weeks, and we're gonna talk about the movie and uh how that's all working and how people can continue to contribute to your fight and lock arms with you so you truly are not alone in this in this journey. I'm honored to be able to be here with you today and um for the rest of this journey, Dr. Trey.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:55

Well, thank you for having me, and I'm looking forward to speak more in the future.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:01

Absolutely. God bless everybody. Thank you for joining us on the Pulse Beatles.