{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.0,"body":"you just let go of the control,"},{"startTime":2.0,"endTime":4.25,"body":"and then you wait for something new to emerge."},{"startTime":4.25,"endTime":6.416,"body":"But that underworld is really dark"},{"startTime":6.416,"endTime":8.083,"body":"and you don't see where you're going."},{"startTime":8.458,"endTime":10.583,"body":"where a dream you had,"},{"startTime":10.583,"endTime":11.958,"body":"that didn't, that wasn't fulfilled,"},{"startTime":11.958,"endTime":14.333,"body":"a broken dream, heartbreak,"},{"startTime":14.333,"endTime":16.541,"body":"it all brings you there."},{"startTime":16.541,"endTime":19.458,"body":"And sports psychology has all these"},{"startTime":19.458,"endTime":23.0,"body":"great techniques for the smaller losses."},{"startTime":26.0,"endTime":27.0,"body":"When we watch soccer,"},{"startTime":27.0,"endTime":28.041,"body":"something happens that has"},{"startTime":28.041,"endTime":29.5,"body":"nothing to do with soccer"},{"startTime":29.5,"endTime":31.208,"body":"and everything to do with it."},{"startTime":31.208,"endTime":32.916,"body":"Welcome to the Golden Ball,"},{"startTime":32.916,"endTime":34.333,"body":"where depth psychology"},{"startTime":34.333,"endTime":35.666,"body":"and the beautiful game"},{"startTime":35.666,"endTime":37.125,"body":"help us play life better."},{"startTime":37.541,"endTime":38.75,"body":"My name is John O' Brien,"},{"startTime":38.75,"endTime":40.583,"body":"former World cup soccer player"},{"startTime":40.583,"endTime":42.0,"body":"and sports psychologist."},{"startTime":42.416,"endTime":43.666,"body":"My name is Machiel Klerk."},{"startTime":43.666,"endTime":45.416,"body":"I'm a psychotherapist and"},{"startTime":45.416,"endTime":47.125,"body":"co-founder of the Jung Platform."},{"startTime":47.625,"endTime":49.416,"body":"My name is Akke-Jeanne Klerk."},{"startTime":49.416,"endTime":51.333,"body":"I'm a personal development coach,"},{"startTime":51.333,"endTime":54.541,"body":"Jungian teacher and co founder of Jung Platform."},{"startTime":54.75,"endTime":58.291,"body":"And today we are going to explore loss."},{"startTime":59.5,"endTime":61.708,"body":"And we're at the World cup,"},{"startTime":61.708,"endTime":64.125,"body":"arrived at the knockout phases."},{"startTime":64.125,"endTime":68.583,"body":"So teams will lose and go home."},{"startTime":68.583,"endTime":71.875,"body":"And that is a bigger loss."},{"startTime":71.875,"endTime":72.666,"body":"That's a big loss."},{"startTime":72.666,"endTime":74.25,"body":"And so we want to distinguish"},{"startTime":74.25,"endTime":76.125,"body":"between smaller losses."},{"startTime":76.125,"endTime":78.083,"body":"You make a little mistake in the field,"},{"startTime":78.083,"endTime":79.791,"body":"the ball jumps off your feet."},{"startTime":79.791,"endTime":81.5,"body":"How do you respond to that?"},{"startTime":81.5,"endTime":83.166,"body":"There's a whole set of ways"},{"startTime":83.166,"endTime":84.125,"body":"of being with it"},{"startTime":84.666,"endTime":87.625,"body":"and there are the bigger losses."},{"startTime":87.625,"endTime":90.791,"body":"You miss the deciding penalty"},{"startTime":90.791,"endTime":92.708,"body":"and in the knockout phase"},{"startTime":92.708,"endTime":94.458,"body":"and your team goes home."},{"startTime":94.458,"endTime":96.125,"body":"The whole team goes home."},{"startTime":96.125,"endTime":98.333,"body":"Or if we stretch it even further,"},{"startTime":98.333,"endTime":98.666,"body":"Or if we stretch it even further,"},{"startTime":98.666,"endTime":101.541,"body":"have an injury and you're out for six, nine months."},{"startTime":102.5,"endTime":106.583,"body":"That is really to do with a broken dream."},{"startTime":107.375,"endTime":110.75,"body":"And something in your identity is,"},{"startTime":110.75,"endTime":111.791,"body":"has radically changed."},{"startTime":111.791,"endTime":112.0,"body":"has radically changed."},{"startTime":112.0,"endTime":113.625,"body":"You're no longer a person"},{"startTime":113.625,"endTime":115.291,"body":"who plays at the World Cup."},{"startTime":115.291,"endTime":116.708,"body":"You're a person who's sitting"},{"startTime":116.708,"endTime":118.583,"body":"on the couch watching the World cup."},{"startTime":119.291,"endTime":123.541,"body":"And how do you deal with bigger losses?"},{"startTime":123.541,"endTime":126.458,"body":"And we're going to look at that today."},{"startTime":126.708,"endTime":130.0,"body":"And Jeanne, you actually wrote a book about"},{"startTime":130.0,"endTime":132.291,"body":"heartbreak because we're talking a bit"},{"startTime":132.291,"endTime":134.541,"body":"about heartbreak in this way."},{"startTime":135.125,"endTime":136.958,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":136.958,"endTime":140.916,"body":"And it was a heartbreak"},{"startTime":140.916,"endTime":143.208,"body":"when the Dutch team had to go home."},{"startTime":144.375,"endTime":146.625,"body":"Just like all the players on the field,"},{"startTime":147.583,"endTime":149.583,"body":"I was totally invested."},{"startTime":149.583,"endTime":152.333,"body":"I had to put my alarm clock."},{"startTime":152.333,"endTime":153.916,"body":"Woke up in the middle of the night,"},{"startTime":153.916,"endTime":155.666,"body":"3am to watch the game."},{"startTime":157.0,"endTime":159.875,"body":"I was there and then they lost."},{"startTime":159.875,"endTime":165.666,"body":"And that feeling is horrible."},{"startTime":166.75,"endTime":166.875,"body":"And the tendency is to get out"},{"startTime":166.875,"endTime":169.958,"body":"And the tendency is to get out"},{"startTime":169.958,"endTime":171.958,"body":"of that emotion straight away."},{"startTime":171.958,"endTime":173.791,"body":"And of course as psychologists,"},{"startTime":173.791,"endTime":176.708,"body":"depth psychologists, we know that that"},{"startTime":176.708,"endTime":178.708,"body":"feeling is really something to address."},{"startTime":178.708,"endTime":181.583,"body":"But yes, I've experienced that loss recently."},{"startTime":183.791,"endTime":184.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":184.0,"endTime":186.416,"body":"I've also, having lived in Holland for"},{"startTime":186.416,"endTime":188.666,"body":"over 10 years, become a Dutch fan."},{"startTime":189.458,"endTime":191.791,"body":"And them being knocked out"},{"startTime":192.666,"endTime":195.166,"body":"was emotional for me as well."},{"startTime":195.166,"endTime":195.875,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":195.875,"endTime":199.375,"body":"Not on a huge scale of a personal heartbreak,"},{"startTime":199.375,"endTime":200.458,"body":"but it was emotional."},{"startTime":200.458,"endTime":202.5,"body":"And one thing I noticed again,"},{"startTime":203.375,"endTime":206.291,"body":"letting myself have the feelings for a bit."},{"startTime":206.291,"endTime":208.25,"body":"But then I also started getting a vision of like"},{"startTime":208.25,"endTime":210.208,"body":"oh yeah, World Cup's gonna be over at some point."},{"startTime":210.208,"endTime":213.333,"body":"And then like there was some perspective shift of"},{"startTime":213.333,"endTime":216.416,"body":"oh yeah, there's things I kind of want to do."},{"startTime":216.416,"endTime":218.5,"body":"The World cup takes up a lot of time"},{"startTime":218.5,"endTime":220.375,"body":"and energy and there's some things"},{"startTime":220.375,"endTime":221.583,"body":"that I want to do afterwards,"},{"startTime":222.166,"endTime":224.25,"body":"just reflecting on my own experience of."},{"startTime":224.25,"endTime":226.416,"body":"And maybe we could do that during this session of"},{"startTime":226.416,"endTime":230.0,"body":"tracking these different patterns in loss,"},{"startTime":230.875,"endTime":232.75,"body":"and how the mind tends to deal with it"},{"startTime":232.75,"endTime":235.833,"body":"and how people deal with it differently as well."},{"startTime":237.125,"endTime":238.5,"body":"And I know Machiel, you had a real"},{"startTime":238.5,"endTime":240.333,"body":"interesting framework that I think"},{"startTime":240.333,"endTime":242.333,"body":"is not the most common in sports psychology,"},{"startTime":243.375,"endTime":245.416,"body":"more from a depth psychology perspective."},{"startTime":245.416,"endTime":247.25,"body":"So I'd love to hear more about that."},{"startTime":247.25,"endTime":249.458,"body":"Maybe that could anchor our conversation a bit."},{"startTime":250.25,"endTime":251.208,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":251.208,"endTime":255.0,"body":"The loss is an opening into the underworld."},{"startTime":255.0,"endTime":256.625,"body":"It's an underworld journey."},{"startTime":257.291,"endTime":260.333,"body":"It's an initiation into a new state."},{"startTime":260.333,"endTime":265.208,"body":"And the underworld is in the Greek,"},{"startTime":265.208,"endTime":266.666,"body":"mythology is Hades."},{"startTime":267.833,"endTime":270.333,"body":"In the Christian terminology it would be hell."},{"startTime":270.333,"endTime":272.333,"body":"But it's not the same."},{"startTime":272.333,"endTime":276.833,"body":"But it expresses the deep pain that we go through,"},{"startTime":277.666,"endTime":278.75,"body":"when we experience"},{"startTime":278.75,"endTime":281.458,"body":"bigger losses in our life, heartbreaks."},{"startTime":282.0,"endTime":285.125,"body":"And the natural response is,"},{"startTime":285.125,"endTime":286.25,"body":"I don't want to go there."},{"startTime":286.958,"endTime":290.583,"body":"No one wants to go voluntarily into the underworld."},{"startTime":292.083,"endTime":296.541,"body":"And the problem that arises is that"},{"startTime":296.541,"endTime":298.25,"body":"when you have a big loss,"},{"startTime":298.25,"endTime":300.041,"body":"whether it's you lose a job"},{"startTime":300.041,"endTime":301.958,"body":"or you lose a partner"},{"startTime":301.958,"endTime":306.75,"body":"or you lose your dream as moving to the next round"},{"startTime":306.75,"endTime":309.791,"body":"as a soccer player or fan,"},{"startTime":310.0,"endTime":314.208,"body":"is that you're immediately find yourself"},{"startTime":314.208,"endTime":316.291,"body":"in this territory, in the underworld."},{"startTime":317.125,"endTime":318.958,"body":"And it requires,"},{"startTime":319.583,"endTime":321.875,"body":"a certain way to navigate through that."},{"startTime":322.625,"endTime":328.25,"body":"The classic things, just be strong, just move on."},{"startTime":329.041,"endTime":330.708,"body":"Don't think about it,"},{"startTime":330.708,"endTime":334.208,"body":"are counterproductive and actually harm yourself."},{"startTime":334.208,"endTime":338.708,"body":"And in psychology would be called dissociation."},{"startTime":339.25,"endTime":339.625,"body":"It's."},{"startTime":339.625,"endTime":341.958,"body":"You're not in touch with the feelings that come."},{"startTime":342.625,"endTime":344.416,"body":"But we also live in a culture that hasn't"},{"startTime":344.416,"endTime":347.0,"body":"really taught us, at least the Western culture,"},{"startTime":347.0,"endTime":349.125,"body":"it hasn't really taught us how to."},{"startTime":349.125,"endTime":351.583,"body":"How to go through the underworld."},{"startTime":354.166,"endTime":357.208,"body":"And yet it is one of the most important"},{"startTime":357.208,"endTime":359.041,"body":"journeys we can take in life."},{"startTime":360.958,"endTime":363.666,"body":"So it's in a little nutshell."},{"startTime":365.333,"endTime":365.75,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":365.75,"endTime":368.583,"body":"And so that underworld that is,"},{"startTime":368.583,"endTime":371.375,"body":"is full of confusion and shock"},{"startTime":371.375,"endTime":377.958,"body":"and grief and disorientation."},{"startTime":379.166,"endTime":379.75,"body":"And it's."},{"startTime":379.75,"endTime":381.541,"body":"It's really interesting, you know,"},{"startTime":381.541,"endTime":386.75,"body":"when a player who has just entered the underworld"},{"startTime":386.75,"endTime":391.083,"body":"after the whistle gets in front of a reporter,"},{"startTime":393.375,"endTime":396.5,"body":"that wants to criticize or blame."},{"startTime":396.5,"endTime":400.458,"body":"And I think that show an attitude"},{"startTime":400.458,"endTime":403.416,"body":"that we have more often,"},{"startTime":403.416,"endTime":406.041,"body":"that we want to blame someone,"},{"startTime":406.041,"endTime":407.416,"body":"it's your fault."},{"startTime":407.416,"endTime":407.875,"body":"Like It's the,"},{"startTime":407.875,"endTime":412.083,"body":"It's a player's mistake"},{"startTime":412.083,"endTime":415.416,"body":"rather than the first level of empathy."},{"startTime":416.541,"endTime":417.416,"body":"Ouch."},{"startTime":417.416,"endTime":419.5,"body":"That really, really hurts."},{"startTime":420.458,"endTime":420.875,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":420.875,"endTime":423.416,"body":"And both the empathy to self and to the,"},{"startTime":423.416,"endTime":424.208,"body":"to the player."},{"startTime":424.916,"endTime":425.458,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":425.458,"endTime":428.333,"body":"Because, in the Dutch team,"},{"startTime":428.333,"endTime":430.5,"body":"in the Dutch world, everyone,"},{"startTime":431.291,"endTime":434.333,"body":"the first impulse is, we're in the underworld."},{"startTime":434.333,"endTime":437.0,"body":"It sucks here, and it's your fault, Kumo."},{"startTime":437.541,"endTime":438.041,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":440.916,"endTime":442.5,"body":"And in that way, like, it's also."},{"startTime":443.291,"endTime":445.5,"body":"That's also a strategy to get people"},{"startTime":445.5,"endTime":447.541,"body":"out of the underworld, I'd say."},{"startTime":447.541,"endTime":448.125,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":448.125,"endTime":449.0,"body":"Like If you're."},{"startTime":449.0,"endTime":450.25,"body":"You're feeling some pain and then"},{"startTime":450.25,"endTime":451.75,"body":"you don't want to be there,"},{"startTime":451.75,"endTime":453.125,"body":"it's kind of blaming someone."},{"startTime":453.125,"endTime":455.333,"body":"Having anger and pointing the finger"},{"startTime":455.333,"endTime":459.25,"body":"gives you some sense of control agency, some power."},{"startTime":459.25,"endTime":459.583,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":459.583,"endTime":462.541,"body":"When we're talking about being kind of powerless,"},{"startTime":462.541,"endTime":465.0,"body":"like a setback or loss being."},{"startTime":465.0,"endTime":466.458,"body":"There's some part of it"},{"startTime":466.458,"endTime":468.875,"body":"that you're actually powerless"},{"startTime":468.875,"endTime":472.375,"body":"and you're forced to kind of confront that in some way."},{"startTime":473.083,"endTime":473.833,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":473.833,"endTime":474.291,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":474.291,"endTime":477.166,"body":"And what you describe, what"},{"startTime":477.166,"endTime":479.666,"body":"is actually a survival mechanism."},{"startTime":479.666,"endTime":480.208,"body":"You are..."},{"startTime":480.208,"endTime":482.333,"body":"One is powerless, one is in the underworld,"},{"startTime":482.333,"endTime":484.625,"body":"and you want to get out,"},{"startTime":484.625,"endTime":487.833,"body":"and so you can get out by blaming others,"},{"startTime":487.833,"endTime":489.208,"body":"but another part of you"},{"startTime":489.208,"endTime":491.0,"body":"will stay in the underworld."},{"startTime":491.791,"endTime":492.916,"body":"So there is an..."},{"startTime":492.916,"endTime":495.083,"body":"You dissociate, there's a split."},{"startTime":495.083,"endTime":496.5,"body":"A part of you lives there,"},{"startTime":497.25,"endTime":501.083,"body":"and the survival mechanism moves up,"},{"startTime":501.083,"endTime":503.041,"body":"starts blaming others,"},{"startTime":503.041,"endTime":505.083,"body":"feels good about itself."},{"startTime":505.708,"endTime":509.791,"body":"And now there's a massive internal split."},{"startTime":511.708,"endTime":511.875,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":511.875,"endTime":513.291,"body":"I wonder if it'd be good"},{"startTime":513.291,"endTime":516.5,"body":"to unpack dissociation a little bit more"},{"startTime":516.5,"endTime":518.916,"body":"and what the harms in that are,"},{"startTime":519.958,"endTime":521.333,"body":"for people so they can understand."},{"startTime":522.041,"endTime":522.458,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":522.458,"endTime":523.625,"body":"We're talking about"},{"startTime":523.625,"endTime":526.541,"body":"letting yourself go into the underworld a little bit."},{"startTime":526.541,"endTime":527.708,"body":"So giving some people information"},{"startTime":527.708,"endTime":530.125,"body":"on why that's really necessary"},{"startTime":530.125,"endTime":532.375,"body":"and helpful and the dangers if you,"},{"startTime":532.375,"endTime":533.25,"body":"If you don't."},{"startTime":535.416,"endTime":535.958,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":536.541,"endTime":540.541,"body":"So there are, of course, different"},{"startTime":540.541,"endTime":541.75,"body":"perspectives to it."},{"startTime":541.75,"endTime":544.5,"body":"But what I see, for example, in people, in clients"},{"startTime":544.5,"endTime":546.875,"body":"that I have around heartbreak, is that"},{"startTime":546.875,"endTime":551.0,"body":"when they try to think their way out of experiences,"},{"startTime":551.0,"endTime":553.083,"body":"when they're willing their way through"},{"startTime":553.083,"endTime":556.458,"body":"so that they're disconnecting from their emotional life,"},{"startTime":558.375,"endTime":558.791,"body":"something..."},{"startTime":559.833,"endTime":563.208,"body":"Those emotions start having a life of their own."},{"startTime":563.208,"endTime":565.833,"body":"They're no longer part of the conscious experience,"},{"startTime":566.375,"endTime":569.083,"body":"but they still continue to have a life."},{"startTime":569.083,"endTime":572.916,"body":"And they might be operating as defense mechanisms"},{"startTime":572.916,"endTime":575.416,"body":"because they haven't really felt the experience."},{"startTime":576.291,"endTime":578.25,"body":"And now these defenses kick"},{"startTime":578.25,"endTime":580.833,"body":"in order to prevent it happening again."},{"startTime":581.5,"endTime":583.416,"body":"And so there is a..."},{"startTime":583.416,"endTime":586.375,"body":"They're shying away from opening the heart again."},{"startTime":588.25,"endTime":592.458,"body":"And I think that is a real loss"},{"startTime":593.083,"endTime":595.25,"body":"on a personal level,"},{"startTime":595.25,"endTime":598.0,"body":"but also for people in sports that"},{"startTime":598.0,"endTime":599.75,"body":"once you've surrendered"},{"startTime":599.75,"endTime":602.458,"body":"there's the opportunity of opening up"},{"startTime":602.458,"endTime":604.5,"body":"to that creative impulse again."},{"startTime":604.5,"endTime":605.791,"body":"Because otherwise"},{"startTime":605.791,"endTime":608.75,"body":"you get disconnected from the body partly"},{"startTime":608.75,"endTime":611.916,"body":"and with it from the impulse."},{"startTime":613.541,"endTime":614.083,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":614.625,"endTime":618.166,"body":"And in soccer that is of course"},{"startTime":618.166,"endTime":621.958,"body":"massively problematic if you're not really"},{"startTime":621.958,"endTime":624.041,"body":"in touch with your body or"},{"startTime":624.041,"endTime":628.25,"body":"even if you have to take a penalty"},{"startTime":628.25,"endTime":632.25,"body":"and you don't feel certain feelings"},{"startTime":632.958,"endTime":635.333,"body":"and then the survival mechanism"},{"startTime":635.333,"endTime":638.708,"body":"or the thoughts, the anxiety kicks in"},{"startTime":638.708,"endTime":642.375,"body":"and you start performing less"},{"startTime":643.041,"endTime":645.041,"body":"because you haven't gone through the"},{"startTime":645.041,"endTime":647.208,"body":"underworld in the appropriate way."},{"startTime":647.833,"endTime":649.083,"body":"Yeah, I like that."},{"startTime":650.125,"endTime":652.375,"body":"I'm thinking of the word coherence."},{"startTime":652.375,"endTime":654.208,"body":"When someone seems to have"},{"startTime":654.208,"endTime":656.416,"body":"kind of gone through an underworld journey,"},{"startTime":656.416,"endTime":657.666,"body":"there's something about them"},{"startTime":657.666,"endTime":659.25,"body":"that seems like all parts are there"},{"startTime":659.25,"endTime":660.958,"body":"and all parts are working for them."},{"startTime":660.958,"endTime":662.875,"body":"And I think we're talking about sometimes"},{"startTime":662.875,"endTime":665.0,"body":"these other parts of ourselves, right,"},{"startTime":665.0,"endTime":667.833,"body":"dissociated from, that aren't working for you."},{"startTime":667.833,"endTime":669.958,"body":"And if you have a career that's as demanding"},{"startTime":669.958,"endTime":671.625,"body":"as professional soccer"},{"startTime":671.625,"endTime":673.625,"body":"and you don't have all your parts"},{"startTime":673.625,"endTime":675.458,"body":"kind of online working for you,"},{"startTime":675.458,"endTime":677.541,"body":"it's going to be tough"},{"startTime":677.541,"endTime":679.416,"body":"you dissociated in some ways,"},{"startTime":679.416,"endTime":680.416,"body":"split off from feelings,"},{"startTime":680.416,"endTime":682.833,"body":"don't have access to our creative energy."},{"startTime":684.291,"endTime":686.333,"body":"It's going to be tough in the long run."},{"startTime":686.333,"endTime":689.458,"body":"Yeah, your inner team is not functioning."},{"startTime":689.458,"endTime":692.5,"body":"You're playing with nine players"},{"startTime":692.5,"endTime":696.666,"body":"and two are screaming on the sideline."},{"startTime":697.708,"endTime":701.375,"body":"And yeah."},{"startTime":702.583,"endTime":706.041,"body":"And I think here that accepting reality"},{"startTime":706.041,"endTime":709.166,"body":"is a real important element of it."},{"startTime":709.708,"endTime":713.25,"body":"I think the impulse is to resist what is happening,"},{"startTime":713.25,"endTime":716.333,"body":"to resist the loss, to see if you can"},{"startTime":716.333,"endTime":719.875,"body":"change things that will alter the outcome."},{"startTime":719.875,"endTime":721.875,"body":"But in the knockout phase"},{"startTime":721.875,"endTime":723.791,"body":"you can no longer alter the outcome."},{"startTime":723.791,"endTime":725.375,"body":"So somehow you've got to come"},{"startTime":725.375,"endTime":726.875,"body":"to terms with experience."},{"startTime":727.583,"endTime":730.125,"body":"So that acceptance and not accepting"},{"startTime":730.125,"endTime":732.25,"body":"like I like what's coming on my path"},{"startTime":732.25,"endTime":735.375,"body":"but acknowledging that it's there."},{"startTime":737.208,"endTime":741.083,"body":"So, so how would you say for example Timber"},{"startTime":742.583,"endTime":747.833,"body":"made a significant shot next to the goal,"},{"startTime":747.833,"endTime":750.958,"body":"but he is now at home replaying the scene,"},{"startTime":751.666,"endTime":754.166,"body":"trying to change the outcome in some form."},{"startTime":754.75,"endTime":756.291,"body":"Yeah, if I had."},{"startTime":756.291,"endTime":757.25,"body":"And what if."},{"startTime":757.25,"endTime":760.291,"body":"And these are the classic"},{"startTime":761.333,"endTime":762.916,"body":"resistant thoughts."},{"startTime":762.916,"endTime":763.5,"body":"What if."},{"startTime":764.041,"endTime":767.166,"body":"How would you,"},{"startTime":767.166,"endTime":769.958,"body":"Well, how would you work with Timber?"},{"startTime":769.958,"endTime":773.25,"body":"Yeah, so, that reflection is really important"},{"startTime":773.25,"endTime":775.083,"body":"but not in the initial stage."},{"startTime":775.083,"endTime":776.958,"body":"That is something for that second stage."},{"startTime":776.958,"endTime":778.75,"body":"Let's have a look."},{"startTime":778.75,"endTime":782.208,"body":"Because in a way, when you're reimagining it,"},{"startTime":782.208,"endTime":784.041,"body":"there's also an element"},{"startTime":784.041,"endTime":787.291,"body":"as if you were able to change the outcome."},{"startTime":787.291,"endTime":791.791,"body":"So an element of letting go of expectations"},{"startTime":791.791,"endTime":794.416,"body":"that have not been met in the past"},{"startTime":794.416,"endTime":795.916,"body":"is really important."},{"startTime":795.916,"endTime":798.583,"body":"And it's somewhat similar to self forgiveness."},{"startTime":798.583,"endTime":801.125,"body":"So I wish I was different or that I..."},{"startTime":801.125,"endTime":802.708,"body":"That it had gone differently,"},{"startTime":803.666,"endTime":805.083,"body":"but that hasn't happened."},{"startTime":805.083,"endTime":807.916,"body":"And so I'm letting go of that expectation."},{"startTime":810.541,"endTime":812.916,"body":"I think that is a really important element."},{"startTime":812.916,"endTime":815.333,"body":"And maybe you even repeat that several times,"},{"startTime":815.333,"endTime":815.75,"body":"really,"},{"startTime":815.75,"endTime":816.375,"body":"to feel,"},{"startTime":817.0,"endTime":820.625,"body":"to feel the pain and the horror and the suffering."},{"startTime":822.25,"endTime":823.083,"body":"And only later"},{"startTime":823.083,"endTime":826.0,"body":"when you've gone through that experience,"},{"startTime":826.0,"endTime":827.916,"body":"then later you can look."},{"startTime":827.916,"endTime":828.791,"body":"Let's look."},{"startTime":828.791,"endTime":829.666,"body":"What went wrong?"},{"startTime":830.333,"endTime":831.75,"body":"What can I learn from it?"},{"startTime":831.75,"endTime":835.833,"body":"Because, of course he wants to do."},{"startTime":835.833,"endTime":838.583,"body":"Well, I think that he initially"},{"startTime":838.583,"endTime":841.25,"body":"wants to have the ball go in."},{"startTime":841.25,"endTime":843.416,"body":"I don't think he looks at it initially."},{"startTime":843.958,"endTime":845.333,"body":"What can I learn from this?"},{"startTime":846.041,"endTime":851.333,"body":"Yeah, initially he doesn't wanted the ball to go in."},{"startTime":851.333,"endTime":853.083,"body":"Then he didn't want to be there."},{"startTime":853.083,"endTime":853.5,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":853.5,"endTime":855.166,"body":"That was his initial response,"},{"startTime":855.166,"endTime":857.083,"body":"get me out of this place, wherever I am."},{"startTime":857.708,"endTime":857.916,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":857.916,"endTime":859.333,"body":"I don't want this experience."},{"startTime":859.333,"endTime":859.708,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":859.708,"endTime":860.083,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":860.083,"endTime":861.583,"body":"And then he probably had that,"},{"startTime":861.583,"endTime":863.666,"body":"that part of replaying it afterwards."},{"startTime":863.666,"endTime":864.291,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":864.291,"endTime":866.0,"body":"Sitting in your hotel room"},{"startTime":866.0,"endTime":867.208,"body":"and that thought comes up."},{"startTime":867.208,"endTime":870.166,"body":"I think of that as like trauma theory."},{"startTime":870.166,"endTime":871.416,"body":"Kind of talks about that."},{"startTime":871.416,"endTime":872.0,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":872.0,"endTime":873.583,"body":"It's a situation you didn't want,"},{"startTime":874.541,"endTime":875.666,"body":"where there's a lot on the line."},{"startTime":875.666,"endTime":879.916,"body":"Not physical life in danger, but, symbolic."},{"startTime":879.916,"endTime":883.041,"body":"Your symbolic self is put out there on the field"},{"startTime":883.041,"endTime":885.75,"body":"and you did something that wasn't successful."},{"startTime":885.75,"endTime":887.125,"body":"So there's a lot of shame involved."},{"startTime":887.333,"endTime":889.5,"body":"So the mind just keeps coming up"},{"startTime":889.5,"endTime":891.791,"body":"with these thoughts and replaying itself."},{"startTime":891.791,"endTime":893.833,"body":"And I like what you said, Akke-Jeanne,"},{"startTime":893.833,"endTime":897.041,"body":"that that's kind of a stage and you got to kind of work"},{"startTime":897.041,"endTime":899.916,"body":"with that a little bit before you can maybe go"},{"startTime":899.916,"endTime":904.333,"body":"into a little bit more unpacking of you know,"},{"startTime":904.333,"endTime":908.125,"body":"a meaning making of this experience for."},{"startTime":908.125,"endTime":909.875,"body":"For Timber or for someone else."},{"startTime":910.625,"endTime":911.5,"body":"Well, that too."},{"startTime":911.5,"endTime":914.458,"body":"And even the meaning making is"},{"startTime":914.458,"endTime":917.791,"body":"almost like trying to avoid that emotion, like"},{"startTime":917.791,"endTime":920.5,"body":"I jumped to an interpretation and how it affects"},{"startTime":920.5,"endTime":921.375,"body":"my life."},{"startTime":921.375,"endTime":924.041,"body":"Which is again, a great question to ask"},{"startTime":924.041,"endTime":925.541,"body":"at a later stage."},{"startTime":925.541,"endTime":928.833,"body":"First you want to be present to the emotion."},{"startTime":930.416,"endTime":930.916,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":931.708,"endTime":932.083,"body":"And."},{"startTime":932.083,"endTime":933.541,"body":"And that what you say, John,"},{"startTime":933.541,"endTime":934.833,"body":"I don't want to be here."},{"startTime":934.833,"endTime":937.958,"body":"That's not exactly the signal of you are there."},{"startTime":938.916,"endTime":942.583,"body":"And how can you be where you are?"},{"startTime":943.291,"endTime":946.416,"body":"And people need to be helped with that and"},{"startTime":947.0,"endTime":949.5,"body":"whether that is wherever in your life"},{"startTime":949.5,"endTime":952.208,"body":"you're fired from your job, your cat dies,"},{"startTime":953.166,"endTime":954.166,"body":"you have an illness, anywhere"},{"startTime":954.166,"endTime":955.166,"body":"you have an illness, anywhere"},{"startTime":955.166,"endTime":957.291,"body":"where a dream you had,"},{"startTime":957.291,"endTime":960.541,"body":"that didn't, that wasn't fulfilled,"},{"startTime":960.541,"endTime":962.916,"body":"a broken dream, heartbreak,"},{"startTime":962.916,"endTime":965.25,"body":"it all brings you there."},{"startTime":965.25,"endTime":968.75,"body":"And sports psychology has all these"},{"startTime":968.75,"endTime":972.291,"body":"great techniques for the smaller losses."},{"startTime":972.625,"endTime":976.416,"body":"Like Guardiola has the five second rule"},{"startTime":976.416,"endTime":979.75,"body":"where you're not going to linger"},{"startTime":979.75,"endTime":983.25,"body":"into being annoyed with yourself"},{"startTime":983.25,"endTime":984.25,"body":"if you lost the ball"},{"startTime":984.25,"endTime":986.333,"body":"or that the ball jumped off your feet,"},{"startTime":986.333,"endTime":988.791,"body":"you didn't pass it well enough,"},{"startTime":988.791,"endTime":992.416,"body":"immediately you learn to step over that"},{"startTime":992.416,"endTime":993.916,"body":"to get the ball back."},{"startTime":995.041,"endTime":997.333,"body":"Super helpful with the small losses,"},{"startTime":998.041,"endTime":999.583,"body":"The bigger losses,"},{"startTime":999.583,"endTime":1001.083,"body":"like what we now talk about,"},{"startTime":1001.083,"endTime":1004.458,"body":"we have a different attending"},{"startTime":1004.458,"endTime":1007.416,"body":"and that is very important"},{"startTime":1007.416,"endTime":1010.208,"body":"and I think our discussion"},{"startTime":1010.208,"endTime":1011.833,"body":"today about it,"},{"startTime":1011.833,"endTime":1013.25,"body":"it is a really important one."},{"startTime":1014.208,"endTime":1014.666,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1014.666,"endTime":1016.25,"body":"And I love that you said that"},{"startTime":1016.25,"endTime":1018.291,"body":"and I've seen that a lot in the sport culture"},{"startTime":1018.291,"endTime":1019.833,"body":"where that kind of skill"},{"startTime":1019.833,"endTime":1021.083,"body":"of the first one up,"},{"startTime":1021.083,"endTime":1023.5,"body":"forget it, let it go next play like is used for"},{"startTime":1023.5,"endTime":1027.041,"body":"these bigger losses and it really cuts off people"},{"startTime":1027.041,"endTime":1029.083,"body":"from their humanity in ways"},{"startTime":1029.083,"endTime":1030.541,"body":"and doesn't help them."},{"startTime":1030.541,"endTime":1032.375,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1032.375,"endTime":1034.708,"body":"Or when in a really big thing,"},{"startTime":1034.708,"endTime":1036.458,"body":"when you, when someone dies."},{"startTime":1036.458,"endTime":1039.416,"body":"I recently heard it, someone died and someone said"},{"startTime":1039.416,"endTime":1043.333,"body":"he's so strong and I thought, well,"},{"startTime":1043.333,"endTime":1046.25,"body":"I hope his strength is that he really cries hard."},{"startTime":1047.666,"endTime":1049.5,"body":"I hope that is his strength"},{"startTime":1049.5,"endTime":1050.875,"body":"and not the strong of"},{"startTime":1051.75,"endTime":1053.375,"body":"I can handle this and,"},{"startTime":1053.375,"endTime":1059.708,"body":"and muscle and willpower you through big grief."},{"startTime":1061.75,"endTime":1065.541,"body":"Yeah, that's an important part of a culture shift."},{"startTime":1065.541,"endTime":1067.916,"body":"I feel like in sport we're getting better at that."},{"startTime":1068.875,"endTime":1071.416,"body":"What bravery is, is kind of welcoming"},{"startTime":1071.416,"endTime":1074.416,"body":"feelings and expressing vulnerability."},{"startTime":1074.416,"endTime":1074.708,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1074.75,"endTime":1076.791,"body":"It used to be a lot of not showing it."},{"startTime":1076.791,"endTime":1078.208,"body":"So that's so important."},{"startTime":1078.208,"endTime":1081.916,"body":"Which I can understand because again"},{"startTime":1081.916,"endTime":1083.833,"body":"I'm talking about reporters because"},{"startTime":1083.833,"endTime":1086.416,"body":"I think there's also room for improvement"},{"startTime":1086.416,"endTime":1087.291,"body":"on the report."},{"startTime":1088.25,"endTime":1093.25,"body":"And rather than asking critical questions"},{"startTime":1093.25,"endTime":1097.833,"body":"or almost wanting a player, to humiliate the player,"},{"startTime":1097.833,"endTime":1100.458,"body":"they're already in a grieving stage."},{"startTime":1101.75,"endTime":1102.833,"body":"And to then to ask"},{"startTime":1102.833,"endTime":1105.833,"body":"what could you have done better,"},{"startTime":1105.833,"endTime":1110.875,"body":"that is so tremendously crushing."},{"startTime":1112.875,"endTime":1116.5,"body":"Rather than acknowledging that someone is"},{"startTime":1116.5,"endTime":1120.125,"body":"in pain,"},{"startTime":1120.125,"endTime":1122.75,"body":"and they don't have to be therapists,"},{"startTime":1122.75,"endTime":1128.0,"body":"but there is something of leaving a player in dignity,"},{"startTime":1128.0,"endTime":1130.666,"body":"that they tried their best"},{"startTime":1130.666,"endTime":1133.875,"body":"and that they're more than just that loss"},{"startTime":1133.875,"endTime":1134.916,"body":"in the moment."},{"startTime":1136.75,"endTime":1137.25,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1137.25,"endTime":1141.0,"body":"So there's, I feel very strongly about this,"},{"startTime":1142.583,"endTime":1147.25,"body":"Well, you also have especially with,"},{"startTime":1147.25,"endTime":1150.5,"body":"with the Dutch journalist, you,"},{"startTime":1150.5,"endTime":1153.25,"body":"you think they're, they,"},{"startTime":1153.25,"endTime":1155.666,"body":"they need to learn to ask questions."},{"startTime":1155.666,"endTime":1157.75,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1158.625,"endTime":1160.375,"body":"I'd love to keep us moving along"},{"startTime":1160.375,"endTime":1161.833,"body":"in this kind of arc."},{"startTime":1161.833,"endTime":1162.708,"body":"I think of it, you know"},{"startTime":1162.75,"endTime":1163.666,"body":"a journey down the world"},{"startTime":1163.666,"endTime":1165.083,"body":"and think of some kindof visually"},{"startTime":1165.083,"endTime":1166.708,"body":"like a dip and then a return."},{"startTime":1167.5,"endTime":1168.833,"body":"And how do you know when the..."},{"startTime":1168.833,"endTime":1170.958,"body":"When the feelings have been acknowledged enough"},{"startTime":1171.708,"endTime":1173.0,"body":"and maybe, maybe it becomes"},{"startTime":1173.0,"endTime":1174.5,"body":"a little more cognitive"},{"startTime":1174.5,"endTime":1176.791,"body":"where you're making interpretations,"},{"startTime":1176.791,"endTime":1179.375,"body":"reflecting or shifting your perspective."},{"startTime":1179.375,"endTime":1180.125,"body":"How do you know"},{"startTime":1180.125,"endTime":1182.083,"body":"what's the other parts of these journey"},{"startTime":1182.083,"endTime":1183.625,"body":"that we can map out for people?"},{"startTime":1183.625,"endTime":1185.333,"body":"I think it's really important"},{"startTime":1185.333,"endTime":1187.833,"body":"to first acknowledge your defenses"},{"startTime":1187.833,"endTime":1190.125,"body":"because as long as you don't know"},{"startTime":1190.125,"endTime":1194.333,"body":"what your defenses are around pain and suffering,"},{"startTime":1195.0,"endTime":1197.75,"body":"you think you're going to be okay."},{"startTime":1197.75,"endTime":1199.958,"body":"So first it's about recognizing"},{"startTime":1199.958,"endTime":1202.666,"body":"what is happening without giving into it."},{"startTime":1203.291,"endTime":1205.25,"body":"So those might be impulses as well,"},{"startTime":1205.25,"endTime":1207.541,"body":"and you need to separate them"},{"startTime":1207.541,"endTime":1209.333,"body":"from creative impulses."},{"startTime":1209.333,"endTime":1214.291,"body":"So the impulse to train really hard or"},{"startTime":1214.291,"endTime":1216.416,"body":"get your attention elsewhere."},{"startTime":1216.416,"endTime":1219.416,"body":"First you need to know what your defenses are"},{"startTime":1219.416,"endTime":1223.416,"body":"and then see if you can stay away from them."},{"startTime":1223.416,"endTime":1227.083,"body":"Step back a little when they show up."},{"startTime":1227.708,"endTime":1229.791,"body":"Because the moment that they..."},{"startTime":1230.375,"endTime":1233.0,"body":"They melt away or they crumble away."},{"startTime":1233.0,"endTime":1235.416,"body":"There's different processes for this."},{"startTime":1237.208,"endTime":1240.25,"body":"You enter this stage almost of nothingness,"},{"startTime":1240.791,"endTime":1244.416,"body":"of the liminal stage, of in between."},{"startTime":1244.416,"endTime":1246.875,"body":"The old things have gone and maybe"},{"startTime":1246.875,"endTime":1249.208,"body":"part of your old identity has gone"},{"startTime":1249.208,"endTime":1252.083,"body":"and the new thing hasn't risen yet."},{"startTime":1252.083,"endTime":1255.375,"body":"So you're in that in between stage."},{"startTime":1255.375,"endTime":1257.541,"body":"What you need to be able to do here,"},{"startTime":1257.541,"endTime":1261.375,"body":"or one of the things is to be okay with not knowing,"},{"startTime":1262.791,"endTime":1264.541,"body":"not knowing where it might go to."},{"startTime":1266.375,"endTime":1273.25,"body":"Yeah, I think the big templates in Western literature,"},{"startTime":1273.25,"endTime":1274.958,"body":"are, for example, Dante."},{"startTime":1274.958,"endTime":1279.333,"body":"Dante gets expelled, exiled from his place,"},{"startTime":1279.333,"endTime":1282.0,"body":"and goes into the underworld"},{"startTime":1282.0,"endTime":1283.583,"body":"and has this whole journey"},{"startTime":1283.583,"endTime":1285.0,"body":"through the underworld."},{"startTime":1285.0,"endTime":1288.541,"body":"And at the end, he returns as a new person."},{"startTime":1289.375,"endTime":1292.0,"body":"So the promise in it lies that you will arrive."},{"startTime":1292.0,"endTime":1294.875,"body":"If you do the journey as a new person,"},{"startTime":1294.875,"endTime":1296.583,"body":"you go through a transformation"},{"startTime":1297.875,"endTime":1301.291,"body":"and you are being transformed."},{"startTime":1301.291,"endTime":1305.166,"body":"So you can give a lot of your ego desires"},{"startTime":1305.208,"endTime":1309.208,"body":"and how it has to go up by just tending to it."},{"startTime":1309.208,"endTime":1310.666,"body":"And then on a certain moment"},{"startTime":1310.666,"endTime":1314.208,"body":"you will feel that that life is shifting."},{"startTime":1315.791,"endTime":1321.541,"body":"And all these mythologies of underworld journeys"},{"startTime":1321.541,"endTime":1324.833,"body":"give templates of how this journey goes."},{"startTime":1324.833,"endTime":1327.083,"body":"And in almost any spiritual tradition"},{"startTime":1327.083,"endTime":1332.125,"body":"there are some underworld journey,"},{"startTime":1332.125,"endTime":1333.208,"body":"and it's very important"},{"startTime":1333.208,"endTime":1335.625,"body":"to go through all these phases,"},{"startTime":1335.625,"endTime":1338.291,"body":"but give up control, not knowing,"},{"startTime":1338.291,"endTime":1341.791,"body":"and then see what emerges on its own timeline."},{"startTime":1342.375,"endTime":1344.708,"body":"The rose seat will become a rose."},{"startTime":1346.041,"endTime":1349.958,"body":"And usually it takes longer than we want to."},{"startTime":1350.291,"endTime":1350.875,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1352.375,"endTime":1355.583,"body":"Using the sand tray, as I do at times with clients,"},{"startTime":1357.25,"endTime":1358.25,"body":"and thinking of it"},{"startTime":1358.25,"endTime":1359.291,"body":"as kind of a visual map"},{"startTime":1359.291,"endTime":1360.625,"body":"of what they're going through."},{"startTime":1360.625,"endTime":1362.625,"body":"You see sometimes a lot of disorganization."},{"startTime":1363.916,"endTime":1364.083,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1364.083,"endTime":1365.333,"body":"And then sometimes things"},{"startTime":1365.333,"endTime":1366.291,"body":"cohere a little bit"},{"startTime":1366.291,"endTime":1367.583,"body":"and there's disorganization."},{"startTime":1368.291,"endTime":1369.541,"body":"But then part of it is like, you know,"},{"startTime":1369.541,"endTime":1371.75,"body":"what new thing is maybe growing here,"},{"startTime":1371.75,"endTime":1374.458,"body":"what seed is maybe planted."},{"startTime":1374.458,"endTime":1375.833,"body":"Sometimes people take babies"},{"startTime":1375.833,"endTime":1377.041,"body":"and put them in the tray."},{"startTime":1377.041,"endTime":1377.25,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1377.25,"endTime":1380.208,"body":"As representative of something that's actually"},{"startTime":1380.208,"endTime":1384.083,"body":"our psyche's like working on new part of ourselves"},{"startTime":1384.083,"endTime":1385.666,"body":"kind of emerging in the process."},{"startTime":1386.958,"endTime":1388.041,"body":"That always seems hopeful"},{"startTime":1388.041,"endTime":1390.291,"body":"when I see a baby enter the tray."},{"startTime":1391.25,"endTime":1391.708,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1391.708,"endTime":1392.666,"body":"New life, Yeah."},{"startTime":1392.916,"endTime":1395.458,"body":"And there is something in that process, of course,"},{"startTime":1395.458,"endTime":1399.083,"body":"of surrendering, you know, giving up of on control."},{"startTime":1399.083,"endTime":1403.875,"body":"And we talked about identity before"},{"startTime":1403.875,"endTime":1406.75,"body":"because it is really letting go of your identity."},{"startTime":1407.291,"endTime":1409.958,"body":"Maybe before the tournament there was still"},{"startTime":1409.958,"endTime":1411.833,"body":"the dream that maybe this time"},{"startTime":1411.833,"endTime":1415.541,"body":"I'll be the player that also played a World cup final."},{"startTime":1416.833,"endTime":1419.666,"body":"And that identity is really or that idea"},{"startTime":1419.666,"endTime":1421.666,"body":"and that dream is really pulling you"},{"startTime":1421.666,"endTime":1423.0,"body":"in a certain direction."},{"startTime":1423.791,"endTime":1425.625,"body":"And you might have the age that"},{"startTime":1425.625,"endTime":1427.791,"body":"there are no more World Cups for you."},{"startTime":1427.791,"endTime":1429.75,"body":"And so it's not just losing the game,"},{"startTime":1429.75,"endTime":1433.25,"body":"but also a personal dream and a personal identity."},{"startTime":1433.25,"endTime":1436.416,"body":"You were the one that was in the pro,"},{"startTime":1436.416,"endTime":1437.708,"body":"or had this promise."},{"startTime":1438.416,"endTime":1440.0,"body":"So letting go of your identity"},{"startTime":1440.0,"endTime":1442.5,"body":"and really letting go of that control"},{"startTime":1442.5,"endTime":1444.583,"body":"is of course super challenging"},{"startTime":1444.583,"endTime":1445.791,"body":"because it sounds so nice."},{"startTime":1445.791,"endTime":1447.916,"body":"It's worth sitting here oh yeah,"},{"startTime":1447.916,"endTime":1449.458,"body":"you just let go of control,"},{"startTime":1449.458,"endTime":1451.708,"body":"and then you wait for something new to emerge."},{"startTime":1451.708,"endTime":1453.875,"body":"But that underworld is really dark"},{"startTime":1453.875,"endTime":1455.541,"body":"and you don't see where you're going."},{"startTime":1456.666,"endTime":1458.791,"body":"And still, and that's really"},{"startTime":1458.791,"endTime":1461.291,"body":"why mythology is so helpful still."},{"startTime":1461.291,"endTime":1465.291,"body":"You walk step by step, you continue."},{"startTime":1466.25,"endTime":1469.416,"body":"Yeah, there's some ritual or just repeating"},{"startTime":1469.416,"endTime":1470.583,"body":"or being in it."},{"startTime":1470.583,"endTime":1470.958,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1471.541,"endTime":1472.416,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1472.416,"endTime":1473.666,"body":"Take the next step."},{"startTime":1473.666,"endTime":1476.125,"body":"I think of athletes retiring from sports."},{"startTime":1476.125,"endTime":1479.125,"body":"Some an area I've been really interested in."},{"startTime":1479.125,"endTime":1479.458,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1479.458,"endTime":1480.666,"body":"And sometimes it's like"},{"startTime":1480.666,"endTime":1482.375,"body":"the confusion's just overwhelming."},{"startTime":1482.375,"endTime":1482.666,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1482.666,"endTime":1484.416,"body":"That's a underworld experience."},{"startTime":1484.416,"endTime":1485.125,"body":"Who am I?"},{"startTime":1485.125,"endTime":1486.166,"body":"What do I do?"},{"startTime":1486.166,"endTime":1488.708,"body":"Do I matter anymore to people?"},{"startTime":1489.833,"endTime":1491.083,"body":"What's my future look like?"},{"startTime":1491.083,"endTime":1491.708,"body":"All these things."},{"startTime":1491.708,"endTime":1492.083,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1492.083,"endTime":1495.125,"body":"And so one of the things that you're saying is just"},{"startTime":1495.125,"endTime":1496.958,"body":"okay, let's just piece by piece go"},{"startTime":1496.958,"endTime":1499.041,"body":"through this step by step,"},{"startTime":1499.041,"endTime":1500.083,"body":"allow space to explore"},{"startTime":1500.083,"endTime":1501.875,"body":"and work through some of these things."},{"startTime":1501.875,"endTime":1503.25,"body":"But what kind of."},{"startTime":1503.25,"endTime":1505.833,"body":"What kind of stability would kind of help"},{"startTime":1505.833,"endTime":1507.333,"body":"as we go through this process?"},{"startTime":1508.5,"endTime":1509.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1509.625,"endTime":1512.0,"body":"And of course you need others as well."},{"startTime":1512.75,"endTime":1514.5,"body":"The lovely thing about soccer"},{"startTime":1514.5,"endTime":1516.916,"body":"is that it's It's in happening in a team."},{"startTime":1518.125,"endTime":1519.958,"body":"And there are others as well."},{"startTime":1519.958,"endTime":1521.708,"body":"So you're not alone in the experience."},{"startTime":1523.291,"endTime":1525.958,"body":"But so I would also seek out"},{"startTime":1525.958,"endTime":1528.541,"body":"the companionship of the people in the team"},{"startTime":1528.541,"endTime":1530.083,"body":"rather than staying away."},{"startTime":1530.666,"endTime":1532.958,"body":"I don't want to think about soccer for a while,"},{"startTime":1532.958,"endTime":1535.041,"body":"which might be working as well."},{"startTime":1535.791,"endTime":1538.75,"body":"Being surrounded by other loved ones."},{"startTime":1539.416,"endTime":1541.458,"body":"But companionship of others"},{"startTime":1541.458,"endTime":1546.25,"body":"in that middle of the journey is really key."},{"startTime":1546.25,"endTime":1550.375,"body":"And I know, Machiel, that you've said that as well,"},{"startTime":1550.375,"endTime":1552.291,"body":"and I think in a poem,"},{"startTime":1552.291,"endTime":1556.125,"body":"that you do not do the underworld"},{"startTime":1556.125,"endTime":1559.041,"body":"on your own or the grieving on your own."},{"startTime":1559.041,"endTime":1560.0,"body":"Yes, yes."},{"startTime":1560.708,"endTime":1561.333,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1561.333,"endTime":1564.291,"body":"I, in one recent heartbreak,"},{"startTime":1564.291,"endTime":1567.125,"body":"I wrote a whole poetry journey of this"},{"startTime":1567.125,"endTime":1569.041,"body":"underworld experience."},{"startTime":1569.041,"endTime":1572.416,"body":"And so that this art can be a great response,"},{"startTime":1573.166,"endTime":1577.916,"body":"to staying with the slow unfolding of what happens"},{"startTime":1577.916,"endTime":1580.958,"body":"but also allowing the unfolding to happen because"},{"startTime":1580.958,"endTime":1584.041,"body":"it doesn't happen without your participation."},{"startTime":1585.458,"endTime":1588.583,"body":"in your participation is what allows nature"},{"startTime":1589.125,"endTime":1592.333,"body":"to do its unfolding."},{"startTime":1593.291,"endTime":1595.958,"body":"And so there's your own internal work"},{"startTime":1595.958,"endTime":1599.375,"body":"with the different figures that you will encounter."},{"startTime":1599.375,"endTime":1602.333,"body":"You'll encounter really important figures that"},{"startTime":1602.333,"endTime":1605.291,"body":"probably have lived there already for decades"},{"startTime":1605.291,"endTime":1608.875,"body":"and even your family system down the line."},{"startTime":1608.875,"endTime":1611.041,"body":"But it also reminds me that I worked with"},{"startTime":1611.041,"endTime":1614.083,"body":"Malidomasume, an African shaman,"},{"startTime":1614.083,"endTime":1618.125,"body":"and he shared that in his tribe when there's some,"},{"startTime":1618.125,"endTime":1620.333,"body":"someone has a big loss,"},{"startTime":1620.333,"endTime":1622.416,"body":"the tribe comes together,"},{"startTime":1622.416,"endTime":1626.0,"body":"people stop their work and they sit in a circle."},{"startTime":1626.0,"endTime":1628.083,"body":"And the person that has lost someone"},{"startTime":1628.083,"endTime":1631.166,"body":"or a big has lost someone can..."},{"startTime":1631.166,"endTime":1633.166,"body":"Can be in the middle and they can"},{"startTime":1633.166,"endTime":1636.416,"body":"just lay there and cry and be."},{"startTime":1636.416,"endTime":1638.5,"body":"And the rest just sits around it."},{"startTime":1639.791,"endTime":1645.208,"body":"And that gives space to the grief that comes."},{"startTime":1648.0,"endTime":1648.958,"body":"So, yeah."},{"startTime":1648.958,"endTime":1651.125,"body":"Grief is not something we do alone."},{"startTime":1653.125,"endTime":1654.166,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1654.166,"endTime":1655.291,"body":"And there's something about"},{"startTime":1655.291,"endTime":1656.666,"body":"other people being there."},{"startTime":1658.416,"endTime":1660.75,"body":"Think of the psychology term co regulation,"},{"startTime":1660.75,"endTime":1662.5,"body":"where if they..."},{"startTime":1662.5,"endTime":1664.166,"body":"They're there in some ways you can"},{"startTime":1664.166,"endTime":1666.25,"body":"let yourself go a little bit more."},{"startTime":1666.25,"endTime":1666.583,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1666.583,"endTime":1669.166,"body":"That's what we... happens in the counseling room,"},{"startTime":1670.333,"endTime":1672.125,"body":"happens in this example."},{"startTime":1672.75,"endTime":1676.208,"body":"And,I love this about, like, healing"},{"startTime":1676.208,"endTime":1677.666,"body":"and Jungian psychology, right?"},{"startTime":1677.666,"endTime":1678.5,"body":"There is an element of"},{"startTime":1678.5,"endTime":1680.291,"body":"kind of not being in control"},{"startTime":1680.291,"endTime":1682.958,"body":"and you need to kind of let go in some way"},{"startTime":1682.958,"endTime":1685.458,"body":"for the mystery of the healing to happen."},{"startTime":1686.041,"endTime":1688.125,"body":"And it's something very bodily based"},{"startTime":1688.125,"endTime":1691.083,"body":"that our bodies just kind of know how to do."},{"startTime":1691.791,"endTime":1692.125,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1692.125,"endTime":1692.541,"body":"If we're."},{"startTime":1692.916,"endTime":1694.583,"body":"If we set up the container, well,"},{"startTime":1694.583,"endTime":1696.416,"body":"our bodies can kind of do this thing."},{"startTime":1698.291,"endTime":1700.125,"body":"So it's really an amazing part of,"},{"startTime":1700.125,"endTime":1700.875,"body":"of our work."},{"startTime":1700.875,"endTime":1702.75,"body":"I feel honored to see when I see it."},{"startTime":1704.125,"endTime":1704.666,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1704.666,"endTime":1706.125,"body":"You and your psychology."},{"startTime":1706.125,"endTime":1709.541,"body":"There's so much around the ego self access,"},{"startTime":1709.541,"endTime":1712.0,"body":"which really is how the ego relates"},{"startTime":1712.0,"endTime":1714.375,"body":"to the part inside the psyche that"},{"startTime":1714.375,"endTime":1717.083,"body":"is experienced as the guiding center."},{"startTime":1717.083,"endTime":1718.916,"body":"So I often say, how do you"},{"startTime":1718.916,"endTime":1720.791,"body":"relate to the guide within?"},{"startTime":1720.791,"endTime":1723.791,"body":"And certainly when you're in that underworld journey,"},{"startTime":1723.791,"endTime":1726.666,"body":"you want to be attuned to the guide within"},{"startTime":1726.666,"endTime":1727.791,"body":"where you might,"},{"startTime":1727.791,"endTime":1731.541,"body":"where it might suggest or it might have a hint,"},{"startTime":1731.541,"endTime":1733.875,"body":"or a suggestion where to go,"},{"startTime":1733.875,"endTime":1735.541,"body":"and to find out about it."},{"startTime":1735.541,"endTime":1737.541,"body":"You could have a look at your dreams."},{"startTime":1737.541,"endTime":1742.083,"body":"Might there be clues there."},{"startTime":1742.083,"endTime":1748.333,"body":"Because the ego or the habitual I"},{"startTime":1748.708,"endTime":1752.166,"body":"will probably fall back on what it knows"},{"startTime":1752.166,"endTime":1755.083,"body":"and not surrender that easy"},{"startTime":1755.125,"endTime":1757.916,"body":"to see what new can emerge."},{"startTime":1757.916,"endTime":1759.041,"body":"This is something."},{"startTime":1759.791,"endTime":1761.375,"body":"Tell me if this rings true for you."},{"startTime":1761.375,"endTime":1762.458,"body":"But when you do it once,"},{"startTime":1762.458,"endTime":1764.291,"body":"you get a little bit of an experience of"},{"startTime":1764.291,"endTime":1767.041,"body":"oh, I kind of know how to do this,"},{"startTime":1767.041,"endTime":1767.75,"body":"and it's..."},{"startTime":1768.416,"endTime":1769.25,"body":"You could do it the,"},{"startTime":1769.25,"endTime":1769.916,"body":"the next time."},{"startTime":1769.916,"endTime":1770.875,"body":"I remember my first..."},{"startTime":1771.416,"endTime":1773.375,"body":"First big heartbreak, right?"},{"startTime":1773.375,"endTime":1776.166,"body":"And going through that, and then"},{"startTime":1776.166,"endTime":1777.583,"body":"I remember someone telling,"},{"startTime":1777.583,"endTime":1779.666,"body":"telling me, an older man being"},{"startTime":1779.666,"endTime":1781.541,"body":"oh, kind of welcome to the tribe."},{"startTime":1781.541,"endTime":1782.333,"body":"Like, everyone gets it."},{"startTime":1782.333,"endTime":1784.375,"body":"It's hard, you know and it's like \"Hah\","},{"startTime":1784.375,"endTime":1786.083,"body":"And then they kind of provided"},{"startTime":1786.083,"endTime":1788.833,"body":"some sort of template for myself with other losses"},{"startTime":1788.833,"endTime":1791.5,"body":"on how to kind of work through them in some way."},{"startTime":1792.833,"endTime":1793.166,"body":"Differences."},{"startTime":1793.166,"endTime":1795.541,"body":"What you’re saying there is really key."},{"startTime":1795.541,"endTime":1798.166,"body":"The acknowledgment that it's a universal"},{"startTime":1798.166,"endTime":1799.625,"body":"and human experience"},{"startTime":1799.625,"endTime":1801.125,"body":"that you're not on your own"},{"startTime":1801.125,"endTime":1803.125,"body":"because somehow otherwise you feel like,"},{"startTime":1803.125,"endTime":1804.166,"body":"what did I do wrong?"},{"startTime":1804.166,"endTime":1806.5,"body":"Or what should I have done better?"},{"startTime":1807.25,"endTime":1810.25,"body":"There is some element of taking it too personal,"},{"startTime":1811.083,"endTime":1813.666,"body":"while we all have to deal with losses"},{"startTime":1813.666,"endTime":1815.791,"body":"and loss of dreams"},{"startTime":1815.791,"endTime":1819.416,"body":"and loss of people that we love."},{"startTime":1820.75,"endTime":1821.166,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1821.166,"endTime":1822.083,"body":"And that's where the..."},{"startTime":1822.083,"endTime":1825.708,"body":"The universal stories as mythologies come in."},{"startTime":1825.708,"endTime":1828.041,"body":"They're not literal stories."},{"startTime":1828.041,"endTime":1829.416,"body":"They're stories about"},{"startTime":1829.416,"endTime":1832.833,"body":"psychological journeys that people are on."},{"startTime":1832.833,"endTime":1834.791,"body":"And there's the psychological journey"},{"startTime":1834.791,"endTime":1838.375,"body":"of going into Hades and what happens there."},{"startTime":1839.083,"endTime":1842.291,"body":"Or any of these mythologies"},{"startTime":1842.291,"endTime":1845.416,"body":"that show these deep structures in us"},{"startTime":1845.416,"endTime":1849.916,"body":"and they connect us to the larger family of humanity"},{"startTime":1849.916,"endTime":1852.041,"body":"where we are not alone."},{"startTime":1853.875,"endTime":1854.25,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1854.25,"endTime":1856.666,"body":"This is kind of the gold on the other side."},{"startTime":1856.666,"endTime":1857.083,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1859.666,"endTime":1862.875,"body":"One is more wisdom, more humanity."},{"startTime":1862.875,"endTime":1864.166,"body":"I feel like there's people"},{"startTime":1864.166,"endTime":1866.25,"body":"who've gone through different struggles"},{"startTime":1866.25,"endTime":1867.416,"body":"and healed from them."},{"startTime":1867.416,"endTime":1869.708,"body":"Well, have a lot to offer our culture."},{"startTime":1870.583,"endTime":1870.75,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1870.75,"endTime":1873.083,"body":"In terms of wisdom and stability"},{"startTime":1873.083,"endTime":1877.125,"body":"and a lot of patience or emotional qualities."},{"startTime":1878.416,"endTime":1878.791,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1878.791,"endTime":1881.416,"body":"How do you guys see that gold on the other end"},{"startTime":1881.416,"endTime":1883.375,"body":"of going through this journey?"},{"startTime":1884.25,"endTime":1887.458,"body":"Yeah, there's a lot of gold."},{"startTime":1887.458,"endTime":1891.041,"body":"And you can also see it if people don't do it,"},{"startTime":1891.833,"endTime":1895.041,"body":"they don't become a good teammate or as a coach."},{"startTime":1895.666,"endTime":1898.458,"body":"If a coach doesn't have the real empathy"},{"startTime":1898.458,"endTime":1901.083,"body":"that comes from underworld journeys,"},{"startTime":1901.083,"endTime":1903.0,"body":"they cannot truly relate,"},{"startTime":1903.0,"endTime":1907.708,"body":"and they will have their own survival techniques,"},{"startTime":1907.708,"endTime":1909.5,"body":"mapped over others."},{"startTime":1910.541,"endTime":1917.0,"body":"And so there are, some, some coaches that have not,"},{"startTime":1917.0,"endTime":1918.75,"body":"They don't perform well because they..."},{"startTime":1918.75,"endTime":1920.416,"body":"They haven't done their underworld"},{"startTime":1920.416,"endTime":1921.958,"body":"journey in a healthy way."},{"startTime":1922.833,"endTime":1925.0,"body":"Even if they might have the talent,"},{"startTime":1925.708,"endTime":1927.416,"body":"It doesn't go there."},{"startTime":1929.708,"endTime":1934.125,"body":"Yeah, I think, that is very, very, very true."},{"startTime":1935.0,"endTime":1936.541,"body":"You know, like in..."},{"startTime":1936.541,"endTime":1938.791,"body":"when someone has a loss"},{"startTime":1938.791,"endTime":1940.916,"body":"or a death in a family,"},{"startTime":1940.916,"endTime":1944.208,"body":"you would always respond with the empathy."},{"startTime":1944.208,"endTime":1946.416,"body":"But somehow, because it's soccer,"},{"startTime":1946.416,"endTime":1948.75,"body":"something gets rationalized, which is really"},{"startTime":1948.75,"endTime":1952.291,"body":"a defense mechanism, oh, this is your profession."},{"startTime":1952.291,"endTime":1953.458,"body":"Or, it's just."},{"startTime":1953.458,"endTime":1955.916,"body":"But it's just a game about the ball."},{"startTime":1955.916,"endTime":1958.458,"body":"And then sort of that gets as a..."},{"startTime":1959.0,"endTime":1964.166,"body":"Sometimes seen as a legitimate way of being critical"},{"startTime":1964.166,"endTime":1966.166,"body":"and being harsh on someone"},{"startTime":1966.166,"endTime":1969.0,"body":"rather than saying something like that person said to you,"},{"startTime":1969.0,"endTime":1972.625,"body":"John, welcome to you, the human family."},{"startTime":1973.708,"endTime":1975.666,"body":"Wouldn't that be a nice response"},{"startTime":1975.666,"endTime":1978.916,"body":"if we had it towards soccer players as well?"},{"startTime":1978.916,"endTime":1980.541,"body":"Welcome to the human family."},{"startTime":1980.541,"endTime":1983.958,"body":"And gee, that was really loss of a dream."},{"startTime":1983.958,"endTime":1984.791,"body":"I had it too."},{"startTime":1984.791,"endTime":1985.875,"body":"I felt it too."},{"startTime":1987.416,"endTime":1987.791,"body":"And."},{"startTime":1992.125,"endTime":1993.416,"body":"We make space for it."},{"startTime":1993.416,"endTime":1994.0,"body":"You, it's."},{"startTime":1994.0,"endTime":1996.75,"body":"It's such a psychological term to make space for it,"},{"startTime":1996.75,"endTime":1997.208,"body":"but it..."},{"startTime":1997.208,"endTime":2000.125,"body":"It means that we really don't force something"},{"startTime":2000.125,"endTime":2004.291,"body":"too quickly on someone else or on ourselves."},{"startTime":2005.0,"endTime":2007.5,"body":"There's a tension between this rhythm,"},{"startTime":2008.125,"endTime":2011.041,"body":"depth psychology and sports psychology, which, right,"},{"startTime":2011.041,"endTime":2014.041,"body":"is focused on helping often athletes,"},{"startTime":2014.041,"endTime":2016.583,"body":"helping them as people, but with the."},{"startTime":2016.583,"endTime":2017.791,"body":"With the added idea of like"},{"startTime":2017.791,"endTime":2019.333,"body":"helping them as people"},{"startTime":2019.333,"endTime":2021.666,"body":"and helping them do their job well."},{"startTime":2021.708,"endTime":2022.0,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2022.0,"endTime":2023.083,"body":"And so there's a speed."},{"startTime":2023.083,"endTime":2024.583,"body":"There's a speed to it where,"},{"startTime":2027.5,"endTime":2030.25,"body":"You're just trying to kind of get back close"},{"startTime":2030.25,"endTime":2032.583,"body":"and some things don't, don't take as much time."},{"startTime":2033.625,"endTime":2036.083,"body":"But one thing I've kind of been thinking"},{"startTime":2036.083,"endTime":2038.583,"body":"about lately is perspective shift."},{"startTime":2039.708,"endTime":2042.791,"body":"I know with Baligun getting a red card"},{"startTime":2042.791,"endTime":2044.791,"body":"in that game and then afterwards"},{"startTime":2045.833,"endTime":2047.458,"body":"reading through the media,"},{"startTime":2047.458,"endTime":2050.458,"body":"the media was really kind of down."},{"startTime":2050.458,"endTime":2051.583,"body":"Oh, next game's going to be"},{"startTime":2051.583,"endTime":2053.541,"body":"really hard without our striker."},{"startTime":2053.541,"endTime":2053.875,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2053.875,"endTime":2056.25,"body":"And if the fans were the team,"},{"startTime":2056.25,"endTime":2059.0,"body":"as a sports psychologist I'd be thinking, yeah,"},{"startTime":2059.0,"endTime":2059.833,"body":"acknowledge the pain."},{"startTime":2059.833,"endTime":2063.208,"body":"But then at some point a perspective shift"},{"startTime":2063.208,"endTime":2065.791,"body":"needs to happen that's better for your performance."},{"startTime":2065.791,"endTime":2066.5,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2066.5,"endTime":2069.25,"body":"Well what, what do you think would actually"},{"startTime":2069.25,"endTime":2070.5,"body":"help you win the next game?"},{"startTime":2070.5,"endTime":2071.458,"body":"Do you think you have a chance?"},{"startTime":2071.458,"endTime":2073.375,"body":"What factors are going your way?"},{"startTime":2073.375,"endTime":2075.375,"body":"You know, some perspective shift that just brings"},{"startTime":2075.375,"endTime":2077.208,"body":"a little bit of that life and hope"},{"startTime":2077.208,"endTime":2080.291,"body":"and helps people get into a state to perform."},{"startTime":2082.5,"endTime":2082.958,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2082.958,"endTime":2085.0,"body":"So there is a tension between how you"},{"startTime":2085.583,"endTime":2087.125,"body":"how much do we let people"},{"startTime":2087.125,"endTime":2088.833,"body":"go through this journey and facilitate"},{"startTime":2088.833,"endTime":2090.166,"body":"and how much you try to get them back"},{"startTime":2090.166,"endTime":2090.958,"body":"to their performance."},{"startTime":2092.166,"endTime":2095.208,"body":"Well, they don't have to completely live on its own."},{"startTime":2095.208,"endTime":2096.583,"body":"You can, you can."},{"startTime":2096.583,"endTime":2098.25,"body":"The deeper current is the,"},{"startTime":2098.25,"endTime":2100.833,"body":"is the depth psychological current."},{"startTime":2100.833,"endTime":2103.25,"body":"And if you don't live that current,"},{"startTime":2103.25,"endTime":2105.75,"body":"the upper life is never gonna flourish"},{"startTime":2105.75,"endTime":2107.166,"body":"to its full potential."},{"startTime":2107.166,"endTime":2109.125,"body":"Just like striving for gold,"},{"startTime":2109.125,"endTime":2111.958,"body":"if you aim for the wrong, for the wrong gold,"},{"startTime":2112.833,"endTime":2115.291,"body":"it's gonna hurt you even if you have some success."},{"startTime":2116.333,"endTime":2120.5,"body":"And the reality is that you,"},{"startTime":2120.5,"endTime":2123.458,"body":"you can't write poetry"},{"startTime":2123.458,"endTime":2125.875,"body":"for the next week if you play at the tournament."},{"startTime":2126.666,"endTime":2128.333,"body":"And so you have,"},{"startTime":2128.333,"endTime":2131.291,"body":"you spent some time in the underworld."},{"startTime":2131.958,"endTime":2135.25,"body":"And then you go in that example you just gave to"},{"startTime":2135.875,"endTime":2138.25,"body":"Johan Cruyff's suggestion as"},{"startTime":2138.25,"endTime":2140.666,"body":"every disadvantage has an advantage."},{"startTime":2141.25,"endTime":2143.0,"body":"And what would be the advantage"},{"startTime":2143.0,"endTime":2144.5,"body":"of this situation be."},{"startTime":2144.5,"endTime":2146.583,"body":"And then you come with a new strategy"},{"startTime":2146.583,"endTime":2148.958,"body":"where you work."},{"startTime":2148.958,"endTime":2152.291,"body":"So they're not mutually exclusive yet."},{"startTime":2153.25,"endTime":2157.0,"body":"They must walk hand in hand for optimal flourishing."},{"startTime":2161.0,"endTime":2161.458,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2161.458,"endTime":2164.625,"body":"So there are really parallel processes"},{"startTime":2164.625,"endTime":2168.625,"body":"that are taking place simultaneously"},{"startTime":2171.25,"endTime":2173.75,"body":"or not or isn't that what you meant?"},{"startTime":2174.916,"endTime":2176.416,"body":"No, exactly."},{"startTime":2176.416,"endTime":2179.458,"body":"They you have the deeper process"},{"startTime":2179.458,"endTime":2185.0,"body":"and this team needs to play without their favorite striker."},{"startTime":2185.0,"endTime":2189.291,"body":"So how are they not going to be down"},{"startTime":2189.291,"endTime":2191.25,"body":"about not having the striker"},{"startTime":2191.25,"endTime":2193.166,"body":"but get themselves back in"},{"startTime":2193.166,"endTime":2195.125,"body":"and in the right self belief"},{"startTime":2195.875,"endTime":2199.875,"body":"that they can play a great game."},{"startTime":2200.583,"endTime":2204.833,"body":"And what advantages does this give to them now?"},{"startTime":2205.541,"endTime":2209.0,"body":"They have, can form a different, formation"},{"startTime":2209.0,"endTime":2213.625,"body":"and it can optimize different qualities that might be helpful"},{"startTime":2213.625,"endTime":2216.625,"body":"with playing the next opponent."},{"startTime":2216.625,"endTime":2219.125,"body":"And so they have to think different."},{"startTime":2222.25,"endTime":2222.708,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2222.708,"endTime":2224.416,"body":"What do advise them to do, John?"},{"startTime":2225.541,"endTime":2226.0,"body":"The team."},{"startTime":2226.0,"endTime":2226.666,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":2226.666,"endTime":2227.791,"body":"As we're talking about this"},{"startTime":2227.791,"endTime":2229.833,"body":"is kind of what I'd put it as a"},{"startTime":2229.833,"endTime":2233.0,"body":"kind of short term setback where it's"},{"startTime":2233.0,"endTime":2235.791,"body":"I don't think you're going to do."},{"startTime":2235.791,"endTime":2238.083,"body":"You know, it's not a heartbreak in the same way"},{"startTime":2238.083,"endTime":2239.541,"body":"where you're doing deep processing."},{"startTime":2241.708,"endTime":2243.416,"body":"But yeah, invite them to feel"},{"startTime":2243.416,"endTime":2244.708,"body":"the feelings, acknowledge it."},{"startTime":2244.708,"endTime":2245.25,"body":"It sucks."},{"startTime":2245.25,"endTime":2246.208,"body":"It makes me feel this way."},{"startTime":2246.208,"endTime":2246.708,"body":"I'm worried about it."},{"startTime":2246.708,"endTime":2247.541,"body":"It was unfair."},{"startTime":2249.916,"endTime":2250.708,"body":"And then."},{"startTime":2250.708,"endTime":2251.083,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2251.083,"endTime":2253.291,"body":"Not, hey, look on the bright side."},{"startTime":2253.291,"endTime":2254.333,"body":"I'm not saying that."},{"startTime":2254.333,"endTime":2255.041,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2255.041,"endTime":2257.125,"body":"It's not a forced, like telling someone"},{"startTime":2257.125,"endTime":2258.041,"body":"to look on the bright side,"},{"startTime":2258.041,"endTime":2260.333,"body":"but it's an invitation to a different perspective."},{"startTime":2260.333,"endTime":2261.041,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2261.041,"endTime":2261.875,"body":"What do you think?"},{"startTime":2261.875,"endTime":2264.416,"body":"We got this game coming up now."},{"startTime":2264.416,"endTime":2265.333,"body":"What do you,"},{"startTime":2265.333,"endTime":2267.333,"body":"what do you think we actually have going for us?"},{"startTime":2267.333,"endTime":2268.291,"body":"Do you have any ideas?"},{"startTime":2268.291,"endTime":2270.791,"body":"And kind of like a brainstorming and often like"},{"startTime":2270.791,"endTime":2272.791,"body":"with that comes a little bit of a hope."},{"startTime":2272.791,"endTime":2273.333,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2273.333,"endTime":2274.0,"body":"Oh, you know what?"},{"startTime":2274.708,"endTime":2276.25,"body":"We've been doing pretty good in general."},{"startTime":2276.958,"endTime":2277.833,"body":"Our team's working together."},{"startTime":2277.833,"endTime":2279.083,"body":"We have one players out."},{"startTime":2279.083,"endTime":2281.333,"body":"We have, 20 players who are fit,"},{"startTime":2281.333,"endTime":2282.875,"body":"like all these kind of positive things."},{"startTime":2282.875,"endTime":2285.0,"body":"And that kind of infuses you a little bit more"},{"startTime":2285.0,"endTime":2287.5,"body":"with the optimistic energy"},{"startTime":2287.5,"endTime":2290.458,"body":"that you want to have going into performances."},{"startTime":2290.458,"endTime":2292.458,"body":"Well, next opponent is"},{"startTime":2292.833,"endTime":2297.333,"body":"not the strongest one from the tournament."},{"startTime":2297.333,"endTime":2300.708,"body":"So, you're not"},{"startTime":2300.708,"endTime":2303.0,"body":"US is not facing France"},{"startTime":2304.708,"endTime":2305.208,"body":"Another."},{"startTime":2305.208,"endTime":2305.75,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2307.541,"endTime":2308.791,"body":"Another way to be positive."},{"startTime":2309.541,"endTime":2312.458,"body":"So I think there's something around that"},{"startTime":2313.833,"endTime":2317.25,"body":"journey and there, of course, in that depth,"},{"startTime":2317.25,"endTime":2320.708,"body":"there's also some question to ask yourself,"},{"startTime":2320.708,"endTime":2323.291,"body":"to feel a little bit of space"},{"startTime":2323.291,"endTime":2327.541,"body":"or to get a new perspective that is not all going down."},{"startTime":2327.541,"endTime":2329.75,"body":"And one of the typical Jungian questions,"},{"startTime":2329.75,"endTime":2332.708,"body":"of course, is what am I invited"},{"startTime":2332.708,"endTime":2335.291,"body":"or who am I invited to become"},{"startTime":2335.291,"endTime":2336.833,"body":"through this experience"},{"startTime":2337.5,"endTime":2339.75,"body":"or maybe even because of this experience?"},{"startTime":2341.0,"endTime":2343.0,"body":"What am I invited to develop?"},{"startTime":2344.083,"endTime":2347.958,"body":"How can I mature as a result of this experience."},{"startTime":2349.083,"endTime":2352.541,"body":"So in relation to soccer, it could be something"},{"startTime":2352.541,"endTime":2357.041,"body":"that the younger people who are experiencing this"},{"startTime":2357.041,"endTime":2359.833,"body":"and then in four years there's another tournament,"},{"startTime":2359.833,"endTime":2362.916,"body":"another World cup, they come with this experience"},{"startTime":2362.916,"endTime":2365.791,"body":"of loss and they can teach the others, again."},{"startTime":2365.791,"endTime":2369.083,"body":"And there is, there is kind of resilience"},{"startTime":2369.083,"endTime":2372.166,"body":"and not resilience in the typical way that it's"},{"startTime":2372.166,"endTime":2374.666,"body":"thought of like, oh, you bounce back,"},{"startTime":2374.666,"endTime":2379.625,"body":"but really renewal, the transformative resilience."},{"startTime":2379.625,"endTime":2380.125,"body":"I'm not sure if you..."},{"startTime":2380.125,"endTime":2382.125,"body":"Yeah, you bounce through."},{"startTime":2382.125,"endTime":2382.833,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2384.833,"endTime":2386.291,"body":"Yeah, I love that."},{"startTime":2386.291,"endTime":2390.791,"body":"And I think it speaks to the hope in soccer"},{"startTime":2390.791,"endTime":2393.041,"body":"as a place that's helping raise people."},{"startTime":2393.708,"endTime":2394.041,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2394.041,"endTime":2395.916,"body":"Helping them learn about life and community."},{"startTime":2397.375,"endTime":2399.541,"body":"Like I said, if it's done well with a good coach,"},{"startTime":2399.541,"endTime":2401.708,"body":"it's like just enormously impactful"},{"startTime":2401.708,"endTime":2402.666,"body":"for people's lives,"},{"startTime":2403.75,"endTime":2406.5,"body":"to be supported in these experiences."},{"startTime":2406.833,"endTime":2410.208,"body":"And I think reporters can do something important"},{"startTime":2410.208,"endTime":2414.166,"body":"because they're really there in first hand."},{"startTime":2414.166,"endTime":2416.25,"body":"They can help the players, but they can,"},{"startTime":2416.25,"endTime":2418.875,"body":"can also work, of course,"},{"startTime":2418.875,"endTime":2420.916,"body":"need to work on themselves,"},{"startTime":2420.916,"endTime":2423.458,"body":"but also they're talking to people"},{"startTime":2423.458,"endTime":2425.166,"body":"and supporters at home."},{"startTime":2425.166,"endTime":2427.458,"body":"So we're in collective grief."},{"startTime":2427.458,"endTime":2431.25,"body":"And ideally everyone takes their own share."},{"startTime":2431.25,"endTime":2434.0,"body":"Not like, oh, this is yours and I'll,"},{"startTime":2434.0,"endTime":2436.375,"body":"I'll do mine, but more if,"},{"startTime":2436.375,"endTime":2438.541,"body":"if we become better at this,"},{"startTime":2438.541,"endTime":2440.25,"body":"wouldn't that be great?"},{"startTime":2441.833,"endTime":2444.625,"body":"I love how this has such a passion for you."},{"startTime":2444.625,"endTime":2445.25,"body":"I love this."},{"startTime":2445.25,"endTime":2447.333,"body":"This is a thing for you."},{"startTime":2447.916,"endTime":2448.375,"body":"It is."},{"startTime":2448.375,"endTime":2449.5,"body":"I hope you could follow it."},{"startTime":2449.5,"endTime":2450.375,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2450.375,"endTime":2450.958,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2451.75,"endTime":2452.25,"body":"Nice."},{"startTime":2453.125,"endTime":2456.291,"body":"Well, I think we've covered a lot of territory"},{"startTime":2456.875,"endTime":2459.0,"body":"and I wonder if there's any"},{"startTime":2459.0,"endTime":2463.583,"body":"final thoughts on dealing with loss."},{"startTime":2463.583,"endTime":2467.083,"body":"Of course, we can talk for ages about it."},{"startTime":2467.083,"endTime":2469.208,"body":"You have a great book on it,"},{"startTime":2469.208,"endTime":2470.833,"body":"Akka-Jeanne, in Dutch,"},{"startTime":2470.833,"endTime":2472.833,"body":"Heartbreak, Broken Heart, the"},{"startTime":2472.833,"endTime":2474.541,"body":"Psychologie van een Gebroken Hart"},{"startTime":2474.541,"endTime":2476.375,"body":"or of course on Jung platform."},{"startTime":2477.083,"endTime":2481.458,"body":"So, that's a great place for people to move to."},{"startTime":2481.458,"endTime":2486.75,"body":"But any final thoughts, Akke-Jeanne or John,"},{"startTime":2489.833,"endTime":2492.0,"body":"for me, I'd say, sometimes you gotta"},{"startTime":2492.0,"endTime":2494.041,"body":"let it go and just go to the next thing."},{"startTime":2494.041,"endTime":2496.625,"body":"There's... sport is great for showing us"},{"startTime":2496.625,"endTime":2498.208,"body":"that and the value of that."},{"startTime":2498.208,"endTime":2498.875,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2498.875,"endTime":2500.0,"body":"Don't take it so personal."},{"startTime":2500.0,"endTime":2501.333,"body":"All right, what's next for me?"},{"startTime":2502.375,"endTime":2504.708,"body":"Other times that strategy is just really"},{"startTime":2504.708,"endTime":2505.833,"body":"gonna get in your way."},{"startTime":2505.833,"endTime":2510.666,"body":"And it would behoove you to take some time with it,"},{"startTime":2510.666,"endTime":2512.083,"body":"open up, kind of let yourself go"},{"startTime":2512.083,"endTime":2514.75,"body":"through the process and come out the other end."},{"startTime":2517.0,"endTime":2517.458,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2518.125,"endTime":2521.25,"body":"And probably here, the hints of the psyche,"},{"startTime":2521.916,"endTime":2525.708,"body":"would be nice clues, if your dreams"},{"startTime":2525.708,"endTime":2528.958,"body":"or your experiences are pointing"},{"startTime":2528.958,"endTime":2533.25,"body":"into a certain direction, you follow that direction."},{"startTime":2533.25,"endTime":2535.458,"body":"So if you have a lot of dreams"},{"startTime":2535.458,"endTime":2537.291,"body":"in which grief comes up,"},{"startTime":2537.291,"endTime":2540.125,"body":"that might be an indication of the psyche"},{"startTime":2540.125,"endTime":2542.333,"body":"that wants you to pay attention to grief."},{"startTime":2543.0,"endTime":2546.375,"body":"So it's of course not a clear cut answer for everyone."},{"startTime":2546.375,"endTime":2549.708,"body":"Every psyche has their own suggestions."},{"startTime":2550.916,"endTime":2551.375,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2551.375,"endTime":2553.458,"body":"And that these processes are not."},{"startTime":2553.458,"endTime":2556.833,"body":"Oh, I now need to live for two months in this underworld."},{"startTime":2556.833,"endTime":2559.541,"body":"I'm going to spend two minutes or five minutes."},{"startTime":2559.541,"endTime":2561.5,"body":"You can even put your timer on it"},{"startTime":2561.5,"endTime":2563.5,"body":"and I'm just going to be with it."},{"startTime":2563.5,"endTime":2565.5,"body":"And then in after five minutes,"},{"startTime":2565.5,"endTime":2571.375,"body":"I have to work so I have to set myself through it."},{"startTime":2571.375,"endTime":2573.458,"body":"But I have these little pockets."},{"startTime":2573.458,"endTime":2576.0,"body":"These little pockets are very medicinal"},{"startTime":2576.0,"endTime":2580.416,"body":"so people don't think I'm living there permanently."},{"startTime":2580.416,"endTime":2584.75,"body":"You live there temporarily in pocket time"},{"startTime":2585.791,"endTime":2591.125,"body":"and we wish everyone all kinds of"},{"startTime":2591.125,"endTime":2594.916,"body":"great times ahead and a lot of fun with the games"},{"startTime":2594.916,"endTime":2598.083,"body":"and time for your own heart when it needs it."}]}