From Air Force Acquisitions to Airline Pilot: TC’s Career Change, Flight Training Lessons & Leadership

TC shares how he went from a military-brat upbringing and a failed plan to play football into Air Force ROTC at UTSA, ultimately becoming an acquisitions officer—work he describes as broad “cradle to grave” program management with lots of paperwork, meetings, and long timelines. Around the 10-year mark and facing career-pressure options he didn’t want, he began flight training as a hobby in Los Angeles, researched the airline shortage, and chose to separate in 2019 with his wife’s support despite some family resistance. He explains funding flight training using the GI Bill through a school with San Antonio affiliates, joining the reserves, and navigating COVID-era training. TC details key lessons—begin with the end in mind, expect a non-linear path, show up prepared, and ask questions—plus setbacks during instrument training, growth as a flight instructor, and success in a demanding regional airline training pipeline. Now a reservist and airline first officer, he describes what he loves about the job, what’s still “work,” how military leadership and initiative translate to the cockpit, and why representation in aviation matters.

00:00 Meet TC and Background
01:07 ROTC Into the Air Force
01:55 Choosing Acquisitions
03:35 What Acquisitions Really Is
05:12 Special Ops Simulator Project
06:20 Who Thrives in Acquisitions
07:43 Ten Year Crossroads
09:44 Discovering the Pilot Path
11:32 Funding the Career Change
15:08 Family Support and Comfort Trap
18:21 Flight Training Lessons
22:52 Instrument Rating Reality Check
25:19 Checkride Wake-Up Call
26:10 Learning to Stay Calm
28:08 Why Instructing Rocks
29:27 From Bitter to Happy
32:05 Cadet Program Strategy
34:38 Regional Training Mindset
38:09 Airline Pilot Reality
40:39 Military Lessons in the Cockpit
46:25 Representation Matters
47:47 Advice and Wrap-Up

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

You know, you're a teenage boy going up against your dad, you think you know everything. And his comment, and um, this is verbatim was over my dead effing body. And uh a lot of my instructors and the flight school owners, oh, you trying to be a pilot? Airline shortage, airline shortage, airline shortage, airline. I'm hearing those two words, airline shortage. I don't know what you're talking about. But again, you know, I'm I'm coming up on that decision point, so I start looking into what is this airline shortage thing? It turns out it's it was a real thing. And uh the airlines were hiring like crazy, and a lot of movement was happening. That was probably the hardest decision. Like, do I take from my kids for me to go pursue this? That may not work out. You know, that's that's a hard one.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

What's going on, TC? It's uh Lee and TC out here. Just want to talk to you about who you are, where you are, and how you got here.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Sure. Uh, well, yeah, I was uh military brat, mom and dad, Air Force enlisted, retired, and uh my whole plan was to be a football player. That was plan A. You could not have told me anything different uh from middle school up till about my junior year of high school. That was the time frame. I didn't grow the way I was supposed to. I wasn't good enough, so I needed a plan B. Luckily, I had uh really good grades and I was able to get into college over UTSA. My dad, Tony Bivens, said, Hey, there's this thing called uh Air Force ROTC. You should look into it. And I told him I was gonna enlist just to get out of his house. You know, you're a teenage boy going up against your dad. You think you know everything. And his comment, and uh this is verbatim, was over my dead effing body.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

So so that's how your career in the Air Force started, was you joined ROTC because your dad said ain't nowhere you're about to enlist, you about to go and go commission, go ROTC.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Correct. That is that was my only option for entering the Air Force, man.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

So right now you're still in the Air Force, you're a reservist in the Air Force, yes, and you're an airline pilot.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

I am an airline pilot, first officer, yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

All right, that's what's up. So, and you got a family?

SPEAKER_01 2:28

I have a wife, been married 15 years, two kids. I'm doing the dad life as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

All right, balancing it all. Okay, so ROTC, your dad tells you this is the only way you're gonna get in the Air Force, so this is what you do. So I was an ROTC with you. I remember those things. Of ROTC. You became an acquisitions officer. How and why did you become an acquisitions officer?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

So the way I joined was the way I got my career field, Tony Bennett. I joined the Air Force with no clue what I wanted to do. Uh, my dad always told me, you got to do four years somewhere and it ain't gonna be here. So I was fortunate enough to get a scholarship in ROTC. Whether I was able to maintain that or not is for another day. But I got my foot in the door with the scholarship. And when it came time to pick a job, his whole purpose was to pick a job where when you get out, you could transfer the skills. So for him, it was contracting or acquisitions. And because I didn't know any better, sounded good to me.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

So when I got my dream sheet, I filled it all out. Contracting was number one, acquisitions was number two, I got my number two choice.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

I mean, you think about it, it's a lot of a lot of young kids graduate from high school, have no idea what they want to do. Ain't there nothing in their life? Somebody got to point them in the right direction.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

And so, not that it was a bad choice or a bad career, you had had a good career, but being on this side of the fence as a father now, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Like I totally get what he was trying to do. I don't blame him. And then looking at me being an idiot, you know, 19 to 22 year old, and that like I had no clue what I was gonna do. Like you said, so hey, since you don't know what you're gonna do, let me give you some guidance.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Let me point you in the right direction.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

And it wasn't the it wasn't the wrong idea coming from him, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Okay, so acquisitions, just overview of what your career was like as an acquisitions officer in the Air Force. As more for, you know, some people like it, some people love it, some people hate it, some people it's a job. You did it for quite some time. So just big picture, like what you got from it.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

So, one of the things I heard about acquisitions shortly after joining acquis or the active duty forces, no one in ROTC could help me shed or could shed light on what as to what acquisitions was, because most people never heard of it. It's a really small career field, and it's like I don't really know anyone that does that, but you guys work with civilians, like that's kind of your deal. So I get to uh air and space basic course, lieutenant prep school, or whatever you want to call it, and we had an acquisitions officer instructor there, and I tried to ask her about it, and she said, Well, I'm getting out of that career field because I wanted to join the military. She left it at that. So I show up, and it's basically it's a very broad career field, and we we we talk about it in terms of cradle to grave. So the inception of a of a system of a program all the way through uh decommissioning of the program. So planes, trains, bombs, uh everything. We we cover that whole gamut. And I was pretty fortunate to serve in some pretty cool roles. So my first role I got to do, I got to work with Air Force Special Forces, so tactical, uh tactical air control party guys, and uh some combat controllers. We ended up having some JTACs from other services come in and help us out with what we were doing.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Anything you could talk about?

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yeah, it was uh it was a training rehearsal simulator for them. So I, you know, I won't go into the the nerd stuff about what they do, but yeah, one of their primary functions is ground guys talking to air force or uh air assets to put bombs on target. They have a currency to maintain, like we do as pilots. And a lot of that involves them going out to a range, coordinating with aircraft assets. So time, money, it's a it could be a hassle.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

So the per the purpose of this simulator was to basically bring that training in-house. It's a virtual, a virtual reality thing where they can then do everything they need to do in a virtual capacity, maintaining currency without having to go out to the range.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

So so like a simulator, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

It was a simulator. It was a like a almost like a full dome simulator. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

So what type of people enjoy being in acquisitions? Like, what would be a type of person that would want to go in acquisitions and be in that that type of job? That's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

And I don't I don't mean this to be like a bad thing. I'm I'm not trying to like you know, damn or it was not for me. I will say that. Like, I I'm a little bit more outgoing, go-getter, touching a mission directly. The one of the things about acquisitions that's kind of a a bummer is that some of these programs you might never see the beginning through the end. Most of them you won't. Um, when I showed up to Herbert on my first assignment, that program was well underway. I we were actually on the operational test and development side of it. So it was close to getting fielded. But we got to see the cool stuff of it. But that program, like I said, is 10, 15 years before. And it's a lot of paperwork, it's a lot of meetings, it's a lot of uh PowerPoint briefings, it's a lot of interfacing with Congress. So, you know, that's fun. It's it's a different side of it that I got to be on the tail end of a lot of other people's hard work.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Gotcha. So you've also probably been on the beginning side of it too, where you don't see none of that.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Going into my next assignment at Eglink.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

Right. So as exciting as that sounds for you, at what point did you decide you wanted to do something different?

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Sure. Uh, as you know, everybody in the military, when you come up on that halfway point, that the 10-year marker is like, do I stay, do I go?

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

I will tell you, I kind of knew when I showed up to my first assignment that this is not what I thought it was gonna be. Yeah, pretty quickly I knew that. The advice of my parents, both of them retired, military, said, Hey, you don't even know the job yet. Sit down, shut up, learn the job. Fair. Fair. I I can't argue that. Right. On the flip side, I was also not preparing to get out. So my four-year point comes up. My my initial commitment to the military comes up and blow right past it. I didn't even realize, like, oh wow, I'm still here. I didn't even plan anything. So after I missed that first window, that's when I really started thinking about what is it I want to do?

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

And honestly, I was stuck. I had no clue. Back to when I was that teenager, you know. Hey, my plan A didn't work out. Plan B is okay, and and honestly, it was going well. My family's taken care of. I got a steady job. Getting your master's degree. Got my master's. Uh I was comfortable. Ah, that good word cuff. I was comfortable. So I didn't have a real need to change. And I also wasn't at home sitting thinking about what I should be doing.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

So yeah, it was about the teen year point. Um I was coming up on my major's board, and I'm meeting with all these colonels. You know, they're they want to sit down and give you the uh mentorship, which is code for this is what we need you to do. And the short of that is I didn't like any of my options that were presented to me. So now I got a decision to make, a real one.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Uh at the same time, I had already started flight training in Los Angeles just as a hobby.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Oh, okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

I I wasn't looking at this as oh, I want to go be an airline. I just I just want something to do after work. It's gorgeous out there, flying out over the Pacific. I had a great time. And this was 2018, into 2018, going into 2019.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Yeah, that California weather's nice.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Yeah. And uh a lot of my instructors and the flight school owners, oh, you trying to be a pilot? Airline shortage, airline shortage, airline shortage, airline. I kept hearing those two words, airline shortage. I don't know what you're talking about. But again, you know, I'm I'm coming up on that decision point, so I start looking into what is this airline shortage thing? It turns out it's it was a real thing. And uh the airlines were hiring like crazy, and a lot of movement was happening. I start making phone calls. You were one of them. A couple of my Air Force pilot buddies, uh, yeah, it's real. Then I start talking to airline pilots on the outside. Yeah, it's real, real. Like you, you need to whatever you are gonna do, like you need to do it now and go as fast as possible. So I'm like, all right, well, that was about it. Like, um spring of 2019 is when I put in my paperwork to separate.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

So now here's here's a real question, right? You at this point are a career changer, right? When you're at that point of I've had this great career so far that has done me no wrong, that pays the bills the first and the 15th, I can just get out and go do this some more somewhere else and make enough money to feed my family. Now you're making the decision. How did you come up with the decision of I'm gonna get out of the Air Force, I'm no longer gonna do acquisitions, and I'm gonna go pursue becoming an airline pilot.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Yeah, so as quickly as I just told you how that happened, again, mentally, this has been a process for quite a while. Right. So thank God my wife and I, you know, we were in lockstep the whole way. She knew at least what I was that I was planning to get out. I just needed inspiration as to what that thing that I would be pursuing. So once I started flight training, I started doing the research, it all started coming together. We we had a house in San Antonio that I rented out because I I kind of had a feeling when I left San Antonio to go to Los Angeles, this may or may not be it for me.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

It was either if if I take the promotion, I'm staying till 20, but if I get out, we'll come back here and we'll we'll at least figure it out from San Antonio from home. So started doing a lot of research about how am I gonna pay for this? Because I don't know if you guys out there know flight training is is not cheap. It's like a hundred thousand dollars from zero to CFI or it's more, it's more than that. It's more now. So how am I gonna pay for this? And uh I had a GI, I had my GI bill that I fully intended on using for my kids for them to go to school. Um that was actually part of the reason why I took an extra assignment because when I decided to transfer my benefits to them, well, that incurred a four-year commitment, but no big deal. I was planning on doing that. Um so now I that was probably the hardest decision. Like, do I take from my kids for me to go pursue this? That may not work out. You know, that's that's a hard one. Um, but Tasha and I talked about it quite a bit when we came up with the plan. Okay, I set my terminal date to get out. My tenant was moving out of the house around the same time, so I have a place to go back to. My VA benefits um worked better for me to go to back to school. I found a school online that had a flight training affiliate program, and they had an affiliate in San, they had two affiliates in San Antonio. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Perfect, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:54

It started, it just started lining up. So I had the house, I had the school. I already talked to them. I got accepted when I was in Los Angeles. Uh now this was now gonna be my third degree program. It was a bachelor's, but I did not want to go back to school. But in in terms of making the GI Bill work the best, that was the way I chose. And after that, my wife is a nurse, as you know, she can find a job anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Uh, so I wasn't concerned about that. We had our financial stuff figured out to a point. And I knew I was gonna go into the reserves as well to supplement some of that income. But we had enough of the big rocks figured out to where I could just go.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

So, so pretty much trying to make a transition, the big things out here that that kind of made it easier is one, your spouse was in line with what you wanted to do. I think that's probably number one. Number one is she was like, I'm on board, cool. You figured out how you were gonna be able to afford to do it. Yep. That's number two. I mean, I think once your family's in line and you got the money to do it, then just figuring out how you're gonna do it is it. And that and that's that's right there.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

I will give you a little caveat here. So the entire family was not on board.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

So for people out there that are thinking about doing some drastic career change and all that, I know some people get really they're very close to their family, rightfully so. And the inputs of others can influence their decision. I, for one, when I got married, I made it very clear it was me and my wife and and and nobody else. And for the most part, that wasn't a problem. But that was a moment where push came to shove. And, you know, things happened behind the scenes with with my family members, right, where they weren't as supportive uh as my wife was. They wanted me to stay in the military, and I understood why, but my wife had my back 100%. So there was definitely some rough patches there, but the fact that her and I were in lockstep, it made it that much easier. I wasn't seeking their permission, right? I'm I'm essentially telling you what I'm doing, and I I'm not looking for your permission to do this. So for those people out there that are kind of thinking that, keep that in the back of your mind.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Yeah, like it's at the end of the day, y'all are the ones who have to live with it day in, day out. I was talking to someone earlier today, trying to make a transition that said, How do you and your wife feel about it?

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Because at the end of the day, you know, your family and everybody else, they'll give you their inputs based on their fears and their perspectives, but they don't live it day to day like everybody in your household.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yeah. And if my wife told me, hey, I want you to stay in the military, then I would have stayed. And and I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have blamed her for that either.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Again, we you talked about the comfort piece. Yeah, yeah. Everything was taken care of. Why would you want to go branch out and do something totally different and potentially put your whole make it so easy?

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Yeah, yeah, they do set you up, man. They do military set you up like it's easy, just stay right here.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

One of our instructors in ROTC, he said it back when we were in in college, and it didn't dawn on me until when I was coming up on that point. He said, uh the Air Force will make you, he's like, they won't make you rich. He's like, if you play your cards right, you could you could walk out the door pretty financially healthy. He's like, but they will make you very comfortable. They will make you so very comfortable. And I, you know, I just I didn't really pay attention because I'm a college student, definitely not financially comfortable. Right. I'm just trying to I don't even know what you're talking about. Yeah, I was just trying to keep my head above water, but then you get in that situation, and yeah, I was like, that's what he was talking about.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Yeah. So yeah, I mean, at that point, you're right. You you made your choice, and then now you made the move.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

And I remember talking to you about it, and it was you you felt really comfortable. You were like, I'm doing it, I'm ready to go.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

And and I think that's one of the keys too, is make the decision and move forward. Yep. Sometimes people halfway make the decision, halfway move and wonder why they don't. It's like you can't waffle. Especially when you're making a complete career change, moving your family, putting your money in into flying. You gotta be ready to do it. Very much so. So tell me, how'd flight training go? Flight training was fun.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Um it has its ups and downs, but it, you know, like I have no regrets. I learned a lot, had some successes, had some failures, which you know about. And, you know, I I really, really enjoyed flight training overall. One of the things that I like the most about it, and I'm not a scholar by any means. Like I got three degrees. It is not that I am this smart person, I promise you. But one of the coolest things I loved about flight training was the things that we were learning on the ground directly tie to what you're about to do in the plane. So there is no like, when am I ever gonna have to remember this trigonometry problem or you know, history or whatever? No, no, no. Everything you were learning on the ground, reading these books, will directly translate to what you're about to go out there and do.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

I'm still trying to figure out to use Pythagorean's theorem in real life.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Good luck. I'm sure there's a use for it somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Yeah. So so yeah, you're right, man. Like you you learn it. Cool, I'm gonna go do it right now. So uh what are some takeaways for someone getting started in training? What are some things, big takeaways on things you um things you learn and it's like on the positive side and some things that you learn, probably the other, you know, some things you're that you may uh maybe some negative things to consider or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

I would start with begin with the end in mind. Right? People say this a lot, and I don't I don't think people internalize it enough. If your goal is whatever, make sure you have a plan, but know what's on the other side of that. And I say that because once you get going, that path is not gonna be linear. I'm I'm talking to a guy who's lived it. I've I've lived it. You know, I we we we create a plan that is linear. Okay, I'm gonna do this, do this, do this, do this, and life will get in the way. I don't know if you heard of this thing called COVID, but we got out of uh we got back here to San Antonio the end of 2019. 2020, the world went upside down. Luckily, didn't really stop my flight training, but it slowed some things down. Um but like I I say that to say like things will happen family stuff, personal, whatever. In regards to flight training, show up prepared. Ask questions a lot of questions, be the most inquisitive person you can be. Should be bugging your instructor so much, he's like, hey man, leave me alone. I was an instructor. I have peers that were instructors. I don't I've had a couple students that used to call me, but not to the degree that I'm talking about here. You're spending a lot of money. You do not have time to waste showing up unprepared. Yeah. You know, failures, check rides, stuff like that, they they happen. I would ask everyone that's failed, how prepared were you when you showed up? How much work did you put in when you got there? I'll tell you right now, off a couple of mine, I had three. Two of them, I I really was just kind of floating. I I earned the disapproval. Looking back, I was like, man, I I did that wrong. And I learned so much from those, really. Actually, that's what the reason I wanted to become an instructor is because I wanted to be able to get to students before you know something bad like that happened to them. So yeah, have you know, have a plan, begin with the end in mind. Know what you want at the end of all of this. Understand that that plan is not going to be linear. And I say that to say when it when it starts going left and right on you, like don't quit.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

If you knew what you wanted at the beginning, it's still there for you on the other side. Right? Just because you're going through this doesn't mean you won't get there. Also, you know, in terms of the financial piece, like I said, show up prepared. The more prepared you can be, the faster and the cheaper you can make your training experience.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

There it is. There it is. Any times during going through during flight training? Any memorable times or memorable stories you remember from flight training that stick out to you?

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Yeah. Uh so my instrument rating was the rating where the rubber met the road for me. Where private pilot was just fun. I was just having fun out there, man, just flying, doing maneuvers. It was just a great time. I got through that checker, I had no problem. Um, I didn't study a ton for it. Here and there for the written, but I had some issues getting my medical. So I flew a ton with an instructor. So by the time I got my medical and started going so it was just a formality at that point.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

I treated that like my instrument training and it it reared its ugly head, right? Uh, I went to a flight school here in San Antonio that does stage checks.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

One, two, three. Three is supposed to be like essentially like a mock check ride. And the stage three is with your chief instructor. Um, great guy, Air Force vet, uh, F4 guy. Um kind of uh what's what's the word I would say? He no nonsense. We'll say it like that. Yeah. But I don't mind that. Anyway, we go out there and I I bomb it. And he he sits in the plane like this the whole way. He doesn't say a word, he just sits there with his arms crossed. He's not writing anything. I know I'm not doing well, but his reaction isn't giving me anything one way or the other.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Anyway, we land uh back in uh at in the airport, and he goes, Well, that sucked. I was like, uh, yeah, yeah, I'd have to agree. So in the debrief, he ripped me a new one. And I deserved it, yeah. I I wasn't mad about it, but I I kind of walked out of there like, oof, this is real. And I got a little better, but not good enough. I I was basically operating off rote memorization. I wasn't at the point of uh was it application? Yeah, right, where where you can just you understand what's happening. So as you're starting performing stuff, hey, if things go a little haywire, oh I because I know this, I can fix it.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

I literally like it would paint my numbers for me. All right, I put it in the procedure, I go here, I do this, I do that, and it just in the check ride, it it bit me twice. Same check ride, same check ride. Oh man. We yeah, it's bad. But like I the instructor I had, or the examiner I had who now flies for Delta, like gave me some really good advice walking out of there, a lot nicer, but kind of the same. Like, you you hey, if your goal is to get to the airlines, you better take this way more serious. This isn't just you out here having fun. Yeah, it's fun, but like we're we're out here to to learn. And if if you want to get there, you screwing up here, it will stop you before you ever ever even make it to that point.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

That's serious.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

So, Roger, that um, yeah, but then on the success side, I think I don't know how a lot of other instructors would feel. I think being an instructor was probably the best job ever.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

I was about to ask you, when did it really come together for you?

SPEAKER_01 27:19

As I was training to be an instructor, I had a really, really great instructor who helped me. He ended up getting sick and had to step away, but he was a uh retired chief master sergeant.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

And one of the most frustrating yet rewarding lessons I had with him, we were I was teaching a cross-country flight plan. So did the navlog. We go out and fly it. I don't remember what happened, but like the first point on the nav log, I jacked it up something serious. I don't remember what happened, but I was I was angry at myself in the plane. Like I'm just spewing. Like, how did you do this? How did you mess this up? You're supposed to be teaching it. And I was like, I told my instructors like, hey man, let's just go back. I'm sorry. I'll I'll redo this and we'll come back tomorrow. He said, Hey, hey, look, relax. Like, this is what happens. Things things got a little off schedule, no big deal. Let's pick up the next point and then time it from there, and we'll just continue that way. Okay, okay. So I get my head back in the game and we go to the next point. Okay, that checked out. Go to the next. And then basically I got back on track. And he everything worked out after that. And on the ground, he was like, Yeah, man, like, hey, things didn't start off the way you thought it was going to. It happens.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Sounds also like your career.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Amen. It happens, man. Like, just focus, pick up the next thing, and let's just keep going. He said, You're gonna have a student like that. You know, what do you what are you gonna do in that moment? You you were the instructor, kind of losing your cool there. What if that happens to a student? I'm like, man, you're 100% right. Fast forward, that did happen to me with the student. But no, I loved being an instructor. It it was one, it it showed that I knew more than I thought. You have to, right? Now the student becomes the teacher. Yeah, you have to know what you're talking about. And every student you get is is different from different walks of life, from everything, and and everyone learns different. Now it's your job, instructor, to get that same knowledge passed to him and to him and her and to everybody that comes to your desk. And I love that challenge. And I also loved seeing when the light clicked on for them.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

And I also like being the boot in their ass when they were screwing up because I have personal experience with that. Like, hey, I see what you're doing. This is not what you want to do. Let's here, here's why. I can tell you off my experience. So, um, because of that, I've I formed like real relationships with some of my students. I still talk to them here and there.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

It sounds like there was a lot of personal growth in that transition as you became an instructor. Yeah. And and what's interesting is just from knowing you, I remember a change in you during that time frame from you before all of that, too.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Yeah. Um looking back on those times back in the military, like, I mean, I I enjoyed look, I can look back and think of the positives. Yeah. Yeah. I did not enjoy every job, but I enjoyed a lot of the people, people were the thing with the military. And that's a thing a lot of a lot of the reasons why people like to stay is because you enjoy the people you're working with. But the suck that comes down from above, it affects us all. And I probably was a lot more bitter back then than I am now. Like I am, I could truly say I'm happy. I I've I know I made the right decision. And hearing it from you, my wife, other people that knew me back then to now, that also recognize that change is kind of cool to hear, but also kind of tragic for me. Like, damn, was I really that bad?

SPEAKER_00 31:17

You know, I wouldn't even say that bad. It's the fact that, well, one, you got older, you matured.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Right. I mean, clearly. But it's there was a light that came because you were fine. I mean, you just you were just going to work, like most people.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

You're doing the job, they're good at your job. Like you said, you got all these degrees. You're like, went to school, went to school, doing what I'm supposed to do. Kids fed, wife's good. So you were living a good, you know, you you were comfortable, had all the just comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

But now, like, you are like I talk to you, you're excited to go to work.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Like you enjoy being there.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Making a lot less money. Right away. Right. A lot less money. I just want to put that out there. I was not living high on the hog as a flight instructor. And people that are in that line of work know exactly what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

There's that side that people is like, are you gonna make enough to live as a flight instructor? No, no, not at all.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Not at all.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

You you're gonna you'll survive. It's like being, it's almost like a step above being in college.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Yeah, in some degrees, because you're getting paid. Right. But you don't have as much fun as you did as a college student.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Right, right. But you can you don't have to eat ramen every day.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

True.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Very true. That's the difference.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Very true.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

So for being a flight instructor, learned a lot there. Yep. Uh know you got a lot of jewels from there. So then what's it look like as you're a flight instructor trying to get your first big boy job?

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Yeah. So uh as I told you, I was doing a lot of my flight training during COVID. For me, my process was or the path for me was get to a regional job. Other discussions, the the world of aviation is vast. You you could go so many directions. But for me, I chose to go to the regional route. And the regional route had these cadet programs, they still have them. But to me, what I saw was hey, apply here. You can if you get hired as a cadet, you can get a guaranteed interview to go to the regional that you've applied to. Now it's not a guaranteed job, but it is a guaranteed interview. But at the same time, COVID was happening, the same thing with that pilot shortage that I was talking about earlier was was still happening, right? The airlines were kind of slowing down as terms of flying, but the uh the retirements were still happening at a crazy rate. So the regionals, the majors, the hiring kind of paused, but it it picked up very quickly. And the way it was working was hey, you get in a cadet program at three, four hundred hours of flight time. The second you get your minimums, you get a class date. Come on down. So I was coming in around halfway through that. Okay. I applied to be a cadet, and a lot of people back then did not think that program was was good. Oh, that's stupid. You know, why would you do that? I'm like, why would I not? It it cost me nothing. Right. I sign up. If they say no, cool, I'm I'm right where I started. If they say yes, then I gotta leg up over you because you didn't, you know, say you didn't want to take advantage. So I get I got hired, and when I got my minimums, I I got hired as a uh to come in for training summer of 23. And uh I showed up to start in doc December of 23.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Okay. And from what I remember is where you went to uh where you went to the originals, one of the toughest training programs.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Now go into a place where it has the toughest training programs in your mind was your transition from figuring out how to take it seriously, and now you're like, this is my end goal. How did you take, how did you what was your mentality going into training there and how'd it work out for you?

SPEAKER_01 35:34

I I was switched on when I got there. I I knew without a shadow of a doubt I was gonna make it through. When we showed up to systems training, in doc was just fire hose treatment of a bunch of things, the rules and regulations, stuff like that. You're like, okay, okay. But we had a test on it, so I hadn't I had to know it. Systems, when we got there, um I keep realizing like I have all these veterans around me. One of our chief instructors was an Air Force uh 135 pilot, former 135 pilot. So he got up there and he was like, This is gonna be hard. It's supposed to be. We know it's hard. That's okay. We're we're here to teach you. We understand your guys' training backgrounds. We're gonna make sure you get through this. But you will be putting in the effort, if you want to be successful, you're gonna have to put in the effort. Roger, that. Like I knew that right away. So I listened to exactly what they said. Do what we tell you when we tell you. And they one of the cool things they did that I I thought was really cool with uh them helping us was hey, every block of training is a is a week, Monday through, I think we did Saturday. Monday through Wednesday, your head's gonna be in a blender. Thursday, Friday, you're gonna be like, okay. The blender's starting to slow down a little bit. By Saturday, the smoothie's made. Then when you come back the next week, you get a couple days off to study, and then we would do our test or validation the following that first day back. The training was here, the validations were down here. Now, you being a military guy, myself, you don't believe that because we like to screw with people. So you're like, Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but I'm believing. Yeah, I don't believe you. And it took about three blocks of training before I realized, like, oh no, they're actually telling the truth. Like every validation was easier than the previous week of training. So, oh wow, they're they're not lying to me. Like that, if if I do what they say when they say, I'm gonna be all right. And and I was successful. I I ended up uh passing the simulator, it was a little tough for me, just never having done a full motion sim, and you're now you're dealing with uh procedures and callouts and all kinds of things that I didn't have to worry about in a Cessna. You know, looking at the flight deck of a Cessna versus a 175 is totally different. So it was a technological leap. Just took me a second, but we we got it done.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

Hey, that's transformation right there. Yeah, you know, and that that like I said, that connects that lesson you learned early so that when it mattered, no issues.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Yeah, no issues at all. And I will say, and people might not believe this, the check ride at that level is one of the easier check rides I've ever had.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

I would agree. And and and I think that's also because I think of how how you prepare at that point where it just becomes, oh, it's not that bad.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Because you're also prepared, just like you said, at this level, then they make a check ride. Yeah. And that's check ride number what in your career at that point? Seven. Right. You've taken so many that it's okay. Not only am I exprepared, but I've taken enough check rides to mentally know how to deal with taking check rides.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

So what's life like being an airline pilot?

SPEAKER_01 39:07

The best. I love it. I'm mad at myself for finding this job so late.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Okay, so what are some of the what are some of the things you like about it?

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Uh to my military people out there, you'll appreciate this. I have a very singular job. Fly the plane from point A to point B, B to C, C to D, and go home.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

That's it.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

That's the job. There's no, hey, I need you to volunteer. Hey, I need you to do this, hey, I need, you know, I don't get pulled in multiple directions. When I show up to work, I might get reflowed on a trip, but the job is to fly the plane.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Um, and flying is just the coolest job ever. I mean, I like I said, I wish I would have found it 20 years ago, but here we are.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Okay. So, what are some of the things you don't like about the job?

SPEAKER_01 39:58

How do I be diplomatic about that? Well, like at the end of the day, it's still a job. That's probably the best way to say it.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

It's still work.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

One of the cool things, you know, back to the cool things, it's very decentralized. I don't have a boss, I don't, my boss is in Minneapolis. I don't think I've ever met my actual chief pilot. Um, so I show up, I meet with a captain, and we go off and do whatever we're supposed to do. And and the company trusts us to do that. It's kind of crazy when you think about it. Like there's no real yeah, there's no real eyes on you as you're performing your work day. That being said, there's a lot of, I mean, it's still a job. You get the emails, you get uh the the trainings that we have to do. I'm getting ready to go to one. Um passengers, and in some respects, you know, I typically don't deal with them. That's the flight attendance gig. But if it gets to a certain level, then you know, yeah, we got to do things.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

That's a that's a lot of responsibility, right? When you think about it, not just the responsibility of the lives of the, you know, but the airplane. And they're like, we just you say you're gonna be where you're supposed to be. The most simplest thing in my mind, your number one job as an airline pilot is be where you're supposed to be when you're supposed to be there. Yes. It is the in my opinion, if you boil it down to it, that's what you gotta do. Where am I supposed to be and what time am I supposed to be there?

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

It's so simple.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

And because of that, I never know what day it is. Yes, I I literally am like, am I supposed to be at work right now? I just check the schedule. Yep. My watch says no flight today.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

And how many days do I have to be where I need to be? And how many hours do I need to be there? So although you you got this career at this point in your life, what lessons that you've learned from the Air Force on do you think help you be one, because now you're at a job and clearly you do well at it. Um it seems easy in the relatively, you know, because you do it. And it doesn't, it's not burdensome, the the things that you're responsible for. That when someone looks in the outside, that's a lot of responsibility. Yeah. For you, it's like it's just a job.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

Yeah, one of the great things about the military in general, and I'm gonna throw a little jab here, is we do a great job of teaching leadership. Very rarely do you get to see that in execution. But I do think the military does a great job of training everybody, officers and enlisted, of leadership, how to do it, how to take care of people, how to take care of the mission, how to balance, how to stand up for yourself and your team when things start going haywire. So we did a great job of training that stuff. And as an officer, you know, you'll remember this in ROTC. The whole motto was figure it out. I'm not gonna hold your hand, right? Like it is your job to go get the information and then you report it back to me. And it was really annoying, but that those kind of things really serve you well just fundamentally. And then, you know, as a process of maturing, I still lean on some of those things. Uh, one of the greatest lessons I still think about to this day was when I was in SOS squadron officer school, we had a training block about the second and third order effects of every decision you make. It was a block on decision making, but it was more about the second, third, and fourth order effects that may come of the decision that you make.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

Right. And we talked about making a decision with time, making a decision without time, right? So in the airlines, we call that a no uh a time threat or a no time threat. Wow, I here we go. Like it lines up exactly. Um, I had and we went over some exercise, but you get like examples as as you're doing your job. So coming onto this side, it's kind of just translating what that was to here. It it didn't really change much. Um, one of the things I I'm I'm older. Right. So a lot of my peers, even the captains I fly with, I'm older than a lot of them. And they haven't had the life experience that I've had yet. One of the ways I don't use that to try to sun them or try to be better than them. Yeah. I also know how rank works. But one of the things I I really pride myself in is that I know what to do without being asked to do it. Hey, if if things start going left, I can just jump in and do something else. We had an in-flight emergency with a passenger a couple times, but this one in particular, I was pilot-flying the captain's pilot monitoring, and he gets the call. It's on the emergency line. So I immediately know something is not right. And he's over there taking his notes, and he's new. And this is, you know, he's in the captain's seat. He's got the ultimate responsibility. And he, I could hear in his voice, he's nervous about what's about to happen. I say, hey, Cap, I got you. I'm gonna fly the plane. I got the radios. You do everything you gotta do. We'll come back and talk whenever you're ready. We'll brief it up and we'll go from there. Do you want me to declare an emergency? No, not yet. Roger that. I'm flying. That was all we said. Then he does everything he has to do. We regroup, we declare the emergency. I landed. Who was it?

SPEAKER_00 45:20

What happened?

SPEAKER_01 45:21

Uh the passenger wouldn't wake up.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

That was snap.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

He was an older guy. Uh yeah, that was scary. The flight attendants were trying to, I mean, sternal rub, everything. One waking up.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

Uh, by the time we got on the ground, he actually was awake. Uh, so didn't die or anything, but it was weird. Um, so I pride myself in being able to do that. I'm I'm not the the first officer that sits there in his little cubby, just looking out the window, living living life. There, there's things that can be done, and you don't need to be told at every turn, hey, I need you to do this, do that. Like just do it, take care of it. It's initiative. It is initiative.

SPEAKER_00 46:00

If you can lean, you can clean.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

Amen. So, yeah, that was one of those things. Um, I think I do a great job of communicating with people. The military definitely taught me that, right? Like again, in those flights, those crews, we're we're coming from all walks of life. Right. And I enjoy getting to know the people I'm working with. Uh, I'm fortunate to be at a small base, so I get to fly with these people quite a bit. And yeah, we, I mean, we work very well together. So on the flip side, when things start to go left, because we have a relationship, there's a level of trust there. So when things get ad-assed or in a hurry, I need something now, they know where I'm coming from. And there isn't this who you talking to? Like, no, no, no. We're gonna get it done. We'll come back and brief it later.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

Man, that's really good examples. That's that right there is what subordinate leadership, peer leadership, all that. Servant leadership. Servant leadership. There we go. There we go. All that good stuff, man. That's good. So um, man, that's a lot of good stuff, man. Um now do you have any um excuse me. No, they'll bleep that out, hopefully. So, you know, we do a lot of stuff in the community to show people what it is we do just by being who we are. How important do you think it is representation in aviation?

SPEAKER_01 47:31

It's very important. I didn't know anything about flying until I started doing it. If I'm being honest, right? Like I my image of a pilot growing up, and it's I mean, I think it's still a lot of people's image, is an old white guy.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

It's what it is. Like that's kind of how it was. Now, we don't need to go into the history of why that became a an uh the stereotype, but it is important to see people that look like you doing things that you didn't think were possible, right? Because it's not impossible, you just haven't been exposed to it. That's all it is.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

That's it. And I think that's that's the key too, is it's not harder for anybody, it's just hard for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

Yeah. That that's the key there. It's hard, it's hard for everybody. Yep. But seeing somebody who has a similar background, you kind of think, even if it's somebody that you know, helps you know that, oh well, if somebody I know can do it, that means that it's at least in the wrong possibility. Because that means I could also do it.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

You know, so doesn't mean it won't be without sacrifice, and it's gonna still be hard, but it is totally possible, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Um, you got any advice for people who are thinking about getting into aviation, getting into flying, whether it's changing careers, sure, or you know, or young people, just any just big picture advice.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

Begin with the end in mind. Now, for young people, you're allowed to change your mind a hundred times. I did it, or just kind of not know what you want to do. But whatever you're interested in, take the time to research it and and think of the path from where you are to what it looks like in the end. As best you can. There's no rush here to make that that decision. But the more you could put time into the things that you think you might be interested in, the better off you will be ultimately. Once you come up with a plan, go 100 miles an hour. Yeah, it is. Do not quit. Like again, life will get in the way. Know that right now. Just know that. Things are gonna go other than expected. But if you understand what's on the back end and you're passionate, you're gonna you're gonna keep your head down and keep going.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

That's it. Well, that's all good. You got anything else for the people?

SPEAKER_01 49:54

No, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

Well, that's all good, man. Good uh, good hearing your story all the way through from ROTC acquisitions, student training, instructing, and on to the airlines. Yes, sir. All right, appreciate you.