Episode 6: The Freedom to Be Fully Human

Episode 6: The Freedom to Be Fully Human

What if men's healing isn't about becoming a better kind of man—but becoming more fully yourself?

In this episode of the Men's Healing Network Podcast, Vincent Perez sits down with Gregory Flynn, founder of Men Connecting, and Efraín Gutiérrez, artist, facilitator, strategist, and founder of Divine Fluidity, for a wide-ranging conversation about masculinity, queerness, connection, and the freedom to move beyond the roles we've been taught to perform.

Efraín reflects on their own journey of returning to the brave, expressive child they were before the world began telling them who they were supposed to be. Gregory explores the difference between healing and becoming whole—and what it means to reclaim the parts of ourselves that were cut off by messages like "man up," "don't cry," and "don't be gay."
 Drawing inspiration from ALOK, they consider what queer experience can teach all of us about questioning the boxes we've inherited and finding greater freedom within ourselves. 

The conversation also explores men's need for connection and platonic touch, the grief that can accompany recognizing what we've lost, and why replacing "toxic masculinity" with another rigid model of "healthy masculinity" may simply be, as Gregory puts it, "redecorating the prison."

The conversation ultimately turns toward relationship, systems, race, identity, and the danger of using our shared humanity to bypass the very real effects of patriarchy and oppression. Drawing on bell hooks, Gregory and Efraín ask what becomes possible when we confront those systems while refusing to reduce ourselves—or one another—to a single identity or binary.

This is a conversation about becoming more human—not alone, but together.

Show Notes

In this episode, Vincent welcomes Gregory Flynn, men's circle facilitator and founder of Men Connecting, alongside Efraín Gutiérrez, artist, facilitator, strategist, and founder of Divine Fluidity.

Together they challenge one of the central assumptions of contemporary men's work: that the answer to harmful models of masculinity is simply to replace them with a healthier model.

Instead, Gregory and Efraín explore what happens when men begin questioning the rules themselves. They discuss returning to the parts of ourselves we learned to hide, the gifts queer experience can offer conversations about masculinity, the importance—and complexity—of touch between men, and the grief that comes with recognizing what cultural expectations may have taken from us.

The conversation expands beyond individual healing into connection, patriarchy, race, class, identity, and systems of domination. Rather than using our common humanity to erase those differences, Gregory argues that we have to move through them to understand how they shape and wound us. As Efraín reminds us near the end of the conversation, bell hooks' The Will to Change may contain the invitation in its title: we have to be willing to change.

In this episode, you'll learn about:

• Why men's healing may be less about finding a new model of masculinity and more about becoming fully human
• How boys learn to mask, suppress, or abandon parts of themselves in order to belong
• The difference between "healing" and becoming whole
• What queer experience can teach us about freedom, ambiguity, and returning to ourselves
• Why ALOK's work has influenced Gregory, Efraín, and Vincent's thinking about gender and masculinity
• How masculinity is often defined by what men are told not to be
• Why platonic touch and physical connection between men can be powerful—and why it isn't right for everyone
• How grief can become a pathway toward reclaiming parts of ourselves we thought we'd lost
• Why replacing toxic masculinity with a rigid definition of "healthy masculinity" risks creating another kind of prison
• Why connection, not individual self-improvement alone, is essential to healing
• How patriarchy harms men while also creating systems that oppress others
• Why race, class, sexuality, and identity require nuance rather than another set of binaries
• What bell hooks' The Will to Change can teach us about the willingness required for transformation

Guests

Gregory Flynn joined his first men's circle in 2008 and has been facilitating them in various capacities since 2012. In 2020, at the onset of the pandemic, he founded Men Connecting, a men's circle that continues to meet weekly. In 2022 and 2023, he hosted The Bind, a podcast for men and their loved ones. He currently runs monthly drop-in men's circles as well as a six-week program for men in North Seattle.

Gregory facilitates retreats and workshops for men and mixed-gender groups. He also supports organizations and leaders through culture change, executive and team coaching, leadership development, and other services.

Learn more: circ.al

Efraín Gutiérrez (they/he) is an artist, facilitator, and strategist working in service of liberation for all. Rooted in queerness and connection, their creative practice, Divine Fluidity, serves leaders, funders, and families of wealth, inviting people beyond the binaries that keep us performing instead of becoming.

Mentioned in this episode

• ALOK
• bell hooks
• The Will to Change by bell hooks
• Divine Fluidity
• Men Connecting
• Grieving Man
• Embodied Masculine
• Core Energetics
• Men's circles and retreats
• Somatic practices
• Platonic touch and co-regulation
• Queerness and gender identity
• Patriarchy and systems of domination
• Race, class, and identity
• National Compadres Network

Connect with the Men's Healing Network

www.MHN.life

If this conversation resonated with you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who could benefit from it.

Hosted by: Vincent Perez
 Produced by: Tom Keppeler
 Marketing: Dee Enriquez
 Funding Support: Choice Regional Health Network

Transcript

Vincent Perez: 0:04

Welcome to the Men's Healing Network podcast. I'm your host, Vincent Perez. Today's conversation begins with Gregory Flynn, a facilitator who has spent more than 15 years exploring what can happen when men come together with intention, honesty, and a willingness to be changed by one another. Gregory has been facilitating men's work since 2012 and is the founder of Men Connecting, a weekly men's circle that began during the pandemic. Today, he leads men's circles, retreats, and workshops, and serves individuals, teams, and organizations around leadership and culture change. I asked Gregory to invite someone who has influenced his work and his life. He invited Efrain Gutierrez. Efrain is an artist, facilitator, and strategist working in service of liberation for all. Rooted in queerness and connection, Efrain's creative practice, Divine Fluidity, serves leaders, funders, and families of wealth, inviting people beyond the binaries that keep us performing instead of becoming. That idea, moving beyond performance and toward becoming, takes us somewhere powerful in this conversation. Together, Gregory and Efrain challenge the idea that men need yet another model of masculinity to live up to. Instead, we explore what it might mean to unlearn the rules that have shaped us, reclaim the parts of ourselves we were taught to hide, deepen our connections with one another, and find the freedom to become more fully human. Here's my conversation with Gregory and Efrain. Welcome to the Men's Healing Network podcast. I'm so excited today. I've been looking so forward to this conversation. Gregory, meeting you over these last few months as, MHN has gotten off the ground, having you in my home, just meeting you for coffee, going to a conference with you, has really just warmed my heart to know that there are practitioners like you out there with such a sincere approach. Even holding me, you know, I just-- I had a sense of vulnerability, and being able to be held very emotionally by another man is such a gift, and so I'm really glad to have you here. And I'm also very excited and curious, as to why you invited Efrain. Can you tell us a little bit about that relationship?

Gregory: 2:20

Vincent, I just echo everything you said. It's been really great getting to know you and getting to get close to you. I'll leave for the listeners just the little mystery of like, I'm really touched by the fact that you brought me a flower at that coffee. Yeah, when you invited me to, to do this, several men's names kind of started filtering up to the top. and but one came, and just obviously made its way to, to the very top, and that's, that's Ephrain. We have a funny backstory; we met in a professional kind of networking situation 15 years ago, maybe something like that. A long time ago. and then didn't connect for many, many years, and we found our way back together as we were both kind of in finding our way in through this work. and I think part of what makes me wanna invite him, invite you, Ephrain, into this conversation is, the conversations that we have had around, men and masculinity and what does it mean to be a man in the world today. Every single time I get into a conversation with Ephrain, I leave feeling a little bit more one, seen. I get to question assumptions that I've made. And I get these deep insights about the ways in which, I as a man and then men in general in our culture have been shaped by culture and by, the systems that we live in. Few people put it into as clear an articulation as, as you do, Ephrain. So, yeah, it's-- I'm really excited about this too. It's, it's gonna be really rich

Efrain: 3:50

Thank you

Vincent Perez: 3:51

Efrain, any, any response to that or do you wanna share anything about your relationship?

Efrain: 3:54

I'm just very grateful to Greg, for seeing me and for the invitation. I feel similarly. I think that every time I have a conversation with him, I feel like we're like fellow travelers I feel that with Greg, we're already there. We just meet and start exchanging ideas from the beginning, and it's just been really… when you grow, right? Like when the other person is building from your ideas and you are learning from the ideas of the other person. I feel very much like that with Greg. And I'm in a journey to, get my hair longer than him, but every time I see him, I, I think I won't. It just keeps growing and growing, and mine is curly,

Vincent Perez: 4:36

I like that competition.

Efrain: 4:37

See.

Vincent Perez: 4:39

Efrain, I'm curious, we'll kinda launch this as you jump into this conversation. I always like to start with the big one is what does men's healing mean to you?

Efrain: 4:49

For me, it comes down to more than going into trying to find a different model of masculinity and centering on like a different archetype of what it means to be a man and trying to get there. A lot of what I come to, in terms of my healing is about coming back to that little Efrain that was seven years old and already had all the wisdom in the world, and already was saying, "You think I'm feminine? And I had to mask and I had to do a lot of things to survive, where at the very end, what I'm working towards is to unlearn and come back to that little boy that was being labeled as weak. And all of the labeling, the-- all of the reason why he was being labeled is because he was very brave. So I wanna go back to that bravery and that idea of being a better man for me is being more fully who I am independently of what masculinity is or is not. So it's a very personal journey, and it's at the very end about coming back to being fully human.

Vincent Perez: 6:01

Thank you. And I'm hearing, fully human but authentic to, like, your own unique spirit in that.

Efrain: 6:08

Mm-hmm

Vincent Perez: 6:08

A few weeks ago, through some somatic work, we were invited to, through Embodied Masculine, we were invited to be with our, our little boy. And what was fascinating for me in this visualization, I ended up, with my back against a tree in a summer sunset, this beautiful sun on the face. And next to me, though, was not just one of me, it was multiple me. There was my seven-year-old on my right, and I had my arm around him. And then on my left, he was-- must've been about 13, but he's holding the two-year-old me. And we're all just chilling there in the sun and the light, and I realized, who was little, little Vincent at two and four and seven and nine, and all of these experiences that shaped me. There was something really beautiful about the many little mes that needed my care, right? Needed my attention. And, it was really beautiful to provide that kind of for them, within my, with my own, my own heart. I'm curious, Greg…

Efrain: 7:08

That's beautiful.

Vincent Perez: 7:10

I'm curious, Gregory, where does that lead you? I mean, with Efrain's, it just sparked this memory in me of just this exercise I did a few weeks ago.

Gregory: 7:16

That's, that is gorgeous. And, and yeah, the, the way that these different times in our lives, the different kinds of ways we're shaped in different places and different parts of our lives and new people, different people we've come into contact with. If you asked me the question directly before you asked him, I would've given a really similar answer. And I think part of this is that we, you know, we come from obviously very different places, different backgrounds, different cultures, different countries even, you know. And like, but like There is this thing that, that we share, which is being shaped as men in a culture that is trying to shape men into a particular kind of way of expressing oneself. There's a way in which that privilege that gets talked about, like male privilege that gets talked about, is true, and it's like it's true if you conform to this particular way of being. If you do not conform to this particular way of being, then many of those privileges are revoked. I feel it for sure in myself. One of the ways that I think about this is like, healing is, one piece of the work of looking at the wounds of myself and feeling into… 'Cause whenever I feel the activation of my body or I feel the shame that arises in me for certain things, it always has an age. That seven-year-old or the two-year-old Vincent or the, you know, the, the 13-year-old Vincent that was holding the two-year-old Vincent, I have my own versions of those, and each of them are also tied to particular ways in which I feel a shame or I feel some kind of loss in myself or some kind of, there's no value here or like the value needs to be proven somehow. And so I think about that piece and there's healing in that. And then I think about the stuff that has been taken or was cut off, severed maybe even, v- sometimes violently, you know, sometimes viciously. The, you know, "Don't cry. Be a man. Grow up." You know, "Man up." Those, that, that kind of messaging that comes through. And that to me, there's a, there's a reclaiming. Efrain, you said this like, you know, reclaiming self or maybe coming home. There's, so there's holding, I mean healing, and then there's whole-ing. The, to actually reclaim the, full self, the full spectrum of ourselves. That's I think my lifelong journey and the journey that I try to bring into the groups that I lead.

Vincent Perez: 9:32

I really like that. Healing and whole-ing. Efrain, what does that lead you?

Efrain: 9:35

I think what Greg was saying about the fact that we're going to like a similar response even though we come from different backgrounds and different experiences is my journey to healing as a man took me very deeply into understanding my queerness and, and the idea of, of being different. And I've been working on what are the gifts of that, that living as a queer person give you or allow or in some ways force you to, to develop. And there is a gentleness to self. There is an ability to hold ambiguity, and there is this returning to self that in my case come from queerness and from my experience, because I was forced to develop them, in order to survive. But the capacity to do this is very human. I think what Greg was just saying is it was just trained out of everyone, But these capacities also live inside every man, and it's not necessarily, a matter of sexual orientation or gender identity or anything else. It's really a human capacity to hold these things. So it's good for me to be able to get to this place where we're not teaching people how to do something, but we're really just reminding people something that they already-- that they've forgotten

Vincent Perez: 11:01

You know, there is something as a, as a cisgendered heterosexual man for me in my experience, and most of my relationships being among other cishet men. And then over the past few years coming across influencers or, you know, like Alok, which have, like, just opened my mind around

Efrain: 11:20

what

Vincent Perez: 11:20

has been severed. So I'm curious about this innate capacity you're saying, right, in all humanity that gets cut in all kinds of ways, even as we just opened up and started joking about competition, you know, of the length of hair. But I, I feel like I've been put into lots of competitions which are not healthy. Like, that sounds like a very fun, engaging kind of thing. there's the other side of competition which made me really push myself in, like, track and field. Like I, I really wanted, and I was disciplined, and I was focused and, very eager to be coached and, like, given the, the tips and approaches. And so it seems like there are some, some healthy components around how we are shaped as boys and men, but a whole lot of mess. And I'm curious, how do we, like, either bounce back? How do we combat that? How do we not let that hit us so hard? How do we stay whole?

Efrain: 12:15

We have to run towards it. It exists. We're human. We compare each other, we compete. I don't think that's not gonna go away, nor should it go away. It's just a matter of doing it I don't know how to define it, but more thoughtful and more intentional. I don't wanna turn the conversation, somewhere else. And under the risk of doing that, I facilitate a lot of spaces that tend to be very, like, oriented towards equity, and everybody's starts with pronouns and starts with a, with a lot of careful curation of the space, and everybody has to be very careful to speak from the "I," all of the things that we've, that we've seen. And what I have found is that in men's spaces, I have found a lot of roughness that is actually very helpful and needed for some people. Like, some of these heterosexual, straight, like, heterosexual cis men, that's not how they're gonna move or, get moved. So I actually been, like, running towards this sense of men sometimes being a little rougher, some men retreats that I've been to where men just, like, stand up and say, You shouldn't do that," or, "Why are you saying that?" And, there is value in that too. it's like everything in life, right? It depends on how it's done and, with what intention. So that's kinda what comes to mind when I think about that. Like, we have to, like, run towards the full spectrum of the human experience and, trying to stay with it instead of trying to say, "Don't do this." And I think that's not something that we do to men. We just tell them what not to do. There is not a lot about what, what to be

Vincent Perez: 13:48

Where does that lead you, Greg?

Gregory: 13:49

This is the thing, right? Is like in some ways, the project we're talking about here is so big. It's so massive, right? Like, how do you change the shaping of men and boys in the world? Which ultimately ends up being how do you change the shaping of humans? Because so much of our society revolves around patriarchy and the way that we, we're shaped to be in these boxes, You know, you mentioned Alok. Alok to me is a spiritual teacher. Like, I see them a- and, like, I hear everyth- everything they do from their comedy to the kind of riffs that they do of just, like, these pr- I mean, almost every Instagram reel is a mic drop from them. to me, it highlights the ways in which as cis hetero men, we can look to our queer siblings as folks who actually have carved a pathway they had to for survival, right? And, and to actually-- like, in order to be able to live freely in some way, and fortunately, we live in a world where that needle has moved. I mean, unfortunately, there's been the regression in our culture, but the needle has moved over the course of our lifetimes, and I see lots of potential for it to continue to move. I think that pathway, which is so terrifying in a world in which the way masculinity is so often defined is what you're not, right? Don't be like a woman. And then, homosexuality gets folded into that, right? Don't be gay. And, and that's part of how we get policed as men. We get policed on the playground, then we get policed in our communities, and we get policed in our workplaces, and we get policed in our relationships, and we get policed… Like, it just happens in place after place after place. To actually begin to turn ourselves to the discomfort of, like, maybe there's actually something for me to learn about myself here. It doesn't make me gay. It, it makes me more me. And then even tho- those, labels fall away. Like, it's like it doesn't even matter at a certain point. to be able to walk down that path a little bit and to discover a little bit more of who we are because, Efrain, you're totally right. There's so many ways in which I've had to mask who I actually am, in ways that are not dissimilar to the way you did. But the world is set up to keep me from having to actually face that until I'm in some sort of a crisis, right? Which is usually when men find their, their work, right? Is like their relationship blew up or their job disappeared, and now they're like, "Who the hell am I? What's going on?"

Efrain: 16:21

Mm-hmm. And the way that I think about this, is the same mechanism that's keeping us down, but for cis straight men it's usually to stay at the top, and for us it's to survive the bottom. But it's the same. It's like we're in different cells, but we are-- we're both in prison.

Vincent Perez: 16:39

Damn. Wow, I feel that. and I feel like the cis, the cishet cell, is, is so rigid. Like, and that for me has been some of that, releasing of, like, the more I kind of expand my awareness of who's in the world and who's, who's had to hide themselves, right? The more freedom of that learning, the more the learning that comes, the more freedom I feel like I have in my own, yeah, like spiritual sense, but also this, Yeah. There's something that's leading me to this memory of, of being in a men's grieving ritual, and there were all this different components where you could kind of-- It was almost like a, like a free-for-all. Like, there's this, this, an angry, you know, you let out a lot of, you know, aggression and, you know, take the bat and beat the, the couch or, or be with other men to be in the f- like I need four men to push against me, and I need, I need a physical like, "Rah," you know, and I need to wrestle through that. Another space where they're, really in consensual touch and, kinda like a little cuddle puddle. But, for me, thinking about touch among men and, getting to that space after my fifth, ritual, which was, you know, they're about five or six hours long, and realizing how much I needed that, how much I missed that. And I can look back at my own father's ex- you know, who was very aggressive, very violent, a lot of addiction issues. I mean, just, like a hurricane in the house, right? And all-powerful. And then the other side of that balance was so tender when he was sober, so tender that I remember, him rubbing my back, you know, or watching TV or something, and he was always had this, you know, this continuous like caress at times. And, that like switching from, from the-- what felt like extremes to me, but, but that, that was in him and I, I hadn't really had anything else like that from other men until this ritual, until this grieving ritual, which invited me into that and, I think sometimes, you know, we need held by other men. I mean, not just emotionally or spiritually, but actually physically held.

Gregory: 18:57

Platonic touch is, a need. Like it's a human-- not, and this, not just a human need, it's a, it's a, an animal need, right? Like you look at the way animals, especially other mammals, like support each other and care for each other, touch is almost always involved in one way or another. There's very few examples of animals that are out there that are just on their own who like don't have that kind of connected relationality. And so I think we oftentimes forget we have animal bodies, and we have that need. And, touch has become so sexualized in our culture, like the concept of it, that the very idea of like, like cu-cuddling, that's meant to be a nervous system regulator, which is a massive s- nervous system regulator. We can only self-regulate so much. We actually need other nervous systems to do that, another physical touch. To, to-- between men is considered gay, right? And that, it, that, that has harmed us so much. It has isolated us so much. And, you know, finding our way back to it is so important, and that's why, I mean, I love that, you know, in the, in the grief rituals that you're referring to, like that's, that, that's encouraged. It's something that we try to do in, in the groups that I run. it's something that needs to come back more. It needs to be named explicitly, and so I really appreciate you're, you're highlighting it.

Efrain: 20:18

That's a tough one for me. From touch with people that are like, that's hard one for me.

Vincent Perez: 20:23

Yeah

Efrain: 20:25

Yeah. It's like I'm still solving it for myself and how much is me just being conditioned to not… Like, when I've been to these gatherings and I, I see the value of it. As a queer man, the first time that I was at a men's retreat and I was, like, being fully hugged by a random straight cis man, it was, it was powerful. But, I don't know. I'm s- just that's a personal thing that sometimes is still a little weird.

Vincent Perez: 21:00

Well, I mean, isn't that, you know, each finding our own, but, there is something about like not exploring at all, right? Of being so confined to not even explore whatever, whatever, whether it's touch, whether it's, you singing, whether it's, you know, like any kind of real expression or emotional, emotional expression, that gets locked in

Gregory: 21:20

I really appreciate you bringing in Efrain 'cause it like, it immediately kills the like, oh, everybody's gotta do it one way type of, of a thing. And like, and that's, that isn't true. And I also wanna acknowledge, like there are people who have massive trauma around touch, you know? And so that needs to be something that's taken into account and, and worked with. We shouldn't just jump in and be like, "Oh, everybody's cuddle party, let's go," and assume it's gonna be an okay thing for everybody. So it's-- I, I, I really welcome your, where you're at with it, and if it's something that, if that's just how it is for you, then that's how it is for you. And if you're like on a journey toward, back towards platonic touch, then cool, I'm there with you, you know? So whatever it is, like it's all good.

Efrain: 21:59

It feels like I'm missing out, but

Gregory: 22:01

Hmm

Efrain: 22:03

something is like, no.

Vincent Perez: 22:05

it makes me wonder about modalities though. Like, I'm curious, Efrain, are there, like, particular modalities, approaches that if you've seen, or have you experienced really? What's really helped you? In terms of, you know, as we're thinking about this journey of men's healing and, you know, I've been able to uncover here in Washington State a number of different organizations serving boys of men and a lot of different approaches. And so that grieving ritual, Grieving Man is the organization. It's a very kind of outward expressive. I found, somatic engagement through Embodied Masculine, which is kind of an internal, lot of breathwork, visualizations, movement, and touch but with self. You know, my eyes are closed and I, you know, actually have a, a blindfold on and really exploring the internal landscape. And so what has worked? Is it, is it singing together? Is it like… What have you seen really, you know, support, especially in community settings, right? Or for, for that matter, like your own individual path?

Efrain: 23:02

I think for me, what has worked a lot is having one-on-one conversation, very long WhatsApp messages with individuals that independently of their gender are exploring their queerness. That has been really helpful, for me.

Vincent Perez: 23:21

that mean to you, exploring your queerness?

Efrain: 23:23

Just questioning what it means to be a woman or a man, or what do we really mean? At some point I was like, "Am I a man?" I was like, "Ugh, I don't know." Because I remember being at a conference, and I remember it was a group of, like, eight people. It was, um, when they do, like, small group stuff in conferences, and then you have this small group conversation, and it was, like, six, female-identifying people, and there was, like, this, like, older guy and me. Probably the guy is not that much older than me, And he just looked at everyone and he said, like, "Well, it's just you and me and the ladies." And I was like, "You know what? I am not the ladies, but I feel closer to the ladies than to you,""because of how you just said the ladies." And just being like, just going deep into that understanding of I am comfortable when I call myself a man because I know what I mean. thinking what he was thinking when he thought that we had an allegiance just because we both have a penis, I was like, "Yikes." Like, "No." Another example is a straight cis man that I've been having a lot of conversations with, we went to a retreat together. We talked a lot about queerness, and he just, stood up at some point and said," God, like, I finally-- like, I even have, trans men in my groups." 'Cause he also does, social, social practice group, work. And he said, "Oh my God," like, "you just wanna be free. It was like me when I was a kid, and I was reprimanded for just being me because I was a little louder and I wanted to… I couldn't sit for hours. And in some ways I'm not sexually queer, but I, I, I feel, I hear you. Like, I also wanna be free. You just wanna be free." And having those types of conversations is what kinda, like, comes to the, to the big realizations. and that's kinda what has been helpful to me, just going deeper and deeper and deeper in the not knowing.

Vincent Perez: 25:26

There is something there. I just want to be free. I've mentioned before, like I'm, I was a dancing kid. I was a dancing boy, and around like middle school that stopped because where I came from, boys did not dance. And if I could like a whole different… I think I could have been a dancer, like literal, like a professional, gone on my way and found some kind of what, and I don't even know what it would be, but, I feel like I was, I was robbed of it. Like it was, it was taken from me. shit, now I'm a little angry actually about it. Like, you know?

Gregory: 25:55

Mm-hmm.

Efrain: 25:56

It's never too late. It's never too late. Hey.

Vincent Perez: 25:58

been reclaiming that for sure. But the under- but really coming to that understanding like I do wanna be-

Gregory: 26:04

Well, there's p- there's probably some grief there, Vincent. Like, you know, like there's probably some grief in like… I, I felt this, you know, I felt it with, theater and walking away from theater. And there's, there's a variety of reasons for it and I think it's complex as to why it happened, but at the same time, there's, it doesn't matter. Like, there's just this grief that's there because of it. And, I think that that grief is actually an access to a kind of freedom. You already kind of alluded to this earlier in the conversation, but you said to me in a voice memo yesterday something along the lines of, do you remember what I'm kind of alluding to?

Efrain: 26:36

I don't remember. Just tell me a little more, and then

Gregory: 26:39

So you said something along the lines of, "We don't need like a new model of masculinity," right?"What we need is for you to be you."

Efrain: 26:49

Yeah

Gregory: 26:49

I think this is one of the things that's interesting out there, right? It's like there's all these conversations out there about toxic masculinity, and we need healthy masculinity. And so I think one of the things that happens in the m- in especially like kinda the Western white supremacist mind is like, well, that means that that's like a model, right? We need to like divi- develop some kind of a like structure. What does that look like? So we need to replace this with that, you know? And if you replace this with that, you're just gonna end up with a new s- sort of dominance. It's a s- it's a new kind of prison. It's like it's rebuilding the-- It's just redecorating the prison. Instead of that, freedom would be everybody just gets to be who they are,

Efrain: 27:27

Yes

Gregory: 27:28

and then you don't worry about, you don't have to worry about whether or not we have toxic masculinity or healthy masculinity. You just have healthy people. and when we get to be who we are, and we get to, to dance, and we get to sing, and we get to, whatever it is that, that our form of expression is or whatever it was that gets squashed, then we come alive. And, and there's nothing more free than that, I don't think. And, I know it's a longing I have. I wake up with it every morning.

Vincent Perez: 27:53

What has helped you access that?

Gregory: 27:55

This is helping me access it, you know, naming it here, with you two helps me access it. These kinds of conversations, other, other men's circles helps me access it. Other kinds of modalities that I've, been involved in are like core energetics, which is a, a somatic-based energetic practice to move energy that's stuck in the body, move it through, and like get-- it gets into that kind of like when I was saying earlier about like all of these different ages are attached to different, these different emotions that are challenging. Actually connecting to that at a visceral somatic level that's not just in the head. So much of what we do, in the therapeutic world, not to put down talk therapy'cause it's really valuable, I'm in it myself, but it's limiting, right? It has its limitations. it's all intellectualized. so somatic practices has, psychedelic therapy has as well. you know, name that ex-experience more of myself and go like, "Oh, that's… Oh yeah, that's there. Okay, and it's cool." but it's an ongoing process. I think this is lifetime work, honestly. It took me 53 years to get here, so it's gonna keep taking me some time to,

Efrain: 28:55

I think that's the key. I think that's the key and you already alluded to a lot of this, but I think I'm not that interested in the conversation about masculinity. I'm interested in the conversation of how men become better humans. And that allows us to stop arguing what it means to be a man, and we start talking about what it means to be you. What it means to be a healthy, decent, beautiful human being. And that then you do whatever you want with your masculinity, fine. If you get to the core of those parts, if you heal the parts that will make you a better human, then the rest we will build it together.

Vincent Perez: 29:38

There does seem to be a theme, in all of these conversations I've been able to have, and then really all the work, is back to our humanity. And you're mentioning this, like, authentic freedom of, of who I am and all the ways our culture, just stunts that. and you're both naming, I think there is some of our own work, but really connection is what I hear in this, right? Efrain, you're saying in these long, I've been doing WhatsApp as well, voice memos with different relationships, and it's such a beautiful-- 'cause you're, like, in stream of consciousness and then you get to take that and reflect it back, and it's such a beautiful, practice.

Efrain: 30:11

Yeah. Mini podcasts.

Vincent Perez: 30:12

Yeah. You could take all those recordings.

Gregory: 30:16

little personal podcast.

Vincent Perez: 30:18

But it is the connection, right? Is this, this actually reconnecting. It's like the practice of connection. And so whether it is a retreat or a long-term, like, long relation, like, like over years of conversation, it seems like that capacity to connect. We're hearing so much about all of this, men are in isolated, y- they're alone and, you know. What is that process? What, what gets us to connect? What has helped you actually either reach out or accept an invitation and make a connection?

Efrain: 30:51

You're making me think of, a couple things. The first one is I'm having the realization that this idea that just coming back to self and being your authentic self is not gonna take us to where we need to go, because we really need to be connected with others. It's not just about us actually individualizing ourselves and just, like, self-realizing. It's not… And that takes me to the second idea, which is, and this goes back to Alok, just the id- this has been extremely helpful for me. the idea that we're all gonna die. So that kinda makes me not being able to hate anybody really, 'cause I'm like, even when you think about these like… I'm not gonna say names so we don't get political, but these people that we see on the screen and we're like, "What are you doing? Why do you have so much money?" Or,"What…?" And I'm like, "And you're still just gonna die." You know? We're all just… And it, it feels morbid until it becomes very freeing, because then you start seeing we're all in this together. We're just trying to live the best that we can until we are all gone. And, there is some, there is some sadness, but there is also some beauty in that, and that kinda allows me to, feel that connection that, That's shared. Like, it's gonna happen sooner or later. But I do think it's important to say it's not just about me coming back to the seven-year-old Ephrain, but it's also Ephrain being able to see that as I'm driving in traffic, my job is not just to, for me to get to where I'm going. It's for all of us to get to where we're going safely. And when we switch that, then… And that's maybe where masculinity sometimes gets in the middle, because then we're competing and I feel humiliated if you move, s- 30 centimeters more than you're supposed to. What are you doing? And I'm like, "Just go ahead. It's fine. We're all just trying to get home, and we're just gonna die,

Vincent Perez: 32:44

You know, there is a freedom in that too. There's, I, I have a very similar kind of line of, of thinking and experiencing that ultimately men's work, whatever, you know, whatever that is and means is, is legacy work. Is about like who and how am I with the world, my relationships, you know, the earth, the animals, the just my existence is at the end of it all, 'cause we all are gonna die, is what, what, what was it? And not in like a, an accomplishment necessarily, but in our relations, right? In our impact.

Gregory: 33:19

Hmm.

Vincent Perez: 33:19

I have heard this concept, right, that we die three times. That you die when your b- you know, your body dies, and that happens, and then there's a mem- a memorial, you know, celebration of life or a funeral. And then the last time you die is the last time somebody on this planet speaks your name. And there's something really beautiful about that for me, about when might that be and why might that be? Because I'll have my kids, and they'll have their kids, and at some point it'll just dissipate

Efrain: 33:46

Hmm

Vincent Perez: 33:47

Gregory, is there anything, what was on your heart that you feel like is really important to also, bring to the surface in, in this conversation?

Gregory: 33:54

I wanna name like it's really sometimes the tendency to go to like the human thing, the whole the humanity thing is a, is an attempt to bypass the patriarchy or the conversations about, we do this with race too, right? It's just like, "Oh, we're all just the same. We're all humans, right? Like let's, can we just get past the race thing, get past color and all those things?" And it's like, no, no, no, no. We gotta go through it, right? We have to actually like go through the middle of it and feel what it's doing to us to get to, to the place. I think we're doing that here. I do think we need to understand what it is that these systems… 'Cause they are systems of oppression. And I mean, Bell Hooks talks about how the target of patriarchy is men actually, right? Not to say that it isn't about oppressing women, but that's why men are the target, right? You create these boxes, and that creates that system of domination and oppression. But that means that men are being harmed too, right? We are being wounded by these things. So to actually feel that, to actually help us then get to the other side of actually something beyond this is possible. Something that actually has us, recognizing ourselves as, as human is possible. And to what you were saying, Efrain, about like this not just being about like a, a personal development project, right? Where we're all just trying to better ourselves. I really believe that who we are who we are occurs in the middle between us. So where we are emerging, we are, we are together here, the three of us in this conversation, that we are each coming through the middle of that. We are not just like each in our own little individual corners, like lobbing a ball back and forth, right? We're, we're in a dance together, and that's always true wherever we are in our key relationships. And that's one of the reasons I think they say like, "You're the sum of the five people you spend the most time with," right? It's because what is actually cooking in the cauldron between you and, you know, recognizing that, that, that's the connection. We live in a culture that in order for domination and control to happen, we have to be disconnected. It's u- utterly impossible to do that if people are connected. In order to connect people, they have to dehumanize one another, right? And so it's what Efrain's pointing to, the, the idea of can we turn on the TV and see the people who most impact us and most terrify us and maybe disgust us but still recognize that they're actually humans? They are, they too are humans who were once babies, who came into the world with just as much light in their eyes as you did, that, that grew, and as they were growing, had just as much of a desire and a desire for freedom as you did. And whatever the, whatever wounding happened, whatever the, whatever it was that ended up shaping them to become who they are and doing what they're doing right now, probably would've been what happened to us if we had actually had their exact same experience. And I know that that's a real hard thing to ask for people. I, I had a conversation with a trans man at the conference that we were at, Vincent, who when I, when I said

Efrain: 36:57

What conference was this?

Gregory: 36:59

This is this thing, the Big Ten Summit, where, a group of folks who were supporting men were getting together and, and I, I said that to him, and he just stopped and he said,"I don't know if I'm ready for that." I was like, "I get it. Like, I totally get it," you know? And like there's something there if we wanna get to this, to this place, I think we have to unwind all of this stuff inside of us. And so it's, it's, it's big work, which is why I think it's lifetime work.

Vincent Perez: 37:22

I think it's part of my analytical mind, but this work requires an analysis, right, of domination and control of all forms of systems. What's fascinating for me about this exploration through the Men's Healing Network in the last year is that the work is kind of racially siloed, is what I've discovered. The grief work is, in kind of a well-to-do white men community. The re-entry work, 'cause who's locked up, right? Men of color, mostly Black men are doing the re-entry work. I guess the veteran space, that's multi, you know, ethnic. but you know, there's like Black men from Seattle to Tacoma in a kind of a fraternity serving Black boys and men. There's a bunch of Chicanos, a group that I'm part of with the National Compadres Network, planning our own Retiro, like our own little retreat. And so I'm part of this too, but like I, I do wanna bring this analysis of like that's interesting to me of just why is this even in men's work? Is this racial, siloing that's happening? I'm curious for you, right, in your work, and if we're all in this other DEI field, that I think has all of these connections to, systems of domination and control, racial patriarchy, all, all of the rest. I'm curious, on the way out here is do you, what do you do with all of that?

Gregory: 38:36

I talk to my friend and, teacher, Aaron Johnson about this on occasion. He's a Black bodied man and, you know, he works with Black men and he works b- with Black men around touch. He has, you know, a great project called the, the Chronically Undertouched Project, among other things that he does. some great films around that."Dark and Tender," is fantastic work. and We've talked about, like, what is it to bring white men and Black men together to do that work? and part of what it takes is a lot of work. Like, it takes a lot of work -- Because the legacy of violence between white men and Black men is so massive, right? it typically goes in one direction, if you really look at the history of it. And so how to create the safety that allows, for that work to happen at the level, the depths it needs to happen, I think that's, big work, and it's probably gonna happen in small containers. It's not gonna happen at a, national scale for some time, right? But in, in small containers of groups of six or eight men who are intentionally working towards that, I think there's, a lot of possibility. And hopefully the, the field data will start showing that, 'cause that's, that is stuff that we're starting to talk about doing.

Vincent Perez: 39:43

And how you, Efrain? Navigating your multiple identities, right? In the States and immigrant and all of the other things.-- Where has that led you?

Efrain: 39:52

I think there is value in having spaces where people share identity What has always bugged me a little bit, or I've always questioned, is particularly coming from Mexico and class being an important component of how Mexican society is organized, unfortunately. I feel like we over-indexed. I didn't feel comfortable with only leading with people's racial identity or even, like, sexual orientation as something that would define if somebody was in and out or something, of something. Because there is still a lot of class play that is not taken into account and intentionally addressed in our movements. And then it all becomes very binary in talking about the patriarchy. So you're either Latino or not, and if you're not, you don't understand me 'cause you're white, and there is truth to that. I don't wanna say, again, Greg, I really love that you brought this idea that we're, why can't we just-- we're just human. But I do think there is lack of nuance, and particularly in the United States of America, there is comfort in binaries. There is two parties. There is, you're a friend or an enemy. we're the best and you're not. I challenge us to, as we create whatever kind of space we create, that we have a bit of, more of a, of intentionality around class and around other issues. And we also start to understand when people are Just sitting in, in an identity or in a, in a way of seeing themselves and others to not take their own accountability and do their own work. And this can happen everywhere. It's not particularly for, for some people or not, but from the people of color side, me as Latino can be like,"Well, you don't understand me 'cause you're a white man," but then I don't get into what you said, and you're still somebody that said something to me. Depending on the situation, I like creating containers and places where people can actually have the conversation, that conversation. And also sometimes white folk are like, "Well, I don't understand'cause I don't have your experience," which is kinda what I've been trying to frame in this conversation differently, which is straight and gay, we're in the same prison. I see the value in the separation and the understanding, but there is also some caution in me, what is very dangerous, in my opinion, is that I, as a Mexican person that came to the United States with a certain level of privilege because I came to study my master's, assume that I can in any way understand the situation of young Latinos in South LA just because we both speak Spanish and come from the same country. I don't. There has to be a lot more nuance, and just making it binary kind of bothers me

Vincent Perez: 42:51

I feel like I've been learning from the young people, especially as I, as I age. Like, squash the binaries. Squash the binaries. Like, just what are we doing? What are we doing anymore? Why? And that's, that's what they're just like, "What? Why? This is, this is no u- this is not help- this is not helping us. This is not…"

Efrain: 43:06

Some binaries are important to have.

Vincent Perez: 43:08

Yeah

Efrain: 43:10

That's the other thing, right? Like sometimes when you need to make decisions, you need yes or no. You wanna go to this restaurant or not? No.

Gregory: 43:20

we have to start somewhere too, right? And we have to, like, meet people where they're at in order to get them to walk in the door. It's always a question I'm asking is, like, what's gonna help a man walk into the circle, 'Cause I want, I want a man to walk into the circle, and so that he can then be challenged, challenge himself, and go down the path, so I think there's a way in which the spectrum of this conversation, I mean, it's been a wide-ranging conversation, but there's a way in which it's, it kind of in some ways shows the winding nature of this path.

Vincent Perez: 43:49

I, I automatically wanna answer your question. It's like to see, to, to be seen, to be heard, to hear, to connect. Like, what, what is gonna lead a man into the circle? I'm, back to connection. I'm deeply, deeply grateful for this, y'all. Thank you for making time. I'm excited to deepen this relationship, and the fact that I get to meet folks through this process is so beautiful to me. I'm so in love with this project. and a- anything here on the way out is, if any, any last kind of messages that you think is important for, especially in this kind of very complex conversation we're having or just examining lots of systems or considering all of that. Any message you wanna offer for our listeners?

Gregory: 44:28

I don't know if I have a message other than just a deep gratitude for their listening, a deep gratitude, Vincent, and to get invited to, to come and speak with you and do this, and a deep gratitude to you, Efrain, for accepting the invitation and then just coming in as wholeheartedly as I knew you would. I, I feel like I learned something and I see something new in myself and, and I hope that, that is true of anyone listening to this.

Vincent Perez: 44:54

Efrain, you wanna close us out?

Efrain: 44:55

I think Bell Hooks', book"The Will to Change" just the title tells you how we get out of this mess in very few words. So I always just try to invite men to be willing to change, and I really don't need to add much Whatever that means to you, that you know will get you to better relationships with self and with those, who love you and who you love. and I also just wanna thank you, Vincent. I think it's a wonderful idea to have somebody invite another person. I, I really love that. I think it, creates lineages or it creates just like, network that you don't control. And it's, it also takes bravery to do that because you don't know the people, half of the people that you're gonna be talking to and what they're gonna say. So I appreciate it, and I appreciate the space, and I'm grateful for the invitation, and I learned from you both, so thank you.

Vincent Perez: 45:51

What a blessing. Thank you so much I'm so grateful to Gregory and Efrain for the conversation that challenged us to think beyond the question of what it means to be a man and toward a deeper question of what it means to be more fully human. We talked about the parts of ourselves we learned to hide, the expectations that shape us as boys and men, and the courage it can take to reclaim what was lost along the way. But we also heard an important reminder. This work does not happen alone. We become more fully ourselves through relationship by listening, being witness, staying curious, and making room for one another's humanity. Maybe the invitation from this conversation is a simple one. Notice where you're still performing instead of becoming. Notice where you want more freedom, and consider who you might invite into that exploration with you. The Men's Healing Network Podcast is made possible with support from the Choice Regional Health Network. The podcast is produced by Tom Keppeler with marketing support from Dee Enriquez. To learn more about the Men's Healing Network, visit us online at mhn.life. Thank you for listening. Until next time, take care of yourself and take care of each other. Blessings to you and yours.