Civil Marriage in Halacha

Even Haezer 1:74. Rav Moshe challengers Rav Henkin's view on the halachic impact of civil marriage. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Let's get started. Okay. I also put two more chuvas added on at the back, which we'll touch on shortly, but biker cement ion dollar. And the uh chuva is was written June 28th, 1959, to a Rav Bensin Goldswig, who I don't know who that is. Clearly a cast of Ruff who I most refers to as Rafa Goinhamforsa. But I cannot find any information about him. Okay, so here's the shall. A woman comes to this Goldsweig from Hungary, which was under Soviet rule at the time of this incident, and she says as follows. She says, I lived with a man for a certain amount of time without any Jewish wedding, no kadushin. Jewish man? What? Jewish man, Jewish woman, Jewish man. They had a civil marriage license. There was no Kenyan, there was no Miser, just the signature of the government bureaucrat. And they lived as husband and wife, so to speak. Not alakic husband and wife, or maybe, we'll see. And after some time, they agreed to part ways. And they go back to the government office and they file out what's called divorce paperwork. And they move on with their lives. He goes somewhere, we don't know his whereabouts, and she immigrates to Canada. Now, she says that at the time in Hungary they didn't know of any religious Jews, they didn't know any Jewish rabbis, they practiced literally nothing. They're completely uh unaffiliated. Um, fine. So now she comes to Canada. I guess she doesn't say she's a Balastuva, but apparently she cares what a rub has to say. So I guess there's some level of Balastchuva. And the question is, is she allowed to remarry without a get? She was quote unquote married. Um is this civil marriage enough to create a problem that she would potentially need a get?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Uh civil marriage over a beal.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

So well, it's you're gonna see it's nothing to do with the civil marriage. Well, not nothing to do with the civil marriage, but Avada it's the bia. But we'll see, but we might need the civil marriage. We'll see. As a gila doubt, it's to what the beal is. Um now the Shayel points out that she's a very young woman, and we know that Khazar very much clears for Takana for Agunas, and if we say she can't marry, she's Mamash Naguna, because we don't know where her husband is. Um and there's also a concern that if we say no, she'll just you know turn her back on Yirishka and she'll go like Keris. Um and the Shayle himself says he's Knight de Lahatir, but he asks Romisha for uh for his uh his view on the matter. Now, it's important to uh keep in mind that while this shilo is technically addressed to a sp for a specific Hungarian woman, um it's it's very much not a one-off shilo. The question of civil marriage, also keep in mind, civil marriage was a relatively new concept at the time. I don't know exactly, but for most of history, what we're seeing the discussion of the Rishanium, it always almost always involved, the Shilas involved a religious marriage, Christian marriage, a Catholic marriage, civil marriage is a relatively new concept. Um, and it's an incredibly important one in the 1950s in the United States, as you know, Yiddishkaid and Shneer Salaha is starting to really take fold in is that the right expression in the United States. Um and this this where whichever way you land on this question of civil marriage is gonna have an impact in the Shile of Agunas and the Shile of Mamzairs, right? For example, if you have a Balshuva who is a product of a woman who has been married civilly twice, or you know, from yeah, married civilly, I mean the second the fact that the second marriage is civil is not gonna matter, but let's just say a second marriage, um then she's a momzair if you say the civil marriage is because they didn't get a gad, they weren't religious, right? So you have potential momseris. So this is a huge, huge shilo. You know, last week we did, you know, Hall of Stalin, which people think is the Shiloh that Ramosha dealt with, but the reality is this is is is really serious. This is this is dairy dairy of Khalisar impacted by this by this Shiloh. It's also important to know that Ramosha was not the first person to deal with this Shiloh, um, not in the United States. Riv Hankin had dealt with this Shiloh at least 20 years earlier. Ravh Hankin, as we'll see, came out in the Khumra. Um so Ramosha's now faced with this pretty much the same style.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Considering a marriage, no good, no good get them. She's also um because he can't find the husband in this case.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yep, go find the husband, yeah. Um or prove that he's dead, yeah. Um so Remisha could have said, you know, we had a couple of options. He could have said, Kabar by Razakin. The Shiloh has already been answered. That's not Romisha's style. He never would have said that. He could have just, you know, given a psac that he feels, put it in his Igris Mysha, and let the chips fall where they may. But what Ravmeisha chooses to do, I think it's pretty clear that Ravmisha chooses as the monarch of Kalliastral to take the Shiloh on head on, to come out with his psych loud and clear, over and over and over again. There are probably at least a dozen shuvash in Igris Mysha that have a similar topic, and he lands in the same spot every time. He mentions Rav Hankin by name every single time, and he argues, as we'll see with Romankin every single time. It seems pretty clear that Remisha knew exactly what he was doing, and it was very much intentional with this sock. Okay. So Saj Remisha, what's the let's get to the Halakh analysis? Remosha starts off. He says, if she's saying the truth, yeah, in the in the first paragraph on the second column, he had Embus could go around. If she's saying the truth, um, there's no mice of cadution, right? There's no execution. Even if when they went to the government office there were two kosher aidem or two thousand kosher aidim, doesn't matter. It's not a maestution. You can have you can have aidim, right? And nobody disagree, nobody from hanging on to disagree. That's not that's not a mice institution. We know there are three ways of conducive and that's a government form, it's not one of them. So what's the shy? The shahlah is, because as you pointed out, it's asked if they fill out the form and say they're husband and wife. What happens? They go home and they live like husband and wife. And assuming there are kosher eidem in the neighborhood, they see the two, a husband and wife, go into the house, you know, day after day. They see yiqhod. We know hey and heidi ihr and hid and aid. We know what's happening there. And the Gomorrah says it's a chazaka in Adam A'sabi, as nursed. If a man is living with a woman, there's a khazaka that he wants to do it for kadushid. He doesn't want to have a BS Nuss, just a BS Nus to Alma. He wants it for kadush. Especially when they're still married, that's how it's only because they have they only because the Shaila only comes up because we know that they're civilly married. I mean they're they're showing, there's a gila that means every time a boyfriend and a girlfriend have ihr or verse, right? There's no ain't on the mighty less and be less nuts. It's not a shaila. Yeah, I mean there's some maybe some she's in a reshant otherwise, but definitely not passed in that way. It has to be in certain cases, either if it's if it's a grusha, there's a certain familiarity, right? Uh uh if you're Makadish Patanay, there's a third example that I'm losing, um, I'm forgetting about. But the Gamar gives three specific examples with a certain close connection, and clearly civil marriage would be would be this very close connection where they're saying we're married, it's just technically not a kadush. Okay. So how do we analyze this this question? This hazak of it and might be lessabus. So everybody starts from a khagishain. Basically, quotes a Rajba. The Rajbah had a case where there was a woman who was alleged to be single and she gets married to Shimon. Yeah? And she lives with Shimon, and it turns out actually, she wasn't really single. She was previously married to Ruven, and she never got a get got a get from Rufein. So she goes back to her ex- what we thought was her ex-husband, or I don't know exactly what the first husband, and says, uh, insurance, could you give me a get? He says, No problem. He gives her a get, right? Now, she ava the halachli is not allowed to go back to Shimon because she's a Saita. She was Mizana, she was an issue. She's not allowed to go back. But she goes back to Shimon without a new wedding. No, no new kadush. She just goes back as if nothing happened, right? So the Shiloh is, is she married to Shimon? About the caducius typeson, typesin on a on a on a site that she's nibbula, no shiloh. Of course, the question is, there was no mice of caducean. Do we say that the yield slash viah that they had after she got the get is a mice kadush? Do we say Hazakhain and the Maice Blasabila's Nuss? Why wouldn't you say it? Well, you wouldn't say it because this clearly, these people don't care about halacha. This is a woman who the the the act she's doing is clearly Asir, the Halacha. So you can tell me Hazakha Inal the Maï Sabi Lashabila's Nuss. This woman's this woman's an ice farf. She's she's she's living with it, she's living in sin.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

The same mice that she did a condition shows that she does want to be married. In other words, she wasn't if she just wanted to do mice as well, but she wouldn't be able to do that. She don't want to be anxious. I would say that at the same time that that proves she's not bin Allah get to uh order declusion. But the Maisa Transhina. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

So you so maybe, let's see what the Rajva says. Like you, the Rajma says, basically, people are complicated.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Just because she's she's willing to live in sin doesn't mean the Rosh had this other share child. Yeah. People who are mocked by the say Krishna not transfilling. Right, right. Right, right. Exactly. Right. You gotta be telling it says Krishna.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

People are complicated, exactly, right? So people are complicated. Sure, she's not mocked but on the site, but she wants given the choice, why not? Be married, be married, at least let Nara be a B's Nas Baalma. Right? And that's how the Rajma holds. Okay, so clearly the Rajmah holds. If someone doesn't keep the rules, we still have a principle that the May Sabi Lassa is not. Yeah? So we have the Radvaz. The Radvaz says if someone is boy on Nidah, there's no then of there's no Khazakh anymore of any of the May Sa bi Lasab's Nas. And it's not just the Radvaz that preceded him. It's really really.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Even with the Kedush or something else that proved they want to be married.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Even well, don't hold Kiddha. There's no Kazakh. There's no an a-sahad.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Even if we know they want to be married, but there's no khazak on the Biafra. Because she's an Ida, clearly. He doesn't care about anything. He's being violent. Yeah. So so so uh so the Abnim alum. The Ribash says the same thing. Um at length, the Ribash of the Long Chuba, um, discuss a lot of different sparas, maybe we'll touch on some of them, but that's the ultimate exclusion that by an idea, there's no different kazak in here, the must he be licensed yes and us. So the Avni Bilum says that this idea, is there a Khazakh? When someone's violating Allah, Khazman is we have the Ribash on one side with the Ridvaz and Akhmar, and we have the the Rahm on the other side. So how do we pass consistent says? Shaqarach and Kufm Tess says that if you have a couple that was forced to convert, yeah, and get married, and they and if they convert to another religion, to another religion. We don't force another religion, they force another religion, and they get married via chukasakusin, the the Shaqanarach says, and the lost of the Shachnarch is that they have a Yikud Bekal Yayim Lafnehakal, they have yikrud every single day in front of everyone, everyone sees them. There's no kadush because no because no, they're forced, they weren't forced to get married, they were forced not to use a yidish kadush and they just forces you to get married. They were forced to be married before the men. They were forced to forced to become Christians and they get married the Christian way, and now they're and now they're living in a call ambeidah every single day with igod. There's no khazaka in al-Maisabi Wasabi Osmaz. Yeah? Because they don't, because they're Hakimalachas, they're they're mumm and they went off, they went off, they went off the dark, yeah. And the Ramah in Chad, the Rab, the Ramah Almak's spakh is bat's into Chadvah, where the Ramah says the same thing for a mummer who marries a mummaris, and later the Khaizer Batshuvah to say they're not married, they have to have another another another another condition.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

This is a religious marriage, by the way. I was pointing to an Afghina right away. Yeah. The conversion and the marriage was a irreligious.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

A religious I'm just saying a religious man. A religious man. But there's chaira shouldn't be a difference, because remember, the marriage itself is not going to be a valid Kenya. There's no the only thing is the Bia is a valid Kenya, right? The marriage ceremony is zikar not a Kenya, right? It's all a question of Gilidas. L'haira, it's hard to differentiate between a Catholic wedding and a civil wedding. You could maybe, and maybe we'll see some stars. But on the surface, it seems like it's the same thing. They're showing they want to be married to husband and wife, but they're not doing what they're not following the first mission and condition. Okay, fine. So the chair, it seems like the and the grah is also Maduik like the rebush. So we have the Shavanar, we have the Ramah, we have the Grah, they possibly like the Rebush. So in our case, uh, we're obviously this woman clearly did not keep Hilkiz Nidah right, just take an easy example, right? She says if she'd kept Nidah and the mikfah, she would have met some from people, she would have learned about Rabanim, and she says she knew nothing, she knew nobody, obviously she didn't go to the Mikfadib, she'd say it outright. So there's no different than the Rebush's case, and there would be no Kadush. So what's the problem? The problem is if there's a Khakhiz Mikhaik. If the Khalkhiz Mikhaik says, and Simon Simmon, uh I think it's a chahak.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

She didn't know versus the Hachizmore versus maybe. I don't I'm not I don't getting from the true until now. Any inkling answer was the sounds more like it was a matter of circumstances.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Well it's a matter of circumstance, it's like an in-between. It's a matter of circumstance, but she wasn't forced, she just she was always that way. It wasn't like yeah, but we're gonna see if the mark in a second. So, okay, so the Khalik's Mikhaikik. They were talking about people who might be forced to convert, like they you know, uh like in Spain and in the 15th century, right? Um and they keep mitzvah spitsina, that they to the extent they can, to the extent they can. They know they're not Sadikim, but the extent they can. And they marry Bakhuka's Hanachrim, they get married through secular marriage or Christian marriage, says the says the uh whether um chaich is for a kadush, for the if the that the bea was a valid kadush, and I might be lost to the else nus, or the frat and haiun is harabinida, especially if they kelp to chasmidah says the wish, especially if they killed the chasmida. That means if they didn't, the khakis of khaker still has his suffering. Even if they didn't keep me to still have it. And what's his conclusion? He's Machmer in the end. The Khalkhazi Khakik is Machmer. Um that it's considered a Kadush. They know Khazak and I might be lost to Yasnut. Says the Khalkhil Khakik, because the reason they're not Machman Anita, it's hard, it's difficult, there's no mikvas around. They're on Nusim, like, you know, so just because they're not Machman Anita doesn't prove that they don't want to be their their beer to be a valid Bia's marriage, right? So maybe, say in our case, touching on what you were saying, it's other fault. There's no Hungary, this is Soviet is under Soviet rule in the 1950s. You know, they didn't have they didn't have accessibility, so just because she doesn't keep Nita doesn't mean maybe that she doesn't want that she that she wants her beat to be a bia's. So now, says her Monsha, let's understand the logic of the Khalkenduch. Yeah, the Khakenbuch has an amazing ride for the Gomoran Hulin. Because the Gomaran Kulin is talking about someone who is an ivreaver when it comes to humans, meaning he eats humans on Pesach. It's a pretty serious itzer, right? He eats humans on Pesach, and the Gomorrah's ultimate conclusion is that Khammits out of love pasach, we assume he probably swapped it with the guy. So I think we're talking about the Tiavan, I think. I don't remember exactly. Ask the Rah before you rely on his hand, right? So we assume he swapped it with the guy. We assume he swapped it with the guy, because it's so easy to swap humans with a guy. Why would and everybody not have the humit? So this is Mamash a ride to this is a riot. Can I get the it's more than a right to look, it's right, can I get the rebush? It brings the life of the Raj with the Khara, people are complicated. This guy's eating Khammads, you're eating Shakaris. And yet he assumes that he finds some way to you know to get around Israel Human Shah Kasah. Yeah, and it's a kasha and the rebush. So how do you explain the ribush? Says Ramish an amazing sevarian. He says marriage is completely different. Now, to illustrate that, there's Ramah. The Ramah says that if a woman is huch as she's known that she doesn't care. There's no chazak and the mice be lasables. And the khak of says not a word. Sounds like he agrees. Sounds like everybody agrees. Yeah? Now, what? Everyone, nobody, nobody says, nobody ever, nobody speaks up with the arguments with nobody that we know not the khakismuch. Well, we should say the same smart. People are complicated. Yeah, she's huhsacal as n us. But when she finds the guy, she wants to marry him. She was she wants. She ain't all the mice to be lost a beal's nose. Why don't we say the same smart? Says your myself. Avad of the chazakov, ain't on the nose, is emislamita. Of course it's a real chazak. The problem is marriage requires something else. Marriage requires aidus. Now, aidan, when they're looking at the situation, when they see a qashra yin, a kushra man, and a kushera girl keeping hilkes needed, they say, Aid of the miceabil is us. We see a misekedush. We see yichin, this is a mice keducian. This is a mice caducian, right? But if they see someone who's dust, they go, huh? I don't know, Aidam's us.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

It's not such a compelling argument. Yes. The aid is is by default not a good. You can see a miceh, everything. Yeah, we would say.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Yeah. And um says what what if the what if the aidem are khabidah? And they know Ain of the Mustabilh Siddharth's. But the guy, the the guy marrying the woman, doesn't know that they aid him know. He thinks the aidum don't understand this is my kadush. They know I'm not keeping health and either. Or they know she's not, she's a Mufkaris, uh, so there's no Mike's Kedusha, because he knows that they aid them know that he's not doing Kaddusha. And there's Ramisha, even if Klappish Maya the Takah has a mind, right? Even if Klappi Shmaya, if everybody has them, well, if everyone has a mind, no problem. But even if the aid him, if the if Klappi Shemayya he had good intentions, but if the aidum don't know that they know that they know, right? Like it just keeps going forever, right? So that's that's the Psha'n Ramah. Says Ramaysah that's also Psha'hana Rimah, right? When you have anusim who are violating well, I'm loosened as barring stuff from the Khan's. When you have people who are violing halakhas, the Anan Sahadi that's included in this chazaka, the Aidan don't see it. They don't see this anan sahadi, right? And even if you just violate Isr Nidha, the Aidan say, I don't know, these people they're getting married in the same Kadusha. Ain't all the mice to be lost if you listen less. It's a hard argument to make when you're dealing with someone who doesn't keep Iqh Nidha. Fine. So you may know you no longer have Aidan to be made on the Maïsa Kedush. Okay. Now Helk and Machikik, though. The Helkins Mikhaik was the one who said in a case where they're keeping all the rules to the extent they can, but maybe not Nika. That's where he's a little nervous. He's not willing to go as far as the Rivash and say, just because you're needed, it's out. Maybe there that you see someone, they're trying hard, and that they can, maybe the aidum there will say, you know what? Ain't no the mice to be lost to be listen. The aid of Takassiya mice a kadush. And that's where the Helkinsoph and he's machine. Yeah, but says Remusha, even if you go with the Khakaz Mikhaikake, yeah, that's only the lush is, Imnoi Da alayhem show you shame of mitzvah. That you know, the Adam know that this guy keeps mitzvahs. But if you have someone who you don't know about, you just don't know if this is the type of person who you don't know what their secret life is, you don't know if secretly they're they're they're trying to be good Jews, implication is there's no more anan Sahadi. Because again, it's all about what the aid doesn't matter, it's just what she says. It doesn't matter if this couple taka does does do the best they can. If the aid them don't know they do the best they can, there's no aids because no anan sahadi, and the male is no caduce. Fine. So therefore comes Allah that ain't al Kapanama non-sahad is no more non-sahadi, and this woman al Khara should be free to marry. But the problem is that we have her hanken. Yeah, we have her hankin and we must contend with it. And hankin in a safer uh Pirusha Evra. Yeah, he argues he has a whole totally different understanding of what kadush is. To have to have a A S you don't need Kadusha in Mitz. It's not what Ades of Kadushin is. You need intent, like the take is lush, sh ishazu lokakh shia loy le isha. And he takes her as a wife. And a civil marriage, of course, when you write down that she's my husband, civil marriage, that's nothing yet, but it shows us exactly what he wants. Not Kedusha Kidas May Shabisra. Marriage. Marriage, right? And that is something, right? Now the clergy is around. You need a castle, you need a ring, you need something. So, so so um fine. So how does Ramash explain? How does uh Rahaker explain the Rivash? So the re Rah says the Rivash is talking about not Mumrim who didn't keep halachas, mumram who didn't believe in the institution of marriage. Mumrin who just thought marriage is this is a thing you do, and the woman is still can do whatever she wants. She's Mukkaris Lakala, that's what Mumrim means. Alternatively, maybe it means the Aidim Ramrim. He throws out that svara. At least that's the way Ramash calls that. So Rimash says, I love the svar. I like it, I like the I like the Khab Rahik, but it doesn't stim, it doesn't stim in the Sudhism Gemara, and it certainly doesn't stim in the words of the Rivash. The Rivash is it doesn't say anything like that. Um and the Rivash says, Alashan, of if the person doesn't care about mikvah, why would they care about Biaz Nus? That's not according to Rafen, that's not an argument. Because someone doesn't care about mikvah, they're okay with their wife just being with Karaslav Koh. Of course that's that doesn't that doesn't that doesn't make any sense, right? And she says, you have to look at the historical context. The rivash was writing his truva in Spain, which was under Catholic control. Catholic control, they didn't believe in Mukharislav Kohl. Avra, but they were more strict than us, they don't believe in divorce, right? They're far more stuff, more strict than the Yiddish marriage. So that doesn't work in Rivash Mama, you can't say that Pshaw in the Rivash. And it certainly can't be Pshat that the Aidimoral Murmin, because the Rivash doesn't say that. And if the Aidimoral Murmurman the Rivash could have a two-line truva that says the Aidimalman. There were other truvas Rahim's address. I don't know who was first. I uh Rahim was a little older, but Rahim Majin's address is it. I don't know exactly the history, but in America, Ravankin was, I think, and Ramish is certainly every truva picks on Rahankin, every single one. Um, okay. So it's clear from the Rivash, as we said, that someone who doesn't keep Hil Khasnida, a Vada is no chazak of any of the mice, ain't no mice of Allah Sabila's Nus, and therefore the woman is not considered allah married, and the civil marriage that they perform is a giloidas that they want to be civilly married. The Sue Loi Midi. They don't want it, it doesn't have anything to do with Kaddusha. It's interesting. You look at Ramasha, you know, Shay was khacham Khati Chuba. If you look at the opening paragraph from Risha, you know right away where he's gonna land, because he never says the word kadushin, and he never says the word garishin. He says they they were together, then they were in parade, they separated. Clearly, Rachel said Gaiushin is not Hebrew for divorce. Gaiushin is a parshan of the tyra. Kadusha is not even for marriage, right? And of course, you know, of course, I'm hanging his mask into that, but you you know exactly where where uh where Mish is at it. Fine. It says Remisha, this is all the more so. All the more so does the Svara fail that just because someone wants a civil marriage that's the Giladoph, they want a halachic marriage, where the civil marriage has rules that are actually better for easier for the couple, meaning, how do you get out of a civil divorce? One side, one party could say, you just come in. Obviously, it depends on you know no fault laws of the khulu, they keep changing, but the uh biker, one side could just back out of marriage. And you just have we can't. The woman needs a get, and the husband has khair renegation. Right? It's much more covered. So just because someone wants a civil marriage, where is there any gil das to say that they want a halakhic marriage, right? And he says, and when he says again, points out to the Shuchan Arch. And his lush is the Miyakid, Bikolya Muflayako, something like that, right? Every day in front of everyone. He's telling you that Aiden was kasher, they're not like they were all mumrim. They're talking about with the Aidan word kasher, it doesn't in front of everybody in front of a thousand mumrim. That's what the Shochan Arch coming to tell. Of course not. Real Kasharain, it doesn't matter, and therefore, bottom line says R Mysha, if a woman, if a woman doesn't keep uh Hilchasnida, then Avadah, the Rivash, and the Ridvaz and the Shahrakh and the Ramah all say that there's no Hazakh in Noisibilh Sabi Las Nuss. And Risha throws in another Sfarah. If a couple gets married, right, and in Russianly they live amongst Psulim, right? For six months they're living in a non-Jewish neighbor, a non-religion neighborhood, not one Kashara eight saw them have yiqh. So all theirs that they were doing for six months, zikhrabi's nus. Right? Zikhrabi's nus. So now they move to a from neighborhood and all of a sudden they have aidum. So now we're gonna say Khazakh Aidam Isa Bulla says nus. No announc's a hadith, and Maurisha says Rahenka would agree with me. Frank would not so clear Hangan would agree. And there are a few times Remisha says Hagen agrees, and people find out actually Rohanka didn't agree. But it just shows you when Ramaisha says Rohankin, so if Ramaisha in this case found a way to say that he can come up that even Rohanka would agree. Why is he talking about Rahankin? Just why does he have to argue with Rohankin? He's going out of his way to argue with Rohankin because he's not trying to passkin this shell only. He's trying to pass in this shilo for everybody. Every time this issue comes up with civil marriage, it's not a condition. That it's clear that's what he's doing, I think. Um, Remisha cautions at the end. Um, no, so first Remaisha says, if you can, get a get. Of course. Get a get if you can't. But if you can't, which it sounds like is the case here, then you don't have to. And again, he throws in another svara. Um he goes back to his svara that because um halachic divorce is more Hummer than civil divorce, because civil divorce one party can just back out, so even Raminkin would be masking. But again, he throws even Ravenkin would be masking. So again, he finds another reason why Rahinkin would be masking in this particular case, but Remisha's caution, so you have to make sure her story is true. Because in the where she lived in Hongary, says Remosha, many people managed to have Halachic condition somewhere on the black market, but they did it, they pulled it off. So there does exist a possibility that she's lying to us. Now, if the only reason we know she was ever married to the first place is on the basis of her testimony, especially there's no shiloh at all. But if we happen to know any way she's married, just do your diligence, make sure she's saying the truth. And Ramosha has a good way to say to tell if she's telling the truth. It's on any of the forums that says that either he or she was a communist, you know she's saying the truth. Because the communist zikr didn't do any kiddusha tyrants. Yeah? Yeah. Remisha, you know, saw communism uh up close and personal. He knew it very well. Yeah? Fine. Um at the end of the chuva, the guy says maybe she hasn't been pilagish, and maybe a pileagish yet. Or Mysha says, any p. Does not require a gut. And goes through a little bit of a richas with the Raman. Fine, so you don't have to worry about that. Um and that is the end of this truva. That is the conclusion. I'll just say that um I attached two more chuvas. Again, it comes up a dozen times, but he did put these two next to the first one, so we'll we'll just quote it. Um the next chuva was two years later. It was an on-again, off-again couple where the woman eventually ends up in Los Angeles. Uh she becomes a Vahel's Tchuva, and her money she says, starts off, get a guess like Ravenka. But if she can't get a guess, it's fine because we passing like the revush. And and um uh and yeah, and nobody would in and in a case like this, he says, I think I think he wants to say even Ravenka would agree because she momish kept nothing. Shuh, okay, I'm not sure exactly. And the third case is one that comes up, comes up obviously very often in Remisha's Shuvas, is the case of a reform wedding. And in a reform wedding, actually, this truth was actually written four years before all these chuvas. Yeah, there Remisha says a reform wedding is the best, the best for getting out of making sure it's not a marriage. Because there, even Rimhainka would agree why? Because the couple of vad that doesn't intend for their bea to be a bea's kadusha. Because they think the chassana was a kidusha. They had a guy get up, the guy said he's a rabbi, he says, I hereby proclaim you husband and wife. The woman and the man think, oh, there's a Khalai's Kedusha. Little do they know that Reform Kadusha is completely invalid, they had a touring ceremony, whatever they did, is a vada, not a kadush. So of course, even Rim Haikan would be masking that in a reform wedding. They, their their kavana was that the the the wedding was the was the kingdom, and it wasn't. So every beer they do a vow that they don't have a mind the shainkadusha, and they're for sure she's later we married without a gap, but pays can do say that even Remake was still still arguing. And what's the postcript? The postcript, as far as I see it, obviously Ask a Rabedi Al-Ahanshailas, is that Ramosha went to war over this and he won. Without a doubt, he won. There's nobody that I know of that is Machman the Shaila. That everyone passed like Ramosha. I saw the official policy about the Dina Marriage is stroll, is like this Ramosh, that if you can get a get, you could, you get one, but if you can't, civil marriage is absolutely not conditional. And Ramisha was successful in saving dairy deris of Kalystra, keeping them in the in in, you know, saving the equals of dairy deris of Kali Stroll that uh they're not considered Mabzer and they can marry and live uh happily ever after.