The Affair That Saved Us: Episode 1 - Our Story

The Affair That Saved Us is a raw, honest podcast hosted by Arly and Amber. They’re a married couple navigating life 10 years after infidelity nearly ended their marriage. In this debut episode, they share their full story: from Amber's discovery of not one but two affairs, to the gaslighting, the relapse, a second separation, and ultimately the turning point that set them on a path to genuine healing. This isn't a rescue operation or a how-to guide. It’s two people telling the real, unfiltered version of what it looks like to walk through betrayal, rebuild trust, and find hope on the other side. If you've ever felt like your world imploded and couldn't find north, this one's for you.

The Affair That Saved Us is hosted by Amber and Arly . They’re a real couple sharing a real story. This podcast is not a substitute for professional therapy or counseling. If you or someone you love is navigating infidelity, we encourage you to seek support from a qualified professional.

Whatever your piece of this looks like, you're not as alone in it as it feels.

Have a question, a story, or something you want us to talk about? We want to hear from you. info@theaffairthatsavedus.com

If you're ready to work with Arly one-on-one, scheduling is available at arlysmart.com

Transcript

0:01

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Affair That Saved Us podcast. We are glad you're here. My name is Arlie. My name is Amber. And this podcast is about telling our story, the real one, not the cleaned up version. This podcast isn't a rescue operation. So we're not here to save your relationship, tell you what to do, or hand you a roadmap. We don't have all the answers. And honestly, we'd be skeptical of anyone who claims they do. And at the end of the day, this is just two people who've been through it, talking honestly about what it's like, things that helped, things that didn't, and quite honestly, 10 years later, what we're still trying to figure out. If something resonates, take it. If it doesn't, please leave it. You know your situation better than we ever could. All right. Are you ready to do this? Ready. How are you feeling right now about this? I am very uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable. Yeah. That's good. If you had a check-in, let's say your anxiety, right, was on a scale of one to ten, one being you're kind of cool as a cucumber, ten, you're ready to crawl out of your own skin. I'm a seven. You're a seven? I think I'm probably an eight or nine. I'm really uncomfortable. I think it's because I know that there are going to be people that we know that don't know our story that are going to suddenly be introduced to it. And there's just a lot of discomfort knowing that. So my anxiety is through the roof right now. Yeah. Chest is beaten. Okay. Let's let's just get into it. Let's take it back to D-Day, what we call D-Day, Discovery Day, what that was like for you. We got all kinds of information leading up to it, but let's just go back to Discovery. Yes. So it was May 3rd of 2016, and I remember looking at a phone bill, and you had an obnoxious amount of texting to one particular number. And I wasn't even looking at the phone bill out of suspicion. I had no suspicions, no anything. I was actually looking at the phone bill for a completely different reason because we had it was back in the day when DirecTV and AT ⁇ T merged and our bill changed, but it didn't change like I thought it would. So I was looking to see what did or didn't happen that needed to. And that's when I saw a pie chart on the front of the bill that showed your texting was outrageous. And I thought, well, that's really strange. And so I started looking into it and saw that you were texting this one number like 300 times a day. Yeah, it's hard to imagine having that kind of space in your day to communicate with anyone, let alone someone you actually think about texting your spouse. But it's pretty wild. Yeah. So I thought that was really strange. And honestly, I didn't suspect an affair at all. I thought there was something wrong. I thought like spam bots or something was happening. And so I approached you about it and I thought, this is weird, you know what this number is. And I just remember your breathing pattern changed, and your one of your fingers, I think it was your pinky, was shaking as I was. And I just thought, oh, something just shifted, and I'm not really sure what it what just happened. That's a great description. I think it you're absolutely right because I remember when you approached the everything did change. Physiologically, yeah, my heart rate went through the roof. I did begin to shake. I remember feeling heat just from head to toe, the realization of, oh man, there's a lot of things that are about to happen. And there's really no way to put a cork on it at that point. It's like champagne bottles pop. And it's not a celebration. Definitely not a celebration. Yeah, that was an awful feeling. I remember sitting on the edge of the bed when you brought that to my attention, and it was like, oh boy. Oh boy. So you you lied and said, I've never texted that number, never called that number, and you were like, look, you can look at my phone. There's no history of that number. And so I thought, and leading up to it, I didn't suspect anything. And so I thought it's really strange. So I did not go to sleep that night. And I went into full research mode and found this person, their name, where they were from, all kinds of information. And the next morning I said, Hey, I'm gonna call ATT. Or I think I said, Is her name Yeah, you knew her name at that point. You're like, her name is this. And I remember thinking, I'm I'm done for. She's she's figured this out. So I did, I think I did say, Yeah, that that was her. Yeah. And I said, because I said, hey, I'm getting ready to call ATT and figure out what's up. And you and I said, but I found the number and this is her name. Do you know her? And you were like, Yeah. And then you were like, I have some things to tell you. Yeah. And then it began to unfold. And of course it was riddled with gaslighting and lying and trying to figure out ways. I couldn't think fast enough to cover up what Abadia was trying to hide. And I can't tell you that the entire time the dread running through my veins was palpable. Yeah. Yeah. And I just remember feeling complete anxiety, being very fearful, not knowing. And I just remember the next day was May 4th. And I just remember everybody on Facebook was talking about may the fourth be with you. And that was just, I just I don't know why I remember that and just being so annoyed by that. But we were able to get into our counselor the next day. Yeah, we did. We got into Dr. Kim and kind of told him what was going on. It was about as watered down as I could make it. We I there were very little details I I was not prepared to share more than necessary. I could already sense that the the pain was there in my mind at the time. It was like, well, I don't want to make things worse. I'm gonna just keep this as as neutral as possible. And yeah, the details didn't start flowing at really at all, even in the safety of a therapeutic environment. Yeah. And all I knew at the time is he is you had told me that you had met this girl and that you had been to her apartment and you had kissed. And that was it. Yeah. And to that end, that that was the extent of that particular affair. Yes. Yeah. So that was on a May 4th, and we didn't tell the kids anything because I thought, in my mind, I thought, ooh, okay, cool, we caught it before it went full-blown sexual or any further. So, in a sense, I almost felt lucky. Like, wow, cool. I'm grateful we caught this. So we then spent the weekend a lot of talking, saying, okay, we need to reconnect. I think I purchased a trip to booked us a found a really cheap trip to Hawaii and thought we just need some time away. We need to reconnect. We need to figure some things out. Because I was completely blindsided. I there we'll talk about it. There were some things in our marriage where we felt disconnected, but we did not have a bad marriage per se. Yeah, by no means. And I like to say I was completely blindsided, so I really didn't know what to think. We went through the weekend. I think you were working. Yeah, you were working all weekend. And then thinking that was the extent of it, the counselor asked, Is there any anyone else? Is there anything else? And you said no. That was the extent of it. Very convincing. And Monday morning I went to work. I think that was the ninth. The ninth, yeah. And so went to work and was working in my office and had an intern at the time that should have been in my office at the time too, but I but wasn't. So it was just me. And we were getting remodeled at the time. So it was just complete disarray construction. And my phone wasn't even anywhere near my desk. But the phone rang and I answered, walked across the room and answered it. And it was this guy, and he just said, I know you don't know me, and I'm so sorry to make this phone call. And his voice is shaking, and he sounds like he's on the verge of tears. And he's like, There's just something that you need to know. And I remember thinking, Yeah, I know. I found out last week. But I said, Okay. And he said, Your wife's or your husband's having an affair. And I thought, okay, like, I know, and I don't know why I thought to say this. I said, What is her name? And it was a completely different name. Yeah. And I remember thinking, just, I don't even, I don't know if I can go there because it's like your brain goes blank, and it's almost like you feel disassociated from the room or where you are. Great word for it, yeah. And I just remember thinking, I have to get out of this building. And so I thanked him for letting me know. And he's like, I've been trying to hunt him down. I've been trying to find him to confront him, and I can't, can't find him. And I said, no, thanks. Don't worry about it. Don't uh thank you for letting me know. And I started to leave the building, and then I thought, wait, I don't have my stuff, my computer, anything. So went back to my office, got my stuff, and then walked out of the office. And then I remember walking out of the office, looking in the parking lot, and I cry every single time. I could not remember what my car looked like. And I don't, I don't, I always think, but why do I get so choked up at that? Um, I think it's because it was like I don't know why I get so choked up at that, but just that feeling of like I don't know what reality is, I don't know who I am, I don't know where I am, I don't know what car I drive, where do I go? Who do I call? My I just remember thinking, I'm married to a monster. I thought there was one person, now there's two. I'm married to a monster. I don't even know who I'm married to. And I'm someone who had always prided myself in being able to read the environment around me really well, to read people really well, to pick up on what's not being said. And all of a sudden, I was thrown into this what felt like an out-of-body experience. And then I remember it was a really pretty day, and I remember just standing there, and then I remember thinking, okay, I know I know what my car, I remember what my car looks like, but then it was like, well, where did I park? And it was a really big parking lot, and I remember thinking, I don't know. And just kind of wandering around the parking lot until I found my car. And then I get in my car and I'm like, well, where do I go? Yeah, I can't go home. I knew the kids were going to be riding the bus home, and I didn't want them to see me this way. And honestly, I really wasn't crying or anything. I was just in shock. Shock would be a good word, complete shock. So I got and got in my car and sat for a bit, and then I called you. And I was like, who the hell is this person? And then you were like, I can explain. I can and you were like, meet me at your parents' house. Yeah. And so then I thought, okay, to my parents' house. So I drive to my parents' house, I call my dad, and he says, I'll meet you there. And then you met us there. And I remember just sitting outside. Yeah. And like zero words. Yeah. Like just complete lostness. Yes. And I just remember sitting there thinking, I have zero words. Yeah. Yeah. I remember when you made that phone call and that revelation of the like the not that the other one wasn't real, but like this was this was a real gut punch. This was like the walls really do come down, like your world implodes. There's another affair partner, and this one is just felt way more devastating. And when you made when you called, I remember I was in the middle of, I was surrounded by people, we were in the middle of a meeting. And once again, that feeling of just my entire physiologically, I just overheated and I knew I had to get out of the room. And I left work unannounced, just left, didn't tell anybody where I was going. That was when we communicated, we gotta we'll meet at your parents, which for a lot of people are probably like you went where. But we have our reasons. Your parents are wonderful human beings, and they were they just felt very safe. And they gave us that space immediately to just get our feet on the ground. I I remember sitting in those four chairs as we all just kind of looked at each other, and it was just like I I've I don't have any words for that moment because I think we just sat in silence. I know your parents were just trying to gauge the room. It was terrible. But I'm I think back on that as well, and I remember look, there's room for humor, and at this point, 10 years later, we find a lot of humor. And I remember your dad just breaking the ice as he was doing his own investigating. And he asked if he's like, you know, is this somebody who will boil a rabbit? And I had no idea what the heck he was talking about. And he was referring to Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction. Fatal Attraction. I had no idea, and I just could not register what he was chuckling at himself. It is a good joke looking back at the time, though. I was like, what are you trying to gather here? I have no words for that. And I I what I remember about leaving is that I was scared and there were there was so much left to still sip through, obviously. I don't have, if I'm being honest, I don't have a lot of clear memory after that conversation. And if I'm being honest, I don't have a whole lot of memory of being there with your parents, other than them giving us space and that that joke. That's really all I can pull from that particular event. And then I remember that was when you made one of your first moves where I refer to you as just stepping into your power, like your agency and autonomy, which I talked to all of my betrayed clients about. And you're like, you're gonna, you're gonna change your phone number. And also you're gonna tell the kids why. And I remember that being the first like real step toward owning my behavior, even though we were, it was far from over. What was it like for you to have that moment of saying you're changing your number, also you're telling the kids? Yeah. I looking back on that, obviously changing the phone number, because I remember asking you if you don't want to go be married, if you don't want to be married, leave. Yeah. And you were like, No, I don't want to leave, which is very confusing, of course. And I remember we had we went back. I remember but one really most helpful thing my parents had to say were don't make any big decisions. Yeah. Don't you feel pressured in that moment of either I gotta stay or I gotta go, and I've gotta make all these big, huge life choices right now. And they were like, just hit pause on everything. Don't make any big choices. And it's kind of just let the dust settle and let's figure out what we're dealing with, but don't make any big changes or choices. So we went back home and the kids at the time were pretty little. What were they like seven, fourteen, sixteen? Yeah, I think the two older ones were in their teens. And I just, A, you're gonna change your phone number because you can't be talking to this. If you're if this is if you want to stay in this family and you want to try to work this out, you they can't know your phone number. That's right. So I was like, go change your phone number and then tell the kids. Now, obviously detail appropriate, but and I don't, I when I think about that, it wasn't even like I want you to feel shame. I just knew this is going to completely w wreak havoc on our family. And I'm not, this isn't gonna be the new secret. I'm not gonna lie to them and tell them we're good or make up some lie as to why you had to figure out why is dad changing his phone number. I was like, your affair is not the new secret. You've been leave living a secret life. Yeah. And that stops now. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's one of the most powerful things that I take into my practice with clients. And I think every couple is different. Every affair, while the pain is the same, every affair is nuanced. But the one thing I take is you have a choice here, and that is whether or not this secret becomes your next secret. Not everyone is willing to take that step of letting other people know. And that's completely okay. For some, they just don't have safe people around them to share that. But I think that's really important, that distinction of your secret is not going to be our next family secret. And that was that was a great motivator for, I think, for the decision that you made for sure. Yeah. And I just I didn't want to coddle you or protect you from your choices. I thought, okay, well, this is the choice that you made, then this is how I want to proceed. Yeah. And obviously, we kids didn't know details or whatever, but I just said your dad has made some poor choices. Yeah. And so as a result, he's having to change his number. And things are gonna be hard for a bit while we try to figure it out. And that was, I don't know if we said more or less than that. I just remember that being the context of there wasn't names or details or no anything. No, I I remember, yeah, I just remember it was real basic. I had to be truthful again. Our older ones were 16 and 14. So they're we weren't sharing details, but I was able to tell them that I was I had been unfaithful. And each of them had their own response. As I reflect on 10 years ago, that was that's one of those experiences that I continue to that I can get real emotional thinking about as I watched my kids' eyes, watch their body language, as they began to piece together location being turned off on the phone. Or he said he had to work late, but he usually doesn't work on those evenings, or whatever it might have been, you could tell they were doing their best to piece it, and it was coming to their reality was beginning to come together of oh, this whole time. And that's something that when I reflect on, it's just it's so hard to imagine that I was capable of doing that, causing them that kind of suffering at that age. It's but it again, I think for us in our story, that was the that I don't have any regrets about that moment. I know our kids can only speak for themselves, but there's there is a I hate to use this word this early, there's a gift from that from that particular day, I think, that we can talk about in future episodes. Um, but that was definitely uh that was definitely the one of the hardest things that about discovery, telling kids. Yeah, for sure. And I've always had the stance of I would rather teach my children how to suffer well than how to stuff it or keep secrets well. It's like you will suffer. Everyone, a hundred percent of us will face something or some things throughout life that cause immense suffering. And so as a parent, that's just been something I've been passionate about. And I've always I've always told them when they were little, marry someone who suffers well, because people who don't suffer well are very difficult to be married to or do life with. So I just m part of me in this weird way just thought I have an opportunity to demonstrate for my children how to suffer well. And we're gonna do our best at that. So yeah. No, it's a it's a it's a really it's a good life lesson, the idea of suffering well and finding a mate uh that can also do that with you. Um so the second discovery happens, it's way worse than the first. The idea of thinking of me as a monster is I think is if we're being honest, it probably seems a little inadequate in the moment. I don't know if monster is a good enough word. It was a terrible, awful uh discovery. Um and so we go back to therapy, right? We call up the therapist, and I remember telling him, um, oh yeah, by the way. Way there is more. And it was almost I could hear in his voice, like, yeah, I know. Like I like, what do you think I do for a living? I he he read right through me. Um and I remember that session following was uh just all tears. I I don't remember anything that came from, but I remember seeing you on the couch, and I was I believe I was sitting in a chair and just your heartbreak. That was a really, really hard session. Um But I I think what's what's familiar about that is that in my practice I see that almost every day. Um I see these unfaithful partners come in and yeah, they're aware of what they've done. There's a difference between uh being aware, like, yeah, what I did was terrible. Uh-huh and really feeling the weight of what they've done. And that's kind of what I did. I talked to talk. We went to therapy for I don't know how long. I BS'd my way through session after session. Uh and the betrayed can knows that. Yeah, I think that's kind of that's really important to um recognize too. And I think we can dive into that definitely in other session other episodes when we talk about that intuition, which feels completely robbed. You're robbed of in the moment of discovery and your capacity to begin stepping back into it, which you did pretty early on again with the idea of the the phone and all of that. And um, but also knowing there's something more here. And there was something more there. I I was not over my affair partner. I could not get that person uh out of my mind. I there's and we'll we can talk more about that as well, but there was just an obsession there that was it completely overtook me. And uh I I was if I'm being honest, I genuinely tried with all of my might to move forward, move on, and get back into being present for the family and all of that. Uh meanwhile, just completely not there at all. And it's so disorienting. The whole experience is so disorienting. Then you're adding to it by saying, I want you, I want the family. That's right. But I can't get over, but or you wouldn't even say I can't get over this person, but I could tell you were somewhere else. Yeah. And I just like emotionally. Yeah. And you were just so disconnected and just putting forth the least amount of effort possible to be able to keep you wanted both worlds. Yeah. I it's um it's it's hard to describe because you and I, in our language today, we talk a lot about holding the tension of the opposites. And in that particular um experience, yeah, you want both worlds. You're not necessarily holding the tension. Um you're trying to figure out how you can have your cake and eat it too. And it's like, brother, no, that's not possible. And it is disor it's disorienting, I would say, for the unfaithful as well. But um no credibility there. It's all about the betrayed and what you were going through in that time. I can't imagine how confusing. It's like you're saying one thing, your behaviors tell me something else. Like the gaslighting was was off the charts. Yes. And it you've when you've been betrayed, you feel like your soul has been obliterated. Yeah. Just completely obliterated. Then you add to that, um, I don't know, I don't know where north is. Like I don't know. I remember just feeling like I was in this black pit that had slick walls, and there was nothing for me to like grab onto to get out. Yeah. Like the walls were slick. Yeah. And your strange behavior was just adding to the disorientation. But when I tuned into my gut and my intuition, it has been, it has a 100% success rate. Yes, it was. Which I was probably I looking back prior to the affair, I really self-doubt. I was full of self-doubt, or my intuition would tell me something and I would second guess it. I would be more apt to rely on others around me to confirm. Yeah. And I've since then learned I'm entrepreneurial. I see things that other people can't see. Um, I think differently than a lot of my peers. And so up until the affair, I always thought that meant that I was broken or that something was weird or off about me because I'd be like the one person in the room going, I don't see it that way, but I'm the only one. So I'm not gonna say anything. Yeah. Then I go through this experience and my intuition gets real loud, my gut gets real loud, and I don't know how to trust it. Yeah. And so I think through this process, I became in tune with that. And then as we're going through all of this disorienting time, I'm forced to rely on it. Yep. Because you're lying a hundred percent and gaslighting and nothing's making sense. And that's the only way I got through that season was it forced me almost like to develop that sense. Yeah. And to trust it. And now I trust it a thousand percent. And it's you, it's a hundred percent. It's got a great record right now. It does have a great record. But I just remember in that time thinking, my gut's telling me something is still off. Yeah. Something was. Yeah. And so I confronted you. Yeah. You I remember so that would have been was that July 14th. That was the 15th. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll dive into this because I think this is what most people who are going through affair recovery or infidelity recovery is the idea of relapse. That fear that my mate is going to go back to the affair partner. And that's exactly what happened. You uh you laid down the law. You gave me this, uh and I'll let you describe what your intentions were. Um for me, uh, in that headspace that I was in at the time, again, just being completely obsessed with my affair partner, not knowing why, just obsessed. And you gave me that, you know what? I if I remember correctly, you had packed me a bag. I packed you a bag. Yeah, and you're like, go live your life. And of course, reflecting now, I know exactly what you were doing. Um but at the time I packed that bag and I left. And I reached out to my fire partner and I said, Hey, she kicked me out. Almost like, we're free to do this thing. And the relapse occurred. Yeah, I just remember telling you you because I remember saying, make a choice. Yeah, that's right. You can't have both. Yeah. Make a choice. And you wouldn't. And I said, Okay, you don't have the courage to make this decision, so I'm making it for you. Here's your bag. Go live your life. Me and the kids will be fine. Yeah, I remember that. I it you you called out my cowardice and I stepped right into it and followed through. I affirmed exactly what you thought was gonna happen. And yeah, that the relapse occurred. And I remember your dad was trying to reach me, um, you were trying to reach me, and nothing worked. Nothing worked. Um, in fact, I remember, if I remember correctly, I was just driving all over the place. I didn't know what the hell to do at the time. And thinking back now, if you're an unfaithful who is listening to this podcast, um, and you've had this ultimatum, your objective is to spend the night in your car in the driveway if you have to. That's the test, right? Which I failed miserably. And uh yeah, took off and then met my affair partner. And uh You turned off your location. Turned off location, did all the things. We're still getting texted by uh your father, in fact, some of my family from Colorado, and then of course you were blown up my phone too. I managed to ignore all of it. Wild. It was terrible. It was the probably the lowest that was the lowest point in my entire life. In the 50 plus years I've been alive. That's that would definitely register as the lowest point. And so the next morning, I believe, you were That evening, my dad came over, and I want to get his perspective on this at some point. He came over and changed all the locks on the house for me. And I remember the kids being like, What's going on? Where's dad? What's happened, or whatever. Because it wasn't like this big fight and you left. I just basically you came home from work and I said, Here's your bag, go live your life. And I was shocked because you turned around and walked out. Yeah. And so my dad came over and changed the locks, and I just remember telling the kids, you know, it's okay. Sometimes it's okay to put boundaries on people you love. And it wasn't emotional, it wasn't melodramatic, people weren't crying. It was just like this, okay. Yeah, he's made a decision, and this is what it's gonna be like. So you weren't responding to any text. I didn't have any idea where you were, obviously didn't sleep that night. The next day I got up and drained all the bank accounts and knew you had one credit card on you with a little bit of a limit on it. And honestly was like, I don't care. Like I he'll he does he, you were in the weirdest headspace that I just no reasoning or making sense. There was no making sense of it. Yeah, and so nothing was rational. So I drained all the bank accounts and then um tried to find you, couldn't find you, drove around, couldn't find you, and then went back to the house and began basically okay, this is a new normal, and this is the it's like the first time I found out about the betrayal was really bad. Yeah. But here's the thing is I didn't really know what happened until on July 15th that until September. Yeah. So Yeah, I think it's important to uh explain too that morning when you were driving around, you also texted me, you said I we need to meet. And we met at a little at a small bakery and a neutral site in public, probably a wise thing for you. Uh and probably for my own safety at that point. And you had a contract written out. And I remember you were very clear, like even before you read the contract, you were asking me if I had been with my fair partner. And of course I denied it because you're like, if you have, we're done. And so I immediately went into denial because it was like, I can't lose this. I can't, I I don't want to be done. Um and there was something also that occurred after the relapse where my affair partner was just kind of like, yeah, I don't, I'm kind of done with you. I don't really have anything. I don't want to be like, we're finished here. And I remember that like breaking something in my brain of, oh my God, like what what the heck am I what have I been doing all this time, right? So and then you you came and we met, and um that's when I was like, no, I wasn't with her at all. But you were. But I had been, yeah. And um you laid down this contract and I signed it. And that began, oddly enough, that began a journey of actually healing, right? But it also started our first separation. You kicked me out, and uh, which was again very wise that the keys or pardon me, the locks had been changed on the house. I didn't have keys to the house, and I ended up renting this terrible motel downtown, and it was disgusting. But I remember that being a turning point for me because uh there's a moment I share with a lot of my clients, especially my unfaithful, and I've shared it in our story when we share it, that I remember sitting at the edge of the bed of that terrible, disgusting motel. And I thought to myself, like, I something has to change. I I can't even even if this doesn't work out, I can't take the person that got me here, being me, into the future because what's that gonna do to whoever else I encounter? Right. So I remember that being a defining moment and began to really go down the path of self-discovery. And of course, a lot of therapy met with therapists. We spent so much money on therapy. Oh my God. But it was so helpful, it was so necessary, whether it was couples or individual. And things seemed to be moving really well. I don't remember how long we were separated the first time, but I remember coming back. I remember um there was some friction in the home because I, you know, our daughter's intuition was also pretty strong. And I think she was unsettled by the fact that I was back. And I let you back in because you had told me that you weren't with her that night and that you ended it with her that night. And so, like, it was over, it was done, you were over her. And I could tell like the limerence had been broken. Yeah. So I was like, okay, great. But I didn't know at the time it's because she essentially broke up with you. Yeah. Like, yeah, so I thought, okay, well, he's safe. So he's gonna move back in and we're gonna start working through this. And our daughter was like, You're not you it's too soon, mom. And I remember thinking, no, no, no. And she has great intuition too. But um, you came back in, and so from J I don't know how long we I don't know if it was like a month. I don't know how long it was. I don't know either. I couldn't put a time on it. Two weeks to a month. It seems about right. And then um just began the process of lots of walks, lots of conversations, um, and continual lying, but I didn't know you were lying. So, yeah, selective lying would probably that's a great, that's actually a really great term. Trickle truth. I think. More trickle truth perhaps. Yeah, either either one of those fit. I it was um most of our conversations were productive, I think. They were healthy. There just came a point, I would say, um uh probably a week leading up to that week in September where you really started to ask more questions about July 15th. Yeah, my intuition was your intuition was back on on point. And I remember thinking I had to stick to my story because if she finds out that I was with my fair partner, I we're done. And in spite of all the work that I'd I'd put in, I held on to this one part of the story. I held it closely because I knew it was probably going to be the most damaging. And then you had to do what is just the most unthinkable thing, but seemed to be the theme in our particular story is that you had to go to my affair partner to get the truth. She was my only source of truth. Yeah. And I'll say too, I don't want it to make it sound like I was this strong stoic person who wasn't bothered this whole time. I was unraveling. I cried constantly. Yeah. I couldn't remember how to run basic reports at work. I couldn't remember how I remember being at Target one day, and the lady told me my total, and I was like, I don't know what to do next. Right. It's like, oh, I gotta pay. Okay, how do I pay? What do I pay with? It was a complete unraveling. Like I never, and when they say, I mean, it is trauma. It truly is very traumatic. Um, and I'm just trying to find truth. Like I'm just trying to figure out what is reality, and that's just what I'm on a search for. And but also keeping you at an arm's length because I'm like, that the other thing that's so confusing about this is your fantastic dad. And like say our relationship wasn't volatile or unhinged or any. It was, I thought we had a good relationship. We'd been married 20 years at that point. Yeah. Um, and so I it's not like I was just sailing through as this strong person who was just making all these decisions and no big deal. Um, I was a mess, complete mess. So um, yes, so as I'm trying to heal and I'm going to a therapist and thinking, okay, screw the marriage. How do I heal my heart? If the marriage makes it great, but that was not my goal. My goal was, like I said before, an obliteration of my soul. So, how do I heal? And I couldn't stay where I was working and heal. That was also very confusing because I did work for a church. And so that was just an unraveling of even my faith and what did I leave and what people were telling me wasn't helpful. Um, just a lot of confusion. And so there was just something in the back of my brain, like I could tell you were trying, I could tell you wanted the family, I could tell you wanted to make it work. I've never questioned if you loved me or not. That's that's what's so strange about all of this. Um, but I just knew something in my gut was telling me you weren't, we weren't at rock bottom yet. I didn't know everything. And it was in September you were at a men's retreat. That's right. Yeah. And I just was like, he's not, you would, yeah, you weren't telling me the truth. So I would go to your fair partner for the truth to get details or the truth. And so I just asked her on Facebook Messenger, were you with him that night? And she said, Yeah, I am so sorry. I'm so like I'm really, really so sorry. And then she blocked me. Yeah. Yeah. And then that's when I knew, wow. So I let him come back in. And that's when I knew at that point I was done. Yeah. I remember uh so at this men's retreat we're like out in the wilderness and I received that text while journaling, which I thought was a bit ironic. And I'll just call what is. He said, You're in deep shit. And you sent uh you sent pics of the conversation, and I was like, Yes, I am. And I had to leave. I left the I No, I chose to stay. I remember that. I chose to stay. I I I wanted to leave early. And I remember having a decision to make in that point where it's like, okay, I'm either in this or I'm not. I'm either gonna stick with this men's camp, which is it was faith-based, and doing whatever I could to recover from all my behavior, and I knew I had a choice to make there too. And I stayed. And we texted back and forth for the next 48 hours, I think. It was hurtful and painful. And uh when I got back, yeah, I knew you I saw it in your eyes. The ambivalence had set in. Uh uh, and uh there was just kind of like this I don't I'm done. I'm I I can't put myself through this anymore. And that's when it set in for me too. I was like, she is definitely done, and rightfully so. I you had every right to just call it right there. Um so we separated again. Yeah, me and the kids moved into a new home and you stayed in what was our home at the time, and I needed a fresh start. And I mean, I got new furniture and whatever, and I got the most basic stuff at Target. I got just whatever I could afford um to start over. But I got my own bed, I got my own towels, I was like I'm starting over, and I don't want any inkling of Arle in my personal life or have any access to my heart. It's just I'm gonna heal. Um I'm I'm an analyst, a researcher, so I read probably 50 books and listened to whatever podcast or online content I could, and it was all focused on just healing my heart. It had I wasn't I had no interest in saving the marriage. Yeah. Yeah, I could tell. And I had to behave In a way that um again, you're inventorying as an unfaithful, at least for me, it's like I had to inventory um what I still had left, right? It's like I have a relationship with kids that need a ton of that needs a ton of repair. And there everything else that comes with that, it was a lot. And at the same time, I remember thinking that I also have to right some wrongs here with people that uh I've humiliated and embarrassed, people that I'm connected to, specifically speaking, your your parents, my parents. So I started to make phone calls, and um I remember telling my parents that uh look, I I think we're gonna get a divorce. And I remember reassuring them, I'm like, I want you to know that no matter what happens, um, I will always, I'll always honor Amber. She's always gonna be a priority, and um I will never ever like go back to an affair partner that I had. That's not an option. And I remember talking to your parents about that too, uh, because I just knew I thought we were done. I was like, I need I need to mend this the best I can. And I went over to your parents, I remember actually talking to my mother uh on the way there. I had called her and told her what I was doing, and went to your parents and sat with the two of them, and I just told them I I am so sorry for any humiliation and disappointment and breaking your daughter's heart. And um I I reassured them too that uh I if Amber divorces me, she has every right, and I will not go back to an affair partner. And um I will do whatever it takes to honor Amber for the rest of my life, whatever that looks like, uh, and honor this family. And your dad said something that was so um It was probably the most life-giving statement I could have possibly heard. He just said, Arlie, we love you no matter what. And he said, You are forever woven into the tapestry of this family, and uh in that moment my aloneness vanished, and I felt hope that even if we did get divorced and we had to find and create beautiful lives for ourselves apart from each other, um, that I was still a part of the family, which was really important. And um that point on, I think um my resolve to just become the best version of myself was all that mattered. I had to find a way to honor you and the kids in spite of what I had just drugged them through over the past year. And um I remember, you know, I was living off of a I was, you know, I I I had a chef uh as a chef, I had a this, I was working with another chef and he gave me his his son's bedroom. His son had moved out. So I'm I'm sleeping in this guy's son's bedroom and living off of like fast food. And you know, it was it was a pretty rough, uh, pretty rough time. But I remember going through the drive-thru and um you had sent me something about a fair recovery. And I was like, Yeah, uh let's let's give it a shot. Which is a program. Which is a program, a fair recovery. Yeah. Um we encouraged uh everyone that we talked to to consider a fair recovery. Uh and so you I remember I was in the drive-thru and you sent me a text, and I was like, hell yeah. I mean, there was like this glimmer of hope for me. I think for you, is what I've learned from the story that you share. It wasn't about hope for you. It was about clearing your conscience. Yeah. Say more about that. I wanted to be able to tell my kids that I did everything I could. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it was probably uh the turning point for us. Uh it wasn't probably. It was the turning point. I remember um we made Austin. Yeah, we made plans to go down to Austin, New Brunfels area, um, for one of their what they call an EMS weekend and emergency mirror seminar. And um I remember you were already in Austin. I had to come pick you up. So there was this interesting drive for about 90 minutes from Austin to New Brunfels, where it was a little awkward. And um, you were just telling me about some of the things that you would experience in Austin at that conference you were at. And we got there, and it was the most awkward, terrifying Friday morning of my entire life. Yeah. And um it was also the turning point for everything for us. Yeah, and just some context. Um, it's a team of trauma-trained therapists who have experienced betrayal themselves. And in three very intense days, they give you resources and tools to help understand how did we get here? That's right. And what do we where do we go from here? And I will say, you know, I had begun to see a difference in you from July to September. Like you were not telling, you were withholding the truth, but the complete truth for your own safety or whatever. I don't know. Um survival. Survival. But I had noticed like you were you were back, you were present, you were trying, you were doing the things, you were, and I forgot to mention too, when I had you sign that contract, I had retained a divorce attorney at that point. That's right. So I think you knew like I'm serious. And I did. I went and retained a divorce attorney that morning, and she gave me a lot of advice and you know, helped me understand. But I just basically put on paper, these are the things that you can and can't do that make me feel safe, right? So if you can't agree to this list, then just call it. Like I this is but this is what I need to feel safe. Right. So, what also helped was going down to AR, for me, it's just like I'm gonna mark this off my list, I'm gonna clear my conscience, and then I can look my kids in the eye and said and say I did everything I could to keep our family unit together. Yeah. Um, but to my surprise, they gave us a lot of resources and insight that helped me understand you, that helped me understand myself, and gave me like tangible hope. Yeah. Yeah, I think what a fair recovery did for me, um, it provided good company. I realized that my behavior, as terrible and awful as it was, I was among others who uh were in the same same boat as me. And uh some were, you know, executives, some every walk of life. Doctors, pilots. And it was like, you know what, I'm I'm not alone in this thing. And and and they just hit you from the get-go. It's it's understanding um what on earth uh got you to this point. And then it's up to us to take all of that home and put in the work and really dive in. And I remember one of the big tools that, or I should say just one of the benefits of a fair recovery, they introduced me to this concept I knew very little about, which was called empathy. And we did so many empathy exercises. And as you're doing exercise after exercise, you begin to grasp the gravity of what your spouse must have been going through from discovery. Um and I think that was some of the most powerful. And they also gave us tools for language, how to speak differently and communicate differently. And I think that was really, really important. And we have so much to thank Affair Recovery for. We still uh communicate with their staff. We love their staff. We are forever grateful. I think it's safe to say we're forever grateful for Affair Recovery, because I don't know that we would be here without them. And you know, they've given us so many opportunities to go back and share our story uh when they have their weekends, and we've been so honored to do that. And um it it was just a pivotal um point for us in in in our path, our our path specifically. And I'll add, you felt normalized, and then I felt normalized. Great point. Because when you're the betrayed, you are riding the crazy train. That's right. And there's times the crazy train is going a hundred miles an hour. And it was so great to connect with other people who have been in my same shoes and me share something vulnerable, slightly crazy, slightly thinking if I share this, I'm gonna be put in an insane asylum somewhere. And they just look at me and go, Well, of course you, of course you felt that way. Yeah. Like not shocked, not offended. I felt like I, again, what I was going through was normalized because when you're going through infidelity, no one's gonna bring you a casserole. No, you can't talk to anyone about it, you've got to go about your regular life as if nothing's happened, yet it is extremely traumatic. And my hope with this is that we can provide a place for people to not feel so alone and to just understand that what feels impossible is overcomable. I mean, it's it's not forever. I mean, our life today is amazing. Yeah, it's hard to imagine um where we are today compared to back then. It great, great way to put it, what felt impossible. Um, it did feel impossible. And I think we we just live in a world of possibilities now. I just remember thinking, how do you redeem this? Golly. I don't know. Like at some point and through all this going, there is nothing left to redeem. Yeah. I'll never believe a word that comes out of your mouth. Yeah. Yeah. Rightfully so. You know, I mean, I just remember thinking, I'll never feel the same. I'll my my brain will never come back. Like just this feeling of darkness and doom and aloneness and not having a lot of resources to help figure out and encourage. Yeah. And I hope to be able to provide some of that. Yeah, I think that's that's my hope too. I hope that we can normalize a lot of people's pain, their suffering, their confusion, their, you know, the world of disorientation that they probably exist in right now. And um, for those who've been on the path for a short time, hopefully we can provide them with some tools and uh some hope as well. Uh, our journey has been hard. I I would say too, as we kind of come to a close, the first couple of years after a fair recovery were probably the hardest uh because you start to um you start to you're putting the puzzle pieces together and you have to ask yourself why, or at least I had to ask myself why. I know you have your own set of questions, but for someone who's unfaithful, it's just like you're taking apart your entire self uh psychologically and trying to understand how on earth you could lead yourself down that path. And it's not it's not one thing. I think that's been the interesting thing about recovery, is it's uh it's a thousand things. And you have to own each and every one of those. And when you make a discovery, I think that's you feel powerful, you feel a little bit uh more secure in yourself, and you feel uh like there's um something you can kind of add to the list of of like overcoming, if you want to call it that. And again, I I think that's probably one of the um things that I would share with our audience is that the healing process doesn't just like come to a stop. You don't reach, there's no first of all, there's no linear path, there's no perfect path. Our path to healing, uh, especially from my side, goodness, as unperfect as it gets, and um it's ongoing. We're 10 years uh from discovery, and we still we're still learning things about ourselves, we're learning things about each other, and we're learning things about our marriage and what sustains it. And I think that that's important to note is that um it's not that it stays difficult because it doesn't. Right. Um it actually gets really good. It gets really, really good if you continue to put in the work. Yeah. And I think that's hopefully our message. So with that, um we would love to hear from anybody who has a story to share, or um, maybe you have some questions about your own experience with infidelity. Um, maybe you're new to that world and you're as disoriented as you know, Amber described, and you don't you don't know where North is. Maybe you don't even know where you park your car. Um and we want to be able to give you a voice in this journey as well. We want you to respond, send questions, send comments, um, and we'll take them and uh we'll we'll read them and we'll talk about our own experience with those very same topics. That's that's what we want out of this podcast. We just want the people who listen to not feel as alone uh as this whole journey can feel. Yeah, and and I'll add to that, um, we want obviously to hear from you, but I think even if you're not walking this path, but someone very close to you is um just understanding what their reality looks like and how you can help them. Um, I hope to bring in other perspectives as well that helped us on our journey just so you could get their perspective of what it was like to watch us go through this, but also what was helpful. Um, and we can kind of have a conversation about that. But really, you know, we'll end with wherever this finds you, you are not alone, and there's hope. And I I just want you to know this is not the end of your story.