I Thought The Marriage Was Good

Episode 2: I Thought We Had a Good Marriage

One of the first things a betrayed partner does after discovery is go back through every memory, every good day, every moment that felt real, and start questioning all of it. Wondering if they missed something. Wondering if they were the fool the whole time.

In this episode, Arly and Amber sit with a question that feels almost too simple to ask: what if the marriage actually was good?

Because it was. And that's what makes this so hard to hold.

They talk about separating the marriage from the event, why the affair doesn't have to cancel out twenty years, and what it means to grieve something real without letting it be rewritten as a lie. For Arly, admitting the marriage was good meant there was nowhere left to point the finger, which is exactly where the real work begins. For Amber, it eventually meant release: if it wasn't about her, she didn't have to own it.

That tension of grieving and believing at the same time is what this episode is all about.

Whatever your piece of this looks like, you're not as alone in it as it feels.

theaffairthatsavedus.com

The Affair That Saved Us is hosted by Amber and Arly . They’re a real couple sharing a real story. This podcast is not a substitute for professional therapy or counseling. If you or someone you love is navigating infidelity, we encourage you to seek support from a qualified professional.

Whatever your piece of this looks like, you're not as alone in it as it feels.

Have a question, a story, or something you want us to talk about? We want to hear from you. info@theaffairthatsavedus.com

If you're ready to work with Arly one-on-one, scheduling is available at arlysmart.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Affair That Saved Us podcast. You know, there are two sides to every story. In this one, we're both telling ours. My name is Arlie, I'm the unfaithful partner.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

And I'm Amber, I'm the betrayed partner.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

The Affair That Saved Us is built on that duality, my perspective and hers, as we unpack what discovery, survival, and healing actually look like for the two of us. This is not a roadmap, it's not a prescription. It's just two people telling the truth about a journey most people feel they have to navigate alone.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Because that's really why we do this. So whatever brought you here, you are not as alone as it feels.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

You know, one of the things I hear a lot as a therapist when I've got a couple coming into the room, usually for the first time, it's it's in the first session, um, is a betrayed mate who's saying something like, you know, I thought, I thought we had a good marriage. And there's this really interesting pause that happens. It's almost as if they're waiting for me to undermine that and say, Well, of course you didn't have a good marriage. Look, you look where you are right now. Um But I think after, you know, a lot of work that we've put in, I can sit there in that silence and let them sit with the silence, and then ultimately just say, Well, maybe you did have a good marriage. And um, I think that's where we start today is the idea of uh like reconciling all of the past in the current moment when we discover infidelity. Um so with that, like before everything came out, how how would you describe our marriage?

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Yeah, I would have described it as good, genuinely good. We had built a beautiful family, um a life that we was very good. Um and at the time of faith that we even shared. Um but I was not in survival mode as far as our marriage was concerned. I wasn't white knuckling it. I wasn't um secretly unhappy. Yeah. I I thought we were okay, us as a couple. I really did think we were okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Yeah. Me too. I look back and I I think our marriage was it was good. It was really good. Uh you know, we we laughed a lot. I think that's one of the things uh that really drew us together too from the beginning was that we s we I love to make you laugh. I love your laugh. And I think that was a big part of the foundation of of our marriage. Um like you said, we shared values. I think honestly, too, we had a lot of mutual respect. I don't think there was anything about you that um when I look back that I was just um I don't know, disgusted by or like disappointed with, right? You brought you brought a lot of good to the table. Um and you know, if I'm I would think that, you know, being observed from others, I I think it's safe to say we may have built something that other people may have wanted, you know?

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Yeah, I mean I think from the outside. From the outside, sure. Yeah. And I'll clarify too, if we're talking specifically just about the marriage, it was good. Now, I knew you were struggling with something, but like as a marriage and as a couple, as our family unit, I think we had a really good thing. And uh, you know, I was really proud of our family.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Yeah, I I am too. I I like I said, I I think it was I think it was pretty special. And you know, I'm not I'm not like pandering here. I because if I'm if if I'm willing to admit that it was good, I mean that complicates everything. Right. Right. Because suddenly um I I don't have an external variable to like pin my affair on, right? Or the or my tr my behavioral choices. Um and that's that's where things get really uncomfortable for a lot of us unfaithful is uh if I can't go if I can't go outward, I I have to go inward, right? Yeah. So that's yeah. Well, when you think about a good marriage, I mean, and what that looks like, I mean, how would you say uh ours fit at the time?

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Yeah, I would say I again I thought it was good, and that's what made the discovery so or disorienting for me is um I didn't suspect it, I didn't have a hunch, it didn't feel like that was a possibility or even lurking around the corner. Um and honestly, I wasn't looking for any signs because I didn't think there was anything to find.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, there were no outward signs uh uh for sure for you know the first probably 18, 18 years. Yeah. Um yeah, the picture of a marriage, I uh to me too, I think by every measure, we we had a we had a really we fit the picture of a pretty normal marriage, right? We, you know, whether it's uh societal or or socially or culturally, um, you know, we it was, you know, two people raising a family and working our tails off to, you know, provide. Um what were you gonna say?

SPEAKER_02 5:15

Yeah, I would say there was nothing I would consider toxic about it. Right. Or there was not fighting or um headbutting or anything like that. Like you say, there was a mutual trust and respect that we had for each other and had um at that point when discovery came, had been together married 20 years at that point. So it, you know, there I I would not by any means describe it as unhealthy or toxic. It seemed it was hard. Marriage is hard, but I still thought what we had was good.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Yeah, me too. I I think too about the idea of like it fitting into a certain uh picture. There's um there's there there's something a bit nuanced about our marriage though, too, that I can really appreciate. Um and there there was a there's like a I have a core adult memory uh of just how kind of unique our relationship was uh as we raised our family and uh our marriage grew. Um but there was a, you know, the picture I had as a kid was that you know, the man, the man provides, he he goes out to work early in the morning, um, does all the heavy lifting, you know, builds the shed and repairs the fence and does all the all of that. And the mother, you know, she's at home and she's raising four kids, uh, God bless you, mom, and trying to feed them and you know, cooking dinner. And and so I had this like idea of what a marriage looked like, right? And then uh you and I meet and uh, you know, our our backgrounds are so different. You know, you're raised by an architect home builder, and uh I I was a chef, and I'll never forget uh when there was we were we were working on the fret's house, and my dad called one evening and he was just like, What is that sound in the background? And it was you. You were and I told him, like, well, Amber's back there. She's she's planning some doors so she can get them hung up. And he's he just kind of like this, I could tell the the silence was said a lot. And he was like, Well, what are you doing? Like, shouldn't you be doing that? You know, and I just remembered, well, no, I'm I'm I'm cooking dinner. You know, and as a chef, that felt pretty that felt like the right space for me. And to just re I I remember the silence. I remember him just like kind of getting lost himself in that conversation. And uh but what I love about that memory is that it kind of it makes our it reminds me of how special, like you know, pre-infidelity, how special our marriage was and how we made it work for us and and how important that was in um just just the way we grew together.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

Yeah, I think our differences really complemented each other. Yeah, that's a great way. And they weren't traditional.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

But they weren't, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Yeah, but they did. They complemented each other really well. That's great. I felt like we were a great team.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Yeah, I mean, I I th I thought it was great too. I I I really um, you know, and again, we've done a lot of work. Uh so you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't think that at some point post-infidelity, I didn't throw all that stuff away for a little while. Sure. You know, I've had to come back to um all of it. And I guess there's a I don't know if it's a reconciliation, I guess you could call it that.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Yeah. I mean, I think when you go through the process and you discover infidelity and you weren't suspecting it and you thought your marriage was good, then you start to question whether any of it was real. Yeah. Right? So it's like, wow, I thought what we had was good. You've poo-pooed on it, and my brain immediately went to questioning was the marriage real? Was my perception of it real? And um, it made me go back and and audit and think through every memory and every trip, every good day, every moment that I thought that we were connected. Your brain starts to go down that path and question all of that. And when you're so disoriented like that, you begin to question what was real, um, what was reality. Did I was what I was seeing and experiencing in my marriage with you real? Or was it just what I wanted to see? And I had a hard time separating the marriage from the event. Yeah, that's pretty. And allowing the event to cancel out 20 years of marriage.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Yeah, it's it's so it seems like a pretty automatic response too. I I get that a lot from um, you know, my clients who come in and sit down, and the betrayed partner is asking the unfaithful, you know, was any of it real? And I think that's a I think it's an important question. It it's something I don't know if anyone has the answer right away. I know we didn't. No. Um you're just like you said, I I think that as you use a great word of just auditing. I think you do that with so many. I mean, whether it's a picture on the wall or or whatever, you're you're just like, well, what was going on during that time? And yeah, so yeah, you kind of audit all of the memories and um the nostalgia, and it's uh it's a difficult place to be. Um you know, you did say that. So maybe maybe can you go any further with that as far as like after the affair was discovered, you start questioning whether it was real. Um what was real? Did you do you have anything to go off of that?

SPEAKER_02 10:56

I mean, um, the only thing that felt real to me was my immense pain, right? And the, but then also the disorientation. Um, but you began to question the reality of everything. And uh something I wish I would have had known back then. And I remember the defining moment when I was going to EMDR therapy and the therapist, I was ch talking to him and you know, obviously, you know, crying, and and I just told him I thought I had a strong marriage. And it was really it changed things for me when he just re looked at me and said, And and what if you do? And I I didn't even think that that was a possibility because I it almost felt like the affair canceled out 20 years of my life, and it was became very personal and and about me. Yeah. And that somehow I was the fool or ignorant the whole 20 years and living something that I thought was real that wasn't. And that really helped open me up a little bit in that moment of thinking, oh, so what you're saying is I could good marriages can have affairs.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Just as much as I know a lot of toxic marriages that never experience infidelity. Right?

SPEAKER_00 12:27

So it's like holding that tension.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Yeah. I mean, and so um I mean for me, uh I'm sorry to interrupt.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Uh for me, you know, it wasn't really asking if the marriage was real. I mean, right out of the gate. I know you asked it, uh, but for me, it was like asking myself if if I if I was real. Like when you when you sit with suddenly you're you're sitting with the idea of of where you're trying to like quantify exactly what you've done as you're, you know, you've hurt everybody that you love the most. Um that's all very real. You know, I I wasn't at a place where I could assess the assess history. I was, it's you're too caught up in the in the present moment. Um But there were like two, there's two different realities that I was existing in. One was that I had a really good marriage, and the other was that, you know, internally I I had something I couldn't name at at the time. And so, you know, there's a tension that I'm holding on to as well. And I guess maybe even like subconsciously I'm hoping that uh you know the goodness of the marriage can maybe outweigh what I'm that this in inner turmoil that I have. Um which ultimately I discovered was like this this need uh to feel worthy of love, right? That's what my work led me to. And what's interesting is that through that process, as I as I think about those two realities I was living in, one was this like almost undertow or this constant flow of of um, or maybe um it was a restlessness, not really a flow. And it was this idea that again, I I was searching for something that would give me that would validate me being worthy of love. Um and I wasn't I couldn't find it in anything, right? I couldn't find it in a good marriage, I couldn't find it in a great career, none of that was working out. And so ultimately it was like, you know, this idea of like a self-fulfilling prophecy. I had I had been burying this thing for so long and finally it was beginning to surface. And um it was like I I set a trap for myself and I stepped right in it. And that trap, which is the self-fulfilling prophecy, is I'm not worthy of being loved. And now look what I've done. Now I've proven it to myself and everyone else. There's no way I'm worthy of being loved right now. And to like sit with that for a while was was really difficult. But um it was kind of a turning point, I think, because you you kind of feel like you're you're in a pretty you're in a pretty low place. Um but again it I I I had to hold this tension that it didn't it didn't negate all of the good, right? I mean, yeah, that's probably one of the most difficult things to reconcile.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

Yeah, and for me, I remember early on thinking that the affair was about the marriage. Actually, I've I've initially thought it was about me, that I wasn't enough, um, that there had to have been something that I could have done differently. I somehow in this weird way wanted to find something that I could own in the process. I think in an attempt to feel like I had control over something, but until I was able to realize that um it was more about you than it was about us. And getting to that answer took a long time and it took a lot of work. Um, because honestly, it would have been easier just to assume I missed something or could have done something different.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Yeah, I think too, I think the affair for me, I mean, it just ref it revealed a part of me that like I hadn't been I didn't again, I didn't have a name for it. I hadn't really been introduced to it yet. Yeah. And it it came out sideways.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

And um I'm not saying that's easy to hear. It's definitely uncomfortable, it's certainly not an excuse. Yeah. Um, but yeah, that kind of leads to the next question. Like, do you think the affair was about their marriage or about something else? What was that like for you?

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Yeah, I again in my initial go-to was this is about me. I have somehow not been enough. Yeah. And you needed to look outside of the marriage for something that I wasn't able to provide. And you know, now that I say that out loud, that that kind of is true in the sense of you were looking for something that only you could have given yourself.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

That's correct. Yes. Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

And so, so yeah, so in in a sense, I wasn't able to give it to you. No one externally can give that to you.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Which is a really hard lesson to learn. Uh obviously, it this is how I learned it, right? Yeah. Through this entire process. Um yeah, I mean, because I as a as an unfaithful, and like many that I I work with every day, I mean, we would love for it to be something else. That would be so great. Because then we could just like put a little bow on it, right? And we could just seal it up and be like, here's here's why. Um, but if we've learned anything, uh, you know, and something I tell all my unfaithful, there there's no single why. It's it's definitely not about the marriage. You want, you really do, you kind of want to be a shared problem. Yeah. You know, you want the weight to kind of be uh as evenly distributed as possible. And uh there's you know, that's that's just unfair. It's so unfair to uh the betrayed. And so when when an unfaithful gets to that point where it's like, okay, so it can't be about the marriage, as I said earlier, suddenly it's like I have no external place to point my finger or uh or someone to blame it on.

SPEAKER_02 18:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Now I have to start asking hard questions. And that uh that's probably you know, that's where the work really, really begins, I think, for most unfaithfuls.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

Well, and I would say the counterpart of that is when it began for me, when I was able to say, this isn't about me. This isn't my problem to solve. Like this is this your choice to go outside of the marriage had nothing to do with me.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

When did you get to that point though?

SPEAKER_02 18:56

I I can't pinpoint it, but I can remember, I don't pinpoint like an exact moment, but I remember the feeling of almost being set free of feeling this need to own any of it.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

And when I was able to get to that place and realization of this had nothing to do with me. I I am enough.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

What we had was good. Yeah. And your choice to go outside of the marriage was 100% on you. Yeah. And and had to do with you and your relationship with yourself.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Yeah, that's you're absolutely right. Um, there's a point where I mean, you and I have used a language like there's a reckoning, right? That I think I think both the betrayed and the unfaithful go through, but I think initially it's uh it's definitely um all on the unfaithful to have that moment, that reckoning. And and for me, that that's exactly what happened. I, you know, I've done a ton of work. I'm still doing work, you know, 10 years out, still learning a a lot. Um but again, it was as I as I've done that work, I realized that because I couldn't blame it on the marriage, I couldn't blame it on you, I couldn't blame it on the kids or work or anything like that. And I had to I had to choose to go inward with it. You know, my work led me down that path of like realizing there was uh there was a part of me that just didn't feel worthy of love, right? And so it came from this this you know boy who interpreted the world in such a way that that's where it led me. And I had to sit with that. I ultimately, I mean, I had to deconstruct it too. I mean, there were messages that I'd received my entire life, uh, whether it was through, you know, cultural messages or familial messages, um, that, you know, you know, I'm inherently bad. I mean, you you know, the list is pretty long. And um that that's I think that's too when I began to see that I there was a r actually a bit of a relief because I I knew that you know I no longer had a a scapegoat, right? Which was the marriage. And that was uh that was helpful. But again, I it's it's the idea that um us unfaithful, we have to go we have to go inward.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

I think too, probably I remember the when you began to develop the awareness that you had maladaptive you know Yeah, behaviors and yeah, that you learned at a young age. And when life squeezes you, you your response is to respond in a maladaptive way. And um that is just how yours manifested.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Yeah, it's a great way to put it. That's not really accurate.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

But at the end of the day, I mean, I I personally believe a marriage can genuinely be good and still produce affair. I mean, you think so? Do you agree, disagree?

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Yeah, because I I see it. Uh and I'm I mean, we're kind of living proof of that, but I I see it all the time. And and a lot of the work that I do with my couples and my practice is that you know as time goes on and we can like we can f fish back into history and pull something that's like no that that was meaningful. Um oh no that that that family trip was was very real you know so things start to um they they start to have weight again they start to have meaning and I think that's that's definitely something um yeah definitely something I see all the time. So yeah I think it's possible.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

How about um this question what's the difference between the marriage not being what you thought and the person not being who you thought and uh the reason I asked that is because that distinction that we've kind of touched on is what actually I feel like saved me and my sanity. Um because I could still look at our history in our marriage and find something worth keeping um but what I had to reckon with was that I didn't fully know you and that not everything we built together was a lie.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Yeah that's a that's great. Um yeah I think there you you had access to almost everything, right? Uh there were parts of me that that you just hadn't been introduced to as I said earlier. I I hadn't been introduced to I I didn't give you I didn't give you access to it. And you know if I'm being honest I mean I don't know that I had access to it either. I I didn't know how to name it. I didn't have um you know I I didn't have I didn't have language I didn't have a a map I didn't have any kind of direction I didn't have anybody in my life you know when I was a little kiddo you know or anything like that just being like hey I want you to know just you know you were you are good you know inherently good and that's not the message that I received um because that's that's just not the message the people that you know were in my life received either. So I'm fine with it. It is what it is. But if I I think it would be different if I if I had a name for it right if if I had people in my life who constantly affirmed my goodness and my value which I I realize now I don't need anyone to affirm that right that's the work that I've done I'm accountable for all of those things. I don't need you or a marriage to to have value or meaning or give me value or meaning. Be clear about that.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

That that is all internal for you now.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yeah that's all internal. So I I don't I'm not looking to um again it's it's really easy uh I used the word earlier I used the word scapegoat because that's that's something that as an unfaithful you're constantly looking for. You don't want to bear the shame. It's it's hard to imagine all of the shame that you bear and the consequence for that matter of being unfaithful. So you're you're always looking for a scapegoat and even when you're wrestling with something internally it's like well I don't feel loved and it's because it's because of you or it's because my kids don't treat me a certain way or my boss doesn't like me you name it you're you're constantly looking for a scapegoat and when you can sit with the idea that there are no scapegoats and you begin to own uh all of that behavior I mean yeah you start to see some change uh your little introduction to some transformation uh there but um I think I think seeing you go through that process and hearing you say Amber this affair had nothing to do with you it was a hundred percent on me.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Yeah and when you began to share the things that you were wrestling with your self-beliefs your low self-esteem your low self-regard it was only at that point that I could begin to look at you through a lens of compassion and just say I almost feel like sad and sorry for you like that you were in such in that place that the decision you made made sense to you on some level at some point because it's just like you say just self-fulfilling destruction.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Yeah you you set your own trap and then you you step right into it. You're going to do that. And I think it's important to note here too as you describe the idea of like having you know me sharing some of those internal struggles uh you know and you saying you know having compassion that's a different than pity. And that's something that I think some betrayed spouses right now are going, hell no. I'm not I I don't have it in me right now to to extend any of that. And that's totally normal and acceptable. I mean you'll you know that's that's the path you're on right now.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

And it took me a really long time to get to that place. So I don't want people to think I just woke up one day I was very angry with you. Oh yeah for quite a while. Yeah and couldn't give a crap. Yeah you know if you would have said well I have low self-worth I would say well yeah you should. You should right now this is a this is us getting you know after a very long process of getting to this place.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah a lot of self-discovery um and again just to be to be clear it's you know when when I'm having these discoveries and I'm sharing them with you it requires a a a level of vulnerability but it's also kind of a double-edged sword because it can come across as see this is why I did it. And I wanted to be careful and I think most unfaithfuls you know we we want to approach it with caution and be like hey I made a discovery I'm not saying that this is why but this helps me understand it's information that helps me kind of begin to piece this puzzle back together. And I think that's a huge distinction. So when I you know I'm grateful for your compassion in those moments because it required a lot of vulnerability which I had held in for 40 plus years and was always kind of taught like men don't do this. And so to approach that and I mean terrified to open up to you in those ways and to be met with compassion and understanding. Now I will say that doesn't mean that um you were just you know oh Arlie I'm so glad to hear it there was still kind of a stone cold like I'm glad you figured that out. It was it it wasn't shaming it was still like okay I appreciate you doing the discovery but it still doesn't excuse it. So there's there's that I wanted I just wanted to really clarify like there's a difference between compassion and pity and the unfaithful do not deserve any pity.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

And early on you probably don't feel like they deserve any compassion and I'm right I'm here for that too yeah oh yeah no I just whatever the opposite of compassion is um is what was racing through my veins right rage rage yes and you're seeing red every day every day and uh there isn't anything that you can say because your words mean nothing in those early days because you lied that is the truth so much. So the words meant nothing and it was all about your actions but I will also say and we'll go into this in some other episode more in detail but as I began to watch you from a distance go and do your own work and go inward and try to understand and heal yourself that is when I began to fall in love with who you were becoming because in my mind yeah it was over like there was yeah I was not this was really bad. And even if I could step back and say this was about you and not about me, I could not reconcile with you until I felt like you were safe and began to fall in love with who you were becoming through that process. And again we're talking you know 18 months we're talking very long stretch of time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

And um and I think to that point too I I think that's the path that we're all on um I think that's the path infidelity forces us to and I I think that's I'll be careful here, but I think that's where you know the affair that saved us kind of comes into play is you're forced to both of us were kind of forced to go inward. Right. And so there was change and I think a discovery outside of all of the whys uh is that the best version of me has been here the whole time. And I think that was a realization that was really important for me. Um I just I hadn't much like my suffering and and my lack of awareness of my need to feel worthy of love, I didn't have a name for understanding that the best version of myself had been here the whole time. So I I think that hopefully that's hopeful uh that you know can I add to that?

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Oh of course I would say that you weren't operating out of the best version of yourself. Like it was there. It's in you. You didn't have to become someone else like you because it almost made it sound like your best version was oh gosh there.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

No I was discovering it.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Yeah it was like the layers were coming off but your goodness and who I fell in love with initially and fell in love with again has always been there.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

And I mean I would say to someone who's using the affair um as proof that their whole marriage was a lie, my advice to that would be don't let the affair rewrite everything.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

That's great.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Yeah absolutely one chapter even as devastating as this one is and I know when you're in it it doesn't feel like a chapter it feels like an encyclopedia set. Yeah. Right? Like it's not even a chapter. But don't let that erase what was real and that you're allowed to grieve um the marriage that you thought you had still believe that it was good and that it mattered.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Yeah that's some serious tension to hold to the the idea that you're you're grieving what you you had hoped and thought you had and at the same time you're trying to reconcile it to uh it's a really difficult tension uh to sit with. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

Go ahead no I was just gonna say I think it's it's okay if if I were to look back and say what now do I wish I'd known then um the shock that you feel after everything gets revealed is not does not mean you were naive throughout the marriage.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

That's a great point. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

Um if anything it means that you were present it means that you were faithful you trusted um and that is not a weakness that is what you're supposed to do in a healthy relationship. So don't spend your energy in processing that in in that in a negative way because it's not going to produce anything that is life giving for you.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

That's so true. That's an interesting term too life giving I think I think I used that term in our first episode too. That's something that um we could probably spend an episode on uh just the idea of when you're going through this terrible awful season, it's it is so difficult to find any positive. And you become super I don't know if you want to say like you you become like hungry for life giving whether it's health, mentorship, uh yeah advocacy of any kind. And you I would encourage anyone to like if you're if you're spiraling, find something life giving and start to gravitate toward that because it's it's about the only thing that can get you through is is the small life giving things, whether it's you know friend that you know doesn't make you feel judged or reading a book that kind of helps you understand what you're going through. But life giving is a great word. You know if there's if there's anything that I wish uh I knew then that I know now I mean clearly we've talked a little bit about it. I would say that uh I wish I knew uh th this kind of restlessness or sadness that I had in me, right? That that was present from you know subconsciously from the time I was a boy uh until you know I was forty uh that it was that that none of that was about you or the marriage or the kids or my career or any of that. Um it was something just deeper and uh unresolved and it you know also that it had a name. It was a bit unconscious to me. It was mysterious but it was also active I guess if you want to call it that it was it was constantly kind of at the you know stirring. Right. Um and I you know I my worth and value the the work that I've done over the last ten years in being able to associate my worth and value with just me. I determine all of that. I wish I I knew that back then so that I wasn't placing all of that unfair weight onto you, onto our marriage, our kids. And I I think that's if the that would be definitely a a couple of things that you know I wish I had known then. But you know even if somebody had given me a checklist of things to you know be looking out for, I don't know if I would have been I don't know if I'd have been open enough to hear it or understand it um or or find it relevant at all. Uh you know I have to live with the the for me I've I I have to live with the conclusion that if the affair hadn't happened I wouldn't be where I am right now.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

Yeah. And then you know Richard Rohr has a saying you know it's only through great love or great suffering that we've come to that place of wholeness. Yep. And something I always say which doesn't make sense until you get to the other side is going through infidelity is something you would wish on no one but hope for everyone. And that's simply because the other side of it, once you've done the personal internal work you basically unlock this whole different world of how you see yourself, how you see the others, how you see the world and I wish so desperately there was a different way to unlock that but it is what it is. And yeah it is um and I think that's what the paradox of you you begin to live in the paradox of life.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

Yeah the the the paradox of only you know the best thing often come from the the worst. Yeah. And that's you know but it doesn't come without suffering and and unbelievably hard work.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

Yeah. And I'll just say like if you're willing to put in the work and it will feel like a part-time job for about 18 to 24 months you would not trade it.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

I don't think I would like if this had not happened I don't think I would like who I would be or what our life would look like. And again I'll never know but um at this point today I can actually look at our life with a sense of gratitude. And that's honestly why we're doing this is I I want more people because I know this is not an isolated issue. Right. But I also know it destroys a lot of people. It sure does and I would like to share just what a little bit of what I've learned in that process in hopes that it gives someone else just a little bit of curiosity as to what is this possibly teaching me or what does this make possible in my life or you know what what good could is it possible that good could come from this and just a little bit of hope that the utter destruction that you feel and that you're ruined and life will never be good again is is not true Thank you for listening to this episode of the Affair That Saved Us podcast.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

If something we said today landed for you or if you've got a question you want us to sit with, come find us at the Affair That Saved Us dot com. Leave it there, we're listening