Finding success without a straight line

A move away from traditional life stages and career paths mean it’s increasingly likely people have “squiggly” careers which don’t follow the linear ‘join a company and rise through the ranks’ progression. Our guests explore why this is happening, what advantages and challenges it brings and how to make the most of a squiggly career. 

Guests: 

James Green, founder of Vox Partners

Ellis Harris-Boulter, founder of FieCo Accountancy & Marketing, AAT Tutor of the Year 2026 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

You often see when people want to make a change in their career, they press the nuclear button. She started an AAT level two apprenticeship at 47 years old. I'm gonna leave my firm. I think it's it's never too late. I think you've got to let go of the things you can't control. Staying with one employer, unfortunately, has become less and less rewarding.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Hello, and welcome to the very first episode of Balancing Ambition, the monthly podcast from AAT. I'm today's host, Zoe Smith. In our first episode, we're going to be exploring the topic of careers without a straight line, or squiggly careers as they're often known. Careers don't have to follow one expected pathway. Not everyone moves from education into one job, one industry, with one long-term plan. We now have more choices, more opportunities, and more flexibility. Some people change direction completely. Others take sideways steps or discover their strengths later on. And often those experiences become their biggest advantage. So actually, our career path should be as unique as we are as individuals. Joining me to explore this topic are our guests, career coach James Green from Vox Partners, and we also have Ellis Harris Bolter. Within the AT community, Ellis is a celebrated award winner, winning AT Professional Member of the Year at last year's AT Impact Awards, and then this year, AT Training Provider of the Year at the AT Training Provider Awards, recognizing Ellis' dedication to helping his students succeed. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for being here. And Ellis, I'm going to ask you to talk a little bit more about your career a little bit later on. So you can share that with us. But before we dive in, as you probably guessed from the title of our podcast, 80 is all about supporting ambition. So we're going to be asking each of our guests at the beginning of the episode just to share one ambition with us, something that you are looking to do or achieve in the next 12 months. So it can be personal, more professional, big or small. So, James, I'm going to ask you first.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

I think the the main one for me is we're in year two of our business. Okay. Double revenue. Simple. Wow. Easy. Simple and easy. I like it. Just double it. Yeah. And do some sort of crazy long run potentially.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Fantastic. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

One personal, one professional.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Brilliant. Amazing. Thank you. And it's how much.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

I could also say double revenue. You know what? I think finding a work-life balance the last few years has not had that at all. And I'm getting there, but truly finding that. And I suppose LinkedIn to that, I do martial arts kung fu, so I'd like to grade to the next level too. So maybe achieving work-life balance will help that happen because it's not happening right now.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

I didn't know that about you, Ellis. That's uh excellent. Okay, great. So you both have one personal, one professional to share. Lovely, brilliant. So back to the topic for today, which is about succeeding with without that straight career path. So why do you think then that that sort of traditional career path of starting as a junior and then going up the career ladder, staying with one organization until you get your gold pocket watch, why is that not quite as relevant today?

SPEAKER_02 3:20

I think for me, um, being that company person is nowhere near as popular. And I think to be honest, it's it's a nature of the fact that finding new work and finding new professions is easier than ever ultimately with the career progression tools that you have. But also staying with one employer, it unfortunately has become less and less rewarding as well because you receive fewer pay rises and things like that. Whereas if you jump around, you do, I think, in my experience at least, tend to see greater career progression.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting perspective on that, Alice. Thank you. How about James for you? Why do you think it's less common?

SPEAKER_00 3:54

It's interesting that that that point on there is, I think there is a massive challenge in terms of the way businesses reward talent.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

I think it's changed. It used to be that loyalty paid.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

I think it does. You know, you see it in my role all the time. People who tend to be slightly under their market rate are the people who've been in their organization for 10 years. Not always, but quite a lot of the time. So there's that side of it. And I think the other piece is the rise in social media has given rise to an incredibly entrepreneurial generation. You know, I was give away my age, but I'm a millennial with a foot in both the analog and the digital. And I think our generation was probably the start of this, but didn't get exposed in the same way that people are to kind of social media and and the ability to make money at 15 years old and 12 years old. I think what that does to your brain in terms of your appetite for risk is transformational. I didn't start a business until I was 38, 39. And that fear piece that you have to get over to be able to do that was a really significant jump. But if you've done that early on in your career and life, I think that's a bit easier. And you start to see that there is opportunity everywhere. Yes. Um, and also human beings, the human condition is squiggly. It is. I'm not the same person I was five, six years ago, let alone 20 years ago. Why would I do the same thing?

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Yeah. I think that's a good point though, as well, on the idea behind social media unlocking that growth for younger and younger generation. I'm Gen Z, and I remember when I was growing up, that the big two careers that everyone wanted to be was a footballer or win the X Factor and be a singer. That was that was what I saw. Whereas now, actually, if I'm on TikTok, you've got people that are, you know, 18, 19, 20 starting businesses and actually really succeeding with them and promoting their journey. And people can achieve the same thing. There's there's no reason why they can't also do that.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Yeah. So do you think then that actually what defines a successful career has really changed in recent years, then?

SPEAKER_02 5:59

I think so. I think for me, a successful career is being somewhere that you feel valued and that you really enjoy going to work. Nobody wants to go to work dreading it and spend, you know, more than half of their life somewhere that they don't actually enjoy. So I think a successful career perhaps maybe used to mean getting to be the C CEO or a CFO in accountancy type thing. Whereas now I think a successful career is actually feeling fulfilled. And a lot of the time, I think especially younger people are driven by the idea of a challenge or a social uh something other than just career. They want to drive forward a have an impact on the world or something that they truly believe in. And I think that's my definition of a successful career.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah. And I think also coming back to your ambition about having that work-life balance, it seems so much more important to people now. And they want to make sure that they're getting some kind of satisfaction from their job, don't they? Like you said, and making sure they have time for the other elements that they want to achieve on a personal level. Absolutely. So I think that's a really interesting point. Anything to add, James?

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Well, I think success and ambition has always been a deeply personal thing, right? But the rat race in the binary way that it has been, you know, the industrial revolution version of the of the rat race that we've lived through for most of the last what hundred years or so is doesn't allow for people to have that kind of personal ambition for themselves. I think people have felt like I have to fit into these boxes. This is what will define success for me. I think the fact that the world is changing in AI, we talk about the impact on young people, very tough time to be coming into the job market as a young person.

unknown 7:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Partly because of AI. It kind of forces us to rethink what a career is and what it looks like, which allows more room for personal ambition.

unknown 7:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

It might be that you want to go and work every minute under the sun and become a CEO. That's a tough job. I don't want to do that. Yeah. I want some freedom to spend time with my kids and I want to be able to earn enough to be able to do the things I want to do with my family and build security. But there are different ways to be able to do that now. I think it feels more achievable to find your own route than it once was.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Yeah, definitely. So, what would you say then is one of the biggest advantages of having that more squiggly career and going out for achieving what it is that you want to do in your own route?

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Diversification of skill sets is so valuable in everything. You're no longer so take um, if you're hiring a corporate affairs director, which is the kind of space that we often work in, you're no longer looking for somebody who is just does media relations. You're looking for someone who has five or six different skill sets and can talk to the exec and be the lens through which the external world shines through into your business. But that takes a huge amount of understanding of different people and different ways of working. And by doing different things, you become a master of many different things, right? And I think that's really important. When when we started our business, suddenly instead of just being a headhunter, I was doing 10 different things and marketeer and building a website, I'm a terrible accountant, um, and all these other pieces. And and the the the the strings I've added to that bow will impact my career in ways I don't even know yet. I don't even know at this point. And I think that's really exciting.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Yeah, no, it really is. And so what what would you say then?

SPEAKER_02 9:22

Yeah, I mean, I don't think I could say it better than that, to be fair. I think it is the it is the skill sets that you gain. It's not just necessarily the technical skills as well, running your own business. I've experienced you you put on every hat under the sun and you've got to do it all. But also, it's the soft skills as well that are also just as important, just like you say, talking to senior people, you've got to be able to do that. Is necessarily just, you know, perhaps starting in one company and just staying there all the way through and having that kind of linear career. Do you gain all those skills necessarily? It depends whether you push yourself out of your comfort zone, I suppose. Yeah. But and anyone could get those skills. But I think jumping around and doing different things will give you more unique skills that you can apply to your next roles.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Yeah, no, I think that's a really good point. So, in the trying to be balanced about this, what's maybe one of the the drawbacks or disadvantages of a squiggly career compared to something where it's that much more straight line?

SPEAKER_02 10:18

I think a squiggly it's an interesting one because I suppose I have had a bit of a squiggly career. So I'm thinking, well, what is it that what is it that isn't so good about it? And because I've really enjoyed what I've kind of done.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Um, I think the drawbacks that potentially, if you're not careful, then you know, employers will think, well, actually, actually, are you the right person? Because, you know, from the way you've been moving about, you're gonna be with us for maybe three years and then you'll disappear or something like that, which I don't think is is necessarily that's the purpose of having a squiggly career. I think um people they they look for where they feel valued and and if and you know where they can grow. And if there's opportunity for growth, there's not necessarily going to be jumping about. But so I think maybe there's that risk around that. And then I suppose another bigger area of risk I would say is uncertainty. So I really struggle with uncertainty. I like to know exactly what I'm doing, and that that's the antithesis of having a squiggly career, because if I just wanted to get a nine to five and just work all the way through, you know, type thing, then I would have a lot more certainty.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Yes, yes. And I do think we probably do need to recognise the fact that actually it's not a one size fits all, is it, for everybody? And so for some people, even the way that our accountancy apprenticeships are designed, we have our accounts finance assistant, yeah, into um assistant accountant, into professional accounting technician. It's a step and that's the way that it goes. And for some people, that's the steps they want to take. It's then going to help them to become qualified accountants. And that's at the beginning, that's what they know they want to do, that's where they want to be. It's a comfort place for them to be, just to follow that path. But then for other people, the opportunity to be able to do more for that, that to take them in different directions to build up those skills. So it is a case of what works for you, isn't it? But it's nice that people have the opportunity to be able to, both are acceptable, both are great things for people to be able to do. Uh and like you said, there are lots of advantages for having different directions that your career can go in.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Absolutely. I would just say as well, I'm talking from an enormous point of privilege. I have a partner who earns well and he supports me in what I do. Um, I don't have children. I'm quite free to, I could, you know, go and find another job without worrying. Oh, you know, am I going to be able to pay the mortgage type thing? You know, I'm I'm very privileged in talking about squeagly careers, but it's not going to be as easy as option as that for someone with more dependence and more things to consider. So yeah, you're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Yeah. You started your business when you were relatively young. Did you have you found that you've needed to actively seek out mentorship and senior people? Because I think that's that's always a really big challenge. We we forget how important it is to learn from people with 20 years experience. The world's gone very it's all about being young. Um, but you can't buy experience. And and I think that's such an important thing to be able to tap into.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

You're absolutely right. I made critical errors when I started my business. Um, and particularly, I wouldn't repeat them, particularly, you know, pricing was uh the one thing that I did wrong, and it's still causing you know negative growth in the longer term because of that. And so I think I should have seeked more mentorship when I started. And to be fair, I say that I should probably do it now too.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

It's never too never too late to see that. But one thing that Ellis has done from a personal experience is actually he's become a mentor uh and he's helped out my my daughter and my son-in-law to set up their business and help them to avoid some of the mistakes that you made. So that's been been great that you've taken on that very handy.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

Another role that you've done.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

So thank you for that. But what when um employers are looking at people that have had lots of different experiences and a variety of different experiences, what is it you think that makes them kind of stand out then when they're looking to recruit? Or is there anything that they may feel differently when they're looking at someone who has moved around a lot?

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Um unfortunately, I don't think the world has changed, particularly when it comes to hiring attitudes. So there is there's an education piece around the way people hire and appoint. Um and we're still stuck, I think, in the large part in a space where people want to see five years here, ten years there. Um the joy of working with a headhunter is they bring life to the candidates. That's kind of our job. Um, and you're able to help people understand why those experiences might benefit them as an organization. You know, one of the things that frustrates me is when somebody is stuck in I need someone from this specific sector. It's like, well, but then they'll just do the things you've always done. How does that change things for you? Um, so I think there is still a bit of an education piece. And you look at the market over the last three years, which has been pretty depressed, not the worst market we've seen ever, but it's been a very long drawn-out dip. And you've got a huge number of people who've been out of work and have been forced into squiggly careers in a weird in a weird way. Yes. And actually, the experiences that they've gained in that period will be really valuable to the next person to hire them on a permanent basis. But it's it's on us and on hiring managers and on HR teams to actually find ways of articulating that. And I don't think the world is nailing that at the moment, if I'm honest.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Still a little bit more work to do with helping people to see.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Yeah. I mean, you you've got you've got business leaders who grew up in a world where, you know, get on the phones, I've got a Rolodex, everything is this kind of offline approach to the world. Then you've got this group in the middle who are becoming the the next group of leaders who had a foot in both camps. And I think they're all trying to come to grips with what is going on with Gen Z and what's going on at the other end. And there's this failure to understand why people are approaching their careers in a different way to the way I did 30, 40 years ago.

unknown 16:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

And I I don't think that's new. I think that's probably happened to every generation. Yeah. But there's an education there, I think.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Yeah, no, definitely. Now, in our uh AT community with our students, we have people of all ages, all different backgrounds. Um, and some people do start studying an AAT qualification quite late in life. What would you say to somebody who felt that actually it was they were too far down their career path, too late in life, to start to retrain for as an accountant or a bookkeeper?

SPEAKER_02 16:37

Oh, for me, I can advocate for this 100% because my mom, who now works with my business, she started an AAT level two apprenticeship at 47 years old. And she had 20 years in the NHS, and she's an inspiration to me because she, you know, did all that time and then decided actually I am ready for something new. And I had that very strange moment of being her son, her boss, and her tutor, which was a very strange time. But uh, it was, yeah, I mean, and she I think she sees the rewards of doing that now. Like she didn't want to go into a long-term study, but she's really, I think, glad that she did the level two. I think it's it's never too late. A lot of people assume that apprenticeships are just for people under 25 or whatever, but no, they're for everyone. And I think that no matter where you're at, it's it's never too late to change career.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Wonderful. And I hope some of our listeners will also be inspired by your mum in the same way that you have, because I think that's a fantastic example. Really lovely. Yeah, no, that's great. What would you say, though, so is the most common mistake that career switchers can make when they're applying for those new roles.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

I I think you have to accept that you're going back to school.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

No one enjoys the first three years of their career. It's hard. I remember just just just learning to show up and to write an email that's a business appropriate email and do all of this, and then you're trying to understand the space that you're going into, you're gonna have to put in the hours. So if you're going to switch careers, accept that you're not the person in this career that you are in your previous career, yeah. Um, and be realistic with about with yourself about it. You'll probably accelerate quicker than you would have done if you were a grad. But you do have to be kind of humble enough, I think, with yourself to go back to school, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Yeah, I think that's really good advice to remember about being humble. And uh, yeah, it's a good idea when you're moving into that. Yeah. As a general role, we should all be a bit more humble. Yes. Uh, what about you, Ellis? What would you recommend for those career changes?

SPEAKER_02 18:40

I think being open to learning, very similar on trends to you, but yeah, I mean, if you are career changing, I think you're already in that headspace, to be fair, because you know, if you weren't open to learning, you'd just stick at what you were doing. So I think being open to trying new things and uh you know advancing. I know that, you know, there's so many opportunities just beyond your career, you know, if you want to um, you know, become carbon literate and things like that, then employers are often really supportive to actually allow you to grow in those ways as well. So it's not just necessarily got to be a whole career change, but maybe actually just growing within your existing career, there's more opportunities that you can take advantage of if you're open to that learning.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

There's there's a really good, I mean, you you often see when people want to make a change in their career, they press the nuclear button and go, I'm gonna leave my firm, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. Why wouldn't you take a firm that already knows you and challenge them to help you develop into a different space? Start where you already have a certain amount of capital. Um, and so often you'll see people just walk away from something when actually have you even asked if there's an opportunity to do something different? Lots of businesses will give you opportunities to go and do different things. Um so yeah, that's always I think something you should consider when you're doing that.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

I think that's a fantastic piece of advice. And actually, you've got nothing to lose because if you're gonna go anyway, by speaking to them, seeing if there's something there, they know you, they're more likely to support you. Yeah, I think that's something that probably can really resonate with our listeners. Thank you. Now, when people do go, because you were talking about from a recruitment side of things, that sometimes not all employers are seeing the benefits it of people that are changing careers, or maybe have had a gap, they've taken time out to to go travelling, or they've taken time out to look after their families. How is it best to kind of explain that career gap on your CV but in an interview setting?

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Be honest and tell a good story and do something.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

So I think firstly, if somebody doesn't understand you taking time out to support your family, they're not the right firm for you.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

No.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

So that's that's let's not worry about them.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Um the travelling thing, I think, you know, if you're two years into your career and you need a career break, there's a question to be asked there. Um so you have to think about the consequences of of that. If it's someone who's like 10 years down the line, I think that's easier. Yeah. Um, but I think I think generally it's having a good story to tell. And it's if you've been forced out of work, which lots of people have in the last three years with redundancy, uh do something, whether that's learning a new skill, and it could be it could be learning to paint, it could be doing karate or jiu-jitsu, or it could be anything, or it could be volunteering within your skill set for a charity. Have something that you've been doing rather than just kind of sitting and waiting for the right thing to come along. I think showing that you're proactive, particularly if you're gonna then change career, is probably the thing that people are gonna look for more than anything else.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah, absolutely. So having a bit of an explanation of what you've done, what you've achieved in that time still is gonna make all the difference.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Huge achievements. It's just I I I didn't spend my entire time worrying and wallowing in pity or in you know, worrying about. This kind of next move, I was actually out there doing something as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yeah, it demonstrates that proactive approach, then doesn't it? Yeah. No, that's great. Anything to add, Alice?

SPEAKER_02 22:08

I think I would just think in the idea of pulling lessons from, you know, if you go in traveling, what have you achieved whilst you're traveling? Have you learned to appreciate different cultures and have you learned to grow new skills in networking and things like that? There's always pluses you can take from that. But I really like the idea that you've said of actually, you know, pulling out, doing something during that time. And I think a lot of people that are ambitious in their career will, and naturally listening to podcasts like this, will probably be thinking, oh, what could I do right now when I'm not doing anything at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Any advice for you, James, about people not putting pressure on themselves?

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Yeah, I think you've got to let go of the things you can't control.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

It's easy advice to give, um, harder to take, but it it's it's such an important skill to learn. Um, we were talking about this before, um, before we we sat down. It's I think it's particularly difficult in people who have studied for a profession.

unknown 23:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Because the whole idea is that you are kind of mapping out a future that has a certain degree of certainty to it. But the world is full of uncertainty. And having an open orientation because you're not necessarily overly planning what's coming next will open up opportunities that you could never even have kind of dreamed of and thought of. It's a hard thing to do, but it's such a useful skill. Just do what you're doing now and do it really well. Yeah, everything else will kind of take it, take, take care of itself. When I think about us and the business that we're building, we're 18 months in. What are my ambitions for five years? I don't know. I don't know. Build a great business.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

I know what you're doing in two years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Doubling.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Um, but build a great business and what will be will be. And build a the foundations of your career and have an open orientation and good things will come your way. Um, it's a bit of a twee answer, I suppose, but it works.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

It does, yeah. And I don't think what we're saying here is about the fact that actually studying for your AT qualification is saying it you're not going to go on to become an accountant or to use that, but you might just move into a different industry. Yeah. And we'd say, you know, sometimes our students would come in and they're like, I want to be work for the top four. That's where I want to be, that's what I want to do. But actually, once they had opportunities, they they, because of their love of football, they went to work as in the finance team within a football club, which had really helped. Or people that have uh you know got a great interest in in Formula One. We had people go in and working for Red Bull. So they were in the finance team within within Red Bull. So it's about knowing that you can move industries within the skills that you've created as well, rather than it being practices where I want to be. I'm gonna be a tax accountant. I don't think many people say at the age of 10, I'm gonna be a tax accountant, do they? But you know, it's it's about being open and seeing where those skills take you. We've come to uh the a myth busting opportunity now, gentlemen. So I'm going to say a statement and I'd like you to tell me whether you think that it's a myth or reality.

unknown 25:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

So ready? We're gonna have paddles at first. I'm just uh yeah, let's go with this. So uh do employers mind gaps on CV, myth or reality?

unknown 25:19

Reality.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

We'll probably be better on this one, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Reality. Um no matter how much you try and take bias out of the process, human beings will put it in there in one way, shape, or form, and they need to be educated in the right way. And and so you do have to be conscious of it. You can't ignore the reality of how people are gonna respond to a gap, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Exactly. So because that is the case, what is the approach then? Just remind us that uh uh listeners are gonna have to do when they do have a gap, what approach do they need to take?

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Tell a great story, be proactive.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Yeah, yeah. Put put it in your cover letter, can't you? Talk about what you learned, what you did in that time, what you achieved. Yeah, yeah, being proactive. Fantastic. So next, myth or reality? Changing industries means completely starting over. Myth or reality.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Myth. Myth.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

So it points to what you were saying before, doesn't it? About the fact that actually you're not completely starting from scratch because you've already built up so many of your skills.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Fantastic. And promotions should always be upwards. Myth or reality?

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Myth. Huge myth. Off Theresa May. That's a myth.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Fantastic. Well, thank you both so much for coming and joining me today. It's been lovely talking to you. Uh, it's been great to hear your views, your top tips, uh, the ambitions that you've put forward for you. So uh thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Thank you very much.