AAT - Balancing ambition
Welcome to Balancing ambition.
Our monthly podcast is designed to empower and support you as you build your career in finance, whether you’re just starting out, looking for what’s next, or trying to strike a better work/life balance.
Through honest discussion, each episode brings together voices from across the AAT community and wider to share experiences, challenges, and practical advice you can actually follow.
AAT - Balancing ambition
Human skills you need in an AI world
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Whether you think AI is a friend or foe, there’s no denying it’s shaking up the accountancy industry.
From critical thinking to communication, technical knowledge and real-world experience, the second episode of Balancing ambition explores the skills people need to focus on as they look to start and grow their careers.
Guests
Ali Jaw, founder and director of Severn Accounting
John Toon, chartered accountant, speaker, consultant and investor
But the key thing for me in terms of what skill you really need to embed in in your culture of an organization is around curiosities.
SPEAKER_01AI can be very confident, but confidently wrong as well in default, you know, like if you don't do your due diligence.
SPEAKER_00But our world of accounting has never been more disrupted.
SPEAKER_03Hello and welcome to Balancing Ambition, the monthly podcast from AAT. I'm your host, Zoe Smith. Today we're talking about AI. Certainly one of the hottest topics across every industry right now. But in this episode, we'll be focusing specifically on the human skills that are becoming even more important as AI becomes more prominent in the workplace. Skills like communication, critical thinking, to collaboration, adaptability, and professional judgment. We'll be exploring the skills people need to develop as technology continues to transform the world of work. Joining me on our sofas today are Ali Jaw, founder and director of Seven Accounting, and part of AAT's Members Advisory Council. And also joining us is John Toon, chartered accountant, speaker, early adopter, investor, and consultant. It's great to have you both with us.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Now, at the start of every episode, we always ask our guests if they can share with us one ambition, something that you are planning on wanting to do over the coming months that can be big or small, professional or personal. So, Ali, I'm going to come to you first.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Is there anything that you have planned as your ambition for the next 12 months?
SPEAKER_01Pretty simple, really. So we uh just uh keep growing and keep simplifying as much as possible, uh helping clients understand the number at a very simple level rather than complicating it because running a business is tough enough. So my my my overall aim really for the next year or so is to keep growing, keep learning, understanding how AI works even deeper.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01But simplifying it for the client.
SPEAKER_03Wonderful.
SPEAKER_01Making it simple, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, nice ambition. Thank you. And John, how about you?
SPEAKER_00Um well, I think after my uh mild travel horror story this morning, I think my ambition is really just to get home at some point this evening. I'm sorry. It's all good. Um but I think um you know my main kind of like if you like career ambition uh for the next sort of six to twelve months. Um, you know, my role at HLB International as a as a head of technology is really to kind of help our firms mature um and to adapt to the technology landscape that's changing kind of around them every day. Um and so you know the big thing for us is around AI education and development and implementation and to kind of get our firms, you know, I was saying this to Ali before, get our firms come from like decision making to operationalization uh of these of these technologies and practices so that they can you know reap the benefits of that as they go forward.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, fantastic. So big ambitions you've got then for the coming months. So back to our topic then about human skills in an AI world. So as you said, things are changing every day at the moment with AI, aren't they? It's something that's constantly changing. How do you think that that is impacting on the way that we work in accountancy or finance? Big question.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I I think for me, you know, um, you know, the big the biggest challenge for I think for accountants, whether they're in in practice or in business, is like you say, like pace of change has accelerated so much. And people were already struggling with the pace of change before AI came along in terms of like what's the best kind of technology to use in my in my business? How do we implement it? How do we make sure it's successful? And and that's kind of just exploded, you know, 10 times, 100 times, whatever the number might be. Um and so I I think you know the the challenge for firms and for people in organizations is really around um you know not getting too bogged down and kind of trying to keep on top of everything because that's gonna be impossible. And really about you know trying to just sort of understand how these trends are changing, you know, what's gonna stick, what's maybe not gonna stay, and what's gonna pass us by, and and then adapt to that and change. And I think you know, the key thing for me in terms of what skill you really need to embed in that, in in your culture of an organization, is around curiosity. It's about being willing to see something new, try it out. If it doesn't work, move on. If it does work, great, utilize it and accelerate its development.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think that's a really great approach to have and a good attitude, isn't it? About making sure that you can you can adapt to whatever country. Fantastic. Ali, what about your thoughts on it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, just like John, I think uh the the change is quite rapid um with AI and you can get bogged down on all the signing topics that comes in via AI. So it's a case of uh like John, just be curious, but also making so that you understand what's happening rather than just following the trend. Because the trend is is here to stay. AI is here to stay, is um it's not gonna take over the accountants all, but certainly the skills needed is gonna be very, very important in terms of being human, being able to make judgment cool, um, to see what's right and what's wrong, understanding basically, and to be able to communicate at a level because the change is rapid or just stay grounded, understanding that you know AI is here to stay, but it's not gonna take over the sector, as many people are uh alluding to. But of course, you have to stay curious because you know, especially for us in our sector, uh in practice, clients now are very, very savvy when it comes to AI. So you have to be on top of your game. Of course, you cannot just spend all your time learning about AI, but you must know what's going on.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yeah. It's always been so important as accountants, hasn't it, to make sure that you you keep your CPD up to date, you stay up to date about the accounting standards that are changing, regulation, tax changes, industry updates. That's always been something accountants have had to do. But it's even more important now, isn't it, with the way that's the same.
SPEAKER_01CPD, especially, you know. I'm I'm very happy that actually, especially for us in AAT, that a lot of branches now in the network are actually, you know, picking up topics, AI topics, because it's relevant at the moment. You cannot run away from it. So I'm very happy that we are helping and arm our members with the skills they need in this current day and age of AI.
SPEAKER_03Definitely. And a little shout out then to our branches. Absolutely. Our members, we want to encourage them to be attending those sessions, going to the to the to the branch events and making the most of those CPT events to be able to improve their knowledge and understanding of AI.
SPEAKER_01It's it's critical. I mean, like the branches are immense for me as a as a member, and they are the value that they provide. I just wish more of our members are aware of what's happening there because just come and attend a uh a branch meeting.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh take up a role, maybe even. Like you you you would be amazed what you can learn coming to the branches. Yeah. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03And then nice events. You know, you go to Birmingham, they'll give you chips as well. So that's nice. So that's good. So coming back to the topic, sorry, uh, away from chips. So do you think that uh because of the amount of AI that we have and the way that is impacting on the work, that there's it's more valuable for accountants to make sure that they're keeping their professional standards and ethics?
SPEAKER_00Well, that's a big question as well, isn't it? Um I mean, I I I mean, clearly the answer is yes, right. I mean, that's fundamental to trust in our industry, is having your level of professional standards, a level of ethics in terms of you making sure that you know, when you're providing advice to clients that it's reasonable and and and you can back that up with something. Um, you know, and we're and I think we you know we've we're all aware of like you know some of the horror stories that we've seen over the last few years in terms of you know people providing poor tax advice or you know, particularly around things like RD and and and you know um employment uh you know uh expenses and stuff like that. And so you know, I think it's it's paramount you're really to do that. Um I think the the challenge as well is also that we've seen as a consequence of AI is that we've also seen some poor headlines where firms have, you know, not just in the accounting profession but in the legal profession and other places have relied on AI and not like done their normal due diligence in terms of like checking and reviewing the data and the information that they're getting before they send it out, which is just frankly embarrassing, really. You know, and and so you know, clearly it's here to stay. I I think you know there are elements where you can also then potentially use AI to supplement that and to help with your uh professional judgment, to help with your review of data and information. And I actually think, you know, in the same way that we kind of saw cloud accounting kind of be a bit of a superpower for smaller firms and smaller bookkeeping practices to kind of broaden the horizons in terms of the amount of work that they can do. It also AI does almost the same, you know, for firms in terms of you you suddenly can get access to a whole bunch of additional information and knowledge. You could potentially then branch out into providing more specialist advice. The risk, of course, and it kind of goes back to the CPD thing, right, is making sure that you're comfortable that what you're then providing to clients is reliable and reassuring.
SPEAKER_01You you've hit it right there, John. When you say due diligence, you you have to verify what's happening because as we were just talking about earlier, AI can be very confident, but confidently wrong as well in the phone. You know, like if you don't do your due diligence, it might look right in this on the surface, but you have to be curious, as you touched on earlier. And of course, ethics is is going to be very, very important. As an example, in practice, we cannot just, for instance, use clients' data and just you know dump it on the AI tool because you haven't got the client's you know consent consent to to do that. So all around GPD, uh uh GDPR as well, it's very, very important to make sure that you are following those rules. And as an accountant, you know that professional skepticism has to happen. Because otherwise you might just wrong lead yourself to the wrong path and is it can be very, very dangerous. So, yes, due diligence and be curious, making sure that whatever you put out there is actually uh ethically right, but also professional skepticism. Know that you are um regulated by a professional body like the AAT.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01And you don't want to make sure that you break them rules. Yes, don't upset AAT. That's what I was saying. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03So, what would you say are the main qualities and experiences that AI can't replicate?
SPEAKER_01For me, personally, I think it's judgment to be able to uh uh read the room. Yes. Uh emotions, like where we're sitting there in the air, you know, smiling and talking. AI can never do that, in my view, even if they make robots. Yeah. They couldn't do that. Yeah, that's that's that's even a way of must have that's the one skill, the human skills, that I think would here to stay, to be able to make judgment, to be able to see a scenario and then uh you know decipher the scenario and also make sure that you can you can make a judgment based on that scenario. Yeah, I will give you the results, but as an accountant, you still have to have that skill to be able to make the decision, help the or help business uh owners to make the decisions.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because the clients, that's what they want, don't they? They want somebody to be able to help them look at look at the data. Yeah, what does it mean to them?
SPEAKER_04Exactly.
SPEAKER_03And they still need that human touch.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so that's great. Anything to add to that, John?
SPEAKER_00No, I I think um, yeah, yeah, you're right, is that the the judgment's really a key bit of what sets us apart as professionals as well, right? You know, and that sets us apart from anyone else that wants to pretend to be an accountant, but isn't kind of like you hasn't gone through the process of of getting there and and keeping up their CPD. Yeah. I I think you I I will sort of play devil's advocate a little bit here, and I will say that I think potentially in the future we'll start to see more of the models being able to perform some kind of judgmental type decision making. Um, and and you they'll be able to learn from the inputs that we're providing them already as we kind of continue to use these tools. So there is a there is a bit of a risk there. Um, but I guess to maybe to extend the point about you know, we're here in a room, right, sitting around a t you know, sitting around having a conversation. You know, you're absolutely right. AI cannot replicate that, you know, and and I think the key thing for us as you know business leaders and and and people going forward is to kind of figure out you know, what is it that our clients want from us or what is it that the people that we work with want from us? Because I do think that we'll probably start to see a more stratified approach to the way that we deal with clients, you know, and and I don't want to kind of split this across age boundaries, but that's the typical way that you do it. And you might find that your older clients, you know, and I'm old, right? I'll put that out there. You know, your older clients might want to continue to have that face-to-face, you know, that kind of you know, being able to pick up the phone, being able to come into an office and have a meeting, whereas younger clients, you know, may well get to a point where actually, you know, they've grown up with these models around them. You know, we we hear stories about people having relationships with some of these models as well or getting like personal advice from them and stuff. So they do place a greater reliance, I would say, on the outputs of these things, whether they're reliable or not, like is a separate question. But but that does mean that maybe as businesses we need to kind of think about the way that we approach future customers because they they may not value the personal relationship in the same way that maybe the current cohort of clients do.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because there definitely is going to be a different expectation of clients, isn't there, of things that they're going to be asking for. Sure. Yeah. So it's making sure that we're aware. They're going to want the information faster. They're going to want to have something straight away to take into a boardroom that you you just need to be able to provide. But it's about getting that information that can be generated quickly, but then putting the reasoning, the thoughts, that professional judgment behind it in that way, which is which is really important.
SPEAKER_01You explain it to them in the level that they can understand to be able to make the decisions. And you yeah, I think um, John, you're right. I mean, like the the Gen Z, as they call them, um, might be actually in that bracket. So perhaps those ones wouldn't necessarily have to come and see you face to face. But I still think um as it's in business, it's still you do business with people, in my view. Um and then and then people that you uh there's a saying in what is it you do people with you know, like and trust. So for me, uh having that personal relationships uh is still very, very relevant, I think. And I think as the future we go into the future is still gonna be relevant.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, definitely. That human touch is really important.
SPEAKER_01That's human touch.
SPEAKER_03But do you think that AI is making accountancy more of an exciting career for things that are coming through?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I I I think for sure. I mean, I I I mean, you know, maybe it's because I'm a bit more of a technologist as well, you know, but I think I think you know, our world of accounting, you know, has never been more disrupted than it than it is at the moment. And um, you know, that just means that the opportunities are you're just you know exploding exponentially almost, you know, in terms of you know, the the kind of traditional accounting you training is is changing, the the way that you kind of absorb and collect knowledge and information is changing, the way that you then disseminate that out to clients and to share that all of this is changing, our communication channels are changing, you know, there's a myriad of stuff that's that's happening out there. And you know, as I said, I kind of work for a global organization. I do also think that you know the world is you know it's getting smaller. I know that's a kind of a bit of a cliche, but it but it does mean that you the you know we're not just we're not operating solely in the UK anymore and being you know, just having competition from within the UK. There is potentially competition from outside that, whether it's competition for talent, whether it's competition for clients and businesses, uh, and those kind of opportunities. So I just think there is there is immense opportunity if you're a curious, you know, relatively intelligent individual out there wanting to get into a you know a business that is you know fascinating, where you get to deal with different types of organizations and different types of people all the time, plus have a whole bunch of challenges thrown at you almost daily, then there isn't a better or better place to be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, fantastic. Definitely. I I I couldn't agree more, John. I think it's an exciting time we are in the profession. Uh certainly uh for us as accountants because the days of um number crunching and um, you know, bulk down in the inexpensive and all of that stuff, you know, the manual work is actually being taken over by the AI. So therefore, we have more time now uh to be able to focus on that strategic level. Absolutely uh where you can actually make more of an impact for the business owners, hopefully, yeah, giving them the right information, the right advice to help them steer them to the right direction to make the right decisions. So, yeah, I agree, is is is is is um is super exciting at the moment.
SPEAKER_00And I sorry, I was just gonna say, I think also like we sort of see that firms and businesses are increasingly stratified as well, right, across this breadth of tech, not just technology adoption, but kind of you know business maturity, your operational maturity, the way that they go to market with their customers and their clients and stuff. And so that in itself presents a huge you know opportunity for people to kind of get in there and sort of start making a change. I think the ability for you know someone even at a very junior level in a in a in an organization, whether it's a practice or a business, to make an impact and make a significant change is like it's like unbounded almost because you could come in and suddenly say, Hey, I've used, I don't know, ChatGPT or Claude or Copilot to do this and suddenly like accelerated the way that the business operates.
SPEAKER_01Um that's that's super right, John. Super right, super right. Um mean to it right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's not good.
SPEAKER_01Uh but just to give an example about the um Gineo, like we sent recently um we've had a um AI survey or tech survey, I would say, to a client that's in the construction sector. He's a gineo role, but he had to go to the client's um site, uh, and then of course, through the site, we say you just need to go to go to the client and and uh make sure that you study all their processes, come back, and then the light goes in, come back. By the time he comes back to the office, within a couple of hours, he was able to reinvent, really, to be honest, how the client works in terms of their processes and systems and design brand new systems and up till today, like and this happens about a couple of weeks ago. The client still couldn't believe it that they were working in the hold at the speed at which it is done, and it's a very junior level. That pass in maybe a few years' time ago would have been still in his PC on uh on a spreadsheet, you know, all day.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So that tells you where the sector is moving. Even very, very junior roles are having that, you know, strategic opportunity to be able to make them massive, massive change for a business. Definitely, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I think our AAT qualifications are still teaching the basics because they need to know it, they need to understand what's happening. But whilst we're teaching them how to do a bank reconciliation, our juniors don't have to do that anymore because they're being done, which it gives them the opportunity to then go and, as you said, have an impact now. They know what's happening, errors are being picked up and things like that. But actually, their time then can be spent supporting clients, having more of an impact, and also seeing things differently of how they can make improvements and put forward recommendations.
SPEAKER_01AI, in my view, I mean, John would probably disagree that AI would eventually do that, but for the time being at least, yeah, you have to be able to make that judgment call.
SPEAKER_03Great, fantastic. And so how has AI changed the way that you work and your your approach to your career?
SPEAKER_01Wow, um, yeah, uh, it has changed it massively. Uh it it it has must work faster, I would say. Yeah. Uh in terms of producing resources that we need. Uh it has helped us to come away from the daily mundane task of, you know, you know, things that would have taken long, long time to do.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Now AI has fewer time. So therefore allowing us, especially us as in practice, uh that to be able to focus on that strategic level, to be able to help the clients say what these numbers actually mean. Why is that profit and loss down and what what makes it go down? Don't just say, oh, for instance, uh we've seen GPs down 15%. But why?
SPEAKER_03Why? Yeah. You know, you're gonna do about it. Dig deeper, right?
SPEAKER_01And see, okay, is it because of that there's no demand for, for instance, or is it because of um uh costs have gone up? And what's the reason for that? Yeah. You need to be able to dig deeper, hence be able to give the client the information so that they can make the right decision for the process. Definitely.
SPEAKER_03And that's what we've evolved and developed into our qualifications. It's about the fact that you're picking up what's happened, but not just saying this is the bottom line, what's but it's why. What does that mean? What now do you need to do with that? What's your recommendation?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Asking the questions the accountant of the future, yeah, exactly. The advisory, yeah, the strategy, uh, and asking the right questions are the are the future.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, definitely. John, for you, how has it changed the way that you approach your job?
SPEAKER_00Um well, I mean, it it's certainly helped me because my my role has changed. You know, I was in a practice role, you uh being a traditional accountant, if you like, and and and then over time you know pivoted more into a technology role. I think you ironically for me, the the the part of using AI, particularly like LLMs, you know, in the last you know, 18 to 12 months, uh 18 to 24 months has meant that you know I probably actually work harder for longer. Um I'm certainly not finding I've got a bunch of free tests and I can I can start. Advising businesses or clients or the firms that I work with. Um but I but I think that's a reality. Like it it has made us super efficient, but I've actually I think you know we're we're we're gluttons for punishment in the accounting. segment I think in terms of like you know just because we realise an efficiency saving doesn't mention doesn't mean that we necessarily go home early you know with and and and you know I I actually find like you know some of the stuff that we can do now like really like unbelievably invigorating you know it's super exciting to play around with vibe coding tools it's really cool to play around with agents and see what the outcomes are even if sometimes they're complete rubbish um so so my kind of my my my level of interest if you like and and my level of engagement is probably at its highest for for a long time in terms of just my willingness to experiment and I've got the time and the opportunity to do that which is great as well. I I think in terms of you know uh what it's what it is doing in terms of like fundamental changes though for me is um you know it it it allows me to spread myself even more thinly which is not a great thing sometimes um but it but it does allow me to to to do more um but that's with the sort of you know the um um you know sort of the sort of self-breaking concept of being sure that you know if I if I start to go down a path where I'm not an expert that I make sure that I'm I'm you know I'm doing something within a set of boundaries. It's a little bit like when you go bowling and you put the the things up in the the guards up in the gutter you know just to just to make sure that you're I'm going down the right path and not doing anything. So so I probably spend even more time doing research on certain things than I used to do historically um because all of a sudden you know my world has become even more expanded in terms of the the the possibilities the capabilities that I have you know I was always quite good in the on behalf of your family I'm gonna suggest a little bit of self-discipline then give yourself hard time back you know self-discipline is something I don't think I'm ever gonna get from yeah yeah I mean my daughter got a bit nuts because she's like I can't believe you're still working at like nine o'clock or I get the same looks all every day all day I'm always especially now um I'm working from home a lot you know so but yes going back to the question though I think the accountants or at least professionals of the future are not the ones that give the right answers or the the the best answers but the one that asks the best questions.
SPEAKER_01Yes yeah because it's all about just having that why yes I think it's right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah yeah and I think you you you actually see this in your um I I do a lot of training for accounting firms on how to use LLMs at the moment and I quite often talk to them and sort of say you know look if you're a really good manager if you're a really good people manager at the moment you'll actually be a really good user of LLMs because number one is you know when you give a when you give a human being a junior member of staff in your team instructions if you're not giving them clear instructions if you're not giving them context if you're not giving them clarity if you're not telling them like what's the expected output then you're gonna get rubbish responses right a lot of crap and it's the same it's the same with LMs you're exactly the same yeah someone someone described an LLM to me as like you know it's a toddler with all of the world's knowledge in its brain you know and that's a little bit like you know what they're like um and so I I do think you know that concept of asking questions and being able to frame things really particularly is really really important. And it and and again for me in terms of like how I'm using AI at the moment I'm almost using it as like a bit of a sparring partner. It's almost like this kind of conversation. Absolutely I'll put something into it you'll ask a question you'll get a response back and then I'm challenging that is that right should we go down this this this way that way and and the interesting thing about using different models is they kind of challenge you in different ways and they they they push you down paths in different ways I I find chat gpt really irritating for this because it's it's it's always asking follow-up questions and never quite answering all my it's gonna be the same as I think what we have in the in the account space where you have the zero lovers you've got the lovers and now it's the same growth there's really different opinions for lots of different people.
SPEAKER_03It's very interesting to watch wearing different badges in the future do you think that AI is going to widen the skills back gap between employees? Or or is it going to narrow it? Which way is it going to go?
SPEAKER_01For me personally I think it depends. Right? Because if if for those actually that are not being trained or at least given the opportunity to train and those that actually those that are being given the skills and the opportunity to train yes I do believe it it can happen. But if if if if if if if there is a level playing field and training is offered and the opportunity to everyone then I think it it could go the other way and actually close the gap. So it all downs uh uh the leaders of of any business or organization really to give the people and empower them do you think if we give them the right training that they need to yeah I think that's a really good point.
SPEAKER_03And I think that then off the back of that it's the recommendation isn't it that's what employers need to be making sure that they do correct so that they haven't got the widening of the gap that they're they're giving people that legal playing to be able to have that change because otherwise there's a risk that those that actually because it's moving so fast it's um AI world um you know within a week or two you know or even month perhaps um you you know if if you are not up to speed you you can you know potentially be left behind so you don't yeah you need the right training and that curious mind.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I I think that that skill I mean the skills question's interesting right because I mean it's it's like what skills are we talking about in terms of like what what's going to get widened what's going to get narrowed you know just learning how to use ai is a skill in itself and I do think there's a huge gap at the moment. You know we're seeing you know some some people in in in firms and in businesses who are right at the probably you know the bleeding edge at the cutting edge doing you're just mind-blowing things in some instances sometimes doing complete complete rubbish as well let's let's be perfectly honest. But then we've got other firms at the moment and other people in the accounting segment at the moment who just have their head in the sand and just hoping that this passes them by and it never really comes to fruition.
SPEAKER_03That gap is going to get bigger than isn't it for those individuals it's continuously getting wider.
SPEAKER_00And we were kind of talking about this before we came on the pod you know and sort of saying you know is that like a fundamental strategic risk in terms of you know if you get so far behind will firms ever be able to close the gap if they do fall behind? And we we just don't know. I mean we we kind of anticipated this 10-15 years ago with cloud and yet we've kind of resolved around the fact that most firms have been able to kind of catch up and move up and the firms that had accelerated out in front have kind of slowed down and stuff. So it it's it's it's so difficult to predict. One of the things I would say more fundamentally though about broad accounting skills in general though is that you know in the same way that anyone can now pick up an LLM and start to vibe code something both really well and really badly you know you can also learn skills from an LLM so you could potentially learn how to do double entry bookkeeping you could potentially learn how to do a bank recognition and and so I guess the question then is isn't you know is um you what what value do we put on those skills in terms of you who should you learn them from how do you learn them? Is this just an alternative learning method which is really helpful for some people because some people hate to study and do exams and you know be in a classroom and everything else um and and then how do how do practices and how do businesses embrace that as an as a as an alternative way of learning you know I'm I'm a big believer of you know not just having one single platform to learn a skill in you know not just having you have someone come in and lecture you for example or someone do a webinar you or or have on-demand learning but having multiple ways of doing that because everyone learns it different ways interesting I I I agree to you with you John at that point but I also I think with especially with firms though I believe if you have the opportunity but without the structure people can just do whatever they want and you know you you have to make sure that as well as you give them the the tools to learn it's controlled uh in terms of what what they can put out especially to clients uh there must be still an oversight or somebody that uh you know that always make sure that everything is vetted before it leaves the farm because whilst the tools are great if used in the wrong way it can it can be very very dangerous as well at the same time.
SPEAKER_01But yeah I think uh organization making sure that there's a level playing field given every opportunity to all available people is going to be very very relevant for for every staff because you have the tendency of of course some people having the training and some don't and those that are for not having the training that there's a potential that or that um that they could be left behind if not given the right training.
SPEAKER_00And I I actually think I actually think that's what you've you've nailed down like one of the big mistakes I'm seeing firms all around the world doing when it comes to AI and implementation of AI is that they're either making one of two mistakes. Number one is they're just not making a decision and moving forward and and they're kind of getting hung up on what's the best model to use or what's the best solution to use. You know it's a little bit like you know we were laughing about people wearing their different badges and you know on zero QuickBooks sage free agent etc etc etc like what's the best general ledger out there they're all the same you know I I know that's going to upset a lot of people but but they are fundamentally all the same they do exactly the same things you're liking yeah they it's just a matter of like do you prefer how you log into one versus the other is one more suitable to your to your clients or to your business than another one yeah that that's the fundamental reality about it. When it comes to me is value for money John but when it comes to choosing choosing a model like choose one you know we we've no idea we can't predict whether any one of these models is going to outlast the other whether it's better than the other because it's an it's an arms race you know one's better than another this week next week it'll be a different one the week after it'll be a different one after that so so there's no point in like hanging a hanging hanging on and waiting to see what's going to win this battle because we just don't know when it's going to end. That's right. And then the other thing is like you know we once you've made that decision and you've you've you've got a product in your practice or in your business what I'm also seeing is like we just we just give it to the young kids. Young kids like technology so we'll just give it to a bunch of kids in a department or in a team or whatever and we'll let them experiment with it. But we won't give them we won't give them any support we won't give them any training uh we won't really give them any ability to communicate out the opportunities that they've created we won't give them any guidance.
SPEAKER_03But I guess this is where it comes back to employers making sure that they do the correct training for their employees don't they to make sure that they are but their training's difficult to access at the moment when it comes to AI because there isn't a broad amount of training out there.
SPEAKER_00And so you know firms I think this is where firms are struggling with that is that you the the context of how you get out there how you get that training is difficult. But what I would say is all of the LLMs have free training available to them. They all will teach you how to do prompts how to use the functionality of those products you don't have to pay for training but obviously you then have to allow people the time and the space to to do that training and absorb that knowledge.
SPEAKER_03So we're gonna move on to our quickfire round uh myth or reality.
SPEAKER_00I just want I'm gonna say a statement and I'd like to hear myth or reality probably it's gonna split the room but let's see so uh AI is going to make human skills less important in the workplace myth or reality myth reality oh I knew I'd split the room I knew it split the room but we've we've heard your views so we're gonna move on so uh AI will eliminate more jobs in accountancy than it's going to create myth or reality good and please we both agree on that that's a that's a good one so many opportunities are gonna be out there so many so many it's about the way that we adapt and give people to grow as well into business understanding business at a deeper level right yes and that's what AI is going to give us the freedom to make those strategic decisions absolutely uh last one then the future of work is humans and AI collaborating not competing myth or reality reality You're gonna say we're gonna be competing and fighting against AI I mean I think it goes back to the question right which was you know is there a future for accountants in this world yes absolutely there is but I do I you know I genuinely think you know AI is already starting to replace specific tasks and technology broadly has star is has already already replaced specific tasks in in the in the accounting you know um you know sort of space uh you know you think about accounts payable clerks right do you ever see an accounting role you know a job role for an accounts payable clerk anymore I mean it it's it's like a unicorn you don't see them very often anymore because it has been replaced by technology. Yeah but they're doing more exciting stuff about it. Exactly but that particular role has disappeared but that particular person who might have been doing that role is now doing something else potentially yes there there is a the biggest challenge I think particularly in accounting practice probably less so in business is we have a bunch of firms that are really good at delivering compliance and the likelihood that in the future for for many many firms compliance is going to come going to become even more automated as a consequence of AI and that's also probably going to likely have an impact on price. So the margins for practices is going to start to fall. So the challenge for practices is to figure out like how do I how do I get ahead of that how do I anticipate that how do I pivot how do I train my staff to do the other stuff that we've been talking about and and also potentially how how do I make those difficult choices if maybe some of those staff aren't going to be capable of changing into those new roles and stuff. I think that's the big challenge. So I'm not I'm not a pessimist about the accounting segment per se as a consequence of AI but I do think that over the next few years we're gonna see AI challenging particular roles and particular jobs um and certainly tasks that that that that we kind of just take as bread and butter. But what we'll start to see is a is a pivot away from that but it's gonna be fascinating to see how the broader your uh your counting industry your moves to that and and and whether you the timelines is the great unknown of this we can say we can say it's all going to disappear in two years.
SPEAKER_01Yeah or it could be 10 years like we we just though um perhaps maybe I I was sorry to say but yeah it's gonna be good for both I I think in in terms of how we work right I think it is a collaborative effort rather than us against AI in my view because I think AI are tools and for is for for us accountants human accountants to use those tools to be able to actually make things even better. Yes yeah at the at a strategic level uh because uh as I as we said earlier there are certain uh traits that AI don't have that humans have and that's our that's our advantage as well coming back to your lovely trainee that went out and made a difference that impact that they had yeah that's that's right that impact that they had in the same way go and see how people are doing this and you know unless you have again Elon Musk who knows maybe you might design one other one day but for now at least AI couldn't go to a factory and then see how things are working and then be able to design something to help them you know even get even better.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So in that respect I think those roles the guineo roles you are right some of those roles will go but the guineos will actually just move to a different role to actually make it but it's incumbent on us to do that isn't it your opportunity I think that's the thing it's incumbent on on accounting business leaders to make sure that change happens and not to kind of just put your head in the sand and pretend nothing's going on because otherwise you know that you're gonna be left behind isn't it a great place to be as well you know we're talking about recruitment before isn't it a great place to be if you can sort of say look we're a real modern practice or a modern business trying to take advantage of this you know this AI world yeah we might not get everything right but what we're at least trying to do is like experiment and to move forward and to keep pace with the change that's happening around us and you know hopefully then deliver that out in terms of like good quality client service thank you so much for sharing your experiences your future ambitions and and your advice so uh and thank you to our listeners too for joining us today so much for having us yeah it's been a pleasure thank you so much thank you