Human skills you need in an AI world

Whether you think AI is a friend or foe, there’s no denying it’s shaking up the accountancy industry and changing the skills students need as they prepare for their next step.

From critical thinking to communication, technical knowledge and real-world experience, the second episode of Balancing ambition explores the skills people need to focus on as they look to start and grow their careers.

Guests

Ali Jaw, founder and director of Severn Accounting

John Toon, chartered accountant, speaker, consultant and investor  

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I think it's an exciting time we are in the profession. To make an impact and make a significant change. It's like it's like unbounded almost.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

It's not just about number crunching anymore.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

You cannot pass if you don't understand the basics.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

Hello and welcome to Balancing Ambition, the monthly podcast from AAT. I'm your host, Zoe Smith. Today we're talking about AI. Certainly one of the hottest topics across every industry right now. But in this episode, we'll be focusing specifically on the human skills that are becoming even more important as AI becomes more prominent in the workplace. Skills like communication, critical thinking, to collaboration, adaptability, and professional judgment. We'll be exploring the skills people need to develop as technology continues to transform the world of work. Joining me on our sofas today are Ali Jaw, founder and director of Seven Accounting, and part of AAT's Members Advisory Council. And also joining us is John Toon, charted accountant, speaker, early adopter, investor, and consultant. It's great to have you both with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Now, at the start of every episode, we always ask our guests if they can share with us one ambition, something that you are planning on wanting to do over the coming months that can be big or small, professional or personal. So, Ali, I'm going to come to you first.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Is there anything that you have planned as your ambition for the next 12 months?

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Pretty simple, really, Zoe. Just uh keep growing and keep simplifying as much as possible, uh, helping clients understand the number at a very simple level rather than complicating it. Because running a business is tough enough. So my my my overall aim really for the next year or so is to keep growing, keep learning, understanding how AI works even deeper.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

But simplifying it for the client.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Taking it simple, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Yeah, nice ambition. Thank you. And John, how about you?

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Um, well, I think after my uh mild travel horror story this morning, I think my ambition is really just to get home at some point this evening. Um sorry. Um, it's all good. Um but I think um, you know, my main kind of like, if you like, career ambition uh for the next sort of six to twelve months. Um, you know, my role at HLB International as a as a head of technology is really to kind of help our firms mature um and to adapt to the technology landscape that's changing kind of around them every day. Um and so you know, the big thing for us is around AI education and development implementation and to kind of get our firms, you know, I was saying this to Ali before, get our firms to come from like decision making to operationalization uh of these of these technologies and practices so that they can you know reap the benefits of that as they go forward.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Yeah, no, fantastic. So big ambitions you've got then for the coming months. So back to our topic then about human skills in an AI world. So as you said, things are changing every day at the moment with AI, aren't they? It's something that's constantly changing. How do you think that that is impacting on the way that we work in accountancy or finance? Big question.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Yeah, I mean, I I think for me, you know, um, you know, the big the biggest challenge for I think for accountants, whether they're in in practice or in business, is like you say, like pace of change has accelerated so much. And people were already struggling with the pace of change before AI came along in terms of like what's the best kind of technology to use in my in my business? How do how do we implement it? How do we make sure it's successful? And and that's kind of just exploded, you know, 10 times, 100 times, whatever the number might be. Um, and so I I think you know the the challenge for firms and for people in organizations is really around um you know not getting too bogged down and kind of trying to keep on top of everything because that's gonna be impossible. And really about you trying to just sort of understand how these trends are changing, you know, what's gonna stick, what's maybe not gonna stay, and what's gonna pass us by, and and then adapt to that and change. And I think you know, the key thing for me in terms of what skill you really need to embed in that, in in your culture of an organization, is around curiosity. It's about being willing to see something new, try it out. If it doesn't work, move on. If it does work, great, utilize it and accelerate its development.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Yeah, I think that's a really great approach to have and a good attitude, isn't it? About making sure that you can you can adapt to whatever comes. Fantastic. Halley, what about your thoughts on it?

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Yeah, just like John, I think uh the the change is quite rapid um with AI and you can get bogged down on older signing topics that comes in via AI. So it's a case of uh like John, just be curious, but also making sure that you understand what's happening rather than just following the trend. Because the trend is is here to stay. AI is here to stay, is um it's not gonna take over the accountants all, but certainly the skills needed is gonna be very, very important in terms of being human, being able to make judgment cool, um to see what's right and what's wrong, understanding basically, and to be able to communicate at a level because the change is rapid or just stay grounded, understanding that you know AI is here to stay, but it's not gonna take over the sector, as many people are uh alluding to. But of course, you have to stay curious because you know, especially for us in our sector, uh in practice, clients now are very, very savvy when it comes to AI. So you have to be on top of your game. Of course, you cannot just spend all your time learning about AI, but you must know what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Yes, yeah. It's always been so important as accountants, hasn't it, to make sure that you you keep your CPD up to date, you stay up to date about the accounting standards that are changing, regulation, tax changes, industry updates. That's always been something accountants have had to do. But it's even more important now, isn't it, with the way that's the same.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

I'm very happy that actually, especially for us in AAT, that a lot of branches now in the bank network are actually, you know, picking up topics, AI topics, because it's relevant at the moment. You cannot run away from it. So I'm very happy that we are helping and arm our members with the skills they need in this current day and age of AI.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Definitely. And a little shout out then to our branches. Absolutely, we want to encourage them to be attending those sessions, going to the to the to the branch events and making the most of those CPT events to be able to improve their knowledge and understanding of AI.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

It's it's critical. I mean, like the branches are immense for me as a as a member. And they are the value that they provide. I just wish more of our members are aware of what's happening there because just come and attend a branch meeting.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Uh take up a role, maybe even. Like you would be amazed what you can learn coming to the branches. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

And then nice events. You know, you go to Birmingham, they'll give you chips as well. So that's nice. So that's good. So coming back to the topic, sorry, uh, away from chips. So do you think that uh because of the amount of AI that we have and the way that is impacting on the work, that there's it's more valuable for accountants to make sure that they're keeping their professional standards and ethics?

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Well, that's a big question as well, isn't it? Um I mean, I I I mean, clearly the answer is yes, right? I mean, that's fundamental to trust in our industry, is having your level of professional standards, a level of ethics in terms of you making sure that, you know, when you're providing advice to clients that it's reasonable and and and you can back that up with something. Um, you know, and we're and I think we, you know, we've we're all aware of like you know, some of the horror stories that we've seen over the last few years in terms of you know people providing poor tax advice or you know, particularly around things like RD and and and you know um employment uh you know uh expenses and stuff like that. And so you know, I think it's it's paramount, you know, really to do that. Um I think the the challenge as well is also that we've seen as a consequence of AI is that we've also seen some poor headlines where firms have, you know, not just in the accounting profession, but in the legal profession and other places, have relied on AI and not like done their normal due diligence in terms of like checking and reviewing the data and the information that they're getting before they send it out, which is just frankly embarrassing, really. You know, and and so you know, clearly it's here to stay. I I think you know, there are elements where you can also then potentially use AI to supplement that and to help with your uh professional judgment, to help with your review of data and information. And I actually think, you know, in the same way that we kind of saw cloud accounting kind of be a bit of a superpower for smaller firms and smaller bookkeeping practices to kind of broaden the horizons in terms of the amount of work that they can do. It also AI does almost the same, you know, for firms in terms of you you suddenly can get access to a whole bunch of additional information and knowledge. You could potentially then branch out into providing more specialist advice. The risk, of course, and it kind of goes back to the CPD thing, right, is making sure that you're comfortable that what you're then providing to clients is reliable and reassuring.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

You've hit it right there, John. When you say due diligence, you you have to verify what's happening because as we were just talking about earlier, AI can be very confident, but confidently wrong as well in the phone. You know, that if you don't do your due diligence, it might look right in this on the surface, but you have to be curious, as you touched on earlier. And of course, ethics is is going to be very, very important. As an example, in practice, we cannot just, for instance, use clients' data and just you know dump it on the AI tool because you haven't got the client's, you know, consent. Consent to to do that. So all around GPD, uh uh GDPR as well, it's very, very important to make sure that you are following those rules. And as an accountant, you know, that professional skepticism has to happen. Because otherwise you might just wrong lead yourself to the wrong path and is it can be very, very dangerous. So, yes, due diligence and be curious, making sure that whatever you put out there is actually uh ethically right, but also professional skepticism. Know that you are um regulated by a professional body like the AAT.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

And you don't want to make sure that you break them rules. Yes, don't upset AAT. That's what I was saying. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

So, what would you say are the main qualities and experiences that AI can't replicate?

SPEAKER_01 10:41

For me, uh personally, I think it's judgment. To be able to uh uh read the room. Yes. Emotions, like where we're sitting there in the air, you know, smiling and talking. AI can never do that, in my view, even if they make robots. Yeah. They couldn't do that. That's that's that's that's the one skill. That's the one skill, the human skills that I think would here to stay, to be able to make judgment, to be able to see a scenario and then uh you know decipher the scenario and also make sure that you can you can make a judgment based on that scenario. Yeah, I will give you the results, but as an accountant, you still have to have that skill to be able to make the decision, help the or help business uh owners to make the decisions.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Yeah, because the clients, that's what they want, don't they? They want somebody to be able to help them look at look at the data. Yeah, what does it mean to them? Exactly. And they still need that human touch.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Yeah, so that's great. Anything to add to that, John?

SPEAKER_00 11:40

No, I I think um, yeah, yeah, you're right, is that the the judgment's really a key bit of what sets us apart as professionals as well, right? You know, and that sets us apart from anyone else that wants to pretend to be an accountant but isn't kind of like you hasn't gone through the process of of getting there and and keeping up their CPD. Yeah. I I think you I I will sort of play devil's advocate a little bit here, and I will say that I think potentially in the future we'll start to see more of the models being able to perform some kind of judgmental type decision making. Um and and you know, they'll be able to learn from the inputs that we're providing them already as we kind of continue to use these tools. So there is a there is a bit of a risk there. Um, but I guess to maybe to extend the point about you know, we're here in a room, right, sitting around a t you know, sitting around having a conversation, you know, you're absolutely right. AI cannot replicate that, you know, and and I think the key thing for us as you know business leaders and and and people going forward is to kind of figure out, you know, what is it that our clients want from us or what is it that the people that we work with want from us? Because I do think that we'll probably start to see a more stratified approach to the way that we deal with clients, you know, and and I don't want to kind of split this across age boundaries, but that's the typical way that you do it. And you might find that your older clients, you know, and I'm old, right? You know, your older clients might want to continue to have that face-to-face, you know, that kind of you know, being able to pick up the phone, being able to come into an office and have a meeting, whereas younger clients, you know, may well get to a point where actually, you know, they've grown up with these models around them. You we hear stories about people having relationships with some of these models as well or getting like personal advice from them and stuff. So they do place a greater reliance, I would say, on the outputs of these things, whether they're reliable or not is a separate question. But but that does mean that maybe as businesses we need to kind of think about the way that we approach future customers because they they may not value the personal relationship in the same way that maybe the current cohort of clients do.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Yeah, because there definitely is going to be a different expectation of clients. Good point, isn't there, of things that they're going to be asking for. Sure. Yeah. So it's making sure that we're aware. They're going to want the information faster. They're going to want to have something straight away to take into a boardroom that you you just need to be able to provide. But it's about getting that information that can be generated quickly, but then putting the reasoning, the thoughts, that professional judgment behind it in that way, which is which is really important.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

You explain it to them in the level that they can understand to be able to make the decisions. Exactly. But yeah, I think um, John, you're right. I mean, like the the Gen Z, as they call them, um, might be actually in that bracket. So perhaps those ones wouldn't necessarily have to come and see you face to face. But I still think um as is in business, it's still you do business with people, in my view. Um, and then and then people that you uh there's a saying in what is it you do people with you know, like and trust. So for me, uh having that personal relationships uh is still very, very relevant, I think. And I think as the future we go into the future, it's still gonna be relevant.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Yeah, definitely. That human touch is really important. That's human touch. But do you think that AI is making accountancy more of an exciting career for things that are coming through?

SPEAKER_00 14:51

I mean, I I I think for sure. I mean, I I I mean, you know, maybe it's because I'm a bit more of a technologist as well, you know, but I think I think you know, our world of accounting, you know, has never been more disrupted than it than it is at the moment. And um, you know, that just means that the opportunities are you're just you're exploding exponentially almost. You know, in terms of you know, the the kind of traditional accounting you training is is changing, the the way that you kind of absorb and collect knowledge and information is changing, the way that you then disseminate that out to clients and to share that all of this is changing, our communication channels are changing, you know, there's a myriad of stuff that's that's happening out there. And you know, as I said, I kind of work for a global organization. And I do also think that you know the world is you know it's getting smaller. I know that's a kind of a bit of a cliche, but it but it does mean that you the you know we're not just we're not operating solely in the UK anymore and being you know, just having competition from within the UK, there is potentially competition from outside that, whether it's competition for talent, whether it's competition for clients and businesses, uh and those kind of opportunities. So I just think there is there is immense opportunity. If you're a curious, you know, relatively intelligent individual out there wanting to get into a you know a business that is you know fascinating, where you get to deal with different types of organizations and different types of people all the time, plus have a whole bunch of challenges thrown at you almost daily, then there isn't a better better place to be.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Yeah, fantastic. Definitely. I I couldn't agree more, John. I think it's an exciting time we are in the profession. Uh certainly uh for us as accountants, because the days of um number crunching and um, you know, bulk down in the inexpensive and all of that stuff, you know, the manual work is actually being taken over by the AI. So therefore, we have more time now uh to be able to focus on that strategic level. Absolutely uh where you can actually make more of an impact for the business owners, hopefully, yeah, giving them the right information, the right advice to help them steer them to the right direction to make the right decisions. So, yeah, I agree, is is is is is um is super exciting in the moment.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

And I sorry, I was just gonna say, I think also like we sort of see that firms and businesses are increasingly stratified as well, right, across this breadth of tech, not just technology adoption, but kind of you know, business maturity, your operational maturity, the way that they go to market with their customers and their clients and stuff. And so that in itself presents a huge you know opportunity for people to kind of get in there and sort of start making a change. You know, I think the ability for you know someone even at a very junior level in a in a in an organization, whether it's a practice or a business, to make an impact and make a significant change is like it's like unbounded almost. Absolutely, because you could come in and suddenly say, Hey, I've used, I don't know, ChatGPT or Claude or Copilot to do this and suddenly like accelerated the way that the business operates.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Um that's that's super right, John. Super right, super right. Um, don't mean to it right.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

It's all good.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Uh but just to give an example about the um Gineo, like we sent recently um we've read um AI survey or tech survey, I would say, to a client that's in the construction sector. He's a gineo role, but we he had to go to the client's um site, uh, and then of course, through the site, we say you just need you go to go to the client and and uh make sure that you study all their processes, come back, and then the light goes in, come back. By the time he comes back to the office, within a couple of hours, he was able to reinvent, really, to be honest, how the client works in terms of their processes and systems and design brand new systems. And up till today, like and this happens about a couple of weeks ago, the client still couldn't believe it that they were working in the old at the speed at which it is done, and it's a very junior level. That part maybe a few years' time ago would have been still in a speci on uh on a spreadsheet, you know, all day. Yeah. So that tells you where the sector is moving. Even very, very junior roles are having that, you know, strategic opportunity to be able to make them massive, massive change for a business. Definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

And I think our AAT qualifications are still teaching the basics because they need to know it, they need to understand what's happening. But whilst we're teaching them how to do a bank reconciliation, our juniors don't have to do that anymore because they're being done, which it gives them the opportunity to then go and, as you said, have an impact now. They know what's happening, errors are being picked up and things like that. But actually, their time then can be spent supporting clients, having more of an impact, and also seeing things differently of how they can make improvements and and put forward recommendations.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Interesting that, Zoe, that you mentioned basics because that's key still.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

And regarding all these AI, if your basic is not right, you are in trouble.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

You have to make sure that you focus, especially as a student, for instance, focus on the basics.

SPEAKER_03 19:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Get the basics right, and then you AI will be your best friend. But if you get the basics wrong, it can drive you through the wrong way or you know, in a in a rubbit hole. Uh, you're right. You have to understand. Yeah, you have to understand it.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

So therefore, and and the great thing about AAT is, in my mind, anyway, and in my uh opinion, humble opinion, AAT, uh no one does the basic better than AAT.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

And I completely agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah, it doesn't take the fundamentals you can finger on an AAT podcast. That's right. That's right. But it's true. Yes, yeah. Practical basics, no one knows it better than AAT.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

So I'm gonna throw a challenge down to that. Um you know, I I don't disagree with the sentiment in terms of like, you know, um how AAT, you know, gets people up to speed with the basics and how they kind of disseminate that. You know, I I went through AAT before becoming a chartered accountant, absolutely loved it, rumped through the exams, thought it was great. But I do wonder, you know, and and this is this is purely a hypothetical to throw out there at the moment. You know, I do wonder if maybe we'll start to see some kind of segregation in the marketplace in terms of, you know, do we fundamentally need to understand some of the basics of things like double entry, how to do a bank reconciliation, how to maybe run an accounts receivable, accounts payable ledger and stuff like that, just simply because, you know, technology, not just AI, but broader technology has started to replace that in a completely different way. And, you know, the the analogy that I tend to use in this is that, you know, as drivers of a car, and I think we're all drivers, you know, here, you know, we we probably all learn on different types of car, you know, some of them might have had a manual choke, some of them might have had a you know, manual gearbox and a whole bunch of other things. You know, a lot of that technology now for people who've got kids like me, you know, my daughter's 15, she'll probably start to learn to drive in a couple of years. High likelihood is that she's going to drive an electric car. She's probably going to learn in an electric car, which means no gearbox, no, no engine to worry about. Um, you know, no certainly no choke and none of the other manual bits and pieces that we used to have. You know, she's never seen a window uh a window that winds down like I used to. Um but but the fundamental core skills of getting her from A to B in a safe manner are exactly the same skills that I learned, you know, more or less. And again, the training. Has changed a little bit over time. But the difference between her and I learning is that, you know, when I learn, you also learn how to change the oil in a car. You learn how to change the windscreen washer. You learn how to do a bunch of other things which are which are no longer relevant or potentially no longer relevant as we continue to progress. And, you know, if my car breaks down, I don't know how to fix it. But I go to a garage and someone does know how the engine works and how the electronics work and all those bits and pieces. And so I do wonder if maybe we'll start to see this kind of segregation in the marketplace where, you know, the debits and credits and the bank reconciliations aren't the domain of every accountant in the in the world, but they're they're a domain of a very specialist sort of subsection of that where they do that. And if you want a kind of a real practical example of it, you know, go to the big four and ask anyone in an audit department how to do a bank rec or how to do debits and credits or how to put a set of financial statements together. They fundamentally don't know that because they've never needed to know that. But are they exceptional at auditing and do they really fundamentally understand what a set of financial statements should look like and whether they're a compliance and everything else completely? And they're probably, you know, they're on a different level when it comes to auditing, certainly to me and probably many others. Um, but I'm a generalist and I was always a bit a generalist. And so we need to kind of like figure out, you know, where is the future going to go for the profession and what does that mean, not just for AAT, but for the institutes and ACCN and a whole bunch of others and and and the broader kind of faculty of people's peoples and members in these organizations.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

I think we've definitely seen a uh how our qualification has evolved. So, as well as still making sure they've got the basics so they understand what's going on, there's been an awful lot built into our qualification to be able to help them to look more at data analytics, to be helping help them to understand the benefits of automation and how AI works. And so I definitely think that within the qualification, the focus of what's required is much more about helping them with those higher level professional judgments that they have to make, the recommendations. And we've really developed also within the qualification the communication skills, you know, and that's become more of a focus of the thread that goes within her qualification because it's not just about number crunching anymore, it's about being able to demonstrate and communicate and to be able to put forward those recommendations and have much more of a consultative role, I think is what our qualifications are now helping our trainees to be able to do.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

I don't think so. And I I think probably, you know, because uh we're we're a similar age and probably had similar similar sort of training experiences and stuff, you know. I think one of the one of the bits that training does give you, you know, is it kind of gives you that spidey sense when something's not quite right, you know, and kind of like you know, you you can suddenly go, oh you know, it's the thing not not quite right. That's right. Whatever it is, I don't quite know what it is, can't quite put my finger on it. But if you can't see it, you can look at it, you know that it's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Knowing that's something wrong with my car. What if you don't actually realize that something's wrong with your car? There's a noise coming in, but you just keep driving. You are you need to know. I was just thinking him back to that, just joking jump back to the analogy in the minute. If you don't know that your car is wrong, you might just keep driving the car.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

Yeah, and then it all falls apart a little further down the lane.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

I would probably have seen that already with organizations where they just keep carrying on with their accounts, they don't really know what's going on, but you know, something doesn't agree, and then you get hold of it and you're like, oh, those like opening balances look a bit funky, or there's something weird going on. That's right. And and I think that's why you know that's what I'm saying is like we you even even outside of the profession, if you're a business owner running your own set of accounts, you know, they're doing the bookkeeping, they're doing elements of accounting. They may never have trained or learned some of that stuff, but they've kind of got there through you know just their own sheer force of will, if you like. Um, but that that is you know it's true. And I look, I'm happy to be challenged for my terrible analogy.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

I agree with you uh on on to a lot of things that you say about you know how the sector is changing and uh the the institution like the AT need to pivot and all of that stuff. I do agree with you. And I think uh obviously as as a junior or as a student, for you to be able to pass your exams, you need to be able to understand and and and be able to you know answer those questions in the in the exam room. So so hence you cannot pass if you don't understand the basics. So hopefully that will be covered while they are studying still. But I do uh agree with a lot of things that you say in terms of where the sector is moving. As an auditor, as you're right, they probably wouldn't need to understand how double entry works. But they would have had to understand it before they actually become an auditor. So hopefully, whilst they are doing the auditing process, they can spot things quickly because they have to do the light work at the beginning of their career as a student.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

So we've established that critical thinking is going to be really important. For our students, how are they able to demonstrate those critical thinking skills, do you think, when they are applying for jobs or in an interview setting? What kind of tips do you think that you could give to help them to demonstrate to their future employers that they do have critical thinking skills?

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Uh take your employers, don't just keep saying to your employer, I'm a critical thinker. Nope. You have to take them through the thinking, through, through your thinking process. And as an example, so say you are a junior who's never working as an accounting sector, but you have to probably uh uh volunteer as an AAT branch, for instance, as a treasurer. Yes, you've handled finances, which is why I'm saying come to the branches because there are things that are the roles that you can actually uh use uh to your advantage. You you've you you've given you the finances and you could demonstrate to a potential employer that actually have handled the finance of a of a of a club or a branch, and I was able to make sure that I did the budget, uh making sure that the club don't run out of funds, all of those stuff, and explain the process how you set your budget all the way to making sure that you you you you you deliver those projects against your actuals. And um again, another example is for instance, you you're working in a in a coffee shop, for instance. It's nothing to do with accounting, but it's a busy coffee shop, for instance, and you are very, very busy dealing with customers. Again, through your interview process with a potential employer, you could explain how you have to deal with challenging situations at a busy time in a coffee shop, for instance, how you navigate and uh what what did you what changes you made during the busy times to adjust, dealing with people, speaking to people, communicating with people, all of those skills are very, very important to to potential employers, I think.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

Yeah, and I think that's that's really great. There's probably a lot of our listeners that will be able to have some examples that they can draw from similar to that that they could then bring out when they're in that interview setting.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

So yeah, it doesn't just have to be uh uh intensive in an accountancy practice. No, you can walk any work as a call which is not accountancy relevant, but still going to be relevant to your future uh accountancy role.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yeah, yeah. And I actually think you know, having some other kind of business experience, business skills, particularly if you want to, even if you want to move into a practice role or move into a business role, it really, really helps. You know, it really actually really helps to fundamentally understand, you know, what the machinations of an organization look like, you know, and how to you know, if you're working, I don't know, working in a cafe, like you said, you know, like you know, what happens at the end of the day when you've got to you know close up the till and cash up and do all of that kind of stuff, and you'll you'll actually see how an organization operates and get a real hands-on view of that. And you and you you you probably won't be able to kind of reflect back on that until you've gone maybe a couple of years into your studies and figure out how does this all play out in terms of you know going back to the double entry skills and the the you know the cash, you know, the bank reconciliation skills. But that that's one of those things where that reflective experience is really good. I mean, going back to that point about critical thinking, you know, Zoe, I think you for me, you know, and you could you could make yourself a bit of a pain in the backside but doing this, but really it's about challenge, challenging, challenging everything. You know, uh you know, we talked about the risks of using AI before and just making assumptions that what you're getting is is reliable and it's it's accurate and everything else. That's that's one of the key things that you can demonstrate, you know, um, you know, is to sort of say, look, hey, I got this response back. And you know, what I also did is I went off and I verified that the references to tax case law, the references to an accounting um policy or whatever were were reliable and accurate. Um, you know, in terms of demonstrating that in interview, I actually think it's quite difficult to do that. But the the way that you probably articulate that is again, it goes back to elements of like curiosity, it goes back to talking about your experience and talking about you know how you would overcome a challenge. Um, you know, and and I think the the most important thing about critical thinking is it doesn't mean you have to be always be right. Yeah, you can challenge someone and get pushback. Yeah, we've had it on the already on the pod, right? You can challenge someone and sort of say, Well, this is my thinking. Yeah, what's your thinking? You know, and it goes back to that kind of a collaborative like approach to get to, you know, get to a point where, you know, and it goes back to the judgment thing as well. It's like, you know, how do we get to a point where everyone kind of agrees in principle on this, you know, and get to at least get to consensus, if not full agreement. Yeah, I think that's really important. Absolutely, 100%. And so articulating that in an interview is very difficult, but I think um you, if you're given the opportunity in terms of the questioning to sort of show how your thinking would be would approach a challenge, that's the best way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

I think that's that's a very good point, John. Uh you are right. But how I would do it, for instance, in the coffee shop scenario, I would say, for instance, I could say, well, I work in a very, very, very busy coffee shop, but I realize that probably uh every Saturday of the week there's a certain product, usually we run out of stock. So what I did was to just to do the analysis and thinking that we have to have more of that stock on a Saturday because every Saturday I've realized during the last uh couple of months or whatever, we've always run out of that type of product. So hence you you make sure that you've done enough um ordering to make sure that when a busy period comes in, that stock you have run out. So you you could explain that you've used your judgment and your analytical skills to be able to know that whilst you are located as a barrister, customers becoming asking you for a particular product, specific time of the week, you are running out, then you explain on what you've done to making sure that doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Good example, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

There you go.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

So yeah, nice example. I like it. Now, just going back to a point you made earlier, Ali, about the fact that students going to a branch, that you know, being involved in branch events, that can really help. Are there any other sort of events, activities, things that students can be doing outside of the classroom and the learning that they're doing there or the work experience that they have that can help them stand out to employers when they're trying to go for their first accountancy role?

SPEAKER_01 32:51

I I would say um even if you volunteer, for instance, it doesn't have to be a club, volunteer in a in any other role. As long as it's even if a charity, because that shows that you you you have some sort of human type to to yourself, like um say a charity that's close to your heart. Uh you are studying as a student, you you've definitely, definitely have some uh capacity to be able to give back. Yes. Uh to and use your skills that you've learned to be able to help a charity of your of your choosing that you think that is you are interested in.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Um and actually that worked for me. So I volunteered at my daughter's nursery uh as a treasurer.

SPEAKER_03 33:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Uh and it was by doing the work, the volunteer work that I was and taking on that role as a as a treasurer meant that then I was I I read a Frank Woods book and I taught myself double-interous bookkeeping and and I and I did that. But then actually taking the uh end-of-year accounts into uh an accountancy firm, that's where I got then a job. So, you know, volunteering helps. It works. It's a good thing to be able to do for employers to see that.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

I I think I think the other thing that you know firms are looking for is you know, they're looking for you know an element of personality and and you know, I think firms, in terms of the way uh practices in particular change the way they recruit. You know, in the past it always used to be like, are you good at maths? You know, are you maybe good at your your English and and you know, do you want to earn a lot of money? Are you good at maths? Are you academic? It was always very focused on that. And I think the world has moved on a lot. And so, you know, certainly when I was recruiting, you know, in in practice roles historically, you know, yes, academic rigor or academic qualifications are important because they're a bit of an indicator of intelligence, let's say, in inverted commerce. But but also what we're looking for is personality. So, you know, having a great covering letter as long as well as a CV is really helpful. Actually, following instructions, you know, I I see you lots of firms, you know, and people that I know that run practices who said, Oh, I put this role out and I said I wanted a covering letter or I wanted someone to record a 30-second video and I just got a CV through the door. Well, if if you can't follow simple instructions, I'm afraid you're never going to get an opportunity. And you know, and it's a it's a challenging time at the moment. I know that I think in the latest stats where there's like a million 18 to 24-year-olds unemployed at the moment. And, you know, my own personal experience, when I was studying AAT, because I started out at level two and then I tried to apply for a training role. You know, I applied to probably 400 accounting practices to try and get a training role. And I got two responses. One was a no and one was come for an interview. You know, 398 firms just didn't have another courtesy to reply. Um, and and that's resilience.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

It taught you resilience. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

And it and it's really frustrating. Um, you know, and I had no idea if the the one response was going to be successful, you know, in terms of going for the interview. Uh, but I think if you can demonstrate, you know, like you say, resilience, but also demonstrate some element of personality and a willingness to do other things, you know, like you, because again, it goes back to kind of like what are the traits that we're looking for now in a modern-day account? And you know, we talked about some of them in terms of curiosity, professional judgment, et cetera, et cetera. But also we're looking for, you know, we're almost looking for people to be chameleons, right? You know, we deal with lots of different organization types, lots of different personality types, and you've got to be able to fit in and you've got to be able to associate with people. So if you've got, you know, if you've done like played for a sports team or you've done something to a very high level, that makes you stand out. It gives you something to talk about, it gives you something to engage with people around.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Team player. You you you play for a sports team that shows that you are a team player. High performing, high performing, good at collaboration, yeah, taking on instructions. Absolutely. It doesn't necessarily have to be the academic side of things, passing exams, but the the the personals, interpersonal skills are just as relevant as well. So I I agree completely.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

And since we're talking about technology, right, we're talking about AI, I think being able to demonstrate that you've got some you know familiarity with some of these things, you know, whether you know whether whether it's almost as you know blatant as saying, hey, you know, I used I used you know AI to help me write my covering letter, but I've actually like you know taken the judgment and and reviewed it before I just sent it out, and it's not a load of nonsense. You know, just being able to sort of talk about some of those things is is really useful. I mean, the other thing as well, you know, we we talked about CPD earlier, you know, the the profession is always demanding some kind of like continual development and training. And again, going back to the curiosity point, if if you've maybe a student that's experimented with Claude, let's say, and you know, vibe coded an app or done something silly like that, it doesn't have to be anything functional, you know, in terms of you know accounting related, but if it just again shows that you've got that willingness to kind of take a risk and experiment and do something different.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

So that's gonna be relevant in an interview. Like if you can build an agent, that's where the sector is moving. Uh, in in the accountant space, especially in practice, if you are uh tech savvy in that respect that way you can build a build an agent, for instance.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

So we're gonna move on to our quick fire round, uh, myth or reality. I just want, I'm gonna say a statement, and I'd like to hear myth or reality. Probably it's gonna split the room, but let's see. So uh AI is going to make human skills less important in the workplace. Myth or reality?

unknown 38:04

Myth.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Reality.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

Oh, I knew I'd split the room. I knew it split the room, but we we've heard your views, so we're gonna move on. So uh AI will eliminate more jobs in accountancy than it's going to create. Myth or reality. Good. I'm pleased we both agree on that. That's a good one. That's a good one. So many opportunities are gonna be out there. So many, so many. It's about the way that we are done.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

So many opportunities and give people to grow as well into business, understanding business at a deeper level, right? Yes, making strategic decisions. That's what AI is gonna give us the freedom to do.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Make those strategic decisions. Absolutely. Uh last one then, the future of work is humans and AI collaborating, not competing. Myth or reality?

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Reality, in my view.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

That's you're gonna say we're gonna be competing and fighting against AI.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

I mean, I think it goes back to the other question, right? Which was you know, is there a future for accountants in this world? Yes, absolutely there is. But I do uh you know, I genuinely think you know, AI is already starting to replace specific tasks. And technology broadly has start is has already already replaced specific tasks in the accounting, you know, um, you know, sort of space. Uh, you know, you think about accounts payable clerks, right? Did you ever see an accounting role or a job role for an accounts payable clerk anymore? I mean, it it's it's like a unicorn, you don't see them very often anymore because it has been replaced by technology.

SPEAKER_03 39:37

Yeah, but they're doing more exciting stuff in the market.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Exactly. And that's the thing. But that particular role has disappeared, but that particular person who might have been doing that role is now doing something else potentially.

SPEAKER_03 39:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

There is a the biggest challenge, I think, particularly in accounting practice, probably less so in business, is we have a bunch of firms that are really good at delivering compliance. And the likelihood that in the future, for many, many firms, compliance is going to become even more automated as a consequence of AI. And that's also probably going to likely have an impact on price. So the margins for practices is going to start to fall. So the challenge for practices is to figure out like, how do I, how do I get ahead of that? How do I anticipate that? How do I pivot? How do I train my staff to do the other stuff that we've been talking about? And and also potentially how how do I make those difficult choices if maybe some of those staff aren't going to be capable of changing into those new roles and stuff. I think that's the big challenge. So I'm not I'm not a pessimist about the accounting segment per se as a consequence of AI, but I do think that over the next few years we're going to see AI challenging particular roles and particular jobs and certainly tasks that we kind of just take as bread and butter. But what we'll start to see is a is a pivot away from that. But it's going to be fascinating to see how the broader your uh your accounting industry you know moves to that and and and whether you know the timelines is the great unknown of this. We can say it's all gonna disappear in two years, yeah, or it could be 10 years, like we we just fundamentally don't know.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I I I do believe though, um perhaps maybe I I was sorry to say, but yeah, it's gonna be good for both, uh I think in in terms of how we work, right? I think it's a collaborative effort rather than us against AI, in my view, because I think AI are tools and for it's for for us accountants, human accountants to use those tools to be able to actually make things even better. Yes. Yeah, at the at a strategic level.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Uh because uh as I as we said earlier, there are certain uh traits that AI don't have that humans have, and that's our that's our advantage as well.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

Coming back to your lovely trainee that went out and made a difference, that impact that they had. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

That's that's right. That impact that they have. We could go and see how people are doing this, and you know, unless you have again Elon Musk, who knows, maybe you might design one other one day. But but now at least I couldn't go to a factory and then see how things are working and then be able to design something to help them, you know, even get even better.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

So in that respect, I think those roles, the guinea roles, you are right. Some of those roles will go, but the guineos will actually just move to a different role to actually make it. But it's incumbent on us to do that, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 42:26

I think that's the thing. It's incumbent on accounting business leaders to make sure that change happens and not to kind of just put your head in the sand and pretend nothing's going on. Because otherwise, you know, that's a risk. Absolutely. Isn't it a great place to be as well? You know, we're talking about recruitment before. Isn't it a great place to be if you can sort of say, look, we're a real modern practice or a modern business, trying to take advantage of this, you know, this AI world. We might not get everything right, but what we're at least trying to do is like experiment and to move forward and to keep pace with the change that's happening around us. And you know, hopefully then deliver that out in terms of like good quality client service.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Indeed. Yeah, great. So thinking back to when you did your exams and you were studying, we always like to leave our almost hundreds of years ago. We always like to leave our students with um uh a practical study tip for them to be able to take away. So if you were able to give an AAT top tip to our students, what would your top tip be?

SPEAKER_01 43:28

I go um uh for me as a student, I would say focus on the studies, of course, to pass your exams, but not don't just stop there as well. Because studying just to pass your exam, memorizing stuff and whatnot will take you to a certain level. You will pass your exam most likely, but it wouldn't progress your career to the long in the long term. So focus, you know, put your focus on understanding what you are studying.

unknown 43:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

Not just answer the questions, but understanding why.

SPEAKER_01 43:59

The why. We're going back to the why, so we, you know, you have to understand what you are doing because without that, just memorizing stuff without understanding it, you will get stuck in the long term. So you have to make sure that you dig deeper. Even if you if you sometimes we might have a failure and think you're doing your exams and you unfortunately fail, don't see it as a failure. See it as your your perfect opportunity to actually even get to understand the subject matter more. Yes, in my view. So so that's that's that's the number one advice I would give, right? To just say try to understand your subject at a deeper level, because that's gonna see you in the long term in your career.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

Perfect. Thank you, Ellie. That's great. John, from you?

SPEAKER_00 44:40

I mean, for me, it's all about exam practice. You know, um you the the the the the studies studies I absolutely agree. You you need to understand the the topic. But I think you the real pressure point is when you get to sit those exams. And you know, for me personally, I think ideally you want to try and pass those first time, you know, because you know, it saves you personal time, it saves you having to go back through the cost and expense of doing it all and and all it all over again and things. But but also you you can learn so much actually from doing past papers in terms of exam technique, but also the knowledge, what what the expectations are and things like that. And so um, you know, when I was when I was studying like a million years ago, you know, um, you know, I would probably start six weeks out from the exam, and I would pretty much every weekend I'd be sitting like a paper on a Saturday and then doing the same on a Sunday. Yeah, and really that was probably the you were talking about my lack of diligence. That was my only diligence ever when I studied. Yeah. And I did that all the way through AAT and when I did the ACA as well.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

Yeah, I think I think you're right. Sorry, Joey, you go, you go, ladies.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

I was just gonna say, no, I I agree with you that actually that early preparation for exams is really important, isn't it? To make sure that you know all of the syllabus, you've gone through it all, you've practiced, you're familiar and comfortable with it. Because it's you have to have that knowledge, you have to have the why. You also need good exam technique. And leaving it till the very last minute isn't the right way to prepare.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

Practice exam, fast papers. Fast papers.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

Lovely. Okay. Well, thank you ever so much for your time. It's been wonderful to have you as guests on Balancing Ambition. Uh, it's been great to be able to have these conversations, uh, you know, and to be able to discuss it and talk about it and have different points of view. I think that's important to have. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences, your future ambitions, and and your advice. So, uh, and thank you to our listeners too for joining us today.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

Thank you so much for having us. Yeah, it's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

Thank you so much.

unknown 46:37

Thank you.