Navigating the Uncomfortable Truths of Leadership

The central theme of our discussion revolves around the critical importance of psychological safety in leadership and how it is often misconceived as mere agreeableness. We delve into the uncomfortable yet essential truths that underpin effective leadership, integrity, and genuine growth. As we engage with our esteemed guest, Myleena Sutton, we explore the narratives that leaders construct, which can inadvertently stifle innovation and honest communication within their teams. Furthermore, we examine the necessity of personal fidelity—aligning one’s values with actions—as a cornerstone of sustainable success. Our conversation aims to illuminate the often subtle dynamics of trust, conflict, and self-awareness that profoundly impact organizational environments.

The discourse presented in this episode meticulously dissects the intricate dynamics of leadership, particularly emphasizing the often-overlooked facets of psychological safety and personal accountability. Our dialogue commences with the profound assertion that leaders frequently harbor the misconception that they cultivate environments conducive to open communication and innovation. However, such perceptions often dissipate when team members cease to express their thoughts candidly, leading to a gradual decline in creativity and an increase in latent tensions. This episode serves as a clarion call for leaders to reevaluate the narratives they propagate and the values they embody, as these elements significantly influence organizational culture and progress. Maireena Sutton, our esteemed guest, elucidates the critical importance of confronting uncomfortable truths in leadership. She posits that real growth is not merely a product of strategic planning or tool utilization but is fundamentally hindered by the stories we tell ourselves and the values we inconsistently uphold. Through her extensive experience as a leadership consultant, Sutton advocates for a deeper understanding of how leaders can inadvertently undermine trust and psychological safety within their teams. She emphasizes that psychological safety transcends mere agreeableness; it necessitates a consistent and predictable environment where individuals feel empowered to express dissenting opinions without fear of retribution. Thus, the episode embarks on an exploration of the vital role that self-awareness and personal fidelity play in fostering a culture of accountability and trust. In the latter segments of our conversation, the discussion pivots towards the intricate relationship between personal values and leadership effectiveness. Sutton asserts that alignment between one’s professed values and actual behaviors is paramount in cultivating trust within teams. She provides insightful anecdotes that illustrate the detrimental effects of inconsistency in leadership behaviors, urging listeners to reflect on their own practices. The episode culminates in a poignant reminder that true leadership demands the courage to engage in difficult conversations and the commitment to uphold one’s values consistently, even amidst discomfort. This rich dialogue not only challenges prevailing leadership paradigms but also equips listeners with practical strategies to enhance their leadership practice and, consequently, their organizational environments.

Takeaways:

• Leaders often mistakenly believe they foster safe environments until honest communication ceases, stalling innovation.
• Progress is frequently hindered not by strategies or tools, but by the narratives we construct around ourselves.
• The cultivation of psychological safety is fundamentally the responsibility of leaders, not a shared burden with employees.
• Leaders must recognize that predictability in behavior is essential for creating an atmosphere of psychological safety.
• To facilitate genuine progress, leaders should confront uncomfortable truths about their own behaviors and their impact on team dynamics.
• Establishing personal fidelity to one's values is crucial for sustainable leadership and fostering trust within teams.

Links referenced in this episode:

• mylenasutton.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

🎙️ Want to Be a Guest on Healthy Mind, Healthy Life?

Send me a direct message on PodMatch.

👉 DM Me Here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/avik

🌱 About Healthy Mind By Avik™️

Healthy Mind By Avik™️ Global Mental Wellness Podcast Network - focused, credible, no more identity clutter.

👉 Subscribe and be part of this healing journey.

Refer a Guest

Know someone who would be a great fit for one of our podcast shows? Email us at services@podhealth.club with the subject line “Refer a Guest.” Requests without this subject line cannot be catered to.

Support Our Podcast: Support this Podcast

📬 Contact & Links

Brand: Healthy Mind By Avik™️

Contact Us

Based in: India & USA

🎧 All Podcast Shows

🤝 Be a Guest

📩 Newsletter Substack

👉 Join the LinkedIn Community

📌 Disclaimer - This episode is produced for educational and informational purposes only. All views expressed by the guest are their personal opinions alone and do not represent the views of the host or Healthy Mind by Avik™. The Network does not verify, endorse, or assume responsibility for any guest statements. Nothing in this episode constitutes medical, legal, financial, or professional advice, please consult a qualified professional before making any decisions. Listeners are encouraged to engage critically and independently with all content do not consume blindly. Use this content as a starting point for your own reflection and research, not as a substitute for professional guidance. Third-party content is referenced under fair use for informational purposes only. Guest speakers are solely responsible for their own statements.

If you have concerns about any content, please contact us here

By listening, you acknowledge and accept this disclaimer in full. Read detailed disclaimer here.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Most leaders believe that they are creating safe and healthy environments. Until people stop speaking honestly, innovation slows and tension quietly feeds the room. So the question comes is dear listeners, like, what if progress is not about being blocked by the strategy or the tools, but by the stories that we tell ourselves and the values that we fail to leave consistently.

The Uncomfortable Truths of Leadership

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Today, dear listeners, we are stepping into an uncomfortable but very essential truths behind the leadership, integrity, and the real growth. So hey dear listeners, welcome back to another powerful episode of Mind Meets Machine, where we explore how human behavior, yes, you heard that correct, how human behavior, leadership, and the modern systems intersect, especially when, or I would say, where things quietly break down. And today I'm joined by a lovely guest. Please welcome Mayrena Switan. So welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to be here on the show and to speak with your audience.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

That's really great. I'm really happy that you joined us today. And dear listeners, before we delve deep into our discussion today, I'll quickly love to introduce you with Myrena. So Mylena is the leadership consultant, growth coach, and the storyteller. Often she's known as the leadership fanatic. So she helps leaders and individuals confront the hard conversations that they have been avoiding, like working at the intersection of accountability, psychological safety, and the human behavior. So she is also the creator of the Leadership Drives, which is a podcast which is born from her solo road trips across 24 states to uncover the personal stories behind how people lead. And in this conversation, dear listeners, we will explore how leaders unintentionally, yes, unintentionally shape the trust. Why conflict is really, really about the surface issue, and why personal fidelity may be the missing indic ingredient in both happiness and the sustainable success. So I'll not have must have a time. Let's get started. Welcome to the show again, my lena.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Indeed. Thank you so much. I'm looking forward to our conversation. I think this is gonna be fun.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Yeah, exactly, definitely. And just to just to uh kind of break the ice, before we get into the main discussion, uh the behaviors, frameworks. I have something, some, some uh curiosity, right? So I'm very curious about what first showed you that real progress usually stalls, not because the people don't know what to do, but because they are avoiding something deeper.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Well, first let me say this. I tend to use as a uh my kind of tagline, all leadership is personal.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

And the reason I use that is because I think who we are at work is also who we are at home. The only difference is we're concerned about different consequences in the different spaces. So to answer your question, there were a couple of things that made me go, you know what? What's on the surface is not really the issue. So personally, if I can just be a bit personal. So I grew up with my grandparents. My grandmother passed away, and my mother and I have a, I'm gonna say it just kind of a rocky relationship sometimes. And one day we started a conversation about something and we got into an argument. I think I had a meltdown. And when I say a meltdown, I got so mad and I started just kind of spouting off. At one point, I was just yelling. I don't even know what I was yelling about at one point. And what we were talking about really wasn't the essence of what I was angry about. And what started the actual explosion is that she was talking about issue A. And my thought was whatever issue A is, I don't really care about that. Issue B is what's really bugging me, but I can't seem to be heard when I talk about issue B. You don't understand how important issue B is to me. You want to ignore it and focus on issue A. And until I can be addressed, I don't care about A. And I don't want to pretend like I care about A. But every time we talk, you bring up issue A. And I think no matter what setting we're in, all too often the thing that's really important to us is somehow being threatened or neglected. And what we do is, people, frankly, until that thing is going to be treated the way we think it should be, accorded the kind of respect we think it should have, we don't fully engage and therefore we can't really deal with what's really going on. That's just, again, whether we're at home or at work, that is the situation that we're often confronting.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Exactly. I totally, totally agree. And uh to to uh also get into the discussion is like that distinction matters so much because why I'm saying this, like a lot of leaders, right? A lot of leaders believe that the psychological safety is only about being nice, agreeable, or avoidabing kind of avoiding the discomfort also. Here's what you think. I mean, what's the most common misunderstanding that you see around how leaders actually create or quietly destroy the psychological safety?

Understanding Psychological Safety in Leadership

SPEAKER_00 5:46

I think first and foremost, one of the things that leaders perhaps should accept is that it is their job to create the safety. It is not necessarily something that you do mutually or jointly with the employees. It is your job because of the power construct. You can't expect somebody who reports to you or who is lower than you within the organizational hierarchy to take that responsibility or to take the lead for safety. It is up to you to recognize that it needs to be created because you set the parameters, you determine how it's going to unfold. So the first thing is just simply recognizing that it matters. The second thing, beyond realizing that the psychological safety component matters, is making sure that we create a consistent, predictable environment for people. If I can talk to you today about a problem and you respond one way, and then tomorrow your behavior is completely different. And if there's a disconnect between what you said and your body language, I don't get the safety that I need to have the assurance to take initiative, to express uh concern or even disagreement. So often where leaders, I think, sometimes go awry is first not realizing that psychological safety matters and it is up to them, and then looking at how predictability is key to having psychological safety. It's not about being nice, it's about knowing what to expect so you can make the decisions that you need to make about how you're gonna behave in a particular context or whether you even want to be in that organization. It is predictability that matters.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Very

Understanding Psychological Safety in Leadership

SPEAKER_01 7:29

true. And that safety is not about the softness part, it's the consistency because like people don't need leaders to be perfect, but they need them to be predictable in their values, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:43

As a matter of fact, I shared with someone the other day. She was asked whether or not she should give notice on her job. She was preparing to quit. And this is an example of how important predictability is. Um, and it's like, why are we having this conversation? What's going on with you that you are even asking about this? And she said, Well, I want to give notice because I've been taught that that is what it means to be professional. But every time someone gives notice here, they get fired on the day that they give notice. With all due respect, to make that environment safe, why not simply tell your people that? Look, when you give notice, we generally will do what we have to do, we'll pay you out of your notice period, and we cut ties that day. But a lot of times we don't give people that predictability. And in turn, it destroys the culture because people will figure out what they need to figure out.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Correct. Exactly. So um, I mean, what safety erodes? Like it often happens subtly, right? By like what kind of blind spots or the internal contradictions do leaders tend to miss about their own behavior? What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 8:51

In terms of the things that leaders miss about their own behavior, I don't know if you ever watched Jurassic Park. Yeah. There's this one dinosaur type called the Velociraptors, and they're constantly watching and observing. Employees are like Velociraptors, they're always studying the people that they work with. And I think first and foremost, the leader has to recognize that the employees are watching them to, again, see what they do consistently. Consistently, it consistency is key. Oftentimes leaders don't realize when they frankly treat employees differently. They don't realize sometimes when there are disconnects between what they value in the sense of I can tell what's important to her because she will follow up. She will ask questions, I can tell what's not important because she will say okay, but there will be no resources put behind it. There'll never be any time to do it. I can tell if it matters who she assigns to work on the project or he doesn't give the flexibility to get it done. So I would say with leaders, that sense of self-awareness is key. As a matter of fact, if you look at what we look at as the cornerstones of emotional intelligence, self-awareness comes first, right behind self-control. And a lot of leaders simply don't do that work. To give you an example, last few weeks ago, I did an engagement with a team that is stuck in recurring conflict. And every member on that team talked about how the leader has a friend on the team, and this is every team member. And they said, look, all of us are held to this one particular standard, except this one person. When I talked to the leader about it, the leader didn't see that at all. And she thought, these people are simply, in many ways, maybe making this up. They're misunderstanding this. But what you got to realize, if they perceive it that way, then it is up to you to figure out as a leader how do you change that perception? Because part of what you're dealing with is reality. And what you also have to realize, you are never just one of the people on the team. You always have that power construct that you have to control for. So looking at your behavior, looking at how people perceive things, and then thinking about how power impacts their willingness to speak openly and honestly, and how that power will affect what they see when they're observing you.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

And I mean, what stands out is how kind of internal misalignment quietly leaks outward. So teams often feel kind of the disconnect, right? They're long before leaders are willing to name it.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Is it is it correct, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Absolutely. The team members they will see it, and what happens, they will start to look for affirmation amongst themselves. You know, have you noticed that he does this? Do you notice that he or she or they do that? Because they're looking for someone to say, no, you're not crazy. Even if there's an alternative explanation, people are always scanning the environment for what do things mean so that they can adjust their behavior accordingly. And as a leader, you have to just be keenly aware that that scrutiny is always there. And because you hold the power, being attuned to it is your job. You have to do it. Even if you think it's a time-consuming, energy consuming, sure, you have to do it because it shows up in people's willingness to engage and to participate, and not only how they treat one another, but how they manage their relationships with you.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

That's very important, yeah. And also, like uh you teach the idea of personal fidelity, like living your values consistently. So I'm also curious about it, like how that shows up practically. Like, what does alignment actually look like in the daily decisions and not just the kind of intentions?

SPEAKER_00 12:51

First and foremost, you have to be clear about what those values are. And I would even go so far as to say you might want to get make a practice of having two to three core values. If you have a laundry list of values, it's kind of hard to live by a really long list of things. But if you choose the two to three guiding principles that you're going to build your team by, build your work ethic by, looking at every aspect of how you lead to figure out how it is that you might be contradicting what it is that you say is important to you. So, to give you an example, one of the things that is really important to me, I believe in addressing conflict and I like to do it quickly because I don't necessarily like when things fester because I know what I'm like when I feel as if there's been a problem that's looming for a really long time and how it becomes easier to simply kind of change my orientation in terms of how our behavior behaves to avoid dealing with it. So even if it makes me really uncomfortable, I am going to reach out to have a conversation to let you know this is something I need to talk about. As a matter of fact, because I'm not an employee because I'm a consultant, there was a client uh where their main employee that I had to interface with, I just noticed that her behavior toward me sometimes seemed a little, for lack of a better way, I'm just gonna say funky. I'm like, I don't know what her problem is, but I don't know what it is that I've done. So after a while, I just noticed consistently this behavior is happening. I I wouldn't say confronted her because I don't like the connotation of that word. But what I decided to do one day, I went to deliver a workshop because it was an organization where I was facilitating workshops for them. I know she got to the office early because I pay attention too. So I'm like, look, let me get here so that no one else is around because I want to think about what would make it safe for her to be human in her response rather than feeling like she needs to defend herself. And so I go in and I'm like, hey, Laura, these are the challenges or the issues, the things that I've seen in terms of how we interact. And they make me uncomfortable. And I'm wondering if there's something that I've done that makes you treat me this way because it makes me uncomfortable and I don't like it. I didn't soft pedal what my issue is. For me, that I am willing to and will address conflict also comes at this cost. Even if it makes the person I'm talking to uncomfortable, I need to deal with it because I need to know that you understand the problem and that I've given you every possible opportunity to change whatever it is that I'm upset about or to work with me so that we come to a win-win understanding. And so again, when you start looking at the practical parts of it, thinking about what's really important to you and making the commitment. Look, this value is something that I will honor, even if it makes me uncomfortable, even if it makes other people uncomfortable, because what happens, then you start to just kind of go over it time and time again in your mind. You start to really start to play that tape over. And the more you play the tape over in your mind when you violate your values, you make up stories that are perhaps convenient for you so that you can continue in that behavior. So that's kind of what I mean about values, choosing what's really important to you and making a commitment. Look, I'm going to stick to this commitment even when it's uncomfortable. I'll give you one more quick example and then I'll move. Um, whenever I do anything new, whether it's with a client or in my own business, one of the principles I live by, if I can't see a path for us to be able to do this for at least six months, I don't do it at all because I'm not gonna spend the energy to ramp up, to figure out how to do it, to turn around and then abandon it in two to three months. As you can imagine, no matter what kind of system or process or habit you're building, things take time for you to figure out if it's really gonna work. It's the same kind of thing, whether we're talking about something that's philosophical or practical, understanding what you lose when you don't maintain fidelity with those values and commitments and what you gain when you do, and literally making everything line up. If it doesn't line up, it just means that you don't do it. It's not that you're good or bad, it's just that we don't do it.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Very true, very truly said, yes. And I appreciate how grounded that is because fidelity is not about the perfection, but it's all about the coherence and life feels steadier when beliefs and behaviors stop arguing with each other. So that is something I I really believe that. And um when you talk about this, yeah, please, please.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

No, I love that way you said that. Um, when behaviors and beliefs stop arguing with each other, I love that. I think there's a wonderful way to think about it. So you don't have that internal turmoil all the time.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Yeah, exactly. Definitely. And I mean, when we're talking about this, also one thing comes in my mind is about the setbacks,

Navigating Growth and Setbacks

SPEAKER_01 18:00

right? So because growth often is not about embracing the discomfort, but it's about choosing like to invest again after disappointment, right? So when someone's been burned by the team or goal, or themselves only, so what helps them rebuild that trust without becoming kind of naive?

SPEAKER_00 18:25

A couple of things is I find to be very useful. First, you gotta be willing to dissect the situation. I think it's really easy for us to have a reflection, reflexive, emotional response. I didn't like it, therefore it was terrible. Well, that's a bit simplistic. You've got to be willing to look at what happened, even if it means you realize that there were some flaws on your part. With my assistant, it's when we first started working together. I had to learn how I thought I was the best communicator ever. And I would give her things, Angela, I need this. And she would come back with something. I'm like, how did you get to that? And I realized message sent wasn't necessarily message received. So sometimes you even got to be willing to look at what you've done to contribute to what you think the problem is. But in terms of the growth part, as you look at it, I think what makes it safer and easier for us to grow is not to label the things as good or bad. They simply are. This didn't work out because of A, B, or C. A is not bad, B is not bad, neither is C. This is simply what happened. And we do or don't want this to happen again. I think first and foremost, being willing to simply look at it and to do so without labeling a situation is absolutely helpful when you're trying to figure out how to, in fact, move forward. Then I think once you label the situation, I think you need to be able to own what you need to move forward. So let's say if you have an employee on your team who had a major maya culpa, they screwed up something. Either you're going to give them a shot to redeem themselves in terms of continuing to treat them like a good contributor to the team, or you need to fire them. But giving them this passive kind of unspoken punishment that wastes money and resources in terms of your own energy and budget, and it also dehumanizes that other person because I don't know how to get out of purgatory. So one of the things I tell leaders, let's say if you have that person on your team, they've screwed up something. You might go, hey, Mylena, um, I need you to work on this particular project. Um, and I also want you to know that I'm stepping out on faith here because of the last mistake we had. When you go ahead and you say to Mylena, look, the last mistake was really consequential, you go ahead and make it safe for Mylena to say, hey, let's talk about what went wrong. You also make it safe for you to say, because of that, I'm a little hesitant and I'm gonna check in with you more frequently. So as opposed to giving you the six weeks to get it done, I'd like us to connect every week just to make sure there are no problems. It's not that I want to micromanage you, but I'm also trying to get my bearings back together. And we're gonna have to work together to get to a place where our confidence in one another is back to where it needs to be so that we trust each other to do whatever solo work that needs to be done. But you can't explain what you need if you're not willing to look at it and frankly not label the thing as just this blanket failure or whatever negative label you want to give to it. Label it, own it, and then communicate what you need to get past it so that again, Mylena knows what to expect. Hey, look, Abik is gonna check in with me every week about this. I may or may not like it, but I know what he's going to do. And by the same token, um, I've made it clear as the leader look, this is what I need. I'm not punishing you, but I'm working on getting back to a place where I can trust you. It's things like that in terms of setting back. Often we ignore those kinds of uncomfortable conversations because they're uncomfortable. Think about it. For you to tell me, hey, I'm gonna check in with you every week because that last screw up made me uncomfortable. And because this is a budgetary issue, because the timeline is critical, because of who we are partnering with on this project, we can't absorb another mistake like that. When you make it clear, even though it might make me uncomfortable, I know what the stakes are. And you're also telling me that you're building in a buffer just in case things go left again so that we could catch it. I think that's good business, it's good relationship building. It's also uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

That's that's a great part of it, yeah. And uh so suppose someone who is listening right now who feels stuck professionally or personally also, then what will be the one uncomfortable truth they might gently ask themselves if they want real

Confronting Contradictions: Aligning Values with Habits

SPEAKER_01 23:04

movement again?

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Ask themselves are they building their habits and routines in a way that contradict what they say is the thing that they value or what's important to them. It doesn't matter what other people think, it has to be what they know inherently about themselves. Let me give you an example. I used to run every day, like four or five miles a day. But in the evenings, I would go to my favorite restaurant and I would get uh ice cream and extra salty French fries. And I would dip the ice cream in the fridge. It was fantastic. I mean, don't knock it until you try it. The sweet and the salty were doing something for me. And then one day I'm in my car, I'm enjoying my sweet treats, and I kind of had this epiphany. You claim you're getting up early in the morning so that you can be healthy, that you're running these five miles. But eating this treat every day undermines that healthy goal. Is your goal to be thin so that you look a certain way to other people, or is it really about being healthy, which no one may be able to see? And I think in terms of how we as people operate, we need to be honest with ourselves about what our habits are versus what we say our values are and look for contradictions. Yeah, you're running every day, but you're really more concerned about how you look in your genes, not about your cholesterol, because this um ice cream and potato uh french fries every day doesn't really help your cause. And I think for a lot of us, that kind of fidelity is something that we get away from. What matters to you? And are you contradicting yourself?

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Exactly. I totally agree. Amazing. So, mylena, like, for the listeners who want to explore about your work, your coaching, or the leadership drives, um, where's the best place to for them to find you?

SPEAKER_00 24:54

My name is the easiest spot. Mylenasutton.com is my website, and it will take you to all of the things the podcast, the coaching, the consulting. You can find all of that at mylenasutton.com.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Amazing. So, dear listeners, what I'll do is I'll put all the links and the details into the show notes for your easy reference. And thank you so much for joining us on MindMeets Machine. And if this conversation has resonated with you, then take a moment to notice where alignment or avoidance is shaping your life right now. Real change rarely starts loudly, but it always starts honestly. So, until next time, this is your host, Avake. Stay aware. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Thank you so much. I've enjoyed it.