How To Build Spaces Where Disabled People Belong with Jennifer Chassman Browne

A room can feel welcoming and still be quietly exclusive. We start with a simple test that every space runs: who fits here without having to ask? Then we follow what that question reveals about disability, belonging, and inclusion in the systems we build, from office layouts and event seating to the tiny social moments that decide whether someone feels fully human or subtly managed.

I’m joined by educator, poet, storyteller, and disability advocate Jennifer Chassman Browne, author of *See Us, Know Us: Profiles of Disability*. Jennifer breaks down what people often get wrong even when they mean well: not thinking about access at all, and then overcompensating with constant offers of help that ignore a person’s agency. We dig into the difference between being “expected” and being truly “wanted”, why proximity matters, and how barriers create a self-reinforcing cycle that keeps disabled people out of shared community life.

We also get practical: chairs that do not work for every body, poor sound, blocked sightlines, missing agendas for neurodiverse colleagues, and designs that force people into back entrances or dependent “press a button for assistance” setups. Along the way, Jennifer names one of the most common everyday harms: being talked about instead of talked to, as if you are not there.

If you care about accessibility, inclusive design, workplace accommodations, neurodiversity, and building communities where people actually belong, this conversation gives you language, stories, and next steps. Subscribe, share with someone who plans spaces or meetings, and leave a review telling us: what is one barrier you are ready to remove?

Transcript

The Doorway Test Of Belonging

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey dear listeners, there is a quite test that every space we build is constantly running. And most of us never notice it. This is very simple. Like this test is very simple because who fits here without having to ask? Who moves through this room conversation, this world without a second thought. And who has to pause at the doorway and wonder like if there's actually a place for them? So we like to believe belonging is something soft and kind of automatic. But for an enormous number of people, belonging is something they had they have had to fight for, explain, earn over and over. Just to be in the same room. The rest of us walk into freely. So today I'm going to look honestly at that. And for that, hey everyone, welcome back to another powerful episode of My Name is Machine. This is the podcast about the human side of the systems that we build and the lives inside them. So I'm your host, Avik, and today we are talking about belonging and inclusion. Yeah. Not as a policy or a checkbox, but as a deeply human question about who we make space for and who we quietly leave at the ages. So if you ever ever felt like you didn't fully fit somewhere or you were trying to build something that holds more people than it used to, then this conversation is for you. And in this conversation, I have a very lovely guest with us. Please welcome Jennifer Chasmin Brown. So welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Thank you so much. I really am glad to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Amazing. Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us, Jennifer. And dear listeners, before we delve deep into the discussion, I'll quickly have to introduce you with Jennifer. So Jennifer is an educator, a poet, and a storyteller, and for the past seven years, specially abled advocate. I would say a disability advocate. And she's written a book profiling her team of people living with disabilities. So her work carries a simple radical idea at its center that people with disabilities are not so different from anyone else. And that more inclusive world is something we can actually choose to build. Right? So I'll not take much of your

Expected Versus Truly Wanted

SPEAKER_01 2:40

time to listeners. Let's get started. Welcome to the show again, Jennifer.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Thank you so much. I do want to talk about the book, but I really loved the way that you started this episode. I feel like I'm a person who pauses at the doorway a lot. And that doesn't necessarily have to do with my physical disability, but just the idea of entering into new spaces, going into places where maybe you're not familiar with the people there or you don't know what to expect because you haven't been there before, right? And so I love the idea of belonging, being like connected to not having to pause on that threshold, right? Not having to worry about what's going to happen when you come in. Will that be a space that you can physically access? Will that be a space that you can like you know access in terms of being connected to the other people who are there and being part of a community? So I love that image. Thank you for starting with that image. That's really, really compelling to me.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Yeah, it is really means a lot. And I mean definitely I I wanted to start into this, like because it sits at the heart of all of this that you want people to understand that those living with the disabilities are not so different from anyone else, which is which is definitely the main uh part of it. And the very fact that this needs to be said tells me there's a misconception which is running underneath everything. So if I if I may ask, like when it comes to the disability and belonging, what is the thing that people get most wrong? Like even the kind, well-meaning people who think they are or they already understand, like if you can share.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

So I would back up a little bit, and I would say the first thing that people get wrong is not even thinking about people who are different than themselves. I have a friend who's actually in in Mumbai, who I who's one of the people profiled in the book, Puneet Singh Singal, and he said to me when we were talking about belonging, he said, I can tell when I was expected and when I was wanted. Right? When I come into a space, I know that they expected me and then they wanted me there. And so I think it's about just the at a basic level, when you are hosting an event or creating something and you want people to come to it, whether it's a physical building or or a you know a one-off specific event, that you're thinking about what who do I want in this space and how do I make sure that they feel comfortable and and welcomed? And so I'd say the first thing that's absent is that thought, right? That that idea that when you're creating a space or creating an event, you're thinking about, okay, so if somebody has a physical or mobility disability, how do I make sure that they can enter this space without like without struggle, without feeling like they have to go around to the back entrance and take the freight elevator where we take our dirty dishwater in and out of the building, right? So like thinking about those kinds of things, thinking about the person who's neurodiverse, who may need muted light or a quieter space or a fidget tool or item. I'm thinking about somebody who's visually impaired. Am I going to make sure that that there's signage for them, that there's, you know, like braille on the walls for any information that's shared. Someone who's audit, you know, has a hearing disability. Am I making sure that there's an interpreter? Am I making sure that the sound is good? So those kinds of things. Like, so I would say the first thing people get wrong is just not doing that calculus, not doing that consideration.

When Help Turns Into Fawning

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Um then the other thing that just is so hard for me is people, I don't know what other word to say other than fawning over me, like tripping over themselves to make sure that they're meeting my needs. I would say that there are no people with disabilities that I know with a diverse range of disabilities who aren't able to ask for themselves what for what they need. And so when the attention that we're given is only attention that's like, oh, you're disabled. You must be, you know, needing something that we're not providing you. Like, what what do you need? Do you need me to move this for you? Do you need me to push your chair? Do you need me to lift you up? Do you need me to carry this? Like, like I just want to be interacted with like anybody else. And if I need something, help with something, I'll ask for that. And so see us first as people, right? I would prefer that somebody just say, Hey, I love your shirt, then oh my gosh, what do you need? Do you need help with that? Like, just talk to me like a human being who has many facets of my identity and not just identity as a person with a disability. Well-meaning, well-intentioned. But when all that people say to you in the course of a day when you're out in the world is, oh, can I help you with that? Oh, can I help you with that? Oh, do you need help with that? Like, imagine that 15 times in four hours. And it's difficult to maintain a sense of one's own identity separate from being seen as a person who just needs help with everything.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

So where do you think that gap between meaning well and actually getting it right tends to come from?

SPEAKER_00 8:26

So, so I think this is where I come back to the book because I think my answer is knowing us, right? The book is called See Us, Know Us, Profiles of Disability. And I think it's about knowing people who have disabilities and really learning who they are as individuals and getting a sense of like, so if I do feel like I need to offer help or I want to offer help, how do I do that in a way that's not, you know, I even have people when I say, No, I'm good, I've got it, right? Can I help you with that package? Can I help you with the door? No, no, no, I'm good. Are you sure? Am I sure? Right. And so now not only am I a person with a mobility disability, but I don't even know for myself what I need or don't need, right? So it's like really listening to people and really getting to know them. And so this is like, you know, why I do the advocacy work that I do and the education work that I do, but also why I wrote the book. Because I feel like when you just read about the lives of 30 different people with different disabilities from different backgrounds, different races, genders, sexual orientations, classes, you see that like, oh, these are all whole human beings and they're not that different than anyone else, even though they're have might have specific needs because of their disability, they're still trying to live like whole, fulfilling, exciting, joyful lives. And so, like, I recall a conversation I had with somebody once who was asking me, Well, how do I so if I want to offer help, how do I offer help to a person with a disability? And I said, Well, do you ever offer help to able-bodied people? And he said, Yes. And I said, Well, then do it exactly the same way. Right? You offer help by saying, You good, right? You need anything? Do you want any help with that? And then you respect their answer, right? It's not any different than the way that you would interact with a non-disabled person.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

But I think it's hard for people to understand.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

So I mean, obviously. Yeah. I mean there's something definitely in that I want to hold on to because when you are saying what you are saying is like i it is not a cruelty, it's a distance. Like people are not unkind so much as they are unpracticed or say unfamiliar, a little unsure of themselves. So and I think naming in it it that way is generous, but it's also clarifying. The problem was never the heart, it was the proximity.

The Proximity Problem And The Cycle

SPEAKER_01 11:06

And we we we simply haven't been close enough to learn, right? So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

That is uh what I think it's it's a cycle that reinf is like self-reinforcing. And by that I mean when a person with a disability moves out of their own home into common spaces, if those common spaces are not ones that are accessible, that are welcoming, where they can participate. And I think of belonging as like belonging is the is the end goal, and the belonging really means that all of the other things are in place, right? So access and inclusion, physical accessibility comes first. Those things have to be in place before a person says, I feel like I belong, right? That's what I was going back to with my friend Punit about saying like I was expected and I was wanted. And that means that all of those other smaller things are in place. And then belonging is really about the experience of being. But I think it's a it's a reinforcing cycle that's problematic because if I go out and encounter barrier after barrier after barrier, am I going to be more reluctant to go out? Yes, it's gonna be difficult and discouraging. But then when I'm not in common spaces with other people, they don't get the opportunity to interact with me and to engage with me and to get to know me. Right? So you're saying what you were saying about like it's not an issue of people's hearts or desires. People are not ill-intentioned, people are not like wanting to be unkind or thoughtless. But because they don't get the opportunity to know me, maybe because I'm not in that space, because it wasn't an accessible space for me, they don't learn about me and what it would mean for me to be in, be in a space where I felt like I belonged. And I think that's true differently so for every person with a disability, a whole range of disabilities, right? Like, and that's why I said when you asked me, like, get to know us, be intentional about getting to know the human beings that we are, so that you can also, you, I mean broadly, you people can also understand that these barriers keep us from being in community. And we have great gifts to bring to all of the spaces that we inhabit. Like people with disabilities are productive, are joyful, are talented, are highly capable. So, like, create systems that include us, create spaces that are accessible for us by understanding who we are and what that space needs to look like, right? You know, get to know us so that you can help us break down the barriers that exist for us to even be in the same community in the same spaces, right? And those barriers are a lot of them are are physical barriers, a lot of them are systemic barriers, a lot of them are barriers of understanding that people don't get how I might communicate if I'm neurodiverse. They don't get the the small things like providing me with an agenda before the meeting instead of at the meeting that I'm supposed to process while I'm sitting there in front of you. Right? Like small things like that that people would then begin to understand as ways to be inclusive and as ways to create experiences of belonging. I feel like I said a lot, but thank you for that opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

No, definitely, definitely. It's really great. People should know about it, definitely. And also, like if you just go underneath it into the why of it, because exclusion really announces itself, and most of the time nobody decides to leave anyone out. And yet this happens constantly, and it baked into how uh rooms and schedules and whole systems get designed. So where I'm curious is like what you have I mean about what you have come to understand, like what's actually happening beneath the surface that keeps the world built for some people and not for others, and even when no one intends

Small Design Choices That Exclude

SPEAKER_01 15:22

it. So what do you have to say?

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Yeah, and again, I think that I think that systems have been put in place without there being thought for inclusion and experiences of belonging. But I don't think that most people are like, oh, we're gonna create a meeting, or we're gonna create an event, or we're gonna build our office in such a way as to exclude people. Again, I think it comes back to knowing people who have needs that are different than your own. And I don't even necessarily mean people with disabilities, like I think everybody has different ways that their spaces, physical spaces, experiential spaces might be designed so that they feel most comfortable, right? You know, somebody the other day was like, Well, do you do you only ask people with disabilities when you hire them what accommodations they need or what environment they need? And I was like, why are we only asking people with disabilities? Why aren't we asking everybody? Is there anything that we can do in this office or at this company that would allow you to feel like you can be most productive and most successful? Right? People without disabilities would identify things that would help them as well. So I think it's like not people's intention to exclude or to do things only one way. It's habit. It's it's the system. Like this is the way we've done it, right? Occasionally there might be people who push back against accommodation. Sometimes people talk about the cost of the accommodations, but I think many of them are very either require nothing in terms of cost or very little. And so I think it's just about like a recognition that we've only done things one way in the past, right? So there have been times that I've come into, let's say, a meeting space and there's one kind of chair, and it's a low folding chair. You've seen those, those little ones that like fold up and stack against the wall, and they're only about 18 inches off the ground, if that, and there's no arms and there's no way, you know, so they're sort of unsteady to begin with. When I walk into that room, I see that it's one size fits all, right? One set of chairs has been put out for everyone with the assumption that everybody can use that. I can't. And so I've done things like standing against the back of, you know, along the back wall in a room like that for a 45-minute meeting. Um it's a little bit astonishing to me that people don't say, wait, like clearly we've not created an ex, you know, a physical environment that everyone can access. And but it's it's small things like that. That like, oh, do we have different sets of chairs? Do we have some tables that have like, you know, a little additional lighting? Or, you know, can we get some of those plug extenders so that if you have to plug in your computer, you're not having to reach down to a plug that's four inches off the ground. Now it's, you know, along the wall, 12 inches. Can we can we think about like sound? Is the sound good? I was at a I was at an event a couple of weeks ago where they just had rows of chairs and the speakers were not elevated at all. So when a lot of us sat down, we couldn't even see the people who were talking, right? The microphone wasn't great, so it was a little bit hard to hear them. But if I might be hard of hearing, being able to see the person's face, if they're they're the speaker, is really, really helpful. And this was just this weird experience of I sat down and all I saw was the back of everybody's head. I was sort of doing this kind of motion, moving back and forth to try to see if I could get a little glimpse of the speaker as she spoke. But I don't think that people would necessarily see that as a as an access barrier, but it was, right? So it's those kinds of things that I think are really so many of them small, but they make a huge difference for people's ability to participate. And so the I guess the other thing I would say is when you're when you're doing this planning, when you're thinking about how to include people, ask people that you want to include, right? Ask people with diverse disabilities. Somebody the other day was like, oh, they just need one person with a disability on their team to sort of speak. And I was like, well, they actually need a whole bunch of us because we don't even agree on the the things that we need to feel like we belong. So multiple perspectives, even, is great and super important.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Exactly true. So and and also like I want to bring all this way down to the everyday life, like into the small moments like

Talking About Us Instead Of To Us

SPEAKER_01 20:08

most people never see. Because belonging and its absence are not usually the big dramatic events. They are very, very small, tiny things. And a conversation where someone gets talked about instead of talked to, plan made without a thought for uh whether everyone can actually join. So across across seven years of this book and the 30, 30 stories you gathered, what are the small or I would say the ordinary moments where exclusion widely shows up? The ones that would surprise people who are not, I mean, who are not paying attention?

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Like the thing that comes to mind immediately is talking about a person rather than talking to a person. Right? I've had it happen to me, and it's it's strange because I've had it happen to me where I'm in conversation with somebody else. So the person who's who's ultimately going to speak about me rather than to me sees that I'm in conversation with other people. I'm like sitting at a table, I'm engaged with other people, they're they're talking, I'm listening, I'm responding. And then I've had it where the person that I was talking to gets up, and somebody at a table nearby says to them, Well, I can help her while you're gone if she needs help. And I was like, What? So, first of all, you're making this weird assumption that I need help or that I can't do for myself, but also you just saw me and heard me talking to someone else, engaging in a conversation. Why wouldn't you just ask me? Right? If you want to offer me help, you just you just saw that I can speak and I can hear and I right. So why are you offering like I'm not even there? Right? Like I'm not even a f a full person that that like you're you're talking to. Someone else. And I have it, I feel like that's in so many different ways constant with a lot of people with disabilities. A person who's a wheelchair user who might be out with their partner or their spouse, people talk to that partner or the spouse like they're the caregiver, right? They're like, Well, that's actually my husband, not I'm not their nurse, right? But they'll talk to them like, oh, it's so good that you're caring for that person or what a great job you have to help someone who's in such great need. And they're like, it's not my job. That's my husband, you know, that's my wife. So just like these assumptions that people make, I think are these small things that if people could have a greater awareness, we go a long way to moving towards those spaces of belonging. Right. And again, I just keep coming back to like get to know us, get to know us in our myriad of, you know, bodies and experiences and and disabilities so that you understand that at the core we're people like you and whole people and can be interacted with and treated the same way that everyone else is. Right. And I say that at the same time that I think like, but also help us to create a world that we can access. Right. So there's like, you know, I really think it should be an obligation in our society to ensure that people can participate. You know, there's there's some laws in the state that are about the least restrictive environment. They call it that, the least restrictive environment for kids in schools. So you don't just put all students with disabilities into these spaces where they're not very much is asked of them or they're fully cared for without being challenged and pushed and encouraged. We talk about the least restrictive space. Like that's if that's gonna not challenge me, then I should be in a classroom where I'm not restricted from learning and doing the same things that other kids are learning and doing. We all want the least restrictive environment. We all want the most access possible. And yet there's still buildings being built where, you know, there's two steps into the doorway and there's no other entrance. Or there are things like, you know, if you need a ramp, press this button and we'll send one of our staff out to help you. Like, no, I want to be independent. Create the opportunity for me to be as independent as possible by creating physical structures, systems that allow me to be as independent as possible.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

And obviously that lands. And I think uh it is going to stay with a lot of people who are listening because what you said or what you just described as belonging was not anything grand. It was just being seen as a whole person and the way the rest of us get uh to be without even noticing it's a privilege. So that I mean the the smallness, uh the smallness of it's exactly the point. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

And while my my physical disability is a part of my identity, and maybe the most visible part of my identity, my concept of myself is much more complex, right? Like I'm a person who writes poetry, I'm a person who likes to go on a you know adventure days, I'm a person who likes to go out hiking and walking, I'm a person who you know performs my poetry, I'm a person who likes to go out to dinner and tea and movies and sporting events and concerts and you know, has friends across the world and across the country, and I travel and like and I also am a speaker, right? I give keynote speeches, I like have run programs, I've been in charge of schools, I've you know been a classroom teacher, I've been an administrator. Like that vision of myself is what I carry, and it's sometimes difficult to maintain it when what's reflected back to me is you are a person with a physical disability, period, end of conversation. And I think this is true for a lot of people with disabilities that like, wait, stop seeing me as either primarily that or just that, because I'm actually this person who has so many other pieces to her identity. And I would love to connect with people based on those, right? Around those, I would like them to know me and I would like to know them, right? And see how we're how we're connected and how we're similar. And so I think it's like so difficult when what we get from the world is like this one view of ourselves that's limited or focused on one little piece of our identity. I say little, for for many of us it's big,

See The Whole Person And Close

SPEAKER_00 26:55

but it's not it's not the whole, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Right. So today, if you have to give give one concrete advice to the listeners who are listening, what that'll be.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

When you see me, when you see us, people with disabilities, instead of engaging with us about that element of our identity, like pick something else, right? Maybe there's a place for us to talk about that down the road as we get to know each other or if we have other interactions. But that's why I said before, like, I would love it if people just were like, hey, I love your shirt. Yeah, I'm walking down the street, and instead of like normal person, yeah. Oh my gosh, do you need help? Are you okay? What's wrong with you? Like, no, just like the same thing that you would say to a non-disabled person. You would say, you know, I love your shirt, or, you know, we're in the line for ice cream, and you say, What flavor are you gonna get? Right? Or what's your favorite flavor here? Just the regular conversations that you would have with someone who's not disabled. Like, have that with me, have that with us. Recognize that we are a lot more than whatever disability you may or may not be able to see, and make connections, build connections because we're whole people with all sorts of other aspects to our identity. Like that would make me so happy if when I go out, I'm not constantly getting, do you need help with something or what's wrong with you? Instead, I'm getting like, you know, love your shirt. How was that meal? Like, what did you guys pick? Right? Like, just whatever you say to other people. Right.

unknown 28:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

No, I mean I mean I totally agree. I mean, it is it is very because this is this is very very I mean normal and without identifying certain aspects, rather keep it very simple. I rather keep it treat them as a normal human being. Uh that is that is my take. And right.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

And it's like, you know, you see me and you see a of mobility disability, okay. Pause before you say anything, and then look again and see about like what else do I see and how else might connect with this person as a person rather than just pointing out something that is like obvious, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

So uh Jennifer, like if anyone wants to connect with you, what would be the great medium to connect?

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Yeah, so Jen Chasman Brown, I'm very Googleable, um, just because I've done so many things, but I would also say LinkedIn, I'm loving to connect with people on LinkedIn. I have an active Facebook page, and my website is JenniferChasman Brown.com. So that's a great place to go, and the book will be available there very soon.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Amazing, amazing. So, dear listeners, what I'll do is I'll put all the links, details, everything into the show notes for the easy reference, and I'd say thank you so much, Jennifer.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Thank you. This is really a wonderful conversation. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Yeah, for the honesty and for the care underneath it, and for everyone who is listening right now, or maybe you will be listening later as well. Here's what I did live you with is the next time you find yourself in a room or maybe building something, planning something, gathering people, pause just pause on that quiet question. Like who fits here without having to ask? And then ask the braver one that who doesn't get and what does it take to change that? That's where belonging actually begins. And with this, definitely, this is my meets machine, and this is your host, Avik. And I would just say take care of yourselves and take care of the people who are sending a little outside the circle. I'll see you next time. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Thank you, Avik.