One Last Hit #5 w/ Jordan M | Multiple relapses, Hearing Loss and Finding A New Experience

 In Episode 5, Austin sits down with Jordan M. — a close friend in recovery who grew up a block from the ocean in Daytona Beach and took his first drink at 13. What followed was decades of cycles: treatment at 18, three years sober, a son, a marriage, a relapse, seven more years sober, a real estate career — and then it all came apart again. COVID hit, his father died, and on November 4, 2021 he woke up deaf in one ear. He sold his house, used chemicals to numb out, and admits there was a period where he was ready to speed things up and see what the bitter end actually looked like.

He made it back. Today Jordan is sober, has a cochlear implant, and is doing the work differently than ever before — men's meetings, a sponsor who shares the same hearing loss, iron sharpening iron. His message to anyone who says sobriety "didn't work" for them? Did you really try twelve out of twelve? If you did, he's got a list — and he'll go with you to try every single one.

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Transcript

Introduction

SPEAKER_02 1:18

What is happening, ladies and gentlemen? My name is Austin and welcome to the One Last Hit podcast. And I have a very special episode for you today. We are sitting down with Mr. Jordan M. Jordan. What's going on, you beautiful bastard? What are you up to, man?

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Oh shit. What's up, Daddy?

SPEAKER_02 1:37

So Jordan and I uh we have uh sobriety dates that are relatively close to one another. And and what's nice about that, you know, is I think I met Jordan when I had like a month sober or something. I think it was at that that meeting at the uh the little church there in Winter Park. But um, man, he and I have just been kind of on this journey together for the last last couple couple and some change years. And so I'm very excited. But one thing I don't know about Jordan is I've heard bits and pieces of your story, man, but I have not really dove into it. And I'm I'm just like I'm just stoked for it, man. So uh if you're ready, I'm ready, bro. Let's get after it.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Let's go.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Let's cool. Um, so uh where do we begin? Tell me where where were you born?

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Uh born in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Okay. And did you spend like most of your childhood there or or what was it?

SPEAKER_00 2:32

I my family relocated to the Daytona Beach area when I was a baby, and we lived a block from the ocean for my formative years, 18 years of my life. Okay, was in Daytona.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

So what was what was your early life like?

Meet Jordan M. — Sobriety Dates & How They Connected

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Were mom and dad married?

SPEAKER_00 2:51

They were at first. They divorced when I was about four, and dad moved uh about an hour south of Daytona to Titusville. He had uh work opportunity that uh that took him um down to Titusville. Uh so we saw dad, you know, on weekends, usually every other, but you know, dad coached uh my little league team. He was involved in uh my Boy Scout troops. So we we stuck we we got to see dad a decent amount, um, but for all intents and purposes, raised by single mom. Um childhood was was relatively normal, you know. I mean, with the I I guess with the exception of the divorce um and you know, shared parenthood or shared shared homes, um, shared custody rather, you know. Um living in Daytona is is pretty pretty boring. You know, we get the the beach is great for a while, but you kind of get burnt out on that. Um, or at least I I got burnt out on the beach. Um, you know, tourist season is fun, you know, people coming into town for any number of events that Daytona still hosts, uh, but for other 46 weeks out of the year, it's a pretty sleepy little quiet beach town. Um but yeah, like I said, normal childhood, man. I played baseball, did Boy Scouts, uh, took you know some uh I took piano lessons. Uh mom did a great job uh raising us.

Growing Up in Daytona Beach

SPEAKER_00 4:19

And you know, dad was as present as he could be. And um, for all intents and purposes, I don't I don't know that there was anything realistically uh uh uh contributing to my you know needing to experiment with chemicals as as a direct result of anything that happened in childhood. Um all intents and purposes, it was it was pretty pretty normal. I don't know. I mean I did well in school. Um yeah, I mean I had had one isolated incident from from childhood that was uh unfortunate. You know, I had a uh family trip up to Northern California where my mom's side of the family was, and uh an older cousin of mine was um going through puberty and I was still a little too young to really know what that was all about. And and he he took advantage of his curiosity with me and kind of persuaded me to to to have to do some of the stuff that that Pubestive boys do um a little earlier than I probably should have been exposed to that kind of stuff. Um, you know, again, unfortunate wasn't violent or or or or anything like that, but it was definitely manipulative and coercive. And you know, I I got to deal with that later in life, got to unpack that uh, you know, through the process of of dealing with with that. But you know, out outside of that, really, like it like for all and it was pretty pretty normal, uneventful, uh for the most part until high school. Things got things got wild in high school.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

So well, I'm curious.

The Incident From Childhood That He Suppressed

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Sorry to cut you off there. A well, a somebody in Michigan is really pissed at you for calling living by the beach boring. Uh but B, I'm I'm curious when you did unpack that later in life, like what did that look like? Like what kind of conclusions on how that might have affected you did did you come to?

SPEAKER_01 6:13

I think the the most revealing likely truth as a result of that was subconscious uh just in general. Hang on, bud.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

I'm gonna pause it.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

So yeah, I think the most revealing uh truth about that, you know, as far as uh how it may have affected me, you know, over the years, um mainly just a general subconscious distrust of men, uh skepticism to be honest or vulnerable around other men. Um that may have been reinforced by just the general relationship between my father and I. You know, dad came from a uh a military family, grandpa was a Vietnam uh Marine Corps vet, and you know, so he was he was definitely emotionally closed off. My father, I can I think I remember seeing him cry twice in my entire life. Uh, you

Dad, the Military Family & Learning Distrust of Men

SPEAKER_00 7:19

know, the the one time for sure was at his father, my grandfather's funeral. You know, so dad was was was pretty emotionally reserved. So I think that I think that reinforced that that um you know that that uh that underlying belief that came as a result of you know, called a the uh molestation, if you will, that that men can't be trusted. Um which probably reared its way, you know manifested in in my womanizing kind of experiences throughout, you know, uh throughout my my drinking and the chemical use and and even you know early attempts at sobriety too, you know, just seeking comfort from from women uh because men can't be trusted. Um but yeah, that this the situation from childhood was suppressed until I actually was in treatment uh for the first and to date only time that I went to treatment, but I was 18 or 19 years old, and the the scenario came back as if it had happened the day prior, and it was full sensory awareness of what had happened to the point to where it was undeniable that that situation had planned played out from my childhood. And you know, I made sure to check in with my mother and confirm that that uh that family trip actually happened, and she's like, Yeah, we were there around that time, and there was definitely a period of time during that trip where you know you guys wandered off to

Unpacking It in Treatment Years Later

SPEAKER_00 8:49

go. I don't know if it was uh it was some farmland, blueberry field or something like that, you know. I was like, I think that's where where when it went down. Like, yeah, makes sense. Um but I it was I guess I was fortunate that it came up in the in the environment that it did, you know, because I got to talk to therapists right away. Uh, you know, and then it came up later in inventory work, uh, you know, obviously had a pretty big resentment against my cousin. Um, but I I I do also feel that I was fortunate I got to see that that his lifestyle wasn't exactly putting a whole lot of gold stars in his corner. So, you know, approaching it from you know, he he probably was on the receiving end of some less than ideal behavior, probably worse than than what he you know he did, he did with me. So uh, you know, I managed to get to a place of compassion and forgiveness for him, but you know, I think it it it definitely kept me from wanting to be vulnerable with guys, you know, peers, even uh probably more peers than than than older men, because I had you know I had a good relationship with my father. Um, and you know, my cousin was was not too too much older than me, but you know, probably probably affected my relationships with with men of my own age or similar age for most of my life up until recently.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

So no, that makes a lot of sense. And so at what age were you when you first caught a buzz uh with whatever substance

First Drink at 13 — Lukewarm Rum & Coke

SPEAKER_02 10:20

that was on?

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Uh I guess 13 or 14. 13 or 14. Yeah. Alcohol was was first, and I can remember it like it was yesterday. Tell me about it. Uh buddy of mine who we were we were playing music uh a fair amount, I think originally through through the church that we were going to. Um, but we were we were at his his mom's house, and mom wasn't home. I don't remember whose idea it was, but the the idea presented, uh he had he knew of the liquor captain. So we we mixed up, we we caught we got some Cokes from the the pantry, right? They weren't cold, which was not the wisest choice to have our first cocktail experience, but uh we knew that rum and coke was a thing. So, you know, the coke was in the pantry, so we poured out some of the coke from the cans, fill it back up with lukewarm rum, and and had ourselves a few rum and cokes. And uh I mean talk about, you know, uh I I know I've heard you say, you know, it's it's like the the the brief glimpse of of quiet that you get when driving through a rainstorm and you drive under an overpass. Uh I love that. You know, I I I always describe it as as feeling feeling as if a headache I didn't even know that I had was gone. You know, uh it's uh I felt like I was I was funny,

That Feeling: The Headache That Disappeared

SPEAKER_00 11:49

I was popular, I was attractive, you know, all these other issues I had with myself that I didn't even know that I had were solved in that moment. And everything was funny. Um, and my my the outlook on life was was brighter than it ever was, and I can't wait to do this again and as often as I can afford to get away with. Um and it was all off of lukewarm Rodman Coke at uh a buddy of mine's house uh who interestingly enough is is sober now. Um the writing was on the wall for for both of us at that at that young age. Uh but yeah, alcohol was was the first. Cannabis wasn't too far beyond that. And it was another similar kind of like, oh yeah, this is great, you know. Uh everything was funny. Uh, didn't really care what other people I mean, there was a little bit of paranoia mixed in because of the environment that that that was the first experience with cannabis was, but uh otherwise it was like, yeah, we're gonna do this as often as possible for sure, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Man, unbelievable. I remember being God, 14 and I had started smoking weed, and I'd I had watched Cheech and Chong's up in smoke, you know, stoned at a friend's house, but I couldn't I couldn't pronounce Cheech and Chong. So I came home all stoned, and my mom says, What were you doing? I said, watching a movie. She said, What movie? And I said, Ching Chong Chang. And she knew exactly she knew exactly what I was talking about, man. And from that moment, she's like, Oh, this kid's going down a bad road, man. So so uh, you know, humble

High School, Weed & Buying Beer at 16

SPEAKER_02 13:20

beginnings, right? A little rum and coke, a little, a little weed. Uh, where where where does it go? And this is like this is in middle school, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:27

For you, yeah, like years of middle school for sure, the transition into high school, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

I managed to straighten out for uh the better part of a year in high school. This this cute cheerleader who was a year older than me caught my attention, and she was all about going to church. And so I I followed in in those footsteps there for a brief period, but then it wasn't long after that that I went back to my my first true love. And I it was probably led to the demise of that relationship. Um, you know, and and drinking became far more frequent, cannabis use far again, far more frequent um throughout high school, you know, like I I barely got through high school by the skin of my teeth, but you know, I I'd already learned the the rewards that came from from meeting goals and accomplishing things. So, you know, I I didn't I didn't fall too far behind academically, um, but you know, I did did just the bare minimum to get through what I needed to get through um to get through school. And I and my senior year was probably when when things started to look like, okay, this this is gonna become a little more repetitive and habitual than I may have originally intended it to be, but uh, but we can have some fun with this, you know. Um I remember I I I was able to buy beer uh from a couple of the gas stations in Daytona Beach, you know, at 16, 17

First Blackout, Keg Parties & Getting Cut Off

SPEAKER_00 14:50

years old. So I I remember I supplied uh I supplied drinks for for high school parties. You know, we would go drinking in the woods. Um and you know, that probably probably when I experienced my first blackout, um, which I'm sure was scary, but you know, didn't didn't slow me down or stop me. Um I'm pretty sure I got cut off at a at a high school keg party at one point, which I don't think that is supposed to happen, but they were like, hey man, you you paid five dollars for that cup, and you've had far more than your fair share of five dollars worth of this keg of natty light or whatever the hell we're doing. Um but yeah, there was there was definitely, you know, the the early signs of rearranging, you know, what I thought the trajectory of my life should look like to accommodate the lifestyle, you know, definitely began to to show its symptoms uh as I began to get closer to finishing high school. Um and then cocaine was introduced, and uh the the bottom kind of fell out there pretty quick.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Now we're talking. Now we're talking. So you you you barely graduate high school. What what happens at that point?

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Um I I was I've been accepted to Florida State and had ex uh was had even gotten so far into that process as to have gotten a roommate assigned, um, and originally was thinking I was gonna go to Tallahassee and go to college. Um but

Cocaine Enters the Picture

SPEAKER_00 16:23

recognizing that that was a big party school, and you know, with with cocaine in the equation now, you know, and my my drinking habits taking me to certain parts of town that I didn't think I'd ever go to, um and associating with people that I otherwise wouldn't be interested in spending time with. Um I uh I gave I gave sobriety a shot right out of high school. You know, I think my my first attempt to to quit entirely was was shortly after graduating high school. And I opted to stay in town uh and go to community college instead of go off to college. But um, but I I think the the writing was on the wall. You know, I I feel a certain amount of gratitude that, you know, it it runs in my family, this thing, you know, and so uh I was I was given warnings that that I might have it because of genetics. So, you know, after after a a series of of unfortunate outcomes as a result of drinking and and using, um I I kind of gave a little bit of credit where credit was due and that I might I might be what what my parents had told me that I probably was going to be, you know, alcoholic drug addict the whole nine. Um so I you know I gave their solution a shot. Um started going, you know, went to a few meetings, tried to see what that was all about. Um ultimately found that it that it wasn't for me at the time, and uh and and ran the experiment again.

First Attempt at Sobriety Right Out of High School

SPEAKER_00 17:57

But you know, it was it it got pretty bad pretty quick. Uh and I my my first semester at community college was wildly unimpressive. You know, uh the transcript from that first semester is is not anything worth being proud of. And ironically enough, I declared a criminal justice major because they took this one like I don't even remember the the premise of this college course, but it's it's a single credit course designed to help kids create a framework for their their education. And that's you know, they ask you, put you through these big surveys and ask you a bunch of questions. What are you good at? What do you like? What's important to you? And at the end of it, they spit out a short list of careers that you should consider and the subsequent academic paths to get there. And uh law enforcement was on the list. And I was like, all right, cool, why not? I had seen training day with Denzel, and I was like, I get down with that one for sure. Uh like that, that, that, that, that might work. Let's see how this how this might play out. And uh I remember I had a class that was like intro to corrections at eight o'clock in the morning, and I went to that class a few times on no sleep, uh, and was like, this this seems problematic. That uh learning about the correction system by a former corrections officer. And and I'm I I I I can't seem to talk without making my mouth move. And I'm I'm really tired, but I also can't seem to, you know, nonstop blinking. Um so I I I voluntarily went to treatment

Voluntary Treatment at 18 — How He Got to Orlando

SPEAKER_00 19:27

after one semester of high school. Um and that's how I ended up in Orlando. My I had a younger sister, she was already in treatment at that time because she was into she was into some big girl, big girl drugs. And yeah, so she she found herself in treatment um at 16 or 15 years old, maybe 14, uh, somewhere around there. So I was making trips over with the family to go see her and then going back home and going and partying, and like like, man, this is this doesn't quite add up. So I was like, maybe I'll give treatment a shot, and then uh ended up in treatment. Um which, you know, was probably saved my life, or at least, you know, set me in the gave me a real a real good separation from chemicals for a period. Sure. The trick treatment center was wacky, they're not around anymore, but it was a wacky treatment center. Um not not at all, I mean, just bastardize anything that looks like 12-step recovery. Uh it was not an appropriate introduction to you know what I've come to learn as being appropriate and effective ways to treat alcoholism addiction, but um served its purpose, you know. That's where I that's where I came to remember the incident from childhood, and you know, got my first opportunities to address that therapeutically. Um and I, you know, I I I stayed I stayed clean for a few years after that. So, you know, it served, yeah. Yeah, I was

Living the 'Never Had a Legal Drink' Club

SPEAKER_00 20:58

I was at one point I was the I was in the never had a legal jerk club. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

Um was this in a 12-step fellowship? Were you in a 12-step fellowship?

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Okay, I was hanging out, you know. I was really participating, but I was I was getting out friends. I was I was a teenager, you know, I was 19, 20, 21 years old. Um, there there wasn't there weren't many other kids my age at the time, you know, doing doing that stuff, or at least from what I could see, you know. Uh there was one young person's meeting and it met one night a week, and it they weren't that many young, that many, that young people that went to it.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

So I'm curious what your experience was at that young I I got sober originally at 22, so I at least have you know some of that experience, but I'm curious what yours was at such a young age.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

I mean the the the the fellowship that I did find was was valuable. I mean it and it was a a uh a viable distraction from the previous lifestyle, you know. I mean, you know, we would do we would we I remember we would go to Denny's after the late night meetings and hang out at Denny's until two, three o'clock in the morning. Uh and at one point we were like, we were like thinking it'd be cool to take shots of maple syrup, you know. So like it was it wasn't quite sober behavior, you know. I mean it was it wasn't drinking, but like it was like, you know, we're flirting with the flirting with the devil for sure. Um you know, but the the were some of the relationships that I made back then, you know, I still have today, you know, loosely kind of in touch with,

Fellowship, Denny's & Taking Shots of Maple Syrup

SPEAKER_00 22:28

still kind of like to check in on each other from time to time. Um but it was tough to identify, you know. I mean, I I I I'd had collectively a few months of of bad experiences with drugs and alcohol. Um and in comparison to people that had had decades, you know, uh anytime somebody said I I spilled more than you drank, I was like, You're probably right, you know, like I don't I don't I don't know that I got my money's worth on this thing yet, but like, but like I very well might have what what everybody else here has. Um, but I I I wasn't convinced, you know, like I absolutely wasn't convinced. Um but it gave me a good taste, you know. It gave me a real good taste and I knew where to go when things got worse later, which they you know inevitably did.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

So what was what was your relapse like? Like around that? Well, how long did you get? Three years? Was it three years?

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Yeah, three years, three years uh based on my best recollection. Um, you know, I I met my I met my son's mom. So the the meeting that I frequented most often was in a strip mall, and a few doors down from the strip mall was a pizzeria that a lot of people from the meeting would hang out at before and after, and sometimes during the meetings. And uh pizzeria hired um they they had cute waitresses across the board as like a standard for working there. And uh I caught the affection and attention of one of them and we started hanging out. Um we ended up we tried to play house, uh, which ultimately was

Getting Married, Having Brody & The Fourth of July Relapse

SPEAKER_00 23:57

unsuccessful. But you know, shortly after you know our third attempt of being together, um, you know, we she got pregnant, we got married, moved in together, tried, tried doing the whole thing, and I had her convinced that I probably wasn't a real alcoholic or drug addict. That was probably just a phase from teenage years. Um you know, we started to go through our own little arm difficulties within our relationship, and we're seeing a professional, and I had the professional convinced that I probably wasn't a real alcoholic, a real drug addict. So everybody co-signed running the experiment again, you know. Uh, so it was the summer of gosh, that probably was 2009, 2010, something like that. Uh 4th of July. I remember we all went out with a bunch of her friends that drank normally, um, and a couple of friends that I had made from from going to meetings, but mostly her friends. And the plan was that I was gonna drink with everybody on 4th of July. And I did, and I picked up right where I left off. And uh I've got I've got a buddy of mine from from uh from recovery that that was there that night. He was like, yeah, it was it was awful watching watching you do that, you know, knowing that was what was likely to come from it. And um, and uh was off to the races, you know. She and I drank together. Uh, she would she would drink, we would drink together, but then she would call it quits around midnight, you know, because we had a baby to take care of the next day. So she's like, I'm gonna get to bed and be up with the baby. And I was like, Well, I'm I'm trying to have people over to the house and like have a have a party. I

Running With Orlando's Bars

SPEAKER_00 25:30

was like, You got the baby. Uh uh Yeah, it was bad, you know. I mean, there was there were one or two people that would hang with me uh and and drink as long as we could drink. But um I was working in restaurants, I had graduated college, I managed to finish college, was all of a sudden, you know, through through that period of sobriety. Um I was still working at the restaurant and hospitality and I'd gotten a promotion. Uh, I was going to become the youngest manager that the company had ever seen. And so my last night at the restaurant that I had opened and built up with the regular staff, you know, being that I was transitioning into management, I got to hang with the managers for the first time. All right. So, like we had a couple of drinks and we went and smoked a little weed after work. And I came home to my son's mom, who's also my wife at the time, and she could tell that I was stoned. She's like, that's it, we're done. Pack your pack your stuff and get on out of here. She's hardline about about smoking weed, right? Um, yeah, to this day, I think she's tried it once or twice and wasn't a fan. She's wow. Thankfully, she's not one of us.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Wow. So she would drink with you, but anything beyond drinking was a no-no.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Hard no, hard pass. Incredible. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

So so all right, you you you built this restaurant, you move into management, you started drinking again, a little bit of weed, relationship ends without reconciliation. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Yep. Yeah, the professional ended up telling us that that we were better off figuring

Blackouts, DUIs He Walked Away From & a Totaled Car

SPEAKER_00 27:01

out how to co-parent from different addresses, which was great advice, you know, and it and that worked out well for us in the long term. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

So what happens? Do you go on a run at this point, or or what does this look like?

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Try some controlled drinking? Several years. I mean, I don't know that there were uh I guess you could try controlled drinking. I don't know that I was trying to control it, you know. I I'd never drank in bars before, you know. So like I had all these bars in Orlando, the greater Orlando area was my playground, you know. So uh uh I I I got my money's worth on that relapse. That that that run lasted for years. Um, you know, my my newborn son or toddler son didn't need much from me at the time. Um, you know, so I I was pretty free to kind of do what I wanted, free from the relationship, um, free from any most all you know responsibility surrounding being a father. Um you know, and over over time I remember I I I found that that going across town to drink was not safe because I would blackout and figure out a way to get home in a blackout, which usually meant I'm driving. Um and that started to get a little scary. So I kept it to a pretty tight radius, and that meant, you know, the the few places that were within a couple miles of where I lived. Um and then that got old. So I was like, well, we're gonna go back out to other parts of town again. Um and uh I remember a couple of blackouts, a couple of uh couple of times where I managed to

Going Back at 26 — This Time It Looked Like Life or Death

SPEAKER_00 28:35

get out of DUIs where you know, somehow managed to pass field sobriety tests, uh, convinced convinced the cops to let me get a ride home, um, total, totaled a vehicle, um and and got away scot-free. I mean, you know, I I I got away with a couple of couple few things that I was I recognized that I was uh my chances were running out, you know, to to get away with what I was getting away with. Um and so I uh I I went back to where I I knew to go, you know, went back to the same place that I went that was only a few doors down from the pizzeria. And uh a lot of people there were still there and they were happy to see me back. And uh and I dug in, you know, I dug in like I had never dug in before.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

How old were you at this point?

SPEAKER_00 29:26

26.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

26. Okay. So you go back to the meeting you were you were rolling with prior, people are still there, and what was what was different about it then than before?

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Uh I think the true nature of my of our you know, my disease was was uh I accepted it for what it for what it really was, right? Uh and it it looked like life or death, you know. Um it looked like that if I continue on doing what I'm doing, uh things are gonna get real bad real quick, you know. Um and so I was willing to to do what they suggested and not just hang out, you

Sponsoring Guys & The Moment That Hooked Him on Service

SPEAKER_00 30:07

know. And so I I did, you know, and I did that. I did what they suggested, you know, as as far as uh all the suggestions I went and and and picked back up with the the same guy that I had been trust that I trusted before, but we never really did much. Um and you know, we kind of went through the motions again, and it was it was a pretty lackadaisical approach to you know to 12-step action recovery type stuff, but um still you know felt like I owed it to to pick up where I left off, and then went and got a second sponsor uh and and kind of you know and took a new approach to it. Um and every time we got to that place where I'm supposed to be the one reaching out to help somebody else, I'm like, I'm not, I don't know that I'm that I'm quite ready yet. So I went and got a third within third sponsor probably within a year, year, maybe a year and a half. Um, and and that that sponsor I I think you know I led with this, you know, seeming inability, unwillingness, or or or unqualified, unqualification, not qualified approach to to helping somebody else because I'm I'm still you know feeling like I'm pretty young and got some more more drinking experience on the mobile for sure, but you know, like really looking up to some people that know the literature and know the program. And I I don't, you know, but but he dug in and and helped me get a little bit more acquainted with the literature and the books and the process and um taught me how to how to approach guys. And so I followed that, followed that suggestion and approached a guy who uh seemed to have a you know kind of lukewarm sponsor at the time and gave my number and said I'd be I'd be happy to help if you ever just want someone to talk to. And next thing you know, he asked me to be the guy, and I got to be the guy for the first time. Wow. And that I I I can remember that experience just as clearly as I can remember my first drink and my first high, you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

What was that like? Like, what was that like to have somebody ask you?

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Oh man, I mean, I I was flattered, I was floored, I was intimidated and scared, and uh he he was a he was a such a cool character, too. I mean, like big, stocky stature refrigerator of a guy. I mean, competitive power lifter at one point, but also like off the charts smart. Like ended up going to study neuroscience at a high level, you know, like uh brilliant, you know, and soft spoken, quiet, um, but like physically very intimidating. Um and he was desperate, right? And he was eager and he was willing to do the work, and he did the work. Um, and I I remember distinctly he had gotten a really good job. He was starting to clean up his past, and he had that kind of it was almost like a like an aha moment of his own, you know, where like you know, he had heard it from me and other people that saw the change in him. But I think he started to be convinced that he was actually getting better, you know, it was after you know months of work. But uh we were sitting in the front seat

Seven Years, Real Estate & Building a Real Life

SPEAKER_00 33:08

of my explorer. I was driving a four explorer at the time, and he was in the passenger seat, and I think I was dropping him off for work or hanging out with him while he was on a break for work. Distinctly remember where we were geographically, and uh he's like he said something, he's like, Man, you saved my life. And I was like, dude, I didn't do shit. I was like, he saved your life, and I was like, and it as soon as I did that, I was like, what what where did the whole thing just came together? And I was like, dude, this is so wild, this is so far outside my realm of understanding and logic. That like he said that to me and I responded the way that I did, and it was it was powerful, right? Like he was probably in tears, I was probably in tears, uh, or at least you know, overwhelmed with emotion as to how special that moment really was. Um and I was hooked, man. I like uh the Kool-Aid was had never been tastier in that moment, right? Uh so I went I went on a rampage and was ready to save everybody at that point, you know. And and did you?

SPEAKER_02 34:12

Where did where did it go from there?

SPEAKER_00 34:16

No, no, I mean I I I definitely, you know, I I took that experience and you know, and and and definitely went on a uh a campaign, right, to to sponsor as many guys as I could, you know, but I but I also you know I it wasn't long before you know I became distracted with relationships and um you know the the the the young people's you

Young People's Fellowship, Pride & the Slow Drift Away

SPEAKER_00 34:38

know like sub-fellowship if you want to call it became really attractive and like service work within that was also a really big component of that period of sobriety for me, um, which included you know popularity and like you know gaining a network that was far outside of our immediate geographic network and you know, parties and events and conferences and you know, juggling, you know, raising a child, you know, every other weekend because you know Brody's Brody's starting to grow up at this point, you know. So we're having some fun and and it, you know, I'm I'm kind of showing off a little bit because now I'm now I'm a present father and active involved in his life. And we're doing some cool stuff. Um but you know, probably probably ill, ill motives behind some of that, you know, just looking to get validation that that I haven't gotten in previous chapters. Um uh but I mean I I think I I think I carried, you know, two, three, four, five sponsees at different points throughout the next four or five years, you know. Uh and that, you know, that ended up being a a full you know, six, seven year period of of you know, pretty, pretty active work uh in the program, you know, service work, you know, and making a life for myself too. You know, I got out of the hospitality industry, I got into real estate, and that was that proved to be pretty, pretty successful there for a few years. Um, you know, I was able to create a cool life for myself, you know, got out of renting these tiny little one and two bedroom condos and bought a home and had some toys and took some trips and you know, provided for my son in a pretty good way. But uh, I think that also led to ultimately the demise, which looked like resetting the clock again. Um but uh but it was you know, for all intents and purposes, it was a pretty cool, pretty cool run there for for eight years of of sobriety in my late 20s and early 30s.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

So you mentioned the demise. We uh I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about the time leading up to that. Like what did it the still sober time and then obviously the picking up time?

SPEAKER_00 36:39

Yeah, I mean, leading up to year eight, you know, I mean, it was uh, you know, we we we hosted a really big conference in Orlando um that was a big culmination of a lot of years of work. Um and you know, I was pretty burnt out with with that experience, which a lot of people have similar experiences, but but that that led to a uh a pretty deliberate separation, at least from that, you know, that that group, that sub-fellowship, if you will. Um plus my material success, I think, fueled uh some some pretty big ego. You know, I had I had been given opportunity to speak um in front of some decent-sized crowds, and I I I remember talking more about how, you know, like I was probably like a hopeful agnostic and therapy was really great, you know, um, which was all very true, but it wasn't it wasn't a great message of recovery, you know. Um and it and it was it there was a lot of pride, a lot of taking credit for for the

The Ego That Grew With Material Success

SPEAKER_00 37:38

things that I had accomplished and the successes that I had. Um, you know, another another bad breakup as a result of trying to, you know, align with partners that were just ultimately unequally yoked, um, you know, and and and feeling as if I came out ahead from that. Um I'd seen a couple people close to me that were seemed to be drinking successfully, and uh that started to look attractive. Uh so that that last year was probably my my exit, you know. I I like the uh this theory that, you know, I would work the steps backwards, right? Probably disengaged with anybody that was still calling me their sponsor at the time, you know, started finding fault at every meeting that I was going to, or the people at that meeting the meetings that I was going to. Um far more interested in, you know, this just awful idea that I needed to continue building my life outside of recovery meetings. Um and I feel like at one point I I saw or read or learned that that biologically on a cellular level, our entire bodies are regenerated eight years every eight years, and I'm coming up to eight years sober. I'm like, well, perfect time, right? Eight years sober. Uh I I don't longer have the same proclivities. And so uh within a couple months of of getting eight years, you know, I uh went on a bumble date

The Decision to Pick Back Up

SPEAKER_00 39:12

and she had some cocktails and I had some cocktails with her. Um right back at it.

SPEAKER_02 39:18

You never hear that I and I I forget who says it, but it's somebody maybe it was it was Steve or some one of the guys, he says, he says, I've got two brain cells, one's selling me bullshit and the other one's buying it. And that eight years of of your body regenerating, man, that is that's a bumper sticker right there. Yeah, I I drank over that, you know. That's hilarious. Back by science. Yep. Yeah, no, no. I mean, hang, you could make the argument. And so uh the bumble date. I met my wife on Bumble. Bumble dates were nice.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Uh the only reason I haven't I haven't deleted it yet.

SPEAKER_02 39:54

So you you pick up how old are you at this point? Oh, we lost sound. So you you go out on this date, on this bumble date with this girl, you pick up some drinks. How old are you at this point? Oh, we're cutting out again. Say it again. 34?

SPEAKER_01 40:22

34?

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Yeah, dude. Hold on, I'm gonna pause this again.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

I was 34, yeah, 34 years old.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

Okay, and so so where where do you go at this point, right? And and it's interesting the mindset that before you answer that, the mindset that you kind of allude to, and that when when we get to

COVID, Meetings Getting Weird & Dad Getting Sick

SPEAKER_02 40:43

that point of restless, irritable, and discontented again in sobriety, and and our our brains offer us up this absurd reason for maybe I can try it again. Oh, did I lose you? Nope, you're there. Uh, this insane reason for maybe maybe I could try it again, and and we believe it, uh, almost without a shadow of a doubt. Like it's it's crazy the way that that works. And so, all right, you you pick up what does this run look like?

SPEAKER_00 41:12

That one didn't last long. Um, that would have been somewhere around the holiday time uh 2020. Um within a few months, I mean, COVID, I think COVID had said at this point, right? So like the world was getting weird, and it may have been, you know, leading up to that, that that that may have contributed to my justification for going out again, right? Because meetings were getting weird and uh added to my disinterest to it. But um my father caught my father got sick in March of 2021. Um, and he ended up dying of COVID within about 10 days of getting sick. March or April? April. Maybe got sick, he got sick late March, past early April. Um, and the the bottom really fell out for me after that. I mean, I I had a good reason to anesthetize and you know, be mad at God, the world, you name it. Um, and uh, you know drank and used to escape, right? I didn't want to feel what I was feeling at the time. It was it was by design. Um

Dad Dies of COVID — The Bottom Falls Out

SPEAKER_00 42:15

and uh and that that became that became really, really scary, really ugly. Um and so I I I I think I lasted through the summertime of 2021 before I wandered back in with tail between my legs after like six months, um, you know, and and dad passing. And um, but but even that, you know, is that would that would have been summertime of 21, and then I lost my hearing in November of 21. And that was my next excuse to be mad at the world and God, because that you know, that there was no no real solution for that after a few months of seeing doctors. Um, you know, so I went back out again and and absolutely dig into that a little bit. Yeah, sure, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

So what what happens? All right, you you stop drinking after the summer, and then November comes around. And I've heard you tell me the story, you know, in the past, but I'm curious if you could explain it to the people listening.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

Sure. Uh yeah, uh November 4th, 2021, day that I'll never forget, right? I mean, I I woke up early, way earlier than I needed to be awake for, and uh felt like felt like I had swimmer's ear, right? Like my ear was clogged or full, um, but couldn't seem to shake it up or loosen it up or clean out whatever earwax may have been in there. So uh started to get a little bit concerned, you know, as the day was getting started. And Google said, yeah, treat it like a medical emergency, you know, go see a doctor if you can. Um so I got my son off to school, uh,

November 4, 2021 — Waking Up Deaf in One Ear

SPEAKER_00 43:46

got a doctor's appointment for that afternoon, went and got every over-the-counter earwax removal kit I could get my hands on, and spent hours thinking it might just be earwax. And the doctor went and looked inside my ear uh with uh, you know, the autoscope and was like, yeah, no, that's one of the cleanest ear canals I've ever seen. Um and he went through a hearing test and it was bad. It was real bad. So they they prescribed um steroids, oral steroids, prednisone for a couple weeks and hopefully it would come, hopefully it would improve. It did not. Switch from oral steroids to intramuscular steroids uh for a couple of weeks, hoping it would improve. It did not. And uh after that, they said, well, you know, we got one less shot to try, and that's shots of steroids directly into your eardrum. But I don't know that that's a good idea because your hearing hasn't gotten any better since then, uh, since it happened. So we opted not to do that. Um, started going through a process to get uh approval from insurance to get a cochlear implant. Come to find out I didn't have a the right insurance company to approve that single sided cochlear implant procedure because they didn't feel it was medically necessary. Uh so the doctors basically said, not much we can do for you, but come open enrollment next year, come back with like a blue cross plan. Uh And in the meantime, just distract your brain from the constant ringing that it's all I could hear at that point, you know. Uh fortunately some of the other side effects had gone away. There were some balance issues at first, some vertigo. Um, but the ringing was 24-7

Steroids, Cochlear Implant & Insurance Denying Coverage

SPEAKER_00 45:16

in my deaf ear, right? And that was maddening. Um, and the doctor said, just distract yourself from that. And I was like, well, I know how to do that. Uh so I went back to chemicals and uh figured I would just ride it till the wheels fell off or some miraculous change of policy or medical breakthrough or you name it. Um learned what it would cost to pay out of pocket. Didn't have that much in the bank, but I had some assets. So I sold, sold the house, sold as many toys as I was willing to par with, um, moved from Orlando to Sanford uh because downtown Sanford looked like a lot of fun. And uh as a result of the move, I was able to change insurance companies earlier than open enrollment because I was still self-employed as a full-time real estate agent at the time. Um but I dug in and found found an insurance company that I could get a policy through the marketplace that would allow and approve the procedure. So about a year later, um I managed to get seen by the right doctor uh who got the approval from the insurance company that I had just gotten, and had a surgery date scheduled for the summer of uh 2023, and went down to South Florida and became a bionic man.

SPEAKER_02 46:34

Yeah. So were you were drinking this whole time, like November, December of 21 until 20 pretty much pretty much? Early 24, late 24.

Selling the House, Using to Numb Out

SPEAKER_00 46:45

Yeah, I remember I remember I wandered into a couple of meetings during the time that I was living in Sanford, but you know, it wasn't it wasn't the quality of life that I had was was was slim, you know. I mean, with the the the tinnitus when I was sober was was pretty unbearable, you know, the tinnitus while drinking and and using and partying and socializing, you know, that was a a very viable distraction for the the literal sound in my head, you know. Um I was I was willing to go on to the you know the bitter end, blotting out the consciousness of my intolerable situation as best I could. Um, because what I had physiologically was was was intolerable. Um but then I got the procedure, I went back a month later, uh, they turned it on, the ringing went away, and then uh I celebrated for a couple months and then and then showed back up in December of 23.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

And what what was the catalyst to bring you back in?

SPEAKER_00 47:43

I think once once the the they activated the device in my head that that caused the ringing to stop, you know, the there there there felt like there was a real quality of life worth preserving, you know, and uh whatever additional convincing came as a natural byproduct of that, you know, period of anesthesizing deliberately um was was sufficient, you know. I mean, I had uh another several other you know, near misses with law enforcement, you know, car

Ready to See What the Bitter End Looked Like

SPEAKER_00 48:17

accident, hospitalization, um you know, all during that that what would have been two-year period, so two and a half year period. Um you know, so it was there there was there was little to no doubt in my mind that that I needed I needed to be done, you know. Um Brody was gosh, he would have been 15 at the time, 14, 14 years old, my son, 14, you know, obviously super impressionable. Um somehow managed to avoid any real consequences for him, you know. He he he would tell you he's never seen me drink, you know, because he didn't know I was drinking the couple of times that I that I did with him around. Um, but knew that I was I was flirting with some pretty severe consequences that that could start having adverse effects on him and and other people that that were fond of me. So um quality of life had been restored, you know. It took a couple of months, I think, for me to really come to terms with that and get over the pride of of coming back, you know, again. Sure, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

Well, and I'm curious about that. As somebody who has, you know, lived most of their adult life in and then out of a 12-step fellowship, what was it like coming back, you know, this last time? What what what did you find to be one of the most difficult things?

SPEAKER_00 49:46

Uh I mean, uh anything that that I I think was was perceived to be difficult was only real actually difficult in my head before I actually followed through with it. You know, it was fear-based difficulties for sure. I think once I once I finally did show up again to the the places that I didn't want to go to, um, I was met with open arms and encouragement.

Coming Back With Humility — The Last Time

SPEAKER_00 50:07

You know, I mean it was humility is, you know, it's a tough pill to swallow, but I think it it it was the appropriate theme and and largely still is, you know, for me, you know, the appropriate theme or focal point of of my sobriety now is humility. Um and you know, really accepting true defeat that this thing, this thing will always win if I don't do a couple few things that I was taught to do a long time ago, just never put into practice with any real discipline, you know, uh and and and keeping humility as the focal point um I think has has helped keep me right size. Um, you know, a couple of and again, near-death experiences, um, you know, and and recognizing that while my quality of life, even with the cochlear implant, is still significantly compromised, it's far better than the alternative, you know, being sober for sure. You know, um, and I I've leaned into that, you know. I mean, you know, you've had a ferro seat to what the past few years of of my life has looked like with you know, with hearing loss in sobriety, you know. Uh I I've managed to lead into that. It's become a really special silver lining for for what life looks like today, you know. But uh, but yeah, I was I was pretty scared to death there for a little bit. You know, I prior to getting sober again, I was willing to see my son through high school, right? I figured once he graduated high school, I would exhaust whatever resources I had left to go, you know, see what the bitter end actually looked like, you know, if I could speed it up, you know, because right I missed dad too. I was, you know, a little more interested to see what dad's what dad was experiencing on the other side of of uh of a human experience, you know.

SPEAKER_02 51:50

So uh one of the things that that I struggled with, because I'm a frequent retread, uh even you know, more times than than I can count, probably at this point. But one of the things that I struggled with having been in 12-step recovery for most of my adult life was was having some knowledge from a prior experience, but and then then not allowing myself to have a new experience because what I was doing was I was framing up my current experience through the eyes of what I had experienced before. Wow. I think it just made myself confused. But but I think you I think you understand what I'm saying right later. Yeah, just like let it be new, like allow myself to be a newcomer, not be the guy that's like, hey, I'm new, I got two months, but I had seven years, or hey, you know what I mean? That that kind of guy. And uh and I'm curious if you went through any of that coming back.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

Oh, hundred 100%, right? Uh you know, but I I I

Consecutive vs. Collective Sober Time

SPEAKER_00 52:47

remember getting some some neat insight from some people. I can't remember specifically who or what the context was, but you know, they they they pointed out that like the collective experience in sobriety is not wasted, is not gone, you know. Like you you managed to, there were certain things that you learned to do successfully or effectively for significant periods of time, you know. And so even though like in the early days, you know, raising my hand is a newcomer or picking up, you know, all the chips leading up to the year, you know, uh I think it in the back of my head, and I maybe even articulated a couple of times that like when somebody asks how much time you have, it's like, well, consecutively, I've got this. Collectively, I've got this, you know, because like and I feel like there's value to that, you know. And um when it comes down to like the experience part, like the experience has been wildly different, right? The knowledge piece is is absolutely worth retaining because you know, the literature hasn't changed, the suggestions within the literature haven't changed. Sure, there might be some new tactics to to you know in uh uh implore um or deploy rather, but you know, uh it's all surrounding the same the same thing at the core, all of the it's still the same, you know. So, you know, I I feel profoundly fortunate that you know I I had this sponsor that I had for the first year, year and a half, you know, we were sponsee brothers there for a bit. Um, you know, and he he gave me some ideas and some suggestions of things that I had never heard of before. And I got to work on all of them, you know, like immediately. And I I took it competitively, like similarly how he refers to his experience being new, you know. I remember thinking to myself, man, this guy sponsors a bunch of guys. I'm gonna be MVP of the year, rookie of the year, sponsee of the year, you name it, you know, and and you and I were in competition at one point, you didn't even know it, you know. Um just just from that that that approach, you know, but like I I I knew that I needed to have a new experience. I knew that I needed to have a different experience that was sustainable and not that glamorous, you know what I mean? Because I had had a glamorous experience before, at least what I thought, you know. Um or if this experience, if and maybe when it does become glamorous, that I don't take any credit for

Dancing With the Devil — How Many Lives Do You Get?

SPEAKER_00 55:17

it, you know what I mean? Because like largely I don't deserve another shot at this thing, you know. Um how many lives, how many lives does one get to really have when it talks about, you know, when we're when we really are dancing with the devil, you know? Um so I mean the the experience has been profoundly different, uh even though the knowledge piece or the the approach to what we know to be true about, you know, the literature, the program, the actions to be taken, you know, it's it's grown without a doubt. It's absolutely grown and evolved. And it's still, you know, still very humbling to to talk about this stuff, you know, because there's I have a buddy that I was in treatment with 20 some odd years ago who is only a couple months older than me, and he hasn't changed his sobriety date, right? Like he is he's 40 years old with 21 years sober. That's wild. Yeah, man. And you know, we're we're we're yeah, dude, crushing life. And uh, you know, we're he and I are still in touch, you know, his family and and and my family are still pretty, pretty deeply intertwined. I still call his mom my mom. You know, I'd call up right now and and ask for a home cooked meal and she'd ask me what time I'm showing up, you know. Um so that that those experiences run pretty deep and it's it's it's it's humbling to talk about, but it's a great reminder of of what's out there waiting for me if if it seems like a good idea at any given point, which it hasn't, you know, it really hasn't uh in the past few years.

SPEAKER_02 56:47

Um along those lines, I want to ask you a question. I mean, one thing, you know, anytime I can recollect having a very fulfilling experience in sobriety, I've always been surrounded by deep connections with other people. Like I can I can look out and I can go, okay, here are all the people that are in my circle and they know me and I know them, right? And it's that thing that, you know, I never really got anywhere else. And I'm I'm curious if that's been, you know, a part of your experience as well.

What This Chapter Looks Like: Men's Meetings & Iron Sharpening Iron

SPEAKER_00 57:18

For the last few years, uh, without a doubt, you know what I mean? Um the experience that I've had over the past few years looks nothing like the collective 11 years or so that I'd had prior to this, you know. Um primarily men's meetings and an HI commitment. Uh you know, leaning into those connections with other men that are walking similar paths, you know, the iron sharpens iron, God speaking us through 90 degree angles, um, you know, learning how to get past or or learn to get comfortable in the uncomfortable, you know, with being transparent and honest about what's going on in my life, despite the fear of judgment, you know, which has never been the reality, right? It's all in my head. Um, you know, and and and at any point in time that I'm feeling lonely, I all I gotta do is open the messages on my phone and and see that that there's a handful of guys in there that I know everything about what's going on in their life. And at any given point, they're happy to hear about everything going on in my life. And uh, you know, I I I've done better in the past. I can afford to do better in that that arena here and now, um, you know, with with just keeping current. Um, but you know, I I I I would say to my defense, you know, when I when I get current, I get current. You know, it's there's I don't I don't hold back. You know, I'll I'll I'll get you I'll get you up to speed with what's really going on without beating around the bush. Um, you know, my current sponsor knows everything going on in my life. Um that whole experience has been wild, meeting, meeting the guy, you know, Paul

Paul — The Sponsor With the Same Hearing Loss

SPEAKER_00 58:47

that I the guy that I've got now who has the same kind of hearing loss that I do um as a byproduct of of Hunter and you know the the retreats and all that stuff, you know, like just none of this, what I've got now, none of this looked attractive five, ten years ago. You know, like I was all about doing young people's stuff and throwing parties and going to conferences, you know, where we're throwing parties and staying up late and hooking up and and now it's like not interested, you know. I can't wait to go hang out with a bunch of dudes and talk about our feelings, you know.

SPEAKER_02 59:21

Like what's a lot to be said for growing up. I mean, there there really is. And I'm curious, and and maybe we'll can conclude with this question. Sure, you know, to if and I I'm always surprised, and I I I I watch a lot of recovery podcasts, and I'm surprised at how many comments come in from people who are they would they have tried sobriety, they couldn't get the sobriety angle, or it didn't seem to click. And and I'm curious what you would say to somebody who um feels like they've tried sobriety and they've they've tried the 12-step recovery angle, and and you know, they would say something like, Well, it just didn't work for me, you know. And I I know you've heard people say that before. I know I've heard a lot of people say that before. Uh what what would you say to what would you say to somebody like that?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

Oh man, I don't know. I try and pick it apart. Like, did you really try? Did you try 12 out of 12? You know, were you were you actively reaching out to people that are dying from this thing? Um

What Jordan Says to People Who Think Sobriety Didn't Work

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

are you re are you the real deal? You know? Um that may be might not be the best approach to it, but you know, arguably plenty of people show up here that that may not have exactly what we have. They just had a bad run at it. And so arguably they may not have the same experience going through the process of recovery that we've known to be effective. Um but you know, I would I would say have you really try have you really tried? Have you exhausted all possible options within that? Have you tried every meeting within a 30-minute drive from where you live, right? Are there other meetings to try? Um, is it is it the people or is it the actual process? Because if it's the people, then no, you haven't tried, right? People are fallible. We're all gonna sell, we're all gonna disappoint you at some point, you know. Uh the program and the and their introduction to a power greater than ourselves that is perfect and infallible will never fail, you know. Uh the track record speaks for itself. Not just me, but anybody and everybody I know that that that practices this thing on a daily basis, you know. So um try again, try harder, try different, you know, something like that. If it if you've got this thing and you're scared to death of it, let's find something that you haven't tried yet, because it's there's there's a version of this that'll work for you. It might look a little different than the one you've tried, but there's there's another version. Might just look like a slightly different group of people, or the Buddhist approach, or the celebrate recovery approach, or you know, whatever, or a different, a different A, a blank A that we just haven't tried, you know, like maybe their

Try Everything — Drum Circles, Crystals, All of It

SPEAKER_00 1:01:52

meetings are way, way more appropriate for your cup of tea. Let's go try them all. I'm down. Uh I'll I'll go with you. You know, I want to experience it all. Drum circles, crystals, you know, essentialists. Let's do all of it, you know. Let's see what works. Because there's there's options you haven't tried yet. I'd almost guarantee you. If you're convinced it's not working, then there are options you haven't explored yet.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:15

Beautiful.

Closing & Thank You

SPEAKER_02 1:02:16

Jordan, thank you so much for being here, my friend. Always a pleasure to see you. I love you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:21

Thank you, sir.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:25

Yeah, dude. For anyone listening in, thanks for tuning in. And uh we'll catch you guys on the next episode. Take care.