One Last Hit Episode 10 | The Anti-12 Step Movement | Moving Through Hard Things In Sobriety | Old Ideas

 Hunter S. is back — and this time he's Austin's sponsor. They open with the anti-12-step movement that's taken over recovery media: the podcasters, the guests, the hour-long attacks on AA. Austin and Hunter aren't interested in firing back. Instead, they go somewhere more useful — a word-for-word breakdown of Step 2. Not the platitude version. Hunter's read: it's not a reprogramming, it's an unbelief — a deprogramming of the old ideas that have always run your life. And it's not a one-time event. At ten years sober, Hunter hit a bottom he didn't hit in rehab. That's how Step 2 works if you let it.

But the most raw moment is Austin's. That morning, before the recording, one of his kids got a bloody nose — a milk carton, a moment of trying to control a chaotic morning, and an accident he didn't even see happen. He called Hunter from the car. And now they're unpacking it live: selfish, self-seeking, dishonest, afraid — the four inventory columns. What I did wrong is Step 4. How it affected them is Step 8. Austin almost didn't publish this one. He did anyway, because that's the whole thing: brothers in our defects, not our virtues.

This is the One Last Hit Podcast. 

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Transcript

Welcome Back, Hunter

SPEAKER_00 1:18

What is happening, my friends? My name's Austin, your host for the One Last Hit Podcast. And back with me today, Mr. Hunter S. Hunter, what's up, buddy?

SPEAKER_01 1:28

What's up, Austin? I love that intro.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Great song. I see in your scrubs there. Are you are you a proctologist? What is it that you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Uh unlicensed uh after hours. Yeah, sure. Yeah, 100%. Previously licensed pharmacist and now an unlicensed gyno and proctologist.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Hey man. Shitty got shitty gig, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

I fix uh I fix hearing.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Yeah, yeah, I know you do, bud. I we that's good. I could use some hearing fixes. My wife accuses me of being deaf. I accusing her of I accuse her of just not talking loud enough, you know. So it's uh one of those.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

I know you know, but the the the listeners don't know. I don't want to actually think I'm an unlicensed, you know, kind of proc. Uh it would be a be a bad look. We get them coming and going, you know what I'm saying? Like that would be a great dude.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

So important that all right. So this is gonna be uh I think the second or third just shooting the shit, one last hit that we've done. And I had something very interesting get texted to me yesterday. So uh it was actually from a sponsee, uh, funny enough. And it was so it was a podcast, and I'm not gonna say the name of the podcast just to not like get too granular and and specific about it, but it was a podcast of somebody who I know is very anti-12-step recovery, and she had a guy on who was talking about the indoctrination of AA, right? Like basically that that he had his brainwashed and could not stay sober in a 12-step recovery room, and he was going down all these different rabbit holes as to why that was, which I found really interesting because there's a lot of ways that didn't work for me to get sober, and I've never gone on a podcast and spent an entire hour railing against that way of getting sober because I know that there are ways that work for other people that that may or may not work for me. And I was curious, have you seen the anti-AA movement or the anti-12-step recovery movement out there? It's actually pretty prominent on in media right now.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Let me reflective listen for your your own you know benefit, you're you're lagging a little. Uh the audio is is is off on my end, but that may not be an issue. So I was enjoying uh going back and forth in my head, thinking, does he know that he's lagging? Maybe he isn't lagging, I'm lagging. This is a really interesting concept, and I'm going back and forth between the two.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

You're you're good. So this'll this will all wash out in production. It'll be fine. Don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

So to just make sure I got you. You had somebody bring to to your attention that there is this conversation about like basically anti-recovery. There are people that are that are atheistic about 12-step recovery rather than agnostic about it. That they really have a a belief that there is some proof that not doing it works to some degree.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Not necessarily that. So let me go a little bit deeper. So I own a website called Sobriety Talk, and Sobriety Talk is it it lists about 1,600 different podcasts that have to do with all sorts of areas of recovery. Gotcha. Uh, which there's also an area of that which drives a lot of traffic to the site, believe it or not, which is the anti-12-step side of things. And so essentially, what I'm at least gleaming from what I listened to was that it was it was a a there's this podcaster who basically does anti-anti-12-step, but the person that she had on is somebody who it looks like tried 12-step recovery, couldn't get past 60 days or whatever. Uh, and then what I heard him say, and I I didn't go too much further, so I want to I want to preface it by saying that, is I heard him start saying he was looking in the mirror, saying, You're a powerful person and things like that. And and finally he was able to stay sober. But the interesting thing was it was somebody who took an hour, an hour and a half of their day to rally against one particular type of sobriety, which you know, like I tried to get sober in Teen Challenge, um, I tried to get sober in church, right? These things they did not work for a guy like me, but I'm not gonna spend my time going on and talking about why church doesn't work to get sober. Like that's none of my business, you know what I mean? And so I was curious if you haven't seen this.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

I I I think I think that you know, we're we're saying the same thing with different words. Uh when I said atheist about recovery, like somebody believes that they can prove the non-existence of God. That is the traditional term of of atheistic, right? They can prove we, you know, we've read it in uh in in a book that

The Anti-AA Movement

SPEAKER_01 6:31

we're we're familiar with uh in tradition tradition or step two in the 12 and 12, where there is a classification of people that genuinely believe that they can prove the non-existence of God. And yes, I have met people that believe they can prove the the the lack of benefit of a 12-step program where it's cultish, where it doesn't work, it it's it's yada yada yada, right? And they are they genuinely believe that they can prove that doing it is um more harmful than not doing it. And you know, power to them, right? I I think that uh I I think that you can really kind of kill the whole argument with check the record. Check the record. Um we've got a book that says, you know, alcoholics and and addicts have been dying since man first stepped on a grave in church, uh in all sorts of theologically inclined um you know schools of of thought and practice. People with the disease that we've got are dying in our rooms. Um I I'm I love that conversation because uh I think that my experience has forged an opinion that would challenge that line of thinking. And um yeah, I'd love to get into a conversation with that person.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Oh, yeah. Well, so here's you know, an interesting thing, right? And I don't think I've never felt compelled to defend 12-step recovery. I don't think it needs that, nor it's a it's a real personal thing, right? I mean, um, there are aspects of it that I just absolutely adore. They set my my heart on fire, and then there are aspects of it I don't want to do, but I know in the midst of not wanting to do them, those are the ones that are gonna they're gonna bring the most power for me. They're gonna bring the most growth.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Everything 12-step recovery related is is not original. It's it's adopted from something else. It it's only been around for like 90 years.

unknown 8:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

1939. I mean, we're not it's not like we're the pioneers of self-help or or or or you know, uh yeah. I mean, we're we don't we don't have a monopoly on how to recover from uh a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. We we we and and truth be told, if you look at the numbers, I mean the the the fellowship of 12-step recovery um was was roughly two million people like 30 or 40 years ago. And it's still at roughly two to five million people, and and its exposure and out and reach has gone significantly higher than that. Every single courtroom in the United States, for sure, if you have any drug or alcohol-related um you know crime, you're you're encouraged or almost mandated to go to some sort of 12-step program. You know, so the the amount of people that it has reached is far greater than you know, two to five million people, but we still only have, so they say, according to the general service offices, only two to five million participants, which suggests to me that a lot more people have tried it now in 2026 than ever before. Like the numbers of attempts has exponentially grown, but the number of of members has roughly stayed the same for 30 or 40 years. And I think, in my opinion, that's just solely based on the fact that most of the people that suffer problems with alcohol and drugs do not have a disease of the mind and the body that some of us are inclined to have. And it looks the same to society, so they attend the meeting because they have to, but there is, they do not find in 12-step recovery what is is is needed to treat a disease because they don't have it. Simple as that. They don't stay, they don't need to be.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

I'm curious, so I know you know you had mentioned the word atheistic earlier, and I know that there are actually groups, never been to one, but I think there they exist in our local area here in Orlando that are atheist 12-step recovery groups, right? Like, you know, just kind of straight up, which is interesting uh to me that that would be kind of the the commonality of the bond. And and I think well, I'm curious what you think about that. I'm curious if you've had any experience with that.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Are we switching gears to the groups of people that are like anti-God? Well, or just anti-cross up recovery.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

No, we're we're kind of switching gears to the anti-God people here for a second.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

Yeah, I mean, um anti-god requires faith. I think the irony is is laughable. Uh it's it's actually hilarious. In order to be atheist, you have to have a significantly higher degree of faith than somebody that just is willing to use a three-letter

Atheism Requires More Faith

SPEAKER_01 12:02

word.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

We were having a second-step discussion last night, and I didn't have an opportunity to share, but I remember in the second step discussion, a guy shared about what he struggled with was his con he kept trying to figure out the concept of a higher power, not realizing that the conception really doesn't matter much. Uh, in that as soon as he stopped trying to define it, he could move forward. And I think that's kind of interesting in that I I remember, you know, my wife Haley, she used to well, the inverse of that, real quick, is that as soon as you define anything, you limit it. Right. I mean, so here's where I was going. Haley, Haley's dad passed away with brain cancer in 2018. It was really, really bad, really sudden. Oh, and she'll she'll be in our backyard and she'll see cardinals fly up and she'll say, Oh, there's my dad, right? You know, and uh, and I used to be like, that is some bullshit, that's a bird. But you know what? She's living in a world where her dad's participating in her life, and and whether I can prove that it's true or not doesn't matter to the experience that she's having, and I think that that's true for uh all of us because I you know we we are starting to learn a lot about the quantum world, right? In the quantum world where a particle exists in infinite possibilities until it's observed and then it chooses a single path, and like that's the things that we know now, right? It it's further than the mind, then my mind can comprehend. And so anything that we're putting on the divine or a higher power is really just an adaptation to allow our brains to you know anthropomorphize something that really is not understandable by our you know, infinity, like no beginning and no end is not understandable by by my way of thinking, anyhow. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 14:13

I mean, I I love how you how you described Haley's experience. What a what a healthy perspective, you know. So just to acknowledge that, um, first and foremost, it's uh for anybody that's listening that's in a relationship, what a what a what a cheat code. Um their reality, their perception is their reality, and their reality is yours. If you share a roof with them, you know, strap in. And and I and I think to the the meeting conversation, much can be that's said to the same effect. It is a step two, particularly step two, is more about an unbelief or a a deprogramming, in my opinion, than it is a reprogramming. I have to get rid of this idea that I know I have to change my mind. And and all the the hope in step two, the principle of of of the of the the second step in all 12-step recovery programs is hope. I hope that changing my mind is the answer or it it works. I have not, it's the only thing I haven't been willing to do my up until this point in my life. I'm going to just drink liquor, I'm gonna just do cocaine, I'm gonna just eat a couple grams of mushrooms today. I'm I'm only gonna I'm only gonna do an eight ball before lunch, right? Like these are all ideas that I am committed to exercising, participating in. My beliefs have always affected my behavior. Um, the problem is that I am completely um I'm a victim to my beliefs, and and they are unanchored to everything of value. My, you know, and and I had a teacher tell me uh early on in recovery that that we don't care. John said it last night, we don't care what you believe. We really don't give a shit what you believe. We definitely don't care what you don't believe. And how many conversations have you had with somebody before or after a meeting, or even even hearing the share? Somebody is committed to telling you what they don't believe in. Can you think of anything more useless than what you don't believe in? I don't give a shit about what you believe. I'm too damn selfish to worry about what you believe. And I sure as hell I'm not gonna put any stock and trade in what you don't believe. I apply that to my own life, change the perspective, and look through a different lens and look at how I lived my life prior to recovery. I was 100% committed to acting as a guy would act if he believed what I believed until I changed my belief. I changed my belief right after two or three lines. I changed my beliefs right after three or four drinks. I don't need to pay rent, I don't need to go home, I don't need to do this, I don't need to do that. I can drive better with one eye than most people can with two, you know, and I'm just just follow the line. Um, you know, I my beliefs have never really been of any significant value because I'm of the willingness or inability I have to staying true to them. And so when I get into a 12-step program of recovery, whether it's a meeting of dedicated to the non-existence of God or a meeting dedicated to just old school traditional recovery, once I get to step two, I am simply asked to change my mind and to maintain a willingness to have it changed based on the evidence of my life. That, in my opinion, is

Step 2: Word for Word

SPEAKER_01 18:10

step two. It says we the the step is one of the most misread things in in recovery. Next time you hear how it works, they're gonna screw up two things. Step two, came to believe in a power greater than myself, and then step twelve having had a spiritual awakening um as a result. That's not what they say, right? Came to believe that a power, not in, that a power could restore me to sanity, and step twelve having had a spiritual awakening as the not a the result. We have one result, and that is a spiritual awakening or spiritual experience. Some of some people have different um um, you know, some are educational, some are some are sudden and profound. Came to believe that a power, this is why I think Bill wrote it that way. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity, doesn't require any real belief. It requires an unbelief. I don't have to believe in a power in order to move forward because my beliefs limit and and and and and hurt me more than they help me. They don't really have my behavior, is what is required in step two. My behavior needs to change. I need to behave in such a way that a power exists and I'm not it. And if I can get there, then I can actually have an experience in the third step. I can I can find a willingness to write in four and tell the truth in five and and look at what is really the handicap in my life in six and seven, and it ain't them. If I'm not the problem, there is no solution, brother. And and and then there's an enthusiasm about making the amends. God, I couldn't wait to get in front of people, not for the reasons that a lot of my sponsees have, but um I had an internal experience with step two, step one, part B, and step two. It was an experience so profound that for the next several years into my recovery, I was convinced that step two was a singular event. It took me to almost suicidal levels and depths in my recovery at almost 10 years, 10 years sober to find myself more self-reliant and further from God than I had been since the day I walked into a rehab. And uh, and that was a reality check. And in that moment, I came to I was faced, my ego had to be surrendered to the reality of my powerlessness and and and inability to produce good results. I I hit I hit a bottom at 10 years sober that I didn't hit when I was getting a sobriety date. Yeah, and it was that it was that step to experience that it is well, let me rephrase. It was that step to principle that this is not a singular event. This is a way of life, it is a design for living, it is a perspective on reality that aligns with what is going on in everyone else's world. So probably more of an answer.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

I was taking notes as you were talking there because some things were were coming up for me.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

What what what you well?

SPEAKER_00 21:58

I'm gonna tell you. So we know we know a lot of things about the brain today that maybe we didn't know back in the 30s.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Like, for instance, I love when you talk about this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Yeah, take us down a rabbit hole. Let's go down the rabbit hole. When when we have an experience mixed with an intense emotion, kind of like I had this morning, which maybe we'll get into, um, the brain digs out these neuropathways. And when when pain is experienced, it it tries to associate a cause, right? So, for instance, if I I don't know, put my hand on a stove, my brain goes, What burned you? It was the stove. Okay, anytime we see a hot stove, we're gonna feel some fear as a as a preservation mechanism. But in alcoholics and addicts, what happens is because we have, in my experience, trouble differentiating the true from the false, meaning I don't necessarily see the facts of the world. I see the emotion I'm experiencing based on, you know, the input my eyes are giving me. And then it's distorting my reality. And so I'm picking up pain in all sorts of different places, and my brain is associating all these different things with pain. All right. So when we come in here and we first get sober, I'm scared. I'm scared constantly. People I don't know, fear. You know what I mean? Um, somebody looking at me too closely, fear. I can't let you see me, right? There's and uh what a lot of these constitute, at least in the the vernacular that we would use, is old ideas. They're old ideas, right? They're ideas that I believe are true based on past experience that maybe elephant beliefs exactly that once I'm proven wrong, then I then we can correct them. And I think what I heard you saying is step two is many small experiences of a correction of old ideas that are not just simply not true. And there are some beliefs though, or at least in my life, there are some things that I can't get on board with a higher power if these things don't exist. Like, for instance, one of the things that I have to roll with is that the universe is always working out for good, that it's it's not a it's not a random crapshoot that that what I put out I get back, right? That that I've got a I've in the top of page 63, right? If we keep close to God, perform his work well, he'll provide what we need. That's kind of ubiquitous amongst all religions, is they've got that in some form or fashion.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

And so whether it is we're getting proven wrong and changing our old ideas, or whether it's Haley's dad showing up in a cardinal, the truth in my experiences, none of that shit matters. If I right, whether it's true or not is irrelevant. If I walk in the room dying of alcoholism, smoking uncontrollable amounts of crack, and you guys are all wearing a green hat, and you said, Hey, dude, no, we're all staying sober because of the green hat. And I go, Well, you're uh retarded. Uh, and uh, but but am I gonna argue that it's the hat, or am I gonna see the group that's all staying sober and just put that goddamn hat on, dude?

SPEAKER_01 25:07

It's a willingness to just change my mind. Sandy used to say that all the time. AA is in three words.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Change my mind. Change my mind. That's it.

Austin's Morning Confession

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Very interesting. So that being said, I think I do want to I think I want to segue that a little bit if I can, because it's it's the same conversation, but I'm gonna I'm gonna let the let the veil down a little bit and share a little bit about what happened this morning, um, because it's still kind of in me emotionally. And by the way, Hunter's my sponsor. Uh, and so we're just gonna have a conversation about this. And I I I won't get too too detailed, but it was something that kind of it my my reaction, my behavior bothered me. And uh, and if there's anything that I've learned, it's that that I can't I can't grow. I don't grow when everything's smooth sailing, I grow when I make mistakes, and that's how old ideas get changed, right? And so here's what was going on. Um, there was an event that happened this morning. Kind of in, you know, I've got a lot of kids, and one of those kids was running around flinging milk on the floor. He he's young. And when I finally caught him, uh I grabbed his milk and he didn't let it go. I was taking the milk from him and he lifted up with it, and then he fell to the ground and he hit his he hit his little nose on the ground, right? It hurt him. And and and I felt instantly just, oh my god, awful. Right. And part of it was, I think my desire to control the situation because a lot of the time mornings are uncontrollable. Um, I think there are probably other things that happened, and that I got in the car and I, you know, I called Hunter uh right away. And I can, but what I witnessed was, you know, I'm not a small guy, right? I don't not, I'm sure people listening know me in person, but I'm not a small guy. And obviously, you know, I have a lot of girls um as daughters and my wife, and and when something like that happens, it kind of like charges the energy of the house. And everyone knew it was an accident, but nevertheless, it was still an accident that that dad caused, you know, and I I I accepted responsibility for it right away when it happened, but I can still it's not shame lingering. If it was, I wouldn't be able to talk to you about it. It's not guilt lingering. I think it's I think it's a sadness that's lingering. Um, and I think it's prompting me to look in an area that maybe I wouldn't generally look in because my kids and my family are my life. Like they are the if I were to tell you anything about myself, I will always tell you about my family because they're the most important thing to me. And I know that we all go through like everyone I know that's sober has had events big or small that they go through. And inevitably, if they you know share truthfully about them, right? They can walk through that stuff and and and grow from it as opposed to it piling on the big old bag of shit that is Austin, you know, or the big old bag of shit that is Hunter or whatever, right? And um, and so I just I I kind of wanted to share that because that was still lingering a little bit with me. Uh and I did a podcast before this one, and I've got one right after this. And so, you know, my hope is a problem shared is a problem halved, like somebody said in the meeting last night.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

So I think I think we I think let's take this, uh, you know, we'll treat this like a conversation, right? Uh I was grabbing coffee for myself and uh my colleague this morning when you called in and had an attorney for the business calling in at the same time. And so it was kind of hectic. You and I didn't really get a whole lot of time, but you know, just to to speak to you and the listeners that are hopefully running this by a sponsor to get you know debriefed, if you will. Uh, this is by no means, shape, or form is uh, you know, blanket sponsorly and and direction, uh, but between you and I, right? You know, now that that's aside for the listeners. My my advice, or well, where I want to go with this is that this is this is a beautiful example between what we just what we identify in four and what we identify in eight. You are clear, clear on your your faults, your part, your your actions. Um, the book uses harms, uh, harms and faults. Your fault is in four. Our our harm is in eight. What

Live Inventory Begins

SPEAKER_01 29:56

you did was you you tried to grab the milk so you didn't have to clean up the freaking house and and uh and and and you you you had to use some force to get it out of his hand. The harm that was caused was that he fell to the floor and hit his nose after you had grabbed the milk and turned your back. Remember you telling me earlier, you you weren't even aware that you that he hit his nose until you saw him crying and blood coming down his beak. And I think that you know, obviously the situation sucks, but what a beautiful description, metaphor to what it is that we're really taking a look at in our in our actions. What I do to cause harm, right, is is inventoried in four. How it affected them and actually caused harm is identified in eight. Those are two totally separate exercises. What I did wrong, how it affected them. And if I stop at just what I did wrong, I I miss, I miss what really matters. I don't an amends is not coming going to somebody and saying, This is what I did. Our book is almost our book is almost clear on what that we're not to do that. We don't go and make an amends and say, hey, this is what I did that that that was wrong. You know, let me detail you what how I screwed up. That's not what we do. What we do is, hey, I have inventory with a sponsor and with God what I did wrong. And what I am clear on is that this

Fault vs Harm Explained

SPEAKER_01 31:45

caused you harm in this way, and um, and then I make an amends for the harm caused. Uh you know what I'm saying? Like, so as it relates to this, right? That was more for the listeners, just to to to share my experience and point of view on on our program. Um, you already know this because I sponsor you, but I'm I'm curious as to the not shame part, not this or that part, but uh let's take an honest look at what is really going on here. What what it what is affecting you is not that his nose is bloody. What's affecting you is that in your innocence, you caused somebody harm. And watching the footwork and the work that you've put in over the last few years, dude, you're not a guy that hurts people, especially family. So I think what really shook you is that even the most sincere desire to be helpful and protective still caused harm. I think there's something to that. I think there's some depth there that's available for us to dig a little bit into and and and and and even maybe you know, cut you some slack. Um I I know in my life, if I were to put myself in your shoes, I wouldn't be experiencing fear. Um, fear of not being trusted by my wife because she's upset because she sees a kid with a bloody nose, right? Um, fear of not being trusted by my wife to protect, parent, and nurture our children. I would experience, and that's unconscious. That just happens. I have got this gift of just we as human beings, you were talking about the brain earlier. We just go there. And a lot of the time we're not even conscious that that's that's an experience that we're having. Um, I would, I would have experienced a fear, I would have experienced some regret, I would have experienced a lot of concern of confusion rather. How did how did you get a bloody nose? You know, immediately I would go to this idea that I need to defend something because my motives were pure, my intentions were were were were clean, clear, and and somehow still affected somebody in a way that I certainly don't want to affect them. And and so um I I would I would like to hear your thoughts if we were to even pull this apart and really take a look at at the columns. What do you really find? What do you find?

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Well, well, I'll tell you what's coming up as you're talking, in that I I remember being a kid and and actually an adult as well. And in the midst of you know, self-centeredness, I'm not even considering other people. And so I always had this belief in the back of my head that it was almost like I was dancing with other people and I kept stepping on their toes, but all I really wanted to do was dance. I didn't mean to step on their toes, but the truth was what was happening is I was just not considering others. That was at the end of the day, that was what was happening in self-centeredness. That's not really what's happening today necessarily, but in the midst of like, let's take a morning, for example. And for anyone listening, I have five kids. Two of them are actually not there, though. So there was only three uh my 15-year-old, my one-year-old, my three-year-old. And mornings are a little bit hectic. And I, if I'm looking at my own self-centered part, it's that I desired it to be more peaceful this morning, um, for my sake, because I wanted a peaceful morning. I wanted to be able to get out of the house on time, I wanted, you know, whatever. Um, and so I think if I were to really break that down, where where I was selfish is I wanted to control the situation because I wanted to play God and make sure that it was peaceful instead of um instead of just letting things happen the way that I know they happen with kids. What I should have done.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Well, hold on, stay there for just a sec. How you were selfish, or you you just identify where where you were selfish. How are you self-seeking in that?

SPEAKER_00 35:59

Well, define where when you say self-seeking, what do you mean? So that I I have my own definition and we can merge them.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

I'll let you interpret it into your own definition with with what make what makes sense for

Selfish vs Self-Seeking

SPEAKER_01 36:10

me. Selfish is how I act when I show up to the party with a pocket full of cocaine. Self-seeking is how I act when I show up with empty pockets.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Yeah, yeah, I got you. It's I'm a that's a great way of putting it. My what I've always rolled with with self-seeking is an action I take based on some form of fear that is beneficial to me and me alone, right? That's would be my definition. Yeah, and so I'm placing expectations on my environment.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Not how I like when I do things, I don't do things selfishly, I don't do to you um like my like kids. My sponsor says, kids don't do uh thing the things that they do to you, they do the things that they do with no thought of you. That that is selfish to the core. I'm not even capable of thinking about how it may or may not affect you.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Well, the children aren't their prefrontal cortex is not developed in any way, and so I mean ours isn't either. Well, it is, unless you're under 25. But so, all right. So that the selfish side, we talked about that. The self-seeking side, my actions were I was going to control the situation to get the result that I thought we should have. Um, the fear I think underlying that. Well, let's let we'll talk about dishonesty here. I think that the dishonest thoughts, which is really what was going on, is um I'm not gonna be yeah, I'm not gonna be okay with a crazy morning. Um, if I don't do something, it's all gonna get out of control. Here, here's another one. If he slings milk on that couch, Haley's gonna lose her mind. Like these are you know, these are all unconscious, right? But looking in retrospect, I can see how they might have occurred. Um but the fear in the midst of it, like the feeling I had when it happened was so far detached from the way that I view myself in reality. It was like, whoa, what just happened here? You know, I haven't had that experience ever. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

So I know this is kind of a we place ourselves in positions to be hurt, you know, uh well intended, clean motives, and and and somehow my my ability to manage my my life and those around me that that affects me, but it's still managing my life. It controlling people that are in close proximity to me is is an effort to control my life. And a lot of people detach the two. Well, but it it is the same, it's driven from the same place. And and um, you know, like you, whether my kids are running around with flinging milk all over the place, it's there there is something in me that says, hey, you need to handle this. They're not acting in a way that that is is appropriate. And uh, and because I see it, I just assume responsibility for fixing it. Um that's a delusion. That's a delusion in and of itself that that I am I am required to address this. You know, and also for the listeners, man, what a what a beautiful breakdown of the directions in our book, and our in our literature, word for word. Where do where were we selfish? Self-seeking, dishonest, afraid. And and for for those that that aren't in our sponsorship family or may have picked up on it, but delusion is has three parts. How was what did I what did I say that was completely false? What did I not say that should have been said, and and and and led people to believe that they had all the information there was to have, withholding information intentionally. And then last the delusions that I tell myself. What is the story I tell myself based on no other facts uh or reality? And and so those three elements of of of dishonesty are are critical. And in it out of those those those things, I I am often left with nothing but the truth about about how I'm affected, which is the fear. What am I afraid of? How is it come back to me? What am I not gonna get, or what am I gonna lose? Um, so yeah, for the for any of the listeners, man, that's that's that's gold. You wanna you want to be the least disturbed person in the room, be the most proficient at taking a look at those areas of of how you're experiencing your life. And you will be the least disturbed person in every room you walk in.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

You know, what's interesting is is this is a you know, it was obvious to me that other people were affected by this, but there are a lot of times when people are affected my by my behavior that I don't have really any knowledge of, right? Like I try and be, you know, like when we walk into suspects, right? I try and be, you know, a there you are person. Oh my god, I'm so excited to see you to everyone that I see. Right. Because I hope to affect them in that way. But I I know that like if I get, for instance, not to pivot, but I think it's in the same vein. If I get, you know, I have a lot of things going on at work, right? I have two businesses, three, the book, I'm doing a lot of podcasting. Like, it's just it's just crazy. And it's easy for me to get wrapped up in the productivity of that and look at my phone instead of focusing on my little baby girl, like my one-year-old, for example, who doesn't have any of that context. She's just sitting there and wanting to sing Taylor Swift or, you know, something adorable. When I know that simply the act of me looking at my phone will do something to the nervous system of a child because they're not getting the attention that that they rightly deserve as kids. It actually causes, I don't know where the hell I read this, but I read it somewhere. It causes like a 2.5x rate of acting out and screaming and and various different things. That wasn't the case of what happened this morning. Nobody was looking at their phone. Um, but I can miss so easily, you know, the beauty that's all around me in the pursuit of productivity or to satisfy, you know, maybe some old ideas that I have, that I, as the man of of the family, am required to provide. And if I do not provide in a way that is, you know, sufficient, I haven't met my requirements as a man. That's an old idea that I had from childhood that I was given. All sorts of things like that that can that can pop up. And so it's interesting to think that we're all operating on this level where we can see, heal, or hear, you know, feel, taste, and touch. Um, and we're interacting with one another. But beneath that is just a litany of of various things that are motivating everybody. And uh, you know, I just don't always know how my behavior is gonna affect somebody else. So it's a good reminder. And things like this. And I'm I'll be honest with you, I'm a little afraid to publish this episode, but I'm gonna do it because I know that it, you know, it gives other people permission not to be perfect. Um, but I know that you know, I know that my behavior affects other people, and uh anyhow, I'm glad it was what's the fear in publishing this? It's not it's not a real it's not a see you're not real fear that I wouldn't have brought it up. No, not at all. I don't think it's not a real fear of publishing it, it's just like uh it was kind of like the nervousness of publishing my book. It was like, okay, we've got some truth happening here. Um, but yeah, it if I've learned anything, it's that it's that the truth is the connector. That's that's where in fact I just told a guy last night, I said, dude, don't bring where you're crushing the game to the table. That's not where you're gonna connect with people. Uh it's right, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Brothers and our defects, not our virtues, man.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Right, dude.

SPEAKER_01 44:40

I have I have I have earned more more more friends, more allies,

Brothers in Defects

SPEAKER_01 44:48

more I have I've received more love and all the good stuff that I'm I selfishly want out of a relationship by sharing my brokenness. Yeah, it's been that way. Since day one. Dude, find me somewhere else. Find me another room in the world where you can go get a standing ovation for coming for showing up for your first time or you know, and and and saying, I've ruined everything I've ever tried to touch, you know? Yeah. You don't get that at the PTA meeting, man. The HOA meeting is not looking for somebody to come in there and spill their guts and be like, God man, I'm so glad that guy's my neighbor, you know?

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Yeah. No shit.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

You know, you hang out with us and come in there. Uh oh, dude. You come in there and hang out with us, the uglier, the uglier it is, the the more we like it.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Um you know, but that's not an excuse to go screw it up. But it is there's intimacy built in vulnerability. And there's no vulnerability in me listing all of my accolades to you constantly. There just isn't.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

No, I mean, but but that's that's why we that's why we tell our stories.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Right. But I will tell you, even in my story, the the things I'm doing real time that are off the beam are where the juice is. It's you know, like without calling him out, I'm hoping he'll come on the show. But I remember when I was getting on a rehab and coming back, we had a member of our group that was struggling with, you know, some gambling stuff. And he was sharing it openly in the meeting. Every meeting, I saw it, and he had a lot of years sober, and uh and it it quietly gave me permission to do the same thing, and I think that permission is the feeling of I'm not alone, I don't have to put on a show, I can just be who I am, as imperfect as that is, and that's gonna be okay here because we grow from it, you know. So, dude, good conversation. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

Uh yeah, this was this was good, man. It was a nice redemption from my last one. I was too wrapped up in my head about saying what was uh appropriate

Intimacy Through Vulnerability

SPEAKER_01 47:14

for publication with respects to the traditions, and probably came in a little too long-winded and soft about what was what was real.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

I you know, I didn't get that feeling, and I didn't see anyone else that had that feeling either. So, you know.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

Oh well, uh hey, look, it won't be the first or last time. My uh my my self, my my my my uh ideas and beliefs are are wrong. Self uh what does it say? Uh self-assessment is is often often inadequate.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

A solitary self-appraisal is insufficient. Yeah, dude. All right. Well, we're gonna get the hell out of here. Hey, if you listen to this on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, do me a favor, leave a review, click the little star thing, however it functions there. If you're watching this on YouTube, subscribe to the channel. We'd appreciate it. Leave a comment, uh, tell us what you think about the show, and we are gonna get the hell out of here. Thanks for tuning in, guys. Bye bye.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

See you bye.