UnWRapped
Wound Care UnWRapped is our new weekly podcast dedicated to peeling back the layers of wound care and addressing the questions that too often go unspoken. Each episode explores the evidence, the challenges and the uncomfortable truths behind practice, policy, innovation, education and patient experience.
We bring together a diverse range of voices from across the field (clinicians, researchers, educators, industry leaders, innovators and policy makers) to facilitate honest, insightful and thought- provoking conversations. Guests share their expertise, experiences and perspectives, offering listeners a behind-the-scenes look at the realities of wound care.
Episodes cover a wide spectrum of topics, including patient advocacy, clinical practice, emerging technologies, education and training, economic and policy consideration and more. Our goal is to uncover what’s working, what isn’t, and what needs to change.
UnWRapped
The Problem with "One-Size-Fits-All" Lymphedema Care: A Patient's Journey to Innovation
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Cheryl Pollock, Founder and CEO of ChezLeon, joins Wound Care UnWRapped to share the personal journey that led her to invent DP-Tx™ (Differential Pressure Therapy). After developing lymphoedema following cervical cancer treatment, Cheryl became frustrated by the limitations of conventional management and set out to create a better solution. The result was a patented technology designed to support lymphatic flow and improve quality of life for people living with lymphoedema. In this episode, Cheryl shares her journey from patient to innovator, the challenges of bringing a medical device to market, and why lived experience has an important role in shaping the future of healthcare.
Resources Mentioned
The Australasian Lymphology Association (ALA)
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Welcome to Wundcare Unwrapped, the podcast that peels back the layers of wound care to uncover what's working, what isn't, and what needs to change. So let's unwrap it. Welcome to Wound Care Unwrapped, the podcast that peels back the layers of wound care to uncover what's working, what isn't, and what needs to change. I'm Hayley Ryan, the Director of Wund Rescue, and this podcast is produced in partnership with Learn on the Move. In this episode, I'm joined by Cheryl Pollock, founder and CEO of Ches Leon, cancer survivor and inventor of differential pressure therapy or DBTX. Following treatment from cervical cancer in 2009, Cheryl developed lymphedema and quickly realised that many of the conventional approaches to managing the condition weren't working for her, particularly when it came to comfort, function, and long-term adherence. What started as a personal struggle became a patient-led innovation journey. Through collaboration with clinicians and a determination to find a better way, Cheryl developed a non-compression textile platform designed to support passive lymphatic movement and improve quality of life for people living with edema and lymphatic conditions. Today we're going to unpack the lived experience of lymphedema, the gaps patients face after cancer treatment, why innovations sometimes start with frustration, and how one patient turned her challenge into a solution now being explored across lymphedema, oncology, rehabilitation, post-surgical recovery, and trauma-related edema. So let's unwrap it. Hi Cheryl, welcome. It's so great to have you on Womb Care Unwrapped. Thank you, Hammy, and it's great to be here. Oh well, we're actually really excited to have you on the show. And look, before we jump into our formal questions, I want to ask you, can you take us a little bit on your journey, how all this came about?
SPEAKER_00Well, firstly, let me take you back a little bit in my life because I believe that the experiences that you have through your life play an important role on shaping your life, but also who you are as a whole. So I was raised on a farm with both my parents, they worked endlessly every single day, and I was constantly roped in to work with them. So that work ethic was with me from a very young age. And on the farm, you learn how to problem solve ingenuity and to not accept the status quo. So there's always another way to solve a problem. My dad also taught me something about anatomy by showing me the inner workings of animals as he carved them up on the kitchen table. We were very self-sufficient back then, but that also led me to becoming a vegetarian. So being a hands-on person, I went on to learn mechanical engineering and construction where I worked in that industry for the rest of my career. But as I said, life has a way of reminding you that nothing ever stays the same forever. So in 2009 I was diagnosed with cervical cancer. Back then there wasn't a choice, complete hysterectomy and complete lymph node removal in both my groins. Thankfully, surgical procedures have changed somewhat today, so now they only take or radiate the main drainage lymph nodes as they realize the importance of lymph nodes and the importance role they play in not just draining the body but also in controlling infection. So having all my lymph nodes removed left me at high risk of developing lymphedema in both legs. And that's what started my frustration journey.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I completely understand that. I tell you, Cheryl, one thing I know about farmers, you are absolutely hard workers and you can troubleshoot anything. Anyone listening, if you get a problem at hand, call pharma. I'll troubleshoot for you, absolutely. So look, you've certainly gone on quite the journey, and thank you for unpacking that for us today. Can you take us a little bit further into that? How it affected you physically? Did it stop you from getting up and getting on with your day, and maybe emotionally as well?
SPEAKER_00Well, to start with, lymphedema is one of those conditions that you have to actually learn to live with every single day for the rest of your life. There is no cure. I needed to do something to help stop me from getting what I call tree trunk legs. So initially I started to notice swelling in my pelvic area, then also around my ankles. So of course I asked my oncologist, what could I do? All he said was, just massage it, Cheryl, that's all you can do. He would not recommend any of the current treatments, saying that compression was too hot for our climate and the risk of infection was too high. But when you're in constant pain, you'll do anything. So I tried it. I tried all the recommended compression. Putting them on was hard enough. My son actually helped me, had to help me because trying to get these tight pants on. If you can imagine me jumping up and down, and my son and I trying to reef these things out to get them up over my body, because I had to have them from the tip of my toes to up underneath my breast. So it was quite an experience putting them on, apart from the embarrassment for both of us. And they were uncomfortable, particularly around the stomach area, because there was so much pressure on the stomach. But when I sat down, they also creased behind my knee and in the groin area, digging in, making my condition actually worse, not better. They're also very hot as they are made from thick knitted materials. So I also felt that I had to wear pants over the top of them so that no one knew that I actually had a condition. And you do become aware of people noticing you even unintentionally, but it's hard not to notice even with skin-colored stockings on because they're so thick and it looks like you've got a condition. So there's definitely an emotional aspect to having lymphedema and its associated products, which unfortunately is often overlooked by the clinical guidelines.
SPEAKER_01I'm sure he didn't feel that, he just wanted to help his mum. But I I absolutely understand what you're saying there. You've you've gone through such a significant journey. Now, one of the things that we do on Worm Care Unwrapped is we do a little segment called Clinical Confessions, and you've kind of started with the guidelines there. So I wanted to ask you a question based on your experience or maybe even what you've heard, where do you think healthcare providers, or what do you think healthcare providers could do better from the start of when somebody's diagnosed?
SPEAKER_00So, as a cervical cancer patient, there was not a lot of support for me back then. Breast cancer, there's a lot more support. So there is a lot of people around you that have gone through it because they tend to help each other more. Um, so one of the big issues is that there is a lack of resources and training, particularly around lymphedema itself. Um, this has improved, um, but not significantly enough for the number of patients when you consider that there's something like 20,000 breast cancer patients a year, um, and there's so many more other cancers that um are affected by the lymphatic system. Um, you know, there's just not enough being done at the moment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and we're already talking about 2009, and and I'm already hearing things like, well, they didn't have it back then, and that was 2009, you know, it makes you really quite worried. I'm gonna ask a harder-hitting question here, Cheryl. Was there ever a moment where you felt maybe frustrated, dismissed, um, or like the system wasn't truly understanding what you were going through?
SPEAKER_00Um, so initially, um, because of my particular cancer and not having a lot of support, um, you've put they put drains in your groin area to help drain the lymph fluid off after you've had surgery until your vessels basically close off so that it doesn't drain anymore. With can't breast cancer patients, they're allowed to go home with their drains because they have a breast care nurse come in. I wasn't allowed to go home. So after one week in hospital, they said we've got to pull the drains, which meant that that fluid that wasn't hadn't finished draining off had to have somewhere to go. So that built up in my stomach area basically, which I think was a contributing factor to leading to lymphedema. Um a week later I ended up back in hospital um with a drain down my throat trying to drain it out. The big frustration for me was that I said tell my oncologist I was under gastrosurgeon from the um uh emergency department, he did not speak to my oncologist. So there was a big communication gap there. Um, so understanding what was actually going on in my body was one of the most difficult things. Um yeah, and I it's just through my personal experience now that I've realized that that was the onset of lymphedema, and I know that it builds up in your stomach very easily, and it's much harder to get rid of.
SPEAKER_01So communication let you down in some way there, Cheryl. So I guess if you had a little wisdom that you could give to those healthcare providers listening today, what could they do differently tomorrow that would generally improve the experience for patients?
SPEAKER_00Um, I could say that um, you know, get out of your ego way and talk to each other. Um, but also, I mean, even now it's hard to believe that the hospital system is only putting in an electronic patient um records. So, you know, there's no sharing of records. You know, so from one hospital to the next, you can't get the records. So any treatment that I had had when I went back into hospital wasn't shared with you know my surgeon or anyone else.
SPEAKER_01Okay, Cheryl, so let's think about your day-to-day life now, living with lymphedema. What does that look like?
SPEAKER_00So basically for me it's about management. So I have to manage the lymphedema, I have to manage the fluid buildup, you know, whether it's in my stomach or whether it's in my leg area. Obviously, for me, I wear my product every day. So it keeps it moving around the blockage area. Um, whereas, you know, most unfortunately these days that um what you're told is compress, compress, compress. So they don't actually um know that you've got lymphedema until they can actually measure it with a tape measure. So until it builds up in your legs or your arms, they class you as not having lymphedema. So for me, yes, it's wearing my product every day, which is moving the fluid around my blockage area, and then um it's I dry brush to try and help the lymph um move through my legs just to give it a bit more assistance. And the main thing is exercise. Make sure that you exercise and deep breathe every single day because that's one of the big things that help pull the lymph fluid from your stomach up until your clavicle area so it can be processed out of the body. And I don't mean just um expanding your stomach in and out, I mean expanding your diaphragm in really deep breathing. And when you think about it, people that sit around a lot during the day, you know, whether they basically put on weight is around that stomach area, and it's because they're not deep breathing.
SPEAKER_01That's uh interesting insights. Let's just talk a little bit about the exercise. What exercise are you referring to? Are we talking about going for a jog in the morning? Are we talking about light walking? What what what do you do in your current day?
SPEAKER_00Um, I think for most people it will be working out what is suitable for them. Um, one of the best exercises that I've found is aqua. So getting into the water, because moving through the water, the water actually acts like a massage, like a passive massage that helps the lymph fluid move. So I do a lot of water exercise. I also do run, even though you know some people say you shouldn't run because you've got lymphedur and legs, but you know, it's I um have a hill behind my place, and I it's like a um forest walk in a way, going through it, but I run through it and just getting out in that fresh air and the trees and the birds, and um, that helps to reset my day, so it gives me more of a positive vibe. So I think for individuals, it's an individual thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I guess the message, yeah, and the message you're getting across shell, you've got to keep that limp fluid moving, you've got to get it activated. I I want to break down what does a morning look like? You know, you mentioned the dry brushing. How long does all of this take? Because it seems a lot before you can even get up and get going.
SPEAKER_00If I had compression on, yes, it would be a lot. Um for me of a morning, I just put my underwear on and put my insert inside my underwear, and I'm ready to go. Um, I do my dry brushing at night time, so just before I go to bed, I'll dry brush. Um, and one of the main other main things to do is to moisturize. So you have to look after the skin, don't let it dry out, moisturize it because you know that's where infection gets in. And this is your lymphatic system, is your first line of defense of your immune system, so it's really important that you look after the skin. So, any cuts or anything, make sure you use antiseptic straight away. Don't let any infection set up because that will cause you long-term issues.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, very sound messages coming through there. The skin is the largest organ on our body, it protects everything, and but you're now trying to fight and protect that uh insufficiency you currently have. And so, to any of our listeners, think about those emollients or creams, moisturizers. You know, head down to your pharmacy. What we generally recommend is ask for a pH neutral, nothing with fragrance, look for hermectance, dimethicone. You want all the good ingredients that you're going to get protection on. So, you know, selecting a moisturizer is also just as important, but I I appreciate those words of wisdom. Now, you mentioned an insert that you put into your underwear. What it actually is that? Can you explain to the novices out there or to anyone not understanding what does that mean?
SPEAKER_00Um, so basically, I've developed um differential pressure product. So it's um I'll try and show you. Um, this is like an insert, if you can see that clearly. Um so basically, it um is like a bubble that I've spent a long time on getting the shape and the size and everything, the configuration of it, to ensure that when it's on your body, as you move, it's creating this kind of a massage effect on your body. And so, yeah, that's the insert that I put into my underwear, and so as I just go about my daily activities, it just moves and just keeps that fluid moving.
SPEAKER_01I think uh Cheryl, you're on a winner here, um, and for our audience, where Cheryl's journey has taken her is to see what is currently on the market, trialing everything available and not getting the outcome that somebody living with lymphedema needs. So, Cheryl, you went into production. You thought there's got to be a better way, you wanted to find that difference. So take us through that journey. Tell us what you've come up with and explain to the audience what it is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so um solving my own issue, um, other people started asking me, Well, what are you doing? Can you help me? Because they were equally as frustrated with the conventional products that are out there, and as I said, it's not for everybody. So I started, I got to the point where I thought I just can't keep doing this. The demand is so great that um at that stage I was sewing them up myself on a little sewing machine and everything, it was very hard yaka. So um I had to find a commercial way of doing it, and that led me to this journey of um entrepreneurship, and yeah, but I ended up getting a Commonwealth grant that um I was able to get some engineers to help me to work out how to actually make a scalable production of this, and then yeah, that led me to the journey of actually getting it all produced and putting it on the market.
SPEAKER_01Wow, it's it's pretty impressive. Um, you know, you mentioned there's a lot of people asking you for assistance. We know rough numbers because we don't have any data sets. Is anywhere from 70,000 up in Australia of those living with lymphedema. Now, um, and maybe even more. Uh what are your thoughts, Cheryl, in terms of um how the product works, how you apply it, and what's the name of the product? What have you come up with?
SPEAKER_00So the company is Chesley On, and the product itself is called DP Techs, which is differential pressure technology. Um, and you know, as I said, it creates that differential pressure. So as you're using it, as you have it on your body, it just keeps creating that little massage effect that if you really understand the lymphatic system, then you understand that that is what helps to break it down, break the fluid down, and get it to actually move out of the body. It comes in different forms, so you can have inserts, though. I wear my insert inside my underwear for a breast cancer patient. It's just simply, and this is the breast one, it's just simply worn inside the bra itself because the lymph nodes are affected underneath the arm around. That underarm area, so it goes across the breast and across that area where the lymph nodes have been affected to help encourage the fluid around that actual blockage. And what I found for me is by treating that area around the blockage, it not only helped relieve the pain that was in that area, and it's like when you put it on, it's like your body just relaxes, and you just think you know, suddenly the pain's released because the fluid is starting to move again. When it starts to move from that blockage area, then that allows the rest of the limb to actually start working and start draining naturally.
SPEAKER_01Let me break this down to a simplistic level for anyone that might be listening that might actually be people living with lymphedema. Our traditional compression therapy acts to compress and to provide pressure. Your product, if I have it right and correct me if I'm wrong, Cheryl, does that but also provides through those little bubbles that we can see in the product a massage effect as well to keep that fluid moving.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, it doesn't have to be compressed, and that's one of the big differences with our product. You can wear our product within a normal bra, I just wear it within normal underwear, I don't wear compression at all. So it doesn't have to be compressed, but it can be used with compression as well. And an example of this is a trauma case that we had on the Gold Coast where a young guy went through a horrific car accident and had his leg almost severed in two places, went through significant multiple surgeries, so he had significant swelling and scarring, um, skin grafts as well as pins and different parts of his body to try and reconstruct his leg. Um the compression wasn't um tolerated by him, you know, because they put compression on over his um badly injured leg, which was extremely painful getting it on. And what he found was that there's uh his toes were so swollen to the point where he couldn't feel them anymore. And his um knee would swell up as well because there's nothing moving through the compression. When you compress it, it stops the movement. It's designed to actually push fluid out of that area. So it's not designed to get the fluid moving through that area. So he asked me to help him, and so I developed a couple of wraps for him. So these are just wraps that go around the limb. He wasn't allowed to take his compression off in the hospital because that's their protocol. So consequently, he ended up putting the wraps over the compression. Even with that, it was able to start breaking the fluid up underneath that compression and get it to start moving out of the body. So that was um you know a major breakthrough for him, obviously. But then he underwent another operation where he had a fixation cage on his leg. He didn't want to go through compression again, so he decided to put the wraps inside the cage to help get the swelling down, and hopefully, you know, that wouldn't result in compression afterwards. And yes, it did uh reduce the swelling inside his cage. Twelve months later, he's back at work as a concretor, working long hours on his feet. He does wear Ted stockings during the day just to protect his legs, but when he comes home he puts the wraps on, and he said it's like putting an old friend on. As soon as he puts them on, he gets that familiar tingling in his toes that tells him that the fluid's moving. It's the experiences like that that keep me going.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, we hear it all the time. The success stories are what keep us going. Um, so Cheryl, you've had someone reach out to you and you've given them a success, so you've clearly commercialised the product now. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_00We've commercialised the bra insert for the breast cancer patients. Um, we're still going through trials and things, um, stages of development for the other products because you know you have to go through TGA, so the bra insert is regulated right now, and we have to do our clinical efficacy for the other products to make sure that you know it does what we're saying, and so we're at different stages right now. Um, but yeah, we are working on getting those products out as soon as we can.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you've got the lived experience, you've got others that have reached out to you, not just the one case, many others. So, what's the journey been like moving from patient to founder?
SPEAKER_00It's um certainly a um journey in itself.
SPEAKER_01So, Cheryl, do you think healthcare professionals truly understand the long-term impact of lymphedema?
SPEAKER_00No, I think they're they're starting to understand it more. Um, I think there it's been because there hasn't been a lot of real understanding of what lymphedema is and even the lymphatic system itself. There hasn't been a lot of understanding about that. I know even talking to my oncologist when you know I started talking to him about you know what was happening in my body, and he ended up turning around to me and he said, Cheryl, you know more about the lymphatic system than I'll ever know, and I take it out. It's like, really? You're a medical professional. That's a little concerning. Um, but yeah, they're only starting to really start to understand now the lymphatic system and the vital role that it plays in you know our health. So um understanding the progression of lymphedema and also having the treatments as compression um is used on the swelling itself, it's not used on the cause of the swelling. So until your leg swells up, they don't really put compression on you. So for me, having it around my groin area was like red flag to me, but no one else saw that as a big issue. It's like, well, you haven't got swollen legs, so don't worry about it. I don't want to wait until I've got swollen legs, I want something now, and I think that's where patients themselves have to take on that advocacy in a way to start saying, hang on, this is my body, this is what's happening in my body, what can I do to help treat it now? And clinicians need to listen to that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, if it doesn't feel right, you know your body better than any of us clinicians, speak up. So, what other advice then would you give any person newly diagnosed with lymphedema?
SPEAKER_00Um well, as I mentioned, um they getting to understand and know about the lymphatic system. Um, I do have a lot of information on my website, and hopefully it's fairly straightforward that people can readily understand. Um, because trying to read science books is a bit over most people's head. Um, but get to know your body, feel what is happening in your body and seek products and techniques that you feel comfortable with. Don't just settle for what the therapist tells you, not that you shouldn't listen to them, but your body body and you need to listen to it as well. So, yeah, just learn what works for your body. Exercise, as I said, is one of the main things to help because the lymphatic system doesn't have a pump, it works through muscle movement, so you have to move your body to get that fluid to move through your system. So, exercise is the biggest thing, as I mentioned, deep breathing and of course moisturizing your skin.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, fantastic. Keep it moving, moving, moving, and be an advocate for yourself and don't be shy. Speak up. You know, we might sometimes seem a little scary us clinicians, but speak up. We don't know your true concerns that are you're facing, particularly if you're in a hospital bed or even at home when you are not around clinicians all the time. I think that's very sound advice. So, then what advice, Cheryl, would you give clinicians who might be listening? What could they do differently to make a real difference?
SPEAKER_00Listen to their patients to start with. Um, because if a patient doesn't tolerate a garment or is embarrassed by it, embarrassed by their appearance, they won't adhere to it. So, you know, some patients will agree to wear a product, and when they get home, they realize how difficult it is to put on what they look like, or they may be concerned about how much the treatment is costing them. So think of the patient as a whole, try to see things from their perspective and work with them. Also, by being open to new products, if you really understand how the lymphatic system works, you'll be able to help guide your patients into more self-management, not just treating their swelling, but become be in more of a preventative way so that the patient themselves can take the control of their body.
SPEAKER_01That's really, really good advice. So give the website a plug, Cheryl. How can we get more information? Where do we go?
SPEAKER_00So www.chezleon, so it's C-H-E-Z-L-E-O-N.com.au.
SPEAKER_01Amazing. And we'll certainly put that in the link for this podcast. If you're listening and thinking, I just don't have time to keep up with learning. This one's for you. Learn on the Move gives you short, free clinical modules you can fit into your day on a break, between visits, or whenever it works for you. It's all reviewed by healthcare specialists and covers everything from wound care to aged care and beyond. If you want to check it out, head over to learn on the move.org and sign up. But Sherman, we do a little fun thing at the end of these podcasts. We do what we call a rapid fire where we get to unwrap whether something is true or false. And the thing is, there's no time to elaborate, you have to think quickly, and it's really about having a bit of fun. Are you happy to have a little play? Okay. All right, let's take it away. First question Patients are well prepared for lymphedema after cancer treatment. Lymphedema is well understood by most healthcare professionals. There are enough effective products available for managing lymphedema. False. Patients feel supported long term after cancer treatment ends. False. Living with lymphedema is manageable with the right support. True. The emotional impact of lymphedema is often understood. True. Patients are listened to when they raise concerns. False. There is enough awareness about lymphedema in the community. False. Patients should be more involved in designing healthcare solutions. True. And the lived experience should play a bigger role in innovation.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely true.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, nicely said, Cheryl. Cheryl, you've given us an amazing slot of a discussion around something that isn't looked at enough, something that needs more care and investment in. You've given us your lived experience. You've given us a solution. So please, those that are listening in, head over to Cheryl's website. You will see a wealth of information. I've visited it a few times now, and there's so much information. I'm so looking forward to seeing all of your innovations come to fruition and be commercialised, and we'll certainly drop in your links into the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today, Cheryl.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for having me, and I hope all the listeners out there just take care of your own body, whether you've got lymphedema or not. The lymphatic system is a really important system and you need to understand it. Take care.
SPEAKER_01What a lovely way to wrap it up. Thanks so much, Cheryl. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Woundcare Unwrapped. You can find us on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok at woundrescue PTY LTD. A big thank you to our show partners at Learn on the Move. You can find more about them in our show notes. Now, wound care changes when we start to have better conversations. And that's why we believe it's about healing lives and not just wounds. So tune in for next week's episode of Wound Care Unwrapped.