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The Otago Opportunity
The Otago Opportunity podcast explores local perspectives, ideas, and community initiatives, spotlighting local people and local businesses, and how the Opportunity party's vision within the Otago region will affect you.
Find out more at - www.opportunity.org.nz
Authorised by H.Cargo - secretary@opportunity.org.nz
The Otago Opportunity
The Otago Opportunity - Episode 6 - Civics
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Join host Pauline Moore, Opportunity candidate for Dunedin Dave Bainbridge-Zafar, Psychologist Emily Ware, and her son, a Year 10 High School student in Dunedin, as we discuss teaching Civics at school and dive into how children learn.
Find out more at www.opportunity.org.nz
Authorised by H.Cargo - secretary@opportunity.org.nz
Coming up on the Otago Opportunity this week, we're talking about the teaching of subjects and schools. How much did you learn? And as an adult, do you wish to learn more? This is the Otago Opportunity, a limited series look at the future of our province. I'm your host, Pauline Moore, and in this series, we're taking the policies of the Opportunity Party and moving them out of the Wellington content and into our own backyard here in Dominion. Each week we'll hear from local business owners, students, and families about how a tax reset or citizens' assembly would actually impact their daily lives. It's not about the politics, it's about the future of the place we call home. Welcome to the Otaga Opportunity. It's also part of Opportunity's education policy. Dave, what led to the party specifically including the teaching of civics?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we we want to do quite a few things differently at Opportunity, and one of them is teaching um civics from year six. We want to teach Atheroa New Zealand history. We want to teach Tetheriti and its importance. And we think it's really important for young people to know these things before they start voting at 18. And as it happens, we also support lowering the voting age to 16, but we'll talk about that another time. We think it's really important to teach civics to kids so they can make informed decisions when they go and join the adult world. And you know, full disclosure, today Emily is a psychologist here in Dunedin, but she's also my sister, and Owen is a high school student, he's my nephew, and I thought it would be ideal to hear from them. And Owen, as an expert in what high school students are learning in high school right now, uh, would be a really good person to talk to. So, Owen, you don't learn civics, but you learn social studies at school, right? Yes. So, what sorts of things do you learn in social studies? And what year did you start learning social studies? Did that start in year six or what year?
SPEAKER_01Uh we started learning social studies in year nine, and the first year I think was mostly about geography, a couple bits about the government, and a bit of voting and a couple of other things. And then this year it's just been a bit about more geography, a bit about First World War, and then we've moved on to New Zealand history.
SPEAKER_02So social studies covers history, geography, as well as things like voting and the role of government and that kind of thing. Yes. Okay. So that's interesting. So do you remember what you got taught last year about voting and government? A bit, yes. What what sorts of things do you remember?
SPEAKER_01Um, that there's two different types of voting systems. One is first past the post, and the other one I can't remember, but I kind of remember what they do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And it's something that, you know, as I'm running for parliament, a lot of people ask me, how should I vote? You know, they want to support opportunity, but they get two votes. They get a vote for the for the local electorate and they get a vote for the party. And how does that work? Because obviously different countries do different things. You know, I grew up in the UK, you just get the one vote. Here in New Zealand, you get two. Um, you know, that that's not the kind of thing that we're really teaching our kids. So lots of adults, when they're getting ready to vote, they don't really know the difference between those two votes. And you'll see certain political parties running adverts saying two ticks Labour or two ticks national. What do those two ticks mean? What is the difference? We think it's really important that we teach those things to our students, and because quite often parents don't know the answer either. Um, so Emily is a parent to two children. What what can you teach them about voting and how to vote when they get closer to their first election to vote in?
SPEAKER_04Well, it's it'll depend on the competency of the parents, right? So there'll be a huge range in people's capacity, and therefore what children pick up from that, if it's the parents' responsibility to teach voting, they can only teach what they know and they understand, um, which might not give the children enough information to be informed about the process. So, are we can model to our children what we think and what the process is, and if if we vote, we can show them and take them with us. Absolutely. I think it's really important to do that. Um and talk them through our thought process and our critical thinking ability. That's another thing that I think is really helpful for parents and adults around children to model. Um, often children don't see people, adults making mistakes or talking through their thought process. They just assume that adults know everything and just fully formed ideas. So I think that's really helpful for parents to do. Um, why you want to make certain choices, why you want to vote like this, um, what you think about the government, you can share all of that, absolutely. And children will make their own opinions based off what they know and how you talked about things, not just what you say, but the emotion that comes with it from you as well.
SPEAKER_02And I guess in the run-up to an election, there's a whole lot of misinformation. So how do you yeah, how do you kind of teach your kids, you know, you've got a 15-year-old and a 13-year-old, how do you teach them that critical thinking to be able to spot misinformation?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, for us, we get them to look at the sources of information and have a think about does that information source have a vested interest in a particular outcome, one way or the other? Like, where's that from? Why would they want you to think that? What else could they be thinking? Um, getting them to question that information sources is the main sort of first step to that critical thinking skills.
SPEAKER_02What do you get taught that in school though? And around questioning whether information is true or not?
SPEAKER_01Well, no, but my English teacher talks about it. In what way do they kind of speak about it? I mean a couple of times he's talked about it. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Do you do you think l so sorry Dave, do you think lots of people lots of parents want their children to think the same way as they think and follow their lead?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, probably. I think so. Um but to be fair, I don't see a demographic of people that are blossoming. You know, we see if if you come to see a psychologist, it's usually because you're struggling or there's some sort of difficulty. And the people that we see that are struggling with difficulties in their family dynamics, um, often don't tend to think about getting their child to grow into the best version of whatever they're gonna be. It it's it's they're wanting their child to be a certain way, and there's usually a gap between expectations and reality, and that's where people struggle.
SPEAKER_02And I I guess that's a problem when it comes to teaching civics and and teaching students about what is the Labour Party, what do they stand for, what is the National Party, what do they stand for. Um because there's a danger of indoctrination there. And certainly you talked about parents talking about these things, you know, round the dinner table. But in a lot of families, politics is something you that isn't discussed. Um, potentially a wife may want to vote for one party and a husband may want to vote for a different party, so they don't really talk about it because they don't want to have an argument. Um, so how how would the kids know and understand?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I I think the the way schools could do it and and the way lots of things are done is the same way that doctors should present you information about your health. You know, here are your options, here are the pros and cons of each of the options from the data that we have, and then let you make a best choice or the most informed choice based on that. You know, if schools were to do here are our party options, here are the things for each party, like the pros and cons or what they stand for, and then let people make an informed choice.
SPEAKER_03But what objective information then? Um it's there was a study done apparently in 2009 on Civics that showed a wide gap in knowledge from highest scores to lowest, and no other country had a wider gap than us. And that's quite a long time ago, I guess 2009. But still, there's you know, obviously, a lot of room for improvement because if there's a gap, or you know, wealthy students learn the system while low-income students are left behind as well. That's another issue, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02And it's interesting when you look at the voting statistics for different age groups, that actually um 18 to 20-year-olds vote in really high numbers. It's their first election, they're excited to do it, they vote. Then it drops off massively, and through your 20s and 30s, you're much less likely to vote. And actually, it's not until your late 40s where you reach the same level of um voting turnout, around about 75% as 18-year-olds. And then it gets higher and higher into later life, and over 65s are the biggest voters. And so that's why we're really keen to teach civics to students so that if they get into the habit of voting, they'll keep doing it. But of course, you can vote at 18 at the moment, but there might not be an election when you're 18 or 19, and it might be in your 20s, you've left home before that first election comes up, you don't know where to go. Can you vote by post? Do you need to vote in person? How do you register? Do you need to take ID? What do you need to do? When can you go? Where can you go? All all these things that people don't know unless they're taught it at school or they're shown it by their parents. I mean, election coming up in a few uh months. Are you planning on taking your 15-year-old and 13-year-old to the voting booth and have them stand outside while you go in and cast your secret ballot?
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. But I think what is really important to go alongside that is a discussion about values. Because being informed is is a really important step, but people need to know what is important to them. So, as well as knowing what the parties offer, you need to know what you care about. Um, and that's a really difficult choice if you've never sat down and reflected and thought about what your values are. That's where people adopt family values without questioning it. Um, so that's going to be a really important conversation, I think, for us as a family. What do you value? There's really cool um tests you can do. Um, I think it's Harvard. You might have to check my references later. Um, but there's an online uh values test and things. There's lots that you can do to look at what your values are, um, like easy sort card sorting type activities. Um, and then you can see what aligns with your, you know, with your values, what party fits.
SPEAKER_02Do you think that's the kind of thing that could be taught at school?
SPEAKER_04For sure. For sure. You could easily do that um kind of activity. There would need to be, I think people might be a bit private about what they value. It's quite a personal thing. So it'd have to be thoughtfully introduced. But yeah, absolutely. There's a definite space for that.
SPEAKER_02Well, coming to you, Owen, you know, you're a year ten student, you've got a couple of years left at school. When you're starting out on your own, what sorts of things do you think you'll need to know in terms of how to live independently in your own house on your own?
SPEAKER_01What will you need to know? Um, how to sort paychecks from a job, how to get a job, uh, how to sort bills, how to make sure the bills are being paid, how to make sure I've got enough money apart from bills to be able to afford food to live. Yeah. And yeah, I think that's it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, financial skills, budgeting, that kind of thing. Do you ever get taught anything about Kiwi Saber at school and what it is?
SPEAKER_01No, not yet. I think later in school, I see it till 12, maybe.
SPEAKER_02And you'll you'll have heard your parents talk about Kiwi Saber, so you've got a bit of an idea of what it is, but it's not something that comes up in school.
SPEAKER_01No, it's not something that comes up in school now.
SPEAKER_03Students have been involved in protests and climate action, that sort of thing. So teaching civics can be done in a way that if it's done in a way that matters to them, that's going to be motivating.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, obviously Greta Ehrenberg was a you know school student when she started her climate protest and became a bit of a global icon, and school strikes for climate justice have been a thing all over the world. Um, but I guess that's the other thing to teach in civics. It's not just the voting system and that kind of side of government, but also what government does and how they make laws and how you can influence them. Um you've seen a number of controversial bills passed by this government and lots of submissions being made. There's a few where 99% of public submissions have been opposed to the bill, but it's been passed anyway. Um that's a really important process for people to learn around how to make public submissions on potential new laws and how to uh influence government in terms of speaking to your local MP or those kinds of things. I suppose if you grow up in in Wellington or around Wellington, you might get a school trip to the beehive.
SPEAKER_03Um yes, that's right. I certainly did that. So it's about being connected to the political processes, isn't it? Feeling like you can be part of that rather than you know the opposite disconnection and being disaffected. And yeah, that would seem to be that is that because learning civets at school has just been part of social studies, it's not a compulsory part of the curriculum, is it?
SPEAKER_04I think partly as well, learning's really connected to um curiosity and what you're interested in. And that changes over the course of people's life, which might explain some of these stats that you said earlier about voting at different ages. And you don't know what you you need to know until later, you know. So they might have been taught things, but if it's not connected to something meaningful at the time, it's not retained.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. You've got to want to, you've got to want to know or have a reason to to know it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, exactly. Unless like like with maths, you know, they can teach maths at a certain level at the table with a workbook. But when children actually go out and actually have a look at numbers in supermarkets and add things up that they want to buy, that's when it sticks. You know, when they go to graveyards and look at the numbers and find out how old people were on their headstones and things, that's when it's meaningful for them, that's when it's retained. So you'd have to think about introducing civics in a way that makes it meaningful for children and their learning for it to be retained.
SPEAKER_02So, how how do you do that then? You're you're involved in that in your work. How how do you create those types of programs that stick? Like you said, you know, we all got taught about triangles and stuff and maths at school. I don't know if any of us remember how to work out the hypotenuse of a triangle. Um but how do you how do you make sure those things stick beyond that? Or you know, owing was saying he doesn't really remember what he learned last year in this.
SPEAKER_04You need a lot of repetition to make neural neural pathways. Um, so that's learning something and then applying it across lots of different environments, really. A lot of repetition. Uh, play is really important for learning, doing it again different ways, making it fun. People have to have a connection to it. What's gone really well in some of the um schools that I've worked in are when the kids have had an interest-led project, when they're given a bit more autonomy over it, and they can follow their own curiosity. And they obviously need some structure and support around that, but they're the ones driving it, finding out the information, collating it, what's important to them. That's when it will stick and it goes really well.
SPEAKER_02I know seeing um on American sitcoms and stuff and high school shows, there's often like a model UN type thing that some schools do. It was not something my school ever did. Does your school ever do anything like that, Owen? A model UN type thing where you pretend to be from different countries and learn about negotiating and those kinds of things?
SPEAKER_01No, but we do have like a cultural day where people from different countries set up um a little bit of a market and like stalls and things to learn about each of the different countries, and you go around and you find out different things and yeah.
SPEAKER_02And do you do are you assigned a country to learn about and and represent, or how does that work?
SPEAKER_01No, you just kind of it's like a big whole school assembly, and everyone just goes around and goes to different stores and finds out everything about the different countries. Okay. It's interesting.
SPEAKER_02Sorry, go on, Pauline.
SPEAKER_03I'll just gonna say I think there's quite a few resources that are available if teachers you know want to use them, like a there's a school leavers toolkit, and you know, obviously the electoral commission has resources, um, and um the charitable trust uh generation vote gives workshops on civics that was made up of Otago uni students. So there's obviously things available to use, it's just um whether they're actually taught or used. There's no compulsion, I guess, for that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and you know, going through those teenage years, different students respond differently, right? And it's interesting when I speak to younger voters, some of them are gonna vote Labour because their families always voted Labour, they're a Labor family, that's what we've always done. Whereas others will vote the opposite way of their parents are gonna vote as a kind of rebellion from the parents. I'm gonna vote green because my dad votes act, and that that kind of thing. Um so I guess there's uh a danger maybe with you teach these kinds of things in schools that if the students don't like that teacher, they may kind of reject that information or um go a different route.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, I guess it's maybe more about just providing some sort of framework. I mean, what about social media? Obviously, you know, this is where um kids are going to be picking up a lot of views. And what, Emily, what sort of effect is that gonna have on uh learning worms? Or misinformation, you were talking about that a little earlier. Um, but yeah, echo chambers and the like, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely, and we're still getting back research about you know the longitudinal studies and effects of social media, and it's still all coming in. So I couldn't really give an accurate numbers or data on that. We do know it it has a huge impact on people's well-being. Um, and well-being has a huge impact on what people have a capacity to learn. If you're never taught to question anything, then you don't. So those critical critical learning skills are critical. Absolutely. And there's also critical windows in people's learning as well, before they get cognitively set. So we know that there's some um, there's a lot of what's called synaptic pruning, which sounds really cool, but it's it's in the teenage years, your brain basically gets rid of pathways and information it doesn't think it's going to need. Um, and if you never learn a musical instrument and your brain's like, okay, we don't need that pathway, it gets rid of it and prunes it. So as an adult, it would be super hard to learn something like that. Um, and we know from a lot of studies that happened um with neglected children and things how their brain pruned off a lot of pathways, so they never learned um to speak fluently. So there's all sorts Of learning and critical thinking windows for children's development that would be really important to teach. So early intervention and teaching about sort of civic responsibility and things that would be really good to do younger.
SPEAKER_02That that pruning of synaptic pathways, what sort of age does that happen, or does that happen throughout?
SPEAKER_04It does happen throughout, but there are um research windows for different skills. So there's one. There's obviously wiggle room, everybody's different. Um, but around eight years old, there's a big one for language. There's a lot of pruning that happens, and then in the teenage years, there's a lot of pruning again that happens then. So most people are sort of cognitively set as they come into their 18, early adulthoods. Your brain is is sort of fully formed, your frontal lobe, your reasoning, all your sensible things around sort of 25, late 20s. Really, later for men, which makes sense, really.
SPEAKER_03So going back to learning civics, you're saying like learning little and often throughout throughout those learning years at school is probably a good way to go.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it it what you said about autonomy actually was really important in that they need children need to know that they can influence things and they matter and their opinions matter and their actions matter. If they feel that they matter and they've got some control over voting and the country and the future that they're going to be in, then it's going to be more important to them and meaningful to them. And they're more likely to learn and retain that information.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and they'll vote they'll value value it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. There's a lot of children out there that don't feel that they have control, that don't feel that they matter. And they're that they're the ones that would struggle to retain or learn that information because it doesn't mean anything to them.
SPEAKER_02And and like you said, voting is is the ultimate, you know, I matter that you get to choose the direction of the country. And um, you know, there's an old saying, isn't there no um no taxation without representation? Uh Owen is paying tax whenever he goes to buy whatever you go and buy, your magic the gathering cards and stuff, you're paying GST on those, you're paying a 15% tax every time you buy those to the government. Um, but you don't get a say on what the government does with your money. You're still giving them money. Uh it's only when you vote that you get a say on what the government does. Uh, and that's I think a really important thing for young people to realise is that they are funding the government, you are paying tax. If you get a part-time job next year when you're 16, you're gonna pay tax on your paycheck. Like I said, every time you buy anything, you're paying tax to the government. What do you want them to do with your money? How would you decide what you think is more important for them to spend money on?
SPEAKER_01I don't really know what I would just I well I can't decide until like after I've already given them a ton of money, then I can decide and still give them money. Well, I don't really I've just lost a ton of money for doing nothing. You didn't know we were paying taxes the whole time. Yeah, no, I'm paying taxes, it's just it's annoying, but like I get I just have to deal with it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, then we all we do have to deal with it, you're right. It is a big realization though when you do get your very first paycheck and you see that it's not all there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think everyone has that first paycheck of I've worked out done this many hours, I get paid this much per hour, my paycheck is gonna be this, and it's pay why you person has got all my money.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's it, and that's the start of maybe being a little bit more interested. Let's just hear from um Alice, another uni student.
SPEAKER_00Hey, I'm Alice. I live out in Northeast Valley, and I feel like I didn't really learn anything about civics in high school. We probably touched more on um like the geography side of social studies and other countries rather than our own democratic policies. I feel like it would have been really easy or really helpful to learn about SVT and like first past the post and different kinds of voting systems to know what we were getting into, especially later in high school before we could just vote.
SPEAKER_03Um would like to have known a bit more about different voting systems and yeah, how the nuts and bolts of it really, how how they work now that she is um at a voting age. Um, and also talked more about um learning in the more generalized sort of way in within social studies.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's it's such a common question. Obviously, there's an election coming up, and I'm running in it, so I I do end up having this explanation quite a lot. That you know, we have local government and there are two different ways um that local government can do their elections. Here in Dunedin, we have single transferable vote. Um then there's a central government election, and again, it's a different way of voting, uh, and you get two votes, and how can they be used? And people hear these terms like wasted vote, and what does that mean? Um, and your electorate, but your party vote counts for the whole country, but your electorate vote just counts for where you live, and it is quite a confusing system, and it's not at all surprising to me that a lot of people, you know, educated adults that have been voting for many elections, uh, let alone you know, 18, 19-year-olds voting in their first election, don't get how it works and don't get how the system works and how the different voting methods work.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and if someone that you trust explains it to you in a way that makes sense, because you trust that person, you don't question it. You just assume that they're correct. And that's again the spread of misinformation.
SPEAKER_03That's how it works. Well, I think we're at we're actually almost at the end of our allotted time. We'll have to wrap up. Um, thank you, Emily, and thank you, Owen. Really appreciate your time. It's been an interesting conversation. Um, we've certainly learned a lot about maybe what we don't know. Um thanks, Dave.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_03And and thank you to our uh people on the street, caught up with a couple of their opinions. Um, next time on the Otaga Opportunity, we'll be talking about funding for science, research and development. How do we decide what research to fund and why is science so important to our economy? Thanks for listening and join us again.
SPEAKER_02The program was approved by H Cargo, Secretary at Opportunity.org.nz.