Stratospheric Leaders
Welcome to Stratospheric Leaders - the podcast that brings you unfiltered, inspiring conversations with the visionaries shaping capital markets. I'm Georgie Dickins and each episode, I sit down with leaders who don’t just redefine industries - they create them. You’ll hear game-changing strategies, personal stories, and powerful insights from those who have achieved stratospheric success. These are the lessons they don’t teach you at business school. If you’re ready to elevate your game and those around you - you’re in the right place. And if you enjoy hearing from these titans, hit follow.
Stratospheric Leaders
#19 Sara Furber: Inside the Mind of a Visionary Leader
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In this powerful episode of Stratospheric Leaders, Georgie sits down with Sara Furber, CFO and Executive Committee member at Tradeweb - a company valued at close to $27 billion at the time of recording - for a conversation rich with wisdom, clarity, and the kind of career-defining insights we rarely talk about.
We often look at successful leaders and assume their path has been linear. We see the visible tip of the iceberg and miss the invisible layers underneath - the pivots, the doubts, the catalysts, and the moments that change everything. This episode goes beneath the surface. Sara is deeply real, and her advice is practical.
From early dreams of becoming a doctor to leading within one of the world’s most influential fintech companies, Sara’s journey is filled with lessons on ambition, self-belief, risk-taking, and the courage to dream bigger - even when you don’t quite believe in yourself yet.
Interesting areas covered:
• What did little Sara dream of becoming growing up?
• What do your first 30 minutes of the day look like?
• How do you decide what deserves your attention first when pressure lands in your office?
• What have difficult leaders taught you about becoming a good one?
• How do you stay curious when experience could easily make you rigid?
• What does self-doubt still sound like, even at the top?
• How do you prepare yourself before stepping into an important room?
• What would you tell your younger self now?
Her candour, humour and depth make this a must-listen for emerging leaders, seasoned executives, and anyone trying to understand what leadership really looks like when nobody is watching.
Enjoy! ✨
#StratosphericLeaders #Leadership #WomenInLeadership #ExecutiveLeadership #CareerGrowth #CFO #Tradeweb #LeadershipMindset #BusinessLeadership #Mentorship #Resilience #ExecutivePresence #DecisionMaking #LeadershipDevelopment #HighPerformance
For more conversations with extraordinary leaders shaping industries through clarity, courage and influence, subscribe to Stratospheric Leaders.
executive leadership lessons
women in finance leadership
how CFOs think
career ambition advice
leadership resilience
senior leadership communication
building trusted teams
executive decision making
leadership mindset for women
high performance leadership habits
career growth conversations
mentorship in leadership
balancing leadership and family
calm under pressure leadership
how leaders build influence
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
01:26 Sarah Furber’s childhood ambitions
02:06 Why medicine was not the right path
03:24 Ambition and what it really means
05:25 The conversation that changed everything
08:16 Why one mentor changed her career trajectory
10:50 Learning not to over-plan life
12:29 Why leaders are often wrong about the future
15:39 Building a trusted inner circle
18:38 Does leadership feel lonely?
22:23 Are leaders naturally more resilient?
26:06 Ruthless editing and family priorities
30:26 Learning to slow down
33:23 What children reveal about leadership
38:08 Sarah’s leadership style
44:30 Her biggest leadership weakness
47:43 Handling scrutiny in senior roles
51:49 What leadership should teach earlier
55:21 The advice she gives younger leaders
57:28 Sarah’s morning routine
01:04:38 What a better version of Sarah looks like
Show Links
Website - https://www.georgiedickins.com
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/georgiedickins
Audio: Stratospheric Leaders - Sarah Furber Captions
Hi, I'm Georgie Dickens, host of Stratospheric Leaders, the podcast where I get to have inspired conversations with extraordinary leaders from across capital markets. Join me to hear their game-changing strategies, the personal stories and powerful soundbites behind their stratospheric success. Every episode packed with wisdom, insight, and real-world lessons, the stuff they simply don't teach you in business school. If you want to elevate your game and most importantly, those around you, this podcast is for you. Enjoy.
Stratospheric Leaders: Sarah Furber, CFO of TradeWeb
Welcome to an episode of Stratospheric Leaders, where I get to have extraordinary conversations with change makers who are influencing and reshaping the industry in meaningful ways. Today I have the privilege of sitting down with Sarah Ferber, CFO of TradeWeb. This conversation is packed with insights, and it is one you definitely don't want to miss. So, Sarah, I am delighted to welcome you to an episode of Stratospheric Leaders and thank you for hosting me on your offices in this wonderful studio. This is great. I'm so excited that you're here. You finally made it. After the snowstorm, I tell you, I'm not I'm not used to weather like this in the UK. It is We're barely used to it here. But it's uh it's amazing actually how efficient this the city is at moving the snow. It's I'm surprised. It's actually been pretty clear, except for these like small intersections where it's just like muddy puddles. Um that was like my shoes that I'm wearing today, and no practical. Well, look, you are CFO of Trade Web and also on the exec committee, and you are a very senior leader within the industry and an inspiring role model to many. And today I really wanted to dive in and hear more about the lessons that have informed your career. But before we go there, I want to speak about childhood, like where it all started.
01 - She Was Supposed to Be a Doctor
So if we could go back to the mini Sahara, um what did you dream of becoming growing up? Well, both my parents are doctors. Okay. Um and so, as I think with a lot of people who have parents that are both doctors, all of their friends are doctors. And so maybe my dreams were not ambitious, which could be a theme for later. But I think I always envisioned that I would be a doctor. I think they always envisioned that I would be a doctor. And so um, even when I went to school, I went to study biomedical engineering, thinking that that would be my path, and then ultimately that's not where it ended up. But that was originally the plan.
02 - One Sight of Blood Changed Everything
Aaron Powell So where did it all change? Like from that was the plan. Yeah. And then the plan pivoted. What was what was the catalyst? Aaron Powell So I think it's interesting, there's probably like a series of things that make you ultimately come to different decisions. Probably the strongest reason was um I actually worked in my father's office. My my father's a surgeon, and he I was a receptionist in his office, and he would have me come in when some of the nurses were busy to help him, like just, oh, just stand here and hand me things while I'm, you know, doing this and putting stitches in and what have you. And what I realized was like, I really don't love the sight of blood. And I remember, you know, he had someone who had really like damaged their hand with a firecracker. And I I remember him being like, Can you hand me this? And I was like, sure. Can you hand me this? Sure. And then the third one, I was like, I'll be right back. And I remember going to the pantry and like opening the freezer and sticking my head in and being like, I don't know if this is gonna be for me. So that was probably the most, uh, the biggest inflection point in terms of deciding maybe this isn't the right path. Um and I switched from mechanical, from biomedical engineering to mechanical engineering, and then you know, when I graduated, I ultimately started working in finance. Um, and then that just led me to a path like in a different direction. But, you know, probably the biggest pivot was really around that moment of being like, well, I better try some other things because this one might not go so well if I faint in the OR. Yeah. I I'm thinking that is like that was probably a warning sign early on, not the pathway to follow. And when
03 - She Backed Into Success
did your ambition start? Like, I mean, would you, would you, would you consider yourself as ambitious? You know, I I think about that question, um, and that's probably like one of the interesting dynamics. I don't consider myself ambitious in many respects, and I think most people would say, like, oh, I think of you as very ambitious. So there's a a slight difference in what that word can mean to different people. Um I was raised in a way where it was always really important and really valued to care a lot about what you were doing, to do your best. Not to be the best, but to be among the best. If you're gonna do something, do it the right way. Don't like half-ass, I don't know if you can say ass on this, but don't half-ass it, right? Really, like if you're gonna do it, commit. Um, and do it with care and with a lot of attention to detail. And so from our young age, whether it be academically or whether it be working, I always cared a lot about how I was producing. I cared about how I showed up. Um, and I took a lot of pride in what I did, but it was never about arriving or achieving or some some tier that I had this aspiration of like, I want to get here. Yeah. It wasn't that directed. It was just, I I want to be among the best. I'm really motivated around smart people, um, and I want to be respected in that group. And so it's a little bit different, I think, than how a lot of people define ambition. Um, but it's it's been an interesting journey. I've sort of backed into, I think, some of the successes that I've had without overtly planning or really aiming in that direction. Like ironically, I would say many times I was probably aiming like in a much different direction, and people are like, no, no, no, you're aiming too low. But what's interesting there is that quality of care, being around the best, doing your best, that the outcome is these extraordinary roles that you've held. Yes. But it's it's that's been the the probably maybe unintended output the application. Yeah. No, I mean I can think of, I'll give you an example. I remember
04 - "Call Me When You're Pregnant"
I started my career after I graduated in investment banking. I started as an analyst, I worked my way, never went back to business school. I went and became an associate, and then I was a VP. And around those years, I got married. Um and I remember thinking, okay, I'm married and I want to start a family, and gosh, I'm on the road four days a week, I'm up at six, I'm home at ten. This this lifestyle is not one that I, at least at that time, could picture having in the way I wanted to have a family, right? I wanted to be home more, and I just was like struggling to think about how that would all come together. Um, and I remember I went to this woman who was the chief operating officer of banking, a very senior woman, and I said, you know, I think I think I could be the business manager for this group, the banking group that I was in. And she was like, mm-hmm. And I was like, no, I think I'd be really good at it. I think I'm really organized, I think I'm strategic, I think I could, you know, figure out how we run things in the group, but I don't want to be a banker, I don't want to be traveling and client-facing, and I'm trying to figure out, you know, if this would be the right balance for me. And she's like, So wait, tell me again why you don't want to do banking. I was like, well, I really want to start a family. I don't want to travel as much. And I remember she said to me, which by the way, I don't think a man would ever say, like in her in her position, call me when you're pregnant. And until then, let's think about something that you want to do, but you've got to aim much higher. If you want to come here and tell me you want my job, I'll work with you. But no, I'm not gonna let you go into this job because right now you're not being ambitious enough. You're looking at a job that you know you can do. And I want you to think about a job that is something you're not sure you can do. And I remember being like, wait, what are you? Did you just tell me no, I can't? And to call like I just like had my head spinning. But the concept of what she said, which is, no, you need to aim higher, really is like one that I come back to over and over in my career. Because in my mind, and I think we often have this when you're thinking about taking on something new, can I do it today? Right? Can I do it today? And unless I feel like I can do 100% of it today, I'm not sure that I should even aim for that role. Um and that was probably like the first like inkling both of like maybe I wasn't as ambitious as most people thought, or I didn't vision myself that way. Um but ultimately it turned out, you know, to be great advice. And if I fast forward, a lot of things happened in the few years ensuing that. But ultimately, the job I ended up having within maybe two or three years of that conversation was her job. And I hadn't aimed for it, and I caught there kind of sideways. But it like it's an interesting thing when you look backwards and you're like, she made that comment. It kind of redirected me. And actually, ironically, what she said I should aim for was ended up what had happened. But I never would have like put my hat in the ring and been like, oh, this is what I want to do. But isn't it interesting where in life it can be a single conversation that completely we look at the world differently? And isn't it amazing that someone could see a pathway you couldn't see for yourself and believed in you? It's a bit like parents with children. You know, when we tell our children we believe in them, they then like uh they you know they believe in anything is possible. And uh that advice she gave you, I mean, clearly that you know, that left such an imprint and it was such a you know, such a profound, you know, piece of advice that she gave you.
05 - You're Aiming WAY Too Low
I think and I say this now, kind of being in the other part of my career where I feel like I want to put as much energy back into the system in terms of how I motivate people or how I can help them in their careers. But the notion of dreaming bigger, the notion of not focusing on what you don't know how to do, but really recognizing what you do bring to the table, it's I think it's a really hard thing, especially early on in your career, to capture. And when people see it in you and they have this confidence that you don't feel, it it encourages you to take that like jump into the pool. It gives you the support that you need to say, like, oh, and maybe it's not all gonna be balloons and fireworks, but someone's believing in me and it keeps you tethered. Oftentimes it's the catalyst to allow you to kind of make these different jumps. And oftentimes when you look backwards, it's like these moments that led to you taking this jump and this jump leading you into such a different exposure or direction. You know, when you trace it back, it's interesting how you can see those moments really clearly, but in the middle of it or like going through it, you're like, oh, this is just another conversation we're having on a Monday afternoon at four o'clock. But I I do I think it it's it there are, you know, when we look back, there are always moments that have that have shaped us. I agree with that. And and isn't it interesting? I think it's especially with women, we don't dream big enough. We're there's a great um quote, I think it's Rolf Waldo Emerson, he says, I dream my painting, I paint my dream. And when I work with entrepreneurs, they dream big. You know, they are boundless. And and when you say and I and I also think when you talked about that, that that leader, they she wouldn't be saying something if it wasn't true. So I think when people are giving us that that advice, they see the untapped potential. So they're the unlock. Yeah, no, I think that's entirely true. And I think, you know, I I always find there's different There are different people who say different things to you at different points.
06 - She Ended Up in the Job She Refused to Aim For
I remember that conversation with her was just an an unlock for me when she was like, you're not aiming high enough. It it hit me in a way when I was like, wait, I feel like I'm actually really good and I'm I'm I am aiming high. I'm just thinking about all these other things. And the other part of what she said though was, don't try to plan everything out, right? Which was like, Oh, call me when you're pregnant. And I remember being like horrified at that comment, but actually like really laughing about it now. She's like, life doesn't always happen at the pace and the way you think about it. And you kind of think about all these series of glide paths that you're trying to create. And a lot of times as you traverse that course, it doesn't feel like you thought it was. The things that you thought happened won't, you know, necessarily happen that way. And so she also, I think, really opened that aperture for me around, you know, you can kind of take it in the moment. You can take the ball as it comes to you, as opposed to trying to orchestrate everything and be a little bit freer with your choices and therefore, you know, I think take a little bit more risk. I I'm very much like the orchestrator. I remember my coach once saying to me, she said, you try to do A to B, B to C, C to D, just like take A to B, and you say take the next step and the next step will reveal itself. Because you take the next step, you have more data, more information, more experience. Yet you want to see the whole plan, but you're gonna be missing things. Totally. So, but it takes quite a lot of courage to, especially I I love planning, it takes quite a lot of courage to just believe in yourself and trust that things are gonna work out. Yes. Um but I think when we trust, then it's interesting to see what's possible. I suppose the more you exercise that muscle, there's a pattern to being like when I trusted myself, this is what happened as a result. You know what I think of when you say that? Um not only like you're talking about the positive reinforcement in terms of like, okay, now I see the positive effects and I'm gonna do it again. Of course, my brain went to like the counter of that. But
07 - The Career Plan That Was Completely Wrong
one of the other things that I think was a learning for me was sometimes you're just so wrong, right? Like for me personally, sometimes when you you're doing that planning because you've based it on the information you have today or the seat and the life you've lived, you're visioning, like, okay, this is what I want because this is what it'll be like over here. And what ends up happening is for me, I've learned along the way. I'm like, actually, it was so wrong. I'll give you an example. I remember in some of those conversations, you know, probably with that same woman, I remember thinking, I don't know if I want to aim so high. I don't know if I want to aim for your job or be CFO of an organization or have these like really visible leadership roles. Um, and it wasn't because I didn't think I could do it necessarily, but it was around like, I'm just don't know if I'm gonna have all this flexibility. That feels like all of a sudden I'm gonna lose some element of control, which when you're a planner, you like, you know, some element of control. And I won't be able to go home Tuesday at five o'clock when I want to do it. I won't be able to spend time over here because that seat is so visible and the demands for it are so robust. There's just gonna be so much less ability to have control over the way I want to spend my time. At least that was like in my mind the correlation,
08 - More Seniority Means MORE Control? Yes, Really
right? And I'm also like a nerdy CFO, which is like, oh, there's a regression line. Like I get, you know, more responsibility, less control, like boom, straight regression. Um and ironically, for a lot of different reasons, I ended up in like increasingly more visible, more prominent leadership roles. And honestly, like we can we can unpack that. But as I ended up there, I remember having this moment of being like realization. Wait, I was so wrong. I thought I would have so much less control with these very senior roles. And actually, I control so much more. I get to decide when the meeting is, who's gonna work for me. I have better people working for me, I have more leverage, I have just way more opportunity to navigate to create outcomes and time management and this, you know, the priorities that I want. And it was like, you know, in my CFO Nerdland, it was like inversely correlated. Um and so I think for me, it's that recognition of a lot of times you can be bright and you can have like a lot of life experience. But on the forwards, sometimes it's hard to really assess the situation when you haven't been in it. And so, you know, making all these assumptions and thinking because X will happen, Y will happen, you know, you can be really wrong. And that that almost, I think, for me, liberated the dynamic of taking risk. You're like, it could be great, it could not be. You kind of do just have to take it as it comes and then re-evaluate with more information, more time having passed. Um Because you don't know what you don't know. No, you don't. And I and like in my you know world, I was like, there's times where I've been right, but there's times where I've been really wrong. So we're just gonna kind of go with it and reevaluate as we go. Aaron Ross Powell And out of interest,
09 - Who Is Actually in Your Tribe?
do you have an internal board of directors, like people who are your signing boards, your advisors, do you have like a tribe? Um that you and so like who what are the types of people in your tribe? Is it is it work people, is it friends, is it family, and what are the hats that they wear? Aaron Ross Powell It's so interesting. Um when you said internal board of directors, I was like, no, not another board of directors. Um I do have a tribe, and I think, you know, everyone does. I think about um they're different dimensions of the people's advice that I really value. And it ranges. You know, my father, obviously both my parents, but like my father has this, you know, unrelenting you can do anything sort of spirit that he just brings that confidence. And from when I was early, always was like, treated me no differently. It's like there's nothing that's a limit. And I think you kind of bring that, and it's like a really safe grounding mechanism. Only wants the best, right? Like there's no like ulterior motive or anything with someone who's like so close to you in that way.
10 - The Film Producer Who Broke Her Echo Chamber
I think of my husband who's just got a completely different way of engaging with the world, and he's like the storyteller and extroverted, and I'm introverted, and so like sees things just and sees people's motivations and dynamics in a completely different way. And so he's been a great sounding board. I'm like, why would anyone do this? And he's like, oh my God. He's like, let's start at the beginning. Um, I think about one of my closest friends from college who is not in finance at all, right? She's a film producer, and she spends her time doing really creative things with completely different people and how helpful it is to have conversations with her that unpack some of this like small echo chamber that you can easily like grow up in if you spent 25 years in finance in New York, which is basically my career. Um, so those people come to mind like in this element of all the things that are left of the center day-to-day that I live in. And then I think about the handful of people, you know, from the very early points in my career who helped, like that woman give me advice, another very senior leader at the first part of my career at Merrill, all the way to someone like Billy, who's the CEO at TradeWeb, in terms of those are people who have a diverse set of experiences and yet know me really well or see me operate in a way where when you want to engage on a topic, they're already up to speed, right? Like they don't, you don't have to explain yourself or what motivates you or what excites you, but they can see the world from this like really 360 view. And so for me, the combination of those things is like such an important tribe, right? Um, and I like balance, right? From my like, if I always think about the thing I pride myself most on having, it's you know, a real sense of judgment that's not over-rotated in one direction. And I think that that's a reflection of the that tribe that I value that's coming in like all these different categories and not just from one side or another. Because I think and it the reason I asked about the
11 - The Loneliness Nobody Warns You About
tribe, you know, one thing that often comes up in the coaching work I do is where leaders speak to the loneliness that comes with the seat. And I think there's a big difference between being alone and and feeling alone because leaders are not alone, friends, family, they're teams of people around them, and yet there is such a responsibility that comes with the seat. I think the world is moving at a pace, a relentless pace. And so that feeling of isolation, which is where the trust detribe, it's like w we all need places where we can vent let off team. And equally just take the corporate mask off because you know I see leaders who have sometimes, you know, aging parents, children who are going through challenges, and yet when they're in that work seat, there's an expectation that, you know, people see leaders like yourself as sometimes as avatars. And you're human, you're human. You know, you're gonna have days where you move mountains and days where things are more challenging. Yes. I think you're totally right. And I I it's funny, I don't often put myself in that category. Um, but I often say, because I spent a lot of time and I've worked with a lot of different CEOs, I'm like, that's the loneliest seat I've ever seen. Um but I think you're right. I think as a leader there can be times where that's
12 - Build the Avengers, Not Just a Team
true. What's interesting, and and part of this is just the ethos of I think how I make decisions. I love I'm very introverted, right? So if you ask me like I wouldn't know you see, I'm introverted. Okay, but I'm introverted, but people always think I'm extroverted, but I'm I can be very chatty one-on-one. But give me a big room of people. Oh yes. And also it's like, where do you, what do you find like energizing? Right. And so like my I was like, ooh, a warm cup of coffee, it's a little dark, the music's on, and no one's around. I was like, that's super energizing. But it in what's interesting about that is I'm introverted and so I like, I like my alone time. But in a work context around making decisions, I love being around people who know things I don't know. Yeah. Right? I love my team that is better at everything that they do than I do. You call it the Avengers. Yes. I but I live for that, right? I'm like, you know something I don't know? Like, I I'm all in. Like, let me understand. And in a way, I think that that characteristic, that curiosity, that like enjoyment of I don't know. Um, and I'm often putting myself in new situations where I'm like an inch deep and everybody else is like, you know, fathoms deep, allows me to feel like I'm never alone in making tough calls and decisions. Or if I do, I feel like a lot of people's input has been given and I can feel comfortable making the final call because it's informed. Um and so, you know, in some respects I always joke, like the CFO seat, I was like, it's a lot of like decisions that nobody else wants to make, and the shot cloth goes off around a public company before a lot of other shot clocks go off, right? Like you have to make the decision because it's the end of the month, the end of the quarter, and everyone's like, Well, I want to think about that a little bit longer. Like, I can't do that. Deal with what we have. But in a way, I think having that surrounding team and feeling really good about the things that I'm getting from that, including the things that I don't know, it actually has taken any element of loneliness out of the seat. For me, I don't, I actually don't ever feel like that in a work context, which is really, I think, kind of remarkable now that you're pointing it out. But it also it what I hear from you, there's um real confidence and trust in the people you have around you. And I think if you've got that level of confidence and trust, and there's a real learning agility of being comfortable with, I can't be fathoms deep all the time. Sometimes I am an inch of an expert, but like that has to be okay because I know people in my team, you know, are deep. Um
13 - Are Leaders Built Differently?
one of the other things that certainly comes up for me with leaders is, and I was asked this the other day, do I think leaders are more resilient than than and I'll I'll I want to hear your answer before I give uh give mine because I was gonna ask you to go for a bit. Okay, well I'm right. Because you know, companies have operational resiliency strategies and as individuals, and my look my sense is yes, I think the baseline is definitely higher. I think if you are in a leadership seat, um you just look at you know schedules, travel, you talked about decisions, you're having to make decisions with incomplete data, you know, you're having to uh run to tight uh timelines sometimes. And so I think that mental and physical or you physiologically you have to be able to do it. So I think the baseline is higher, and I think the more you exercise that muscle, the stronger it becomes. Um so I don't think everyone I don't think everyone could do a leadership job. I think maybe when fair wins, but certainly if we look at the volatility and everything that's happening now, it takes a certain type of stamina and ability to take, you know, take yourself out of the minutiae, filter out the noise. Yeah. That's a skill. So yeah, what would like what what would be
14 - Snap or Absorb? The Real Resilience Secret
your if someone said to you, do leaders, um do you think they're more resilient than I don't I always hate like comparative things in terms of more or less than anyone else, but I do think to be a really good leader, like to be the kind of leader that I really respect, there is an element of resilience and for me a lack of volatility, right? In terms of how you are able to lead. Like leading is having people follow, it's having people be motivated, it's having people understanding where you're going. And in order to do that most effectively, in my view, the resilience factor is around being able to absorb all these exogenous factors, right? The context switching, the market volatility, the business volatility, the different personalities, the different demands, the time crunches, as you had just like enumerated, but to absorb that chaos in a way and still not lose that even keel, calmness of mind, calmness of interaction. Yeah. To keep your eye, like as you're saying, on the prize. That's the resilience is actually like it's less about endurance, although, like, let's be honest, there's definitely moments of endurance. But it's the resilience in terms of not getting stretched so much that you snap and being able to absorb the shock, digest, and then make the decision. It's it's a it's it's that's the key, I think, around really steady leadership. Yeah. Um, and everyone has different styles about this. Like from my with my team that we just discussed, one of the things I always try to aim for is that calmness and that predictability, right? I always say, like, I don't want to be boring, but I do want to be predictable. Because as a leader, if you can allow the people around you to have a sense of how you think, what you're gonna care about, it allows them so much more independence, right, to make decisions. It's like 80% of the time I know exactly what she's gonna ask me and what she's gonna say. Yeah. And then I know on this 20%, like we might have different views and we're gonna talk about it. And so that's that's another element, you know, around like when I think about what really elevates leadership, because you can you can actually impact a really big group of people with that sort of both calmness and also predictability, as opposed to otherwise it's gotta be a one-on-one interaction because you never know what I'm gonna say, yeah, right, or what I'm gonna do. Yeah, and I I sometimes have this that with individuals they're like, I wonder how that person's gonna show up today, because there's a real lack of consistency. So, you know, good day, bad day. Um and I want to pivot, you know, you have three children. Yes. And we, you know, you you've referenced, you know,
15 - Three Kids, One CFO, Zero Balance
found how do you make all the pieces of your life fit? Oh my god, do they ever fit perfectly? It's like a jigsaw puzzle. No, they don't fit. Um I have three children, uh, two 16-year-old boys and a 14-year-old girl, so they're all in high school. Um, and and a husband and a dog, uh, and obviously a family that I've talked about and lots of friends. I always, and this is so sad, but as a CFO, like I do think about budgets, like even in a domain that includes my personal life, I think about what's important, right? Like in the grand scheme of like what matters to me, my relationships with this set of people, including my children as an example. And then I am very pragmatic in terms of like, okay, if they're the most important thing on my list, can I spend the least amount of time with them relative to all these other things that I'm doing? Yeah, that that doesn't work. Doesn't mean I have to spend the most, but I can't spend, you know, I can't have no hours, I can't have no nights. I need to really make sure that I have the time to to engage with the people that I think are most important. And so when I say like I have a budget, you know, when they were really young, I I had things like, okay, I want to make sure that I'm not out more than three nights in a week for business. I need at least two nights during the week, which I know like I'm gonna be home. And so like you travel for a week to Asia and you're like, oh, there go all five, you know, five or seven nights. But then for the next three weeks, you'd balance it out. Yeah. And so I think about my time around making sure that for the people, for my kids, the things that matter, that over the course of a week or a month, that that budget, that internal budget of where I want my time to look at the end of the month has kind of been hit. And it doesn't, it's not just about quantity, it's about, you know, the quality of what you're doing or the things that you choose to show up for. But for me, who maybe like you has a tendency to say, like, oh, I can do that, I'll do that. It's been like this ruthless editing function. I was like, nope, not gonna like hit the, you know, the target of kind of what I want if I keep saying yes to this. Or if I stay one more hour for that, I'm gonna miss this moment or dinner or you know, chilling up. It it makes you ruthless about editing. Is it really worth me not doing what I said I was important to me over the course of a reasonable period of time? And that for me is like I constantly am adapting. So I'm never making it fit the way I want every day. Yeah. But over a period of time, I feel like I'm making it fit. And then like I think one of the things I've learned to do as I've gotten older is listen to myself a little bit more. Like, you know, I remember talking to probably one of my coaches and she was like, Well, what are you feeling? I'm like, feeling? I mean, I'm thinking. She's like, No, no, no, what are you actually feeling? I'm like, I don't even know what you're talking about. I have like five feelings that I could actually acknowledge. Um but I've learned a little bit that that inner sort of voice of like, hmm, it doesn't feel like you're spending that time or you're connecting that way, or you kind of know what's going on. And allowing myself to say, okay, like let's let's reorient and and make sure that I can, you know, make more room for this. And that can be in a work context too, which is like this isn't going the way I want. Maybe I need to think about spending some different kind of energy or focus on this. But you know, I think every year, every year I kind of think about like what are the things I want to make time for? And they may not be the same. Some things are the same, like my kids are always on the list, but it can change from year to year.
17 - The Superpower of Saying No
Um I love what you said ruthless editing. It wasn't just editing, it's ruthless editing. It's gotta be ruthless. Because and I think there are so many asks of you. And I remember someone saying to me, like, no is a choice, yes is a magnitude of commitment. And before you say yes, kind of exercise the power and the pause. If I'm saying yes to this, what am I saying no to? And no might be dinner with your children, and it it's exercising that level of discernment that's not always easy. Um, you is it Yulid Kip Kipchogi, he's um uh a Kenyan athlete runner, he talks about people taking the vitamin N, which is an a vitamin N, but it's uh a vitamin No, like the power of saying no, not now. And for me, when I look at really like successful leaders, that ruthless editing that you talked about, the power of saying no, you know, saying no is it becomes a superpower. And you know what's interesting? For me, like in the beginning, it was about saying no to something that was like a dinner or an event or a conference. The ruthless editing, and you're hitting on this with your analogy, it it's a little bit different. It's do I have to do this? Does it have to be done right now? Right? That question and allowing yourself to slow down. Um, because a lot of times what's gotten you to the place that you are in your career is like, oh, I can do that really well, and I can do that really quickly, and I can overfunction, overfunction, overfunction. Um and you want the product to be so good, right? Like, because I said I take a lot of pride in my work. But now, as you think about being a leader and all of those demands and also wanting to make room for all the people who you want to keep developing their career, I ask myself now the series of questions of like, how do I slow it down? Do I do I really need to be the one to do this, to show up to this meeting? Who else could do it? And and when when does it really need to come to pass? And just that moment of slowing down enough to ask that question, like the editing, it doesn't feel as ruthless. Maybe it's still as ruthless, but it doesn't feel that way because you're out of that like you know staccato moment and you've taken the the time to say, wait, there's actually like a different aperture
18 - Slow Down to Lead Better
here. I a client's recently shared um an analogy where he talked about as leaders it's about being the seaplane, the surfer, the snorkler, and the scuba diver. And he said there's different, different, you know, different levels at different times, but you if you're scuba diving all the time, then you you're you're kind of in too deep. But he said it's about being that seaplane at times because and it's taking time to be the seaplane because there you get, you see possibilities, you get perspective, you see pathways that you don't see when you're scuba diving because you're you know you're on the seabed. Whereas up there there's more perspective. But that takes really deliberate intention, doesn't it? To say, actually I need to slow down. And we're used to going at pace and often the world rewards pace, but actually there's there's such a gift when you slow down to be very conscious in your decision making rather than just going and and and not everything feeling like an aligned yes. That's a great visual. I mean that's a it's so sparking. Brad Levy. I don't know if you know Brad Levy. It's a really good one. Um and and I think it's it's incredibly on point. Um And it's it's hard to tell when each of those are going to be the most useful perspective to have. But it's really easy to tell when you're only in one of those levels for too long. And also I think it's having the truth tellers around you, whether it's Billy or your husband, to be like, y because sometimes we can't see things that others can see, which is where it is having that, having those relationships. Having a little mirror up to the case. Having a mirror. We all need mirrors. My children are my best mirrors. Oh my gosh. I was gonna ask, we I was gonna ask about feedback later, but uh like what's
19 - When Your Kids Hold the Mirror Up
one thing what's one um piece of again, the reason I say this because I was laughing, my my children the other day said, You've got so many snakes on your forehead. They were talking about my lines. And I was like, no, no, this is just I'm I'm I as we were talking about, I'm saging rather than aging. I'm getting more wise. The lines come with it. But what's one piece of feedback your children have given you that's that's that's caused a bit of a rub? I mean, I I would tell you the slowing down, right? They're um the kids are very articulate. Um and they're very they cut to the chase like really quickly in terms of how they feel about things, and and maybe more so than even certainly more so than the way I grew up, I'd say most of my generation. They're very comfortable articulating exactly how they feel and what they think is happening. So as an example, I can I can kind of go really quickly, like, wait, this needs to get done, this needs to get done, this like, you know, task masking and like organizing. I was like, I have five minutes and we've got to do these like ten things. And they're like, you know, you're just you're really frustrated because XYZ happened, or like Cole did this, or dad did that, and now you're just kind of like task mask and you and they show you that mirror of how you're interacting, right? In those five minutes that you're home, the first five minutes that you get there with them, and they're they're playing it back to you. They're like, I know why you're doing this. It's not judgy. They're not like, oh, you're so bad, mom, like because you're like asking me to do all this stuff, like empty the dishwasher or whatever it is. But they're they're doing something where they're like, hey, recognize this frustration or this moment has caused you to act like this. And so that has been really interesting feedback because they're really like quick to point that out. And for me, it's been a really good catalyst to be like, you know what? You're right. Yeah. And it comes from a good place, isn't it? Yes, and you're like, I can slow down and actually see like this a little bit differently. And also like, you know, like what we were talking about earlier. It's like, okay, how am I feeling about this thing right now? And then therefore, how it's like coloring either what I'm gonna do next or what I'm gonna say next, or you know, how I think about like where we're we're trying to aim. And that notion of taking that beat, it's like it's always reinforced by them. Because I think they're very, you know, the way that they see the world is much more nuanced and layered. You know, they don't have the same, you know, they they have like lots of time commands, but it's not the same, like context switching as much as I think a day in the life, you know, sitting in the offices here are. And so for them, it's just like very natural to see like, hmm, this tempo feels off in this moment. And because it's people who care about us, that I mean, what
20 - Eight Crayons vs 126: Feeling Your Feelings
if my children give me feedback, I mean, I do, I don't always but I'll I'll listen and I'll be like, even if I don't like it, I'd be like, there's a seed of truth there. And it's interesting you talked about feelings because I think when we are corporate athletes, we don't always it's you know, when you coach the team, your feelings, you're like, well, I thought there's only five. Yeah, I I say I have like eight crayons in my Crayola box, but are eight feelings. And like tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands. But our body is always whispering to us, like it can't talk, but it can tell you how you feel about something. Do you feel excited, do you feel anxious? It it it's speaking to us all the time. And if we actually tune in to listen to it, but we're often so disconnected because we're frenetic and moving. And it's a really, I suppose, good call from her to be like, how are you feeling? Because it requires you to go inwards and just check, you know, that self-check-in. Yeah. No, and I think that's I mean, it's totally a very like good cue for me. And even with the kids, I I tease them and I was like, they're so art I hear them talk, whether it has anything to do with me or not. They're so articulate about how they feel about something. Like, and I joke with them, I'm like, oh, you have 64 crayons or 126 crayons in your crayon box. I've never even articulated that feeling. But now that I hear you say it, yeah, it's like it's an interesting insight. So, you know, they they're quick to point things out. But they're also there are moments where you're seeing whether it's your kids or someone else you work with or a friend doing something, acknowledging how they feel, taking that moment, and you're like, oh, wait a minute, that's a good idea, right? Like I can learn from that. And so it's been interesting on that, on that front, I've watched them do a much better job than I think I ever did at that age, and certainly like until recently, even was aware of. I I think one of the things I've certainly learned with emotions is it's maybe more empathetic, the more I've understood emotions, because putting myself into the shoes of others, because it's I can very easily take things personally. Someone's a little bit abrasive, they're direct, and I I might think it's a personal slight, but actually when you understand the range of emotions, you put yourself into the shoes of others, you know, often we don't know what's going on for someone that might be presenting itself in a certain way, and it's not about you. Right. But we can it's almost never about you, right? But we can make it about us, which is uh so I want to ask about
21 - What Leading Actually Looks Like
your leadership. How would you describe your leadership style? Um You know, I talked a little bit about this. My view, my role as a leader is to set a clear vision, be able to articulate it clearly, articulate how I think it's practical that we're gonna get there, and then really to motivate. And the reason I say to motivate, and obviously it depends on like what the size of the team is and what in particular you're focused on, is for me that has the most leverage in the system. Like, how do I encourage you to be the best version of you? How do I morph myself? Some people want tough love, some people need a lot of encouragement, some people want reach assignments, some people want to do things that they know they're gonna do really well. As a leader, I think you're really trying to do that on the biggest scale that you can reach. And so for my style, it's being able to do that really well. And then in your analogy, knowing how to triage where do I need to scuba dive? Right. And so setting that broader leadership vision, being a good communicator, but to really empower the team to make decisions and then get my hands super dirty and go deep and unpack things where it needs it, but not to like over-micromanage anything that's working really well. And so, you know, for me it's it's this duality and like we talked about balance or versatility. Like I like to operate at a high level and be able to explain things that are really complicated at a really high level, but I also like to understand how things work. And so how total, right? Like I was like, I just need to unpack it and organize it, and then I can like walk away from it. Um but as a leader, it's for my team, I think knowing that I'm able to do this so they can go do their thing without me, that if things require more intervention, they want it, or it's not working, or that you know, someone needs their back or like more resource that that I can go all the way in. Yeah. And we can get really deep and we can do that. And I think that ability to do that day in, day out, that trust is built over time. Um, I think that's really important as a leader. Like I I want to be respected and I want to be trusted, um, but I want to earn that. And in some respects, I think you you have to be there for some period of time to do, you know, to really earn that in its full continuum. And I think it goes back to the consistency, it's do what you say, say what you'll do. You know, people that yeah, and I uh to your point, I think, you know, trust, I mean, sometimes I think people give trust and it's yours to lose. But I think a lot a lot of us, you know, many people, it's like you need to demonstrate that that that again, if the vision that actually you believe in it and you know you're on this journey with us. And it is about winning the hearts and minds of people. And I think when you win the hearts and minds, it's amazing at what people will do uh for you when they believe in, you know, they believe in the vision. And so often I well not so often, I sometimes see within organizations not everyone can speak to the vision. And for me, it's like anyone within the organization, from the most senior levels down to the associate analysts, everyone should be able to say this is the direction of the company.
22 - Self Select OUT If This Isn't Your Standard
Yes. And that's you know the responsibility of the the the C-suite and as well as their titles, being the chief repetition officer of you know, reminding people this is the vision, this is how we're gonna execute it. And I think it was uh who was saying the day, BlackRock, they have an all hands every Monday, which everyone in the company is invited to. Um wow. Uh I think it's it's Steve Schwartzman, isn't it, and John Gray, who speak about like they'll they'll speak about maybe stuff that's going on in the markets, but again, talk about the vision. So everyone's got access to a like a base level of information. Everyone shows up for it because no one wants to not be in, you know, not be part of the information flow. No, I think, you know, I think for an organization, having that clear vision, and I think then there's a special next level around having the feeling of a personal connection. I think when leaders can expose enough of like their own personality or the way that they think, where it doesn't feel like a clinical vision, but it feels very genuine. Yeah. Um, and to your point, like if you're you're hearing from a leader once a week, like you know, you can tell, like this is a good week, this is not a great week. Like, you know, there's a familiarity that that breeds. And I think that's an important aspect around how you win hearts and minds, like being vulnerable, but also accessible enough that people feel like they know the real you. And so I find for me that's really compelling, but I think that's an important part too, you know, as you think about really like capturing people's spirit. And I think, like, from the the other thing that I guess I should have said, I set the bar really high. Like, I think in an objective sense, like I al I tell my team, I was like, look, I'm gonna not like mince any words here. Like, I believe in excellence. Like in everything we do, there's gonna be no question we're gonna aim for excellent. Not perfection, but excellence. And so the bar is gonna be high. And if that's not motivating to you, like this isn't the right team to be on. Self spec out. Yeah, because I was like, my happy place is between an A and an A plus. Like everybody knows. I was like, I do plenty of things that are not an A. But that's my happy place, and that's the point. Of, like, how do you win hearts and minds? I was like, I want to be really clear. Like, this is what we're trying to aim for to be best in class. And so, like, this isn't the place to coast and just like come in and kind of like kick the tires and like walk out. That's not, that's not the ethos. And so you kind of get what you say you want, right? And so I think being clear about what you want and then getting the hearts and minds from the people who buy into that, that's, you know, that it's like a little bit of a virtuous circle. But I think that clarity is key. So there's no mismatch of expectations. Like we are AA plus, and that's the level to which we work. And we will have fun, we'll we'll enjoy the journey. Yes. But this is the standard. This is where we're aiming, right? And I always say that in the sense of no one ever feels like they get there every day or on every topic. But it is a North Star of like, okay, I can go left or I can go right. I could do it this way or that way. It sort of elevates, I think, how people make decisions.
23 - The Achilles Heel She Actually Admits To
What would you say is your Achilles heel when it comes to leadership? The thing that you've been challenged by? You know, the impatience or the notion of I can do it, right? Like I can just I can answer that question, I can step in, I like my mind works really quickly and I process information pretty quickly. And so, you know, oh, that's not ready. Like, I'll jump in and I'll do that, or or however, that notion of like overfunctioning and being really quick to say, like, yes, I like volunteer my body on the line for that. And I'd say it's an Achilles heel, it's it's probably was a strength, right, in many walks and still can be a strength in certain moments. But as a leader, one of the things I really focus on is I want people to have enough space to take things on, even if they're not entirely sure that they're gonna do a perfect job on it. Yeah. And I think as a leader, you have to consciously sometimes make that space, right? And like it might take a little bit longer. I may have done it five times, you've only done it one time, but how do we how do I make sure to make that space? It's really important to me, as I told you, my team's really important to me. And so the Achilles heel is just that patience level of like, oh, I want to get it done today, and I want to like you know, check that off the list and I know I can get it done, and I've done it five times, and like it's okay. And and to slow it down, to take the beat, and like when I was telling you earlier, do I really need to do this? Yeah. Is it can I only you is it only uniquely I who can complete this test? And and am I am I taking a slow enough beat that for someone who doesn't want to like raise their hand and make a mistake or volunteer for something if they're not sure, is there a long enough pause, right? Like the figurative pause, that someone feels the space to be like, okay, I can I can take that on and I can I can have that meeting without you. And so I think that's you know something I'm con conscious of and like you know, very focused on recognizing those moments. And I suppose it is recognizing in yourself where you're about to step in. Totally. And it's the catching it to be like, no, actually I need to take people on the journey. And also I suppose it's allowing other people to learn and other people to feel they've got the voice at the table and they're empowered. But I I see this with many leaders, like because again, they're four or five steps ahead. And so it's it's a real life, but I I just have to, I have to just slow it down. Yeah. Because I need other people's, you know, to to learn and you know, and take the space. Yeah, and and you know, a lot of times there's so much that comes out of that that you don't envision, right? Better solution, different uh dialogue because people feel like there's an opportunity to, you know, share or debate a topic. A lot of times as a leader, if you're the first voice in, like you've quashed like five other things that maybe someone would have said and you don't know. Yeah, you don't know. You just don't know. And so, you know, trying to kind of keep that openness so that people have like a very free forum to debate something and then weighing in after, like just that tempo of how that happens. And I suppose you never know and uh where some of the best ideas could come from. No, there are.
24 - Everyone Has a Voice, Not Everyone Gets a Vote
Um with this the with the role that you're in, uh public company, um, everyone has a voice about you, like uh investors, shareholders, the public. Um, but not everyone gets a vote. And yet uh people can say quite unkind things about leaders in today's world. Like how do you deal with I don't I'm gonna use the word scrutiny, and I don't know whether that's the right word, but the scrutiny that comes with the seat because it's it's a very visible role. You know, look, I think some of it is my natural personality. Um I've always wanted to focus on an outcome that I think is right, that I'm behind in terms of like, is this the best thing for the company? Right? Top of the house. Is this the thing that you would do when no one's looking? It like, how do you encourage that ethos? Um and so it's somewhat unemotional in in a lot of respects. It's not about me. It's like, well, this is the seat, and this seat requires that type of engagement where that's the way to have the best decision come out of the seat. So I don't really think much of it is about me. Um, but I think also like I'm pretty focused on like what I can do. And I'm not like I'm not on social media posting, like I'm not looking for a lot of um external validation. I definitely care about collaboration. But for me, most of the things that I think are really important are decisions based on the team here, the information that we have. And a lot of the people that I think have those voices of scrutiny, if I don't think they have like a complete set of facts, I I it's very easy for me to be like, okay, I hear it. If the scrutiny or criticism or that type of dynamic is coming from someone who I think has as much information, that's really different, right? Those are moments where you're like, wait, I've got to take that feedback and really think about it and um use it as something to improve on. Um and I know it's like sometimes it sounds like, oh yeah, I'm sure that's how it is, and then like it feels like not great in the moment. I think there are times where it doesn't feel great, and you kind of have to hear that feedback or get that, you know, um that imprint back to you a couple times. Yeah. Right. From from my seat, oftentimes you're like, okay, well, I don't listen to a lot of the noise because then I'd be over-rotating in multiple directions. But if I feel like I'm getting the same theme, is a pattern. That I'm very quick to be like, wait, that's the not the first time I've heard that. I really want to pay attention to that. And so I think about like, what's the context? What information does that person have? And is there like a theme of that that maybe I've heard before? Those tend to elevate in my mind. But you know, I do think like these seats, they're about the seat. And they're not about the person, they're not about the person. And I think if you've been in finance long enough, you're like, everybody loves you, and like one day I'll be gone and someone else will have this seat. And like people forget really quickly. It's like you're never as like exciting as whatever the success is. It has very little to do with you, and you're never as bad as the failure or the scrutiny either. I think, you know, this world, you see a lot of people come and go. It's much more about, you know, the role, the seat, the moment than it is about anything about me. It reminds me, my my younger son has got a podcast interviewing rugby players, and he interviewed this uh an England former um captain who'd won the World Cup, and and Arthur asked him, you know, how do you cope with the media? And he goes, When people tell me I'm doing well, I take it with a pinch of salt. He said, when people telling me I'm not doing a great job, I take it with a pinch of salt. Unless, to your point, unless there's patterns. If there's a pattern and a theme, well then this is a learning opportunity. There's, you know, maybe something I need to address. But once it's someone, you know, it's outliers, it's like, you know what, I can't, I can't, I can't take delivery of that. So I just have to unsubscribe to those comments like a social media account. I just have to disconnect. Um, what's one thing no one's when you were when you were like, you know, moving from engineering and like knowing what you
25 - The Skill Nobody Taught Her at University
know now, what's one thing no one told you about leadership in the early days that you wish they they wish they that they had? So I was an engineer, right? We talked about that. Um and so I and I started investment banking as an analyst, very quantitative, a lot of Excel spreadsheets. And I always thought of myself as someone like I was the smart person with the substance, right? I'm not, I don't want to sell. Like, I don't, I don't do that. Um and somewhere along the way, you know, you realize as you mature, you're like, oh wait, everything's a little bit of selling. Everything's explaining and persuading. Everything's how you motivate and communicate. Our personal brand, that's the selling of who we are, our value. Or if you're trying to explain a vision, you're persuading someone that not only this is the vision, but this is a credible, thoughtful, the right vision. Right? If you're talking to an investor, you're explaining, like, here's what I think our differentiation is, and here's what we think the investment thesis is. If you're talking to, you know, someone about an organizational change, you're like, here's what I'm seeing as your strengths and your gaps, and here's how we're making that change. Every element is some element of, you know, communicating, but in some like very crude sense, there's an element of selling embedded in it. Influencing. Influencing. And I think as someone who grew up and in like a much more analytical environment and is introverted, I was like, that's not, I don't need that. That's like, no, that's for you. Like you go to the client. I don't need to do that. And somewhere along the way, I was like, oh, I'm actually better at it than I would have thought. And I don't think of it as selling, I think of it as explaining. But I just don't think that in my view of leadership, the how you make someone feel, the how you communicate would have had such a high weighting as it actually does in my experience. It would have been like, okay, here's the what, and there's the how, and it's much more here's the how, and obviously like some what as well. Um but I just like that's another example of something I would have like totally had backwards, you know, 30 years ago. Aaron Powell But I think often at university people teach you the what. They don't teach you about the how, but how you make people feel if we go back to feelings. You know, when you tell a story, you could sell it multiple, you know, sh say it multiple different ways, and but but it's how you, you know, there'll be certain connections and feelings and emotions. So that the how is so critical. And I think often people prepare the agenda, the slide, you know, they don't think, okay, well, what is, you know, what do I want the audience to feel at the end of this? And knowing that, how do I need to be? What are the neat levers I need to flex so people arrive at the dis you know the desired state? Yeah. And I think, look, I think as any human, you're constantly can get better at that. Um, the more types of people you interact with, the more situations you're in. And so it's like this internal learning loop, right? Or it's this internal experiment. You're like, that worked, that didn't work, that worked, that didn't work. Um, but it is, it's really rewarding. And I think, you know, as as a leader, you're leading people. You're not leading robots and widgets. I mean, not yet. Um it's probably the singular most important skill to really try to hone. Yeah, the what and the how. Yeah. Um and what is I I we talked about advice early, like your your mentor gave you some advice. What's one piece of
26 - Let Others Dream Bigger FOR You
uh well, what's a piece of universal advice you give to mentees or you you feel you've given to many people in the past? You know, so it it's different in in a work context, in terms of like a mentee or someone coming in. Like in that context, for me, the single biggest piece of advice I was given and that I try to leave people with is like dream bigger. Talk about what you're interested in and just dream bigger and let other people dream for you. And so the way that manifests is, you know, when you're a few years out of school, you're like, oh, I think I want to do X, because you see someone else doing X, or there's a box on an org chart, or like some function that's listed, some job description. It's something that exists, and you're like, oh, I can see myself doing that. Yeah. Every job that I have had past the age of, you know, the first 10 years of my career was created. It was not a box that existed before I got there, and it probably didn't exist after I got there. It was created based on, oh, you want exposure to this, and you're really good at this, and we have a problem that looks like that, and we're gonna put those together and we're gonna create this opportunity. You can't dream, you can't even dream big enough, right? Because you don't have the visibility or the peripheral vision to do that at different points in your career. And so when I say like, okay, you should dream bigger, but you should let other people dream for you. I mean it's not gonna be a box that exists. If you just talk a little bit about what you want exposure to, the dreams, the things, the opportunities that can come your way can be just way bigger than anything you would put together because everybody around you might have different context. Yeah.
27 - The Secret Sauce of C-Suite Leaders
I I love what you said there. That feels like a chapter of a book, like dream big, but you know, let others dream for you as well. Because there's a duality of it that like both are important. Um I love that. Uh look, one of the questions I often get asked about um when people say you work very closely with C-suite leaders, they always want to know what's the secret source? Like, what are the things? Tell me, what's the secret source? What is the secret source? So I'm gonna ask you. And one of the things, one of the questions, like, what do they do in their mornings? Like, do they get up at 5 a.m.? Do they meditate? Do they exercise? Do they read like Jamie Diamond's known to read like all the papers? When you wake up in the morning, like the first hour of your day, what does that look like? Oh my god, I'm gonna sound like such a boring human. Um So, you know, my day is typically like all pretty frenetic. It's back to back and busy in a work context. And so my morning hour is the time of day where it's just quiet and really grounded in all the things away from external sort of variables and factors that I know start as soon as my day starts. So, you know, I typically wake up at six. I I have a small dog who's like just like the best dopamine hit that you could possibly have. Do you allow them to sleep in your bed? She sleeps like not only does she sleep in my bed, I mean she migrates her way to like six in the morning, her head's like on my pillow, like she's a person. Yeah, I was like, oh, this is so embarrassing. But I wake up, I go downstairs, I make coffee, it's like typically kind of dim or dark out. I put music on. If it's cold, I get the fire going. What music do you play? I play like, you know, I would say like modern folk, it's like kind of quiet, or sometimes I play like classical piano, but like I'll do a wide range. Like I have like a wide range of Motown things. But in the morning in that moment, it's typically quiet. Yeah. And kind of mellow. Um, and the dog sits on my lap, you've got the fire, the music, and like the light's just coming up. There's not a lot of like, you know, other lighting. Um, and I have that cup of coffee. And it's just my time to really feel like that quiet, serene sort of peace. And like sometimes I might read a couple articles, sometimes, you know, I might um read a book. I try not to do a barrage of emails. So like I will wake up, I will triage and be like, is anything like on fire? Yeah. But then I try to put that down and really just have, I'd say, like 45 minutes to an hour of like having a cup of coffee, relaxing, um, and you know, kind of just thinking about like getting them my mental order, like what am I gonna get done for the day? What really, what matters? Um, you know, what else is going on in the evening, what do I want to be home for? But it's like it's my way of sort of organizing, but doing it in a really like gentle, quiet way. And I feel like for me, it's it allows me to kind of build that energy to then just like go out and like. You used the word tethering earlier. It feels like it's a tether. Yeah. And and also like the day takes energy, right? And you're constantly interacting and you're interacting with variables that have nothing to do with what you thought they were gonna be at the beginning of the day, right? It's all just like jump ball, jump ball, new thing, new thing. Um, like just yeah, a little whack-a-mole, but like in a good way. Yeah. And I want to be my best version for other people. And so that's like my hour of like, it's just me and like only my variables. Um and so that's you know, that's the hour. It is
28 - Quick Fire: Books, Mornings and Hard Truths
like I have a very quick fire round. Oh, oh my goodness. So these like single single qu single uh words or short sentences. Um I'm coming up with single words and short sentences. Yes, you are. You are. Um, one lesson your children have learned from you. Uh hard work never goes wasted. I love that. One thing you want to demonstrate so they're a chip off the old block. Hmm. Really taking care to treat everyone really well. Not just the people who are like the CEO of the company, but every level, whether it's the groundsperson, the waitress, you know, someone who's cleaning, like treat everyone with the care that you want to be treated with. Love that. What's on your nightstand? Hmm. A few books. Um, always a glass of water. They're gonna say wine. Yes, no, no wine. Um, but really it's like a few books and and not much else. Favorite book? I just I don't know if it's my favorite book because I have trouble picking, but um I just read The Correspondent, which is I don't know if you've read it, it's a recent book. Very good. Um the main character is like somewhat aloof. Uh and in a and I don't want to give away the book, but she basically writes letters instead of having a lot of like face-to-face interactions. Okay. Um and there was something that I found like really interesting about that character. And and in a weird way, I think, probably because I'm introverted, a little bit of like, oh, I totally get. I don't write letters, but I totally get that mindset um around you know how you really want to take time and interact. That was not very short or that's fine. We're we can rule break. The correspondent. The correspondent. Uh a Netflix series you'd recommend. Oh, goodness. Um Netflix. I gotta come back to that one. Do you know I've just watched Emily in Paris. Have you seen that? Oh, yes. Well, that's a good idea. And I I hadn't I hadn't seen it. Like I I watched two ep uh two series in a weekend when I wasn't well. It's and it but it I mean It's really fun. It's beautiful. So you said Netflix, so well, if we go to streaming, I think we just started sh there's a new season of shrinking, which I find really interesting. Shrinking. Yeah, you gotta I think it's on Apple. Uh one thing your parents would be proud of. Oh, my parents are glorious. They're proud of everything. They're just literally everything. Um You know, I think they're proud of the balance that I've been able to strike in terms of having a career and being really dedicated to the family. My parents prize family, but they both were doctors, including my mom. And so I think they they have a recognition on how hard it is. So balance, being able to balance because it takes constant juggling. It's not just picking. And what was the the lesson you think you learned from them? You know, I think the hard work lesson that hard work um never goes wasted, is my mom saying. And, you know, they both were physicians, they worked so hard uh and relentlessly. And it was I never felt uncared for, but there were times where I was a latchkey kid letting myself in at home. But it was the sense of if you if you want things, if it's good to have goals, but like be willing to put in the hard work for it. Don't be afraid of hard things. Yeah. Um, and so I think I learned that from them. There are things, it's not about just like success or anything, but in any walk, like it's okay for it to be hard. It's okay for you not to get it the first time. But if you put in the effort, there's, and that's why I say they're proud of everything. If you put in the effort, like there's nothing that should be unattainable. Um, that mindset, I think, was really like their immigrant mindset. They're like, you can you can work your way up to anything, get anything, do anything. Um, it's all about the effort you want to put into it. Yeah, I do tell my children hard work is a minimum, like it's a minimum. You know, I won't, if you put in the work, if you don't get the grades that that you have, but like hard work is a minimum. Yeah. But but like my version of hard work and it's my it's funny, it's like hard work never goes gets wasted as my mom's. And then sometimes like I like kind of like tweaked it a little bit. I was like, hard work brings good luck. Like, do you know what I mean? It's like that when preparation leave me, because when the kids are like, oh, I don't want to stay up and do this thing, I'm like, it's gonna bring good luck. But trust me. And look at me, I'm like an example of just having applied myself. Um and last one, like great leaders, um, I think have a philosophy of continuous improvement. Like it's it's that there's always room for incremental
A Slower Version Wins
growth. What does a better version of you this year look like? A slower version. Like really uh slowing down and allowing myself to think about do I need to do it, but not react, making sure to make space for other people. But it's a slower version. Um, not slow with a cane, hopefully, but just that slower version where you really you get to look at that seaplane level before you decide, you know, where you're gonna go screwdive. And how will you know? Like if we're you and I are having a a coffee or a glass of wine next January, how will you know if you succeeded? Like what will what will you be celebrating? I think it's it's not an accomplishment, but it's um it's a pace. You know, I I don't know if you ever played an instrument. I played an instrument um when I was younger and I was having this conversation with someone. There's a flow in music, right? Um, like an adaju, like a slow kind of lyrical movement, think about like a wave in an ocean. And then there's this like staccato dynamic, um, and certain music has that. And so I think, you know, if we were having a glass of wine, it's the energy kind of oozes out, which is that feeling of there's pace, there is room. It's not just like a fast, fast, fast conversation. And and you know that when you're engaging with people, when you're like, okay, great, we had like, you know, a quick wrap-up and now we're done. And you get into that very superficial layer. And then you know when you're having a conversation with someone, and usually it's like when they order the second drink. Um so the second glass of wine, where things unfurl, right, and you have a deeper conversation, um, it's trying to get to that place more frequently. So we'll judge if we get to the second glass of wine. And I think what we put our attention on expands. Yeah. And so when we're focused on achieving certain goals and we're measuring it, and we're, you know, is it working? If it's working, what do I need to double down on? And but equally, if it's not working, you know, where am I getting in my own way? So I'm a strong believer of you know, if we put our minds to something, we'll get to our destination.
29 - Closing Remarks
But look, this has been so insightful. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed having this conversation. Um I've taken many lessons and insights away, so thank you for bringing your help into it. Uh I'm gonna be listening to it back many times over, taking away the key nuggets. So, yeah, thank you for sharing your pleasure. If you want to see the full episode, please do look at Apple and Spotify under Stratospheric Leaders, or go to YouTube where it will be under Georgie Dickens. I hope you enjoyed the fun episode. There are so many great sound bites shared.
