#8 Fabiana Fedeli: The Firm, Fair & Fearless Leader

In this insightful and highly enjoyable episode of Stratospheric Leaders, I sit down with Fabiana Fedeli, Chief Investment Officer, Equities, Multi Asset and Sustainability of M&G Investments. Fabiana leads a global team of 170 people, overseeing more than $70 billion in assets.

We start by going back to where it all started. Born in Rome, Fabiana’s work ethic was already evident at the age of 8, cleaning the leather covers of antique books for a family friend, earning 20 pence per book. Her second official job - ice cream maker, a role still listed in her Italian professions booklet.

Fabiana’s international career started in Tokyo, where she began her career as an equity analyst at ING Barings after completing a Master’s degree at a Japanese university. Her path included time in hedge funds, before moving into leadership roles in asset management.

Fabiana is a leader who balances strength with heart - firm, focused but fair, warm yet uncompromising. She sets a high bar and isn’t afraid to make the tough calls. In this episode, she offers powerful insights on what it truly takes to lead at the top - blending excellence with empathy and great energy.

Key Takeaways:

·      Leading with culture, respect, and pride

·      Knowing your outlets—and using them

·      Sleep as a strategic advantage

·      The pressure of the leadership seat

·      Making tough people decisions

·      Mentorship and the power of a trusted tribe

·      Turning hard feedback into growth

·      Why self-awareness and accountability matter

·      Embracing failure as part of the journey

·      Staying adaptable to stay ahead

Show Links

Website - https://www.georgiedickins.com

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/georgiedickins

YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@GeorgieDickins-q7x

Transcript

0:00

Hi, I'm Georgie Dickens, host of Stratospheric Leaders, the podcast where I get to have inspired conversations with extraordinary leaders from across capital markets. Join me to hear their game-changing strategies, the personal stories and powerful soundbites behind their stratospheric success. Every episode packed with wisdom, insight, and real-world lessons, the stuff they simply don't teach you in business school. If you want to elevate your game and most importantly, elevate those around you, this podcast is for you. You are in for a treat with this episode featuring the fabulous Fabiana Fidel. Now, Fabiana is Chief Investment Officer at MG Investments, covering equities, multi-asset, and sustainability. We covered such a broad range of topics in this conversation. Everything from her first job making ice cream to cleaning library books, all through her up to her career to date. We spoke about sleep being part of our professional armory. How do you cope with the scrutiny of the leadership seat? How do you deal with the pre-bedonna? How do you make tough decisions? And what are the qualities that she looks for in her leaders? It is packed with insight lessons and wisdom. And I encourage you to have a notebook and uh pen ready. I scroll down many notes. I hope you find many sparks of insight in this episode too. Fabiana, I am delighted to welcome you to an episode of Stratospheric Leaders. You and I first met several years ago. And since then, I've worked with you as your executive coach, and you've also been an incredible founding member of Women in Leadership Global. Your career has continued to soar and is be nothing short of inspiring. You are currently CIO of MNG Investments across equities, multi-asset, and sustainability, and your team manages more than $70 billion. You're also on a number of boards, investment committees, and I have been such a huge cheerleader of yours from the sidelines. And I know from our conversations, I always leave with fresh insights, uh, new lessons. And I know the audience are going to take away many of those today. So I am going to dive straight in by asking you what was your first ever job? This is pre the working world, but first ever job. Well, first and foremost, Georgie, thank you for the amazing introduction. You're making me blush. Um, okay, let's go straight into it, as we always do. So, my first ever job, I was eight years old, and I was um cleaning leather covers of antique books for a friend of my mother. I believe I was being paid 20p per book. And I I have this memory of cleaning them with a piece of cloth and some milk. I don't know if that is what you're supposed to do. I might not have really understood what I was using. Um, but that was my first official job. And then my second official job, that was when I was in uh high school, uh, was I actually ice cream maker. And to this date, uh in Italy, we have your everyone has a professions booklet if you have some kind of manual job. And to this date, my profession is ice cream maker for my country. Interesting. Favorite flavor of ice cream? Dark chocolate all the way with whipped cream. Oh, okay. I'm a big dark chocolate uh lover as well. Interestingly, Doug uh Sifu, who's co-founder of Virtu, I did an episode with him recently, and he also was an ice cream maker. So, you know what? There's there's a theme here with global leaders, a background of ice cream makers. And and you talked about eight years old, you know, cleaning library books, and I think 20p back, you know, 30, 30, how many years ago? Maybe well, a number of decades ago. Many years ago. That feels like that was well paid 20p a book. I I was overpaid. What did you dream of becoming back, you know, the younger Fabiana? You know, what where did you see yourself? So this is interesting because I wanted to travel. That was my dream. And the um from a very early, for a very early age, I actually did travel by plane quite a bit. And so I so stewardess um that were doing such an amazing job, but I wanted to be a stewardess. And now I'm thinking, why did I not want to be a captain? It's true. Why did well why did you not want to be a captain? Who knows? I mean, probably I was closer to these wonderful um women at the time. They were all women that I can remember, you know, being always so kind. So that could be one uh reason. And you know, I was born in Italy many, many years ago, where women didn't have certain professions. And whereabouts in Italy were you born? I was born in Rome. Oh, okay. Well, if anyone hasn't been to Rome, I took my parents there many moons ago. And the history there, the Colosseum, the Vatican, I mean, what an extraordinary place to grow up. It was amazing. And um, my husband, however, as he often does, he showed it to me in a different perspective. I so he's Australian, and for the first time I took him to Rome and I took him to see one of my best places, just my favorite places ever, which is the Coliseum. And I'm always amazed how after 2,000 years it can still stand, not totally intact, but you know, I mean, pretty, pretty well. And my husband looked at me and said, Um, what did it all go wrong? In his mind, this thing is half broken. Why did we not repair it? It's missing a point. Did you not tell him? It's 2,000 years old. I tried, I tried, but I did appreciate a different perspective that he offered. Yeah. Yes, I think you to your point, uh, you know, appreciating other people's perspectives is a good thing, even though he may be wrong. And and I I'm curious, you know, I I often think that when we track back over our careers and our lives, not just our careers, actually, our lives, there's probably been advice that's been imparted to us. Some of it's been useful, some of it probably, you know, it'd be better to discount. But when you look back, what's a valuable piece of advice that you've been given and that you still use today? So um, it actually came from my first head of research when I was a research analyst in uh at a time in Tokyo. And I was by far the most junior in the team, and he was always very kind and respectful. And he said, you know, um, no matter how senior you are, always be respectful, even to the youngest team member you have, because at some point they might become your boss. And there's something there about manners as well. I think manners matter, and and and that that's true, isn't it? You never know how things can change. So it's that that level of respect and just being a good human being. Yes, and you know, the the reason that he gave me to this date feels funny. Um, but but the principle of being respectful towards everyone, no matter what the seniority gap is, is to me invaluable. And how has that how has that changed how you've approached things in your career? You know, it has just given me this extra piece of self-awareness that you owe respect to everyone. And that sometimes you're having really bad days and you still have to remember that no one is responsible for those bad days. Well, someone might be responsible, but that doesn't justify you being disres disrespectful. So I am a firm person, so you know I will say what I think. Um, but I always hope and aim at saying it with respect. I love that. And I love what you said that nobody is responsible for your bad days. I remember a taxi driver once, I was like, come on, we, you know, I needed to get, I think it was to Waterloo to go on the US star, and I was getting really frustrated. It looked like I was gonna my train. And he's like, I'm not responsible for you not allowing yourself enough time. And I'm like, damn it. That's it's it's so true. So true, but I was imposing my emotion and annoyance on him. You mentioned Tokyo, and I didn't realize until recently that you speak Japanese. I do, not as well as I used to, um, but I do. I did my master's at a very Japanese university. Uh, this was many, many years ago, and then I stayed in Tokyo to work in uh my first job in the financial industry as an equity analyst at what at the time was ING Behrings. It's I I did a uh I recently did a post on the Japanese football team. This is back a number of years ago. They left, it was after the World Cup final, how they'd left the locker room, they'd you know, they'd they kind of swept the floors, they'd left a thank you note, like everything was spotless. And it it led me when I read that, I read an article about it, you know, exploring um Japanese culture a little bit more in the business world. And we you know, we talked about respect a minute ago, but respect and just that the the attitude was it, I just didn't realize I again it was something I hadn't been privy to. So sort of one thing that I always was so incredibly impressed with was the fact that didn't matter how menial the job, any Japanese person who had that task was doing it with pride and was trying to do it at the best of their abilities. And I think that's a huge lesson in life because sometimes we feel like we're so, you know, superior to what we're asked to do that we shouldn't pay that much attention to it. And there is something about saying, you know what, this is something that is under my responsibility, and so I will do it to the best of my abilities. And it is very much part of the Japanese culture, and I have this incredible admiration for it and for many other things of the Japanese culture. Yeah, you do your job with pride and do it to the best of your abilities. And we're all going to have aspects of our roles that are the more tedious, but you know, they're part and parcel. So that doing it with pride, I think, is a really important lesson to underscore. And when I look at the world today, everything is moving so fast. I think we can agree that we live in a very complex, a very volatile and ambiguous world. And I think there's never been more pressure uh on leaders than there is in today's world. There's that load of responsibility that comes with the seat that you sit in. We all need uh places to decompress, you know, or uh places where we can release the pressure valve. What are your outlets for decompression? Sport. I love swimming, I love skiing. I have started to get more serious um about improving my golf game, which is quite a challenge. So um I still have a lot, a long way to go. Um, but yes, just being outdoors and being active is something that really helps me. And there is one sport in particular that helps me completely, completely forget everything around me, and that's skiing. Because, you know, when you ski, particularly if you are in um, you know, in a location that's a little bit more challenging, you really need to pay attention to where you go. So you can't think about something else. You can't think about work, you can't think about you know other things going on in your life. You have to focus on where you are and what you're doing so that you don't hurt yourself and you enjoy yourself as much as you can. Um, and that really helps me decompress. I I wrote that piece down about what makes you forget everything. And I think there are very few places, spaces where we can forget everything because the world is, you know, we're continually being bombarded with those audible alerts from our phones, messaging, you know, beeps, and um, and there's something there about recognizing, you said the word awareness earlier on, but being aware, what are the what are the places or activities where we can forget about everything? I love long-distance swimming. Um, but when I'm swimming, I am thinking of so many things. And I come out of my swim with so many ideas, but clearly I haven't logged off. Yeah. Yeah, the the the brain, the CPU is still going. Absolutely. And I think it is sometimes also, I again, going back to your word awareness, recognizing that sometimes if we want to ideate, if we want to connect some of the creative dots, then maybe swimming for you is that place to do it because it gives you that breathing space. And I think of swimming as being quite expansive, uh, and we need those places as well, but it's recognizing what are the different, you know, what do we need in that moment and what are the activities that will be enablers for that. Yeah, and you learn it over time, right? And sometimes consciously, you realize you realize it consciously, and sometimes you, you know, it takes a very, very long time to have that uricum moment where you think, oh, really, this is what does that for me. Um, it's a bit funny how all of this works, right? It is, but when we start paying attention to our body, our bottles, body's always signaling to us, it can't, it can't talk to us, but it can whisper, it can give us the vital clues. And when we start paying attention to it, our body, you you talked about nature, our body has so much intelligence in it. And often I think we can find ourselves an autopilot that it's trying to give us the vital clues, but we're not always hearing, feeling them. Yes, that is very true. And for me, one of the things that I realized over time, after many sleepless nights as a university student and eventually as a junior at investment banks, um is that, for example, sleep for me is very important. So I don't function as well if I don't have my minimum of sleep every night. And and I've become very firm about it. Whether I have big meetings or anything that I have to do, I want to make sure that I sleep enough because I know that my body doesn't function otherwise. You have to listen to your body, as you say. And sleep is part of our professional armory. And there was some research, and I and I can't remember the exact numbers, but it talked about um, I don't know if it's three or four hours sleep, but uh a small amount of sleep, how it can impair us the same way as if we've drunk quite a few units of alcohol. And yet we wouldn't, you wouldn't go into the meeting drunk because that you'd probably be exited straight away from that meeting room. And yet we can sometimes trade more hours worked for sleep, or and I don't think we always have, especially if we're on planes a lot of the time, we you know, you don't always have full control of the sleep schedule, but where you can is exercising that that discipline. And you owe it to your counterparties, you owe it to your clients, you owe it to your colleagues to be, you know, as much on top of your game as is possible. So doing anything that you know would detract from that is, yeah, it doesn't really, doesn't really show a lot of respect for another person's time. And and as I listen to you there, uh it what really comes up for me is, you know, as leaders, you have a responsibility to the seat that you sit in. You know, you're in that role for a reason, and there is a kind of a certain minimum expectations that come with that. Yes, and actually, you know what? This is something that I've been realizing over time, the degree of scrutiny on everything you do when you are more visible as a leader is you know intense. And that is something that you have to accept as part of your of your role. Um but you know, if I think of the, if you want, the behaviors um that I noticed of myself and not of others, um, sometimes I find it quite surprising, uh, but understand why. You know, every little thing that you do is very visible and therefore becomes scrutinized. And that's a good question. Uh because if everything you do is visible, and interestingly, my 12-year-old son is launching a podcast next week called Rugby Legends, uh, which and he's been very, very fortunate to interview some great rugby players, and one of them was Sir Clive Woodward, who was the England coach when England won the World Cup in 2003. It was one of the questions he asked Sir Clive, you know, what how do you deal with scrutiny in the seat? And I really found his response interesting because he said, Look, it's part of the territory. And if you can't deal with scrutiny, then you don't want to be the England rugby coach because there's going to be many media headlines written about you, some good, some not great. How do you deal with the scrutiny that comes with the seat? Because it is a role that, to your point, is visible and people are going to have an opinion. You have to deal with it with balance. I mean, you can't change your behaviors just because you are, you know, you're wondering what will people think about this. Um, at the same time, you have to hold yourself to a high standard because you know that you know, other people will not necessarily judge, but might have a different perception of your behavior, might be impacted in some way by your behavior. And you know, you have to be aware of it. I mean, one of the things that I realize is if I have a firm reaction to something, particularly more junior members on my team, will you know, they will have a negative reaction to it. They will feel concerned, maybe worried that they've done something wrong, worried that maybe, you know, I don't like how they work. And and so I really do need to be more nuanced when when I speak to um members of my team, particularly younger members of my team, and and my behavior is important. Yeah, it's and and it it's that perception can soon become reality. So how we show up, uh it it matters. There's an intentionality around how do I want to be received, knowing that you know, what are the things I need to dial up and dial down in every interaction, you know, different for maybe a junior member versus mid-level versus senior. What do you think people think of you when they meet you for the first time? So it depends on how much time they have with me. I I think that at the beginning they see me as a fairly friendly and open person and possibly warm. Um I hope they don't lose that first impression, by the way. But possibly, you know, a few minutes later they realize that I'm quite a focused person. And depending on the circumstances they are that are surrounding us, they might also realize that I'm a fairly firm person. But I'm still hoping they don't lose the first bit of the warmth and the friendliness and you know, the nice bit. So the friendly, open, warm, firm, and focused. And and actually hearing you say the word nice, can leaders be nice and still be, you know, can you be successful if you're nice? Depends on what you or how you define the word nice. So if nice is respectful, yes, you can be respectful, and yet as a leader, you have to be firm and you have to be able to make tough decisions. So nice can't be necessarily soft. if you want when that uh softness is out of place uh in decision making and those tough decisions uh they're part of the territory with the uh with the leadership role how do you go about making uh tough decisions and i suppose what what do you when we say the word tough decisions what what what what would you know what's a tough decision for you one of the toughest decisions is to let uh you know any of your team members go I mean to me that is a very tough decision um and uh the way I think about it is that in the end uh you have to think about the whole you have to think about your clients you have to think about your other team members you have to think about the business and sometimes um you know to make sure that your clients are served well that the business um continues to flourish and the rest of the team is put in the best uh position to perform sometimes unfortunately you have to take those decisions and as a leader it it is probably one of the most difficult uh parts of your job and is also one of the most lonely parts of your job because in the end that is going to be your decision and your responsibility I remember a CEO once sharing with me and it speaks to your point about you know you have to think about the whole and the whole includes your clients it includes other stakeholders but she said no CEO ever said they wish they'd taken longer to make the the hard decisions on personnel and to your point it it comes with the territory and I I think sometimes people can look at at leaders and they see them somewhat as avatars and you know and and yet as I'm hearing you you know these decisions are tough that you know they they that you know there's a it doesn't mean you're doing it you know you're devoid of any kind of warmth and empathy it's it's hard it is and it's you also spoke about the loneliness of leadership. I I again I'm not sure I I know I work with a lot of C level uh leaders and and many of them express uh the challenges that come with the loneliness of leadership because there's there's very you know as you're you know the you know when you you start your career there's many people you can talk to speak very openly there isn't as you know that that greater fear of judgment but as you as you ascend you know and especially at the apex there's very few places where you can take that corporate mask off. It is it is true and I don't know if I would define it as a corporate mask being taken off because I have a very close relationship with my team um particularly with my direct reports and you know I think we are I believe we are very open toward each other and um you can be the person you are but sometimes when the decisions have to be really um when decisions are really difficult that is when you have to take that responsibility because you don't want to give that responsibility or like you know kind of give it to someone else and and put them in that position. You you have to take it upon yourself no matter how close you are with the rest of your team and how open you are with them. And do you do you out of interest do you have a trusted tribe you know in those moments I mean because many leaders I speak to speak about the fact you know they've got people in that kind of trusted circle that they can lean into or lean on when you know in those times. I do and you know I often get asked who is your mentor who was your mentor I feel fortunate to say that I have many mentors and I have had many mentors and actually they're also different from each other and that makes them even more powerful as my as my guides as my you know as being there for me when I have to you know compare some opinions or sometimes even just vent um and and it's important to have the trusted thrive and and of course I mean the the fantastic women who I met with you at Women in Leadership Global I mean that is a trusted tribe. It is it is and and to your point about venting I think sometimes we it's my husband sometimes in my trusted tribe is the person I can vent to but I'm like don't we need to say anything I just I just need to I just need to purge and then actually they they do say this there was I I I can't I must be in my coaching qualifications it was something on the lines if you went and stood next to a lamppost and just purged and vented you would still take so much value because sometimes you just need to feel that this there's something even if it doesn't have a heartbeat something is listening. Should we all have a lamppost of venting we all have days where we're like I just everything is irritating me or frustrating you just need to just because you can't when you start to bury those emotions you can't see them but that there's a weight associated with them. It is true it is true. And I have to say I don't vent a lot I don't know why maybe because I'm very open and so if I am unhappy of something I might just say it there and then so I don't keep things in I've learned to be very diplomatic or more diplomatic than I used to be about what I say and how I say it but but I'm still you know pretty straightforward. And so my husband at times I go back home and I don't talk about work I don't talk about you know what has happened during the day and he actually doesn't like that. He tells me that I'm too you know I'm keeping everything to myself why aren't you sharing and um yeah I don't know it's you know we're all different he shares a lot with me about his work and what happens and how he feels and uh and I share less. Yeah it's interesting isn't it I think I used to share a lot with my husband and then I realized he probably wasn't listening so much so now I kind of lean into the Women Leadership Global the Trusted Tribe or other mentors that I've had or have in fact um and those have been such critical relationships. So I think you know we're not supposed to do the journey of life or our careers on our own. And it's really interesting with some of my mentors is I would give myself the advice others give me if it wasn't me, but we're not always objective. So sometimes we just need that other person. And you know the other interesting thing is that mentors don't always have to be more experienced or older than you. Yeah. I mean they are younger members of my team who have taught me just as much as older and more senior friends and colleagues that I've had over time because they see things in a different way. And actually one of the things that I experienced with younger teams is with young team members is that they're more open to tell you what they think like the new generations and you know you look at them and you think like you're right. Yeah I didn't think about this but you're right I have to give it to you and I make sure that they know it's it's I think as someone's perspectives you you you've mentioned that word and I not that I've got my beach ball with me but um a wonderful uh uh business person Chris Brindley taught me this that the beach ball that you know if we think of the beach ball we have when we're children you know all the different orange segments the green the yellow the orange the blue and when we're really close to a situation I might see the ball is blue and green and you're looking at it and you're saying it's red and orange and we're equally right and we're equally right equally wrong which is the importance of that being curious I think being curious and actively seeking out perspectives and actually then being thankful when people give you their perspective and not uh where you see it go horribly wrong is where you ask for someone's opinion you don't like it and then you you're not always gracious with what you hear. You know um I once had this um course at work many many years ago and the coach told us to say thank you for your feedback so even if someone was giving you like you know the most like tough the toughest feedback ever or you know they were just just seriously telling you off about something you had to pose and just say thank you for your feedback and just that little minute when you know your your feelings and all your kind of emotions were just just you know given a moment of calm just that minute was you know going to help you to think about what was told to you I actually think that was a great great advice because feedback is a gift feedback is an eternal judgment you know we can process it and if we don't agree with it you know that's our that's our opinion and one leader shared with me recently and it it's never something I really thought about but he said when he gets feedback he'll always ask one detractor someone who he doesn't you know he kind of butts heads with a little bit um because he said I can learn as much from the detractor I don't always agree with it but I at least I understand the perception of that's maybe being experienced by others um versus the people who are the the big you know advocates and champions I I completely agree with that. You learn even if you don't think that that person has the right understanding of who you are and what you do and why you do it you do learn from the way that person sees you because chances are that person is very different from you. And that's why perhaps they don't like your behavior. They don't think you are you know you've done something well enough and and it's always good to understand that perception as you've just said perception can become reality and actually does become reality for others. Yeah so it it's it's being open and curious and and with that curiosity I I'm curious around when you you know you've got a very big leadership team uh you're in many leadership positions yourself what attributes do you respect most in leaders you know what do you think are the defining qualities traits of successful leaders self-awareness respect and the and the willingness to be accountable I mean how many times have we seen leaders uh who seem to never fail never do anything wrong is always someone else's fault oh it's my secretary who didn't put the meeting right in my diary oh it's you know or you know this member of my team who's not good enough or in the end you are accountable for every person in your team and if they fail and they can fail you should give them the ability and the space to fail but you are responsible for that failure. Hearing what you said there about uh blame uh I think it was Stephen Covey or Jim Collins it was one of one of them who talked about in situations you have leaders who are the windows and leaders who are the mirrors the the the windows are the people that point they look outwards your fault you know you didn't give me the instructions you know you didn't tell me where I needed to be you know I it's it's it's it it's blaming it's it's finger pointing whereas the mirrors are they do a bit of an accusation audit how might I be responsible how might I have contributed to the the situation so it goes that that mirror piece really speaks to the self-awareness that you mentioned how can I avoid it to happen again and and you can't you know there's something that I've learned over time and I often speak to my team members about it you can't be consistently thinking about your failures because it's not healthy. But being very aware of the lessons that come from them that is key to you growing as a leader. It's so critical the lessons that are learned and and if you look at any successful entrepreneur many failures that have defined they've been very defining moments for them and and and what I think about leaders today I I shared earlier that the world is moving faster than ever before it's it's a very unpredictable place to be a very exciting time I think to be in the industry what do you think is the biggest challenge challenge for leaders today adapting adapting to an environment that as you say is changing at a very fast pace. You know I often think about this I mean the environment at least in my industry which is the asset management industry has been evolving very fast over the centuries I mean you know from I don't know from JP Morgan you know to to today's you know financial world so I'm wondering if perhaps we are all saying oh this world is changing so rapidly and perhaps you know 200 years ago they were saying exactly the same thing. But I do feel it I do feel that right now there is such a big confluence of different forces that are affecting the way we work let alone the way we live you know whether it's technology with artificial intelligence whether it's you know the ability of a wider cohort of investors including retail investors to access the market and to react to what happens in the market or whether is this almost instantaneous ability to access news flow. There's so many things that are happening around us and you know let's not forget that there is you know a humongous part of the world population that is right now getting to the point that they have enough capital and enough education to start investing think about emerging markets there's so much that is happening and we have to realize that as the world evolves as our clients evolve as the tools that we can avail ourselves of evolve we need to evolve with them. Yeah there's there's um AQ is our adaptability quotient we've got IQ intellectual um our smarts EQ our emotional intelligence and AQ that adaptability quotient that you know the ability to be agile and it reminds me of the quote by Charles Darwin who said it's not the strongest of the species that survive you know it's the ones that are most adaptable to change and I think change is is acute it's exponential so that the the being adaptable isn't a nice to have it it's it's a core component of success. It is and it's you know I find it quite puzzling how so many in our industry are still somehow holding on to older practices or different types of investment products or you know different concepts of teams you know I I am a big believer that the new cohort of clients wants to feel that there is durability in any investment product that they buy. And for that to be true you have to have a strong team around that product. So the old concept of the you know key person risk which you know in the past was mainly the key man risk and the the prima donna um investment manager that needs to change and yet in many areas of our industry it hasn't changed yet. That prima donna you talked about I've when I worked in the industry I saw a number of prima donnas uh but who were fantastically talented at being you know very good producers and therefore I they were probably kept in their seat with uh even though they demonstrated at times you know toxic uh behavior how do you manage the prima donna i I think about the whole what we talked about earlier I think about my stakeholders my clients my team members the success of the business and once you start thinking in that way you realize that sacrificing all of that to one person is just not worth it. And that makes it easier to you know to explain your point and be firm and make these individuals understand that you know they're not the best thing since sliced bread because um as I have said in the past you might be the best thing since sliced bread but a client needs to buy the whole kitchen. So they want to make sure that you have a strong team that you have a strong company around you that you have you know nowadays there's good compliance good risk good everything and that word durability that you spoke to earlier you know clients want to feel durability and and I really am hearing there it's not just about one person it's about a company it's about a team so you know no one person is bigger than that yes yes that that is absolutely true um and it's true because in the end you need that whole consistent business to thrive and you need a hole you can't start poking holes in it and taking little bits out you said earlier how do you want to be you know how do you I think how do you want people to to experience you and that also speaks to the firm and focused now that the lines don't cross the lines you know because if you do you are not bigger than the uh the team and in the interest of some time we've got left I wanted to do a quick fire round if that was okay Fabiana. So with the it's it's short questions, short answers so people they're a blend of personal and professional so people can get uh an even greater sense of your magnificence um I haven't prepped you totally with these so this is like off the cast see what comes up in the moment so the first one a leader you admire so that's a very good question. So there are many I could you know I could go back to Gandhi but one that I admire right now and has really grown on me is Jamie Diamond and it is because he speaks his mind and you know he might be controversial he might have his own opinion but he speaks his mind. Yeah I find that very refreshing and you know he has done an amazing job as a leader of JP Morgan. I I think of the world we live in someone who who will speak their truth um it gives others permission to do the same uh next question one word that describes your leadership style fair a quality you most value in others self-awareness your go-to drink in a coffee shop oat milk latte with strong coffee is this uh your Italian roots I always think the Italians drink wonderful coffee oh yes it has to be it has to be really strong not too much not too watery you know like restractile but very strong okay so that leads me to think favorite place to go and drink a uh an well the the the drink you've just shared the oat was it the oat's milk with the coffee it's the oat milk latte oat milk latte I don't drink coffee You see, this is where, but yeah, favorite favorite oat milk latte you ever had. Where's it been? In my own kitchen. I am a terrible cook, like terrible, because I get distracted while I'll cook and everything goes like you know, pear-shaped and it burns, and it's it's really not pretty. But the one thing that I can make is a really good coffee. I'm very proud of that. Okay, well, you can convert me into uh oat milk lattes. Uh are you an early bird or a night owl? Super early bird, super early, and actually I turn into a complete useless person around 9:30 in the evening. I can stretch myself to 10 o'clock, but after that, I mean I'm really I'm gone. What time does your alarm go off in the morning? Five-ish. Yeah, and we're similar. Introvert or extrovert or somewhere in between. Extrovert. Okay. Uh if I want to contact you, email or phone call. Email. Email. And be brief. Be brief. I think that's for everyone. When you see open emails, which got paragraphs, you're like, I'm just going to come to that later. And then you've got a hundred other emails. Um, one thing you can't work without. Data. I mean data junkie. I need to see numbers. Best book you've read this year, assuming you read. Your book. Oh, thank you. Now we didn't even prime that. Stratospheric leaders, everyone. Um see, I really enjoyed it. It was it was so, you know, it was different, it was refreshing. I also know many of the leaders you um interviewed, so I can recognize the personality, and it's interesting to yeah, have like a deeper look into what they do, how they do it, and what they think. Again, it's having different perspectives, right? We need different perspectives. We it's good to think differently and to see how anyone who's different from us thinks. I agree, because it was always something to learn. Um, what do you think your parents? I don't know if your parents are live, what do you think they're most proud of? Okay, I need to I need to qualify this. Um, so my parents actually had me at a very uh late stage of their life. So they are both deceased, uh, but they were teenagers during the Second World War. Okay. And um, being both Italian, they had to choose their part, and they were um they were not aligned to the fascism, and um they had part of their friends and family who were partisans, which meant that they had a very strong affinity with the communist party. So um my dad died when I was very young, my mother grew me up, and she um was a big believer in uh communism. So if she would see me now, she would probably be proud of me, but she would be wondering what had gone wrong, why her uh daughter was such a capitalist, whereas she had tried to educate her to different values. Okay, so that leads, I think, to the last question, which is what do you want your legacy to be? And I initially I said as a leader, but actually, what do you want your legacy to be as a human being? You know, I hope I can be remembered by those around me as someone who has had an impact on their lives, their careers in many different ways. Um and I hope I, you know, can be seen as a fair person, a warm person, and someone who has been supporting them if they were close to me. Um and you know, I'd like trust to be the first word that they think of and they think of me. I love that. Well, uh, impacts is certainly something you've had on me. Uh I said you've left an imprint, I can classify you as a friend. And I have taken copious notes uh listening to you today. So I know people are going to take so much value from this episode. Thank you for so graciously sharing your wisdom and your time with us. Thank you, Georgia.