#2 Carlos Hernandez: The Leadership Playbook

In this episode, Georgie sits down with Carlos Hernandez, whose extraordinary 37-year career at JPMorgan, took him from the firm’s investment banking training program to Executive Chair of Investment and Corporate Banking, as well as being a key member of the Operating Committee and the Corporate & Investment Bank Management Team.

Working almost every part of the business, Carlos earned a reputation as a trusted adviser to top executives and world leaders. A key member of Jamie Dimon’s inner circle, Carlos played a pivotal role in shaping JPMorgan’s strategy and future.

This is a masterclass in true leadership excellence!

Key Takeaways from This Episode:

Command Respect, Don’t Demand It: The best leaders inspire trust and loyalty through action, not authority.

Crisis Leadership 101: Why alignment and clarity of purpose are essential when leading through uncertainty.

Tough Decisions Require Fairness: Letting people go, restructuring teams, or making high-stakes calls should always be done with integrity.

 Transparency is Equity: Open, honest communication builds stronger teams, particularly in moments of crisis.

Balancing Big Egos: Great leaders know how to harness strong personalities while maintaining alignment and mutual respect.

The Power of Prioritization: The hardest decisions are often about what not to do—focusing on what moves the needle is key.

Memorable Quotes:

"A good leader makes people believe in themselves, realize their potential, and get the most out of the whole team.” 

“In a crisis, the worst thing you can do is have everyone pulling in different directions. Clarity and alignment make leadership easier.” 

“You can’t lead from a distance. People need to feel you’re in the foxhole with them.” 

“Prioritization isn’t about deciding what to do. It’s about making the hard choice on what not to do.” 

If you want to learn more practical lessons and real-world leadership insights from remarkable founder CEOs, you can ⁠order Georgie's book Stratospheric CEOs out now.

Show Links

Website - https://www.georgiedickins.com

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/georgiedickins

YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@GeorgieDickins-q7x

Transcript

0:00

I'm George Dickens of God's gonna lead this. I get to have inspired conversations with all the leaders. Join me to get game teaching strategies. Every episode has with wisdom inside the will of that school. Stuff they simply don't teach you in business school. If you want to elevate your game and most importantly, elevate those around you, this podcast is for you. I was delighted to welcome Carlos Fernandez to Stratospheric Leaders, a true powerhouse in finance. Carlos retired from JP Morgan after an extraordinary 37-year career, one that began in the firm's investment banking training program and saw him ascend to executive chair of investment and corporate banking, as well as being a key member of the operating committee and the corporate investment bank management team. Over nearly four decades, he worked across almost every part of the business, earning a reputation as a trusted advisor to top executives and world leaders. A key member of Jamie Diamond's Inner Circle, Carlos played a pivotal role in shaping JP Morgan's strategy and future. He was a driving force behind JP Morgan's innovation and instrumental in building out the equities in electronic trading businesses. His impact is woven into the fabric of the firm. Careers are rarely linear, but Carlos's journey is proof that when you lead with excellence, integrity, and a relentless commitment to impact, opportunities don't just come your way, you create them. Yet his greatest legacy isn't just in the deals he's done or the businesses he's built, it's in the people he shaped. Across JP Morgan and beyond, countless executives cite Carlos as one of the most extraordinary mentors of their careers. This is somebody who leads with both conviction and compassion, proving that you can be tough and exacting whilst still being deeply human. Carlos is one of the most enchanting and inspiring leaders I've met. He embodies what it means to lead by example. He's decisive yet thoughtful, ambitious yet grounded, ruthless in execution, yet generous in spirit. What you're about to hear is a true masterclass in leadership excellence. Enjoy. I am truly excited for you to be a guest on my podcast, Stratospheric Leaders, because I have had the great privilege of getting to know you over the past four years, working with your team, and you are also a very incredible contributor to my book, which I've got here, Stratospheric CEOs. And I've had the opportunity to hear firsthand many of your incredible standby, your lessons, your learnings. So I know today's conversation, there will be no exception there, and it's going to be packed with many, many golden nuggets. And I think these golden nuggets are for emerging leaders, equally, they're for seasoned leaders too. So I want to dive in and really, first of all, get to know you, not on the seat that you sat in, but you as Carla Fernandez. So I was going to ask you if I was to Google search you, what is one thing I wouldn't find out, a lesser known fact about you? Well, first of all, thank you for having me, Georgie. It's a pleasure to be doing this with you. And I enjoy reading your book. And a lot of wisdom uh went into that. Uh, a lot of people that I respect uh who help you um in that, and uh it's terrific. And I hope everybody who is managing any anybody or any individuals uh or groups uh will read it because there's a lot of stuff over there and it's very simple, straightforward, but uh very meaningful. So congratulations. Uh but uh what would be a fact to Google me? I'm sure there will be many uh if they could get into Google. I don't use social media myself as much, but um, if there's one is I'm a big music aficionado, uh particularly vinyl vinyl records. Uh I probably that's my number one uh thing that I, you know, my wife would say indulge myself too much. Uh so uh that would be one. Uh, what type of music kind of interests? What genre of music do you listen to? I I do like all kinds of music. Uh it depends on the moment and the hour and all that, but uh I do enjoy classical music. Uh I enjoy jazz, which is probably if I have to pick one, it would be the number one. Uh, and of course, I like all the you know rock and roll type of music as well. Uh so I I enjoy everything. But if you look at my collection of music I have from African bands to Asian bands to uh everything about you know some of the great symphonies uh ever made, and uh and I enjoy it. You know, I go there and listen to sometimes um here in my office um in Connecticut, and I will you know play some background music of classical music and you know, just enjoy it. And so that will be probably one thing that is not in my social media page, but as I said, I don't use social media, so uh that wouldn't know it. Okay, and I'm wondering, in your in the decade you you've had several decades of your career, and who has been the biggest influence on you? And what did they what do they teach you? Well, listen, I think there's been uh different levels and different you know phases in my career. Uh uh, you know, first of all, that you know, people who are always trying to excel, that would be the number one common denominator uh that I would say. Um and you know, people also had to make decisions, you know, along the way, you need to make tough decisions. That's part of a job. Uh and as a leader, uh, and as long as you know you always make decisions uh on a fair, equitable basis, you would always feel good about it. Anyone who thinks making uh tough decisions, uh for example, letting somebody go uh that that is uh very easy to do uh has to be crazy. You know, you have to be sadistic. Uh so I learned all that along the way, and you know, there were many people that I, you know, obviously uh would give them credit for having shaped my career over the years. I mean, in the old JP Morgan would be Roberto Mendoza, who um, you know, taught me when I was really learning, you know, how to you know talk to clients and you know, understand what clients' needs were. And uh he was uh excellent at that. Obviously, in the subsequent years, somebody like Steve Black, uh, who, you know, was my boss when we did the merger with Chase, and uh, you know, tough decisions in a tough situation and had to deal with it and moments of um uh crisis, and then obviously Jamie Diamond, who was my boss for the last 20 years, and um and you know, being with him in the foxhole many times and seeing how he conducts himself in the good, the bad, and the ugly, uh, and how consistent uh he is. So you learn all that, but you know, at the end, and there were many others. I mean, I will learn from people, not necessarily my bosses, but it would be peers of people that work for me or competitors, by the way. You know, so it's always trying to get the best out of you know, somebody uh that you know can make you a better, you know, manager, a better leader. And I think that's it, that's a really interesting point that we can learn from everyone, can't we? It's not necessarily the our peers or the people above us, but learning opportunities come in many shapes and forms. Absolutely. And I and I think that's the the probably the mistake that a lot of people think you can only learn from somebody who's your boss or somebody who is uh uh was there ahead of you. You know, yes, I mean they do have some experience and um can be very helpful uh in that respect. But there's so many other things that you can learn from, you know, your peers, the people that you know that work for you. They can give you feedback to say, hey, you know what, the way you've done it, or X and Y, and uh colleagues that support you, you know, like in, you know, if you're running a business, there is different people who see that the management team that uh they can be very helpful in helping you uh become a better person, a better leader, a better manager, you know. And when you talk about leaders, um, I know you've mentored many uh leaders throughout your career. And what would you say the top leadership qualities that really drive uh a successful revenue business? Well, listen, I I do think, you know, and and there's a lot of, in my opinion, a lot of confusion about leaders. I do think there is, you know, administrators, their managers, and their leaders. Uh and the leaders obviously tend to be uh a combination of the three. Uh I think leaders um they, you know, uh command respect. They don't demand it. Uh they you know uh can inspire uh an organization, a team, uh to you know pursue a mission or whatever is possible. And people feel an attachment to you, right? And you feel an attachment to them. I mean, that is very important. It's not just them to you, but you have to be for them to feel like, you know, when you say follow me, they're prepared to follow you rather than shoot you in the back. Uh and and you know, that people feel like you know, you are with them in the foxhole, uh, and they are with you in the foxhole. And that's very, very important, right? Is is you are with them, uh, is not just them with you. So there is this sort of like sense of, you know, we're working together, we are um aligned, and we're trying to go for the same, you know, or we're going for the same mission, the same objectives, uh, and this is all of us together, right? And and that's what a leader, in my opinion, does is we, you know, get the most out of the people, you know, uh make them believe uh themselves, uh, allow them to realize their potential and collectively uh get the most out of the whole uh organization. And the word that really comes up for me there is partnership. There's that reciprocity to your point. It's it's it both sides uh bring that level of commitment and there's trust on both sides. Yeah, I mean, listen, uh a good leader uh makes everybody feel like, you know, yes, I might be the GP, I might be the 51% vote, but at the end of the day, it's all of us, it's our you know, it's our mission, we all have the same purpose, we all have intentionality of what we're trying to do, and it's a collective effort. And and to me, that's the sign of a good leaders. And and you know, listen, and and these people that believe what you're trying to do, or they're all you know, uh thoroughly aligned. And if they're where, and hopefully you get them before, so everybody understands that we are on a mission uh uh with the same kind of like purpose and objectives. And if you do that, I think you know, um, everything is much easier because you know what's there always going to be some adversity. Oh, you know what, you didn't think you know COVID comes, and you know what, we have to change whatever plan it was. And it's much easier if everybody's like, okay, guys, we were ready for to be in Europe, but we're gonna have to change because now it's somewhere else. We have to change plans, and it's it's not like, oh, whoa, I'm at, you know, I already have all this stuff and it's set up because people understand that you know it's much easier to move around and and you know, um, and when I mean the comment about Europe, I mean it like it wasn't the plans, but the plans have to change, okay? So we all have to change, and it has to be a totally different uh uh mission right now. And I think that's with leadership, it comes much easier to do all those. Whether it's you know the strategy that we set up ourselves to do, to embark on, maybe it was the wrong one. We all got it wrong, but it's easier to then get everybody rather than pointing fingers and saying, oh my God, you know, I told you so, we should have done it differently. And I think the more you can align that is much easier to do. And if we could just touch on that, um, because it feels a really important um piece around that adaptability because the world is moving faster than ever before. It's unpredictable, it's uncertain, it's highly volatile. And I know one of the challenges for many leaders is you know, leading through these times. You know, how do you lead when everything is moving so fast? And I through your career, you've you've led and navigated through many crises. You know, what would be the strategies you would share with your team in terms of best practices? Well, listen, I do think that um that's where I go to the alignment and everybody to be um on the same page or on the same book. That's I would make that comment. You know, that's exactly what we're trying to do. And we all this is a purpose. And if we have to change it, it's much easier than when everybody says a collective understanding of what we were trying to do and why we have to change it. Uh, and I think, you know, in moments of crisis, the last you want is to be people, you know, hey, you know, I'm going my way, you go your way, and everybody's trying to uh find the recipe for what we uh need to be doing. And so it's easier to sort of collect everybody and say, okay, this is what we are, what are we going to do? And these are the reasons why. And people understand before what we were trying to accomplish, and now why we have to change it or pivot to whatever we need to do. Uh, and that's why for me, uh, that's where the leadership comes, is uh is so important, because it is it's not just executing whatever mission, whatever strategy, whatever goals or plans you have, but if you have to change it, it's much easier for people to understand why you have to change it. Because everybody knew before this was the reasons why, and these were the elements that we were focusing on, and these two or three have changed, and that's why we need to pivot right now. Uh, and and that's why I think it's is is paramount that you create that sense of you know collective ownership, right? That people feel uh that you know I am I am an owner, I'm an owner of this. You know, what we're doing, I am part of it, and I have uh something to do with the output, with the ex, you know, not just the execution of what we're doing, but what will come out, it is my doing. And and so I I do think that that is very, very important to do, particularly in the moments that we are now. It seems to be like every other whatever year or two years is a new crisis, right? And as I always used to tell people, whatever crisis is today, you know, you can write a manual, but in next time it won't be the same one. But some of the elements will be the same, meaning, okay, how do we act? What do we do? What are the next ones? How do we communicate to aid, to ourselves, and then to the rest of the organization so everybody understands what we're trying to do, and there's a very complete, you know, sort of like um understanding why we're trying to uh to go. I you know, I to me, I will tell you the best was one of the examples was, for example, during COVID, uh, the uh when it came out, uh it was hard, nobody knew which way it was going and you know what's going to happen. Is this gonna be two months, three months, three years? I mean, obviously, now we all know with the benefit of hindsight. But um, you know, I remember like writing a message to uh to the whole organization, you know, pretty early on. I probably was like, you know, four or five days, you know, maybe a week. We don't know where this is going, we don't know it, but collectively, this is what we're gonna do, and this is the things that all of you can do to help us and you know, a service our clients, which is what we wanted to do, what you can do to obviously help ourselves, you know, particularly some members who might be in places that are very impacted, or you know, junior people who might be by themselves and all that. So, but you know, it's sort of like how you get people to sort of rally and feel like, hey, this is the mission, this is what we're trying to do. And, you know, I don't know what the next crisis will be. I'm sure there will be many, seems to be now all the time, but it's how you can get the organization and the people who are with you at the table, uh, the immediate, you know, sort of like partners, and I call it partners because they're very critical to that, and then cascade that into the system. And and uh listening to you, you you once shared about uh uh transparency is equity, and I really hear that coming through there, that in those moments of crisis, explaining your why, you know, why we have to pivot, so everyone has a level of understanding around what the course of action you're taking, you know, what the purpose around that is. Yeah, well, listen, I mean, in everything else, in everything you do, right, transparency is critical because people understand, hey, that's what we do in it. I mean, you know, this is the inputs I have or we have to make this decision. And if you, for whatever reason, think that this is the the wrong conclusion, say it now. And because, you know, we want to make sure this is for the best, for the interests of all of us. Uh and I think transparency in all fronts, and that's where it's important also you create an environment where people feel that they can they can, you know, give their views without any, oh my God, you know, I'm gonna look like an idiot, or there's consequences if I go against a decision. I think that is so paramount to creating an environment that people feel, again, I go back to I can realize my potential, I can do, you know, I am capable of doing that. And sometimes, I mean, listen, I used to tell people, you know, the reason why sitting at the at the management table is because I mean, you have you have something to contribute. And, you know, the the shame is on me if I don't listen to you. Uh, and but you know, I also is all of us to do it collectively. I mean, that's you know, frankly, the the basis that you need to really create as an environment for people to succeed, for the organization to thrive. And and and I'd love to pull the thread on that. Like, how do you create that environment where there is that openness, there's that uh receptiveness to uh ideas? Because I often think people more junior in organization can sometimes, there can be a level of apprehension if they're they have a contrarian view to their to their leader. So, how do you create that level of openness where people feel they can express their their thoughts and ideas? Well, listen, I I I always would welcome that, and I would tell people the reason why you are sitting at the table is because I do believe that you have value to contribute. Um, what I would never accept is you go around, I mean, there is a meeting, and that's where the meeting we're going to talk about it. You know, if there is something, you know, that you have to share, uh, oh my God, I have to come see you after the meeting and talk to you. That is not in the best interest of the organization, right? Now, if it's something that is totally personal, or of course I understand it, but if it's oh, I disagree with this view, oh, I don't think that way that you know he or she's expressing that strategy is wrong. So I uh how you create that environment that people feel they can always um share their views when you are sitting all together, and myself and everybody in the management team, uh, and there is no consequence to that, right? I mean, the whole thing is like we want to get the best you know strategy, and then it's how do we get the people to execute on that? And it's much better if we all have a very clear view of what we're trying to do rather than sending uh mixed signals and ambiguity in the system because that only creates chaos, and frankly, uh the end result is you know, either you don't deliver or late and you know, inefficient and all that. So, so that that would be the the key there. But it's how do you create that environment? For me, it was always like I would welcome, I would share people rather than you know. I mean, I would not be like, oh my god, that's silly, stupid decision and all kinds of stuff. It's like, you know, and and that's why meetings are important, but that's also I do believe that if you have meetings that are too many people and you know uh too long, uh they don't lend themselves to really get to the the you know shaping up these kind of like you know outcomes. Yeah, I I I think with meetings, I think many people find themselves in meeting overwhelm at the moment and so many you know direct debits of their time. So there is something there about being thoughtful around the length of meetings. So to your point, how many people have to be in that meeting? Jeff Bezos has a uh uh I mean the way he approaches meetings, he talks about pizzas. There should never be more people in a meeting than uh two pizzas words. So, in order that again, there's sharp focus, there's attention, and you're it's not diluting the focus of the meeting. Yeah, well, listen, and I don't know what what he talks about. I know I I know his comment on the pizzas. I don't know if he's talking about an Italian pizza, which is very thin or very small, or the American pizzas, right? So but I wouldn't be too prescriptive in the sense of the size and all these, because I give you an example, right? I mean, there's a crisis and the global financial crisis, and we have to decide hey, collateral and all these, and how what do we do? It we need people from risk, we need people from finance, we need people from accounting, we might Salespeople, but it's it's having the relevant people at the right time. So it's not like it has to be four, it has to be 15. I mean, listen, uh, some of our meetings, for example, in 2008, and when we're dealing with all the crisis, and you know, what kind of collateral the meetings could be 20, 30 people because, hey, you know, what are we doing with X? What's happening over there? Because that one has implications to something else. But it was kind of like, okay, get it on, and after like whatever, you know, 45 minutes, you know, we will have an outcome and you know, strategy, and this is the plan for the day. And talking about prices, every day was changing, you know what I mean? We have a meeting at 7:30 in the morning, then one meeting at noon, one meeting at 5 p.m. to sort of compare notes where we are. Well, something came out here, and but it's as long as why you are in here, this is the purpose of this meeting, and this is why your relevance is critical to what we're trying to accomplish. And and I would say, you know, but having just meetings for the size of having a lot of meetings or a lot of people uh don't lend themselves to really good outcomes, in my opinion. I love what you said. Relevant people at the right time. That feels like a great soundbite. It's and and there's some intentionality, that means being very deliberate around who's in there, what's the purpose, why are they there. So everyone's in there because it's in yeah, it's intentional. 100%. Listen, and and I think, you know, if it's COVID crisis and we have uh meetings, of course, we need more of the people in the credit uh department because everybody's asking for facilities, loans, and all that. So we need those people over there, or you know, approving some of these uh decisions. And it's having the right, you know, I go back to people at that, and you would say, Well, all the people were not there, and you know, why? Because it's not critical for them to be there. They would like to be there, but it's really more like we're trying to get to the right outcomes and we're trying to get the relevant, not trying, we will get the relevant people there so we make the right decisions with all the right inputs. Yeah, I and and and when we think about decisions, um uh how do you make decisions when everything is moving so fast? Because as leaders, uh we're having to make decisions with incomplete data. You you don't always, there's no crystal ball to know you know what's coming. So, how how do you make those decisions when everything is moving so fast? Well, listen, I don't think most of the, particularly when things start moving and it's a lot of crisis, you never have a hundred percent perfect information, right? What you need to get is as close as you can, whether, I don't know, two-thirds or you call it whatever you know, percentages. But that's why for me is it's critical that you solicit as much input from the people that could really have experience or could have something to add to that. And that's back to the how do you create an environment of people feeling like I am an owner, you know, this is like Carlos's business. We all own it together. Uh, and and so we can, I would make a decision. I used to take people, said, you know, I am, yeah, I'm the GP, but at the end of the day, you all are with me uh trying to solve the same issue here. And so I will solicit and then I would share with teams and say, that's what we're going to do for these particular reasons. And I know some of you share these views, some of you think it should be this strategy B, others and this. And let me tell you why we're gonna go into that. And that is so critical, you know, and particularly sharing that with the team, why you know you selected uh whatever decision it was. And I said, you know, these are the inputs I have, these are the different options, why we did it this way. So people understand, you know, that's how we do it. It's not like you wake up and you're just capricious about it and said, that's what I'm going to do. Or, you know, what I ask you for your input, but who cares? You know, I'm gonna decide what I'm going to do. I mean, it's always how do you set the environment and the tone that people feel owners of that? Uh, and that to me is is so critical for um uh execution of any of these strategies and any whatever it is, whether it's in moments of crisis is even more important, but anything, you know, that people feel why we're doing it. There is some intention over there. And so when somebody asks them why are we doing X and no Y, they have an answer, and there's that cascades into the organization. You know, why are we deciding to do X payments in these particular three countries, but we're not doing it in these two countries, well, for these particular reasons, you know, and and and so people would understand, you know, the the missions, and it was easier to explain. Some people might not agree with that, but that's why we have to do it. And you know, in everything we do, there's always prioritization. I mean, you know, in our jobs, I used to tell people, I said, the biggest challenge for us or decision is deciding the things we don't want to do rather than the things we want to do. And that is, you know, the mistake that everybody always makes, is they put a lot of things on the on the menu and you know, all the priorities and all that, which is in my opinion, is crazy. Uh it sort of like leads itself, uh lends itself to sort of like, you know, uh poor execution, poor results, lack of commitment from the organization. Uh, and you know, that that would be my you know, sort of like take on that. And and I think Steve Jobs talks about the kind of the power of he had the power of like three priorities, yeah. Anything more, you know, he he shared that it would it dilutes people's focus. And and I think this is another critical piece here that you've um you've mentioned about prioritization. I think we leaders now, there are so many things they can do, and you know, the challenge is really discerning, you know, what is the where's the highest and best use of their time. So, how did you approach prioritization? How do you discern between your all the things you could do? Well, listen, everything obviously it depends on what the moment is or what the situation is. You know, we want to invest more in this particular region or that particular product, and you know, because it, you know, my view is always, you know, I want to win the war, but to win the war, I want to win battles, you know. Uh, and you go and which one has the most, you know, significant uh impact to what we will do, what which one would put us in a position to really do more? Uh, and then I go back to this is prioritizations, you know. I mean, if I start doing X here and I number one over there, but in the scheme of things is totally irrelevant to what we're trying to do or might not really have the uh the impact. You know, in our business, for example, in investment banking, it's always okay, what sectors do we want to prioritize more, or what, you know, of course we want to be number one everywhere in every country, in every region, but it's humanly impossible, you know, and there's always limitations from a do we uh have first of all, do they have the right wallet, the right opportunities in those particular places, and the right bankers, and some of these go through cycles. Where are we on the cycle and all that? And so all that is the prioritization. And I go back to you know, deciding the things we don't want to do is more difficult than the ones we want to do, because it becomes very clear, like I said, well, these are the three sectors that we have to dominate. And if we don't do them well, guess what? It doesn't matter. You know, we can be number one in X, Y, and Z, but we will be average in something else, right? Or regions, you know, these particular regions are paramount to if you want to be number one in investment banking, for example. And and so making all those decisions are are you know, to me so important, the prioritization, you know, because in our jobs, anyone, whatever it is, you know, there's a lot of stuff that people want to do, and everybody feels it's like the Santa Claus wish list, you know, the like kids writing everything. And and but you know, you have to prioritize. It's a fact of life. There is a finite amount of resources, whether it's time, forget about it, whether you have the money. You can have all the money, but it's time, ability to execute, and most importantly, what's the ramifications? What are what's the secondary uh effects of many things that you do and that could have greatest impact on either your staying power or your ability to really what I go win the war rather than you know just win little battles? Yeah, I I love I love what you've shared there, and I want to pivot back to the um the people side because I've shared with you on many occasions that I've met many people in the industry who've all been mentored by you. So um it it and and people speak to your incredibly high EQ. And I and I suppose my question there is around how did you choose, like how do you choose your spots of people to nurture and cultivate? Well, listen, I I don't think that is something that I have uh an algorithm to who do you pick or not. And um I you know, I always will tell people help yourself, and you know, people will help you, I will help you. Uh, do you have the um in you the desire to really yourself excel, you know, and and I will give people feedback and some of them will take it, you know, and will run with it and make the most out of it. And those are the people that, you know, I'm sure they'll tell you I was their mentors, and and many still at the company, many have left over the years. Uh I would always be, you know, people, you know, I'm a believer of giving feedback real time, uh, meaning, you know, and I don't mean feedback like feedback doesn't have to be, you know, oh, things to develop. It could be, my God, you were so great into that meeting, or what you did is fantastic. You know what? We should really learn how we can use that. Or I would take it myself, and my God, that's a good good way to to make a presentation and all that. And you know, but again, I go back to you say, how do you relate to it? You know, I think people need to believe in that you're being genuine, you know, that you really uh care about a themselves, I mean the individuals and all that. But at the end of the day, is if they're working for me or in the organization at JP Morgan, that is a win-win. It's for everybody, it's for the organization, yeah, it's for the individual, and certainly for me, having more capable people uh would only make the job easier, right? Uh if they're somewhere else, it's the only thing that changes is like it's not for the for the benefit of you know JP Morgan, but it's helping somebody why, you know, you can go from point A to point B. What are the things that you know maybe you should be doing more and things that you should be doing less uh to make you more effective? Uh, but it's all about people need to believe in you. And I I do feel very strongly on that how genuine you are, that you really uh mean it, it's not just what's in it for me. And I think that genuine piece, people can see through it, can't they, with if the words and the intention they they don't they don't match. And when it comes to um uh to feedback, you talked about you know real-time being genuine. I think there can be an aversion uh at at any level where people feel challenged by giving the like the unvarnished truth of fear of how it may land. How would how what are the tip or the strategies that you would advise people when you're giving that real-time feedback when it's more of the constructive nature? Yeah, listen, first of all, I do think it's much, much easier to do it real time than to wait until, for example, the end of the year or whatever people do uh the end of the quarter, because it has more of an impact, people can see it right away, and it's less threatening. It's it's not like you know, you're giving it to me because with the intention of, you know, either I won't get paid X or I won't get promoted and all these. So it's it's in uh in my view, that's the most frankly powerful uh uh way to do it. And I think, you know, as long as you always do it in a respectful way, too, particularly with things too too developed or to focus on, uh, it is much, much easier to do it, you know, throughout, for example, the year, or whenever you're somebody, or hey, you know, let's have a lunch and let me tell you some of the stuff that you are X not doing, you should be changing it, or you should be doing more of X and less of Y. And I think that is something that as long as you do it now, it requires commitment from your part in my case, you know, um, because you have to you have to be prepared to invest. And I look at that as an an investment rather than an expense of time. You know, you're investing in somebody you you want them to because the more successful they are, the easier it is for my organization, for the team to do well. And you know, if somebody's sitting at a very important job, you know, they're there for a reason because we believe that they are you know capable of doing a lot. And so investing time into that is is the payoff is so significant if you get it right. So, and I would say, you know, it's not an expense or time. I mean, it's and a lot of people will think of my God, you know, I would rather, you know, not be doing this kind of stuff or be doing something else. But I look at that more as an investment uh than an expense. And and the fact that it's real time, uh to your point, it has that great impact because people can contextualize like the the example that you're referencing is is is front of mind for them. Yeah, and I listen, at the end of the day, and and I think it's always a two-way street. I think it's also people should be upon them to also say, you know, hey, you know, from time to time, and I know that many people that you mentor and all that, they will, you know, call me and say, you know, I would like to have lunch with you, I wouldn't would like to get your guidance or advice. Absolutely, you know, and for me that's you know, I go back to the investment part. And you know, it is an investment that you get it right, the payoff is multiple times the return on investments, you know. And I mean, payoff is for the organization, the results, and and it's not a one-off, but it's you know, compounds over time, right? If people learn and do it, so that's my take on it. And and out of interest, what's a piece of feedback you've been given about yourself that's kind of stuck with you over the years? Well, listen, you know, I have gotten many, many over the years, right? From you know, uh early years and even you know, the later years, probably I spent too much time on people, you know, sometimes uh just cut it off and don't give them you know too much the benefit of the doubt. Uh, which you know is probably fair in some cases, but you know, if that's you know, where do you go back and say, well, it's only three months, it's only one year and all that. Uh so that would be one that people would say to me, you know, uh uh something that should have done more. Uh two is also uh, you know, in my sort of like deliberation or sometimes trying to get people, you know, like everybody, you know, takes everybody's input that is the relevant people input. I mean, you know, take the two cents into the whatever decision that some people might say, well, it takes too long, you know, we should just go and you know, that tends to be, and it again, you know, it's always a judgment, right? It could be people who feel like I had a right, and let's go, let's not wait anymore, let's just, you know, push for it. So those would be some uh feedback that is you know relevant, but it's at the end of the day, you know, as I always you know say to myself, you know, I did this for so long, it's hard to change the stripes in a tiger, right? This is what works for me. And uh and you know, it was it was good, and you know, but it's you know, always learning. You know, for me was always you know, everything every year there was something new to learn. And and I know in some of our conversations we've talked about the importance of that trusted tribe and having truth tellers. It could be peers, family, friends, but people who you can count on in those moments who will also shoot straight. They'll they'll they'll tell you, they'll tell you kind of what it is and how it is. Yeah, I mean, listen, there was always people uh which I you know appreciate and you know that worked for me or were peers. A lot of them were people that work for me, and they would say, hey, you know, you should be doing X more of these, or you're giving too much the benefit of the doubt to somebody else. Uh uh and that was, you know, always took it, you know, um, you know, to heart because it was genuine and and it was without any, you can make the case that, hey, you know, I could have just taken the decision, like, oh my God, you know, I'm the boss, and you know, I'm gonna do, I'm going to do whatever I want. Uh, but that is frankly a blessing to have people like that that along the way they're willing to um share with you and give you feedback uh what I will call it the the good, the bad, and the ugly, you know, like the real uh the stuff that you need to focus on. Uh and again, the more real time you get it, the more valuable it is, in my opinion. I 100% agree with you there. And a minute ago, you were you referenced about kind of bad behavior. And I think all organizations, you know, have a number of toxic people and they're all poor performers. How do you manage those people? Well, listen, I I think in every organization you will have some people that would not be everybody's cup of tea, right? So it would be a very uh, you know, it's not my style and all that. But you need all kinds of people in an organization. You know, if everybody was the same, then you know, you'll get the same kind of like results all the time. It wouldn't be, you know, the one who says, oh my God, we should be investing something else, or we should be pursuing another opportunity. How you talk to them, how you can make them understand, you know, like this is the stuff that you shouldn't do, or put parameters in terms of, you know, the the limits. Uh, and I also will say to people, you know, listen, uh, the organization either if you continue to be a jerk, either the organization will push you out or you will push yourself out. I mean, there's, you know, you take your whatever decision you want, time will come. And listen, there's always people that you say, you know, I probably should have done more on this stuff. Uh, but that's always kind of like sort of like second guessing because you know they did have some positives. People are not in the system just because they only had negatives. They do have some positives. The question is, when do the negatives outweigh so much the positives that is so detrimental to the organization and to the people? Yeah, I think that's so it's it's and and uh one of the things you've mentioned to me before as well is about just being fair and equitable, like having that as the kind of the you know, every time you approach these conversations, coming from a place of making, you know, am I being fair? Am I being equitable? Yeah, and and listen, that is the the the thing that for me, as long as I always felt I can make decisions, it was always with that intention. It was never, you know, I have an angle or this is good for me, but it's not good for them. It's always something that I could feel like I put my head in my pillow at night and feel like I did the right thing, or wake up in the morning, you know, I did it, you know, on principles. I mean, there wasn't anything that was uh uh uh you know my own selfish interests or somebody's you know agendas. Yeah, but it it's uh it there's I I I hear listening to you there, it's about you know being clear on your values and making sure your decisions, your choices, your behaviors, there's there's an alignment there with your values in life. Yeah, and listen, there's always going to be, again, in an organization, you know, you have everything, right? I mean, these organizations are so large, you have everything, you know. I mean, you know, from you know, all kinds of styles of people and all kinds of resources and all that. So the question is, it's like a society. How do you make you know the most out of it? How do you get the most out of people, the positive side, and focus on that? And how do you, you know, you know, focus or make them address some of the you know the negative energy or the negative reinforcers that people have? Uh, but to sort of say, you know what, we're only going to hire everybody who has these particular attributes. I mean, I don't think it would be similar to we're only going to hire certain types of people who are, you know, whatever, white males, or who only went to these types of schools, and it will be the same to me. So it's how do you get an organization that is an amalgamation of different types of skills, talents, uh, and that collectively you get the best out of everybody? Yeah. And to your and to your point, if you know, if there are people who have um uh persistent bad behavior, either you know they will it's about them self-selecting out or they will be pushed. And that's been my experience over the years. Uh at the end of the day, you know, either one of the two will happen. Yeah. And and when we first met, um yeah, I came and had uh did a talk to your team and a number of your kind of CDM at bankers. And I imagine with that group, there's a lot, there's a lot of stallions in the room, there could be big egos. And so how do you manage, how do you manage those big egos? Well, listen, I think it's uh, you know, uh, I used to joke about that being in my business. Sometimes it's managing like a like a talent agency, you know, like it's everybody's like the talent and divas and stallions, and you talked about it, but it's always back to uh relating to each individual on uh you know what they can do well, uh what they can bring to the table, and and sort of like you know, allowing them to be what they are, as long as, you know, as I said, there's some parameters, you know, you can go from point A to point F. And you know, within that, you can go in and there's no electric fence, there is, you know, issues that you get zapp. Uh and you need all that, you know, and and I work with all of them, treated everybody with respect. That should be the number one cynic one on first and foremost. Everybody should be treated with respect, it doesn't matter who they are. Uh, and people know that that's the case, and you know, I don't have any intentions, or I didn't have an intention to hurt anybody other than advance everybody's careers, and you know, because if we do it and we are collectively better, we will be the number one, and we be the competitor that everybody wants to beat. And and I think that's where you focus on. Uh, but you know, listen, it is an issue where uh all people with different skills and egos and everybody's, you know, as I said, it's like um, you know, talent agency or sports, you know, everybody's like the everybody's the the the number one, you know, and but collectively focus on each like you number one, but you know, collectively we are trying to get the most out of all of you. Uh and and that's what I did. I mean, people say to me, you can relate to people. Well, I can relate to everybody, because as long as you treat everybody as a human being, like you know, there is this is no star system, there is, you know, I am like you, you're like me, and by the way, he or she's like the two of us. And so as long as you treat everybody with respect, and uh I think it's much easier to do that. And and how do you it that how do you create that collegianism or the trust between them? You know, when you've got these big egos, you know, but they they come together as a as a leadership team, how do you create you know that connection between them? Well, listen, I mean you try to, they would never be perfect, right? Because, you know, it's frankly, if anybody tells you at the end of the day, everybody uh gets along and it's kumbaya, I think they're crazy. Uh, but that's where I go back to, you know, I would what should be the strategy? Okay, you have an input here, she has an input, he has an input, and we all go there. So everybody knows uh that's what we're trying to do. That's why the whole discussion of the after the meeting discussion is, in my opinion, totally unacceptable. Because then you create the sense that somebody has the most influential or you know, can go behind the scenes and change it. But if we do it over there, everybody knows that at the end of the day, you know, we're all in the same playing field here, right? So your your input, her input is, you know, as equally valuable, and we're gonna go and execute based on what we said. And as I said, you know, I'm the GP, uh, but I'm only 51%. We're all on the same uh, you know, boat here. Uh, and that's how you can create this sense is never going to be perfection because you know what, these are humans. Everybody, there's always going to be somebody who he or she believes, like, you know, I'm I'm the one, I'm flawless, I invented this whole thing. I should be my my decision only, but it's how do you get, and and that's always going to be the case, you know, in any organization. I don't think you can get everybody to sort of feel like, oh my God, you know, we all aligned 100%. But it's how why you got to that decision, your input was came into this, and yes, part of it was, I used to tell people, you know, you have a vote, but when we come to the decision, we all agree you have no veto. Okay. Everybody has a vote. But when we go out, and by the way, we all agree it, we all debate it, we all these there's no veto. And that strikes me as being the the conversation happens in the room, but when we leave the room, there's an alignment. We are all, you use the boat analogy, we're all rowing in the same direction, same mission, same vision, same strategy. 100%. 100%. And what comes up for me is you know, you've led uh many uh you know best performing teams who are the best of the best. How do you stay the best of the best? Like what's the mindset? Because uh in order that people don't dip into complacency. Well, listen, I think what can kill a team when they're doing so well or any organization is complacency or arrogance. If you become arrogant, they're both equal. Uh, you know, both of them. So it's it's like, you know, how do you go and you know, when you are performing at the top, that's where it's more important to be brutally honest. What are the things that are not working? And then be granular. Go into the issues that are not working. And, you know, try to sugarcoat issues uh is the worst you can do, you know, because you know, you can say, hey, you know, we're not doing as well in technology M ⁇ A, these are the reasons why. And we can come out with all different reasons why, uh, but getting into the granularity is what is important, particularly when you are performing well. Uh because the tendency is to sort of like, you know, high fives, everything is wonderful, everything is great. And you know, everything is possible as long as you can, you know, go and say, hey, we are not doing as well in that particular region or in that particular sector now. What are the reasons for for it? And then you go in and then you diagnose the issue, and then you come out with a plan and execution, and that's how you keep improving. So, you know, it keeps moving and and um getting yourself better, getting the most out of each individual and the organization as a whole. Uh Lance Ogler, who I know we both know well, he talks about raising the bar. That's one of his mantras, you know, everyday, how do we get better? And he he talks about incrementalism. It's it's it's it's you know, it's those small compounding things that that that to improve to have greater influence and impact. And then he talks about widening the gap, because when you are that number one, it's it's right, you know, raise the bar and then widen the gap. And I really liked his analogy on that. Yeah, I mean it's the same, you know, like it's it's like, you know, like JP Morgan is whatever number one financial institution, but there's areas where we're not number one, you know, or the CIB, we were, you know, green, top three in almost every box. But there would always be five or six that we were red or amber. Why? What are we going to do? Now, some of them is intentional because we say if we do that, whatever, you know, we didn't want to be there for whatever reasons. That's a very different decision. You know, actually, that's great. We're executing according to our plan, but it's really the ones like that's not really what we would like. What do we need to do? Is that incremental? And then you do it and you do it consistently and have a plan back to the prioritizations. You know, what are the things that you are going to be focusing on? And, you know, the priorities, and uh, and that's where the incrementalism comes, and that's how you get better. You know, you keep uh raising the bar. And to your point, having a plan, because I think often people can come away, there can be great strategies, great words on paper, but then how are we going to execute? What's the plan? How are we going to measure ourselves against that execution panel? Where are we going to course correct? You know, if we need, you know, because sometimes when more data becomes available, it's like actually we need to go to that plan B. 100%. And and that's where, you know what, that's why this whole thing is what's the what is it that we're trying to do? How are we going to do it? And then how are we going to measure it? See, if you have no ability to measure it, then it's it's a lot of waste of time, right? I mean, it's is how are we going to say yes, it's working or it's not working, and on a regular basis, not like you know, a year or two years from now, but how are we going to be are we doing what we said? Oh, we don't have the right bankers in that particular sector or region or country, whatever. Okay, let's go do it. Okay, after we do that, what are we doing? And then it takes time, and okay, so but you have something that you can measure and see the progress. Uh, and and that's you know, how we did it. And I mean, obviously, it wasn't just me, it was the whole system and the organization who were focusing on that. There's a great saying, what gets measured improves, because it's then it's drawing attention to you know what are the areas we need to spend more time, energy, and focus on. Yeah, and particularly, you know, what the tendencies, many times the organizations that try to sugarcoat the issues hide. And that's why the granularity, these Lance's comment about incrementalism, what is the things? And go as granular as you can and then measure, because you know, it's it's very easy to sort of like you know, high sometimes issues uh when particularly when you're successful, or when you have some businesses that are doing so great, you know. I mean, people say, Well, you're number one. I mean, you know, yeah, but we're not number one in X, Y, and Z. Why? And and so that's why I think it's important that you become you are honest, and I when I can be honest, brutally honest about the issues, uh, and then most importantly, diagnosing the issues and how you're going to go about fixing them. People all understand back to the comments from the beginning. That's the mission, that's how we're gonna do it. We're all on the same page and on the same book. I I've heard a client, um, they use the word the CRO is the chief repetition officer, and and someone says, leaders, you need to be that repetitioner. This is the strategy, this is the mission, so everyone in the organization, irrespective of what level, can you know can speak to the overarching strategy of the firm. Yep, yeah, that's exactly the same point. And it you we we used you shared the word or use the word impact, and um there was a saying that you had that uh your impact should be like dipping your hand in water. Can you share a little bit more about that saying? Well, you know, that's really uh comes from a very famous poem that I said your impact, uh, you know, when you leave, I mean the example is, you know, put your hand in a bucket of water, you can make all the noise and take your hand out, and then very quickly you see how the water is at the same level that was before. So that's the way you know the organization should be. So, and I told my team when I left, I said, you know, I can make whatever noise, I can make whatever I want, but this is the way to see it. You guys are all capable, this is a fantastic organization, and it's um this, and if it's not X, somebody else will rise to the occasion. Uh, but that was the that's the the intention. And it's more to be like, it's more to how do you control your own ego, you know, and because if you think you are, you know, the want, I mean, that's a good example, like you know, just see how quickly the water goes back to its level. You might just take yourself and make a lot of you know noise and move it around, uh, but that's the comment of it. And and when you think about the you know, your your retirement, how how did you think about succession? How far in advance before you you uh left were you thinking about succession? How did you identify your successes? Well, listen, I obviously we thought about it over the years, and there were many plans. I mean, it was it would not be just one uh many plans, and and it wasn't just me, obviously, there were other people in the organization who uh have uh uh an input on that. Uh, and you know, over time it will be how people will come in and and do it. Uh, and listen, you know, I always say to people like, you can have all kinds of plans and you can have everything that you think you will be the right solution, but it won't be until you're there. It's no different than sometimes, you know, when people say, Well, why did you put that person in that job or why she got that one? I say, Well, because you know, you will you wouldn't know until they get on the seat and then they do it. Uh, I'm sure you hear a lot of people say, Well, Carlos elevated many people or promoted people who, you know, they didn't think they were either, you know, whatever, you know, a woman or somebody, you know, diverse background or whatever. And my view is unless we do it, we will never know. Uh, so you know, we went through all that, and you know, I always tell people like DNA hasn't been reinvented yet, so there will not be another Carlos Fernandez. Uh, to the best of my knowledge. Maybe you can say some attributes or maybe some of the weaknesses and all these, but whoever is in there is gonna have to do their own, you know, build their own organization and do it, shape it the way they think they want to be shaped. But whether they're good leaders, that's going to be the question, and the organization will judge over time. Uh, but you know, succession is something that we thought about it, we think about it, and there's many different permutations and all that. But not until you go into the you can have a strategy in the in the local room, but not until you go into the field, you see whether it did work or not. Yeah. And and uh I'd love to to move over to to Jamie now because you've worked with him for many, many years. You're you know highly regarded as being you know a consigliary and ally to him. And and I suppose I'm curious around Wina, what what skills did you learn from him? Um, yeah, what skills do you learn from him? Oh well, listen, I do think you know, Jamie is arguably the best leader of you know all the big corporate leaders, and um, and I was so fortunate that I worked for him for a long time, very close, uh, very closely, I should say. Uh, there are many attributes I could say uh on Jamie, right? Uh, from uh he's the most genuine person that you can see. Jamie is like, you know, uh so uh high on EQ, uh, he can relate to anybody from presidents and Her Majesty the Queen to you know the people at the entrance of JP Morgan, bankers and tellers and all that. So um he's very genuine, and and you know that he's he's himself and he means it and he treats people with respect. Um he is somebody who's always into the details and talking about uh uh uh getting the most out of you, he always you know makes you realize, oh, back to the incrementalism, I can do more, you know, because he would always raise the bar, always. Uh and to the you know the best of the individual and certainly the organization. Um and he's somebody who is very strategic, uh very forward-looking, very visionary. He's always, you know, uh knows every, you know, it's always everything is is never like just a comment, it's like you know, well thought out, well researched. Uh so it's always raising the bar, uh, which is fantastic in a sense that you know what, it gets the most out of me as an individual, but obviously the organization. And there's such, yeah, as I listen to the quality, the high IQ, the you know, into the details, always raising the bar, you know, that visionary piece. And that high EQ, I mean, that came up, it comes up with a lot of people I speak to at JP Morgan when they describe your leadership style. Do you think EQ is something that's um innate? It's kind of part of our DNA, or do you think it's something that can for leaders, it it's something that can be learned? I I think you can learn it. I don't think you you were born with that. Listen, uh yeah, and I used to tell people the more senior you get, the more EQ you need. You didn't get to be an MD, a JP Morgan, or an ED if you didn't have IQ. I mean, these processes are so competitive. You went there as an associate, and so IQ comes as a given. EQ is the biggest challenge, and I think it's more challenging the more senior you get into the organization. Because you need to relate to anybody at different levels, whatever part of the organization. And I go back to you know, people can relate to you, understand. Not because I'm an investment banker or I'm like, you know, um, whatever it is you call It Stallions and all these, but it's that I'm really care when trying to see what's best for the organization for you. And I'm I'm genuine. I am, you know, treating people with respect, talking about Jamie, that's probably one of the greatest attributes of uh Jamie, right? Uh and and people know it, people sense it. You don't have to believe, like, you know, you can talk to talk and say it, but do you walk the talk? Do you really see it? Uh, and I think that those are, in my opinion, the the I mean, the the the things that will make all this EQ. I mean, can you learn it? Yes, can you, but you have to be genuine. The worst you can do, the worst is pretend that you mean it, because if you don't, it will come back to you in space and compound it in interest from the people. So either do it, do it well, or don't do it. Don't pretend. And how how do you think you demonstrate care and respect? Like, how does that how does that show up in action and behavior? There's a lot of respect, but like, you know, you can go from very simple to I disagree with somebody's decision or whatever. I don't go and you know, denigrate them in public or in a meeting, oh my god, you have to stupid. How could you even think about it? You know, do it in a respectful way. That could be one way. Uh, another one could be when somebody's really has some struggles, whether it could be work-related or personal, that you can really make yourself feel like, you know, I I'm calling not for ex, but I'm calling for something else. I'm amazing. You know, you probably heard a lot of people call me and say, you know, you were the only one who called people during COVID. You were the one who called people, whether it was in Spain, whether it was in Europe, whether it was in the US, and how are you doing? How's your family? How is all this? And by the way, we were working all of us like 20, whatever, sometimes crazy hours the first few weeks because you know, everybody was asking us to lend money and these. But you have to be genuine and you know, and and do it, and so people know that it's not just about just the business. All I care for you is because you're getting me results, but it's also I care for you as an individual. Uh, I want the best for you uh in all different aspects, right? Uh, professionally, but also as an individual, as a human being. Uh, and you gotta show that this is humane, you know, like he's it can back to that's probably another attribute I would talk about, Jamie. I mean, he's very humane, you know. I mean don't think that he will, you know, he will make tough decisions that will be very tough, but it's always in a respectful manner, right? And that's how people you show that you care, you know, that you really are more than just another part of the organization, another individual. And by the way, I know you generate a lot of fees and a lot of deals for us, and that's all I care. There has to be more than that. And and you you mentioned you know that during covet and and that it was something that that people referenced you know you picked up the phone your phone is checked in that people okay and and Lance do we mention earlier he speaks to that he carries thank you cards with him so whenever he's on a plane is there's people he wants to acknowledge and thank he'll send them a thank you card and and both those examples are uh they're small things but have such a huge impact on someone feeling seen feeling heard feeling that they you know feeling that they you know that that they matter to an organization yeah well listen and I don't know I mean this is talking about um when you ask about uh can you learn it are you born with it you know I think it's just like I don't know I mean if you know yes it's a commitment of time you know uh yes I could have been you know my God I don't need to spend another half an hour making phone calls or you know to the guys in Europe I gotta do it in the morning because it's their afternoon and the guys on the West Coast I have to do it late in the afternoon here because of the times. But it's the kind of stuff that you know it costs you know and it's not for me it's not like oh my God I'm trying to get myself like people to think I'm doing something like I'm being a great leader or anything. But it's more like it sort of like connects you to the organization and to the individuals in a different way that is you know makes all of us better you know the organization myself the individuals uh and it's stuff that is so simple to do yet a lot of people wouldn't do it right and just like that there's many things you know like you know when people are struggling you know or you know somebody is oh I heard somebody said to me oh you know his whatever his mom is is very ill or you know his wife is having these difficulties and I will always make the time to reach out to those people and do it for example on a regular basis it wasn't just you know the time that it was and that was it forget about it but it was kind of like do it consistently uh but I go back to you have to be genuine if you are not yeah don't even waste your time because uh people can see through that a hundred percent and uh it when you you mentioned um you talked about um uh you know the ability to disagree um and and I I was curious how do you disagree with people without being disagreeable because that's something there with the eq being that was you know being respectful and you know bear in mind we're all in conversations all the time where we all maybe have an alternative view how do you approach those those situations well it's an it depends what kind of situation it's right uh if it's something like oh you know what uh he wants to promote somebody or you know if it's my boss making that decision well I will express my views and I will do it in a you know in a in a forum that is the right forum to sort of say hey you know X or Y and Z I disagree or I agree or I think somebody else should be in that job. So do it in a in a way that sets itself for that. I mean I I will never be a believer of oh my God let me go and protest in public and let me go create this chaos and uh because that's really what you know I want to express myself. I don't think that's in the best interest of the organizations. Now if it's something that is more principles or legal issues of course I will go out more forceful and express why we wouldn't want to do and try to convince people or try to influence people why we need to do a different or why we need to take a different course. And that's how I will do it. I was never a believer and I think it's a terrible for any organization the people that think like I gotta go and start saying to everybody oh I disagree with this oh I disagree with that so the organization knows it I think that's not necessarily good for the organization and it's not good for the individuals including if I was the one doing it because it just creates unnecessary chaos in the organization. Which is never helpful um and and and going back to to Jamie you know who is broadly regarded as one of the best leaders in the world and I I suppose I look at him from the outside in and I I wonder does he have an off switch? Does he you know a lot of leaders they speak to the 24-7 commitment of the roles that they're in does does he have an off switch and if he does what does he hit it with well listen first of all Jamie is uh he's a family man uh that he's off switch he spends a lot of time with his family and he's very committed to his family and his you know kids and his wife uh and he does that he reads a lot uh you know uh you know he's always reading uh he does some his you know walking and all that kind of stuff but Jamie's 247 and always will be and he's good at it and he loves it he thrives on it and when you get the attention and he could be you know he can also whenever we are things or we're doing stuff on moments of a crisis if we have to be there he'll make the time and we all there we don't have to be there for unnecessary just for people to be you know showing like there's something going on uh so he can really he's very good at setting up time and prioritizations excellent you know and but he can he does his stuff and uh does it well and enjoys it you know and Adam just for you what were your off switches again what what is the the fuel that's enabled you through your career to have the well to be able to thrive well listen I would say I mean similar to to that I mean family uh for me is uh you know always prioritizations like you know what I you know need to do and you know I always used to uh tell people every Friday night I will have a date with the same woman I had for you know 40 years now uh my wife uh no matter what whether it's a crisis or not even you know in the Lehman brothers we will have something that afterwards we will meet and dinner uh I run uh that's my you know uh every morning uh before work and I always did it before because uh it's the only way to do it it's always something will come up during the day uh and that to me was the best way to sort of like in many ways plan my days have my own moment do my you know relief and uh and um uh so stuff like that and then you know music I mean I will sit down and listen to music sometimes I have my time and you know I mean obviously I'm a reader and I read whenever I have time on planes and all that and always be my uh things that I will do always you know never fiction always biographies or some kind of you know history books or some you know um current affairs uh but those are the things that will keep me you know uh I can get you know focused on and what do you do your best thinking like where where in terms of where does the ideation come or are there certain places or spaces I mean most of the time when I'm running uh that will be my uh my best you know because I'm you know myself doing it and I'm that's when I you know sort of like makes the the wrong the running less painful or doesn't feel as long and you know as I'm doing through all the kind of stuff of course then I will you know sometimes if I'm in my car to the to the city to my job I will think about stuff there write my notes and all these and and those are the things you know I always was very much focused into um having a very controlled agenda you know uh meaning I would always have my assistant have time in the mornings that I would have enough time for me to uh a respond to any emails or phone calls uh because you know I'm always a believer that you get back to people the same day that they get you uh and I would do that and that would give me also some time to maybe some you know I something that came out that I thought about we should be doing you know write myself or do something about it and I will do the same in the afternoons. So I will you know do that on a consistent basis. And that gave me a lot of ability to really plan my days, my you know weeks because having that flexibility which I never understand when people have you know their agendas packed back to back and you know that you don't even have time to really reflect or think about stuff that you would like to do. So those are things for me that I you know were very good in my um in my career. Very helpful. So it is making making being very protective as you said having your assistant you know block in time so you've got that thinking space um because otherwise I I'm assume the day can just take it and take a course of its own. 100% I'm very much on that and every day in the morning so I could also be responsible and even responsive to people in terms of you know people were looking for me or return whatever emails I needed to get back to and somebody who needed an answer or by the way it could be an emergency or something we have to make these decisions and all that uh so that was always part of my you know controlling my time you know and I think that is probably one of the things that you know is the most precious I think as a you know manager as a leader to have is being able to control your time to be able to do a lot of the stuff that you know uh you have to do throughout the day or the week or whatever. And I'm assuming that also links to prioritization making sure you're in the meetings where you can offer something meaningful you know being very thoughtful around where you know what meetings you attend. So you you're you're you know you're always thinking where's the highest and best use of my time. Yeah and you know I mean to me also those meetings uh uh there's some that obviously I have to be there and you know obviously I will do all my preparation before the meetings and you know I would never understand where people go to meetings with you know getting themselves over there up to speed in the meeting because and I would tell a lot of my management team we go to the meetings to go through the issues and you know whatever issues we have and then we hopefully we out of these we can come out with a solution or a plan how we're gonna get the solution uh but uh you know those are the things that you know back to you talked about time controlling your time and and I think you can do it but it takes your own effort to do it and the idea that you want to be everywhere and people ask you I mean there's some meetings that you don't have to be there or some client pitches you don't it will be great but it's always back to the prioritization you know it's either X or Y. Something has to give uh and I think you know that's where yeah you are the master of your own destiny there. Your own controlling your time in an efficient uh effective manner is is is is critical. And and you spoke about preparation there and Henry Fernandez who we both know well he uses the analogy of a book club he said we wouldn't all arrive at the book club meeting and read chapter one you know you I the expectation is we've all read chapter one so when we're in the meeting then we're we're we're having that discussion rather than we're all at different stages of prep. Yeah I mean this that is to me so so you know critical and is a must for any functioning management team that people do their work. I mean if I could do it you can do it. Yeah I mean the idea well I didn't have the time or I was so busy and you know if I can do it you can do it too. And then it's it goes back to better results right you don't need to have long meetings. If the meeting was scheduled for an hour maybe you get it in 40 minutes or 45 minutes and then you really focus on the the outcomes that you really want to you know come out of the meetings and and you know implement or uh execute on so it is something that is so you know to me must in a functioning management team. It goes back to Henry's point common sense not always common practice i it just I don't think everyone builds in preparation time but it's to your point it's it's important and it it requires you to people to be deliberate and intentional around it. Yeah and and I will tell you I mean that would be my advice for a lot of people who run management teams is you create a discipline where people all at the end of the day you go and you know the time I'm giving you back half an hour or whatever amount of time you can make a lot out of that time. But you know you put in your own time because you're getting an output out of that. I mean make it for all of us more productive and you know I think it's is is something that you know should be a must in every uh management team. I think it speaks to your word respect as well it's being respectful of other people's time uh and there's a there's a level of you know if you're if you haven't prepared that isn't being respectful of of others in the room. 100% 100% I had a couple more questions and they kind of go back to the human side and I know you've got is it three children? Yes three children yes uh what advice do you have you given them over the years if they've been embarking on their own careers? I mean listen I would tell my uh my children uh I have said that to a lot of people and particularly when I used to go talk to the analysts uh the training programs uh what I would say is have a passion and apply yourself to that passion and then I said you know take your job or whatever you do and seriously but don't take yourself too seriously and that's what I told you know and you know with that and I I I would say to them listen adversity will come there's not a question whether you will have it is the question is when and the most important is what you're going to learn out of it. What are the things that you will get and because the best lessons in life is when you get adversity and so that's I would tell them now you say well that's very simple that is so you know ABC that is like you know the motherhood and apple tie but it's it's so true. I mean you know I mean I thought I said you know have a passion whatever it is and apply yourself. You are your own judge you are realize your potential what are the things you need to do and and that you feel satisfied and you know you meant it and you know when I talk about a take your job seriously um don't take yourself too seriously don't let it get to your head I mean success is intoxicating and be careful with it because you know I've seen so many that they let it go to their heads and you know I mean what if you're not the head of the group what if you know the MD so you're always going to define your you know yourself and your accomplishment because of X careful because you know that could always be removed for a lot of different reasons right those those would be some of the uh uh words of advice and with the adversity piece there's many entrepreneurs that I've you know read their biographies and they talk about the lessons learned come from the biggest failures it's not from the successes but it's those challenging times that where you really learn who you are as a person as well. Yeah I mean listen I I think adversity is I mean we all have it in different ways shapes forms uh and the question is how do you deal with it when you get it and then ongoing what kind of lessons do you learn from it? And and the best lessons in life or businesses is when you get adversity. People are oh my god I wasn't ready for this crisis oh my god we weren't ready for what if you know we weren't ready for X and then how you go out and and I think you know and on an individual basis obviously everybody does their own you know reassessment of oh my god I should have thought about that I should have done it different and whatever it is and and I think that's um to me the the the thing is like the worst you can do is deny it or pretend it doesn't exist uh and then you go and what should I do? What should I go do a mark-to-market reassessment why and then what should I be doing next and think about what else what if next time something else or so those would be very you know simple basic I would say you know trainings but hugely practical as well and if you master those then life is gonna work out pretty well for you 100% and by the way and even like that it might not work 100% but it will be much much easier to deal with than you know just throw up your arms and it's always frustration and you know uh you didn't get what you wanted. And I think the adversity piece is what's the mindset you choose because you've all you're always you're always in choice in terms of how you approach those situations. Yeah 100% and my last question is um if we put your ourselves in the shoes of your parents and then looking at you what do you think they're most proud of well listen I think uh a parent uh they're still alive you know my dad is will be uh 97 uh this year and my mom is 87. I mean I think they just like you know if they're proud of what I have done you know what I accomplished um they will say you know you never change you're still the same that when you were 17 16 you know you were a very driven very focused in school always you know applying yourself uh what it was uh treating people the same way you know as you started getting growing elevating the way you treated people back then the way you treat people today so those are the things that they will say you know like um you know we're very proud of what you've done but you know most importantly that you never change you know you're still the same uh and that's probably what they will tell you if you ask them well that's a wonderful the fact there's that consistency you you stay true to who you are yeah uh you know that has been one of my um things I always I joke to people like if you ever want to do a due diligence on me all they have to do is pick up a phone and call somebody at JP Morgan or 350,000 of people who left JP Morgan because I mean there's many Carlos Fernandes at JP Morgan as you can imagine is a pretty common name but everybody oh Carlos I said you know I I just did the same everywhere all the time you know and the way I behave myself 20 years ago is the same way it was 15 years ago 10 years ago five years ago and today you know and that's the way it will be and for me makes me feel realized it's great you know and uh could I have done things different? Of course there's always stuff that I should have done different and all these but you know people ask me now um would you have done the same thing you did um JP Morgan I said if I was 22 years old today I would be doing exactly what I did and I will not change one bit because I mean like everybody said you wouldn't have changed anything I said you know what because I said you that's like traders when they have a position the only thing it can go up this never can go the other way I said you know that's what worked for me and why would I change it you know I mean everybody wants to pick like you know it's like you gotta go back and and uh change X change Y and remind yourself of that beautiful movie It's a wonderful life you know this is what you have this is the hand you got this is what you made and you made the most out of it and I will do the same if I was 22 hopefully we'll have the same you know path with you know met with many many wonderful people bosses peers people that work with me competitors clients people like you and I will take the same thing you know many times over what a wonder there's there's a great book and um on the regret you know people when they get to their you know 90s and hundreds what they regret in life and many people have many regrets but listening to you there's just such a a wonder in terms of you've lived a life with intention you've been the conscious creator of your life and there's there's no regrets and what a wonderful place to be in. Yeah well listen I mean this is where for me when I was my retirement and my whole rationale and all that was you know first of all every story has an end whether it's a book whether it's a movie whether it's a career and all that and I said I wanted to have my own ending to make the best ending to the story. And I also think you know that you know I've never been on a deathbed myself but one day when I am I can imagine that people at that time don't themselves they would say well I wish I would have done another IPO I wish I would have done another M ⁇ A I wish I would have done another three to X but it would be you know I wish I would have done more with my family and all that and for me it will be did I make a difference in this life and I would like to say to myself yes I did either by helping like JP Morgan be a better place you know helping a lot of people along the way you know becoming better realizing their successes uh or their potential that you know a family that was you know good children develop and and you know done well good to society and all that that would be my you know sort of like when I'm in that moment and those are the questions that I will ask myself and those are the answers I will give. So you you have made a difference and you've made a difference to me personally I've I've I can't thank you enough for all the time you spent with me as you input it into the book and I've as I've shared with you before I've leave every conversation up level energized a different person for hearing your lessons because those sound bites are the things that are really ignite and move me into action and have taken me on completely different pathways. So thank you for that. Pleasure thank you Carlos this is wonderful you were so incredible as I knew you would be and that you've just got so many you've just got such a beautiful way of uh articulating your thoughts and your stories and your lessons in a way that's just it's so palatable and easy to connect to that it's very relatable. Happy that I was able to do it for you and uh looking forward to it and I know you're gonna have many others and uh but you know this was great. Thank you very much for asking me to do it. Well no thank you for making time because it really means a lot. Thank you.